AGW – Talkabout III

As suggested, this where you can argue all you like about climate change.

358 comments on “AGW – Talkabout III

  1. Hi folks,

    My comments are in response to those on “AGW – Talkabout II”

    Hi Truth Seeker,

    You persist in pouring out the propaganda that you have swallowed hook, line and sinker instead of learning something about the subject of Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Change (CACC). For goodness sake get wise, do some proper reading and think for yourself for a change.

    A good starting point is Christopher Booker and Richard North’s “Scared to Death”, Chapter 4 “Saving the Planet” World”. It was published in 2007 but has lost none of its relevance to the debate. Look and learn. As you said “ .. The depth of your delusion and sadness knows no bounds. 😦 😦 😦 .. ”.

    Hi el gordo,

    You have only yourself to blame for others not really knowing what you are. Try using your real name instead of hiding. As for Julia, well, she’s a politician so is driven by self-interest. Then you talk about those useless windmills and solar panels that this equally useless UK Government is wasting £Billions on and forcing the taxpayer to foot the bill through much higher energy bills. I don’t know how many are aware that for every £1’s-worth of electrical energy from renewables sold to the customer the energy company gets an additional £1 in subsidy. According to the Royal Accademy of Engineering in 2004 the relative costs of electrical energy for Gas:Nuclear:Coal:Wind (onshore):Wind (Offshore) are 2.2:2.3:2.5:5.4:7.2.

    No doubt one of th eCACC supporters here will use the favoured unsubstantiated claim that “in the future prices of renewable will fall”. It’s a bit like the CACC propaganda – its all “in the future”.

    As for early snow, we’re having another batch tonight – Uuffggghhh – and there was Dr. David Viner of the UK’s “centre of CACC excellence” saying in 2000 “Our children won’t know what snow is” !!!!!

    Hi Cuppa,

    You are delusional if you really believe that any tax on that essential life-supporting substance CO2 will have any noticeable impact upon the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. Human emissions account for about 3% and Australia’s contribution to that 3% is so small that you need a large string of 0000s before there’s a non-zero one. On top of that the developing economies will be using more and more fossil fuels as their populations (2 billion or more althogether) start realising their ambitions, which includes being able to spend time in paces like Cafés chatting about climate change rather than striving to survive.

    As for the rest of your rants – well, ‘nuff said!

    Hi P.J.

    Those were fine rants about fairy tales etc. Where on earth did you pluck that “fifty thousand scientists” from? – even the IPCC only claims about 1,500. How about trying to say something intelligent for a change. I know it will be hard at first but it gets easier with time. Just say to yourself “I must try harder”! Perhaps I can now understand why you are ashamed to use your real name. Your family and friends might not be too impressed.

    Hi Möbius Ecko,

    I hate to say it but I agree on those 125 “scientists” and made the same point in an E-mail thread yesterday involving fellow CACC sceptics. The “CEO & Legal Consultant” of bloggijng group Principia Scientific International was boasting about 9 of his group members being on that list. The gist of my E-mail was QUOTE: .. There is excessive euphoria in some quarters over those “ .. Nine leading scientists from Principia Scientific International (PSI) .. among the 125-plus signatories of a key open letter last week to UN Secretary-General, Ban Ki-Moon .. ” ( and

    There are only 8 names from that list .. that I recognise as being claimed as members of PSI .. Timothy F. Ball .. Oliver Manuel .. Terri Jackson .. Nils-Axel Mörner .. Piers Corbyn .. Joe Bastardi .. Cornelia Codreanova .. Bryan Leyland. It seems to me that referring to all of these individuals as “ .. leading scientists .. ” in the context of the processes and drivers of the different global climates is stretching the imagination somewhat too far. Also, whoever agreed to the names of anyone who is claimed to be a member of PSI being placed on the list may not realise the impact that has on how seriously the open letter will be taken by supporters and rejectors of the CACC hypothesis alike .. UNQUOTE.

    Reaction so far from the recipients has been mixed – but that is what happens in open and fair debate.

    There’s more on PI at “SpotlightOn- Principia Scientific International (

    Hi LOVO,

    Don’t get too excited over that paper on ice loss from Greenland and the Antarctic. It may sound frightening that loss appears to be more than was thopught 30 years ago but you have to ask yourself how ice lost relates to ice in place. It’s trivial!. Even if loss continued at the same rate as is claimed it would take 1000s of years for it all to melt – so what’s your panic?. Nature can wreak havoc on the different global climates in that time if she chooses and we have no control over it whatever. All that we humans and other forms of life can do is ADAPT.

