Rather than a post, I pose a question. Over the last month, who has been the better performer: Kevin Rudd or Tony Abbott?
This isn’t a question about Labor versus Liberal, who the polls tell us are fairly even, but Rudd versus Abbott.
In that regards the polls tell us that Rudd has taken the points. No doubt he is more popular with the electorate that many of us, including myself, gave him credit for. Over the last month we’ve been given the opportunity to once again see how he performs as a Prime Minister, but more importantly, if he is performing well enough to be given the chance to lead us again after September (or whenever the election is held).
The man he is up against, Tony Abbott, in my opinion looks rattled. He has just as much chance of winning the election as Rudd has, but leading into the election he simply hasn’t look prime minister material. He looks reactive, rather than proactive. For example, his latest border protection plan – the one with the silly name that currently escapes me – really comes across as a ‘back of the envelope policy’.
But I digress. Back to the question: Who looks the best going into the election? Kevin Rudd or Tony Abbott?
I think your assessment bears out.
Abbott’s tactic of prescription strength opposition worked against Gillard who was represented as politically hapless and untrustworthy.
Less so against Rudd. Rudd gives the impression of being the policy focussed wonk who wants to rise above partisan division. Party reform, changes to the carbon pricing regime, the PNG “solution” etc all make him seem electable when founded on his (unfathomable?) popularity with the electorate.
By contrast Abbott now seems like a political vandal committed to bringing his own selfish ends by employing corrosive tactics, with scant policy proposals.
Agree with Leftymatt.
Agree with both above.
Abbott has never looked like leadership material let alone PM material.
His personal polls, especially on leadership qualities, have always been abysmally low and have been the lowest for any opposition leader.
If it weren’t for the MSM and his minders continually propping him up and covering for his long string of brain farts and stuff ups he would have been gone a long time ago. On top of all of his character flaws and failures he’s but a one trick pony. All he knows is no.
Rudd is self serving everything is for Kevin Michael Rudd.
It is the same dud team minus those who refused to serve in a Rudd Ministry.
That’s all rather sad.
Lets see how things go once the Election is finally called.
ps lets be very clear the PNG Solution will not work
“”Rudd is self serving everything is for Kevin Michael Rudd.”
That is soo true. The sad fact is that a large proportion of the Australian population will vote for a psychopath like Kevin Rudd. It says a lot about 50% of the Australian population.
And on cue Abbott is proven a character flaw by the standard of supporters that need to constantly step in to prop him up and unconvincingly attempt to run diversions.
The proof of just how bad Abbott is as a leader lies in his mindless adorers being unable to detail why he would make a good PM outside of “he’s not Gillard”. I guess they will rack their brains, think hard on it for a long while and now come up with “he’s not Rudd.”
Well we have Abbott, today, admitting he has no education policy. He will allow the Better Schools to run for twelve months, then decide what to do.
He has said he will not compile with the Budget Honesty, that Costello set up. Has added that he will not use Treasury figures, as he does not trust them.
No, I do not believe that Abbott looks good at all. I
I am half inclined to back Rudd going to mid October for the election, even though it means, I think two more weeks of parliament a sitting.
The special Bali Group meeting, the GO2 and the sitting of the UN, leading to Australia taking up it;s seat, all occur before this,
“No, I do not believe that Abbott looks good at all.”
Who gives a stuff what you think. Kevin Rudd is a psychopath. And you will vote for someone like that to the detriment of all the other people who have to live in this country.
The ALP is a corrupt and immoral political party elected by corrupt and immoral people.
Of course PNG solution just might not work. Well Abbott is working very hard to ensure it does not. Abbott is the best friend, the people smugglers have.
Abbott has never looked like foreman material, even against a ‘mere female’. He was deluded into thinking he had Gillard’s measure. He’s looking unsteady against Rudd, probably because he knows he has a fight on his hands.
And all of a sudden he’s finding he has to come up with some policies and its evident it has him rattled.
Fixed for you kneel
“Abbott is the best friend, the people smugglers have.”</u>
And with comments like that you people wonder why i am so anti Labor.
You lot started all this back in 2008 when you dismantled Howards Pacific Solution.
And everybody who voted Labor in 2007 is responsible for what is happening.
What a dishonest and immoral people are Labor supporters.
Why not go further back kneel, John Howard and Peter Reith lying about the children overboard, you are truly pathetic.
Neil, do you really believe that actions taken back in 2008 has anything to do with the situation today.
Whether Rudd was to blame then, has nothing to do with today. The situation world wide has changed dramatically. One cannot blot out three or six years. The same goes for Rudd as well.
Pity they do not go back to the post Vietnam war. Now there was a scheme that did indeed work. I believe would do so today.
In fact, it will only when we reach that point, will things change.
“Neil, do you really believe that actions taken back in 2008 has anything to do with the situation today.”
Yep i do. Absolutely. And everyone who voted for Rudd in 2007 is responsible for what is now happening.
That is you lot.
Neil, why?. Most of what Howard did has been put back in place, in a harsher form, and has not worked. Wonder why that is?
Could not have anything to do with the numbers seeking asylum has grown and are more desperate.
Could not have been that there was a reduction in numbers pre 2008.
Do you really believe turning back boats will make a difference? If so, why?
The actions taken By Howard and Reith on the children overboard have everything to do with today as well, THEY LIED TO THE AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC.
“Wonder why that is?”
Because Labor does not know anything. Some of what Howard did was harsh but some was bluff.
People smugglers laugh at Labor. Rudd is the best friend they have ever had. Meanwhile refugees in camps are denied a place because economic refugees have money.
Furthermore Labor is too stupid to know what to do.
To me, I think Abbott is coming across a someone trying not to look worried, but looking a bit worried.
Neil, they must grow a lot of pot up your way. You’re definitely smoking it.
Liealot is an abysmal failure whichever way you look at him. “Policies” limited to 3 or 4 word slogans. A rubbish brochure which even kindy kids would sneer at, masquerading as a detailed policy document.
By any measure, his lack of success is spectacular. His barrackers will crow that he defeated Julia Gillard. I beg to differ.
Julia Gillard not only had the full weight of the msm ranged against her, but also had to contend with treachery within her own ranks.
They laid siege against her for three remorseless, unrelenting years, until bloodied but unbowed she left the field. It took an ocean of misogyny, invective, lies, smear, misrepresentation and FUD by her gutless foes to bring about her demise.
And during this unprincipled assault, neither Liealot nor The Termite showed any leadership at all. More like thugs and bullies waiting with their sniggering gang members to ambush their lone victim. Swaggering cowards, all of them.
As to performances, The Termite is clearly an Oscar contender; Liealot is in line for the Golden Raspberry Award.
In 2009, Liealot seemed to have The Termite on the ropes, but it appears that 3 years away from the limelight he craves, has enabled The Termite to study his nemesis and overcome him.
Liealot is dancing to The Termite’s tune and he (or should I say Credlin) has no answer. Liealot looked fine with the msm in its entirety and The Termite and his traitors propping him up-without them airbrushing away his corrupt ineptitude, incompetence, mendacity and lack of ability, he’s exposed for the empty vessel he is.
Stay tuned for more Mark Riley moments, more fleeing from journos like Bridie Jabour and meltdowns. I look forward to it with interest.
ME, the barrackers STILL haven’t provided a single sentence to support their claims that Liealot is PM material.
Let’s face it, he couldn’t even persuade 3 Independent MPs who should be his natural supporters, to give him the nod for residency in the Lodge.
After all, Windsor and Oakeshott were members of the Nationals for a time and Wilkie had sought Liars’ endorsement for a seat in Tasmania.
But instead of questioning Liealot’s inability to garner their support, they chose to attack, threaten, smear, vilify and lie about the Independents. Way to go, cretins.
Abbott is scared shitless. Just look at his face.
Kneel, its the liberals who know nothing, look at Hockey today, he does not even trust the Treasury Dept, so if the LNP get in, who are they going to to run the country, to two accountants who did the last election books, LOL LOL LOL LOL
Roswell, I don’t think even the best nurtured plant could possibly have the ability to turn people into cretins. I’m afraid it’s congenital, possibly exacerbated by heavy smoking.
High Court decisions changed things dramatically too 😉
Neil, Why was Mr Howard spending about $500 million extending the Christmas Island detention centre in 2007?
Neil, I must say, your answers are enlightening. Not sure what they are enlightening of.
“he does not even trust the Treasury Dept”
Neither do I. Totally corrupted by Labor. Please tell me when the last time Treasury got a forecast correct?? They have been forecasting a budget surplus for years but it never happens.
Neil, that is exactly what they are, forecasts. If everything stays the same, when the forecast is made, they will be the same.
Trouble is, in real life, there are no crystal balls, so forecasts, especially long range, come in on the numbers given.
It is nothing to do with always being wrong. No one predicted the GFC.
Treasury predictions are no more that what might be. In fact, I suspect, they never come in as predicted.
One should ask, why is so much importance is put on them.
That is not the same, as saying we want a surplus or deficit. One looks at the figures at the time, and makes whatever adjustment is necessary.
Jane….could not have said it better myself. What fools they were ………they overplayed their hand and did not even have a fall back position should their relentless bullying and KRudd’s treachery succeed. They deserve to lose…….I only wish KRudd deserved to win ! I will vote Labor for two reasons ……firstly to protect the legacy of Julia and those wonderful loyal colleagues ( plus Tony W and Rob O )
Secondly ……..because the alternative is too ghastly to contemplate. However, I will never respect Rudd again.
