Labor’s vision for Australia misses one huge detail

 

I received this email today:

Michael,

Some time ago I wrote to you asking you to complete a survey so I could see what you believed was Labor’s direction for the future.

Today our party – the oldest organised labour party in the world – is undergoing a process of grassroots reform and revitalisation. That’s why this was such a tremendous opportunity to hear from you.

I wanted to make sure all of you got a chance to see the results of this survey and what our community’s vision for the future of Labor was. Read our report and take your chance to share my favourite part of this job – listening to people about the things that matter most.

Thanks for your support,

George Wright
National Secretary

For whatever reason, I didn’t complete the survey. Nonetheless, I was interested to read the report.

Sadly, it told me little, but I was extremely disappointed with the summary. Here is a part of it:

The policy areas of importance to supporters, namely healthcare, climate change, the NBN & schools funding, were policy areas already championed by the Party.

So why am I disappointed? I’m disappointed because Labor’s vision for the future doesn’t include on-shore processing of asylum seekers. It obviously wasn’t an issue for the respondents. Not surprising when you consider that:

Respondents generally used the internet either every day, regularly consumed media television (68.10%) & radio news (65.18%), as well as Facebook (49.64%) and online newspapers (49.08%).

So there you have it: most respondents still favour mainstream media over social media.

If we want to change Labor’s vision, we first need to change where its members get their news and opinion. Then we can really tell Labor what we think of  off-shore processing of asylum seekers. And maybe they’ll listen.

 

58 comments on “Labor’s vision for Australia misses one huge detail

  1. If they were really interested in your opinion, they would read your aim blogs. It’s all there. Don’t you think?

  2. I also ignored the survey and skimmed the report.

    Labor will only the party I vote for because there is no credible Indie standing in my electorate, the Green candidate won’t be up to par as is the norm here and Labor becomes the default.

    Up until the last election I voted for a Liberal, Joanna Gash. She is by far the best local candidate I’ve ever come across and was streaks ahead of the stooge Labor candidate. Most times we don’t have Indies standing.

    Gash stood down when Abbott won the leadership, she obviously saw the writing on the wall, and Abbott did dud her out of a promised portfolio in one of his now well known lies. Gash’s replacement is an Abbott toady so hasn’t got my vote and no Liberal will until they get back to the great party they were before Howard damaged them and Abbott totally wrecked them.

  3. I have pointed them in the direction of the AIMN and TPS via my local member. He passed my email onto the federal directorate…

  4. A pity I didn’t fill out the survey either due to one of the busiest months in my life this last April but I would have raised the asylum seeker policy and the uncapped 457 visa policy. Both are unsustainable and inflicting a lot of suffering on people both Australian and non Australian.
    I am not so sure Bill is really listening to the rank and file members though.

  5. The Liberal Party have never been a great party. The Greens are currently the only party with a coherent and comprehensive policy agenda and an interest in making this country a better place for all – and by a better place, I mean a place with sound values; compassion; understanding; a rational and intelligent approach to policy that is based on evidence; and a respect for the environment and what our land will be like for future generations.

    The two major parties share many flaws and a few differences but the major flaw that is common to them is that they both devote more effort into obtaining and retaining power than they do into listening, reasoning, collaborating and seeking to reorientate a nation that has been conditioned to see materialism and accumulation of wealth as the raison d’etre for life. The individualism and competition that result from this do nothing to improve the well-being of the population or to promote progress towards real happiness or contentment and significant enjoyment of life.

    I agree, Michael, that somehow a counter to traditional conditioning via socialisation, religion, a biased media; soporific television; preoccupation with sport elevated to the status of religion; egocentric social media networks; worship of (generally) brainless celebrity and rapidly increasing acceptance of an inability to speak or write with any clarity or a vocabulary exceeding that in Enid Blyton’s works (400 words).

    The ALP is redundant in its present form and retains any vote only because of its past representation of workers, its association with the unions, habit and old-fashioned loyalty, and what currently has become effectively a two party system with the other option being out of the question for anyone who believes in government for the people.