    Please don’t come back with the “precautionary principle” because that just doesn’t wash. There is a risk of a catastrophic explosion from beneath Yellowstone any time now ( – what do you recommend we do about that? Get real!

    Hi Miglo,

    Sorry but you are wrong – climate change has alays been upon us!

    Now I must leave you guys because I have more important discussions elsewhere. Stop panicking and enjoy the benefits of modern living in a developed country. Think what horrible lives you’d have had in your parents’ homelands only 100 years ago or 2Billion are having now in other parts of the world. .

    Best regards, Pete Ridley

  2. “Those were fine rants about fairy tales etc. Where on earth did you pluck that “fifty thousand scientists” from? – even the IPCC only claims about 1,500.”

    Peter Ridley knows diddley.

    Use my real name surely you jest Peter? It is bad enough I use my real e.mail.
    I may be a lot of things, but being NOT well schooled in the history of government spying on its citizens, is not one of them. Although in my case, and at my age, I really don’t give a jot really. I am not a threat to national security, well at this stage of my dotage anyways.

    You really don’t get it do you Peter? I will not waste my time discussing something I admit I know very little about, quoting this and that providing links, it is an utter waste of time my view is as fixed as yours. I will change that view when I see evidence to the contrary. But as a layman on the subject, my opinion on the matter is as good as anyone’s not so qualified to give it. I like most people rely on scientists and other academics to inform my good self and make what I hope are educated and well intentioned decisions in their area of expertise.. I do not retract my 50000 scientists, like you do , am I not allowed to make it up as I go along for affect?

    I read up on the subject as you do, and presto we all have an opinion. That you are an electrical engineer gives you as much insight into the problem as I being an x rubbish bin man..I will call you next time a fuse blows at my place.

    As for intelligence, the one thing I find in common about people who have a hobby horse to ride is, they give a whole new meaning to the word condescending. I mean I could have called you a gibbering idiot, but no, I used a little humour to get my point across.

    This planet contrary to what you believe is in terminal melt down. Global warming is just the start of what is to come. The Green movement who will try to do something about it, will have its ups and downs but is still in the ascendancy. The people are not buying what you are selling anymore I’m afraid.

    As an aside, you are probably mortified and possibly in a catatonic state your saviour of the human race Mit Romney didn’t get a guernsey just recently ? Never mind another four years and the rancid right wing cracka jacks, will get another chance.Shame really as was looking forward to him speaking in tonges in the White/-Madhouse

    OBTW Peter, at least you recognised the other 2 billion in the world, who are starving to death, a little light on I would have thought, but there you are you thinking about them is a start, so hope springs eternal.

  3. Pete Riddley, as far as I am concerned it is you that is delusional, but that is your prerogative,

    If you seriously believe that pumping billions of tons of pollution into the air of this delicately balanced eco system, while wiping out vast swaths of rainforest for commercial benefit is not going to do any damage to it, then again that is your prerogative, but as far as I am concerned common sense dictates otherwise.

    And WRT “proper reading”, your comments suggest that you are the one that needs to do some proper reading and proper thinking as it appears that you are the one spouting propaganda financed and supported by vested interests.

    I am very happy to take the word of the vast majority of scientific consensus and evidence when it comes to AGW, rather than the ramblings of a handful of reports, for the main, paid for and supported by the aforementioned vested interests, who are more concerned with profits that looking after the planet that we all share.

    If we are wrong, then the worst that will happen is that we tried to improve the planet for our children and forced some clean innovations.

    If we are right, then at least we might have a chance to avert the worst of the consequences.

    If we do nothing as you suggest, and you are wrong (which most believe you are), then God help us and particularly our children!

    I for one am NOT prepared to take that chance.


  4. ‘You have only yourself to blame for others not really knowing what you are. Try using your real name instead of hiding.’

    They know I’m a girlie man …. that will suffice.

  5. ‘If we are wrong, then the worst that will happen is that we tried to improve the planet for our children and forced some clean innovations.’

    Problem is that its expensive, unreliable and visually polluting, but I would support you if there was any proof that CO2 caused CAGW.

  6. Doha Nooze

    ‘After the news conference, and as diplomats gathered for the climate conference president’s assessment of how close countries are to agreement, Monckton quietly slipped into the seat reserved for the delegation of Myanmar and clicked the button to speak.