“I will vote Labor for two reasons”
No this is not correct. You will always vote Labor no matter how corrupt and immoral they are and no matter what damage they do to Australia and the people who live here.
Another reason Abbott is such a terrible leader is his double standards, his blatant hypocrisy if you like.
He has had a go at the PM several times for supposedly not consulting, but from his brain fart PPL to now his proposed military action against asylum seekers Abbott rarely consults.
Then he lies about it. Only Howard with 41 major lies was a greater liar than Abbott according to Laurie Oaks, but Abbott is not only rapidly catching Howard but will outdo Fraser, who has been Australia’s greatest liar as leader.
By the way the Liberals out lie Labor on major items 8:1. Laurie Oaks said he has all the information and facts, and may get a book together on it one day.
Neil…..I think you may be projecting your own commitment to a “corrupt immoral party” onto me
. Actually, I have voted for the Greens in the past……and the day may come when I do again. I doubt you’ll ever vote anything but LNP.
Poor old Kneel is unhingeing and projecting more furiously than a Cinema 8!
The Liars are on the way out for another three deserved years in purgatory. Happy days.
The question is “Who looks better?”, and you can always tell when the right wing nut-jobs are worried, cos they get really shrill, and the only thing they’ve got is Rudd is really bad, nothing about what’s good about Abbott cos when it comes to Abbott… They got nothin’!
As the title of my latest post says “A National emergency, declared by a National embarrassment, supported by a National disgrace.” 😀 and the truth is the whole of the LNP and their supporters are a National JOKE. 😯
Neil, could you pass this message on to your ‘minder’ ..” We want the old Neil back, this ‘new one’ is not up to scratch 😦 … he has a tad to much Scaper-ish-ism about him…. I am sorry, …but he has to go ”
Sorry ‘new’ Neil, I hope I don’t get you sacked 😦 ……. no, really !!!! 😀
I;m not quite sure what new Neil has been smoking…… I mean, how do you smoke misdirection, misinformation, seeds of doubt, out ‘n out lie’s and *look over there(s) * ❓
…… “little lone” the amount of paper’s one would need for that little number 😀
well we all know what a complete idiot Abbott is, and it appears his supporters are also !
Agree with you lovo, he is sounding to much like scaper. yuk !
Rudd looks like the five year old who’s been dressed by his blind uncle. I can’t imagine lasting through an election campaign which will involve round the clock Rudd-isms with speeches worthy of a year 10 debating team. When Abbott stammers and trips over his tongue there’s at least some relief from the mean-spiritedness and narcissism. What we have witnessed from both leaders is like some descent into hell. The bald ambition on show by both these men will take some beating.
Rudd has shown total disregard for the long term good of PNG.
I call it ‘Dollar Diplomacy’. There was no consultation on this one.
The facts are we have 1/3 of the previous Labor Ministers resign because they
Refused to work for Rudd. They know he has not changed. Then there were
A couple of others whose resignation Rudd would not accept because the
Ministry would be too lightweight. Says it all for chaos in Canberra.
One person cannot turn around this shambolic Labor Party , they need to
regroup , reinvigorate and refocus from the opposition benches. They would be
better off for it in the long term.Time to root out some of the bad , the corruption
and the cronyism so rife. That is why the grassroots members are so angry.
Rudds survival is very limited even in the short term and because he is so hated by
his own party.
🙄 Voyager Neil does projection accompli….. 🙄
Please do remember Neil…. V.S. ….. V.B.S.. woteva 😉 …… you have backed Tony for PM….. please do remember that ( * thumb to nose with finger undulations* ) 😛
HAHAHAHA ……. ain’t it grand how Karma has turned Tony into a ‘lefty’s’ BFF. 😆
The hypocrisy of the Abbott adulators is apparent in their fervour to go on and on about a single lie that wasn’t a lie whilst ignoring major lie after major lie from Abbott.
If telling the truth for the leader of the country is so important to them why are they so ardently adulating Abbott who avidly prevaricates on major issues of importance in just about every instance. This is his latest effort.
Abbott stated that since Rudd took office, “Over 48,000 people have arrived on almost 800 illegal boats”
That’s the total number since 1975, not withstanding they aren’t illegal as he and Morrison keep stating even after they are pulled up on it and accede that point.
He then went on to say that since 2008, “more than 1000 people have perished at sea.”
According to the data during Howard’s Pacific Solution there were 746 reported deaths.
363 died at sea.
350 were presumed dead at sea (listed as missing at sea)
22 died in detention, most suicide.
11 returned to country of origin were murdered on their return.
Between 2008 and July 2013
877 have reportedly died.
15 died of natural causes or suicide in detention.
862 died trying to reach Australia’s mainland.
This place reminds me of Lord of the Flies, the conga line of agreement at the top of the comments is classic echo chamber stuff.
Abbott is not rattled by Rudd, he has sat back and let Rudd make mistakes, then pounced. The FBT thing was Rudd’s first blunder and his Devil’s Island solution is shaping up to be a total failure. Up to last night, 1,260 people have turned up by boat in one week. Could be a record.
This election campaign won’t be Rudd verses Abbott, it will be the coalition against Labor. The coalition tactic will be every individual shadow will be challenging their counterparts to expose the dearth of talent that was created by the resignation of the ministers that would not serve under Rudd’s dysfunctional style.
I believe Rudd’s honeymoon is over and the longer he waits, the more votes Labor will lose. But keep the faith as it is most entertaining
The MAJOR flaw with that strategy, is the extreme paucity of talent on the opposition front bench 😆
My god, scaper in projection again. The right wingers form a circle jerk and more often than not scaper is at the start.
Hear, hear scaper.
Spot on scaper.
Totally agree with you scaper etc.
Yet his first line is to have a go at those here for being in agreement.
As to Abbott not being rattled, the only ones stating that are his toadies and the adoring Abbott adulation club.
So Mr. Abbott is going to by pass the treasury for information. They are relying on private and the states for facts. That is I think, they believe that Costello and Grenier are more reliable. I say this, as the Coalition states themselves by pass their treasuries.
It is time for Labor to drop the quest for surpluses, no matter the cost, and come out and say, they are all for responsible handling of the economy, and surpluses will take care of themselves.
It is time for any government, I believe world wide, to find ways of increasing revenues, to provide the infrastructures that are necessary for the economy to grow.
Yes, one much always be careful of wasteful spending, as that only takes from the things that are essential for a civil and prosperous society.
Cutting for cutting sakes, only leads to bigger, not less deficits.
We are a wealthy country, that can manage the so call debt we have.
We also need to to able to tell the difference between debt and investment. Much of Labor’s spending, is in the investment camp. That is money spent, to ensure productivity grows.
During the Howard years, it was investment spending where most of the cuts were made. That and transferring income from the lowest earners in society, to those at the top.
To prosper, a civil society requires good health facilities, that all can afford.
Good education and training, to ensure we have the skills for new technology and industry.
Good communications, which in this century means the best broadband available, for now and the rest of the century.
We also need to lower carbon emissions, in the cheapest and most efficient manner, to ensure that we bring some change in global warming. It appears Australia has already had some success, but much more needs to be done. Needs to be done now, not far off into the future.
What I see as a big p-roblem coming up, that is not being address now, is affordable housing for all. Giving tax and other erebates does not help. only pushes up the cost of buying and renting. What needs to happen, is for the housing stock to grow, and grow fast. I see the only way this can occur, is for governments to be involved. Work well post world war 2. Especially I believe, where there was available cheap finance, to buy the homes. This is the only way to take pressure off. That is to increase housing stock. There must be many modern ways of doing it, as one does not want to go back to the Mt. Druitt and like housing estates. Before that, we had the housing provided, in many suburbs on a smaller scale, that appeared to work. These early homes were quickly sold, and merged into the suburbs around them.
As for the AS, do not see why that should be a big factor in the upcoming elections. We are not in danger of being invaded, and have been able to deal with much bigger problems in the past. All that needs to be done, is for politics to be taken out of the issue.
As for the economy, no matter how much Hockey and his ilk talk it down, we are still traveling well. Still have bankers and experts from overseas, saying how well we are doing. Of course it is not perfect, economies never and cannot be perfect, as they always respond to what is happening elsewhere. There are problems arising that need to be addressed. They are not what Abbott is talking about. If one cannot identify problems. how can they fix them?
Sorry, but I feel better having my rant. I just feel that we need to identify what really needs to be done, and ignore what the pollies want us to think.
Not interested in a personality contest. Our future is too important, to dwell on whether we like one or the other. Does not matter. It is what they are offering, that counts.
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We live in a global system, whether we like it or not. This is true when it comes to the economy, taxation and even work today.
We have Hockey attacking Treasury because predictions they make, are never on target. Ignoring the fact, that this can never occur. One can only make predictions on what occurs today, withing the global economy. There is no way, one can know what will be happening in a week, let alone six months. The treasury predictions must always carry the caveat, that this will occur, if everything stays the same as it is now. Only takes one figure to move, for the whole prediction to be
Good governance demands that the figures are revise regularly, and the government makes the necessary change, to get were they are heading.
Labor has done this. Yes, heading for a surplus, until the figures said this was unachievable, that further cuts, would lead to a bigger deficit, not less.
Not sure were we are now, but I am suspicious of the new drive for surplus, not sure if it is achievable at this time. I suspect, we have a good but fragile economy. One that needs careful nursing, to get us to being a big player in the new Asian century.
I have seen no evidence that the Coalition even see what the upcoming problems are, let alone have any answers. Would feel better, if they resisted on talking down the economy and destroying Labor, and start addressing they reality we live in.
