Open Thread IX

We’re up to our ninth page already! Keep talking.

Here is the link to the previous Open Thread:

Open Thread VIII

419 comments on “Open Thread IX

  1. And more on Peter Slipper..

    There are also fears Mr Slipper would move to the crossbench if he lost pre-selection.

    The LNP executive will meet either late today or tomorrow to consider the best course of action, including possible retaliation.

    Mr Slipper refused to return calls yesterday after an early morning radio appearance where he admitted he had a missed call on his mobile from LNP state president Bruce McIver.

  2. Luna, I was going to ask might you have a link to the article on schools. I went to try to find it, obviously unsuccessfully.

  3. Sorry Tom, did not noticed I was on the closed site.

    Have I got it right. Qantas wants to outsource all their labour.

    That this will be the last agreement made.

    That all future labour will be provided by by a subsidiary of Qantas.

    This smells very much of what Mr. Reith encourage with Patricks.

    That is transferring all employment responsibilities to a straw company with no money.

    The outcome will be that Qantas will sack all their employees.

    At the same time, they will replace these workers with those from their subsidiary company, by-passing all award wages and conditions.

    Is it also true that Qantas and the media are alleging that the employees are wanting job security, that other workers do not have.

    Is it true, that when firms cut staff, because of bad times, they do not immediately replace the staff with cheaper labour.


    Is what being proposed the same a outsourcing work overseas.

    Is it fair or reasonable to expect workers to accept Qantas plans without putting up resistance.

    Do bosses have any responsibilities to their workers.

  4. Joyce is playing a game with words.

    The decision for the grounding of the planes was made long before the Saturday. Plans were put in place for this to occur.

    The decision that was made on the Saturday, was the actual time frame.

    It is said that all Joyce had to do was to announce he was grounding the planes, and the same outcome would have been achieved.

    Joyce is where he wants to be. Joyce has the government where he wants them.

    No court can tell Joyce how to run his business.

    It is time for the government to look at how workers rights can be protected.

    Is it ethical for bosses to ignore and by-past all workers rights by setting up commercial identiies that strip the workers of all their conitions. Where does safety fit into the new regime.

    Has the employer have the right to change workers conditions, at will, without paying a penalty.

  5. As per the link to Crikey, the long haul pilots union are now calling for a judicial enquiry, and there is also the issue that Joyce may be in contempt of Parliament.

    The Australian and International Pilots Association is today calling for a full judicial inquiry into the circumstances of the Qantas grounding last month, following revelations on ABC1’s Lateline program that couriers were booked to deliver lockout notices prior to the Qantas AGM.

    The report also found that senior cabin crew managers were flown to Singapore and Los Angeles on Friday to provide support on the Friday before the grounding.

    The new ABC reports are consistent with advice received by AIPA that some 3000 hotel rooms were booked in LA ahead of the AGM, seemingly in preparation for the grounding.

    The revelations directly contradict evidence given under oath to a Senate inquiry by Qantas CEO Alan Joyce. Mr Joyce told senators the decision to ground the airline was made at 10am on Saturday, the day of the grounding.

    AIPA Vice President Richard Woodward said today that a full judicial inquiry was now needed to get to the truth of the matter.

  6. Is Mr. Abbott’s last ditch effort while in government finally coming to it’s conclusiion.

    I am still confused why Mr. Abbott bought the hopsital. Anybe his aim was to derail the Tasmania health system. If so, he might have been sucessful.

    “…IT is little wonder that two out of three Tasmanians surveyed online this week by the Mercury wants one of the state’s public hospitals to be closed.

    The saga of this state’s four major hospitals is, quite simply, a farce. There are few better examples of where parochialism, poor decision-making and muddled thinking is sinking Tasmania’s best interests….

    “……But parochialism undermined any prospect of sensible prudent decision-making and the issue became highly politicised during the 2007 election campaign when John Howard offered for the Federal Government to take over the hospital to save it from closure. It just happened that the Devonport community served by the Mersey is in the marginal seat of Braddon. Devonport health workers stood on the Mersey balcony to cheer Mr Howard when he visited.

    Mr Howard eventually bought the Mersey from the state for $1 — not a bad price, even for a hospital that had struggled through a rugged couple of decades. The Mersey had been taken over by a private operator in 1995 before rising costs and staff shortages led to it being handed back to the state in 2004.

    Just how much has all this dithering, grand-standing, politics and plain and simple stupidity cost Tasmania?

    It is an embarrassment. ……..”

  7. Will Mr. Abbott get rid of thhe NBNCo. I think not.

    “Perhaps what has happened over the last four years was that, due to the political confusion surrounding the NBN, some of the local councils dropped the ball somewhat, and this had become clear to them when they noticed that their towns were not on the initial NBN Co rollout list.

    A lot of them have realised that 700 local councils are now trying to convince NBN Co that they are NBN-ready and would like to see the NBN rolled out in their local council area as quickly as possible. And, with typical regional ‘can do’ approach, the councils in Central Victoria are bouncing back with a vengeance, determined to rectify the situation in time for the next NBN Co announcements in 2012….”

  8. More

    “…By the end of this trip I was more convinced than ever that the NBN is here to stay in regional Australia. None of the people I met would be willing to have the NBN taken away from them, and to then wait another five years for a new plan to be developed.

    People are getting it and it is about time we had bipartisan support for at least the vision and the strategy of the NBN. Once you have that agreement you can start looking at how to implement it, and it is there that some leeway can be allowed for differing political positions.

    Paul Budde is the managing director of BuddeComm, an independent telecommunications research and consultancy company, which includes 45 national and international researchers in 15 countries…….”

  9. “STRIKING chicken workers have won significant restrictions on the use of contract and cash-in-hand labour, with Baiada Poultry agreeing to pay temporary workers the same rates as permanent staff.

    The National Union of Workers has said cash-in-hand workers were paid as little as $8 an hour at Baiada in Laverton North”

    Read more:

    And just the other day there were photos of maggots and today management decides that equal pay isn’t such a bad thing.

  10. It is really amazing how fair and caring our employers are.

    They hire a security person to drive through the protest and it is the strikers that are violent.

    I am glad the workers have achieved something, but the are still badly paid.

    Conditions leave must to be desired.

  11. And Gingrich wants to be president. What a visionary!

    “PROMISING ”extraordinarily radical proposals to fundamentally change the culture of poverty in America”, Republican presidential candidate Newt Gingrich said he would fire school janitors and pay students to clean schools instead.

    Speaking at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, the former speaker of the US House of Representatives challenged laws that prevented children from working in certain jobs before their mid-teens”

    Read more:

  12. Sue,
    That would suit the Republicans to a tee. Instead of teaching the kids useless subjects such as english and math they could fulfill their intended roles especially for the poor black kids, they can learn how to be a janitor.

  13. AntonyG
    Meanwhile adult janitors join the unemployed The scary thing in the US is that health insurance is part of the wages. So the now unemployed janitors also lose health care and children with pocket money wouldn’t have to be covered.

    How many trillions is the country in debt and a presidential hopeful wants to drive down wages, raise unemployment and bring back child labour.

  14. Seems unbelievable that in a democracy the party encouraging the rich refusing to give just a little more in taxes to meet the undeniable needs of the less affluent are voted for by almost half the electorate.

    The contrast between Republicans and Democrats is so clear. Why are most Americans not voting with heads and hearts against the greedy self interest of the wealthy?

  15. Cu. Add the Mersey to the long list of Howard failures, and bill 250 passing through parliament, which is another example of Howard failing, where even with a clear majority and in one term both houses to rubber stamp everything he could not manage that much legislation and reform.

    So that means Abbott 1 Gillard 250.

    And the really irksome thing about all these bills going through is that the main opposition party has had no input whatsoever into nearly all of them. It has taken the Greens and Indies to be the scrutineers and amend whilst Abbott and his opposition jaunt around the place looking for photo and media ops so they can say NO without actually doing anything.

  16. Has Qantas got more to hide or were the police getting to close? And the Unions should be asking why.

    “Qantas death threat probe suspended

    A police spokeswoman said on Wednesday that these investigations had now been suspended and indicated this may have been at the instigation of Qantas.

    Police had referred the matter to the Australian Federal Police, but the AFP told AAP on Wednesday, “We are not investigating any specific threats and we never have”.

    A Qantas spokesman would not comment on whether the airline had dropped the matter.”

  17. Sue, difficult to know what happened there. On the surface of it, there were some threats sent but that Qantas has decided to drop the matter. Possibly because the threats were untraceable or were considered to be ‘frivolous’ in nature. So the NSW police were involved but that the NSW police didn’t consider the matter serious enough to refer it to the Feds.

  18. Min
    and the police said they had referred the case to the AFP but the AFP said
    ““We are not investigating any specific threats and we never have”.

  19. It is like all the equipment that bosses claim has been destroyed during industrial unrest. Nothing is said once the disputes is settled. Like the planes that were alleged to be grounded, but proven to be planes that were up for sale.

    Truth is the first casualty when industrial disputes are occurring.

  20. Listening to the matter of MPI. Just heard the Opposition MP say that this government’s reckless spending is putting a upward pressure on interest rates. I thought rates were coming down.

    Some of the adjectives used by the Opposition, including it’s leader are wonderful today, even if they are out in cuckoo land.

  21. It is funny that Virgin can make deals with it’s workers and keep employment on shore while Qantas cannot.

  22. Another cut and run
    or no flights available

    Fly by: Joyce misses second inquiry grilling
    Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has declined the invitation to face a further grilling at tomorrow’s senate inquiry, despite earlier assurances under oath that he was “happy to defend [the decision to ground the airline] and talk about it in any forum, anywhere, because it was the right call”.

    Read more:–misses-second-inquiry-grilling-20111123-1numa.html#ixzz1eVqhvQr7

  23. O’Farrell might state that the Clarence by-election was a normal swing for a first year incumbent government, but I heard this on WIN News last night.

    The swing was the largest ever to a Labor candidate.

    Normal Barry, really?

  24. Attack dog habits alive in SA liberal party

    “DEPUTY Opposition Leader Mitch Williams has played down speculation about his position despite internal party disquiet about questioning in Parliament to Transport Services Minister Chloe Fox over sex charges levelled at her father.

    In Question Time yesterday, Mr Williams asked Ms Fox if she had absented herself from Cabinet discussions over changes to suppression laws applying to people on sex charges.

    AdelaideNow has learnt several Liberals approached Ms Fox to apologise yesterday after the question”.

  25. Comrade Luke Skywalker attacks the Sceptics over Climategate 2

    ‘How boring. What do you learn – these guys hate sceptics guts. This is new? Do wank on.

    ‘What a bunch of frothers. But I guess – just in time for Durban eh?

    ‘and there’s likely to be global earthquakes with so many of you wanking in sync over this – you can feel the harmonic building’

  26. Sue at 7.52
    Interesting that Redmond defended our Mitch. In one sense she was obliged to say something in his defence as his leader, but I thought I caught a whiff of Abbott’s “press on regardless, never say anything good” style.

  27. Thanks for your concern Migs, but I don’t drink.

    Luke is an ol’ sparring partner at Marohasy’s place and as nobody here is looking at this FRAUD close up I thought Luke could speak fer yah.

  28. That’s not speaking for anyone el gordo, not even himself, and nobody need speak for us but us.

    And again you state something that has not been proven, has been put out there by the same people who screwed/falsified all the last claims of frauds, with the major one being cleared by three independent enquiries no less, and given no evidence, as a categorical fact.

    It keeps throwing you into the shit your inviolable statements of certainty that inevitably turn out to be crap. You must like wallowing in folderol.

  29. ;…with the major one being cleared by three independent enquiries no less…’

    White washed.

    ‘…your inviolable statements of certainty that inevitably turn out to be crap.’

    Like…regional cooling has begun?

  30. that every single one of the 9 separate Climategate investigations has exonerated the climate scientists

    Media Already Botching Reports On Hacked Climate Emails

    I’m surprised the denialiti are even bothering with this opne. These are the ‘b’ grade emails, and the ‘a’ grade ones were piss poor.

    Although, hopefully it will provide another clue for the cops to track down hte perpetrator

  31. ‘Brisbane, hottest driest November since 1919.’

    Because it happened previously (at the end of WW1) we can rest assured it has nothing to do with AGW.

    Natural variability rules, then and now.

  32. ‘…your inviolable statements of certainty that inevitably turn out to be crap.’

    lol, and then it provides an example of that crap for you

    too funny

  33. ;Although, hopefully it will provide another clue for the cops to track down hte perpetrator’

    The Norfolk Constabulary are no closer to finding the perpetrator.

    “Now two years on, we are reviewing the outcomes of the enquiries so far with a view to making a decision about the future. Yesterday’s release of further information has given us fresh lines of enquiry to follow up.”

    ‘Det Supt Gregory confirmed that his team had been assisted in the early stages by the Metropolitan Police, who had provided valuable advice and guidance in the early stages of the investigation. The team has also received ongoing assistance from the National Domestic Extremism Unit.;

  34. Well another NSW ALP MP is in front of the ICAC. Seems like a never ending line of corrupt ALP politicians. Beats me how they stayed in govt so long.

