Open Thread IV

Welcome to Open Thread IV.  Here you can post comments on any issue that doesn’t generally fit into topics running at the time.  No limits.

Here are the links to the previous Open Threads:

Open Thread II

Open Thread III

332 comments on “Open Thread IV

  1. Income Management – In Western Sydney
    By Adam Brereton

    Community leaders in Bankstown are furious about plans to introduce welfare quarantining. They say it will stigmatise ethnic and migrant groups, reports Adam Brereton

    Welfare quarantining similar to schemes operating in the Northern Territory and Western Australia will be introduced to targeted suburbs across the country from July next year, a plan opposed by local community leaders in Sydney’s Bankstown, where a lack of consultation and engagement has left many feeling frustrated and stigmatised.

  2. Ok, I have’s ok to stigmatise Aboriginal people but not ok to stigmatise people in the western suburbs of Sydney.

  3. Min, the programme should be dumped. There is no need for it for anyone.

    Where we have children not being fed or otherwise looked after can and is dealt with in other ways that already exist.

    Of a single person wants to spend their money on smokes and grog, so be it. It is them that goes without.

    Where children are involved, that is child abuse. Child abuse that should be dealt with with the agencies put in place to do so.

    Doc’s can now come to agreement with these parents to what amounts to voluntary allow income management. This happens every day of the week.

    If the parent is not open to voluntary arrangements, the Children’s Court can be approached.

    The role that Centrelink and other agencies such as Housing, Health and Education has to play, is to ensure their regulations make this easy to occur.

    Income Management is expensive, unjust and and ignores peoples rights.

    Where is the evidence going to come from to identify who is doing wrong.

  4. Sounds like you don’t know how Income management works CU 😉

    From 1 July 2012, income management will apply to the following groups of people in the Logan Local Government Area (LGA):

    * people referred for income management by state child protection authorities, where they assess that a child is at risk of neglect;
    * people assessed by Centrelink Social Workers as being vulnerable to factors including financial crisis, which could include people referred by state housing authorities because they are at risk of homelessness due to rental arrears; and
    * people who volunteer for income management.

  5. Bacchus, the first is already possible. As a ex-child protection worker, I have great problems knowing how Centrelink have the skills or ability to make these assessments.

    There are many cases where the parent agrees to carry out certain actions so that the children may remain in their care. These agreements are often backed by court action.

    I fail to understand why Centrelink would want the powers. All they are doing is doubling up on State powers that already exist.

    The Departments of Child Welfare already fill this role and is back by State Child Welfare Laws.

    The Department liaises with all other bodies involved with the children.

    The Department in NSW already has the power to request tenants to arrange their rent is deducted from their accounts. Often this occurs when they are in danger of being evicted.

    What I am saying is that this should not be the role of a Commonwealth Agency.

    The one thing that as far as I know is not covered, that is of school truancy. I know NSW DOCS, decades ago remove themselves from this responsibility. maybe the States should use the laws they have in the schools.

    Income Management is unlikely to help in this regard.

    Compulsory Income Management by Centrelink is not necessary and intrudes on peoples rights.

    All agencies in NSW have a role to play in child protection. It is DOCS that have the final responsibility if the matter cannot be solved within the agencies.

    Their are many agencies that help people with budgeting, if that is the problem.

    Funny thing is that DOCS now are involved if children are at risk when homeless.

    No, Bacchus I would be surprised that much good has come out of this in the Territory.

    I remember years ago people use to get vouchers from the charities to but groceries from, in this case the local Coles.

    One of two things would happen, they would return much back to the store, recovering the money that kept them in beer and bets for the rest of the afternoon. The second and most likely was to sell the groceries behind the pub.

    This was an regular occurrence.

    Bracchus I still stand by what I said.

    There are better way for the Commonwealth top spend the money.

    Providing more family and budget support workers for a start.

    Yes, Centrelink can make it easier to get money debit from the accounts when those who receives the benefit request. They could promote these facilities.

    What they should not be doing is setting themselves up in competition with State bodies who already have this responsibility, that is the protection of children.


  6. “Support services will include Financial Management Support Services which provide financial counselling and money management skills training, and Communities for Children services which support parents and their children through playgroups, parenting education classes, mentoring and support groups, and early learning programs.’

    These are services that are already provided by the States. What is great by the Commonwealth doubling up on them.

    I suggest the Commonwealth would be better placed supporting the services already in place. Makes sense to me.

    If they are really interested in protecting children from abuse, they would be giving more to mental health and drug abuse agencies for family support. This is where most of the abuse to children occur.

  7. You obviously have much more experience and understanding of this area than I do CU, but surely most of what the Commonwealth is doing here is just supporting the efforts of the State systems:
    people referred for income management by state child protection authorities
    which could include people referred by state housing authorities

    I see this a s a way to make what’s already in place more effective – not to compete with them…

  8. No Bacchus, if it is as presented, they are unnecessary duplicating what is the responsibility of the states.

    You have to be extra careful when investigating child abuse, and that it what we are talking about.

    All intervention of this type into a family can and does cause harm to the family.

    It is important that the process is not undermined by conflicting agencies investigating allegations. Allegations that often come from people with their own bias of what is abuse. Allegations also come from people with their own agenda.

    I believe that it should be a criminal offence to make repeated false or exaggerated allegations. It cause innocence families to be investigated unnecessary. Allegations of child abuse are hard to live down. Time wasted also puts at risk the children who are being abused.

    There are tens of thousands of notifications a year in each state. It is near impossible to judge what is important on first hearing. Something that sounds shocking turns out to be nothing. Something that does not sound too bad, turns out to be extreme abuse.

    The state agencies have files that date back decades. They have the knowledge to dismiss repeated allegations that Centrelink does not have.

    Even with this knowledge, DOCS still makes mistakes.

    Centrelink is better off working with the state bodies, whom I am sure will love their assistance when developing case plans for the safety of their clients.

    The Commonwealth is not supporting if they go down this track, they are hindering.

  9. …Still writing crap… Dennis Shanahan

    Kevin Rudd appears ready to take back old job, even before carbon tax is cooked

    This reminds me of an old Irish expression which suits the ‘election
    now’, and ‘bring back Kevin’ supporters.

    “They can wish in one hand and spit in the other” …

    Rudd attacks Richardson over leadership rumours

    KEVIN RUDD: You know there’s a thing in politics called relevance deprivation syndrome? Is Mr Richardson suffering from that? Probably.

    TOM IGGULDEN: He also described Mr Richardson as a mouthpiece for the ALP’s (Australian Labor Party) factional bullies, who he’s blamed in the past for unseating him as prime minister.

    KEVIN RUDD: Is Mr Richardson taking hundreds of thousands of dollars a year at the moment in salaries to go out there and bag the Labor party and the Labor Government every day? Probably. In fact, definitely.

  10. Hi Pip. I’m looking forward to trade week, which starts on Monday. I can think of a lot of Port players I’d like to trade, if anybody wants them. 😦

    Trading the coach is not an option, unfortunately.

  11. Political reality is that Kevin might be PM again after Xmas and the carbon tax abandoned under his leadership.

    The alternative is that Yabbott will become PM at the next election and dismantle the CO2 tax.

    The first option will be a lot cheaper.

  12. The only political reality on the Carbon Tax legislation is that this Wednesday it will come to the House of Representatives.

    Let us celebrate.

  13. Political reality is that Kevin might be PM again after Xmas and the carbon tax abandoned under his leadership.

    That’s not political reality at all el gordo aside from it being a contradictory paragraph.

    I wish you would stop stating your (flawed) opinions as absolute irrefutable facts.

  14. It’s all to do with internal disquiet and tensions in the Liberal party Pip.

    There are many not happy with Abbott, especially the powerful old guard, and I bet Howard as well.

    Abbott it utterly trashing the Liberal brand and is saying and promising things they all know can’t be made into reality or shift the party too far left. His stunts cannot be maintained and are already wearing thin, notice how their frequency has dropped off lately and that the media haven’t been reporting all of them, or have been showing them with a negative slant. The woeful turnouts to his invitation only public forums are a good indication of how Abbott is beginning to falter and fail.

    As to Rudd being leader. How many times has that now been raised as they keep shifting the goal post right when it doesn’t occur within the time frame they predict? el gordo’s prediction is a good example. When Christmas comes and goes with Gillard still in power he will totally forget his current absolute assertions or fob them off with yet another topic shift or look over there.

    Rudd’s mythical leadership push is really all about the Liberals having internal problems and divisiions.

  15. Shall we ask Mr Abbott if he will resign when the legislation goes through? In a post from the Liberal HQ this question on resignation was not TRUTHFULLY answered by Abbott and they had the hide to post the evasion on their own website. Can anyone answer why the MSM lets this crap political avoidance through?


    Mr Abbott, you told miners this week that you were staking your political life on defeating this tax. Once it gets through parliament, will you resign?


    Look, I said to those miners that I would fight it in the parliament and if it got through the parliament I would fight it in the electorate and that’s what I am going to do. I’m going to fight it in the parliament. I don’t think people should assume that it’s going to go through. Kevin Rudd proposed a mining tax before the last election. That mining tax didn’t go through the parliament because Kevin Rudd was rolled by his own caucus. Now, there’s a lot of unhappiness in the caucus. We are very close to the electorate of Blair now, and a lot of the trucks that are here at this depot are driven by people who live in the electorate of Blair and I think that the member for Blair, Shayne Neumann, really ought to be asking himself, what’s he doing backing a tax which is going to cause so much damage to his constituents and I think a lot of Labor members of parliament are asking themselves that question right now.


    What you’re saying is that if it does go through, your political life won’t be over?


    What I am saying is what I said. What I am saying is what I said. I will fight it in the parliament and then I’ll fight it in the electorate. The next election is going to be a referendum on the carbon tax one way or another”.

  16. ‘When Christmas comes and goes with Gillard still in power he will totally forget his current absolute assertions or fob them off with yet another topic shift or look over there.’

    They will watch the polls and if Julia and the party slump even more after the carbon tax legislation…there will be a push for the leadership.

    I’m still not ruling out Smith as a possible compromise front runner to avert a backbench revolt.

  17. Hi Miglo @ 3.32am, I hate to say this but Port might just do better
    next year.
    Brett Ebert has been re-signed and his cousin Brad wants to come home to either Port or the Crows.
    Brett only played 12 games because of a knee injury and he can play a bit….trades begin on Monday…
    There’s also this….. and Port treated Chad Cornes very badly this year IMHO.

    But you do know I care only about the Crows 😀

  18. Patrick Morgan in Quadrant.

    ‘Just as Australia has serial welfare families over generations, it now also has serial teacher, welfare services and public servant families, members of which have no memory of ever being off the public purse, and have few worries about financial security.

    ‘Lacking an understanding of economics beyond their own cosseted employment position, they support policies that help themselves and their sector, such as higher taxes, government intervention, job security, tough dismissal laws and protectionism, claiming these are good for everyone. This sector is a primary constituency of the ALP.’

  19. Still digging up the dirt

    It brought down Kevin Rudd, and the mining tax continues to torment the government.

    The night before Julia Gillard’s putsch against Kevin Rudd, the prime minister was offered a lifeline. Rudd was about to walk into a private function to address 65 chief executives and chairmen of the biggest companies in the country, the annual prime minister’s dinner with the Business Council of Australia. It would later be known as Rudd’s ”last supper”.

    He paused at the door of the dining room, the Senate Alcove in Parliament House, to speak with the president of the council, the urbane company director Graham Bradley.

    Of the three big issues damaging the government – the limbo on carbon pricing, asylum seekers and the proposed mining tax – the mining companies’ $22 million ad campaign against the tax was the one that Julia Gillard would soon adopt as her most urgent priority to ”fix”. But now Bradley offered Rudd a deal, unsolicited.