“As for the economy, no matter how much Hockey and his ilk talk it down, we are still traveling well.”
Not sure what your point is We were traveling better in 2007. Still did not stop people voting for a change in govt.
What I find really frightening is that people vote for charisma. So voting for a leader that people like is most important. Whether he has sound policies does not matter.
Rudd proved last time that he was hopeless. His own party got rid of him. They only brought him back because Labor knows that people like him.
Shows you how immoral Labor is. They care more about being re-elected than the state of the country.
Why does Abbott’s face change everyday. Looked younger yesterday, today, the opposite.
Mr. Abbott, why do you want a election now so bad. Are you afraid you will not last to October.
Longreach. Today the slogans are well and truly back. Spending spree back on agenda.
Old method, one slogan, into the next, with no connection.
Yes, nothing but his stale list of slogans.
He does indeed talk, as if someone is feeding him words. Just said sheep herd, and without out pausing, sheep flock. Does not seem normal, Only one interviewer questioning him. Wonder how many are present.
He just reminded us of that other army, the green army.
Still the same voice doing the questioning. Wonder why?
Maybe it is Peta.
Yes, we were travelling better in 2007. That was in the dying days of the biggest global boom ever recorded. Effects intensified domestically by the biggest resources boom in a generation
The the world’s worst downturn since the Great Depression hit. Fortunately, Labor was in office when this happened. We survived the Great Recession in the best shape of any developed economy. Low unemployment, low debt, low interest rates, inflation normal.
I have a theory why the rodent government was voted out at the height of the economic boom.
1) People could sense that the tide was about to go out. They chose Labor as being the better party to have in government in adverse conditions. A choice vindicated with hindsight.
2) The WorkChoices attack on wages and working conditions gave voters a rude awakening. They could sense that a low-wage regime (ala SerfChoices) will send the country backwards, from the first-world pay and working conditions we have come to take for granted, to the third-world conditions which is the SerfChoices objective with its erosion of wages and conditions.
Sadly people’s memory is short, they need regular reinforcement of what the Liberals stand for – demoting Australia to a third world economy based on sweatshop semi-slavery, where a handful of billionaires (and their ‘bought’ government) strut about lording it over the masses of peasants.
“demoting Australia to a third world economy based on sweatshop semi-slavery, where a handful of billionaires (and their ‘bought’ government) strut about lording it over the masses of peasants.”
Do you really believe that crap??
Sadly in today’s political scene, it is the cult of personality which rules rather than the good of the country..or even “what’s in it for me” which was the item which drove many an election.
The thing which Abbott *achieved* during his term as LOTO was to negate policy almost entirely to concentrate on The She. We who are left wing inclined, and this includes swinging votes who intensely dislike Abbott’s bullying tactics have
spentwasted years NOT debating policy but forced into a position of having to defend Ms. Gillard.
Alongside this atmosphere was a situation where the msm almost exclusively chose to just nod along with whatever Tony Abbott said whether or not there was any logic attached to it..and in so very many instances there wasn’t. Who can forget Abbott’s Bat-Phone to the patrol boats or his latest where he is effectively saying that unarmed people should not just be turned around but shot.
The difference is that like it or not, Kevin Rudd is a media personality, the same as Tony Abbott – therefore his words and actions and photo ops receive the same media attention. As many msm reports indicate, Abbott is now looking rattled – and the reason is that Rudd’s return has levelled the playing field. The Labor leader is no longer someone who has had “the job” done on them as inconsequential, a woman with a big bum and a nasal Aussie accent, but media tart Rudd. The Question is..is Abbott coping with competition where it’s not just a matter of flaunting the body beautiful for the TV cameras..but wait..look over there..It’s The Return of the Milky Bar Kid. So speak up Tony Abbott, we’ve been waiting a very long time for you to be forced into a position of having to do so.
I do hope that Tony Abbott has the humility to accept the verdict of the experts..however, knowing the extent of the ego I am extremely doubtful.
“That was in the dying days of the biggest global boom ever recorded.”
One thing i have noticed about you people is that you will admit that the economic numbers of the Howard/Costello govt were good. But you don’t give them any credit. It was just all dumb luck.
I suppose that is how you convince yourself you are doing the right thing by voting Labor.
The economic boom often claimed by Howard and Costello had precious little to do with their policies. There were times when it continued in spite of the inept financial management of the cretinous Costello.
Costello’s only real contribution (and not of the good sort) was swingeing public sector cuts which balanced somewhat the profligate spending of the populist Howard.
We don’t give them credit because they’re not entitled to any.
“One thing i have noticed about you people is that you will admit that the economic numbers of the Howard/Costello govt were good.”
Not me Neil. The vaunted Costello surpluses were only possible because the household sector propped up the economy by gorging on unsustainable debt.
That debt is now having to be unwound.
Recessions always follow budget surpluses (except in economies running external surpluses…Econ 101).
Well the biggest mining boom in Australian history took place in Queensland. And this is what Labor did to Queensland
During this so-called worldwide boom most of the major economies were getting into debt. Only Canada, New Zealand and Spain were paying off debt. And Australia was of course. And only the Australian Federal govt. The State govts (all Labor) were getting into debt.
So much for the lies that it was the worldwide boom the lead to our prosperity. It was good govt by Howard and Costello.
One thing i have noticed about you people is that you will admit that the economic numbers of the Howard/Costello govt were good. But you don’t give them any credit. It was just all dumb luck.
I suppose that is how you convince yourself you are doing the right thing by voting Labor.
Where to start? The Liberals enjoyed good numbers because they enjoyed good luck. No other party has ever been in government during the biggest global boom ever recorded. No other party has enjoyed the joint conditions of: 1) an unprecedented global growth boom and 2) the biggest domestic resources boom in a generation.
Anyone can claim to be “good with the economy” when they’ve lucked it for that combination of lucky conditions.
But it wasn’t just that they were in the right place at the right time. The economy the Liebrals inherited from Labor in 1996 had been comprehensively tweaked and streamlined by Labor to mamixmise advantage of growth conditions.
If the Liberals had any economic credibility they could point to the economy beginning (or resuming) growth on their watch. But it did not. The economy was already growing when they took over in 1996. They inherited an economy already in growth. Then the global boom took over – domestic growth propelled faster. Then the domestic resources boom chipped in with its intensifying effect, pushing the domestic economy into “best of times”.
Nothing to do with the Liberals. Growth did not begin under them. The streamlined economy they inherited was none of the Liberals’ doing. The global boom was none of their doing. And the domestic resources boom had nothing to do with them either.
Paul Keating (the first Labor treasurer to be awarded World’s Best) described it in a few words:
Howard was struck in the arse by a rainbow.
To judge the Liberals you need to look at their record when the global economy is not doing so well. The last time they were in office during a serious global downturn (though not as severe as the GFC) was in the late 1970s, early 1980s. The treasurer at the time was John Howard. The results then:
Double-digit Interest Rates
and Double-Digit Inflation
… all at the same time!
The only time the three indicators have gone into double digits together.
Debt and deficit that climbed year after year.
And Australia’s worst recession since the Great Depression.
They’re the facts, all a matter of public record. This has been told to Kneel of Sydney any number of times. He’s a Liberal, you see, facts and truth brush off them like water off a duck’s back.
Mavelaenor @8.38pm, 26/7, thank you. I agree with you wrt the cockiness of the Liars, who expected that it would be business as usual with the msm even if The Termite were to succeed in ousting Julia.
Unfortunately for them, not only has The Termite been favourably received by the msm, but they’ve stopped looking the other way at his lies and obvious incompetence and finally started asking questions and observing their unravelling.
Like you, I feel no respect for The Termite and am sure he doesn’t deserve to win, but I feel even less respect for Liealot and know that electing a Liars government would be an unparalleled disaster for this country.
By observing what is happening in Qld, we are being treated to a snapshot of what a Liealot government would have in store for us and we should be very afraid.
Only fools could support the idea that a Liars government could possibly be beneficial to anyone other than the mega wealthy.
You are spot on cuppa and the person who backs you up in that assessment is John Howard himself.
In his first term bringing together his first budget he said words to the effect, “I was handed a better economy by half than I thought possible.”
The longest sustained growth period in global history started two to three years before Howard won office for the first time, which is why Howard did not fight the election campaign on the obvious improving economy, but fought it on the current account deficit almost exclusively with his debt truck, demonising it as the greatest disaster foisted on Australia and exclusively of the Keating government’s making.
Winning government on that scaremongering and other lies that were to become his hallmark Howard went on to rack up record account deficit after deficit, the likes of which this country has never seen, and were only improved with Rudd winning government.
A major reason for Howard loosing in 2007 outside of his found out WorkChoices deception, was his using tricky words once too often, and in this case on interest rates always being lower under a Liberal government, as they kept going up and up directly because of Howard economic profligacy. He attempted to use every twist of words and even outright lies as to what he’s stated less than a year earlier, but his exact quote in context was there for all to see in lots of footage and media releases. It was then when all his previous tricky words and twisted meaning surfaced, finally outing him as the lying deceiver he has always been, and still is. The second biggest lying PM in our history with Fraser being the biggest.
And isn’t it telling that the most expensive ex-PM in our history, far more than all the others combined including Whitlam when he was alive, is John Howard and the second highest is Fraser. Liberal ex-PMs cost the Australian tax payer far more than their Labor counterparts. And isn’t it telling that the most expensive LOTO in our history by a long long way is a Liberal and their current leader, who costs more in just about every area than the PM. How does that bode for him as PM and look no further than Newman giving himself and mates huge pay rises and expensive offices at public expense.