    “In the 16 years we have been coming to these conferences, there has been no global warming,” Monckton said as confused murmurs filled the hall and then turned into a chorus of boos.’

  7. I work with two electrical engineers and both are proponents of AGW.

    I guess that validates the AGW proposition.

    If we play that silly game and count up all the experts or wanna be experts in the world in any field outside of climate science as an indicator on whether a climate theory is correct or incorrect, then the proponents would still hold sway.

    A problem is there are too many non-qualified in the field of the science being discussed making out as thought they are experts in it, and on the denier side nearly all ideologically driven, blindly following the propaganda and leads of the vested interests or being paid by those same vested interests.

  8. Stop panicking and enjoy the benefits of modern living in a developed country. Think what horrible lives you’d have had in your parents’ homelands only 100 years ago or 2Billion are having now in other parts of the world.

    Then start panicking, because the conservatives’ industrial relations agenda will usher those dark conditions back for Australia.

  9. Yep Rinehart’s and the other big business owner’s in this country dream, $2 per day Australian labour, and Abbott more than willing to accommodate them, whilst trashing the environment at the same time.

    A lose lose at every turn, except for the wealthy of course, but in the end as history has repeatedly shown it will be a lose for them as well.

  10. Mobius,

    I didn’t hear anyone from the Liberal WorkChoices Party distance themselves from Rinehart’s “$2 per day” remarks. Though the remarks were given wide publicity (headlines round the world) and the WorkChoices Party had ample opportunity to denounce them.

  11. So you’ve got morons like el drongo working to further the ’cause’ of:

    * Dirtier air for their grandkids
    * Third World working conditions and standard of living for their grandkids

    The morality of the right-winger – sell out your descendants on a politically-brainwashed fool’s errand.

  12. ‘Dirtier air for their grandkids’

    CO2 is not a pollutant and AGW is delusional.

    ‘Third World working conditions and standard of living for their grandkids’

    We want the best for those who follow. Dragging millions out of poverty requires difficult decisions…..China and India are the ‘biggest polluters’. haha

  13. El gordo only has one name, and that’s el gordo. I’m not interested in knowing her true identity. She could be an alien for all I know. :mrgreen:

  14. El grubo, as you know, we’re talking about Third World working conditions and standard of living for coming generations here in Australia.

  15. PJ wrote “the one thing I find in common about people who have a hobby horse to ride is, they give a whole new meaning to the word condescending.”

    Couldn’t agree more! Condescending whisperers take note!

  16. So, how’s your green energy stock doing?
    “CHICAGO, December 6, 2012 – Is green energy a fad that has run its course? The investment community seems to think so. RENIXX® World, the Renewable Energy Industrial Index of the world’s top green energy companies, hit an all-time low below 146 on November 21, down more than 90 percent from the December 2007 peak….During the heydays of 2007 and 2008, the RENIXX index was on a roll. Former Vice President Al Gore’s book An Inconvenient Truth reached number one on The New York Times best seller list in July, 2006. His documentary movie by the same name became a worldwide hit the same year. In December 2007, Mr. Gore shared the Nobel Peace Prize with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The world was whipped into global warming frenzy….But the subsidy-driven green energy wave soon hit a brick wall of fiscal reality. Spain paid solar operators up to ten times the rate for conventional electricity with a 20-year subsidy guarantee. With a guaranteed annual return of 17 percent, every hombre entered the solar business, making Spain the largest solar cell market in 2008. But the nation’s subsidy obligation soon mounted to $36 billion dollars. In 2009, Spain cut the subsidies and its solar market dropped by 80%.
    In Germany, feed-in tariffs of eight times the market rate resulted in the installation of over one million roof-top solar systems by 2010. But the 20-year guarantee also produced a subsidy obligation of over $140 billion. German electricity rates climbed to the second highest in the world and continue to climb to pay for green energy. To stop the bleeding, Germany cut feed-in subsidies three times in 2011 and announced a complete phase-out by 2017. Spain, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, the United Kingdom, the United States, and other nations cut subsidies for wind, solar, and biofuels during the last three years.
    At the same time, solar manufacturers built huge capacity to meet expected demand for green energy. But with cuts in subsidies, demand crashed and so did solar cell prices. Dozens of companies went bankrupt, such as German companies Solon and Solar Millennium, and US-based Solyndra….The failure of global climate negotiations also drove the RENIXX index down. Investors expected a binding agreement from negotiations, but no pact could be reached at the 2009 Copenhagen, the 2010 Cancun, or the 2011 Durban conferences. The current climate conference in Doha, Qatar is also unlikely to produce a binding agreement.
    It’s interesting to note that a single oil company, Exxon Mobil, has a market capitalization of over $400 billion, or about 40 times the capitalization of the RENIXX index of the world’s top 30 renewable companies. It looks like investors are betting on oil and not green energy”