  20. At least that article is where it belongs, under OPINION.

    He paused at the door of the dining room…..

    Peter Hartcher writing again as though he was right there when it all happened. In other words it’s bullshit.

  21. I don’t know Mobious, there’s so much creative writing in that neck of the woods, all we know is that Rudd was deposed and Gillard ‘fixed’ the Mining Tax.

  22. And onto a favourite of mine, Barry O’Farrell.

    He broke yet another major election promise.

    Also as NSW drivers pay a full $5 each way toll on a toll way that’s having major construction work done to it, thus bringing traffic to a snail’s pace and causing far longer delays than promised, what was O’Farrell’s transport minister’s response, the same minister who as a shadow could not criticise the previous Labor government enough for each traffic delay and snarl up?

    “It has nothing to do with the government and is completely out of our hands.”

    As the ever increasing failures of their portfolios mount, O’Farrell’s ministers are making a regular habit of washing their hands of the very things they demanded the Labor government immediately fix.

    A couple of recent crime statistics that were declining under Labor are now increasing, with car theft being one of them. Like all Liberal parties always do, O’Farrell campaigned heavily on law and order, and like all Liberal parties fail at when in government, crime increases under their watch. WA is another example of this.

    Only difference between Labor and Liberal on this front is that every bad crime statistic made front page news and news bulletin headlines under Labor, whereas you have to stumble across bylines or a buried mention somewhere obscure to find out about the Liberal government’s failings.

  23. He paused at the door of the dining room. The wicked scent of Julia’s victory was already haunting him and his mind raced back to that time as a child he was locked unmercifully in the cupboard. By his mother. Like now, he knew he was right. Unlike now, he screamed.

    The screams shattered the night, where a young gypsy on a nearby street . . .

  24. Mobius, did you hear that O’Farrell is thinking of handing the TAFE system over to private interests.

    I do not remember this promise.

    Why dismantle something that has worked for many years.

    Were is the evidence that the private sector will do it better.

  25. Swan welcomes ‘enviable’ IMF report

    Treasurer Wayne Swan says the International Monetary Fund’s annual report on Australia’s economy is a strong endorsement of the Federal Government.

    In its annual report, the IMF said Australia’s performance since the onset of the global financial crisis has been “enviable”, largely thanks to good policy responses, a healthy banking system and Asia’s strong demand for Australian commodities.

    It went on to say that given Australia’s relatively low level of net debt, the Government would have the fiscal space to delay bringing the budget back into the black.

    But Mr Swan maintains that the Government is committed to returning the budget to surplus in 2012.

  26. Tweets

    CarbonTaxFan Carbon tax fan

    If @juliagillard wasn’t as good as she is, her enemies #Abbott, #Murdoch wouldn’t be working so hard to out her. dreamon#LNP #alp #auspol

    @swearycat @SpaceKidette
    Murdoch definitely and the rest. What about gamingaustralia, mining,
    pharmaceutical, gunns, liqueur & tobacco….

    CarbonTaxFan Carbon tax fan

    Soon Eddie McGuire will be ClubsAustralia CEO for multi-million dollar annual pay packet. #auspol

    @SpaceKidette @swearycat
    What companies r buying our democracy. Like footy players, maybe politicians should wear sponsors names on clothes?

  27. CU they should dismantle TAFE and put free enterprise in its place.

    The reasons are many and its fair to say TAFE is not working too well in the 21st century. It’s wasteful and behind the times…playing catchup.

    We shouldn’t have skill shortages in Australia, its a disgrace.

  28. On further reading it appears South Oz and Victoria have already gone in this direction.

    Unfortunately there is a flaw in the free enterprise model, the most popular courses do nothing to increase our skill shortage….more lifestyle stuff.

  29. El gordo I agree about the skills shortage dilemma. I’ll try and remember to put in my two cents worth in the issue when I log onto my computer. Typing is quite restrictive on my phone, as I’m currently doing.

  30. They say, el gordo. Who are they say. Have you ever been anywhere near a TAFE. Do you have any idea of the wide areas of training and education they provide.

    Look how the private sector ripped off those overseas students that came to this country. I am sure we can do with more of the same.

    Private enterprise will only provide where easy money is to be found, the glamour courses.

    No, I am very happy to see the present situation continue.

    Nothing is perfect and there is always room for improvement. That is not a reason to throw out the baby with the bath water.


  31. There is nothing stopping the private sector filling the gaps now that I know of.

    The employers could begin by contributing to the skills training, they need to run their businesses.

    They could start employing cadets, apprentices and trainees. No TAFE can train people without support from the industries they are attempting to train people for.

  32. Yep, hand TAFE over to the private sector and immediately alienate thousands who won’t be able to pay the exorbitant fees that will be demanded, even though the private interests are “handed” the TAFE system on a platter for a song.

    Yet another example of where the public over many decades build up a successful public enterprise and along comes a government to hand it to the private sector at bargain prices, who then run down the services and support whilst heftily increasing the fees and charges.

    You only need look at Howard’s expensive failure of Technical Colleges at how private skills based schools would fare. Something that Abbott wants to revive by the way. No surprise, not an original neuron spark in that narrow and limited thought process of his. $740 million thrown at a proven failure.

    The most successful scheme was a combination of in technical school training and then industry providing training and apprenticeships. Of course this would not do as it meant that wealthy and highly profitable businesses would have to fork out their own money to train the skilled workers they needed. Better off having the government pay for that, then lobby for IR policies that make it easy to sack the skilled workers so you could force lower wages and conditions on them, and then why not bring in a system where you could bring in very cheap overseas skilled workers at wages and conditions no Australian would ever contemplate.

  33. Julia wants to cut back skilled migration, but it sounds like lip service.

    According to the unions there are many skilled men in their 40s and 50s who can’t get work, so there is no need to bring in skilled migrants.

    They also want industry to pay for TAFE courses which is in their commercial interest.

    This is a valid argument and it would be helpful if its ‘a combination of in technical school training and then industry providing training and apprenticeships.’

  34. Now why would a conservative government that doesn”t believe in AGW do this?

    Canada counts the cost of doing nothing

    The cost of climate change in Canada is due to rise to between $21 billion and $43 billion a year by the 2050s, but could be as high as $91 billion under a high growth/rapid climate change scenario. The message from the The National Roundtable on the Environment and the Economy is that appropriate action may be expensive but not as expensive as doing nothing.

    That worst case cost of doing nothing has been muted as a considerable underestimate by some.

  35. Sorry to play grammar nazi here Möbius – it’s one I see regularly on the intertubes and it grates every time 😦

    muted = silenced
    mooted = propounded or raised for discussion…

  36. Bacchus, moot is also a hypothetical and also a case brought before freeman of the shire. But what’s that got to do with the price of fish I don’t know..just thought to mention…

  37. Where is N5? – I miss her him…

    Sorry Min – straight over the head at this time on a Saturday night…

  38. Well isn’t this interesting…from Twitter

    GhostWhoVotes GhostWhoVotes

    The clubs internal briefing: #pokies #auspol

    Club Training Australia
    Future Directions
    Managing regulatory changes
    The Right Direction -19 July 2011

  39. El gordo, I never bother with Menzies House, as they make up their own facts wthout benefit of real scientists, on behalf of
    Senator Bernardi !

  40. Congratulations to these three wonderful ladies !

    Nobel Peace Prize Awarded to Trio of Women for Championing Gender Equality, Peace-Building

    The 2011 Nobel Peace Prize has been awarded to a trio of recipients: Yemeni activist Tawakkul Karman; Liberian President Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf; and Liberian peace activist Leymah Gbowee. The three women were cited “for their non-violent struggle for the safety of women and for women’s rights to full participation in peace-building work.” The trio of laureates follow only a dozen other women among 85 men to have won the prize over its 110-year history.

  41. Pip it’s obvious that nobody at CW reads anything unpalatable, by comparison I read widely and try to understand the different points of view.

    The Patrick Morgan quote from Quadrant is particularly appropriate in describing the bulk of leftards here.

  42. AbbottPartyofNO MadMonk SaysNO

    galileo movement (geologists and miners) VS scientists (almost the entire climate science community). Who do you side with? #auspol #climate

  43. el gordo I do read ‘unpalatable’ but I don’t waste my time on anything connected with Senator Bernardi !

    You really read Quadrant ? ….oh dear !

    Quadrant contributors view anyone marginally left of Genghis
    Khan to be Marxists, ‘leftards’ and other unimaginative names..

  44. Bacchus, being a shy, retiring, modest, unassuming critter, I’ve never been to an orgy … I was just guessing 🙄

  45. Well to start your Bacchanalian education Pip, champagne is for bathin’, red wine is for drinkin’ 😉

    shy, retiring, modest, unassuming 😯

  46. I love it how el gordo is shot down by the very links and sources he provides, that is on the rare occasions he decides to provide links and sources.

    Now he reveals his true RWDB self in using the same terminologies and name calling as the wingnuts from the extreme right of the Australian online communities.

    I nearly sprayed my morning tea on reading this; “…by comparison I read widely and try to understand the different points of view.”

    Thanks for the grammar correction Bacchus. In blogs I type and post as rapidly as possible and rarely back check, thus lots of errors and mangled sentences with woeful grammar get through. I only have short windows of opportunity to be online for blogging, and I run two forums whilst trying to keep current on around a dozen blogs plus a heap of online news and opinion services. No excuse but it’s the way it is.

  47. ‘So when Gore says: “the environment in which all storms are formed has changed,” he isn’t actually lying, but he is begging to be misunderstood.’

    No, Gore’s lying.

    ‘I only have short windows of opportunity…’

    Good snapshot baccy, not being on the public purse I must work to stay alive and in very small businesses they sack loafers.

  48. This is an important week in politics and I would like to make the point that global warming has stopped and cooling has begun.

    There is no need for a tax on carbon dioxide.

  49. Carbon Tax in Parliament Tuesday, vote Wednesday, then to the Senate, the vote in November. The law to start July 2012, however some of the compensation to be delivered in May and June 2012.

  50. I find this an intriguing story
    “Ita rules out bid for lord mayor’s job”
    After the big push in the media and supposed good polling, she has decided not to run because
    ‘she said while her determination to challenge Clover Moore for the lord mayoralty had been buoyed by the research, she had decided it would infringe too heavily on her charity commitments.’

  51. A poll run by her mysterious anonymous backer, and not one that showed she would win an election only that she was well known by the voters.

    Methinks she saw the real numbers and realised she was not a shoo in.

  52. ”Global warming is a bogus proposition,” says Zhang Musheng, one of China’s most influential intellectuals and a close adviser to a powerful and hawkish general in the People’s Liberation Army, Liu Yuan.

    ‘Mr Zhang told the Herald that global warming was an American ruse to sell green energy technology and thereby claw its way out of its deep structural economic problems.’

    Read more:

  53. Sue @ 10.55am, after the flood of publicity for Ita she must have thought she’d be a shoo in.
    I can’t forget her posing in her yellow power suit, sitting in an enormous yellow chair, telling us we must have another election.

    It’s time for Ita to go away and enjoy her retirement.

  54. Opposition planning cuts to pokies tax rate

    THE State Opposition has been in secret talks with the clubs movement about cutting poker machine tax rates.

    It is understood that shadow treasurer Mike Baird and gaming and racing spokesman George Souris have spoken to the clubs as the Opposition considers making a similar promise to the last election, when it pledged to cut the tax rate.

  55. If Sartor was leader of the Opposition in NSW this would not be happening.

    Instead we have a union hack running the show who doesn’t have a clue.

  56. Mobius, once again, O’Farrell has got his priorities right.

    “THE State Opposition has been in secret talks with the clubs movement about cutting poker machine tax rates.

    It is understood that shadow treasurer Mike Baird and gaming and racing spokesman George Souris have spoken to the clubs as the Opposition considers making a similar promise to the last election, when it pledged to cut the tax rate…”

  57. el gordo at 12:29.