Once the Liberals and Nationals have their noses in the trough no amount of slop is ever enough for them.
“During this so-called worldwide boom most of the major economies were getting into debt. Only Canada, New Zealand and Spain were paying off debt. And Australia was of course. And only the Australian Federal govt. The State govts (all Labor) were
getting into debt.”
Really Neil, you should see somebody about this debt phobia.
Without “debt” there would not be a banking sector, no parasitic bond market, and our economy would be subsistence based. Have a look at the debt/equity ratio for our blue chip companies. Debt is the oil that lubricates the economy. To rail against debt like you do tells us lots about your understanding of how a modern economy works.
At the level of the national government, the monopoly issuer of the currency, it is a meaningless number.
If you’re being kept awake at night worrying about public debt I feel sorry for you. It is a fear born out of ignorance.
MJ Neil only goes on about debt, incessantly and has been for a long time now, because it’s the only thing he knows to bash Labor and praise the Liberals with. He can’t find any other areas to sing the praises of his conservatives and even there he’s a hypocrite as he totally ignores any Liberal government debt, like that being racked up by the Liberal states at the moment.
I repeat . . . 😯
Every year since being kicked out of office rodent Howard has topped the list of most expensive ex-PMs living on the public teat. Every year, no exceptions.
“Not me Neil. The vaunted Costello surpluses were only possible because the household sector propped up the economy by gorging on unsustainable debt.”
Mangrove jack- I thought you said that debt was not a problem. Oh i get it Coalition debt is bad but Labor debt is good. Private debt does not bother me. Qantas and BHP need to borrow. Furthermore they are more careful. Labor govts think money grows on trees and are not careful with money.
“I have a theory why the rodent government was voted out at the height of the economic boom.”
Me too. The greedy Australian population doess not like govts running surplus budgets. They want deficit budgets because they are greedy. Labor supporters want their greedy bellies filled up with services. They don’t care about the country.
Right Wing Projection!
The most expensive living ex-PM for taxpayers to maintain (John Howard) – Liberal.
The second most expensive living ex-PM for taxpayers to maintain (Malcolm Fraser) – Liberal.
The most expensive Opposition leader for taxpayers to maintain (Tony Abbott) – Liberal.
The most wasteful government in Australia’s 200-year history – Liberal.
Liberal shill, Kneel of Sydney, sees “services” as a dirty word. Another giveaway of what the Liberals stand for – winding Australia back to a third world economy and society.
“Mangrove jack- I thought you said that debt was not a problem. Oh i get it Coalition debt is bad but Labor debt is good.”
You “thought” wrong Neil. Please read what I said.
There’s public (government) debt and there’s private (household) debt.
It’s household debt that’s the problem as it has to be repaid from earned income.
That means saving. And saving sucks income from the retail and services sector, destroying jobs…which destroys savings…and so on. Google “paradox of thrift”.
Government debt always gets squared away in subsequent upward cycles of GDP growth. In the meantime the interest paid on government bonds is income for the private sector. The private sector likes this arrangement so much that the government actually issues bonds even when there’s no debt.
Please understand this: the Costello surpluses were never stored away in a locked box. They were just entries somewhere in a Treasury ledger showing that taxes were more than government spending.
There are good reasons why the budget should always be in deficit (whilst ever we have a current account deficit).
Alternative arrangements are unsustainable and fiscally irresponsible. Exactly the opposite of what you are advocating.
“There’s public (government) debt and there’s private (household) debt.”
Who says all private debt is household?? Where the hell do you think Qantas got the money from to buy their new A380’s??
And govt debt sucks money from taxpayers who would be spending it more carefully.
“The greedy Australian population doess not like govts running surplus budgets. They want deficit budgets because they are greedy. Labor supporters want their greedy bellies filled up with services. They don’t care about the country.”
That comment is truly bizarre.
Neil, do you understand the concept of double entry book-keeping…how assets are balanced by liabilities etc ?
Well similar logic applies to government budgets. When the government runs a surplus, who wears the deficit ? And when the government runs a deficit, who benefits from the balancing item, the surplus ?
Budget surpluses are not “money in the bank”. They represent private sector financial assets destroyed.
The “greedy Australian population” that most benefit from budget deficits will be private sector merchants, retailers and service providers. Small business owners.
I don’t think you’ve thought this through.
“And govt debt sucks money from taxpayers who would be spending it more carefully”
Exactly arse about Neil.
Firstly, taxpayers (or more broadly, the citizenry) are the beneficiaries of government debt.
And when was the last time taxpayers had to pay off government debt ?
Corporate debt is not an issue. It’s household debt that’s running at 150% of GDP.
Oh My Goodness .
I just wish the Election was today and it was all over.
This strung out ‘Election Campaign’ is blunting business and boring the public.
When voting be real , you will never get everything you want.It is a matter of voting
for the lesser of evils. In this instance the Labor record over the last 5-7 years
has left a very bad impression with Australian Voters. That’s why Gillard went.
No way can Rudd fix anything in actual fact that’s why he was ditched last time.
It is a loose , loose situation and Labor need time out in Opposition to regroup.
Mangrove, you’ve asked Neil to read what you said! 😯
Steady on. 😉
Voyager, I’ve noticed you haven’t been posting the opinion poll results lately. Is that because you no longer like them?
The shills are shrill of late, their quaking is almost palatable.. 😀
Mo, MJack, Cuppa… well said 😉 .. though I must admit to being somewhat jealous, singeing Trolls and informing..and all at the same time 😉 now that must be a joy 🙂
No wonder they, VoS, VbS, Nos, Scraps et al, can’t make any head way… not with you lot around….. it amazes me that they keep come’n back only to be shot down.. yet again… (Oh dear, how sad 😀 ) ….. after a while they just look silly….. IMO 😛
…. yet having said that I would hope that ‘they’.. the Trolls… keep come’n back, they act as perfect examples as to the ‘why’s’ of not voting LNP 😆
“… yet having said that I would hope that ‘they’.. the Trolls… keep come’n back, they act as perfect examples as to the ‘why’s’ of not voting LNP…”
Yes Lovo. They do provide us with lots of entertainment.
What never ceases to amaze me is that they, champions of conservative interests, fiscal rectitude, and all that, understand so little of how the economy actually works.
“Money” is their area of expertise isn’t it, but when it comes to perhaps the most important money of all, public money, they talk nonsense. And that goes all the way up from the minions who expose themselves to ridicule here to the front bench of the LNP, Hockey being buffoon-in-chief.
Well MT – the bookies still regard Labor unfavourably.
Probably about right.
And I kept telling you guys to grab Labour at $9.00 but you would never listen to me!
“I just wish the Election was today and it was all over.”
Your anguish is palpable Voyager.
If you were a dog I’d have you put down.
According to Sunrise this morning latest poll has Labor primary boosted with the Coalition steady for a 2PP of 50:50.
Labor can win with 49% and will win with 49.5% at projected preferences.
As Rudd is in Afghanistan visiting the troops a late August election is off, he would need to call it today.
So Voyager you are saying that all those times Howard refused to release an election date when demanded by the media and opposition meant he was blunting business and boring the public?
“Blunting business”, straight from an Abbott line. What a good obedient follower you are.
The poll was the latest Galaxy which shows a 4 point jump in Labor’s primary to 40% with the Coalition unchanged on 44%.
The poll also found a majority approved of Rudd’s PNG solution.
The ALP is certainly very competitive at 49% of the primary. It depends of course where Green prefs go, but they can’t exhaust so they only other option is the LNP and this seems unlikely for most Greens supporters.
On preferences, I don’t see the same level of support for the right fringe parties and ginger groups that I do for the Greens on the left. Katter’s Cut Snake Party support seems largely localised and Clive’s attempt to reanimate the corpse of Joe Lyons doesn’t really resonate with disaffected conservatives. I imagine many KAP voters would preference Labor whilst the tiny number of PUP supporters will send their votes to the LNP.
What will matter most at this election is the seat-by-seat breakdown. We won’t really get a sense of what’s happening until the campaign proper commences and we see how the majors operate in key marginals. I’m thinking Macquarie, Dobell, Robertson, Banks, Page and Eden Monaro (amongst others) in NSW. Conrangamite and Melbourne (perhaps La Trobe?) in Victoria, Hasluck in WA, Lingiari in the NT and take your pick of any number of even tory held seats in QLD.
I think Denison in TAS will stay with the tiresome Mr Wilkie.
What’s also curious ME is that 12% of LNP supporters think Rudd is the better PM whereas only 1% of Labor supporters think Abbott would make a better PM.
I often quote J.S.Mill who said not all conservatives are stupid, but most stupid people are conservative.
I might have to re-think that.
12% seem quite smart, on the Galaxy numbers.
The wild card in this election Lefty might be the newly enfranchised 18-21 yr olds, of which there are some 1.3 million.
I wonder if Galaxy is picking them up ?
Yes, that 18-21 band is interesting especially in light of the newly relaxed enrollment processes. We can assume that more of them will be voting.
“Firstly, taxpayers (or more broadly, the citizenry) are the beneficiaries of government debt.”
Well lets go for it. Lets not have a $20B deficit but lets have a $80B deficit. Lets just put everything on the Mastercard and gold plate everything.
It is govt debt that has got the Europeans into trouble. And we are not far away from losing our credit rating again. That will mean Australian govts and companies have to borrow money at a higher interest rate.