    “THE NSW corruption watchdog has been told former energy minister Ian Macdonald accepted sexual favours in return for showing preference to an electricity contractor.

    Counsel assisting Geoffrey Watson told the Independent Commission Against Corruption this morning that women were provided to Mr Macdonald at the Tuscany restaurant in Sydney’s west on July 15, 2009.

    A number of young women were allegedly presented to Macdonald so that “he could take his pick of those ladies” by Ron Medich and Lucky Gattellari who were associated with electrical contractor River Corp.

    Mr Macdonald had arranged meetings between Mr Medich and Mr Gattellari and senior executives of state owned electricity companies.”

  35. Should be good. The PM has chosen to stay in the parliament today. I take it that she is going to give him a serve back.

    The PM said that Mr. Jenkins came to her at 7.30 this morning.

    she she she

    Abott looks uncomfortable that the PM has stayed to listen.

  36. A new era. Warning to Abbott. Mr. Jenkins has also warned him more than once. How many kicked out so far.

  37. Tell Treasurer Swan: support homelands in the Federal Budget

    The government is currently deciding whether they will fund essential services on Aboriginal homelands in the next Federal Budget.

    Nearly one-third of Indigenous people in the Northern Territory live on homelands. Research shows that with proper services, people can be happier, healthier and live longer and on homelands.

    Despite this, current government policy to date has been to strip funding from essential services on homelands – effectively forcing people into hub towns and cities.

    The government has repeatedly claimed that it supports homelands. Now they have the chance to prove their support by funding essential services on homelands in the next Federal Budget.

  38. As pointed out today, Victoria has not legislated OH&S reforms as agreed through COAG. If not legislated by 1/1/12 Victoria misses out on $50million. Bailleau doesn’t mention that issue when the “Treasurer warns of pain to protect budget surplus”

    Victoria is set to be hit by further deep budget cuts to preserve the surplus and stabilise debt as the softening property market and global uncertainty hits the state government’s bottom line.

    Read more:

  39. Today’s Herald Sun gives a lesson: How to Run A Fear Campaign in One Easy Lesson.

    THOUSANDS of asylum seekers are expected to flood the suburbs as the Federal Government rolls out bridging visas allowing boat people to live and work in the community and collect welfare.

    Ah well, sure beats the bogans, the rapists, the drunks and large women slapping their kids in the supermarket.

  40. So the Murdoch media continues to spread the dirt. The truth being “Will Protection visa applicants be able to access Centrelink benefits?
    No. People who hold a Bridging visa are not eligible for Centrelink benefits while awaiting a decision on their visa or review application.”

    This quote comes from a reliable source of information I would consider.

  41. Pouring and 14 degrees here in Albury. Two hours ago it was 27 and sunny in Gundagai. I’ll be catching up with Roswell for a few drinks later. I haven’t seen him since he left Canberra last year. Might be a big night. 🙂

    I’m in a red wine mood. The urge is unstoppable.

  42. Min @ 4.07pm,
    Ah well, sure beats the bogans, the rapists, the drunks and large women slapping their kids in the supermarket.

    I’d add, the snotty-nosed journalists who wrote that rubbish.

  43. Pip, plus according to AntonyG’s link to the Department of Immigration and Citizenship..they also LIE! 😯

    The Herald Sun specifically said “collect welfare” but according to the Department’s Protection visa applicants information they are “are not eligible for Centrelink benefits”.

  44. Antony G, thanks for the link to ‘Bridging Visa’.

    Min,. it’s no surprise that the journalists are loose with the truth.
    They rarely let it get in the way of their agenda !

  45. I’m a little late with this one, but this one is for White Ribbon Day..ostensibly White Ribbon Day is supposed to be to stop violence against women, however not often recognised is the fact that men are also often victims of domestic violence, both physical and psychological.

  46. What’s love got to do with violence ? Absolutely nothing.

    What has power and controi got to do with violence ? Everything.

  47. Tina Turner was of course a victim of violence, both physical and psychological. Ike treated her like shit but of course he loved her.

    Yes, that’s it of What’s love got to do with it, it’s all about power and control.

  48. DV is about power and sense of ownership. It is not about love.

    Yes women can also be violent, but it is rarely about power.

    Men can and do walk out. Some woman find this hard to do.

    Not all men bash women. The problem is that women cannot solve the problem.

    That is up to men.

  49. CU, I agree with you there..power and a sense of ownership plus a sense of entitlement.

    But that is not about men and power, it’s about the personality of the person and power. Men are just as likely to be victims of psychological abuse as women, but obviously far less likely to be victims of physical abuse.

    Men are clearly also far less likely to report any form of domestic abuse, so the stats on how many men are affected are completely unknown. It would be guesswork at best.

    Agreed, men have the financial freedom that many women do not possess. Women are also more than likely to be the primary caregiver and although some women do walk out on their children they mostly do not walk out due to this responsibility.

  50. Ceding the fat of the land

    CLIVE PALMER loves to throw his considerable weight around. He will do anything to keep his bull market in the China shop.

    After Palmer’s de-Rudding the government over mining taxes, a compliant Gillard team allowed Palmer and his greedy partners to gouge even more earth out of the ground and gouge even more profits from the trough. Miners believe the Earth and its assets are limitless and a carbon tax that would attempt to equalise what he takes from the world with what we put back into it, is a threat to civilisation.

  51. They say that a person is known by the company that they keep…

    “…I believe I have no choice, I fully believe it is right, this is my choice, my free will that I ask Jesus Christ for the solution to the Illegal Asylum Seeker Boat Smuggling dilemma! So every night and every morning, I will pray to Jesus Christ, Stormy Waters & treacherous seas, before the Asylum Seekers get the chance to arrive on Australian shores. Spiritually it’s the right thing for me to do, as a humble servant to Jesus Christ,

    I must regularly pray for this necessary tragedy to occur, many Asylum Seekers must die at sea, in order to create the solution to the dilemma, in order for Juliar Gilhard to have blood on her hands as P.M. I fully believe Jesus Christ will do my will. I hope other people will strongly consider to pray the same. Jesus loves his people, he will reward them with solutions to serious dilemma’s…”

  52. Is Qantas, who thinks it has been holding a winning hand, about to fold at FWA?

    There is more to this story than what we have now

    “Qantas Airways is set to shelve plans for a new premium airline in Asia as global economic turmoil shakes management confidence in the project, The Australian Financial Review reported without citing any sources.

    The Asian carrier plan was aimed at using the region’s low cost workforce to turn around Qantas’s loss-making international operations but sparked an union backlash

    The Asian carrier plan was one of the reasons for strikes by parts of the workforce. Strikes led to Qantas grounding its entire fleet last month in a drastic move aimed at ending union action.

    That sparked a government intervention and involvement of Australia’s industrial umpire, which gave the warring parties 21 days to resolve differences or submit to binding arbitration.”

    Read more:

  53. On Qantas, the following

    “Qantas has revealed the recent industrial dispute wiped $194 million off its bottom line in the first half of 2011-12.

    That statement implies it was a union action when in fact it was Joyce’s action, supported by the board, that cost Qantas, hence it should be rewritten to say
    “Alan Joyce says his personal action in locking down the airline has cost $194 million.”

    Read more:

  54. Pip

    the grounding of the fleet probably saved on fuel costs. Unless of course jetstar fuel is paid by qantas.
    where are the forensic accountants when you need them.

  55. Pip, highly recommended reading. Some might say that the great failing of this government is the Malaysia solution. I disagree, the great failing of this government is it’s failure on the issue of marriage equality. As the author of the open letter concludes:

    Now is a time to lead. You can help us, Ms Gillard. You can make a grand gesture that tells everyone in Australia we are not broken. That we, are part of the ‘us’. That whatever this erratic dishwasher we call life brings us, we’re in it together.

  56. Min, “That we are part of the ‘us’ “.

    I would like to see that apply to this other very important issue.

    Jacob Zuma opens Durban climate negotiations with plea to delegates

    The South African leader urged diplomats at the international climate conference to look beyond national interests for solutions

    Global warming already is causing suffering and conflict in Africa, from drought in Sudan and Somalia to flooding in South Africa, President Jacob Zuma said Monday, urging delegates at an international climate conference to look beyond national interests for solutions.

    “For most people in the developing countries and Africa, climate change is a matter of life and death,” said the South African leader as he formally opened a two-week conference with participants from more than 190 nations.

  57. Pip, indeed. While we Australians whinge about an extra 10 cents on the price of a lamb chop, here are the consequences for other countries.

  58. I wonder whether any federal politicians have read this blog?

    Stop the NT Intervention

    Welcome to the STICS website!

    STICS (Stop the Intervention Collective Sydney) is an open collective of Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people committed to the repeal of the NT Intervention and the struggle for Aboriginal self-determination.

  59. Turnbull backs alliance with China

    FORMER Liberal Party boss Malcolm Turnbull has rebuked Australian political leaders for mimicking the Obama administration’s tough security posture in the region at the expense of our biggest customer, China.

    His comments in Melbourne last night were sharply at odds not only with those of the Gillard government but also with those of his own party leader, Tony Abbott, who deposed him two years ago.

    ”The Australian government needs to be careful not to allow a doe-eyed fascination with the leader of the free world to distract from the reality that our national interest requires us truly and not just rhetorically to maintain both an ally in Washington and a good friend in Beijing,” Mr Turnbull said at the Sir Edward Dunlop Lecture before a large Melbourne audience.

  60. “Whenever a man has cast a longing eye on offices, a rottenness begins in his conduct.” -Thomas Jefferson

    Looking at Tony Abbott….

  61. Pip
    From the above “a doe-eyed fascination “, is Turnbull also suggesting there is a sexual desire influencing the PM. That is all we need yet another Liberal leader voicing sex stereotypical language.
    Well here’s some of my voicing “these guys haven’t got the balls to take the PM on “, or “they are not man enough to take on the PM” or “what pathetic little men they are” or even better still “why not try voicing an argument as though your opponent were a man.”

  62. Sue and Pip, my thoughts too. Turnbull is suggesting that because the PM is somehow so enamoured of President Obama that ‘the little woman’ couldn’t possibly be thinking straight. And of course the PM needs a man such as T’bull to pull her into line to point this fact out to her.

  63. An article on Qantas. The move by Slipper could have an effect on Qantas plans if these word ring true

    “With the industrial action now looking like it is under control, the company has worked out that its draconian measures, which made a mockery of the Fair Work Act, may have caused it irreparable damage with the Gillard government; but, with the polls going the way they are, it won’t have to wait too long for a friendlier, new Coalition government.”

    Read more:

    How about 2 years Mr Joyce and what will be the effect of Mr Joyce making himself unavailable to front the Senate Committee last week.

  64. Sue there have been a slew of Ltd News articles in this vein lately. They all have one thing in common and that is the Gillard government is in dire straits and irreparably damaged somehow. They also intimate that the only ones who can fix a damaged Australia is an Abbott led government.

    Talk about living in another dimension and/or reality.

  65. According to Mr. Abbott we should only concentrate on educating brilliant children.

    Is he asserting that to educate all to the best of their ability is a waste of time and money.

    I would agree that there use to be little sense in children that were not academically inclined going onto year 12 many years ago, when the emphasis was on academic outcomes alone.

    This is not true today. Years 11 and 12 are now geared to the needs of all children, not only those wishing to go onto university.

    Yes, there are a number, too many to be sure that stay at school for the money. These children, more than others need the help and support to see them through to they mature, and become one hopes worthwhile members of the workforce.

    This is a shame, but even these children gain from the experience.

    It is better that they are forced to school, than sit on their backsides before a TV or X-Box all day.

    The answer was never for these children to leave at year 10 but to change the school curriculum to meet their needs.

    There are very few jobs available for those with less than year 12 education.

    A clever country needs to be clever in how it educates and trains their children. That means it must aspire to train and educate all to the limits of their ability.

    We need to do this, to ensure high productivity down the track.

    Education is not only for the brilliant.

  66. Mr. Abbott say he does not believe that the Europe crisis has anything to do with the Australian economy. According to him, it is all Mr. Swan’s fault that we do not have surplus. Mr. Abbott said it is not Europe’s fault that Mr. Abbott has a problem.

    Mr. Hockey said that if Mr. Swan does not take into account what is happening in Europe, our economy is at risk.

    My question is, who is correct?

    Maybe the Opposition is just having a bob each way. An opinion for all seasons.

  67. “better still “why not try voicing an argument as though your opponent were a man.””

    and just go easy on the “she”.

    PM can be used now and then.

  68. CU, and it is not as Abbott stated ‘the right sort of kids’ but that all children should be given equal opportunities to study and train, and to the fullest extent of their capabilities and interests. To this effect the government established the Trade Training Centres in Schools Program.

    The Program allows secondary students from years 9 – 12 to access vocational education and training through TTCs to give them a broader range of options so as to improve Year 12 retention rates and enhance pathways into vocational careers. TTCs are also helping to address national skills shortages in traditional trades and emerging industries.

  69. “The Australian government needs to be careful not to allow a doe-eyed fascination with the leader of the free world ”

    What description does one give all those Opposition MP’s and their staff clamouring to get near the President in Parliament. It could not be hero worshipping, could it.