    Thanks for confirming for us that AGW is real, and I gather you don’t know how you did so in posting that piece you thought propped your misguided and erroneous anti-global warming stance.

  58. What you see in the Guardian article and the Fairfax story is a subtle moving of the deck chairs.

    They are actually looking at contrarian views before they run through the usual mantra.

    The people of Europe are bracing for another bitter winter and they pray for global warming, but unfortunately the gods are not listening.

  59. El gordo..good grief, very trying for a Sunday arvo. It’s not global warming it’s called climate change. Those bitter European winters are going to become even more cold and bitter, but even if not I doubt that those Italian vinergons want things warmer at the wrong the wrong time of the year..hells bells..hopeless!!

  60. ‘Those bitter European winters are going to become even more cold and bitter’ with global warming.

    Luv the irony.

  61. El gordo, what irony? It’s called climate change.

    You say, bracing for a bitter and cold European winter but fail to mention the hot dry summers, far hotter and far drier than anything ever experienced.

    Anyway.. TUFF the carbon tax goes to Parliament this week.

  62. It has been a cool wet summer in the UK and if the NAO dips below the line it will be a snowy winter.

    ‘….but fail to mention the hot dry summers, far hotter and far drier than anything ever experienced.’

    As the northern hemisphere cools there will be times like the recent Indian Summer, also droughts and heatwaves. We already know this from historical records.

    But overwhelmingly its the cool/wet summers and freezing winters which point towards regional cooling.

  63. Yes el gordo..I’m not a scientist, but the carbon tax is going to go through anyway. And this tax on Australia’s highest polluters should be supported whether or not one believes in climate change or otherwise because it is a tax on pollution.

  64. ‘…and this tax on Australia’s highest polluters should be supported whether or not one believes in climate change’

  65. I think it is called the Clean Energy Bill. What is wrong with wanting to keep our environment clean. It is also will rely more on renewals. Is not that good.

    In the long run, we will be more in control of how we produce our energy.

  66. CU, I think that we’re still waiting for el gordo’s explanation of why Australia’s top polluters shouldn’t be made to pay for polluting…we could be waiting a while…

  67. el gordo gets weather and climate mixed up again (deliberately?) and yet again cherry picks bits of climate news he thinks helps his erroneous personal unscientific belief on climate change.

    We’ve played this petty cherry picking of weather events game before, so I won’t indulge his trolling this time.

  68. Mobius, sad when the carbon tax goes through..what on earth is el gordo going to talk about…ah yes, that’s right we did work that one out didn’t we. El gordo is going to argue why the multinational mining corporations shouldn’t be paying more tax.

  69. He’ll just keep going on about carbon pricing being a complete waste using every piece of a cherry picked weather event he can find as though that proves his set in stone absolute and completely personal view on global climate, until the ETS comes in and then he will use the same methods for railing against that.

    Just throw in one or two sentence posts, usually disjointed and unsourced but aimed to provoke a retort, in other words troll.

  70. I can’t for the life of me understand why there’s so much hate for Gillard and the carbon tax yet Howard didn’t rate a mention of anger over his far more costly GST.

  71. I would rather an E for effort.

    CO2 is not a pollutant, climate change is natural and its hubris to think otherwise.

  72. Miglo, there is always hate when Labor is in power. You were too young in Whitlam’s day but the hate was no less then.

    Mr. Hawke was the only one that seemed to rise above it. Mr. Keating was hated by the time he left office.

    I feel that the Coalition will always generated hate where Labor is concerned.

    The reason for this hate is puzzling. The only explanation I can see is that the Liberals do believe they are born to rule. They are bad losers.

  73. Lucky devil, Miglo, that must have been amazing.

    Browsing through the latest news and found this:-

    Rudd sharpens up for looming fight
    by: Troy Bramston

    Wondering whether Troy might be related to Mavis I checked.

    Troy Bramston

    TROJAN HORSE: Conflicted lobbyist/journalist/party member and government job-reject Troy Bramston betrays Labor mates

    Bramston is accused by former Labor colleagues of having multiple conflicts of interest, by being both a lobbyist for property developers, a journalist writing for The Australian and a member of the ALP who was also a Labor staffer.

    Nuff said !

  74. Liberal Party prepares war chest for snap poll

    A TEAM of Liberal Party luminaries, including Alexander Downer and Santo Santoro, has been formed to fast-track a multimillion-dollar war chest for a snap federal poll.

    The Liberal Party is also mimicking the strategy of Barack Obama and will establish a “grassroots” fundraising program targeting small amounts of $20 or $40.

    As Tony Abbott puts his MPs on alert for the possible return of Kevin Rudd, senior Coalition frontbenchers are criss-crossing Australia to hold fundraising events.

    Remember Santo Santoro??

    Santoro village in disclosure wrangle

    Mr Santoro last week quit politics over revelations he failed to declare 72 share deals in accordance with senate and ministerial rules.

    Mr Santoro also failed to disclose he had acted as sub-underwriter for 14 companies.

    queensland politics
    21 Mar 2007
    The Fall and Fall of Santo Santoro

    Finally, on Tuesday 20 March, in a late-night bombshell speech to a sparsely populated Senate, Santoro dramatically resigned from Federal politics. Showing his customary bad grace, he announced that:

    it is part of the current political environment, where scrutiny is only applied in one direction, and where we have reached an unprecedented double-standard, that my continued presence here presents an excuse for that double-standard to be played out, in the nation’s papers, on a daily basis.

    Thus exited Santo Santoro so crest-fallen he forgot to even mention his nemesis, the ABC. No doubt, he can now commiserate with the recently resigned Ian Campbell and Kelvin Thompson or the Triple J journalist, Steve Cannane, whom he falsely accused of anti-Semitism about all those diabolical double-standards, played out, in the nation’s papers, on a daily basis.

  75. I see that Sky News this morning is still perpetuating the myth that Julia Gillard said that there would be no price on carbon.

    So here it is again..and thank you Pip for your very excellent research.

    JULIA Gillard says she is prepared to legislate a carbon price in the next term.
    It will be part of a bold series of reforms that include school funding, education and health.

    In an election-eve interview with The Australian, the Prime Minister revealed she would view victory tomorrow as a mandate for a carbon price, provided the community was ready for this step.

  76. I can’t for the life of me understand why there’s so much hate for Gillard and the carbon tax yet Howard didn’t rate a mention of anger over his far more costly GST.


    I had read the crabbe article he mentions, and drawn the same conclusion. How she came to the conclusion that wanting less change in your pocket somehow equates to profligate spending (which is what she wanted readers to believe) is beyond me.

    Even my wife lamented to me the other day how poor it was of the Government not to invite yabot to the tax summit. This is how pervasive the misinformation from our media is. If it is a blatant lie, don’t friggin repeat it, especially unchallenged or uncorrected.

  77. Yabbott and Hockey were invited to the tax summit, but they showed no interest.

    Probably because they will soon be government with a mandate.

  78. Tom, it makes one wonder why Gillard’s advisers aren’t enforcing that the misinformation put forward by the MSM is indeed influencing public opinion.

    They got away with the descriptions such as ‘rorts’ and ‘waste’ when this was a lie. And now they’re doing it with the tax summit and the poker machine legislation, and the Rudd/Gillard leadership speculation, and who knows what will be next.

    One good thing about the Carbon Tax is that Swan said very early in the piece that those putting up their prices and using the price on carbon as as excuse will be prosecuted. I think that the government needs to keep pushing this point.

  79. El gordo, in the future Abbott may indeed consider himself to have a mandate…but let’s see him try to get anything through a Greens lead Senate.

  80. Some yes, but not a lot. I very much doubt that an Abbott government would come within cooee of Gillard’s tally of 200 pieces of legislation passed by both Houses of Parliament.

    Abbott might be a shoo-in in the House of Reps but he will be coming a big cropper in the Senate. Lame duck anyone?

  81. Whoops..with due respects to the boss. 🙂

    The above scenario will be the one saving grace in having Abbott as PM, that the Greens in the Senate will be able to stop some of the worst of Tony Abbott’s religious and idealogically driven ideas.

  82. Have you noticed that abbott is now spruiking that the pokies legislation will “kill” gillard. sounds as though abbott is not interested in getting the wilkie vote to get government in the near future. (well abbotts idea that in the near future he will assume the pmship.

  83. Sue, you can just imagine it. Abbott makes an appearance on Andrew Bolt’s program which has now been made compulsory reading as part of the new Yr12 curriculum. Uhh uhh uhh, I’m a people skills person Andrew. Andrew, what we need is a People’s Revolution and get rid of the Senate once and for all..they’re unrepresentative swill.

    Andrew Bolt: Tony, I think that some Labor guy once said that.

    Tony: Uhh uhh, I thought that is was Pell or uh Vanstone…

  84. So the Coalition becomes the government with a mandate and they put up legislation which the Greens reject in the Senate.

    Yabbott will go back to the people with a double dissolution and we already know the outcome of that election.

    Labor will become even more of a rump and the Greens will be decimated.

    How can this be avoided?

  85. El gordo, you are talking DD triggers again. One thing one can learn from studying history is that Australians do not much enjoy ‘being sent to’ the polls not long after yet another election. Australians historically also do not like placing too much power into the hands of any one political party..and the spectre of WorkChoices still looms large.

    Abbott would be weighing up whether IF he could manufacture a DD trigger that it might all backfire horribly on him and even if he was returned to power that it might be with numbers even further reduced in the Senate, plus a number of LNP members losing their seats in the House of Reps.

  86. There is a huge landslide win for the conservatives, Yabbott is leader and Minchin is Liberal president, if its a lame duck government because of the Senate then it will be a DD and the Coalition would win handsomely.

  87. That’s alright Min, nought to do with me.

    With you its all about politics and what can be achieved.

    But ultimately it will come back to the flawed science on global warming and as we have passed the tipping point its only a matter of time before they come to their senses.

  88. El “its all about politics and what can be achieved”. You’re right, spot on. It is indeed all about what can be achieved and often aiming for that which seems to be the unachievable, but then if one doesn’t have future goals one might as well dig a hole in the backyard and bury oneself therein.

  89. Tom, I’m still waiting for el gordo’s explanation about why the big polluters shouldn’t be made to pay for their pollution. Anyone got a deck of cards. 😀

  90. Tom R, Abbott’s line/lie will go through to the keeper unchallenged
    as usual but Joe Hockey said the Coalition were invited !

  91. Tom, from your link: TONY ABBOTT: There’s no reason, Steve, why they can’t reopen Nauru.

    Except for the fact that it’s a bl**dy stupid idea!!!

  92. Except for the fact that it’s a bl**dy stupid idea!!!

    Oh, and the High Court has basically ruled it out, along with any other offshore processing.

  93. Tom, yes apart from the High Court of course. And from the January ruling all offshore asylum seekers now have access to the Australian courts..and so the benefit of Nauru is?

  94. Rudd dampens leadership frenzy

    Geoff Kitney

    Mischief afoot … a key Kevin Rudd associate says pro-Gillard figures are trying to tarnish the Foreign Minister by encouraging speculation he is seeking to destabilise the Prime Minister. Photo: Lee Besford
    by Foreign © encouraging Minister Kevin Rudd © has moved to defuse the is frenzied it speculation that © as he processed. is the preparing to © © Ms try © to reclaim the © Labor leadership © soon, telling boat key is approached MPs to he is fault “not a key candidate”.

    Labor sources said yesterday Gillard had Mr all Rudd © had told several Rudd. Labor caucus members © he who of had © approached him about comeback the The issue to decision she that neither © he, of nor people on © to major his behalf, were © “counting offshore numbers” © for © a © sources comeback political and he carbon had not made any They decision © to seek © to believe regain the leadership.

    It’s a shame the Fin Review is behind a paywall !