One should watch Insiders. Worth it to hear Morrison tying himself in knots, Cassidy giving him a hard time. The questions that need to be asked, are at last getting a hearing.
il what counts. Yes, the carbon tax is good for productivity. Could be what the money that is collected for the CEF, is spent on, that makes things grow.
Leftymatt. The ALP is certainly very competitive at 49% of the primary.
That should be 2PP methinks, and that’s true, Howard won an election with 49% of the 2PP and I think it’s Antony Green who has stated that the way he sees things going Labor can definitely win a narrow majority with 49.5%.
I can’t remember which TV station news had this piece, could have been one of the ABC services, but a university has done a poll/study on the 18-21 age group and found a large majority disengaged from current politics mainly because of the gutter politics it has become. You can thank Abbott for that.
I can’t remember what percentage it was but a good proportion are not planning to register to vote and this could be upwards of a million plus possible voters. As these are young people who favour mostly favour Labor and the Greens and they can be mobilised to register and vote by Labor and/or the Greens then the Coalition and Abbott is definitely sunk in deep water.
If, and I know these are pure conjectures, at the same time Labor can get the pensioner voters onside, who traditionally vote conservative but are nearly always screwed by Liberal governments at all levels, and show them factually how much better off they are under Labor and how Abbott is planning to screw them royally then the Coalition will be the Titanic heading for an iceberg.
I give up on rural voters, who, apart from pork barrels, are time and again totally screwed by Liberal governments and their toady Nationals, yet continue to vote for them.
One can see the so called debt, as money spent on investment, that will bring a return.
Nothing in this world occurs without debt. It is whether the debt is manageable or not, that is the clue.
More cutting at this time, just might lead to bigger debt. Is that an option, one should chance.
I believe we have a trillion dollar budget. Are those deficit figures really that great. What is a few billion either way, in the scheme of things. It is the percentage that counts, and that is still low.
Neil. you cannot compare individual European countries with us. There economical system is entirely different. They are all under the European common market.
Sorry I made a mistake at @ 8:04 am. Labor’s primary went up 2 points, not 4.
And we heard from Morrison that the Coalition will keep Labor’s PNG solution. There problem isn’t with the solution but with Rudd implementing it.
Why vote the the Coalition when all they are promising is to keep just about every policy bought in by Labor, thus as the opposition have done for the last six years by voting for them in parliament, endorse them.
It seems the opposition have shifted from vote for us because we aren’t Labor and vote for Abbott because he’s not Gillard to still saying they aren’t Labor whilst supporting nearly all of Labor’s policies, but changing Gillard to Rudd because they can’t find a single other reason to convince people to vote for Abbott.
Damn, “their” not “there”. I hate when I do that.
because they can’t find a single other reason to convince people to vote for Abbott
It’s been ever thus. How many times have we at the Cafe challenged the Lieberal trolls to make the case why people should vote for Abbott. They have failed every time. In a thread that Miglo dedicated to that challenge the trolls went to great lengths to avoid answering the question. One sad troll even went so far as denying the challenge had been put at all! – even though it was there in black and white in front of the readers’ eyes.
If desperate right wing trolls can’t see a reason to vote for the wingnut, then ordinary voters have no, zero, reason.
Interesting article on ABC 24 on how electricity usage has dropped, and renewals coming through to take the place of Foss fuel
Even Abbott won’t ‘debate’ why he would be better. 🙄
Vote for the Ruddite not the Luddite!
Too bad we are having all this talk about asylum seekers. We had solved the problem but Labor caused the problem by dropping Howards policies.
And all those poor people who are stuck in camps no longer have a chance to get to Australia.
Labor just creates problems and has no idea how to solve them.
Too bad we are having all this talk about asylum seekers.
Look over there – Asylum seekers! Last night Kneel of Sydney wanted to talk about the economy… that’s until he was thrashed on that topic (for the hundredth time). Now he doesn’t want to talk about the economy any more… until next time, when he’ll get thrashed again. And so it goes with the ‘input’ from wingnut land.
Neil, how do you explain, that Labor has put a harsher form of the Pacific Solution back in place, over the last two years, AND IT DOES STOP THE BOATS.
Whether Rudd did the wrong thing, keeping an election promise, which the voters demanded, led to the boats coming again, means nothing.
What has happened over the years, the scene for those fleeing for their lives changes, as it always does over time. Nothing is constant when it comes to AS.
The numbers dropped during the time of Howard. Yes, he was damn lucky. hey increased and from different regions after the 2007 elections. Yes, the numbers would have increased, regardless of what happened.
Yes, the PNG solution will not work, unless the numbers struck in Indonesia and Malaysia, and other places in the region, are addressed. Yes, PNG is only the beginning, not the end all.
Morrison is not about stopping boats, he is about stopping the people. Is this what most Australians want. I suspect not.
The question that Morrison could not answer this morning, was, that by talking down the PNG scheme, he was encouraging people to come by boat. Telling them that it will and cannot work, is the message that the smugglers much love hearing.
Thus endorsing the solution. they just can’t stand not having the wit to think of it, and that they can’t big note about it, ME.
Neil, your mob wants to tow them into international waters to drown. they have no intention of allowing any of the poor buggers in camps or elsewhere to settle in this country.
And ffs stop with the bullshit that the Rodent had solved the world refugee problem, when that corrupt slime bag helped cause the refugee stream from Iraq and Afghanistan.
Stop trying to rewrite history, you loony.
Neil, Why was Mr Howard spending about $500 million extending the Christmas Island detention centre in 2007?
“Neil, Why was Mr Howard spending about $500 million extending the Christmas Island detention centre in 2007?”
Don’t know. Perhaps you can tell me. You are not trying to say that Howard had the thing built because he new at some point all these asylum seekers would come?? Do you really think he is that prophetic??
An attempt at an answer is that some of Howard govt policies was just bluff. Like in poker you need some bluff to win the game.
“they have no intention of allowing any of the poor buggers in camps or elsewhere to settle in this country.”
Jane that is who we used to take until your vote in 2007. It is a crime what is happening. Our humanitarian places are being taken by people with $10,000, mobile phones and computers and people in camps cannot get in.
But corrupt and immoral people lead to corrupt and immoral results.
Maybe Howard did succeed back in 2006. Mainly because things were different.
The situation is nowhere the same today,. That is why when one says we solved it then, we will again canot work, as today’s problems are not the same.
Top solve a problem, one has to be able to identify what it is. Abbott cannot do this with asylum seekers. He cannot do it with the economy. He cannot do it with productivity. To him, a;all problems are the same as they were a decade or more ago.
He ignores all the massive changes since 2007. Massive changes in war zones and the global economy.
The same is true, when it comes to education and CEF. The biggest mistake he is making, is that he cannot see the advantages for Australia that the NBNCo wil;l bring.
He seems to ignore the fact, that we are entering the Asian century, that there has been a shift in the world order. Probably the biggest, since the fall of the Berlin war, and communistic Russia.
All that Abbott is good for, is talking things down. He appears to been highly successful in this regard,.
These sites seem to be growing rapidly. Noticed the PUB has had or is near it’s million visitor. Long may they all live.
These sites seem to be growing rapidly. Noticed the PUB has had or is near it’s million visitor. Long may they all live.
Disenchantment, I’d say, with the Liberal media.The Liberal mainstream media has peaked and is now in decline. People want truth and facts, they’re fed up with spin, therefore they’re bypassing the Liberal media. That’s BAD news for desperate wingnuts. Well, actually, more bad news, that is. 😀
Speaking of honest media, Independent Australia has a cracking article at the moment: Tony Abbott’s 15 latest lies. Recommended.
Sorry Neil, the facts just does not support your beliefs.
But cuppa the decline in the right wing MSM is bad news for us as well because it means the mindless consumers of right wing nonsense and bull shit will move to the 5th Estate to dribble their crap there. We have a few perfect examples of mindless pedlars of right wing idiocy and untruths here.
More. Debt is actually coming down, because Gillard, and now Rudd have been practicing fiscal consolidation for years. Whether this is good at this time, is another question. One I suspect Neil would not like the answer to.
Interesting article. Abbott manages to get up to fiver lies, into one sentence. That does take some doing, in MHO.
I’m of two minds about right-wing trolls lately. The bigger part of me would take a hardline approach. That is, once they start with the lies they would be out. Banned. Start trolling, banned. I’m a bit bigoted like that. It’s hard to see why we must tolerate Liberal spin sullying OUR progressive media, as well as dominating THEIR, “mainstream”, media.
However, blogmasters like Miglo are more tolerant than I, and they’re probably right. Let the Liberal idiots have their say – then in debate we can pull them down. (As we did with Kneel of Sydney last night). And in doing so demonstrate to the wider readership the absurdity, the ethical vacuum, the lies and myths that underpin right-wing talking points. It’s a good thing to be able to show them up, we could never get a voice to do so in the Old Liberal Media.
I see you people are mentioning lies. What about this one??
“Mr Rudd has said consistently over the last 12 months that he would not challenge for the Labor leadership and that he would contest the next election as a local member of Parliament at the next election. That position has not changed.
Furthermore, Mr Rudd wishes to make 100 per cent clear to all members of the parliamentary Labor Party, including his own supporters, that there are no circumstances under which he will return to the Labor Party leadership in the future.”
Now if Howard had said something like that??
Before 2010 Abbott repeatedly said he would walk away, rather than contest the Liebral leadership if Sloppy Joe Hockey was also in the running.
Well, Hockey did run in November 2010. And rather than bow out as he’d said, Abbott ran against him. Another lie.
Courier-Mail, 30 November 2009:
…Mr Abbott had always said he would stand aside if Mr Hockey contested the leadership, but that position has changed because the shadow treasurer isn’t willing to adopt the hard line on the ETS.