    It’s not enough, however, for the ALP simply to change the ways in which it gets its message across. First of all, it needs to have a message. At present, it clearly hasn’t got one. The old, “worker against boss” script no longer flies. Neither is playing the Liberal game of rock throwing a sensible strategy, yet that is all that has been evident since Bill Shorten’s ascendancy to the top job. That is not necessarily a criticism of Bill, or at least not of Bill alone. It is a deficiency in the party as a whole. Yes, they have talked of change and some effort has been made or is being made to democratise the structure and rid itself of some lead weight rules that are no longer relevant and just hold it back.

    However, what is needed more than anything is to recognise that the public are sickened of politicians of whatever persuasion who simply seem concerned with feathering their own nests, staying in power, and eventually retiring with pensions and perks far beyond that of the average Australian.

    If the ALP is to regain its credibility then it must decide for what and whom it stands and must be able to articulate this simply and clearly. In my view, it should also seek coalition with the Greens for, as I said previously, they are currently the only party with a rational and caring agenda, and a good number of ex or potential Labor supporters recognise those views as worthwhile. The one thing that Labor has to *not do* is to continue to vote with the LNP on issues of convention, parliamentary entitlements and such.

    Labor must also stop arguing in the Liberal’s playing field, ie. simply attacking anything that the Liberals say about the economy. Labor must stop being fooled into fighting on the Liberal’s territory. I know, and you know, that the Liberal’s figures are rubbery and their statistics selectively culled so that they apparently support whatever barrow they wish to push. Unfortunately, the general public are already conditioned to believe that the LNP are the best economic managers and Labor are spendthrifts. That is not the case but the idea is well entrenched in the sub-conscious of most voters.

    Labor needs to fight on its own terms, on its own territory and using its own timing. The aims of the party must be portrayed in terms not of dollars and cents and more materialistic clap-trap but in terms of well-being. Yes, I know, as does any sane person that currently our world revolves around money. That is not to say that it is right for it to do so nor that so doing benefits most of the population. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence that such is not the case. Money talk, today, raises in people’s minds the thought of corruption. It is a major negative. A turn off. Ally that to the unconscious belief that the Liberals handle money better and are somehow, ‘more respectable’ and conservative, and it is a downer for Labor.

    I only hope that Labor can reinvent itself in a form that is both consistent with the modern age but that also has vision and sees other than the one path and one metric for establishing worth for the nation. It needs real vision and the courage to offer it to the people. Only then, in my opinion, will it regain mass support.

  6. Nice succinct piece, straight to the point. You make a statement about changing labour voters ideology; “we first need to change where its members get their news and opinion”. I wholly concur, yet this seems to be not just the problem of labour supporters but the majority of Australians. Without meaning to sound too crass, I feel we’re still very much a nation of mushrooms: kept in the dark and fed manure…

  7. Michael,

    As far as social media goes, Bill Shorten is just an inadequate a figurehead. It’s the organisational side of Labor that we need to influence…

  8. I’m looking forward to seeing what Labor does with its new media outreach, Labor Herald. In the right hands it could be a revitalising influence for the faithful and a meaningful sounding board and melting pot for ideas. It won’t, unfortunately, have any impact on those who get their political opinions from News Ltd.

    Whilst asylum seeker policy is important to me, it’s not a first-order issue, and the list provided above are far more pressing. I suspect that there are many left-oriented voters out there like me, for whom poor treatment of asylum seekers, whilst reprehensible, is not a deal breaker.

    The information provided here does not clarify what kinds of MSM contributors generally followed. Being a Labor party survey, it’s probably safe to assume that for most it is not News Ltd and the right-wing media. Fairfax and the ABC both have moderate positions on asylum seeker policy and it’s unfair to assume that survey respondents were not interested in asylum seekers because they read the wrong kinds of media.

  9. A vast majority of voters are against Asylum Seekers, and sadly both Labor & the LNP are using that, as their number one tool in winning their elections.