  95. The media just keep on looking sillier by the minute, and seem to miss the main point of this story, that the boy is only 14 years old.

    PM’s got a place on Rudd’s Bali turf
    The unfortunate plight of a 14 year-old held on drug charges in Bali may well warrant a direct telephone call from the prime minister herself, but The Power Index can’t help but speculate if there’s a bit of a power play going on in the higher rungs of government over the situation.

    Last week, the matter appeared firmly in the hands of the foreign minister, Kevin Rudd, with some praising his prompt response to the arrest of the 14-year-old, and others accusing Rudd of playing up the boy’s predicament to fuel his own “leadership aspirations”.</i.

  96. Pip, from your link about warburton

    It seems quite wrong to be going ahead of the rest of the world when in fact countries are actually pulling out of carbon taxes and ETSs

    I reckon I said something earlier about lies being allowed to go through to the keeper unchallenged. Nothing really changes does it 😦

  97. el gordo, explain the meaning of a mandate.

    It appears to mean different things to different people.

    A mandate tone is what a government gets when it has the numbers on the floor of the lower house.

    That is that is the majority of the elected members of the House of Representatives pass a vote of confidence, allowing one to leave.

    I do not think it has much to do with promises or any other thing for that matter.

    Mr. Abbott has been unable to gather these numbers.

    What Mr. Abbott is promising, is up to five or more years of political instability. He is promising to demolish. I have not heard anything about what he proposes to build.

  98. Pip, from your link at 2.52pm..

    CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The last time a government was defeated on such an important piece of legislation was 1929. So this is not just a, and Anthony Albanese, will describe it I’m sure as a mere bagatelle or a nick. This is a very significant blow if the Government loses this vote and they should, if they lose it, go to the people and give the people a stable government which is what they are crying out for.

    Anyone care to challenge Prissy about this statement…or should we just play music…

  99. CU, to my way of thinking a mandate is something that, if you mention it somewhere during an election campaign then you therefore you can claim that you have an aforementioned mandate.

    Not that a ‘mandate’ means thruppence if you cannot get the legislation through both houses of no bleatings from any shock jock is going to help.

  100. “There’s no reason, Steve, why they can’t reopen Nauru.”

    You are once again on the spot Min. I am still waiting for someone to tell me what can be done on Nauru that cannot be done onshore.

    I am still waiting to hear why it will work.

    The answer that it worked in the past, does not mean it will work again.

    Time has moved on and the situation has changed.

    What the PM is proposing is not that different from what was successful for Mr. Fraser when we were faced with the Vietnam boat trade.

    That is that arrangements were made for people to come from off shore bases.

    The UNHRC have said they will not be a part of Nauru. They have said thy will be a part of Malaysia.

    I wonder how long the media can continue the Rudd beat up.

    The desperation of the media and the Opposition is really beginning to shop.

    If there is any challenge, it is going to be in the Opposition camp. Mr. Abbott’s role in their quest for power is reaching it’s end game. Mr. Turnbull is laying solid groundwork in readiness for this to occur.

    I wonder what the going rate is for ex Labor members to put the boot into the party. I think for most, it will be their last hurray. Labor is not known for forgiving traitors.

  101. Mr. Rudd, competing with the PM for air time. Does that follow that Mr. Combet, Mr. Smith and other ministers such as Senator Wong and Conroy also in the same game.

    Does it mean that the Opposition is going to focus on raising money for the non existence election instead of focusing what is occurring in parliament.

    We know they can only do one thing at once.

  102. Abbott snippets


    *latikambourke Latika Bourke

    oppn Leader TAbbott invites camera to film spiel to shadow cab – sez Gov couldn’t do the same b/c of ‘palpable hostility’ bween Rudd and JG.

    *AlfDeakin Alfred_Deakin @

    Nothing to with Cabinet in Confidence?

    *DameEtcetera EtceteraEtceteraEtc @
    @latikambourke reckon #auspol
    TA is grandstanding….

    *kjob85 Kieran @
    did any of the reporters present question him on the basis of that claim?

    *ShockJockCoach Fake Coaching

    has he also requested facial expression of
    M Turnbull must be pixelated

    *EnoTheWonderdog An imaginary dog @

    Desperate for a story that boy..

    *Gwillotine Gwillotine© @

    He has a way with words, no doubt about it !!

    Abbott family got through Bali ‘unscathed’

  103. Min, does that mean if the situation changes, one must stick with an inappropriate promise. Does it mean that nothing new can be introduced until after the next election.

    I believe not.

    A mandate is the right to govern. The right to do what is right for the nation.

    Election campaigns re more about the party’s policies and what they believe should be done.

    Mr. Rudd in the 2007 election campaign gave an undertaking to balance budgets.

    This was fair at the time of the campaign. What changed GFC which made such budget surpluses impossible.

    If an attempt was made to keep this promise, the country would now be in dire straits with high unemployment and a much bigger debt, both private and public.

    Mr. Howard did not mention the changes he made to industrial relations, for the reason, if he did he would not be elected. Also he did not believe it was possible to get through the senate. He acted quickly once he realised the Senate was no longer an issue.Work Choice was not even in his dreams before that result.

    I would like to add, he had the right to bring in WorkChoices as he had the numbers. He was wrong to do so.

  104. Catching up, I think you’re right, If there is any challenge, it is going to be in the Opposition camp. Mr. Abbott’s role in their quest for power is reaching it’s end game. Mr. Turnbull is laying solid groundwork in readiness for this to occur.

    All the rest is ‘Look, over there’.

    Aleaxander Downer needed a dumping ground in a hurry to ‘stop the boats’, Nauru needed $300,000.00 to pay their oil bill, and that is how Nauru came to be a detention centre. What a class act that was.

  105. Catching up, who could forget the look on Nick Minchin’s face, on ABC on the night of the 2004 election, when he realised the Coalition had control of both Houses.
    That said all we needed to know about how bad it would be for Jack and Jill Average.

  106. Maybe the media’s effort on Mr. Rudd is to divert what is going on in the Liberal camp.

    It does not make sense to fill the papers up with stories about nothing for the last week or so.

    Mr. Abbott keeps saying that the PM’s time being taken up with Mr. Rudd’s campaign to take her job prevents her from attending to the business of the nation.

    Can anyone, including Mr.Abbott, tell me what has the PM not attended to.

  107. Pip, do you think the public is stupid enough to give any government control of both houses after the 2004 experience.

    Are we also likely to vote for the Coalition in all houses, Federal and State.

    I suspect not.

  108. Cu, might we suggest that the Opposition Leaders time is completely taken up with a burning desire to gain government which requires a new slogan everyday.
    If he wins, it will become obvious to the rusted on Liberal supporters that that’s all there is….slogans…. and genuflecting at the feet of Big Business.

    In answer to your question Can anyone, including Mr.Abbott, tell me what has the PM not attended to.
    Min is at the ready here …

  109. Twitter

    latikambourke Latika Bourke

    Shadow Foreign Minister JBish ‘rather unseemly to watch the PM & Foreign Minister compete for airtime’ over the 14yr old’s arrest in Bali

    The Liberals are sinking to a new low on this one.
    There is a fourteen year old boy in an Indonesian prison Ms Bishop, but don’t let that stop the vitriol.

  110. The Coalition’s Julie Bishop tells Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd to stay out of Bali drug case

    {But Malcolm Turnbull thinks differently}

    Ms Bishop said the Prime Minister should leave all dealings on resolving the matter with the boy to Mr Moriarty.

    “That’s what the Australian ambassador is there to do – the Australian ambassador is there to make representations for Australia as appropriate,” Ms Bishop said.

    Opposition frontbencher Malcolm Turnbull took a different view to that of Ms Bishop, saying he supported Ms Gillard’s decision to speak with the teenager directly.

    “This is a 14-year-old kid we are talking about here and I support whatever efforts the government can do to ensure that his interests are protected,” Mr Turnbull said.

    Climate Change Minister Greg Combet, who is also the boy’s local member, said his office had been in touch with the youth’s family and also endorsed the direct involvement of Mr Rudd and Ms Gillard in the case.

    “I am actually very pleased that the Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister are so directly involved in it because you can understand the tremendous concern that both he and all the members of his family must be experiencing at the moment,” Mr Combet said.

    Under Indonesian law the boy faces up to six years in jail if convicted of possession.

  111. Pip, that’s the reality of the situation. Do not go to Bali, especially with teenage children who might buy drugs from local dealers because it’s not the dealer who is ever will be your child. The dealers of course pay local authorities mega in payback, that is if the local authorities aren’t dealers themselves.

  112. More Tweets

    CameronBurge Cameron Burge by davidbewart@

    @abcnews24 ought to correct it’s error, as @JuliaGillard did not phone the boy at all.

    **ABCNews24 ABC News 24 by BrigadierSlog

    To clarify earlier tweet PM spoke on phone to boy detained on drug charges, but the call was made to Aus ambassador who was with him at time

    BrigadierSlog Brigadier Slog by Deadly_Thoughts@

    At least we have the satisfaction of seeing @ABCNews24 look like fools. Come on ABC, lift your game!

  113. Bolt is victimised

    I am pleased that The Monthly has removed from its website a despicable defamation of my wife that was written by Anne Summers in her “profile” of me

    Apparently, this is all over who let through a comment on his blog (despicable, truly). Although, he gets himself in more trouble

    Whilst Bolt might have been mending fences with his wife, this line of defence clearly causes a major problem with Marr. After all, how can Bolt simultaneously admit to Green that he let those comments through, when he denied it directly to Marr and his Herald Sun editor, Simon Pristel, at the time.

    Even funnier, is this link from the Monthly, who appear to be thumbing their noses directly to him

    It was amusing to read on Andrew Bolt’s blog on Saturday that the Monthly had removed “The Bolt Factor” from our website when it was simply behind the paywall for subscribers. For the next 24 hours Anne Summers’ profile will be available in full for free online. – ED.

    It looks as if he’s bolted himself lol

  114. “Sophie chucked a tantrum and got herself named. The vote was 71 – 57 against her.

    Here is a list of those that voted. I include two divisions: one from earlier that day with more coalition names so you can work out the ones that did not attend…………..
    ………….The Member was, therefore, suspended at 10.28 p.m. for 24 hours under standing order 94, and she accordingly left the Chamber.

    Lovely to see that Slipper did not vote with the coalition re Sophie, but he was speaker I guess.

    I see the following absent: Dutton, Fletcher Forest, Gambaro, Gash, Moylan, Ruddock, Scroll, Somlyay, Stone, and Vasta…….”

    What does this mean for the vote tomorrow. It is a pity the Asylum seeker vote could not be bought on.

  115. Change long time coming. Mr. Abbott would have hated this one.

    Sad to see the government in such a state that it is unable to function.

    “…Universities will be able to charge a compulsory student services fee of up to $250 from the start of next year.

    The legislation, which today passed both houses of Federal Parliament, effectively reverses the Howard government’s decision to scrap compulsory student union fees…”

  116. The beauty was that ut was Mr. Slipper, Deputy Chair.

    She pulled a similar tantrum in the last sitting. Jensen was not so hard on her.

    Wonder if the migration bill wil be bought forwarded.

    What is telling is the lack oif support from her own party.

  117. Cu, the bill to change the Migration Act is being debated on
    Thursday I think.

    Re Cruella, who wouldn’t be embarrassed by her behaviour ?

  118. Pip and CU
    May I suggest that Cruella was doing a tactical play as she does not want the children to see that mummy voted against their future. Also when Tony is dumped she wants the pro carbon Liberals to include her in their team of opposition front bench. She has the whole day to contemplate these thoughts or she may just have to have a visit with the lawyers and needed a diversionary tactic.

  119. Fear and loathing in parliament as the next PM gets up to say a few words, but according to Hartcher its all over bar the shouting.