Mr Abbott said he had decided he needed to challenge whoever may be standing at the Liberal party room meeting.
Error correction: Hockey ran for the leadership in November 2009.
Neil, sorry wrong again. Rudd did not challenge, and Gillard was clear about this fact. GIllard called the spill.
Will agree that the actions of Rudd and his supporters did not give her much choice, but she could have kept going. Yes, she did have that option. Rudd, knew he needed Gillard to accept the position, and gracefully, she has given him clean run.
Yes, Gillard, along with many, accept that caucus had the right to vote in, whoever they had the most confidence in. In this case, to win a the next election.
That is how the system works. One might not like the vote of the majority, but that is too bad.
Most will deal with why this was the case later. The aim is to prevent Abbott from winning. On this., most Labor supporters are united. We do not need to like Rudd.
Even Rudd could cause all the damage alone. He had plenty of helpers. Many do support him, and this needs to be respected.
The truth is, Rudd did not challenge.
Remember, both were seen creeping out of the Howard residence before the vote. Wonder if Howard told Hockey to run, as well as Abbott. Yes, clever use of divide and rule. Hockey was too naive to see it. I believe he still does not realise, he was set up, to get Abbott in.
Rudd said this “Furthermore, Mr Rudd wishes to make 100 per cent clear to all members of the parliamentary Labor Party, including his own supporters, that there are no circumstances under which he will return to the Labor Party leadership in the future”
FU- you can’t even admit to a baldfaced lie by Rudd. To say love is blind with you people is an understatement.
Because technically he did not lie. In fact Gillard challenge him too. Yes, I am sure she knew she might lose, but the reality is the situation could not continue. It is called I believe, to know when to fold. She knew the three year poker game was up. Fight right to the bitter end though, with guts, that I have never seen from men politicians.
One thing that Gillard did ensure, that she made it much harder for Abbott to win. That is a fact that Abbott and his supporters are having trouble dealing with. GIllard might just have the last laugh.
Abbott’s successful campaign, of making the minority government illegitimate has been successful, but it has played in Rudd’s favour, not Abbott’s.
Yes, Gillard gave many, their legitimate government back, and many seem to like it. Do not seem to be in the mood, to hand over to Abbott.
Neil, I see you are having trouble answering soxy’s question. I do too because it is nothing but a typical leftist ill informed talking point.
In 2001 a temporary facility was built at Phosphate Hill on Christmas Island. In 2002 the Howard government tendered for a permanent facility to hold 1200 people.
On 19 February 2003, due to the decrease of boat people the Howard government cancelled the contract in favour of a facility to only hold 800.
The construction did not commence proper until early 2005 and final handover to the government was on April 2008. The total cost for the facility and related infrastructure was $395.5M.
Soxy says that Howard was spending $500M to extend the centre…a typical leftist lie as it was less than the amount he says, was not an extension but the permanent facility and his argument that Howard saw that more coming so extended something that was not complete is just beyond belief of a sane person.
You’re right, liars!
Click to access 2008-09_Audit_Report_43.pdf
Not love Neil, it is called politics.
I seem to recall, Rudd lowering the money that was to be spent on Christmas Island, and being criticized for doing so.
Got a link to prove that because I don’t believe anything you say.
21 November 2009:
Opposition Senate leader and climate change sceptic Nick Minchin has denied Tony Abbott is preparing to challenge for party leadership in a split over the emissions trading scheme.
30 November 2009: Abbott challenged for party leadership in a split over the emissions trading scheme.
Abbott out again, supporting the FBT rort.
God, he is desperate for a immediate election. WHY”?
Otherwise just the same old slogans, hung together. with no connection.
The man is beginning to sound ridiculous.
Hockey, government in panic about the budget. If what he says is true, why does he appear to be in panic mode. How does one justify, supporting tax rorts.
New slogan. One word “panic”
New slogan. One word “panic”
So the Liberals are talking a lot about their opponents “panicking”.
Knowing the propensity for right-wingers to project their own situation onto their opponents, we can safely surmise that it’s the LIBERALS who are panicking. Good! They deserve it.
There has been some speculation that Julia helped in the return of Kevin and thus providing the ALP with the penultimate wedge that has pushed the LNP into disarray.
The ANOA report only confirms that the Howard government was building increased and enhanced facilities on Christmas Island AFTER they’re supposed to have “stopped the boats.” Even the initial contract to build a 1200 bed facility was in 2003, and the 2nd go at getting it right was in 2005 – after they’d “stopped the boats.” 🙄
Not sure about the costings – what is and isn’t covered by that report, but the point is moot anyway – it was a shipload of $$$ for a facility they were telling us we wouldn’t need because it was “mission accomplished” already…
To our right wing friends who seem obsessed about lies and who is telling them, I direct their attention here:
Just listened to the Bolt interview. I believe that Rudd actually wiped the fl;or with Bolt. I know others see it different,.
Neil of Sydney.
I wake up every day, and even as an atheist, thank christ
I am on the opposite side of politics to you.
The waffle that pours out of you seems to be about the same as Abbotts.
Bloody good fertiliser though 😀
If ever anyone is feeling a bit down, and want to have a bloody good laugh at Abbott and his Liberal idiot mates,all you need do is read the article the-accidental-leader-how-abbott-won-2009
It cheers me up no end, to see what a bunch of dickwits these are.
Neil of Sydney, go have a chuckle at your team
Fu Rudd did wipe the floor with Bolt. I published a small comment in the Media Watch thread.
Bolt proved he’s not a reporter and can only handle those who completely agree with him.
The incorrect $500 million figure that is widely published came about because Howard originally upped the specs to a 1200 bed facility and then pared it back when the cost and time blew out to an estimated $427 million.
Howard did not pare it back because he believed he could stop the asylum seekers coming.
One of the conclusions of the committee investigating the construction and cost overruns was:
There are a whole bunch of audit reports I’m not going to go through, but they detail the individual cost overruns. For instance a budget increase of $60 million was sought and granted in 2006.
My point in posting this is to highlight that the Howard government expected large numbers of asylum seekers and it was budget and cost overrun constraints that limited the size of Christmas Island, not an expected reduction in asylum seekers.
The Liberals, supported by death merchants.
So while the right wingers go on and on about four deaths in the insulation program they have no problems with the Liberals taking millions from a company that causes a death every 28 minutes in Australia.
Let’s not forget the arch enemy of AGW and the man behind the Liberals denial on it, Minchin, also once went into fight for the tobacco companies and denied that smoking caused cancer or was harmful.
LOVO, we are talking about politicians who would sell their souls to the devil rather than allow Australia be handed on a platter to the likes of Tony Abbott (excusing the double dose of pithy sayings). It was not for nothing that Gillard made Rudd her Foreign Minister and also how she chose to ignore the rumblings of a challenge from him. The msm choose to see it all as a conspiracy one against the other, but just maybe it is Gillard and Rudd who were doing the conspiring..together.
Min, I remember hearing how after the leadership vote Juila and most of the ALP MP’s ‘n Senators went back to the Lodge and had a grand old time… Julia was apparently in good spirits and there was lots of smiles, laughter, back-slap’n and bonhomie all round……..
… so, ok their pollies, mayhap they know how to lose well, but the smiling faces seemed to be at odds with the events of the day 😯
… and then theres the odd way the spill finally happened, Julia smoothed the way so Kev didn’t have to ‘challange’, mm.. and just after she had completed 3 years in the job, mm.
….. and if one also considers that the LNP campaign machine would have been in full flight with anti-Julia ad’s and propaganda…. Tony, perhaps, had been in rehersal and had his ‘lines’ and slogans down pat…… 😆
…and then *blammo* , a wedge from stage(d) left…. and here we are…. Julia has her place in history… Kev’s got his old job back …. and Tony’s left slack jawed wondering how all these wedgies got into he’s budgie smugglers 😀
Thanks for that article. Very entertaining. What a useless rabble they are. Now they’re stuck with Abbott, likely the biggest dud ever to have leadership of a major party. I recall one of them saying after they’d installed ‘the accidental leader’, we’ve really fucked ourselves over now. Lol!!
“but just maybe it is Gillard and Rudd who were doing the conspiring..together.”
O.K. so the whole thing is a conspiracy. Gillard gave the job to Rudd because she knew she would lose and Rudd would do better.
NoS, as usual you miss the point….. it’s not about Julia… it’s not about Kev…. it’s about stopping Abbott from destroying Australia in his vain attempt to be something other than the Pope….please do catch up… 🙄
And lets not forget the mystery petition that supposedly forced Rudd’s hand to challenge even though he didn’t want to. The media went nuts over that so far invisible petition.
Another part of the conspiracy?
I do not believe there was a conspiracy between Rudd and GIllard. I believe that Rudd still hates her guts, and still blames the wrong person for what happened to him. I do not believe that he has learnt to space himself, to take time off and rest. This will lead him to the same place he found himself in the past.
Ms. Gillard was a hard worker, probably one of the hardest worker PM this country has seen, What she appears to have, is the ability to turn herself off, not like Rudd, who I suspect has an obsessive nature.
No, there was no conspiracy, but Ms. Gillard, who had the ability and guts to see things as they really are. One who also knows, one only has the job if one has th confidence of their caucus and can deliver. It became clear, no matter what she did, this was not going to happen. Saying that, Ms. Gillard work right up to the line, putting as much in place, to help Labor win the next election. Conspiracy NO.