    What is doe eyed for a male.

    Of course Mr. Howard did not adore Mr. Bush, who made him his deputy sheriff.

    Was the PM expected to bw rude and give him the Bishop stare while in his presence.

  70. Min, we need to be very careful that we do not go back to the fifties and sixties where we streamed children at a young age into technical and academic education.

    This meant that many children where denied the education they were capable of.

    Secondary education needs to give all children the chance to have ongoing choice and the chance to experience all that education can offer.

    Secondary education where we teach children how to learn and prepare them for life.

    Tertiary education is where one learns the skills to survive in the work force.

    In this post industrial age, one must be prepared to accept that education is a life long endeavour.

    We do not learn a trade or skill that equips us for a life time job.

  71. CU, hence the reason for Trades Training Centres to be part of High Schools.

    Mind you, not all schools have a problem with ‘streams’. For example, I am the proud owner of a very nice leather covered footstool, kitchen steps and the obligatory spice rack all courtesy of youngest daughter Erin in Years 9 and 10. Erin is now completing her PhD in molecular bioscience.

    Previously in some states/areas children who were not academically minded or who considered at the time that they were not, had no other option but to leave school in order to pursue a trade. If these children can be kept at school but still able to continue with their vocational interests it gives them the opportunity to make up their minds.

    One difficulty in keeping children at school until Year 12 minus any other options is that those who are not academically minded become disruptive in the classroom plus experience continual failure. On a purely practical note, many children turn 18yrs during Year 12 and so are unable to obtain an apprecticeship due to having to be paid adult wages.

  72. “streams’. For example, I am the proud owner of a very nice leather covered footstool, kitchen steps and the obligatory spice rack all courtesy of youngest daughter Erin in Years 9 and 10. Erin is now completing her PhD in ”

    That is why I am in favour of allowing kids to begin an apprenticeship in school. If they find it not to their liking, little is lost. This is not necessarily true when one gets an apprenticeship with a employer. There is lost of face and time, to both the child and the employer.

    Kids need the opportunity, in a safe environment, to find out what they excel at.

  73. CU, especially given that the rules have changed a lot since the ye olde days. I believe that once upon a time an employer had to attend the Indentured Apprentices Board (or similar) and give good reason for the termination of an apprentice’s employment.

    These days the newspapers are full of advertisements for 2nd year Chef – 3rd year plumber, needs to complete training.

  74. It seems that this is what Tony Abbott was arguing about, this is in spite of the Liberals having supported the bill. Abbott just cannot help himself, even when he agrees with something he has to argue about it 🙄

    The government was yesterday talking up an incentive to keep students at school. The election pledge will be delivered through an income-tested boost to the existing Family Tax Benefit, worth $770 million over five years, and will give low-income families up to $4000 a year if their child, aged over 16, stays in school or a vocational equivalent such as a TAFE course.

  75. What will ltd news make of the fact that all three ratings agencies have rated Australia AAA ??

    They are all wrong, obviously. Just ask hockley 😉

  76. Tom R,
    Hockey is accusing the government of ‘budget gymnastics’ which is more than a little bit rich given that his own clumsy budget costings assumptions gymnastics are still under investigation !

    I’m beginning to suspect that the Chartered Accountants investigation has been put in the deep freeze in the hope that it will be forgotten !

  77. Pip

    I cannot see Hockey being any good at gymnastics and as for budgeting well the only 3 grade ratings the opposition is achieving, is a three way argument , between the shadow treasurer, finance and leader.

  78. Check out news ltd, true to form, give the editor a bonus

    Crying baby picture with the heading
    Family Squeeze:
    Baby bonus hit to get back to surplus

  79. I’m intolerant of stupidity.

    Yesterday at the club I ordered an egg and bacon roll. It was 11:15 am.

    The young lass said: “Sorry, but we don’t serve breakfast after 11am”.

    I responded: “Well I’ll have it for lunch then”.

    Her reply was again that they couldn’t do it.

    It was a bitt confusing, given that it was OK for me to order a hamburger with egg I was under the opinion that the chef wouldn’t have a problem to make an egg and bacon roll. A point I made known to her.

    She then said that I could have a toasted egg and bacon sandwich.


  80. Migs, maybe you could have ordered a bread roll as well as the sandwich – swapped the egg and bacon into the roll, handed back the sandwich bread then asked for a refund.

  81. Min, I was staying on Norfolk Island with a friend who is an extremely healthy eater and our meals were, in my opinion, very boring.

    One lunch time he had business to attend to so I raced up and grabbed a hamburger.

    When we caught up he asked what I had for lunch.

    I told him the truth. I had a piece of lean beef with some some locally grown salads and a small bread roll.

    He gave it his tick of approval. 🙂

  82. Migs, it’s all in the description isn’t it ..lean chicken lightly pan fried served with tomato concassé and freshly grated cheese Romano 🙂

  83. Me @12.02

    News have decided to improve the headline . it now says with crying baby

    Cradle Rocked

    wah wah wah What will it be by dinner time!!!!

  84. And here’s one about one of my least favorite people..good old Twiggy Forrest:

    A GROUP of Aboriginal elders in the Pilbara have clashed with security guards working for mining magnate Andrew Forrest at the Fortescue Metals Group Solomon Project mine.

    The Yindjibarndi Aboriginal Corporation elder and chief executive, Michael Woodley, travelled to the Firetail mining lease on Friday to record the impact of a blasting project on sacred burial sites but said he was refused entry and told carrying recording equipment onto the premises was against company policy.

  85. You would think with an election due next year that the LNP would turn up to work, but apparently not, instead they blamed Bligh. Maybe they are confident because of the polls.

    “THE LNP has been denounced as Australia’s laziest Opposition after only one member was this afternoon present in State Parliament as laws were passed.
    Premier Anna Bligh said the Opposition had failed their constituents during one of the most “embarrassing parliamentary performances” in Westminster history.
    “They are not fit to sit on the opposing bench let alone fit to sit on the government bench,” she said.
    Ms Bligh said the LNP were “too lazy” to debate the Bills, adding: “The question is, where were they? What was more important?”

  86. A pleasant little remark and result in today’s Budget announcements

    “p.s. The Tax Forum has paid very handsomely for itself. Attacks made there on companies getting tax deductions for housing CEOs in harbourside penthouses played a role the decision to reform the tax treatment of living away from home allowances and benefits. Treasury thinks it will raise $682 million over the next four years”

    Read more:

  87. And guess what has really Rocked the Cradle and having those babies go wah. wah, wah. Abbott, Hockey and Robb are crying because all 3 ratings agencies have given the Gillard Govt AAA, the First au govt EVER

  88. Hopefully this one will receive the go-ahead. Low In Fat reads the label written Bold..pity about all the sugar tho’…

    TRAFFIC light food labels are expected to get a qualified go-ahead from the federal government in the face of fierce opposition from the food industry.

    The government is likely to announce its stance ahead of a federal-state food ministers’ meeting next week, which will finalise the response to the recommendations for traffic light, or some form of interpretive labels giving simple ratings on levels of fat, salt and sugar on the front of food packaging.

    The Gillard government is believed to be revealing its position early in the face of uncertainty as to how the states, and particularly Coalition governments, will line up on the issue.

  89. Min, it will be a big win if it happens, but after Grocery Watch and Fuel Watch were shafted by the big end of town I’m not holding my breath.

  90. The mining companies don’t seem too worried about the economy.

    Investment in mining soars to record levels

    Investment in Australia’s mining industry has reached record levels, soaring 34 per cent in the past six months.

    A new report from the Bureau of Resources and Energy Economics has found committed investment in major mining projects now sits at almost $232 billion.

    Most of the capital is in the oil and gas, iron ore and coal industries.

  91. Just found out why youngest has been a bit quiet..apart from the almost completed PhD in molecular bioscience, has just announced Graduate Certificate in Technology and Innovation Management at UQ, 3 Distinctions and a Credit. I knew that Erin must have been doing something in her spare time.

  92. Thank you Mobius, I’ll let Erin know. Not bad for a kid who graduated from Mullumbimby HS with very iffy marks and quit uni after 6 months.

  93. Let’s hope that Wong and Barr can get the numbers…

    THE Labor Party’s two most prominent gay politicians – one from the Right and one from the Left – will spearhead the push for marriage equality, as Julia Gillard struggles to maintain her authority on the issue.

    ACT Deputy Chief Minister Andrew Barr, from the Right, will move and federal Finance Minister Penny Wong, from the Left, will second a ”Rainbow Labor” motion at this weekend’s ALP conference declaring that Labor ”will amend the Marriage Act to ensure equal access to marriage under statute for all couples irrespective of sex”.

  94. (Speaking of national platforms and whirdings, the 2004 amendment to the Marriage Act was purpose-designed to avoid the possibility that a more general, less narow definition would already allow equal access to marriage under a nascent non-discriminatory interpretation; the latest proposed amendment, to explicitly re-extend that potential, seems to remain a creature of statute; and one wonders whatever happened to that Australian Bill of Rights, to oversight the principled argy bargy of Parties and Parliaments, and their products, on behalf of (un)equal persons subject to the consciences of the elect.)

  95. I have a suggestion.

    Since the title banner is now rotating through many cafe scenes how about people contribute cafe scene banners.

    The banner needs to be 760×190 pixels and I have found the PNG format the best. I will contribute another one today.


    Now why isn’t that the headline banner across all media, it certainly deserves it and what is Hockey’s pathetic line on the matter of lying to the Australian electorate. Check out the weak question to the LIAR

    “Asked whether he had been wise to call their work an audit, he said: “I’m not getting into it, mate.”

    Read more:

  97. That’s a good suggestion, Mobius.

    BTW, do you like the idea of the rotating banners?

    I’m worried that it might slow down the site when accessed from a phone, so that’s one to keep an eye on.

  98. And to think the NSW government (thanks to John Howard) is ahead of Scotland Yard.

    “Scotland Yard plans to buy water cannons
    Britain’s biggest police force is exploring the possibility of buying the country’s first water cannons which could be used against protesters at future disturbances, a report into the riots has revealed”

    Hey Barrel how about a sale

    “for sale 1 water canon never used”


  99. I do like it Migs and it works for a theme like cafes on this site. I don’t see it working for all blogs though.

  100. I had great respect for Joe Hockey and considered him very honest.

    Sadly this has been proven incorrect and it appears there may have been collusion between the accountants and the opposition in the manner of the costings and the wording of the accountants comments attached to those costings.

    Seems big business will do anything for the conservatives.

  101. To be only a little fair to that accounting firm they did exactly what their client, the lying Liberal party, told them to do, which was produce a set of preordained numbers in a spreadsheet. They were not asked to do an audit, it was conniving Hockey and the Liberals who called it that.

    But the regulations for accountancy are quite clear in that they must calculate and present the figures as they really are, not publish made up numbers given to them by their disburser.

  102. From your link Sue

    In fact, the document was the result of a carefully worded agreement between the accountants and the Coalition to produce work primarily ”not of an audit nature”.

    An audit would examine the assumptions used by the Coalition and whether they were reasonable


    liable to face disciplinary action because their report failed to contain “a statement that the procedures performed do not constitute either an audit or a review” and so failed to properly describe the limited nature of the agreed-upon procedures.

    Not only did they lie to the Australian public, it now appears that they actually went out of their way to conceal this lie.

    The silence at ltdnews will be deafening.

  103. But still, the accounting firm did have the option to say no.

    A Treasury examination of the Coalition’s 2010 costings found errors including double counting and questionable assumptions amounting to $11 billion.

    $11 billion amounts to a pretty nifty piece of ‘double counting’ and ‘questionable assumptions’.

  104. “The two Perth accountants who costed the Coalition’s 2010 election policies breached professional standards and will be fined, a disciplinary tribunal has ruled.

    The ruling is an embarrassment to the Coalition which claimed during the campaign the costing was “as good as you could get anywhere in the country, including in Treasury.” In recent months it has threatened to use private accountants once again.

  105. And they wonder why we believ in Unions. This is a classic abuse of the system by greedy employers and the workers have been left without any money. Unions Boo Boo Boo ( what a crock of shit)

    Government must act to protect holiday pay: Bandt

    Greens workplace relations spokesperson, Adam Bandt, has called on the Federal Government to close a loophole in the Fair Work Act that allows employers to pay their workers nothing during their annual leave.

    The call follows a 2-1 decision of Fair Work Australia that saw seven unrepresented employees lose their right to paid annual leave, with their four week breaks now going unpaid.

    “This is an un-Australian decision,” Mr Bandt said.

    “Everyone should be entitled to paid annual leave as a matter of law.”

    “If annual leave is unpaid, there’s a real risk that people won’t take it. That would severely affect the health and welfare of the country’s workers.”

    “The government must move quickly to close this dangerous loophole in the Fair Work Act to ensure that everyone gets a minimum 4 weeks’ paid annual leave. Waiting for the results of the review of the Fair Work Act is not good enough.”

    “It is clear from AIG Heather Ridout’s comments at the National Press Club today that employers will resist attempts for positive reform. The government needs to stare down the big bosses on this.”

    “My bill to put job security at the centre of Fair Work decisions will be debated as soon as Parliament returns.”