    Steve Goreham is Executive Director of the Climate Science Coalition of America and author of the new book The Mad, Mad, Mad World of Climatism: Mankind and Climate Change Mania.

  17. So, how’s your green energy stock doing?

    Very nicely thank you. New solar panels to go up this week and yep I’m doing my bit.

    Like the other trolls on here Treeman I’ll give you points for tenacity. Too bad it’s all wasted. Like Ridely you can put up all the links you like, and wax lyrically all day about a subject you have no more insight or knowledge into than anyone else. It will not change the fact you are wrong.

    If it was the conservative side of politics that was supporting the other side of the debate, you would out of blind ideology take an opposing view to the one you hold now.. My view unlike yours is formed, yes and I concede formed by other people’s scientific research, it just so happens we are in by far, the majority.

    It can’t go with out comment. that right wingers who pooh, pooh the science of global warming are all of the same bent. They believe the left is after a one world government, Muslims want a caliphate, the U.N. is spying on us all, the planet can be exploited for ever, and the world is flat.


  18. PJ, how many Kws?

    We got 21/2 Kw with a 3 Kw inverter and solar hot water, just over a year ago and paid around $160.00 for the whole year. We just received our bill for the last quarter, and are $75.00 in credit.

    We also use air con most of spring, summer and winter, due to my lung disease, so we are more than happy.

    Hope yours works out for you.


  19. PJ, how many Kws?

    I ‘m getting 1.6 KW which should be enough. My wife and I are the only two at home now, we don’t use that much. Although we will no doubt use the aircon more with the summers we experience over here in the west. Which are going to get worse as time goes on. Unless you are el gordo and think I may need a heater ha ha.


  20. el dildo, that’s probably the release of the next instalment in the movie franchise.

    Nyaaaaaahahahahaha 😆 😆 😆

    PJ, like you, it is only my wife and I, as the kids are all grown up.

    every bit helps

    Is your inverter upgradeable? cos the panels are getting cheaper all the time.

    We hope to add another two soon, should help us break even or maybe a small amount in credit. Love it!

    Cheers 😀

  21. Yea I’m getting the 3 KW Inverter.Can put on more panels if required.

    Yea my kids are all gone, my eldest is forty two and I’m still keeping the bastard, just joking.

    Solar panels will be on everyones roof one day.


  22. The trouble with Pete….
    …and this
    ” Mr Ridley willingly admitted ( that he spent four hours on the net hunting down my last name along with the names of my wife and children, photos of them and their activities, He also made it clear that he had contacts close to where I live. All of this was presented in a friendly “be more careful” kind of tone and was about as comforting as finding that someone had broken into your house and left a note in your child’s bedroom saying “you should check the kids more often”.

    People will find photos of your kids if there are any out there in newspapers, on Facebook etc. But when someone deliberately searches for them because they are angry and use it to win an argument, that person is demonstrating sociopathic behaviour. I encourage you to report immediately to the administrator if Pete Ridley or anyone else on this blog starts pushing you for more information about yourself or using this to argue with. Don’t fall for the con “I want to understand you to debate you”. Debate with facts and use reason, that’s all that’s needed.”

    LOVO says *scroll* Pete…. I will be from now on….. Bye Pete… keep take’n them med’s……lalalalalala
    … and Bob said this….
    “And what did you hear, my blue-eyed son?
    And what did you hear, my darling young one?
    I heard the sound of a thunder, it roared out a warnin’
    Heard the roar of a wave that could drown the whole world
    Heard one hundred drummers whose hands were a-blazin’
    Heard ten thousand whisperin’ and nobody listenin’”

    ..and Tracy said this…
    Don?t you know, they?re talkin? ’bout a revolution
    It sounds like a whisper
    Don?t you know, they?re talkin? ’bout a revolution
    It sounds like a whisper


  23. ‘Step Forward the Letters Editor of “The Guardian on the Yarra”

    ‘Brilliant attempt at the hyperbole-of-the-year in last Tuesday’s Age. The lead letter – by a certain Russell Downie in prosperous suburban Balwyn – got the leading gig on the Letters Page. You see, Mr Downie of Balwyn is “struck by the parallels between the struggle to abolish slavery and the struggle to confront climate change”. Really.’