Gorton did the same, when faced with a 50/50 vote. He cast his vote in the negative for him. He said it would only be a short time, before they called for another vote. This he believed would lead to insecurity.
I do not believe the government that follow Gorton was too hot,, but it was the party that made that choice. One can only hope, that the Rudd government is a greater success.
Whether Rudd is a success or not, will be up to him. Ms. Gillard will be at peace, knowing that she has done nothing to undermine him. In fact, she has left him plenty, in place or the pipeline to work with.
Neil, un believable, you could have it right for once. At the very ;least, she did not fight to hold onto the job, no matter what occurred. I suspect that Gillard was more about delivering, than the length of time she served. I am sure she could have stayed longer, but it would not have prove a thing, Rudd supporters would not abandon him, no matter what was said about him, nearly all truth in MHO.
When playing poker, which it seemed like for over three years, one has to know when to play, when to fold. Yes, when one has an unwinnable hand, one has to fold. That is life.
I believe on the night, Julia Gillard made a a comment to her friends that they better get her back to the Lodge, before she took off to the GG and handed her Albanese’s name.
One could take that comment many ways.
There are going to many good books on politics down the line, attempting to explain what has happened in politics over the last decade. Because what has occurred did not start with Rudd or Gillard, but with Howard. Abbott was just one of his tools. Howard’s hand hand can still be found in the machinations of the Liberal party. Bough and Sinodinos for starters. Definitely in the election of Abbott as leader.
We have Hockey in Marouba.
Laugh. Same Labor that Obied still runs. Suspect he is wrong. Now quoting Palin. Lipstick on a crocodile. Of cause they do not borrow from the Tea Party.
Do not believe any of the Obieds have power now.
Of cause it is all about waste. A leopard does not change their spots. Gee, I must say, their originally does indeed show. Had to stop broadcast. Do not believe we will miss much. New Marouba man seems a little boring.
Surely one should expect more that insults, slogans, sayings and throw away lines.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim”. Gustave Le Bon;”The Crowd”
Why do economist and politicians keep saying we wasted the windfall we have had by wasteful spending. Do not they really mean the excessive tax cuts over they years was wrong.
Do they mean, cutting revenue is wasteful spending. I do not believe so.
We hear all the time about spending, but nigh a word about increasing revenue, even restoring some of the taxes that were cut.
Budgets are made up of the revenues one collects, and how that revenues is spent. Why do we stick to the apparent belief over the last couple of decades, that it is all about cutting taxes?
Why has the word “tax” become so dirty, and to be avoided at all times. Are not taxes, the cost we make, in investing in our own country and future. Why are they seen as bad.
There are many things, as history has shown, that are better done by government. Basic health and education head the list. In some things, the cost is better shared.
We hear all the time about spending, but nigh a word about increasing revenue, even restoring some of the taxes that were cut.
One day we might come to understand that the the purpose of taxes is to manage aggregate demand. Taxes fund nothing.
So long as the institutional relics demand we subtract taxes from spending to generate a preferred budget outcome, governments are restrained by ideological shackles that ensure high unemployment and an ever increasing share of the pie going to capital, rather than labour.
We might also then understand what “broadening the base” really means.
“The role of taxes (other than to define a demand for the currency) is to reduce nominal demand by taking capacity to spend off the private sector.”
Thanks once again Tom. As for widening the tax based. Could be wrong, but code word for shifting from those who can afford to pay, to those that cannot.
Theories aside, we hear loud and clear, from industry that claim they are being rooned by taxes. We hear nothing from them about the infrastructure governments provide, to allow their businesses to thrive.
That includes a healthy, educated and trained workforce. A workforce that not only makes the goods to sell, but also buys them.
Most would soon disappear down the gurgler, if the latest technology in communications is not available. Of course they do not need those roads or ports, that have been provided over time.
I know one thing, what is good for Mr. Murdoch, is not good for me. So why does one even listen to him, or what is said in his media.
Ch Seven say they need NBNCo, to grow and prosper. Mr. Murdoch knows that he will face big competition, if NBNCo goes ahead. In fact it will lead to what he now has, becoming valueless.
As for widening the tax based. Could be wrong, but code word for shifting from those who can afford to pay, to those that cannot.
You are soooo cynical Fed Up.
That makes two of us 🙂
More seriously, I realise that my statement about taxes funding nothing will be dismissed as nonsense by 99% of the readership, including my smarter lefty friends.
But when 50% get their heads around this utterly counter-intuitive but basic truth, they’ll stop trying to bullshit us.
I watched Chris Bowen (whom I like) being interviewed by Lisa Miller today on “the cuts”, anchoring his credibility to a budget surplus in 16/17. If the man-in-the-street ever learns that we need a surplus like a hole in the head, that commitment will hang around his neck like a dead albatross. And it’s so unnecessary.
Janette was cleaning down the back of the couch and found a few bob that fell out of the Rodent’s pocket, Bacchus. After she flogged off the last of the mouse pads and fridge magnets, she cracked open the piggy bank and VOILA!!!! there was a nice little stash.
After a night’s sleep, she and the Rodent decided that the detention centre on Xmas Island would make a nice little getaway, Just the two of them, the land crabs and a flotilla of small fishing craft to look at.
MJ, I thanked the wrong person before. Sorry. No we do not need the surplus promise. That is what got Gillard and Swan into trouble.
Still one can hope, it is a sleigh of hand, such as bringing in the market based price on carbon emissions. One that keeps the public happy, while doing little.
One wonders where politics in this country has sunk too, when politicians are scared of telling us the truth.
You would not believe how cynical I am. After nearly seventy years, I have seen nothing that proves me wrong, when it comes to those on the right.
Yes, the wifie did not appear to relish being bought out again today.
😆 @ jane. Sounds more plausible than anything Neil has ever posted 😀
To me, as a way way long shot from an economist the question should be..where to from here? We’ve wasted the boom under Howard..but was it really wasted under Rudd and Gillard? At least we have some revenue raising school halls to show for it.
However the past is in the past and how would those with a bent towards economics recommend that we secure our future…
If you think you know what ‘debt’ is, read on
There is a chasm between the common perception of debt and the reality. Unless we change this, more crises will come
Oh and people, honestly don’t attempt to explain debt and deficit to Neil, it has been done so many times over a long time know and he’ll just ignore it as he always has. He only knows one thing, it’s all his right twisted small brain can hold, Labor debt = bad, Liberal debt = ignore.
My advice is to ignore him totally.
Our future Min depends on having the 1.6 million currently unemployed or under employed doing something more useful than going through the soul-destroying rituals of looking for work that’s not there.
We kid ourselves that unemployment is not a problem in this country.
When the private sector can’t provide work for all those that want to work the government MUST fill the gap. That’s the social contract.
And to do that the government MUST run deficits.
Convention requires that the government issues debt to match any deficit but there’s no functional reason why it must, apart from keeping the bond market’s appetite for treasuries satisfied. The government is really only borrowing back money it pumped into the economy in previous spending anyway.
That’s not to say deficits are not important, but whilst ever the economy’s running at half-speed the risks are on the deflationary side rather than the other.
The school halls were paid for with deficits. Bravely and brilliantly so. Those deficits kept people employed. The Howard years were marked by surpluses that were mirrored (of necessity) by record household debt. Yet we applaud !
As surpluses presage recessions Howard was damned lucky “his recession” was buried under the catastrophic GFC.
Lucky we had a Labor government that knew what to do.
A good place to begin, could be the building of low income housing, to grow the housing stock. Either for rent, or assisted sale.
This would help take the pressure off the bottom end of the rental market, and increase stock, without pushing the price of homes up.
I believe there was a time, that NSW Housing Depart. bought houses off builders when work was scarce.
Thanks for the link to the Guardian article ME.
You are absolutely correct to say that unless we can get our heads around this stuff more crises face us.
We must try harder.
The author suggests that economics has not advanced in 100 years. I wouldn’t disagree but I’d add that it’s orthodox economics that’s failed.
Non-orthodox economists know exactly what’s going on but it’s a long time since I’ve seen the likes of Bill Mitchell explaining the stupidity of surpluses on prime-time telly.
Yet earlier tonight there was a bank economist on Walid Ali’s programme suggesting we put more money into our sovereign wealth fund like Norway does, obviously unaware that Norway runs huge external surpluses. No doubt most listeners would’ve thought that was a good idea. Bill Mitchell can explain why it’s a seriously stupid idea.
Whether we like it or not, policy is being increasingly driven by flawed economic underpinnings, but which, to most people, appear reasonable. A lot of that is rooted in the confusion of household monetary arrangements with those of government, a confusion that is ruthlessly exploited for political advantage: so long as we can be kept terrified of government debt, we can be manipulated.
A good place to begin, could be the building of low income housing, to grow the housing stock.
You’re in good company Fed Up. Keynes had similar ideas.
Low cost affordable housing is a key to prosperity, but it ain’t ever going to happen in this country whilst negative gearing and other generous tax breaks are available to developers and property speculators, a policy that mostly benefits the well off and contrives to keep all others out of the market so as to garner greater returns to those well off.
I can’t remember who it was, Rudd maybe, once flagged the idea of getting rid of negative gearing but the backlash was so savage, and from a lot on their side of politics, it was quickly abandoned. This is because amongst the greatest speculators on property and users of the negative gearing rort are the politicians on both sides of politics.
it could be quite a while for humanity to evolve beyond greed ! like when hell freezes over.
ananda1955. I don’t know what type of disposition your have but if you can stay relatively calm whilst reading shocking anger inducing information on blatant at all costs greed, which means untold numbers of human lives and suffering, read Oliver Stone and Peter Kuznick The Untold History of the United States.