  106. Wasn’t one of Hockey’s excuses prior to the election that he couldn’t do the costings because the opposition didn’t have the same resources as the government. Gillard then offered the opposition full use of government services.

    However, I can’t quite remember how they ended up using private accountants. I think that they did have an excuse but can’t recall it.

  107. I think that they did have an excuse but can’t recall it.

    Their excuse was the same as nils. Treasury has been politicised.

    I agree, it had, after all, what department did gretch work for.

    Perhaps they meant ‘de-politicised’:

  108. Tom @ 10.44

    how about the deafening silence from the ABC on line. We all know the ltd news would choke before calling Hockey, Robb outright LIARS and give an accurate account to,the public BUT it is something all together different for the ABC not to have a written news item.


  109. As the year begins to wind down, & from an impressive field, my nomination for the most totally shagged commentary this year goes to Gai Waterhouse’s criticism of Julia Gillard’s clothing during her visit to Japan.
    Before putting this up I went back to a photo of the scene, & saw what goes beyond cliche & can only be called “utter devastation”. Listening to the self important whinings of this wrangler to the very seriously rich, the French & Russian revolutions suddenly begin to make complete sense.

  110. Hi BSA, that’s a good idea for a topic later on: the best and worst of 2011.

    We will put it up later in your honour. 🙂

    Perhaps for a bit of fun we could call it something like “The BSA Bob Award for the Best and Worst”. It should be a good thread.

  111. I believe it will, BSA. But I wonder how long it’d take Neil to sledgehammer his way in with the cry that Labor locks children up in detention centres or that Costello cleared Keating’s debt.

    Or that we’re all leftoid perverts.

  112. At least that’s something, Sky are now calling the episode as ‘highly embarassing’ for the opposition and will impact on their credibility for all future budgets. Harsh words indeed when you consider that they come from Sky News.

  113. Slippery Pete may be gone but the LNP has a new champion for rorting the public purse

    (now doesn’t that sound like a good headline for this piece on the near new liberal contender for slipper’s electorate)

    “MAL Brough has defended chalking up nearly $19,000 worth of flights during a six-month period when he was not serving parliament.
    Mr Brough, who hopes to oust Peter Slipper as Member for Fisher at the next election, racked up $10,638.67 in personal flights and $7522.56 in family travel from January 1 to June 30 last year.
    The former Member for Longman lost his seat in November, 2007”

    But wait there is more he did it for charity

    “Mr Brough said he took the flights to conduct “charitable work in indigenous communities”

    But it gets better, his arm must have been twisted to make him put his snout in the trough. That bl**dy Howard is at fault.

    “I don’t think this form of entitlement should be there,” he said. “I’d be only too happy to see the end of it as it is not justifiable. It used to be unlimited but the Howard government capped it to 25 flights.”

  114. From ‘elsewhere’ and comment Just to clarify, I objected to the “gay leprechaun” used by others as a description of Joyce.

    I also objected to “faggot” and “bumchum”.

    How twee, how holier than thou that some people become when their blog is a dying entity.

    At the time I offered for those ‘offended’ to please point out to me as acting blogmaster those specific comments. I said that I would deal with these. I advised that any comments which either he (and his associated parties) considered offensive to please point out this to me.

    Apparently the offensive word was some months back and was the word f*ggot which was written by Patricia. Patricia offered to withdraw this short poem but explained that she and her gay friends did not find the term offensive but understood how some might.

    No response to Patricia’s offer of withdrawal of her short poem was forthcoming.

    I dispute that the term ‘bumchum’ was ever used on this blog, however the writer of the above quote could check with friend Joni who used to use it fairly regularly on our predessor blog, The Blogocrats. Just check the roster of Amnesty, you’ll find him still there.

  115. That comment from Pip bears repeating: “Min, you can do no more than you have already and should not lose any sleep over it.

    TB is “giving it” to the real problem Min – leave him to wallow in what he’s caused…

  116. Thanks Pip. There are times to just roll over and play dead, there are other times when you need to set the record straight. How many times has Gillard been criticised for not taking the game up to Abbott – why didn’t she say something, why didn’t she do something about it.

    But of course if you dare to take action then you’re going to cop sh*t as well. Blogging and politics is a loser’s game.

  117. Min, one of Gillard’s conundrums was evident today.
    There were many speeches made by Ministers at the ALP conference yet all the highly educated journalists could spend more than 20 seconds on was marriage equality, for the simple reason that it might cause trouble for the PM.

  118. Tony Abbott blames Fair Work Act for strike spike

    TONY Abbott has blamed Julia Gillard’s industrial laws for the staggering rise in industrial action, and vowed to construct a new policy that ends high rates of disputation.
    At the same time, former Howard government workplace relations minister Peter Reith has said the latest strike data showed immediate changes needed to be made to the Fair Work Act or the country’s economic prosperity would be at serious risk.

    “There is no doubt that the new industrial relations climate created by the Gillard government has contributed to this,” Mr Abbott said yesterday. “We’ve got a flexibility problem, we’ve got a productivity problem, we’ve got a militancy problem and that’s why it’s important that the Coalition address these.”

    Peter Reith would say that wouldn’t he?
    What would he do, send in the dogs ?? Or, ex SAS ?

    Nurses vote for mass rallies across Vic

    Angry nurses have accused the Victorian government of spitting in their face during workplace negotiations, but have opted not to resume bed closures and elective surgery cancellations.

    Premier Ted Baillieu had on Friday warned nurses against resuming unprotected industrial action.

    After the mass meeting in Melbourne, Australian Nursing Federation state secretary Lisa Fitzpatrick said the government – and the Victorian Hospitals Industrial Association (VHIA) – clearly wanted nurses to strike.

    “Nurses have decided that they’re not taking the bait which, no doubt, the government and the VHIA would like them to do,” she told reporters.

    “They won’t be taking unprotected action, which will lead them to the Federal Court.

    “We will be having community rallies in our lunch break.”

  119. Pip, it appears evident to me that the strikes in NSW and Vic are a direct result of the consequences caused by the state governments. What would Abbott prefer, that all cops and nurses be put on AWA’s?

  120. Maybe I was wrong about the backers…

    All eyes on leader Tony Abbott as Liberals view change

    For those conservatives looking for a policy agenda, they were presented with one in the last sitting week – a thoughtful and comprehensive program for reform and innovation from newly minted Liberal senator, Arthur Sinodinos.

    For a long time Howard’s most trusted staffer, Sinodinos painted an Australia where education is king, not afraid of growth and keen to tackle productivity reforms, including the feared workplace relations agenda.

    Abbott might be interested but is he ready to tack politically in the face of changed conditions?

    Some Liberals think Abbott can do it and say he’s already moving that way. Others don’t believe he’s got it in him.

  121. Liberals are re-badging Workchoices. They have lost momentum with the “Just say No” approach and are now looking around for a “be afraid, be very afraid” target. Of course “militant unions” are a good standby, don’t let the fact that there are more militant employers around nowadays surface in the MSM.
    Some of the MSM portrayed the lock out by Qantas management as “union’ action. It’s just massaging the message when there is nothing in the policy kitbag.

  122. Poor old diddums are not living by their own creed, last I heard Divorced peoples are allowed to re- enter into marriages and as to Biological Parents, today we seem to have mine, yours and ours. So has the Marriage Act already been corrupted?

    “The Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, and the Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Peter Jensen, were among the 19 leaders who issued the joint statement last night.

    ”Marriage is the lifelong commitment and faithful union of one man and one woman,” they wrote. ”As such, marriage is the natural basis of the family because it secures the relationship between biological parents and their children. The preservation of the unique meaning of marriage is not a special or limited interest but serves the common good, particularly the good of children.”

    The leaders called on the government to ”not change the meaning of marriage by adding to it different kinds of relationships”.

    Read more:

  123. And thank you to friend Jen for the reminder, that today is the 157th Anniversary of the Eureka Stockade. Those eventually brought to trial for sedition and high treason were:

    Timothy Hayes, Chairman of the Ballarat Reform League, from Ireland

    James McFie Campbell, a black man from Kingston, Jamaica

    Raffaello Carboni, an Italian and trusted lieutenant who was in charge of the European diggers as he spoke a few European languages. Carboni self published his account of the Eureka Stockade a year after the Stockade, the only comprehensive eyewitness account.

    Jacob Sorenson, a Jew from Scotland

    John Manning, a Ballarat Times journalist, from Ireland

    John Phelan, a friend and business partner of Peter Lalor, from Ireland

    Thomas Dignum, born in Sydney

    John Joseph, a black American from New York City or Baltimore, United States

    James Beattie, from Ireland

    William Molloy, from Ireland

    Jan Vennick, from the Netherlands

    Michael Tuohy, from Ireland

    Henry Reid, from Ireland

    It seems that multi-culturalism is nothing new for Australia.

  124. I just received a note that the anti-gay marriage rights rally organised to coincide with the Labor Party debate on this subject earned themselves a total of 50 people.

  125. I haven’t seen much political news over the last day or so, haven’t had time yet to read the above comments. What little I did see was exclusively “look at these dills” stuff about Labor’s gay marriage debate. I reckon a few of the above comments would be along these lines?. I did hear, via the ABC (who else?) that the opposition has criticised Labor for obsessing on this & neglecting the international crisis about to swamp us all. Some may call this chutzpah, I call it malicious bullshit aided & abetted by our national broadcaster.
    It is, of course, an excellent example of how the vast anti Labor force in this country goes about its business. Simply create an exaggerated beatup, crisis & “test” over an issue, any issue & then criticise Labor for not being focused on something else.

  126. The ABC has made a lot about Gillard not mentioning Rudd in her speech that highlighted the achievements of past PMs.

    Weekend Sunrise absolutely made the largest mountain they could over it with the panel they had on it all apparently able to read both Gillard’s and Rudd’s mind.

    There was one bit, where when showing footage of Rudd, his face just slightly for a split second had a little change in movement at the bottom corner of his mouth. That was interpreted as a sure fire unmistakable body language display of his displeasure and anger.

  127. This article should come with a warning, there is a damn-awful photo of Howard there. He has a decidedly green tinge.

    “Facilitating marriage equality is not about indulging sentiment, although I’ve read some truly moving stories supporting the reform case; it’s about sound practice. For a country like Australia, the elimination of state-sanctioned discrimination is a question of fairness, consistency and decency; an emphatic affirmation of our underrated exceptionalism.”

  128. It is I believe a fact that Collective bargaining under Mr. Hawke added the most to productivity in the history of th nation. it stands to reason for this to be so, as workers have as much invested in their industry succeeding as does the boss.

    Min, multiculturalism was evidence among those on the first fleet. They came from many nations.

    The strikes we are now seeing can be placed at the feet of Liberal State government. Governments that are refusing to meet the workers in any way and changing laws that leave them with no rights. It is we will pay this and you will like or lump it.

    Then we have the likes of Qantas, using all in their power to overrule what few rights people have.

    There will be further IR disruption as the left over AWA’s are finishing their life. These bosses are unlikely to be happy to work within the new paradigm.

    Will someone tell Mr. Bryun it is not divorce that harms children. It is bad marriages that does the harm. Bad marriages sadly lead to bad divorces. it is bad parent, or at least one that harms children.

    ME, I notice that when the cameras caught Mr. Rudd, during the PM speech yesterday, he seemed to have a wide grin on his face and was clapping along with the rest.

    Mr. Morrison has been whinging about Labor spending all it’s time on same sex marriage at the expense of migration. Is 90 minutes to long to spend on what is important to a great many people.

    Those who are disappointed in today’s result, I suggest they take a step back. A lot has been achieved to day. A lot of the heat has been taken out of the issue. The attention now needs to be aimed at the Coalition. The day for same gender marriages is now closer.

  129. CU, re they came from many nations. As a family historian I agree completely. In fact most people would be surprised about just how multi-cultural we have always been, no doubt due to the fact that most of us only ever learnt the Anglo-Saxon version of white settlement.

  130. CU @1.17pm Mr Bryun’s attitude is typical of why Labor needs to renew..those types of attitudes have no place in today’s Labor Party, nor indeed in any political party.

  131. Min, I think I might have spelt his name wrong. He said he made studies among his union and came up with the figure that same gender marriage was unpopular.

    As most of his members are shop workers etc., I do not believe him.

    He also said that tonight, we would see two scenarios on our TV.

    One of those in favour of same gender marriages. According to him, we will say that is not us.

    The Other opposing, which we will side with.

    it is a pity he did not go outside and look at the size of the crowds.

    There were not many opposing that I could see.

  132. ‘Would have been selling uranium if re-elected’
    Press Trust Of India
    New Delhi, December 03, 2011

    Australia would have been selling uranium to India if he had been re-elected in 2007, former Australian prime minister John Howard said on Saturday.

    I wonder who paid Bonsai’s airfare to the HT Leadership summit 2011 at the Taj Palace Hotel in New Delhi ?

  133. Chalk up another failure for O’Farrell and yet another indicator that is going backwards under his leadership.

    When in opposition every single time there was a prison escape in NSW O’Farrell was front and centre stating what an absolute disgrace it was for the NSW government and that they had lost control of their prisons. The shock jocks and press would harp on about every escape as though the entire prison system had collapsed and it was an open door for prisoners to walk out of whenever they liked.