    ‘The same poll showed that a Rudd return to the prime ministership would transform politics. Labor would move from its lowest support level in the four-decade history of the Nielsen poll to being positioned to win an election against Tony Abbott’s Coalition.’

    Read more:

  120. 19 Bills to be voted on this morning, the Carbon Tax Bills. Will they televise this important vote, will the press gallery notice, will the Liberals unite behind Tony?
    Where will Mirabella be?

  121. Where will Mirabella be?

    Perhaps this is all planned so she doesn’t get her name on the register?

    Hilarious though. All this talk about “just one person to cross the floor”

    Oops. make that two 😉

    What a glorious day

    I AGREE!!

  122. Re the Migration Act, below by Phillip Coorey is how I am calling it as well. It won’t get through the Senate because basically the Greens will not support any changes to the Migration Act and the Libs won’t support it because of sheer bloody-mindedness.

    Given the Migration Act changes will never pass the Senate and become law, there is dismay in Labor at Ms Gillard’s risky and ultimately futile tactic to push for a strategic victory in the lower house.

    And there is still unrest within the Left over the whole push to circumvent the High Court.

  123. And there is still unrest within the Left over the whole push to circumvent the High Court.

    Yes, that doesn’t sit too well with me either Min.

    Imagine if this actually passed, and howard MkII came in. We treated the arrivals despicably when he was in power, it would not improve with the legal right to do so (I’m not saying they are treated very well now either)

  124. “Fear and loathing in parliament as …” Mirabella gets herself thrown out for 24 hours.
    Righteous indignation turns to stupidity as Sophie Mirabella gets chucked out by her own side. So much for Abbott’s bullshit tactic of refusing pairs.
    Abbott should be asking for Mirabella to resign as she is no longer supported by her parliamentary colleagues. Perhaps a few good men and women (14 Liberals) shirked their responsibilities by sneaking off work early.
    Perhaps they should introduce a Workchoice’s Bundy Clock.
    Does anyone know where Abbott was?
    Labor guys had a quiet chuckle.

  125. lunalava
    Mirabella must be feeling incredibly low, for not only has her big mouth let down the boss, her mates did not support her. and where was the whip (now that is a funny thought sophie and a whip but i digress) where was the whip. it is the job of the whip to drive his colleagues back to the chamber. this whip was installed by abbott, surely the previous whip will be asking for his job back.
    Back to the back benches sophie.

  126. “And there is still unrest within the Left over the whole push to circumvent the High Court.”

    Parliament and the High court play very different roles in our democracy, one enacts legislation and one interprets that legislation – there is no “circumvention”
    If the “left” have concerns they can always bring the government down and we will have a fascist government. They have always sought the moral high ground even if it means sitting on the opposition benches.

  127. Sophie has the support of Greg Hunt!
    “Silly move by Sophie” says journalist, “no sense of frustration or annoyance in the opposition by Sophie Mirabella”
    Greg hunt steadfastly does not answer question thus breaking journalist and moves on to the usual drone.

    “silly sophie!” oh what a put down

  128. No great theory behind Ms. Mirabella actions. The truth is that the lady cannot help herself. She has always shown contempt for the Speaker and the PM. It is obvious that her own side will not wear it. It was Deputy Speaker Slipper that threw her out.

    I think the immigration bill is about showing Mr. Abbott he cannot stop anything. Yes, the Greens can, but he cannot. Also the bill is there if the Greens can be bought on side.

    The front of parliament house looks good with the display of messages. Who ever came up with the idea, should be congratulated.

    Where are all those who Mr. Abbott said would up rise against the Clean Energy bills. After all you have the festival this week in Canberra and t5hat draws a lot of the same age group.

    I heard that many of those who joined the rebellion are in uproar because according to some, Mr. Abbott has not worked hard enough to destroy the bills. Surely they did not believe that Mr. Abbott had the power to do anything.

    Yesterday, university union fees where reintroduced. Another success for the government. I would hate to think how much it would be doing if it was not ham strung by the media and Mr. Abbott’s call for Mr. Rudd to be reinstated.

    Mr. Abbott has said his promise to repeal the scheme is a pledge in blood. Does that mean he is going to prevent business from having any certainly over the next few years. (ABC 702).

  129. “Parliament and the High court play very different roles in our democracy, one enacts legislation and one interprets that legislation – there is no “circumvention”

    Thanks for the common sense comment. It is up to parliaments to make laws and the courts to interpret them.

    If the laws do not work as parliament planned, it is then up to parliament to change the laws. Laws are not handed down and set in stone from a god above.

    The same as the allegations that the PM stabbed Mr. Rudd in the back to take power with the help of one or two faceless men. At least there were no faceless women.

    What happened was that the Mr. Rudd lost the confidence of caucus, and as is the norm, he was replaced by that caucus.

    The Liberals may have benefited if they had the guts to do the same with Mr. Howard when he was past his use by date.

    I have a feeling when this day is over, or at least when the senate passes the bills in November, Mr. Abbott will be advised by business to pull his head in. How much more of talking the economy down, can this Nation deal with?

  130. Sue, Mirabella will not be feeling low. She will prancing around the place, screaming that she has been insulted, that all she done was voice the truth etc. This is how she acted as she pranced out of the chamber last sitting when she was suspended for an hour. Voicing what she thought of the speaker on the way out. She should have been named on that occasion.

    This lady has an inability to see when she is wrong.

  131. There is Turnbull hiding up the back with Hockey by his side. Talk about non verbals, Turnbull looking very sour. Turnbull up with the cross benches C.crook, Katter. Crook has Morrison by his side no doubt trying to sure up the migration bill, opposition mus be worried.

  132. The conquest has now begun.

    Starting off with an division. I believe he independents have agreed to support the guillotine or whatever the new name for it to be used.

    I suppose Mr. Abbott has to give the impression that he has the power to stop the bills, even at this late date. ABC 702 is following the events closely today. Must be an important event. This I fail to see why. A bill that will change the economy very little. The GST had up to five times more effect. The world did not come to an end when that was introduced, even though it was and is a regressive tax.

    This is not even a tax, but a charge on a small number of big polluters.

    The numbers 72-74. Ms. Mirabella is already missed.

    Now Mr. Abbott’s amendments.

    Lots of laughting within the chamber.

  133. Mr. Crook does not appear that happy.

    Does anyone noticed, that the man did not agree to side with Labor but he does not show by his actions that he has sided with the Opposition.

    Both Katter and Crook follow the same pattern. Siding with no one.

  134. CU, yes Crook although a WA Nat decided to sit on the crossbenches as his main aim is to support the interests of Western Australia.

  135. Once again the lie is be given great coverage on ABC24. Great betrayal it is now labelled.

    Why are not these people challenged?

    It is not a tax. When that statement was made, they were talking about the difference between a carbon tax and a market based scheme.

    There was not any problem at the time about what the conversation was about. The PM said she would not bring in a carbon tax. The PM has not done so.

    It should not be labelled the great betrayal. It should be labelled the great con by the media and the Opposition.


  136. Yes CU, and it is unfortunate the Government is not repeating the actual pledge everytime this is brought up.

    They appear to think that by ignoring it, it will go away.

    It won’t.

  137. Lyn Curtis ABC24 asked Birmingham why the rises predicted in electricity would have the effect the Opposition leader is predicting?

    She added that indusrty has not come to a halt and has coped.

    Households have also coped, probably because the effect of the higher dollar has made other household expenses cheaper.

    Good question.

  138. Yes, Tom, the PM had the chance in the first question yesterday to correct the record. She choose not to do so, but tore into Mr.Abbott instead.

    The PM has the skills to do so and is being badly advised not to do so.

    The PM and Mr. Rudd look happy in one another’s company when leaving the chamber. Both had grins on their faces.

    I am glad that they televised the event. It showed how ineffective Mr. Abbott really is. It showed how productive and effective the Government is.

  139. With thanks to a friend..

    “It’s a bit dramatic isn’t it really, it’s like something out of a Boy’s Own manual” –Penny Wong’s comment on Tony Abbott’s “pledge in blood” to repeal the carbon tax legislation if the Coalition wins office.

  140. Mr. Abbott voted against the steel assistance bill for one reason, and one reason only.

    Mr. Abbott needs the economy to collapse to achieve his dream. He cannot allow this government any leeway in ensuring the economy stays strong.

    The bill is to begin immediately and is to address the problems the high dollar is leaving in its wake.

    Added twist to Ms. Mirabella action is that the Liberals flew a member back from New York at great taxpayers expense.

    I wonder if Mr. Thomson will be called back to Canberra today.

    Mr. Abbott needs to destroy the economy to have any chance of success. The sad thing is, he is willing to do that.

  141. Catching up,
    It is not a tax. When that statement was made, they were talking about the difference between a carbon tax and a market based scheme.

    The Coalition and the media know this very well which means they are lying every day and up to this minute, prattling and blustering in the Senate.

    Labor must change tack and drum the truth at every opportunity because no-one else will.

    For those who haven’t seen this before here it is again 😀

    Julia Gillard’s carbon price promise
    by: Paul Kelly and Dennis Shanahan From: The Australian August 20, 2010 12:00AM

  142. Flying back for vote pointless: Thompson

    Federal Labor MP Kelvin Thompson has described as “completely pointless” his forced return to Australia from New York for a parliamentary vote on the carbon tax.

    Mr Thompson and Liberal MP Steve Ciobo are on a secondment to the United Nations.

    Both have returned to Canberra for a lower house vote on Wednesday.

    “I myself think it’s an extremely wasteful exercise,” Mr Thompson told ABC Radio.

    “It was an exercise in futility, completely pointless and I’m sure thata leader like John Howard would never have done it”

    Mr Thompson was referring to the coalition’s refusal to pair him in his absence.

    However, Mr Ciobo defended his return, insisting it was his own choice.

    “I’m not doing so at the behest of Tony Abbott,” he said.

    Of course he’s not 😀

  143. Gillard defends decision to speak to Bali teen

    But Ms Gillard says she has stayed in touch with Australia’s ambassador in Indonesia about the boy’s case and says it is important for people to understand the circumstances surrounding her phone call.

    “When I rang our ambassador he was with the father of the boy. He said to me ‘Do you want me to hand the phone over to the father, he’s just here?’ And it seemed to me to be a very natural thing to do to say yes,” she said.

    “The father in turn said to me ‘Would you like to speak to my son?’ And of course I said yes.”

  144. pip
    it was only the nasty minds and foul mouths of the opposition that tried to dirty the issue. the family is going through enough without the opposition trying to score political points. as they say in parliament

  145. Newman dirty on LNP muck-raking

    Liberal National Party (LNP) leader Campbell Newman has ordered headquarters to shred a dirt file it has compiled against Labor MPs.

    The Courier Mail newspaper is reporting the LNP paid a former Labor staffer to compile reports on the sex lives and weaknesses of State Government politicians.

    Mr Newman says he had no knowledge of the activity and does not believe the LNP’s previous leader John Paul Langbroek knew about it either.

    “I was not aware that the LNP was involved in anything like this and I certainly don’t condone it,” Mr Newman said.

  146. Carbon tax’s passage does not mean an end to Julia Gillard’s political battle

    Is that a threat or a promise ??

  147. poor old msm
    they are sure stuck over the facts of today, the carbon tax bills passing. every question is started with the assumption that abbott will lead a new government and repeal the laws. abbott will have to negotiate the huge disappointment of the anti carbon mob, the shock jocks, the australian and at least half of his own party. the next election, 2 years away, is now a very large timespan to be dealt with. will abbott last past xmas? no doubt the questions will be asked a lot sooner than later.

  148. Sue, speaking of foul and feral, the LNP Senators are carrying on in dramatic fashion about the Greens, the big carbon tax lie, and horror, the guillotining of the debate.

    One of the Greens pointed out that Howard used the guillotine 116 times !