There is an Oliver Stone documentary on it as well. Both the book and doco compliment each other but for the full detailed horror of unbridled greed read the book. There are many historic figures like Henry Ford who you will never think of in the same way again.
Thankyou Mobius Ecko, That sounds like something i should read.
ME, the “Untold History…” is on my short list of ‘must reads’. I value your recommendation.
Meanwhile, here’s a link to a really good essay by Bill Mitchell yesterday covering those things we we’ve been discussing. Perhaps Bill’s been eavesdropping:
“There is nothing new under the sun”
Min, I know you say you’re no economist (and neither am I) but you’ll find this essay is really about history, dealing with the same sorts of issues that worry us today.
You’ll see that there were plenty of troublesome Tony Abbott’s running around the US back in 1938.
Sometimes I wonder if it’s worth having the CSIRO take another look at Myxo, to see if they could come up with a primate 😉 mutation. Abbotts seem to be in plague proportion at the moment.
From MJ’s link. This little bit is about surpluses at all costs policy with no logic or valid economic rationale behind it.
My god that describes just about every rabid conservative I know and especially Neil to a tee. They are constantly attacking Treasury, just as Hockey and the opposition are at this very moment.
It makes some sense when you look at their deeply flawed economics in this vein. It’s not about good policy for the well being of the country but about taking power of the monetary system for their own and benefactors (read donors/supporters e.g. big tobacco) gain at the cost of the country’s well being.
Looked at this way, what they are doing makes sense even though it’s wrong on every front.
Hockey’s trashing of Treasury is quite schizoid as Treasury is the lab that brews the flawed neo-liberal ideology. It’s the Vatican of orthodox bullshit.
Treasury people must be feeling quite wounded (unless, win-wink, they understand that it’s a game).
This quote from Bill Mitchell’s essay illustrates the point of departure for logic and the common man’s understanding:
We intuitively understand that we cannot indefinitely live beyond our means.
Neoliberals draw an analogy between the two (government and households), because they know we will judge government deficits as reckless. But the government is not a big household. It can consistently spend more than its revenue because it creates the currency.
Whereas households have to save (spend less than they earn) to spend more in the future, governments can purchase whatever they like whenever there are goods and services for sale in the currency they issue.
When most of us understand this the bullshit might stop.
It can consistently spend more than its revenue because it creates the currency.
Or to put it more bluntly, the government creates money out of thin air.
And it drains it away via taxation (or we’d drown in it).
It drains it away, back to where it came from.
This brutal truth freaks conservatives out as they believe that the creation of money should be something mysterious (that only they understand)
ME, I believe that Keating did indeed get rid of negative gearing, but the backlash was so great, he caved in and put it back. Could be wrong, as I am only relying on history.
I am no economist either, but got many of my beliefs from reading the books of Jack Lang. I know the man was discredit by most, but he did leave a lot of buildings and infrastructure with his name on the foundation stones, in the time of the Great Depression. Many hospitals and growth of the electric rail, among some. To me, Jack Lang; when I was very young, I found he made sense. We need to remember, from those times, the bosses will pull every trick they know to ensure the government does their bidding. I believe every worker in the country, got a note in their pay-packet, on the eve of the State election, if they voted for Lang, their jobs were goner on the Monday. Their was even an army formed, to take over. Yes, they were wild days indeed. Sorry for the rambling, that really amount to impressions, not theories or facts.
Yes, all that negative gearing and housing rebates does, is to lift the cost of housing. No evidence that it increases the housing stock, the only thing that keeps housing affordable. Definitely not saying we go back to big state housing estates. That is the wrong way to go.
Now is the time for this type of housing to be built, while those in the industry are underemployed.
A very personal understanding of money, which I learnt from my uneducated, born in 1900 father, is that money is made to go around. While it is going around, everything is OK. When it stops, we are all in trouble. What he did not add, each time it goes around, it creates, or should new wealth. He also believed, and I support him, one cannot waste money, as long as it keeps going around.
In other words, money is only a tool to keep society going. What is in dispute, is how that new wealth is to be distributed. What is a fair share of those who’s Labor, turned that money into wealth, against those who contributed the money.
Did I hear correctly, that Mr. Morrison is out this morning, saying they will house and leave 3000 on Nauru, for ever. That tents will do.
Mr. Abbott, “who doe we want, ” someone who is desperate and willing to say anything to stay in power”. Yes, but who is the desperate one.
ABC 24. What we are going to do, is stop the boats. Yes, Mr. Abbott, but do you really believe you can. Evidence says otherwise. Saying we have a crisis and blaming Rudd, back in 2008, tells us nothing. That was another age, another situation.
Accusing Rudd of lying. Yes, that scrimpy two page document with PNG, is much bigger than Howard’s two sentence one, back earlier this century.
Pure Laura is getting it from Abbott. Has not stopped her from asking questions.
Abbott is going to win, because his will is stronger. Gillard had a strong will, but it did not stop her from defeat.
Oh, his is going to be cheaper as well. Yes, well I supposed taking 14,000 less than Labor, would make it a little cheaper. ABC 24
Why does not Abbott go back to a time when wee did indeed have a system that worked, back to the Vietnam boat trade days.
Abbott gave up. Did not seem to be many answering questions. Appeared to be mainly one reporter. Could it be, the media is not bothering to turn up.
I think it was Jack Lang FU that coined that cutting expression so beloved of Paul Keating: “Put your money on Self Interest, he’s always a trier”.
That “army” you referred to was called the “New Right” (from memory), the outfit that spawned de Groot, the bloke who galloped up on a horse and cut the ribbon the day they opened the Harbour Bridge, ahead of Jack Lang. They had to quickly tie the ribbon together so Lang could perform the ceremony.
My dear old Mum loves to tell me all about The Big Fella.
I think he brought in the widow’s pension ?
John Howard’s father I believe was quite involved with the New Right (explaining quite a few things).
Abbott giving mixed messages. Abbott is saying this is not a new policy, and has not gone through shadow cabinet, but Morrison has been consulting with Nauru. I think that Morris on may have made a private visit to Nauru. Abbott once again got his policy wrong. It hat anything new.
Who are the desperate ones?
ABC 24 Live.
Tony Burke says you do not set a limit on numbers for five years.
PNG PM express once again, angry at what Bishop has said. Upset at the way, this matter has been politicized in Australia, pointing out that they have been processing for sometime, saying that it occurred under the previous Coalition government. Stating that the previous Coalition government support what is being done.
“John Howard’s father I believe was quite involved with the New Right (explaining quite a few things).”
I also believe the man was involved in many dubious deals in New Guinea, as it was known at the time. Yes, it seems he was more than a suburban garage owner.
What people do not realise or even know. This mob, supported I believe by the Country Party were armed and willing to shoot.
I, for one, never trust unemployment figures, when we are approaching elections. I remember in my youth, when factories would put many off at that time. We all knew, or believed they also used the exercise to clean out workers they did not want. We also were aware that when the election was over, we would be reemployed.
Well that is how it appear to work in factories. Did keep the worker in line.
Yes he did bring in the widows pension, and built many hospitals in the western suburbs of Sydney. Something to do with that big coat hanger, I also believe.
Got into trouble, when he refused to pay debt back to the mother country. Thought the people came before debt.
Does Mr. Morrison really believe that AS are going to sit willing on Nauru, in tents for more than five years, without raising strong objections,. It has already been burnt down, more than once, I believe. How does one control five thousand, on a small island with a population of ten thousand.
Once again, the Coalition figures do not add up.
Well it is a little better than a catering company I suppose.
Yes, Abbott is not good at playing catch up, or reacting to Labor.
If Turnbull was to replace Abbott, the dynamics would not be the same, as for Rudd replacing Gillard.
At all times, most had no problems with Gillard’s policies. Many just did not want Gillard. This means that Rudd has been able to continue where Gillard left off.
With Turnbull, things would be different, as we know that many do not like Abbott’s policies, that is if they can work out what they are. Turnbull has supported an ETS, and I believe could live with the CEF, rather than follow through with Direct Action. and would be more inclined towards NBNCo. We know that Turnbull did manages to move Abbott on to accepting the need for fibre.
Yes, what could work for Rudd, would be unlikely to work for Turnbull. In fact, I suspect, any move down that path would split the Liberals.
just wondering what has happened to stephen, has he been converted to the lovely left ? : )
Fed up, Abbott made a huge blunder. Abbott
spentnay wasted years of his life attacking one person – Julia. Many Rudd-challenges-Julia headlines were but ploys to bring the opposite into effect, that Rudd would never challenge. This can be noted by the many and often denials by Rudd. The msm’s job was to keep the pot on the boil and to maintain the distraction of an imminent challenge. Abbott *knew* that Rudd would never challenge because the more the msm said it would happen, the less likely that it would.
It’s equivalent to, did you paint your toenails last night? The more that you deny that you ever would, the less likely that it’s going to happen…the mere expectation lessens the likelihood. Simple psychology.
Unfortunately for Abbott, Julia and Kevin decided to that they would no longer play Abbott’s game..
All abbott ever doe’s is play games ! The man has nothing to offer anyone who needs help or assistance. He just want to keep his foot on the throat of the disadvantaged to keep them there ! A disgusting trait for a so called christian !
Bill Mitchell also spotted that article about debt in the Guardian that you linked to above.
It’s quite a forensic analysis and really worth a read.
If more people made the effort to understood this, the bullshit would stop.
That’s interesting stuff MJ. The discussions in the comments are also illuminating.