    Saw on the ticker on Insiders this morning. Prison escapes have tripled in NSW. So another key indicator has declined since O’Farrell won government and another one that was made a huge deal of when he was in opposition but is being buried now he’s in government and it’s his failure.

    So what was almost front page, a lead news item and O’Farrell huffing and puffing on every news bulletin is now relegated to a few words in a ticker that’s only shown for a very short time.

  134. Howard states his case on return to Perth

    Howard states his case on return to Perth by: Joe Spagnolo Political Editor From: The Sunday Times December 03, 2011 5:00PM Increase Text SizeDecrease Text SizePrintEmail Share
    Add to DiggAdd to del.icio.usAdd to FacebookAdd to KwoffAdd to MyspaceAdd to NewsvineWhat are these? 0 Former prime minister John Howard Source: AdelaideNow
    THE history books will baldly state that John Winston Howard was rejected by the country at the 2007 federal election.
    His rejection, though, was very much an eastern states’ phenomenon. On this side of the Nullarbor, Mr Howard won by a landslide, securing 12 out of 15 federal seats.

    “You are very good judges, that’s what it is,” Mr Howard concluded down a phone line this week.

    “We knew we were going to do very well in Western Australia.”

    Speaking ahead of his visit to Perth this week to promote his autobiography Lazarus Rising Mr Howard noted that the anti-Work Choices campaign didn’t get the traction here that it did in the east.

    Crucially, WA possessed “sharper entrepreneurial flair than other parts of the country,” he said.

    “West Australians understood the benefits of industrial relations reform.”

    That Workchoices thought bubble above his head hasn’t faded ….

  135. And Howard has just put shit on all the other States.Way to go.

    His massive misplaced ego really is something to behold and not even a government plus own seat loss has deflated it.

  136. Here is a story for Scott Morisson

    Arrests of illegal migrants on U.S.-Mexico border plummet

    ‘The Border Patrol apprehended 327,577 illegal crossers along the U.S.-Mexico border in fiscal year 2011, which ended Sept. 30, numbers not seen since Richard Nixon was president, and a precipitous drop from the peak in 2000, when 1.6 million unauthorized migrants were caught.

    Experts say that Border Patrol apprehensions are a useful marker for estimating the total flow of illegal migrants, though imprecise because the U.S. government has no idea how many are not caught.’

    Now according to Scott and Tones the government has lost control of our borders so, exactly how many illegals have come to Australia via Christmas island ?

  137. Notice the police deliberately blocking the camera phones and the plain clothes thug with the cigarette.

    If the police were just doing their job and nothing wrong then there would have been no problem openly filming it.

    This is the reasoning I agree with for the proliferation of security and safety cameras around. “If you aren’t doing anything wrong you don’t have anything to worry about in being filmed wherever you go in public.”

    Another case of double standards. If the police in this instance weren’t doing anything wrong then why did they deliberately block cameras that were filming their action?

  138. Mobius, and as the commentary states what if this was a fancy dress costume or religious garb. It’s a clear case of assault.

  139. Mobius,
    Great stuff isn’t it, how to strip off a young woman in public and try to shield yourself from the cameras at the same time. Is that a regular part of police crowd control training.

  140. Trains over trucks with $1b Sydney rail upgrade

    And yet more vital infrastructure building by the Labor government that Howard overlooked.

    In a deal with the O’Farrell government the Federal government will put in $840 million of a $1 billion project to separate the freight and passenger lines for a Northern Sydney Freight Corridor. This will be a boon to the NSW economy and increase productivity along with jobs.

    But this wasn’t O’Farrell’s preferred action. He wanted the Federal government to fork out that money for a pork barrel passenger rail line, one he promised during the election.

  141. I wonder how you would justify a budget surplus in not spending that $840 million as compared to the very long term benefit and boost to the economy of that project?

  142. Malcolm Fraser has clearly become wise with age…something which doesn’t happen to everyone, and I definitely cannot see this ever happening to Howard.

    Mr Fraser condemned Howard government policies on issues from terrorism to refugees and civil liberties, urged Australia to quit Iraq if the Americans did not engage high-level diplomacy in the Middle East, and quit the Liberal Party after the election of Tony Abbott as leader. The party, he said, had become conservative rather than liberal and its leaders encouraged the new description that Robert Menzies would have found insulting.

  143. I caught a snippet of Wilkie on Sky about this one, he certainly comes over as cool and reasoned compared with the overthetop claims by the gambling industry.

    But of course they will definitely not like the additional from Wilkie. Wilkie’s exact statement was that the advertising of gambling should be banned from children’s viewing hours, and that this would mean the removal of logos. He didn’t seem to be ‘picking on’ professional sporting teams per se.

    BETTING company logos would be removed from AFL and NRL jumpers and gambling advertising banned during children’s television viewing hours under sweeping changes urged by federal MPs.

    Commentators would also be banned from announcing live odds during sporting matches, while loopholes allowing access to prohibited online gambling sites would be closed.

  144. O’Farrell front and centre on some big event opening a massive recycling centre of some type, conceived by Ros Malouf,a successful rags to riches story.

    So I gathered O’Farrell had a lot to do with this success story.

    End snippet of piece. Finally comes to fruition after seven years of planning and construction.

    Yep. It was done under the previous Labor government who gave it assistance. O’Farrell had absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever and it would not surprise me if he had lumped this in with other State Labor government waste when he was in opposition.

    O’Farrell and his ministers cannot queue up fast enough to be front and centre for media pieces on programs started under or by the previous government.

  145. Pip he still has a dig at the unions and though he apologises he puts the blame onto the unions.

    We now know his reason of the union action being untenable is a lie.

    Hockey and Joyce would make good bedfellows.

  146. Min, from your link @ 5.05pm

    Mr Wilkie said the committee’s report found gambling was increasingly accepted as intrinsic to sport, with children talking about their team’s odds, rather than form.

    He said the promotion of in-game odds roped in a different demographic than other forms of gambling.

    “It’s estimated about $800 million is lost by Australians each year on sports betting in Australia,” he said.

    “It’s a different demographic, not your typical poker machine player or race track goer. It tended to be younger people, particularly younger men.”

    There was an item of news a few weeks ago where a small boy aged about 9 years old was heavily involved in this subject. So wrong.

  147. O’Farrell and his ministers cannot queue up fast enough to be front and centre for media pieces on programs started under or by the previous government.

    What a stupid comment. Do you think Kristina Keneally should open the recycling centre???

    This happens all the time with new govts opening things started by previous govts.

    Your comment shows that your hatred of the Liberals knows no bounds.

    The National Portrait gallery building was started under Howard but Rudd opened it on Dec 3 2008.

    The National Portrait Gallery is one of the more significant buildings built recently in Canberra

  148. Min, Malcolm Fraser was criticised by certain members of the Coalition some time ago for veering Left, and replied that he hadn’t moved, it was that they had moved further to the Right.

    Much further!

  149. Mobius, just the fact that his sidekick was the man at Rio Tinto who had the job of busting the unions, says it all.

  150. O’Farrell has been all about grandstanding every since he won government in a landslide. Something he promised he wouldn’t do if he won.

    In the meantime he’s broken just about every promise yet taken the credit, not just opened stuff, but taken the credit for previous Labor government programs that have been successful.

    OK it is done by all sides but the difference here is that O’Farrell heavily criticised all these programs and the media aided him in putting them all down. Now he’s crowing about their success but in a way that makes it appear as though it’s his and his government’s success.

    But whilst he’s doing all this grandstanding he promised he wouldn’t every indicator in NSW is going backwards. He hasn’t fixed a single thing, nor has he even started putting in programs and policies to fix anything. But he has broken a long string of promises on programs and policies he was going to implement to fix things.

    He delivered the first deficit in ages, something you always rail against, and that was on the back of lying about $2 billion of a supposed $4 billion black hole.

    That’s all the Liberals are good at, lying and grandstanding, and at State or Federal level they love to prove that nearly every day.

    And you talk about hate of the Liberals. Nothing even gets close to your unreasonable hate of Labor.

  151. Pip @5.34pm. Another one from Wilkie was his plan to tackle online gambling – he indicated that overseas gambling sites would be banned.

  152. OK it is done by all sides but the difference here is that O’Farrell heavily criticised all these programs

    Did O’Farrell criticise building the recycling centre when in Opposition???

  153. And that was in June Min. Since then more promises have been broken and every indicator has gone further backwards.

    But you would hardly know it from the media. The difference between their constant attacks on the previous government for the same failing and this O’Farrell government for an even worse performance in the same areas couldn’t be more stark.

    But O’Farrell has been failing so much and so often that many of the failures are getting through to the MSM and are being talked about.

  154. Stoopid thing number 1: Plastic shopping backs are now banned in the ACT. If you go shopping and have forgotten to bring a bag you can buy one. Yes, for 15 cents you can buy . . . a plastic bag.

    Stoopid thing number 2: Boss won a few prizes at the club’s Xmas toy raffle on Tuesday night and offered to donate them to the Smith Family. He told the SF that he won them at the club raffle. They refused to accept them because they were won from the proceeds of gambling. What the?

  155. Stoopid thing number 3: people who put 4 onions in a plastic bag, 3 bananas in a plastic bag, 2 lemons in a plastic bag and a sweet corn in a plastic bag. On arrival at the checkout want the whole lot put guessed it…yet another plastic bag.

    I dunno, unless you eat onion skin, banana skin, lemon peel and sweet corn leaves, why the need for the previous 4 plastic bags.

  156. People smuggling accused found not guilty

    Two men accused of people smuggling will be returned to Indonesia after being found not guilty in the Northern Territory Supreme Court.

    Ibrahim Hamansa, 37, and Firman Dahir, 19, were picked up on a boat carrying 49 people in Australian waters in April last year.

    The two men were accused of people smuggling and have been held in detention ever since.

    In the Supreme court in Darwin, the men’s lawyers argued they were the “fall guys” in a people smuggling racket.

  157. Previous to the 15cent plastic bags, the shops supplied plastic bags that were biodegradable, the 15cent ones are not. Now that’s stoopid

  158. Just watching Sloppy Joe talking about the big banks & rate cuts. “If they’ve got funding problems, then let them tell us about them.” Something like that. Almost conciliatory really. Is he so confident of victory he feels the need for a bit of preliminary sucking up to the people he’ll have to actually deal with & not just abuse?

  159. Sue, one disadvantage of biodegradable plastic bags is that in the recycling process they have to separated from normal plastic so become a problem. Their production also emits about 4 times the amount of CO2 and the production process needs about 15 times the amount of water. I have a feeling that there is problem with them when used as food storage, but I’m not 100% on that one.

  160. Poor Abbott and Hockey, plus that Arnie talk alike. Jumping up and down about Swan’s lack of authority over the banks and he should be forcing them to cut the rates in full and lo and behold two of the majors, ANZ and NAB do it.

    It was always going to be the problem for an attack along this line that the banks would cut the rates in full. All it has done is further cement the opposition’s mindless negativity.

  161. Commonwealth Bank has cut rates in full.

    Only Westpac left.

    There you go Abbott, Hockey and Arnie talk alike, Swan has got authority over the major banks.

    Look forward to you saying so, over the next day or so would be good.

  162. Sue, there are inroads with some retailers now using recycled paper bags and as noted a price on plastic bags in some areas. However it’s clearly not enough to wean the Australian public off the plastic bag habit. Garrett said that he was going to ban plastic in ’08 and of course there were howls of outrage about the end of civilization as we know it.

    Clearly if one has to pay 15 cents for a plastic bag then instead of using 6 they will make do with one.

    The Chinese actually have a great idea, they use rice fibre to make containers equivalent to Maccas hamburger containers.

    Federal Environment Minister Peter Garrett has confirmed he wants a phase-out of plastic shopping bags introduced within the year.

    The Government is under pressure to act quickly after the Chinese Government yesterday announced plans to ban free plastic bags within six months.

  163. Mobius, they’ve already been whingeing..the accusation that Swan has lost control of the economy and that the banks do not respect him as evidenced by the delay in passing on the rate cuts. Nothing to do with the fact that the banks are nothing more than greedy pr*cks.

  164. Bailleau, his brother-in-law and Alpine grazing in National Parks,( oh dear) and Vic Forests

    “TED Baillieu’s brother-in-law had access to senior government bureaucrats and acted as a ”backroom” agent for the mountain cattlemen as the Coalition controversially returned cattle to the Alpine National Park.

    Mr Stoney was also recently appointed to the board of VicForests, the government entity that oversees timber harvesting in the state’s public forests. The Premier in Parliament this week dodged opposition questions about whether he left the cabinet room when Mr Stoney was appointed

    Read more:

    And if I remember correctly, under the current wage negotiations in Victoria, the Parks people have been offered 2.5%, the police got 19% over 4 years.

  165. And what is the Bailleau answer to Bailleau, his brother-in-law and………

    “BAD behaviour by politicians could be shielded from public view under the Baillieu government’s sweeping new anti-corruption regime.