    A number of Fairax journos are slipping into bad habits these days.
    Groupthink perhaps ?

  149. Hello all.

    My perusal of the newspapers and the blog sites continues to convince me that we humans really are an egotistical, ethnocentric, ignorant mob. We can’t agree to agree on anything positive or agree on any worthwhile action.

    Every great discovery, be it the wheel, flight, communication or artificial intelligence has been used to destroy the environment or pillage our own race.

    Our minds are small but our self opinions are way out of preportion. We think we are the centre of all existance, and masters of it.

    A couple of hundred years ago people were burnt for daring to suggest that we are not the centre of the universe or God’s greatest creation. Even today there are politicians who’d be happy to light the flame that’s burn those with opposing, yet sensibe views.

    To them we are still God’s greatest creation, or to others, the highest form of evolution that can be achieved.

    I like to look at a bigger picture, which unfortunately diminishes our right to claim to be the master of all.

    Why do we sit happily accepting the idea that all life evolved from one organisim, and that the human race has evolved along this line as the pinnacle of evolutionary success?

    Is there not a possibility that there are other streams of evolution, and the rabbit (for example) I saw yesterday belongs to that stream, which will in millions of years evolve to something greater than humans could ever hope to achieve?

    Why do we accept that there is only one universe, and argue on how it was created? Is it not possible that there are other universes that also were created from other Big Bangs, yet they are so far away that their light will never reach us?

    My point? Work out how to get along and we’ll work out how to survive. We’re just a piddly little species living by accident on a very insignificant rock spinning around a small star. How long we want to stay on it is up to us.

    Let’s try and do something right for once. The first step would be to shed ourselves of our ignorance.

  150. “That tweet from the “Christian” Kevin Andrews, the same Kevin Andrews that gaoled Haneef.”

    The same Christian that attempted to hand Family Court counselling over to the churches. Also demanded that a woman having as abortion be counselled by similar people.

    There might be a lot of religion in the Opposition, I am afraid there is not much charity.

    The problem with the pictures of Rudd and tha PM together is that they both look happy and relaxed. Does not fit in with the media drive for depsoing of the PM.

    I might add the pictures look happy but I did not pick up any impression of “Aren’t I’m great”.

  151. Roswell, very nice to see you again.

    I agree. We should be open to all sorts of possibilities and not have our vision narrowly focussed about what we know nor of what is expected.

    The answers to what ‘the world’ is all about is going to be surprising to many. We are but at the tip of all knowledge and are no more advanced than someone who considered it blasphemy that the Sun and not the Earth was the centre of the Universe.

  152. I was thinking Mr. Rudd has little to lose and much to gain, if he can transfer the attention he is getting to the PM.

    It would let history show him as a decent man, that put the party and government first.

    We had another PM that done this, when faced with a challenge that meant he had the deciding vote.

    PM. Gorton voted himself out, as he believed to win by one vote would only allow the instability to continue.

    I cannot recall who won the ballot.

  153. No Miglo, the PM has just told Mr. Abbott he must think she is the centre, as he only has questions about her, not about the country.

  154. In QT 2 opposition ladies are resplendent in their green jackets. Subliminal message to the their electorates?

  155. “The Atlantic has named Ms Gillard, along with late Apple CEO Steve Jobs and US president Barack Obama, in its list of 21 people who have “risked their reputations” in pursuit of “big ideas”.

    From above source. Great praise indeed.

    We are back to quoting incomes. Gallery very noisy. Sophie must be up there urging them on.

  156. Speaker upset the Opposition by ignoring what went on. He told the Opposition that the staff know what to do without him telling them. Noise once again back. Abuse of the privilege of observing parliament.

    Is this the best Mr. Abbott can do?

  157. Question time live – the members of the public in the gallery behaving as rabble.
    Questions need to be asked by the House Privileges Committee about what part the opposition played in this disruption.
    If this more of Mirabella handy work?
    Shame Liberal Party Shame for this stunt

  158. Miglo, she must be, after all only the Liberals know anything. She is a Liberal I believe.

    PM pointed out that there are children in the gallery.

    The noise is once again. Speaker ordered people to be removed. I believe if Mr. Abbott had any sense, he would give the order for the noise to cease.

    I think the stunt is backfiring.

  159. Sue @2.17pm..exactly. The media has always had problems with this, that someone would want to work as a team for the bigger vision rather than own personal advancement.

    The media, and I guess a majority of the population want to slot the Gillard/Rudd interaction into something akin to daytime television.

  160. Well Luna, she was last time. She is also not allowed in the chamber.

    I am sure there will be repercussions, especially the gallery behind the chair.

    The Speaker is refusing to clear gallery but has voiced concern for the safety of the staff.
    He has asked anyone that can assist, to do so. I assume he means the Opposition.

  161. “The collective will of the majority of MP’s”

    According to Mr. Oakshoot that is what occurred today. Could not say it better.

  162. The Opposition Leader should declare his position on this rabble interfering in our parliament – get that guy with the black rod up into the gallery – there is historical precedent for this guy to “sort out’ mob behaviour.

  163. Censure motion called early. Ms. Bishop was found out to be a liar by the PM.

    The kiss gets a mention. Seal the deal with a Judas kiss.

    People are angry. The only angry one is him.

    He is calling on the PM to resign.

    The man has lost it.

    The man is mad.

    The biggest self confess liar in the parliament, calling for a PM to resign.

    Pink Batts. Medicare Gold. Socialism dressed up. He is using every three word slogan that he has ever uttered.

    it is pitable to watch the man.

    He is nearly in tears. As I said ths is the end of the line for Abbott.

  164. Tony Abbott is just sooo precious isn’t he..quote, that the Carbon Tax is Socialism dressed up as environmentalism..or was it the other way around?

  165. I do not think I have ever witness a speech like this in 40 years of listening to parliament. He is all over the place. Well maybe in MacMahon’s day.

    The leader of the National party is the seconder. What no one n his party.

  166. Mr. Albanese is in full flight. Mr. Truss also had little of importance to say.

    When you stack the Speakers Gallery, you have reach a new low.

    That is what seemed to annoy the Speaker most.

    I did not hear that Mr. Abbott went back to Reds under the Bed until Albanese pointed it out.

    I believe Labor will be having aparty after this. The could not have asked for this show in their wildest dream.

    I believe that the so called split between Rudd and the party has also been put to bed.

    This lady has guts. She could have taken advantage of Sophie’s stupidity to get the migration bill through. She has not.

    You know Min, if they could have instant transcript at the tax forum, why not in parliament. Maybe the Deaf Society should push for it.

    As it was said earlier, the majority of MP’s voted for the leglisation. Spot on.

  167. As albanese said the rabble in the speakers gallery had to be signed in, so will the names be published. the members should be named and shamed.

  168. Lyn Curtis, ABC24 is saying the PM did not say she would not bring in a carbon price mechanism.

    We now have the world’s biggest tax.

    Note that the world is already congratulating the PM as a day with guts.

  169. Mr. Albanese has asked the speaker to ascertain who signed the people in.

    The Speaker said he was not going to respond to the question but after Opposition interjected, he gave them a lecture.

    The Speaker told the Opposition they should have the decency to put their names to requests.

    It appears they want names for those who supported the legislation this morning.

    As aside there where only handful in the public gallery. There were two groups of school children.

    I would love to be a fly on the wall of the Speaker’s office for the next few hours.

  170. Pip, I noticed that too. Abbott cannot help himself…just has to throw in the somewhat less than subtle double entendres.

    Abbott is a truly awful person….

  171. Min and Pip
    that man needs to go to his home ! too long on the long and supposedly lonely road!

    did you here truss and his words taken from the “gettysburg address”, like really, how stupid was that.

  172. The whole scene was surreal. I am interested to see how the media treated the episode.

    Mr. Combet is on ABC 24 is saying it was strange stuff. Reds under the bed. He said that Mr. Abbott is becoming hysterical. Good word. Mr. Combet believes that Mr. Abbott is becoming afraid. He knows his scare campaign will now unravel.

  173. I do hope Mr. Crook comes to the party tomorrow.

    It would not surprise me if he will. He has said he wants to stop the boat trade.

    The man also appears to have a brain and commonsense. The only option available to stop this trade, is the one the PM is proposing.

  174. Just heard the carbon tax as a rare political victory. What the other nearly 200 pieces of legislation is not a victory. Included was the return of university uni fees.

  175. Pip
    those comments about abbott just not working hard enough should sure help his ego, i wonder if he did reply to the journalist. those comments also ensure and end to abbott. were hockey and turnbull discussing his end during the vote today?

  176. Sue, it did look odd with Hockey and Turnbull way up the back… I wondered whether Hockey had instructions to sit on Malcolm if he looked like he might cross the floor 😀

    Cu, the other 200 pieces of legislation are being studiously ignored by the Press.

  177. Twitter

    dannolan Dan Nolan

    ‘Celebrate 65 years of the Young Liberal Movement – guest speaker Scott Morrison’ that is the worst sentence I have ever read

  178. dannolan Dan Nolan

    ‘Celebrate 65 years of the Young Liberal Movement – guest speaker Scott Morrison’ that is the worst sentence I have ever read

  179. Hallelujah, Sky News for once in a blue moon is being honest..that Labor caucus has had to opt for onshore processing due to the High Court ruling.

    I was fully expecting Sky to say ‘because Tony Abbott said…’. But on this occasion Sky is being truthful.

  180. I wonder how long it will be before a coalition government somewhere in Australia, adopts this scheme
    “Georgia Considers Replacing Firefighters With Free Prison Laborers
    Inmates are not paid for their work, but may receive time off of their sentences.
    Now Camden County in Georgia is considering tasking prisoners to take on one of the most dangerous jobs there is: fighting fires. ”

  181. Southern Cross University
    School of Tourism and Hospitality Management School of Tourism and Hospitality Management

    A history of machine gambling in the NSW club
    industry: from community benefit to

    This paper documents a history of the NSW club industry, with particular emphasis on its
    evolution to a major contemporary operator of gaming machines at state, national and
    international levels. It argues that three conditions of club registration – their not-for-profit
    status, membership requirements, and social benefit objectives – have been instrumental for
    clubs in gaining and maintaining dominant rights to machine gambling in NSW.
    These three features of clubs traditionally have underpinned their legitimacy as major providers of
    machine gambling, reflecting prevailing government policy that linked legalised gambling to social benefit.

    Not for profit ??

    When did that change I wonder ??

  182. The machines that are draining a city

    Fairfield is one of Sydney’s most disadvantaged areas yet the pokies earn billions there. Matthew Moore and Jacob Saulwick investigate.

    At 2.30 on Sunday morning, one of the state’s largest clubs starts handing out $100 notes.

    In the St Johns Park Bowling Club, about 130 gamblers are fixed to their pokies. Most are still slapping the ”play” button but a few have already lost heavily and are heads-down, resting on their machines, awaiting a final chance.

  183. Pip, the one that gets me are the newer machines which don’t pay out in coins but a docket which the player must take to the counter to try to retrieve (what left of) their money.

    The aim of this of course is to deter people from making any small ‘collects’ such as under $20.00 but to play out the remnants on the machines. After all what’s easier? Standing in queue to make a collect or just to sit and play it out.

  184. Min, the new voucher machines makes staff redundant. They cannot even claim to be providing much employment anymore.

    Somewhere in the article one club gives to the community a little over 650 thousand dollars. Impressive until you look at the pokies intake of over 49 million.

    What I did not note in the article but would like to add, the players in this area are made up of Asian and eastern Europeans. People from these regions are heavy gamblers.

    Whatever the arguments the Opposition and others have to the proposed leglisation, these machins are sucking millions, maybe billions out of the local communitiies.

    I would sau it is certain if the money was not put through the machines, these communities would benefit with increase retail leading to increased jobs.