  10. OF – unfortunately the Labor Herald will be a mouthpiece for the Unions.
    Highlighting their achievements for workers eg the recent quasi Labor Day
    march last Monday in Brisbane. March from 9-10 Pub from 10- till drop.
    It will be a propaganda publication not suitable for intellectual CWs

  11. As someone who did do the survey, I must also admit to not feeling that asylum seeker policy was in my top three choices of what was of importance to me about the type of Australia I would like to live in. A humane asylum seeker policy is something which will happen,,combined with other such policies, when we are able to return to being a decent Australia once again. Unfortunately, Howard dog whistled an entire nation allowing the nastiness to become the norm. This will take time to change. As will trying to divert people away from mainstream media & break the habits of a lifetime. When cafes stop providing free Murdoch garbage for their customers to read, while sipping coffee, will be a great start…

    It is all too easy to criticise but major efforts are being made to listen to rank & file members of the Labor Party. Join your local branch, go to the meetings, participate in helping to formulate policy… I have & it is invigorating knowing you are dong something rather than rant & rave from afar. Then, of course, there is the importance of having a say in who your local ALP candidate will be.

    The enemy is not the ALP it is Abbott & his cohort. .As for the Greens, well, I’m afraid Christine Milne is way too comfortable in doing deals with the Liberals for my liking. This is possibly due to her history of being in a Coalition with them whilst in state government in Tasmania Who knows. Also, some state Greens are quite happy to send their preferences away from the ALP as has happened. I can’t trust them.

  12. Well said Joy. At least I was invited and responded. I feel at least part of the process and perhaps even own a bit of it. Easy to pass judgment though.

  13. So Voyager, you have issues thinking that the Labor Herald will just be a mouthpiece for the unions. On that rationale, you can understand our problem with the Murdoch media being a mouthpiece for the Liberal Party.

    Oh, how silly of me. Of course you won’t understand.

  14. Please note that VOYAGER has avoided the discussions on Abbott and this government and only now popped up his head because it’s a discussion about Labor.

  15. Excuse me Joy Cooper ? You are clearly not a Tasmanian ? Christine Milne has NEVER been in a govt coalition with the Liberals in Tassie. NOT EVER. The Greens have a a number of occasions supported a minority Labor government – the Liberals down here would NEVER accept Green support (well ,not unless they absolutely had to to hang on to power). The Greens either State or Federal are the ONLY party in the country who maintain their prinicples and who are willing to work with whoever from whichever party to further the best aims for the country without completely trashing those basic prinicples. Will they compromise ? yes. will they do deals ? yes. That’s what Parliament is supposed to be about, members talking, dsicussing, compromising on behalf of thier constituents – us, the people. Not what we have now, an elite group of men who make decisions behind closed doors rubber stamped by the rest of the mob. Thank goodness at the moment for the Senate.

  16. VOYAGER – Brisbane – Sydney @ May 8, 2014 @ 10:06 pm “Did not know that dinosaurs had TV’s, Radios, Facebook or Online newspapers.”

    Generally they haven’t Voyager. But then, a lot are now discovering all the alternative views to MSM, after they have realised things aren’t making sense against what they were told and what has happened.

    As a lot of people are talking. People are beginning to realise there is a whole conversation taking place in their Community outside of Media, of which they are ignorant about, because it is against the grain of everything they thought, believed and were told is truth their whole life. It is making them wonder why, and they are discovering how much they are not being told by those they thought they could trust to inform them, because they did operate honestly once before, even though they may not now. The intelligent ones are asking why. The ignorant and stupid don’t trust their own decisions enough, so will always want someone to tell them how to think and what to do, as always, maybe in order to avoid responsibility for anything. There are a lot of people who will gladly fill that demand, but they will make sure it is for their profit and at no expense to them and their intentions are generally not altruistic to the others they say they care for.

    Australia, generally, has always depended on people doing the right thing, or the wrong thing to a point, so much so we codified it into our Laws. But never to the detriment of the general Commonwealth of all, with such malice, brought on by a mentality of vengeance by those who feel that a Community is not their wanting in delivering the advantage they believe should be theirs, for whatever measure their belief of worthiness attains to. Such they believe, it should not exist in the way it has, regardless of what anyone else desires, as they want it their way, to profit them alone and the weak and voiceless should hurry up and die conveniently and pass the wealth their way while you’re at it now.