    The Coalition used the last parliamentary day of the year to rush through laws that will give the new commission sweeping powers to investigate

    But buried in 100 pages of legislation is a clause revealing the state government will be under no obligation to publicise some covert investigations by its new anti-corruption watchdog –

    Instead of delivering public findings, the new commission has been given special powers to make a ”private recommendation” to the premier or a minister, arising out of an investigation.

    Read more:

    So what the OPI uncovered in the Simon Overland investigation, would never make the public arena. Not only does that protect the politicians it also protects Murky Press Media, The Herald Sun.

  166. Australia you have got to love it.

    On american crime shows they have FBI, dogs, plenty of guns and drama of the chase.

    Today on the ABC news they showed the Manhunt in NSW. The local volunteers are running a sausage sizzle. Well it is raining, there are plenty of press, no action and so, what a bl**dy good idea.

  167. That’s a worry Sue. What if the ‘hunted’ shows up for a feed ? 😯

    “Hand over those chops and no-one gets hurt”.

  168. Fr. Chris Riley should read this

    Gabriela Byrne is a community worker, a wife and a mother to two wonderful children.

    I met Gabriela yesterday, when she spoke at a community forum about what she used to be – a woman addicted to gambling on poker machines.

    For four years, the pokies came before her family, her children and her career. She describes her addiction as a ‘love affair’ — endless lies, constant guilt, wanting to stop but not knowing how.

  169. Latest news on the Manhunt

    “The SES catering van has been booked for another 3 days.”

    “A second helipcopter has arrived plus the major incident caravan”

    I, of course, will await the tally of the sausages, steak sandwiches and egg and bacon rolls served during this operation.

  170. Golly gosh we haven’t seen the canon since Howard’s APEC show, What a crowd pleaser that would be. Also if any of those pesky journos ask difficult questions a blast would cool ’em down.

  171. A year through the eyes of the Canberra gallery
    Be first to comment
    Andrew Elder

    Dear Mum and Dad,

    Here at the Federal Parliamentary Press Gallery the year is pretty much over. We’ve been to drinks at the Lodge and drinks with Mr Abbott – yes, they were separate events.

    Even though there wasn’t an election this year we keep ourselves busy by pretending there is one coming up, or failing that a leadership spill within the Labor Party.

  172. Pip @2.47pm, yes indeed Father Riley should read Gabriela Byrne’s story. As I said over at Massive Spray’s blog at:

    I was very pleased to see the ever-logical Tim Costello come out and stating as per Catching up, whilst having the utmost respect for Father Reilly that in this case he is wrong.

    Father Reilly’s opinion is that more money should be put into counselling services. A problem is that many people with a gambling addiction will not admit to the fact that they have ‘a problem’, the problem is the machine’s, the problem is their partner’s, the problem is everyone’s except their own. In this way a gambling addiction is exactly the same as any other addiction.

    Counselling has been available for years such as the Gambling Hotline, it’s success in stopping gambling addiction has been minimal because they are treating the addiction only when it becomes a serious problem. Surely the strategy should be to help stop the addiction from occuring in the first place.

    As Andrew Wilkie stated (paraphrased) that having counselling as the only strategy is akin to having ambulances at the bottom of a cliff instead of erecting a fence at the top.

  173. I think what annoyed me most about Father Reilly, was that he admitted that he didn’t like the fact that an elected member of parliament had so much input into government policy. Thus making himself the arbiter of what should be government policy, without any authority.

    Second the Father thought that “child abuse” was a bigger problem. I agree Father now take your concerns to the Vatican and the various archdioses in Australia where abuse has been covered up by the church.

  174. The food van at the Manhunt is a sign apparently, the police are settling in.
    I tend to differ,where I live, takeaway Maccas is more of a sign the police have settled in.

  175. Now before any person complains, I kid you not, the ABC news really has highlighted the “importance” of a food van,,

  176. Treasurer’s top adviser quits to head mining body

    One of the O’Farrell government’s most senior advisers has jumped ship to join the state’s peak coalmining industry lobby group

    Stephen Galilee, who has been chief of staff to the Treasurer, Mike Baird, since April, has quit to become the chief executive of the NSW Minerals Council, it was announced this afternoon.

    Mr Galilee is a former staffer with the federal Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, and also worked for the former prime minister John Howard.

  177. I’m under delegated authority here, so am risking life and limb but thought that I’d go for it.

    The Café Prize for the Quotable Quote of the Day goes to Pip for:

    “Hand over those chops and no-one gets hurt”.

  178. More on post @ 4.25pm, from Andrew Elder

    In January, there was flooding in Queensland and the government proposed a flood levy, which Mr Abbott opposed. We were all surprised that Mr Abbott would oppose it, especially after Queenslanders voted for him so enthusiastically months before. I wanted to do follow-up stories on how the levy is being spent and how Queensland is flood-proofing itself – but only losers do follow-ups!

    In February, the Prime Minister cried too much, or not enough, for the drowned of Queensland. The Opposition Leader said “shit happens” to express his condolences for a soldier killed in Afghanistan. A year of laser-like focus on the big issues was set in train.

  179. Now World Vision’s Rev. Tim Costello is in trouble with the Hotels Association for his criticism of Fr. Chris Riley.

    Hotels accuse Costello of pokies hypocrisy

    Mr Costello says he does not agree with accepting gambling money and has criticised Father Riley for fronting the campaign.

    But Mr Costello has admitted accepting $500,000 from hotels for a tsunami relief program.

    He believes the money came from donations by patrons and staff.

    “We got confirmation that they were, they had (an) overwhelming number of people who responded to putting money into a bucket,” Mr Costello said.

    But that is something the AHA rejects.

  180. OMG..better hang the Rev. Costello from the nearest yard arms, he accepted $500,000 from the hotels for Tsunami relief.

    Now nasty can the AHA get..heaps,..when Tim Costello might get between them and a dollar.

  181. Pip at 6.32
    They always keep the receipts don’t they?
    “At 3.17pm on July 16th 1987 you accepted a free sanger & a potato chip from the bar & now you criticise us you hypocrite!!!!!”

  182. Political rivalry: what’s new?

    Neville Wran, Labor premier of NSW from 1976 to 1986, played the game as hard as anyone. While some political leaders have had cordial, and even close, relationships with their opposite numbers, Wran not only refused to speak to them but refused even to acknowledge their very existence. He is known to have spoken to the Liberal leader Nick Greiner only once, and the two words he is said to have uttered are unprintable.

    Jeff Kennett, when Liberal premier of Victoria, had a testy relationship with another senior Liberal, Peter Costello, to whom he referred to as “Dog”, explaining that Costello had all the characteristics of a canine except loyalty.

    Amusing Saturday read, and a change from the usual…

  183. Mate you should have heard the whinging in 2007 from Rudd.

    Inflation dragon, interest rate rises, reckless spending.

    In 2007 we had unemployment at 4.3% at 30 year lows, no Federal govt debt. I do not know how they did it but the Coalition managed to pay off all the debt you retards created last time in power.

    With unemployment at 30 years lows the whingers from the ALP managed to create enough gloom and doom to get 50% of stupid Australians to vote for them.

    Biggest whinger is Kevin Rudd back in 2007 followed by the people who voted for him.

  184. Look at this piece of ALP filth

    ” Immigration Minister Chris Bowen says fresh boat arrivals will put added pressure on detention centres and insists the opposition is to blame.”

    Someone should tell this evil man called Chris Bowen that it is their coalition partners, The Greens who are stopping the legislation he wants to pass from going through parliament.

    Someone should also tell him and his retarded ALP supporters that the ALP started this problem by getting rid of the Pacific Solution.

    And who could forget?? Look how great we are proclaim the ALP when they dismantled Howards policies. More moral, gentle, caring than the nasty Howard govt and we can now not feel ashamed of being Australian claim the ALP retards.

    This is a problem caused by the ALP and their immoral supporters.

  185. Neil, why do you sink to infantile name calling when things do not go your way.

    To have a differing opinion is allowed.

  186. Neil
    There are two events the media as a whole have decided to neglect, & have done so enthusiastically so as to be of help to Mr Abbott.
    The first of these is that when Mr Abbott assumed the leadership of the Liberal Party, Coalition MPs went to bed that night opposing & ridiculing the climate change policy they’d woken up officially supporting.
    The second applies to what you’re going on about here. When the Lower House vote was taken on this disatrous legislation that would see the country ruined, your heroes of the Coalition were nowhere to be found. They weren’t in the House. They were MIA. They’d Cut & Run. They’d squibbed it. They’d deserted en masse. They neglected this country in what may have been the hour of its greatest need & why? To avoid the actual occurrence of what they like to brag about having. A Crossing of the Floor! The sad truth is that by not being there to oppose, your mates in the Coalition are as morally culpable as anyone else in the introduction of this law.

  187. Why the hell is Bowen blaming Abbott when it is Bob Brown who will not vote for the Malaysian non-solution???

    Someone should tell Bowen that he is in Coalition govt and his partners do not agree with Bowens policy.

    If Bowen cannot convince his Coalition partners to vote for it why the hell should anyone else vote for it???

  188. Neil
    Abbott opposed the latest round of legislation, along with everything else.
    I get annoyed at the recent faux concern, I think it was Morrison who invented it but I may be wrong, with the welfare of these poor people. “Stop them risking their lives on the dangerous journey” stuff. This just provides a cover for the “fuck off” attitude & everyone knows it. Mr Morrison et al have no objection to these people risking their lives on other journeys, just so long as they don’t end up in this direction.

  189. The Greens’ policy on Asylum seekers is very well known & unequivocal Neil – no offshore processing.

    On the other hand, The Lieberal rabble’s policy is for offshore processing. The only reason they will not vote for the government’s legislation is pure political opportunism – they like and encourage the boats, because they perceive it to be in their political interests. If they persist with this stance until they manage to get back into power, they’ll find they’ve shat in their own nests – the High Court rulings invalidate their policies too…

    And Labor is not in a coaltion with any other party – they have a loose alliance with Independent and Greens which extends only as far as ensuring a vote of no confidence in the government is defeated on the floor or the house…

  190. The only reason they will not vote for the government’s legislation is pure political opportunism

    What a load of crap. Who wants to be involved in trading human beings??

    You lot may think it a good idea. I think it is disgusting.

  191. Neil, it is not a matter of who is too blame. It is a matter of how to aleviate the problem.

    Nauru will not work. It will be expensive, people will be harmed abd end up in Australia.

    There is a chance that the Malaysian Solution is the beginning of a long term answer.

    Neil, many people are comfortable with onshore processing and want it to continue.

    The problem is that thanks to the Abbott Opposition, the boat trade cannot be addressed.

    This is the situation as it stands to day.

    The courts declared that the Howard solution was illegal. People were being denied their human rights. Howard’s policy relied on the refugees being isolated and not having access to the legal system.

    At the end of the day, we can cope with the numbers in Malaysia and indonesia.

    there are two separate issues. one is a number of refugees stranded in Malysia and Indonesia for many years, with little hope of getting on with their lives. the second is that number of these people through desperation, get on leaky boats, as they feel they have no option.

    It is misleading to assert we have border problem. our borders are not being breached. that is hysteria.

    This government is not attempting to demonise o blame these people for the situation they find themselves.

  192. Neil, there are many that believed that Mr. Howard and Mr. Ruddock were humane, in the way they treated these people.

    they reigned over a system that locked up Australian citizens. They went further and deported a sick woman, leaving her young son in care in this country.

    there was not too much humanity on show during their time.

    the present opposition is willing to ensure these people have no hope, to prove a point. I am not too sure what the point is.

  193. We’ve been back for several hours Min – worth another try or a call to see if you need a password reset?

  194. Told you so, says Metcalfe, on Malaysia plan fallout

    THE head of the Immigration Department, Andrew Metcalfe, has told a parliamentary inquiry that the surge of boats since the federal government was forced to abandon offshore processing has justified his warnings on the collapse of the Malaysia solution

    Mr Metcalfe said the recent changes to government asylum seeker policy.
    had been prompted by the High Court decision, which had ”unwound the legislation put in place in 2001”.

    Read more:

  195. Thank you Bacchus, so kind of you to take the time. This has been a 3 day saga as Migs will attest. Thursday: technical support didn’t know of a problem and of course tried to blame me, everything except take any responsibility of course. Friday: an outage, same..can send emails but cannot receive emails.

    Then the whole system collapsed last night and so it’s been approximately 24hrs where the biggest service provider in Australia has been down.

  196. Roswell, you know what,i am a little annoyed at Neil’s continuous insults. he seems to think if one does not agree with him, they are liars, nasty and duplicitous.

  197. Neil “What a load of crap. Who wants to be involved in trading human beings??” as the next load of South East Asian prostitutes arrive to join the rest of the sex workers brought over to work as call girls/casino workers, personal massages.

    If you want to get hot under the collar about issues and are so concerned about ‘trading in human beings’, why not become involved instead of fart arsing your way around blogs.

    Catching up, I agree it’s put up or shut up. It’s not my place to say but this fellow although amusing at times dominates the debate and doesn’t give other people a chance to have their say. He’s an aggressive pr*ck.

  198. CU, I’ve at times come here and supported Neil. He still insists on labeling me based on his assumption I’m a Labor voter.