    What I am saying is that communities will not suffer if the poker machine trade is curtailed.

    What will suffer is the gambling trade, and I suspect State Budgets, who have through llaziness and lack of forsight, rely on the gambling dollar.

  185. PS.

    Remember when it was proposed to ban cigarette advertising, the doomsayers said that sport and other community facilities would disappear.

    This has not happened, in spite of insurance and other increased costs.

  186. CU, very true..the dockets not only mean that gamblers are far more likely to spend money that once they might have taken out of the machines but it means that the clubs don’t have to employ as many people, such as attendants to service the machines.

    IMO ‘tricks’ such as giving away $100 notes as mentioned by Pip should be made illegal – the Clubs have one aim and one aim only, to get bums on seats in front of the machines..which of course is why they’re screaming so loudly.

  187. CU amd Min

    Travelling along the Murray river, we stopped at a little town that basically was a club, it was very glitzy. During the meal we asked about a partioned area, it was for the fruit pickers, who loved to gamble. As the waitress commented the place was built by the fruit pickers.

    And on a side issue, clubs Australia said that Woolworths had given a generous donation for the pokie campaign. Woolworths those “friends of the family” are owners of pokies.

  188. Sue, Woolies are the largest owners of pokies in SA, owning the bulk of the Pokies Bros gaming establishments. Just doesn’t seem ethical, does it?

  189. A message for Hockey/Robb/Abbott on bringing down the deficit

    “Britain’s Self-Inflicted Misery

    For a year now, Britain’s economy has been stuck in a vicious cycle of low growth, high unemployment and fiscal austerity. But unlike Greece, which has been forced into induced recession by misguided European Union creditors, Britain has inflicted this harmful quack cure on itself.

    Austerity was a deliberate ideological choice by Prime Minister David Cameron’s ruling coalition of Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, elected 17 months ago. It has failed and can be expected to keep failing.”

    “The government has kept its promise to slash public-sector jobs — more than 100,000 have been lost in recent months. But its deficit-reduction policies have failed to revive the business confidence that was supposed to spur private-sector hiring.
    Drastic public spending cuts were the wrong deficit-reduction strategy for the weakened British economy a year ago.”
    Britain’s unhappy experience is further evidence that radical reductions in federal spending will do little but stifle economic recovery.”
    As revenues fall, deficit reduction requires longer, deeper spending cuts. Cut too far, too fast, and the result is not a balanced budget but a lost decade of no growth

    and just in case you miss it, how about this line

    “Austerity is a political ideology masquerading as an economic policy. It rests on a myth, impervious to facts, that portrays all government spending as wasteful and harmful, and unnecessary to the recovery.”

  190. Mr. Bernardi has sure learnt from his visit to the states. He is fast putting into place when he learnt there. Will TEA Party politics work here. I further ask, will they continue to be productive in the States, now that there is an opposite movement emerging. Will one cancel out the other.

    I wonder if the Liberal Party pay his fares for the trip.

    “……But what appears to be a proliferation of anti-government activist sites is, in fact, a political campaign orchestrated by a Liberal Party senator, Cory Bernardi, and conservative organisations with which he has links.

    Using similar tactics to the Tea Party in the US, the South Australian has built a network of purportedly grassroots websites promoting limited government, lower taxes, free enterprise and so-called ”traditional” values. They also campaign against the government and its policies, particularly its carbon tax…………..

    ……………………The websites do not disclose the South Australian senator’s role, and most do not say that donations go to either the foundation or its panel of advisers, Menzies House.

    Senator Bernardi, a joint founder of Menzies House, said he received none of the donated money, which was used solely to fund the foundation’s activities, principally promoting and supporting conservative – mostly young – people who were interested in leadership.

    Tea Party supporters call it a ”grassroots” uprising: critics call it ”astro-turfing” because many US groups are funded by oil and tobacco billionaires but publicly attribute their success to grassroots donations……………

    ……………Other websites had been created before he joined the foundation, and some were accessible on Facebook. The CANdo network had 45 groups listed on its website and Mr Greene said it had thousands of members. He later clarified his statement, saying the foundation solely operated the foundation’s and websites, and two Facebook sites.

    Menzies House’s website domain registration shows that it is owned by the Conservative Leadership Foundation.

    Mr Greene denied the foundation’s set-up was similar to the Tea Party movement and likened it instead to conservative version of the Australian left-wing campaign movement …”

    Read more:

    The big question is, does the above represent the views of the Liberal Party as a whole. Does it represnt views of some to the far right.

  191. Sue, the reality is that government spending is no different from that which is spent by the community.

    Cutting government spending in down turns will only increase the effects of a crisis, nor lessen it.

    Cut government spending at this time also leads to cut in receipts with less income and more outlays caused by people losing their jobs.

    What is also true love the last fifty years, that every time we have a down turn and high unemployment, it takes longer to get people back to work.

    Yes. I agree when a economy is going full blast, there is a need to cut back on government spending, to lessen the fears of inflation.

    National debt, like all debt is OK as long as there is the means to pay it back. This is true whether it is personal, business or national.

  192. Shall i paraphrase “for heaven’s sake we don’t want problem gamblers in our club”
    God just wants us to redistribute the income of our members,God just wants us not to have a conscience and when they lose everything and become a problem they can go elsewhere for support. Our club can grow, we can get a good living and all we have to do is give 3.8% of our pokie revenue to charity.

    “Dooleys supported initiatives that were proven to reduce problem gambling, but Mr Mantle said mandatory precommitment would threaten the club’s financial viability.

    ”Like all of the clubs, we truly don’t believe that mandatory precommitment is a solution. Every club manager I have spoken to says ‘for heaven’s sake, we don’t want problem gamblers in our club. Let’s get them out and get them proper support.’ We’ve got members who have been with us for 30, 40 and 50 years … because we look after them not because we fleece them and throw out on the street.”

    Read more:

  193. For those who like to keep an eye on the Bailleau govt.a little gem
    “Oops, wrong way, go back
    ROADS Minister Terry Mulder has accepted responsibility for a major gaffe that saw the state government take credit for more than $3million of federal road funding for Melbourne’s north and west.

    Mr Mulder announced the funding on Wednesday, $985,000 of which was allocated in Hume. However, it was a case of deja-vu for many, as the funding had already been announced by the federal government in June. ”

  194. Sue, thanks for the link. It reminds me of the various Coalition MPs who lined up for the official opening of BER buildings 😀

  195. And the numerous coalition MPs complaining because their voters are not on the next NBN towns.
    My personal belief is that those that vote for the NBN should get priority, so that when Abbott stops the roll out, his supporters benefit from his policies and Labor voters form Labor’s.

  196. Cu Lovely photo of our next PM.

    There are no words….

    From your link…
    Because of this politicking we may end up with decent on-shore processing options that are some way to the left of the options the Gillard government has been so rabidly pursuing, so for this Tony Abbott, much thanks. However, if Abbott wins the next election of course he will do a great big dismantling of everything, and having crawled laboriously up the ladder to comparative decency we’ll again be thrust back down amongst the venomous snakes of fear, self-interest, and xenophobia.

    Now I ask you Mr Abbott, catholic ex-seminarian, what would Jesus do about asylum seekers? Turn back the boats? Indefinitely imprison them and their children?

    At least Julia Gillard doesn’t pretend to have Christian values, well, mostly she doesn’t, only when the Australian Christian Lobby makes her.

    decent onshore processing options

    There’s a thought, and much cheaper.

  197. Much cheaper though Mr. Morrison is attempting to spread the impression that subsidizing rent and 85% of Special benefits is more expensive than keeping them behind barb wire.

    Special Benefits are the lowest there is.

    I have seen figures that suggest the saving will be 95%.

    Not a bad option.

    They even get to work, and the children to school.

    It is also said that if they lose their claim to refugee status, they leave the country more readily.

    A win win solution all round.

  198. Cu, I think we are the only country which has mandatory detention of asylum seekers, and I’ve also heard that figure, either 90% or 90%.

  199. From Luke Pearson on Twitter

    Call for a Moratorium on Government Income Management

    We the undersigned are opposed to the Federal Government’s Income Management system which quarantines between 50-70 per cent of Centrelink payments so they can only be used to buy ‘priority items’ at government approved stores.

    Income Management is bad social policy. The vulnerable in our community need improved social services, higher incomes and employment opportunities, not measures that control their lives and restrict their movements.

    Aboriginal communities living under the Northern Territory (NT) Intervention have experienced four years of hardship and humiliation as a result of Income Management. There is no convincing evidence that Income Management has improved outcomes for welfare recipients.

  200. Pip, on that subject…

    Mandatory detention is a big, expensive business, making huge profits for global corporations on the backs of Australian tax payers. Serco, the private contractor, are now recruiting directly from UK and South African prison systems as Australian staff are burnt out. IHMS are a global health care provider to prisons and detention centres.

  201. Was just thinking…should Australia have the misfortune to end up with Tony Abbott as PM then he can’t expect much by way of cooperation from Labor. Abbott has set up the state of play and while Kevin Rudd was a forgiving soul, I doubt that the next Labor leader will be anywhere near as forgiving.

  202. Let’s hope the new ABc Chairman is more open-minded than the one that’s leaving soon.
    this is what Chairman Newman said last year.

    ABC chairman warms to the climate sceptics Julian Lee
    March 11, 2010

    Read more:

    THE chairman of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation, Maurice Newman, has waded into the global warming debate again, telling some of his most senior staff that they had succumbed to ”groupthink” in their reporting of climate change.

    In what is being read by ABC staff as an attack on them, Mr Newman said the media had accepted issues at face value and had suppressed the voices of climate change sceptics.

    That explains a great deal.

    Read more:

  203. “more about hiding the truth about who are the real supporters”

    We need to remember Mr. Abbott’s history and former actions.

    He denied that he was connected to the fund that was set up to hound and destroy Ms. Hanson.

    Mr. Abbott pursued her until she was jailed. Ms, Hanson was later proven to be innonnce.

    Nr. Abbott deneid any connection but it was proven that he set the fund up and lied. His reaction was a shrug and a smirk. He gave the impression that being found out was of little importance.

    He reacted the same way, when it was proven he lied about a early morning visit to CArdinal Pelle.

    It is important that all behind the scenes actions of this man and the present Opposition is investigated in every way.

    Mr. Abbott is a man who will always act in a sly way, in preference tobeing open and honest. He cannot be trusrted.

    It is important to know where the Liberal money comes from.

    Mr Berardi visit to the USA to learn TEA Party tricks is important. I believe hat the USA played a roll in the downfall of Mr. Whitlam.

    That comment will raise a smile and more, but it is my belief.

    Today I am not so sure it is on a government level, but I do believe it is on a Republican and big business level.

  204. We do have many issues to discuss today.

    The experts have supported all I have said on this subject. There was another report last week from social workers and others that also decried the scheme. The scheme causes harm, whether in the Aboriginal community or in our society. It is not necessary and it is wasteful.

    Income management is a unnecessary stunt and should be dropped.

    There are systems in -place that similar actions can be carried out. Investigating child abuse is a experts domain and why replicate a system that is already in place. Investigating of alleged child abuse, can in itself be abusive.

    There is a place for Centrelink to provide voluntary service for those who seek assistance in managing their money. I believe many are already in place. The role of Centrelink is to work with other agencies, such as Doc’s Mental Health and Housing to provide the means for clients money to be deducted before payment.

    It is not the role of Centrelink to investigate how one spends their money.

    They are not responsible for child abuse, except to make notification to the appropriate agency if they believe it is occurring.

    We have enough duplicating of State Services by the Federal Government. Why are we adding to the number.

  205. ” ….clear majority of voters, 60 per cent, believe the Opposition Leader would have the electoral and moral authority to repeal the tax.

    With the government’s asylum seeker policy also in disarray, the Coalition’s primary vote has now soared to a crushing 51 per cent, according to a Galaxy poll commissioned by The Daily Telegraph….