    Normal people grow out of such behaviour, by the age of five, as it is sociably unacceptable. There will always be those who will use and show acceptance to someone else, only to gain advantage for themselves. That is not friendship, loyalty nor love. It is Usury.

    Everyone knows that bad times always come between the good times. Some people are ok to pay their way to make sure when their time comes, a Community will be there to help support them through the trough, just as they did for others in their good times. It was the Australian way of looking after your mate.

    But some feel they are above those, that make it possible to have the benefits they enjoy, regardless of how they came to be in that privileged position. But listen carefully to the demands and those on which they hurl scorn upon, you will see it for what it is, selfishness. That we teach our Children is rude, unseemly and unacceptable. So why is it today we excuse it amongst Adults, but not Children?

    Wealth does not equate to righteousness, even though our Media today promotes such. Even you will see the danger in such. Even you are vulnerable to such viciousness. I would not want it to happen to you either. Don’t wish it on others, for such is inhumane.

    The civilisation of Man has prospered in Communities for millennia. It has served us well and without it, we would not be where we are today. When it fails, we find only War prevails, and if you have never lived in the middle of War, take the advice of those that have, you don’t want to.

    A lot of Australians are now discovering what a lot of the peoples of the World came here to escape from. We created something desirable for ourselves, against every odd stacked against our Commonwealth, so do we now destroy it, just so others won’t come here seeking it? That would be stupidity, as we would be cutting our own throats to spite someone else. That is what we are being told to do and being advised is acceptable. It is, if someone wants you out of their way to your Wealth.

    In the end, I respect your right to have a different view, but just as I have no right to impose my choices on you, you like wise have no choice to impose your demands on me. But if you choose to place my loved ones in danger or at unnecessary risk by your actions and choices, I will show you firsthand what it is people are trying to come here and escape from. I am no stranger to ruthlessness. I have seen what war is first hand. You will want to flee it too, if you are wise. The first victim of War is always innocence. Most Australian’s are ignorant to that horror and in their innocence, into how nasty some can be to others of their own species, let alone others and come to the realisation that this danger has been blunted in this Nation, by our mutual respect for Law.

    When Law become a weapon for the cruel and selfish, you realise what it is we have lost, which was what made our nation so desirable before. The respect for life, regardless of who you are, in a Justice which shows no favour because of status. This was what made this country desirable. Not $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ as they want you to believe, since that is all that matters to them, who want what you currently have.

  17. It is frustrating to read advice intended to tell Labor how it can improve itself but which is so general in its expression that it is difficult to work out what is required in practical terms.

    The debate is stifled by the fact that Labor is opposed by a battery of privately owned newspapers and electronic media. Getting effective print space or air time is difficult.

    In the MSM too much of the Labor message, when it has been given even a small amount of space or time, has been sidetracked by criticism of accent, “insincere gestures’, clothing, hair… Or for giving press interviews after church on the front steps.. Or in the case of some students attacking a Coalition, of disrupting a regulated polite TV show.

    In short, the Coalition wants any opposition to simply Shut up! – and they will actually say that.

    Now I am not a PR person, but the first thing is that Labor and its supporters need to speak up – and if that means metaphorically throwing stones, so be it. But if some aspect of Coalition policy is to be criticised, the effects of that policy on people should be explained and the Labor policy should be clearly contrasted with the Coalition policy. The Labor principles are about people; the Coalition speaks alwys about the money!

    All Labor politicians should be speaking up, not just Bill, and especially those in Shadow portfolios. It was good to see Swan defend his economic achievements recently. It would be good to see Albanese, Bowen, Plibersek and Wong speaking up with their speaking skills (far superior to Abbott’s).

    And with no leaking of factional differences – best kept to the party room. There must be a united front.

    And Labor candidates need to get out into he field. I have never seen a politician of any persuasion in my electorate for the past 35 years. I have no idea what the incumbent Coalition person does; all we get is mass-produced Coalition propaganda.

    Meanwhile Labor is reviewing its processes, seeking to recruit members. Good to see the archaic requirement of being a union member is under scrutiny.