    Gerard Henderson (Media Watch Dog)

  24. The good news is that Himalayan Glaciers are almost back to their original ‘mass balance’ thanks to some snowy winters.

  25. The European Alps have also received big snowfalls and the ski resorts will be opening earlier this year, while the Cascades in the western US picked up ‘six feet since Wednesday’.


  26. I love this statement from a climate blog, it is so apt here and describes the denialists so well, a bit of side entertainment and a giggle to those who know what’s really going on.

    Most of the comments made here by Climate Change sceptic-deniers are pure entertainment for those who know what’s really going on.

  27. Mobius, quite a while ago when I asked scientist daughter about the climate change debate her reply was that in her experience (while stating that climate change was not strictly her field of expertise) was that Australia and the bible belt of the US were the only places on earth where the science was still being debated..everyone else has moved on to try to find a solution. The climate skeptics rob valuable time in this regard.

  28. Water vapour is up to 85 percent of the greenhouse effect…

    ‘Clouds might not just be a negative feedback instead of a positive one, they might be a forcing factor themselves, making all the estimates of climate sensitivity incorrect,’ said Tony Cox.

    ‘everyone else has moved on’

    You underestimate our numbers.

  29. Anthony Cox is a lawyer and secretary of The Climate Sceptics. He has a degree in law.

    Wow what an expert in climate. No wonder the dim witted denialists quote deniers like this.

    Epic fail.

  30. He’s a kitchen table scientist.

    That’s beside the point, what he said is important in explaining why global cooling is imminent.

  31. El Gordo, we got ya number……. and its *up* 😉
    “….but several research efforts using satellite imagery suggest both increased snowfall at higher elevations and more storminess and cloud cover in summer, which may reduce melting. If the apparent anomalies result from a warming globe, it suggests more moisture is transported from warmer oceans to the highest mountains. Once there, it either nourishes the glaciers with increased precipitation or protects them from some melting with more frequent cloudiness.”

  32. So el dildo, your idea is to take a genuine interest in the science, by ignoring all the scientists and taking your cues from a lawyer…. good one…. NOT.

    your arguments get more ludicrous by the minute, by that logic when my car packs up I should take it to a baker to get it fixed, or when the house needs re-stumping I should call in a hairdresser. 😆 😆 😆

  33. “should take it to a baker to get it fixed, or when the house needs re-stumping I should call in a hairdresser.”

    My local hairdresser can look at my stump anytime she likes.

  34. Truth Seeker, I know a good dentist who could pull those tree roots out for you. In the event of his unavailability perhaps my postie would be OK to do the job.

    However, I expect that my dentist would be happy for the extra work as he loves making a quid.

  35. I have a cousin who’s a tree stump puller (true) who could do you a root canal whilst the dentist pulls the tree roots.

    I haven’t got any family or friends who are lawyers so sorry I can’t get you a paper on climate change.

  36. Was that a root canal, or a root in a canal? The latter job I will do myself.

    The question is would el gordo get a root in a wood yard ?

    Now that is, taking an interest in the science.

  37. Endodontic therapy Root canal procedure: unhealthy or injured tooth, drilling and cleaning, filing with endofile, … This set of procedures is commonly referred to as a “root canal.

    It’s something tree stump pullers do.

  38. Get el gordo to start talking to the tree stump about her views on climate change. It’ll uproot itself and flee.

  39. umm, El gordo…… Himalayan Glaciers are receding…… whilst the next door neighbour… the Karakoram….. is ‘maybe’ growing……note the RW projection of ‘greater Himalayan of ‘that’ MSM rag 🙄 but hey close enough 🙄
    …. you point to regional stuff, El Gordo, ‘stuff’ that is in the realm of CC, ‘regional’ cooling et al as per AGW….. and I know u k-now what I mean……. Artic melting…. permafrost melting…… glaciers melting ( most of ’em )…… your arguments a cherry picker…,… here’s some ‘cherries’ for you to knaw/gnaw on… know what I mean 😉
    Look like Tony;s ‘chance’ at being Ambassador to Tuvalu are, umm, sinking….. maybe they could send him to the ‘Vatican City State’ instead…… and he’d be perfect for that ‘role’ too……. as in…. came close to being PM (LOTO)….. and there he would be the next best thing to being the Pope… 😆 ( Australian diplomatic equivalant 😉 )
    Mummsie woujd be proud…. almost… after all how many Mums do you know that have raised a “Footnote” …..:lol:

  40. Migs, I’ll make some enquiries…. tomorrow, as my bed is now beckoning.

    I’ll sleep on it, as this in depth discussion has exhausted me……


  41. ” Migs, believe it or not I do have a chiro who moonlights as a butcher for his own venison, and he fixes my back weekly for guitar lessons.’

    Ah another muso I am playing out tomorrow on a bush property just down the road. What’s that got to do with G.W. S.F.A.

  42. ” I get the impression that el dildo would be good at pulling….. stumps!’

    Not as good as Iain Hall or Treeman I’d wager.

  43. PJ, it’s a busy time of year for us musos, last week of lessons, and I am playing at my wife’s Christmas party on Sunday.

    “What’s that got to do with G.W. S.F.A”….
    My chiro culls wild deer on his property, and shares the meat with family and friends, ecologically sustainably.
    My 26 year old Ovation has a lot less wood in it than most guitars, and the only pollution it puts out is an occasional wrong note, sadly the same can’t be said for me. 😳

♬ 😀

  44. ” My 26 year old Ovation has a lot less wood in it than most guitars”

    Nice guitar. Unfortunately my Strat plugs into a 100W Marshall and cranked up it uses the juice no doubt about that. Rock & Roll ain’t noise pollution! Although my lugs have taken a battering over the years I am nearly mutton Jeff from music. I have a case of tinnitus that is becoming unbearable no cure I’m afraid. I gave it away for twenty years, just getting back into it. Trying to learn some stuff long past my use buy date. I am over sixty just learnt TNT I kid you not. My fingers aint what they used to be.

    Still as you would know the music scene doesn’t have many conservatives in it, I have only met one in forty years. Yea I know it’s back to politics again can’t get away from it. Still it is a release for me, it takes my mind off the utter despair I feel for the state of the planet.


  45. There is no need for concern about island states sinking because of an excess of CO2 in the atmosphere….its pie in the sky, but I would rejoice in seeing the Maldives sink.

    ‘Even under the Mandela-like Nasheed, Maldivian life and mores are not all that excellent. The Maldives, an Islamic theocracy, is particularly notorious for its public floggings of women who have extra-marital sex. An out-of-wedlock birth is sufficient evidence, hence floggings normally involve the new mothers. The fathers are more or less exempt. Flogging appears to be prevalent, judging by a local comment that for 140 women flogged, there would be only a couple of men.

    ‘When the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, Navi Pillay, criticized the practice during a visit last year, outraged men picketed the local UN building with posters including “Flog Pillay”, and she got some Islamist death threats. Although there are suggestions that the floggings are largely symbolic, a floggee may well differ.

    ‘Meanwhile female circumcision is in resurgence, according to a January SMH report, despite President Nasheed’s criticisms of extremists. Girls are also being held back from schooling.

    ‘Domestic violence against women is on the rise, while a bill against it has been stalled in Parliament for 14 months. A survey in 2007 found a third of women had been sexually or physically abused.

    ‘Currently 30,000 people (more than a tenth of the population, or close to a fifth of the adults) are reportedly heroin addicts; in 2009 a UN team estimated 40% of youths were users. The official response has been gaol terms running into decades, but rehabilitation is now getting some more emphasis. Youth unemployment is nearly 25% (males) and 50% (females).

    ‘Rising seas? Well, it’s a good earner.’

    Tony Thomas is a retired business and economics journalist

  46. Small world, I have a ’77 Ovation. I call it my ‘electric banjo’. Serial number 077089.

    Had a Coal Board Medical so I could go hunting at the Alpha coal mine site and have a 20% hearing loss in my right ear. The Marshall and the damage done.

  47. PJ, sorry to hear about the tinnitus, it’s a bastard.
    My history is folk and folk rock, although as a teacher I teach everything from Hendrix, to Jethro Tull to Emmy lou Harris.
    I do have a 60 watt Roland acoustic amp, as well as a couple of others from my rock days but rarely use them these days.
    but it’s always in the blood.
    I am getting close to 60 myself, but teaching means that I am still working out new songs all the time…. keeps everything working.