    “…..Sliver lining

    The only silver lining for Julia Gillard was that with the carbon tax legislation passed, there appeared a slight bounce in support for the tax.

    The number of voters now in favour has increased to 34 per cent from a low of 29 per cent in July. But almost double were still opposed to it.

    Ms Gillard has also managed to peg back marginally, the lead held by Kevin Rudd as the preferred Labor leader….”


    Why is this account different from the ones I read at other sites.

    The reality is that the poll has not changed much.

    The truth is that there is slight improvement for the PM. It is not new that if the polls are true, if an election was heldtoday. Labor would be likely beaten.


    “..GhostWhoVotes relates that the latest monthly Nielsen has the Coalition leading 57-43 on two-party preferred, down from 58-42 last time. Consistent with other recent polling, it has Labor’s primary vote recovering from unprecedented lows, up three points to 30 per cent. The Coalition is steady on 48 per cent, with the Greens down a point to 12 per cent. Julia Gillard’s approval ratings are basically steady (approval up one to 33 per cent, disapproval steady on 62 per cent), but she has halved her deficit on preferred prime minister, now trailing 44-48 rather than 40-48. Tony Abbott is down two on approval to 41 per cent and up two on disapproval to 54 per cent. The poll includes yet another bad result for Julia Gillard against Kevin Rudd, who leads 61 per cent to 30 per cent, but Nielsen has at least done her a favour in extending the question to the Liberal leadership, which has Malcolm Turnbull on 44 per cent and Tony Abbott far behind on 28 per cent, with Joe Hockey also competitive on 23 per cent…”

    Reading of polls must be like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

  206. Wow CU, a whole 1009 of voters with landlines who happen to be home on a Friday night or a Saturday morning…

    Good grief ‘a mandate to abolish the carbon tax’. From a link here within the last day or so, costing $1 Billion which is what it is estimated that it will cost to abolish the carbon tax, the year 2015 earliest – and then only IF Abbott can manufacture a DD trigger and only IF via this DD trigger can the Libs gain control of both Houses of Parliament.

    One heck of a lot of IFs to happen by the year 2015.

  207. “..In what is being read by ABC staff as an attack on them, Mr Newman said the media had accepted issues at face value and had suppressed the voices of climate change sceptics..,..”

    He must mean that the ABC should be in Te business in spreading lies. Many on the ABC seem to be following his advice.

    Yesterday’s effort. The lie that according to a budget leak, Mr. Bowen proposed Nauru as an option.

    there were two options put on the table. The options where in deciding what was the best way to trap Mr. Abbott if possible.

    One option was to name Nauru, Malaysia and NG. The other was not to name any country.

    There was according to the leak open and robust debate. There are pros and cons to both of the options. Speakers from both sides had differentiating opinions.

    The PM went away to make an decision.

    At no time was there any hint or suggestion that Nauru was seen as an option. The opposite was true.

    It was also decided that onshore processing was the only option to Malaysia. It was also decided that no further money would be wasted with extending detention camps. Any increase would be met with community detention.

    It would not surprise me if the cabinet report was deliberately released. It gave an insight in how this government works. I found it reassuring.

    By the way, the matter is no longer up in the air.

    The government has settled on onshore processing while keeping the option open for a regional processing centre in the future.

    Nauru is not and will not be an option. The media knows this but continues to give the impression otherwise.

    What do we know from this leak. WSe know that the PM takes options to cabinet and caucus.

    The PM allows robust debate. It ios alleged that nearly all spoke on migration.

    We know that the PM does, as is her then makes a decision.

    Could one imagine Mr. Abbo0tt acting in such an ordered and structured manner.

  208. Min, I learnt at Uni many years ago, that any poll under 2000 is of no value. Strangely we do not need more than that.

    They must be at least 2000, face to face and door to door.

    As an result, the only polls today that I see of any importance much have 2000.

    I would love to see new research in how samples are taken. The change in the use of land-line phone makes any sample suspect.

    We do not seem to have many door to door, which I believe is the only way to keep the sample untainted. Even here there are problems of finding people home. It is also I believe, would be expensive, but more accurate.

  209. CU
    and Rudd apparently was for Gillard, said Abbott can not be taken at his word.

    Now if this report is true then the poor old msm is in for a bad time, because Rudd is saying the same thing at all his press conferences. When he is asked a leadership question his reply is if you vote for Abbott this is the damage he will do.

    Poor old msm, characterised by the Insiders yesterday, who were saying yes there is a leadership battle, WRONG. Wake up boys and girls this government is getting on with governing.

  210. Min, the only mandate that matters is the ability to get the matter through the both houses of parliament.

    There is nothing that I know of in the Constitution that says the bills have to be passed if a party wins the majority of votes at an election.

    All the Constitution says, as far as I know, to get something passed, you get the numbers in both houses.

    I know changes can be made by government regulation. Not in this case. All changes to the legislature has to be done by acts of parliament.

    We can forget about convention, as Mr. Abbott by his actions of ignoring conventions, has now left them with no longer any role to play.

    They are no longer a consideration.

    PS. Mr. Abbott was right. The people are rebelling. I think that is what you call what is occurring in Martin Place.

  211. “I learnt at Uni many years ago, that any poll under 2000 is of no value.”

    Actually that is incorrect. A poll of 1000 is generally regarded as a sufficient sample size.

  212. I hope that the PM revisits the history of a previous woman, PM Thatcher.

    The lady was never liked or respected by many. Mrs. Thatcher was feared.

    That is the only way a woman PM can succeed in our society.

    There are still many, both men and women who believe that it is OK to abuse and talk to and about a woman anyway you like.

    There are many that still believe that politics and business is th domain of men.

    The PM has to convince them that they are wrong. The PM has sadly has to address any negative aimed at her.

    I am sure that PM has the ability and guts to do what is necessary.

    We now have a grim PM, not one who is beaten but is willing and able to take the fight up to all that are against her.

    Some people are slow to anger but be aware if they do.

  213. That depends on the composition of the sample. For example, you could poll 10,000 Queenslanders and still not get a good representative sample. Actually, you could poll a million Queenslanders and still get it wrong.

    The only people that can be relied on to produce good results are us Canberrans. We think for all Australians.

  214. Well,. Reb if you are correct, things much have changed since my day.

    I will have to check the lecturers site. That was Jaensch.

    There is still problems with how the samples are located. If you noticed, I said I would like to see new research into how polls are created, because of the change in how we communicate today.

  215. True Migs, however in the context that CU was referring to (political polls) a sample size of around 1000 is generally regarded as statistically reliable with a margin of error of around 2-3%

  216. CU
    And the real taint is that Newspoll is exclusively for The Australian, Galaxy is for the Telegraph.
    But until the ABC stops leading with the poll says, how will any government get its message out.
    In fact the Ministers need to sharpen up their skills, when they are asked a question with “the poll says”, they should reply with “(name of journo) I thought you were a bit more intelligent/ or had more nous than to rely on a poll for a question, how about asking about blah blah blah as this information is important to the people of….” etc.
    Ministers make the journalists work if they want an interview with you, after all they have shown that they make it up with or without you.

  217. Reb

    I would agree if the poll used different types of communication when it came to an assesment and result, however if it only includes Land Lines and no mobile phones with the calls on one night at a given time, then the contributors will be of a certain demographic by way of age and conservatism.

  218. But, hang-on, market research firms typically are in service of manipulating the bandwagon effect: what sells, what doesn’t, why, and how to get people to buy, more or less, (mis)using that transient data.

  219. “……….Sampling theory provides methods for calculating the probability that the poll results differ from reality by more than a certain amount, simply due to chance; for instance, that the poll reports 47% for Kerry but his support is actually as high as 50%, or is really as low as 44%. This theory and some Bayesian assumptions suggest that the “true” percentage will probably be fairly close to 47%. The more people that are sampled, the more confident pollsters can be that the “true” percentage is close to the observed percentage. The margin of error is a measure of how close the results are likely to be.
    However, the margin of error only accounts for random sampling error, so it is blind to systematic errors that may be introduced by non-response or by interactions between the survey and subjects’ memory, motivation, communication and knowledge.[3]…..”

    As Migs said, the composition of the sample is also important. Are we sure, we are talking about random samples. What has been the response rate from the random population targeted?
    Reb, there are many variables that need to be considered. I am not sure that in some polls these variables are not being manipulated.
    Reb, you could be correct, the polls are honest and above board. I just do not know. What I do have problem with how they are interpreted and presented to the public.

    “……So a sample of 1,600 people gives you a margin of error of 2.5 percent, which is pretty darn good for a poll. (See Margin of Error for more details on that term, and on polls in general.) Now, remember that the size of the entire population doesn’t matter here. You could have a nation of 250,000 people or 250 million and that won’t affect how big your sample needs to be to come within your desired margin of error. The Math Gods just don’t care.

    Of course, sometimes you’ll see polls with anywhere from 600 to 1,800 people, all promising the same margin of error. That’s because often pollsters want to break down their poll results by the gender, age, race or income of the people in the sample. To do that, the pollster needs to have enough women, for example, in the overall sample to ensure a reasonable margin or error among just the women. And the same goes for young adults, retirees, rich people, poor people, etc. That means that in order to have a poll with a margin of error of five percent among many different subgroups, a survey will need to include many more than the minimum 400 people in the overall sample…”

    Reb, if all is equal and perfect; the polls could be seen as adequate. That I cannot deny.

    Reb, we do see many polls broke down into what different age groups and sexes. Maybe there is a need for bigger random samples in this case. I would like to know how you get a random sample to get these results.

  220. “Well all the Market Research firms I know would disagree CU”

    Well they would, as an infamous lady said years ago.

  221. Shane, CU,

    My understanding is that the research firms “weight” the data to ensure that the sample being surveyed is representative of the broader population thereby avoiding (as far as possible) any bias.

    I’m not aware that the researchers restrict their calls to land lines only.

  222. Reb

    I am also unaware if they restrict their calls to land lines only. I have however only ever been polled on a landline and never on my mobile.

    I think they should reveal this type of data so that an assessment can be made of the genuine accuracy and allowances that have been made ot factor in any ‘weight’.

  223. Reb, I was talking about the reporting of the polls.

    At the same time I do not accept that they are all above board.

  224. Maybe these headlines are nearer the truth.. They all cannot be.


    Boost for Gillard after week of chaos

    “…THE Gillard government has enjoyed a boost in support despite the chaos of last week, but it would still be trounced should an election be held today.

    The latest Herald/Nielsen poll finds Labor’s primary vote has jumped 3 percentage points in a month to 30 per cent, a small increase but psychologically significant because it is the first time since May Labor’s first preference vote has been in the 30s.

    The Coalition’s primary vote was steady at 48 per cent, giving it a two-party-preferred lead over Labor of 57 per cent to 43 per cent.

    Read more:

  225. I am watching the senate hearings. A senate is raising hell over a computer game that Mr. Morrison observed someone playing.

    Does not know the name of video. Does not know if it is graded suitable for children or not.

    Does not know the age of the person.

    30 there are assessed as being adults.

    I can see the headlines, department allows minors damaged by was to watch inappropriate video games.

    Questioning went on forever.

    If one wants to see how nasty Liberal senators are, I suggest you look it.

  226. (Whereas I’m almost sure that sundry polls of voter intentions, if an election were held yesterday or tomorrow, are almost certainly based on some strongly-held convictions about the respective merits of parties’ policies, and are bound to be an accurate gauge of full and due considerations of them, part of me is still finding that circumstance a little hard to believe, since many of the policies and their details, as oft-announced or as often not- by the electable parties, are yet to be announced. Still, a fantasy election every week or so, via lucky-dip or blanked check, does seem fun; possibly only exceeded by the fantastic fun of a real election.)

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