    Then we have the people’s voice, such as we see so strong on social media and journalism. We need to exploit loudly the cracks appearing in the Coalition itself and in business. A house of cards just needs a push in the right place to topple it.

    We need supporters to be involved in the revival of Labor with the goal of re-election as soon as possible. That means doing more than just waiting for Abbott to fall over.

  18. Then his twitter account is run by appointed staff. What a shame. Perhaps you should bombard his ministerial office with your blogs and demand answers? Nah. Copy and paste your entries in the format they want and get answers. That should do it.

  19. Can I use the Prime Sinister’s format of “No.” “No!” “No” and “no”. “No, no, no”. “Gold plated No”. “Dead and buried no”. Written down, signed and approved “No”. “No”.

    Will that help Australia? “No.”
    Bugger!

  20. No VOYAGER you don’t think going by that last statement.

    What do you say to Howard’s three enquiries into the ABC, with the most comprehensive finding a slight bias for his government. Every other enquiry has found no bias but over the last six years there was a definite strong bias against the Labor government and for the Abbott opposition. Any enquiry into that period would find that.

    So what do you base your statement of the ABC being the mouthpiece of the Left on? Also consider Hawke called the ABC a mouthpiece of the Right.

  21. I have been an swinging voter for most of my voting life, mainly independents. I only came back to Labor because of Julia. The obvious unfair bashing she was copping from the MSM/IPA/LNP about the Carbon PRICE peeked my interest. I have considered joining the ALP but my past voting ‘style’ and the horrid in-fighting has been, some what, off-putting.
    BUT if Labor were to embrace the logic of ON-SHORE processing I would join ‘like a shot.’ …… as it is I’m leaning towards the Greens more and more…… just sayin 🙂
    P.S. I am a proud Union member and have been all my working life, but that dosn’t mean to say that I will automatically vote for, or agree with, the ALP….. but rest assured, (and though I have in the past,) I will NEVER… EVER …vote LNP again because of abbott and co.

  22. We have too many hacks either as MPs or working for them. factional bosses and staff who do NOTHINg for us. A parliamentary team in Canberra that is so quiet that even mice are worried. We have those who know everything ignoring the grass roots…

  23. Lovo and Ange show the total failure of ALP/Union click. The Greens under that
    mealy mouthed woman , have no workable policies for an Elected Government.
    Everything is just a wish wash of last nights dream. Have caused so much
    damage in the past for elected Governments of both persuasions.
    Trust a Green – just trust a fox with a chicken more.

  24. vBS, just so ya k-know, CW has had SPAM in the same vein as your comment…… and it was morest betterer…..well at least comprehension wise…. go figure :/ …and as 4 the… wish wash…:D ….of last nights dreams 😆 ( how embarrassment 😮 )
    P.S. vBS, I do so-o-o luv how ya don’t know how ya give so-o-o much,…on ya …. and keep up the good work 😉 ( we will make a do GOODERER out of you yet)….no, really………………………………………………………………….and yet 😕

  25. Not the main focus of the post, but I see mention of the Greens. Not to be trusted are the Greens. I’ve spoken of this before but after becoming increasingly disillusioned with them I gave up finally when Rudd’s MRRT was destroyed. Day after day after day the Australian thundered against it & had its views disseminated by the rest of the media. Night after night we were treated to news of “Modelling” by the mining companies guaranteeing the loss of three million jobs in the Lake Wyangan area alone if it went ahead. And when the barrages ceased the Greens emerged from the bunkers where they’d been sheltering to deploy some marksmen with their weapons trained on- the ALP. Gutless according to the Greens who would’ve imposed much larger taxes than the ALP’S little efforts, yes indeedy they would That went on for a bit but there’s more. They bignoted themselves over the Malaysia deal & ended up with far worse. And that’s the main point, whenever the ALP’s gone into any sort of partnership with the Greens it’s not ended well. Or for the cause the Greens purport to represent. They stuffed around in a holier than thou fashion with initial carbon pricing deals, gave Gillard precious little support with the one she finally went with. And look what we’ve got in that department now. But that’s OK because it still leaves the Greens able to criticise anyone at all for not living up to their own standards. About the only thing I ever agreed with Chris Kenny on was his statement about the Greens. He said they’re a.. wait for it…. Political Party. With its own agendas not necessarily for public consumption. A party with its own crusading generals, for whom the wars must go on. To end them either way is to remove the generals’ reason for being.