    For the record I have voted Labor the last three elections.

  199. I did not like this statement by Bacchus

    “The only reason they will not vote for the government’s legislation is pure political opportunism – they like and encourage the boats, because they perceive it to be in their political interests.”

    This was the same crap from way back before the 2007 election. Everything Howard does is for political purposes to win votes.

    Whereas the moral, kind and good ALP supporters support the truth even if they lose votes.

    It is a load of garbage.

  200. Really?? You cannot be serious. Trading in human beings??

    I even heard they were going to put on Youtube, film of refugees being sent to Malaysia as a deterrent.

    The only reason Gillard wanted Abbotts vote was to share the blame if the Malaysian solution did not work. It was a stupid policy.

    and doesn’t give other people a chance to have their say.”

    And how could I possibly do that??

  201. Well Neil what most politicians regardless of their colour generally do things to win votes. That is why it is called politics.

    Mr, Howard was no saint.

    Much of what he did was not good for the majority of us.

    Sorry Neil, I do not like the man. I have not liked him for many decades. I do not like his policies or ideology.

    I have voted Labor most of my life. I am ashamed until I learnt better, i voted DLP.

    As far as I know, there are no perfect politicians.

  202. Neil, I have written extensively on this issue and I would refer you to the RHS and the Category: Refugees.

    Therefore before you start making an even bigger fool of yourself via unsubstantiated accusations, I would not just recommend but require you to read these.

    Neil, I am on the cusp of saying FOI..and Migs knows exactly what I mean when I say means, be afraid be very afraid. Think PMT and you have it…

  203. via unsubstantiated accusations”

    Which ones are those?? It could not be any worse than this one.

    ““The only reason they will not vote for the government’s legislation is pure political opportunism – they like and encourage the boats, because they perceive it to be in their political interests.””

    I think that is a disgusting statement.

  204. As sure as night follows day, Mr. Abbott is not about to do anything to assist Labor with the boat trade.

    Mr. Abbott knows very well that Nauru is not an answer.

    Mr. Abbott knows that safeguards can be put in place to protect people.

    Mr Abbott does not have the answer, and is only interested in hindering the Government, I care little about your manufactured disgust.

  205. Neil, I think Min means business. Remember, God knows no fear like a woman’s wrath.

    I don’t believe in God, but I do believe a lady can get angry.

  206. The Coalition did not vote for the malaysian solution because they did not agree with it. Neither do the Greens.

    How could anyone agree with this

    “The Immigration Department will film the first group of asylum seekers processed under the new refugee swap deal with Malaysia and post the video on YouTube.

    The move is part of the department’s internet campaign to deter asylum seekers from making the trip to Australia by boat.

    The department says the detainees will be filmed as they are moved from Christmas Island, board a plane to Malaysia and check into accommodation in the South-East Asian country.”

    And they were only going to send 800 back. After 800 arrive what then???

  207. Neil, it is good to post links as starting points for debate. But I think that we’ve all seen old stale links many times over.

    Therefore as you are clearly wanting to start a debate on your post @10.04pm, what is your opinion? Which are your debating points?

  208. And then we have this

    “Prime Minister Julia Gillard has indicated that authorities on Christmas Island will be authorised to use force to make sure asylum seekers get on board aircraft taking them to Malaysia………………….This morning, Ms Gillard said the Government would “do what was necessary” to make sure the asylum seekers obeyed orders and would not rule out using force to make children board the planes to Malaysia.

    “Obeying instructions here is not a question of volunteering,” she said.”

    I do not think these are the sort of pictures we want to send around the world. There would be children crying as they are dragged up the steps to the aeroplane.

    And the people smugglers would quickly find a way around that only 800 would be sent back. They are up on all the immigration laws and would outsmart the govt.

  209. The Coalition did not vote for the malaysian solution because a “Malaysian solution bill” was never presented to parliament

    The “Migration Legislation Amendment (Offshore Processing and Other Measures) Bill” was presented to parliament in the aftermath of the high court decision of August 2011.

    The aim of the bill was to close the loopholes in the Howard government legislation on which the court ruled. It was not specifically about the “Malaysia solution”, rather about offshore processing.

    The rulings also invalidate the Lieberals’ policies. It would be in their own long term interests to vote for these amendments, but the Noalition under Abbott knows only one way – NO NO NO NO NO. It is in their short term interests for as many asylums seekers as possible to turn up on boats – yes that’s disgusting because we have the most disgusting opposition EVER experienced in this country…

    Disclaimer: While I personally do not support the “Malaysia solution” in its current form, and don’t have an answer as to how to deter desperate people from getting on leaky boats, I think some sort of “Regional solution” does need to be worked out.

  210. Bacchus, I also think a regional solution needs to be worked out.

    SIEV 1V and SIEV X should have been enough of a warning that something needed to be done, as well as the tragedy last year at Christmas island as well as other tragedies which haven’t made the news.

    People are justifiably seeking asylum from Iraq [particularly Hazaras], Iran, and Sri Lanka as well as Burma, contrary to the blithering from certain politicians and the MSM and shock jocks.

    The numbers coming here are negligible compared to any other country, and we do, after all, have a history of successful refugees making contributions to our society.

  211. Bacchus re

    Disclaimer: While I personally do not support the “Malaysia solution” in its current form, and don’t have an answer as to how to deter desperate people from getting on leaky boats, I think some sort of “Regional solution” does need to be worked out.

    I concur. I might add that the modus operandi of those such as Neil is to stiffle reasonable debate.

    I will be leaving this blog until there is a resolution. During my time as acting blog master I did my best to treat all with respect, while attempting to curtail some of the worst of the abuse.

    This is clearly something which needs to resolved between blogmaster Miglo and myself. I am hopeful that it will not take more than a round table.

    However, for the moment..adieu…

  212. No Migs, that’s not what I said. I suggested a round table to discuss certain persons dominating debate. For example, Pip or Sue put up a link. Nobody comments on it because certain people dive in and switch the topic around to their favorite.

    While I am sure that some might be amused by this, it’s not much fun to be continuously wasting time posting links, such as Pip et al and to have these ignored. Just a cursory ‘thanks for the link’.

  213. The msm are all a twitter about the government re-shuffle and the whys and wherefores but I won’t put up links because it will all be rubbish in a day or two.

    Maybe the “Slipper thing wasn’t about Wilkie or Thomsen, maybe it was about Rudd”
    blah blah blah

  214. Pip, exactly what I mentioned to ‘someone else’, that those who had rushed out and put up topics about a supposed reshuffle might find their topics sadly ‘stale news’ before it becomes news..that is, if it ever does, become news that is.

  215. Gillard’s dream team out to steady the ship

    The passage of crucial pieces of legislation and the extra vote on the floor of the Parliament could allow Labor to overcome this year’s atmosphere of crisis and incompetence and set out a plan.

    Having played the ”long game”, dragged itself through a year replete with even more ”crap” than it had expected and bought some space for governing, Labor has to prove it knows what it wants to do with it. And then it has to explain it to the voters.

  216. Min I thought everyone had gone for the night.

    I said I wouldn’t bother with links but Lenore Taylor is usually a cut above the rest 🙂

    A “war on crap” day sounds like a brilliiant idea, but why stop at one day?
    There’s enough ‘crap’ for the war to last much longer.

  217. Coalition’s poll favours $1 pokie bet

    THOUSANDS of people have told the federal Coalition they support tougher action on problem pokies gambling, including $1 maximum bets and mandatory pre-commitment.

    The opposition frontbencher Malcolm Turnbull will this week release the results of an online poll he conducted to gauge community views on what should be done.

    He said the clubs industry had been made aware of the poll to try to prevent it from being hijacked by anti-gambling campaigners.

    That’s Malcontent, runs with the hares and hunts with the hounds!

  218. Pip, that headline is a bit misleading..’the Coalition favors’. Nothing of the sort, this is Malcolm Turnbull who is going to release a poll which contradicts Abbott’s support of the gambling lobby.

    One more notch in Malcolm’s belt…

    Mr Turnbull’s poll attracted attention because it was linked to a message from the chairman of the Australian Churches Gambling Taskforce, Tim Costello, who said a voluntary approach to tackling problem gambling would not work.

    Of course the voluntary approach will not work, because it has never worked..think of all those labels on every machine and tacked onto the back of loo doors Call the Gambling Hotline.

  219. Pip
    that heading could have included “pre-commitment”

    Coalition poll favours $1 bets and pre-commitment

    The other bit about the article is the Abbott / Turnbull leadership battle. Yes there must be a battle because Turnbull is as they say within the tent p***ing out.

    “Mr Turnbull, the Coalition’s communications spokesman, is part of a working group set up by the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, to develop a problem gambling policy.

  220. An article about when senior management has a “problem” with one of their colleagues and how to quickly move on: (or the BS the ranks see)

    “Mr Jenkins left his counter-terrorism post in 2006, became Local Area Commander at Blacktown and was awarded the Australian Police Medal in the 2007 Australia Day Honours for distinguished service. He is now an assistant commissioner.

    Read more:

  221. The whingeing retailers

    ‘What they haven’t run campaigns about is that the retail sector’s return on capital employed is second only to the mining industry. And that, despite all their whingeing, retail employment has been holding up – not what happens when an industry is genuinely suffering.

    The fact is that Australia’s retail sales having been rising modestly but steadily all year by about 0.3 per cent a month.

    Their move into online retailing has been more about belated defensive action than embracing change to grow their businesses. Hmmm, sounds like newspaper publishers.

    Read more:

  222. Sue @6.49am, that’s one of the difficult ones. Certainly larger retailer should get on board and compete via online retailing but what about the little fella’, the corner country store.

    A friend of mine had 2 clothing stores, one at Tweed Centro and one at The Pines. She stocked good quality goods, no Indonesian imports. She ended up having to close her store at Centro because people would come in, try on garments and then buy them online. She also had to discontinue some lines for the same reason.

  223. I thought that this sort of thing had died out 10 years ago. Everywhere I have worked and this includes male dominated workplaces, I have never been subjected to sexual harrassment. Maybe I was just lucky. There does however still today appear to be certain elements who believe that they can treat a person as they like/say what they like because the person is ‘only a woman’.

    The industrial principal at Maurice Blackburn, Giri Sivaraman, said: ”I have been practising in this area for a number of years and this is the worst case of sexual harassment I have ever seen. She has shown amazing resolve to work in such toxic conditions.”

    Ms Britt was initially encouraged to work on the docks by her brother, who is also a stevedore.

    ”[He] told me it was well-paid with plenty of opportunities for women,” she told The Sun-Herald.

    But she was also warned ”there were people who didn’t like women being there”.

  224. Min, how does your friend know they bought on line. I find this hard to believe many would bother, unless it was some fad fashion or a. well known brand.

    what I find annoying, you cannot buy things like Microsoft direct. these products appear to be much dearer here than in the States.

    I find it amazing that you can buy on line products that are more expensive here. This in spite of the fact one pays much more for postage. I believe a container load would be much more cheaper per item than a singular item. The GST component does not make that much difference..

  225. CU, this was her opinion. She is a very experienced retailer of over 20 years. She observed that when things were the ‘up to the minute’ fashion items, for example Not Your Daughter’s Jeans she would have an endless stream of people coming in trying on, and walking out again. Dozens of people every day. Normal expectation is that she would have made a 1:20 sale, but it became a 1:100. And it was always the same fashion items and mostly those ‘must haves’ promoted in Women’s magazines. Simply, it became an identifiable pattern of behaviour.

    People are often fooled into thinking that they can buy things cheaper online. I never do because I find that I can successfully negotiate with local retailers anyway, most are prepared to come down on price. Plus if anything is wrong with the item, you can take it back for replacement..try doing that with online retailers.

  226. Min/Cu, I buy most of my small electrical items online from the USA. Retailers here make a killing. I can buy the items for a third of the price I would pay here which includes postage and insurance. When I went to America a couple of months ago I bought enough clothes to last five years. I’m sorry for the retailers here, but if I can save a squillian elsewhere then I’m entitled to go for it.

  227. Mind you, there are plenty of rogue sellers online. My rules are don’t buy from China, only buy from sellers with a very high rating, and use PayPal (for buyer protection).

  228. Thankfully Latham is no longer Labor’s problem. 😀

    Latham in hot water for spray as Mark and Steve Waugh’s mother ‘intimidated’

    MARK Latham has been reported to the Department of Education for intimidating the mother of former star cricketers Steve and Mark Waugh over a children’s swimming class.
    The 50-year-old former Labor leader angrily claimed his two children had learned nothing after less than half an hour in the pool at the free government swim program that Bev Waugh was running.

  229. Migs, the days are gone when the retailers went off shore, with no concern for local producers and flooded the market with over priced and sub quality clothes.

    They have had it their own way to long. With the advent of the access to the web, us stupid customers are realising what the real cost of what we have been buying, has been to the retailer.

    I buy thing such as wireless adaptors for two dollars plus small postage. I have not lost $50 if they break down. The quality is surprisingly good.they arrive within a week.

    A lot of what I buy on line locally now comes direct from China.

    A lot of what I buy is not available here.