  26. Will there come a time when the ALP stops talking about itself and turns its focus on issues of concern?

  27. So Michael wants on-shore processing of asylum seekers.
    An admirable dream, but the last time that sort of thing was tried, the candy was back on the table and over 1000 drowned as a mix of asylum seekers, scammers and economic migrants with no skills, tried to flood in to this country.
    Tens of thousands of arrivals by boat put millions of dollars into the pockets of people smugglers and corrupt Indonesian officials.

    You lot really don’t learn, do you ?

  28. They really are of are very narrow closed mindset aren’t they Michael?

    They can only ever think in terms of black and white and a neat little box that that the Liberal’s tell them to think in and solutions wider than that, outside of the box, are way beyond their comprehension.

  29. Voyager, whatever medication, or whatever it is that is warping your reality, get off it. It is most definately not helping you cope with treality very well.

  30. Fanci Full Maybe your comment is aimed at the wrong side, One can ask, when will Abbott’s supporters begin talking about what this government is doing. Sick of hearing how bad that Labor has done, all the way back to Federation, it seems.

    Most here, from the left, have left the past go, and are talking about what we are facing now.

    If one has concerns that the rich should pay more for health treatment, the answer is simple, put up the levy. Yes, ensure they do pay their fair share.

    Taking expensive actions, that adds to the cost, and undermines the universally of Medicare is not the way to go.

    Be aware of the so called infrastructure PM. Look very careful at those roads, some not that important are being funded. Might find the taxpayer is getting much less for their buck. In fact could even find they are being conned.

  31. Michael, as boats are still be turned back, it appears they must still be coming. Morrison says all will be settled in PNG. They say, at the same time, they will be deciding who they take,. Who does one believe.

    It could be, that what Labor achieved with Indonesia and PNG has more to do with the slow down of boats. Thanks to changes in the Indonesia visa system, a great number are not getting entry to that country, therefore cannot get on the boats.

    I suspect we do not have to treat these people in a sadistic and cruel manner, to get results.

  32. We have seen Labour productivity increase over the last decade, while that share of

    That is what Abbott’s brain fart and stunt of forgoing their wage rises this morning,. A way of keeping PS wages down.

  33. I completely agree with you – the fact that the ALP have turned their backs on what I have no doubt most of the party members believe is morally and ethically important issue is revolting. Pandering to the inhumane, selfish values of the xenophobic is wrong – regardless of the size of the portion of the votership they represent. If there is one thing we learned from Socrates, it is that it is possible for the majority to be wrong.

  34. The only vision the ALP has for Australia is too put into prison anybody who disagrees with ALP policies.

  35. Tens of thousands of arrivals by boat put millions of dollars into the pockets of people smugglers and corrupt Indonesian officials”

    Yep and voted for by most of the people who post here.

    The worst thing is that thousands of people from UNCHR camps were denied places because Adrian, Michael, FU, LOVO, BSA Bob, Roswell et al voted for Rudd in 2007..

    These people have destroyed the lives of tens of thousands of people and they do not care.

  36. Umm, NoS…. umm, as I have said before I voted for Sussan Ley, an LNP MP, at the 2007 election. So please don’t include me in that ‘line-up’ of dithpicable rascals…. 😛
    I just won’t have it I tells you *thumps desk* …… *crickets*

  37. The twists and contortions the right wingers are going through at the moment to either avoid, obfuscate, misrepresent and outright lie on Abbott’s string of broken promises and policy backflips is something to behold.

  38. Neil of Sydney – Your comments display an unfortunately common but febrile confusion about who is doing what, to whom, and why.

    Your assertions here are ridiculous. They fly in the face of the historical record, have negligible credibility and even fail to advance the LNP cause that appears to be what motivates you.

    The ALP has made many mistakes and some of its representatives have not been what most of us would wish. However the ALP has been the only political party in Australian history that has consistently worked for an equitable society and in so doing accomplished many significant reforms to the benefit of the large mass of the population who have limited means and limited say.

    The ALP is certainly undergoing a period of internal friction such as is always the case when realignment takes place. That is not a sign of weakness or lack of vision but rather a recognition that some of its processes need to change. It is not a sign that its underlying principle of protection of the common man and woman is lost.

    You may continue your abusive tirade of absurdities if you wish. I’m sure that you will not be on your own. However, unless you are fortunate enough to be earning upwards of $200,000 per year or you are independently wealthy, you will do yourself no favours by denigrating the ALP and supporting the Liberal, National, or Country Parties – or any combination of them.

    We have evidence enough from the very statements of the LNP before the last election and the contradictory actions since it, that they are neither to be trusted nor have any concern for ordinary men and women of this country nor compassion for asylum seekers and refugees.

    Those in the country who currently support the National or Country Parties or their elements within the Coalition, if they stopped and thought about it for even a few minutes, would see that their interests are currently better represented by the GREENS than by the Coalition or its “country” components.

    You are ignorant, Neil. Unless you have some rational and reasonable point to make, I suggest you chuff off and graffiti a wall or pick your nose for your ignorance, I am sure, is wasted on most others who comment here.

  39. What I do not understand, is why there where no previous training programmed for retrospect installation in roof cavities, considering this had been goings on for over fifty years. Can anyone point to pone training programme anywhere in the country.

    If one was sitting in the meetings, leading up to the beginning of the programme, most would have heard, yes there has been deaths but assumed that state bodies had dealt with this issue. In fact all contracts involved a clause, that state health and safety regulations were to be followed. It is not unreasonable, for them at the time, to assume this duty of care, remained with the employer.

    What other industry, that one expects the Federal government to put training programmes into place, for every contract signed.

    . Do we demand that contractors that win contracts for roads, enrol all their employers, in Federal training courses. Does one not assume, that if one employs workers to install the batts, that they employer would ensure his workers safety.

    At the end of the day, Garrett had banned metals staples. Also, it is illegal under all state laws to use metal poles, within the roof cavity.,

    Therefore how can one say that Garrett did not take due care.

    The bosses, in relation to the deaths, themselves should have been aware of the dangers, The firms where electrical.

    Arbid has just pointed out, this was five years ago. Also, it is a fact, he was only a side player. Arbib, if one follows his evidence, was more interested in putting in place, procedures so crooks and fly by nighters would not rip the system off. In this,I believe they were successful.

    One should keep in mind, retrospect installation had been going on for nigh on fifty or more years. During that time, I cannot recall any headlines, saying how dangerous the job was., In fact most seen it as something, the home owner himself, or in my case, herself could do.

    I cannot see these people during this time, sitting around, terribly excited by the report of the deaths in NZ. In fact, deaths in roof cavities is not unusual among electrical tradesmen. I seems the metal staples and steel rods was seen as the cause of deaths, These were banned by the federal government. One could assume that the matter had been dealt with.

    If Occupational and safety rules had been followed, there would have been no deaths.

    Are there any warnings on the packaging of the batts? One would think so, if there had been evidence of deaths over the years.

  40. Hope Abbott’s roads do not go underground, or over bridges. Been known to cause deaths over the years. I take it, that Abbott will set up training for all workers to complete, before they start work.

  41. I noticed, that when I had my solar panels put upon my roof, the installers entered my roof cavity. Should that programme also be terminated.

  42. LOVO @ May 12, 2014 @ 11:12 am “Except for the prison that is his ideology!”

    Sorry Lovo, that is the situation that is currently imprisoning us all across the Nation, supporters and not.

  43. Fed up, ever since we were forced to witness the contest between the Maltese Pigeon and Bill Shorterm we’ve been treated to ALP ‘luminaries’ offering advice on the future direction for the ALP. It’s been ‘ditch the unions’, ‘no do not ditch the unions’, ‘get rid of the factions’, ‘let us rebuild the party’ etc. When will the ALP stop gazing in the mirror and get down to do its job of holding the government to account?

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