    I have no interest in buying clothes, I find that different.

  230. Maybe Latham had a point. I have just watched the second course of lessons my daughter paid for in the next suburb. It was definitely waste of money.

  231. Miglo, certain retailers here aren’t too fussy about after sales service in my experience so buying some things online is worth the risk.

  232. PS. If it was not Latham, we would never had heard about the complaint.

    When one reads the story, it only says he complained on behalf of other parents and himself.

  233. Catching up,
    Who in their right mind would want to buy enough clothes to last 5 years. Miglo must have a very BIG wardrobe to store all of these. My father only ever owned 2 pairs of shoes. One pair for work and one pair for fishing.

  234. well AntonyG, he will definitely have to look after his figure.

    My problem is that I am not a clothes person, probably because none look that good on me.

  235. Antony, that reminds me so much of my father. Only add to this a pair of slippers. Dad’s feet were so rank that my mother used to have to put his slippers outside the bedroom door. I miss my dad a lot, one of nature’s gentlemen but he didn’t suffer fools lightly, however you could always rely on him for an honest opinion. If I want sympathy then it’s my mum that I go to, but for a logical appraisal of the situation then it was dad.

  236. Min, I just realise why I have problems with my kids. I also was not much good at sympathy and too quick to tell it as it is.

  237. Cu, it’s not about appearances and clothes certainly does not maketh the person. No I’m not a clothes person either, and hate shopping..a more boring tedious task I cannot imagine.

    Going through shopping centres these days are akin to walking through some horrible plastic, superficial, dead-brain zone. No originality, no soul.

  238. Cu..but I’ll bet that your kids come straight to you whenever they have a problem. Anyone can go aww poor you, but practical logical advise is often very hard to come by.

  239. Cu, I have to speak up for the swimming teachers.

    Mrs Waugh attempted to explain that the program aimed to teach a broad range of skills and emphasised water safety.

    Learning to swim competently and safely requires a lot of time and practice.

  240. It has to be really bad Min, before they come near me.

    As for shopping centres, one has to delve through the rubbish to find anything.

    It is a little like Coles and Woolworths deciding what will go on the shelves and therefore what we will buy.

  241. Pip, after two courses and four in the group, three would not still stop clinging to the teacher. Not good advertisement, I am afraid.

    A parent does have a right to complain. The Telegraph got out here fast.

    Are you going to say that after a lifetime of teaching, the lady has not had complaints before.

    I am not defending Mr. Latham, he could have been out of line, but I believe we have another storm in a teacup.

  242. But Mr Latham, towering over her slight frame, interrupted her to threaten to withdraw the children.

    “I am just letting you know that a lot of parents are going to be pulling their children out of the scheme,” he said, then turned his back and stomped away.

    Mrs Waugh, a qualified teacher who has been working for the Department of Education’s School Swim Scheme since the 1970s, was visibly shaken.

    Mrs Waugh’s only comment to The Sunday Telegraph was: “I wish I had said to him: Would you speak to your mother the way you have spoken to me?”

    Her supervisor has subsequently reported to the department that Mr Latham was “rude” and “intimidating” and was “flexing his muscle”.

    Given Latham’s previous televised bullying I don’t find this story hard to believe.

  243. Pip, having done my stint as a swimming teacher, it’s 2nd day of a 10 day Learn to Swim Program.

    When you run a Learn to Swim you have children from all stages of expertise, from kids who have never been in water other than running under the garden hose to kids who are proficient surfers.

    Day 1: assess children’s capabilities, not just what their parents say they can do because sometimes these are overrated. Place children in groups.

    Groups: children who have never been fully immersed in water and are frightened of it – children who have never been fully immersed but are keen to try – children who have been in a pool but have no swimming skills – in a pool some skills – proficient swimmers.

    As you can imagine just a small group of 15 children, might produce 5-6 levels of achievement. I have absolutely no idea about Mark Latham’s children swimming level, but sorry Mark it takes more than 2 days to even be able to accurately assess a child’s level. And why was he down at the pool anyway supervising a Learn to Swim class!

  244. Miglo it’s selfish pricks such as yourself who are sending small business under. You say that you’re entitled to go for it no care and no responsibilty all to save yourself a lousy dollar or 2.

  245. Zac, if I may impose myself, are retailers allowed to be selfish? They’re in business to make money, correct?

  246. You and your ilk are not supporting retailers you are supporting overseas multinationals who can sell cheap crap online. You are supporting taking jobs away from Australian workers just to save yourself a lousy dollar.

  247. Provide the products and service people require – they will come. If not, you’ll go out of business 😉

    Sounds like a Hardly Normal whinger to me – while JB Hi-Fi just get on with doing it properly…

  248. Hello Zac. About 0.00000001% of the stuff I’ve ever purchased in my life was bought online.

    Did it ever occur to you that some items people want to purchase may not be available in Australia?

  249. Bacchus, a few years ago I bought a noice reducing headset from an overseas seller and paid $167 dollars, which included postage and insurance. The same item was $479 from JB HiFi.

  250. Hello Miglo. Tell me about it, what piece of shit that you’ve bought online isn’t available in Australia. Let me guess, it’s a piece of ethnic art from South America.

  251. Migs,

    Obviously you can get some of their range cheaper online – the point I was trying to make is that you don’t hear them whinging “poor me” like so many retailers. They change the business and products to suit the market rather than sooking and blaming the customer, the government, the economy – everything but their own incompetance…

  252. Zac, I wanted to buy a Sony 3D camera but was told they weren’t available in Australia. So I bought one when I was in America.

    Simple logic.

  253. Bacchus, I would agree absolutely. JB Hi-Fi do it better with customer service and personal attention which is why I would never bother to buy online. Mind you Clive Anthony’s aren’t bad either. I got my HP Pavilion 3ghz, 8gb, 1TB HD $300.00 off RRP because it had been used as a display model.

  254. That doesn’t surprise Min – Clive Anthony’s is owned by the JB Hi-Fi Group…

    Another recent tale re online shopping:
    I will be starting a short course at UQ early next year and was looking at sourcing the text books yesterday. Result:
    American Book Store (Brisbane) $38.66
    UQ Co-op bookshop $49.95
    UK Book Depository $25.99 including shipping.

    Guess who got my business?

  255. Migs, re baby computer…it’s the one which you recommended. I was but going by your superior knowledge viz technical expertise….

  256. Bacchus,
    You clearly haven’t been a small business owner. Tell me smart arse how the local corner store is supposed to compete with the overseas international buyonline organisations.

    Your argument is the same reason why manufacturing industries in Australia are stuffed. It’s because it’s cheaper to go offshore.

    And then you lot whinge about not being able to understand the accent of the assistant in Singapore.

  257. The local corner store isn’t competeing with anyone other than Woolies & Coles – the ones that survive do so by offerring service & building up a loyal local customer base.

    Those businesses that do actually compete with the online retailers either have to adapt (by providing service and building customer loyalty) or change their business – go online themselves and/or change product range to meet the market.

    Too many SMEs are all about whinging while at the same time providing woeful service, and then blaming everyone else for their predicament.

    No, I don’t run a small business myself, however, my I never knew my father to work for a wage – always had his own business. My two best mates run their own businesses, my neighbour runs his own business.

    The things they have in common is they’re all very successful and none of them are whingers – they provide the service their customers require in the market they compete in. One of them, faced with a downturn in the building market, simply turned his hand to another business – once again, very successfully.

  258. Zac, you find what the people want and supply it.

    No good trying to sell what they do not want. There is always a niche market to fill.

    Whinging will not improve any business.

    People have a choice whether they go through your door or not.

  259. Thank you Migs @6.05pm. I would like it in a sort of, you know a peach color not too pink and not too orange, probably more beige but with a little more oomph. And I would like it with some sort of velvet Renaissance style bows, preferably a deep burgundy.

  260. Bacchus are your mates having to try to compete with online purchases. It’s one thing to supply bricks and tiles and cow poop but if you’re in the clothing or electrical small appliances business, then you’re in trouble.

    My mates aren’t whingers, they just want a level playing field. They have to pay their council rates, they employ locals and all associated fees. Markup on wholesale is hardly a decent living and people walk in, turn their noses up saying I can buy it cheaper online. Goodbye to the local trader.

  261. Thank you Miglo, yes I lurk. I must admit to being somewhat astounded about the response on this blog of my support of Australian business and workers. I thought that this blog was left leaning yet I come here and be accused of what, some stupid fuckin’ rant about Neil. Thanks for the welcome folks.

  262. If you don’t like it Zac – change your business – there’s no law says you’ve got to stick to something you’re obviously not too good at (or can no longer compete in).

    As things change, people with nous change too, but you’ll always get the dinosaurs who want the world to stay the same just so they can continue to do what they’ve always done. You’ll usually find them somewhere whinging about how things are “unfair”. Most of them are called “conservatives”. Maybe there’s a reason for that 😉

    Just thinking about my friends and acquaintances, i realised the only ones who work for wages are my immediate colleagues at work (and my “kids”) – ALL of my other friends work for themselves in a wide variety of industries.

  263. Zac I am one who often buys online yet also buys local wherever I can, even when that costs me more, purely for the support of the local businesses.

    Having said that and having been more often satisfied than not there have been the times when in buying local I have been well and truly ripped off, and when confronting the local business been more or less told stiff shit and to lump it.

    I then buy those goods online and find the same businesses complaining about online sales ruining their trade.

  264. I should also point out I’ll support an Australian business that provides what I need or want. That includes good service. I’ll pay more for a local product IF the business is helpful and provides a quality product. Where the quality is the same (like the books) and the service is mediocre or non-existant, I’ll choose the cheapest option.

    I realise this will mean some industries won’t survive in Australia – so be it. Many many businesses no longer exist that did even 10 years ago.

    “Adapt or perish”

  265. It was ironic that I could buy Australian brand clothes much cheaper in America than here in Oz. Billabong were a qtr of the price than they are here. A mate bought a jacket for $20 – in Adelaide he saw the same thing for $330. Extreme case, but incredible.

  266. That’s a simple one Migs, scale of economy. A 300 million market as compared to 20 million.

    It’s why when living in the US I questioned how brands could survive in a supermarket when there were in some cases 20 to 30 different brands of a product on offer, and some of those were the biggest brands in the world, e.g. Kellogs, Johnson’s, Colgate, Heinz, McCains etc. and was told they only need 3% of the sales in the supermarkets around the US and can make good money.

    No brand could survive on 3% of sales from Australian supermarkets.

  267. Mobius Ecko and your comment “when in buying local I have been well and truly ripped off”.

    I agree to a certain extent. When you’re dealing with a small time retailer in country town, it’s worth considering that these retailers cannot get the same price wholesale as the big boys. Hell, they have enough problems trying to compete with KMart and BigW and now also have to compete with online as well.

  268. I can see by his writing skills that Zac would be a real gem as a retailer..
    All the qualities and attributes of that fulfilling retail experience we so enjoy.

  269. Bacchus and “adapt or perish”. You’re the only electrical store in town and your main sales are kettles, toasters, a few televisions, fridges, freezers and vaccum cleaners. How is this business supposed to adapt, it can’t it perishes.

  270. Thank you Sue, yes my background is a small retailer. My parents used to have the lolly shop in Vermont on Canterbury road. If there are any Melbourne-ites on board they might have dropped in coming back from their Sunday drive.

  271. well Miglo, you are correct, it is Coles and Woollies she should be attacking.

    People will pay for special services, like having fruit delivered to the door.

  272. Zac,

    If you’ve built up a good business, known for helpful advice and after sales service, you’re more likely to survive than if you’ve taken your monopoly position for granted for years, ripping off your customers.

    All of the appliances you mention I would buy at a local store rather than online anyway – the only question here is which store…The one who replaced my kettle when it stopped working after a week, or the one where they told me I’d have to send my toaster back to the wholesaler at my own expense if I wanted a replacement? (hypothetical only – this hasn’t happened to me).

  273. Zac, the world is not only a global economy but is fast becoming a global village. We live in a virtual reality.

  274. Catching up with Catching Up, I had to leave our thread about the swimming classes…

    I was a little clinger, and I still swim with my head out of the water 😀

  275. Bacchus,
    You are right of course. Small businesses survive because of the personal service. I know that I can drop into my local men’s wear store and can kill a good half hour talking to Garry and his missus. They’re doing ok because they’re the only mens’ wear shop in town and so is what we call ‘the old ladies shop’. Betty is a living treasure, she and her sister have had the shop since the end of world war 2. Still some struggle to survive and in small country towns there is the feeling of responsibility because so many people are relying on them staying open.

  276. Agreed Zac, and I suspect you’re also one who provides exemplary service 😉
    The problem in smaller centres is related to what Möbius Ecko was saying before about market size. You can’t afford to lose any business to outside (larger towns or online), so keeping your customers happy becomes even more important. It’s probably one of the reasons why you get better service in the country than in the city.

    One area that did surprise me lately for service was Noosaville, believe it or not. Everywhere we went, all business people went out of their way to ensure we were getting good service – I was most impressed.

  277. Sky has been running Tony Abbott full on..allll afternoon…the mute button on the remote is now wearing a permanent indentation. 👿

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