    Cheers 😀

  48. You people will upset el gordo, moving away from man made climate change.

    Saying that, music is a nice change, even from one who is tone deaf.

    Maybe you have songs that fit in with the theme of this thread. .Suspect there is not many, that support the view and opinion of el gordo.

  49. Treeman,

    Excellent comment on
    DECEMBER 7, 2012 @ 10:10 AM
    “So, how’s your green energy stock doing?” …


    Ref. DECEMBER 7, 2012 @ 2:38 PM, do you always insist on pontificating from a position of total ignorance? I started my Catastophic Anthropogenic Climate Change (CACC) research in March 2007 * after being made very worried for the future of my children and grand-children (I’ve gone well past my sell-by date) by a Sunday Times Magazine lead article. That summarised “Six Degrees: Our Future on a Hotter Planet”, a propaganda booklet by environmental activist Mark Lynas.

    Researching the claims made and “evidence” used in that booklet it was clear how Lynas has distorted the facts to suit his own agenda. I tackled him about them on his blog and his response – NIL. I doubt very much if you have bothered to read that booklet or done any research into the issue. None of your comments here contan anything of substance, only environmentalist-style hand-waving. You give the impression of simply being a bag of hot air, but please prove me wrong. Please provide something – ANYTHING – that substantiates your belief that out use of fossil fuels and the consequent release of those essential life-supporting substances H2O and CO2 is causing any noticeable change to the different global climates.

    As for your solar panels, if the Oz scheme is anything like the scheme in the UK you are making a proffit at the expense of your fellow taxpayers. I’ve already given you figures for the relative costs of electrical power generated by fossil fuels, nuclear and renewables yet I don’t recall you responding intelligently to those. Wind and solar have niche value only. Australia, like the USA, the UK, China, RSA and numerous other countries have enough of their own fossil fuels to last for many many decades yet, then there is nuclear.

    Whether you like it or not these and other natural resources will be used to improve our lifestyles, without having any impact upon global climates. Whether or not their use will cause damage to the environment is an entirely different issue which can be readily addressed by properly enforced legislation, which is already in place in developed countries like ours. There are examples all over the UK where environmental impact has been minimised and in some cases land that would otherwise be of no use to humans has been converted in to places that enhance lifestyles for local residents.

    Of course there are those who are driven by self-interest who have scant regard for how their activities affect others but that’s nothing new. It’s up to the rest of us to do our best to stop them abusing the privilege of life on this wonderful planet. We who live in real democracies can do something about it. Others aren’t so lucky.

    * Perhaps you aren’t aware that was around the time that the UN’s IPCC released its Summary for Policy Makers BEFORE the release of the agreed AR4 scientific report which it was supposed to summarise!. The report had to be changed in order to support the political propaganda in the SPM about a fictitious consensus that human CO2 emissions were the main cause of the tidly wee warming – less that 1C! – that had been experienced around the globe since it started coming out of the Little Ice Age. It was warmer than it is now around 1000 years earlier. Michael Mann and his “Hockey team” had to do some very devious statistical manipulations to produce a graph that shows a different story and was plastered all over AR3. It needed two individuals from outside the sphere of influence of the “Hockey Team” (Stephen McIntyre and Ross McKittrick) to expose those manipulations for what they were – have a read of “The Hockey Stick Illusion” by Andrew Montford.

    Boy, that was some rant – and I said I wasn’t coming back here!

    Best regards, Pete Ridley

  50. Well written Pete Ridley.

    Your comments about solar panels in Australia is correct. I’m in process of setting up a business here and have spent the last year researching the PV industry and registering 50 panels for my colleagues in China. My 5kW array has arrived and will hopefully be installed before Christmas.

    “if the Oz scheme is anything like the scheme in the UK you are making a profit at the expense of your fellow taxpayers” puts it mildly.

    For those in Qld lucky enough to be riding the $0.44 per KwH feed in tariff, it’s money for jam. The wholesale price is closer to $.08 which is the current feed in tariff. Blind freddie can see why prices have gone up and it has nothing whatsoever to do with gold plating as Gillard recently put it.

    I know a couple of large homes on the river with big PV arrays installed prior to the 5kW limit who get sizeable cheques each month. The units cost well over $20k two years ago with a thumping Federal govt subsidy in addition to a generous feed in tariff. Sadly the federal subsidies are now a millstone around the necks of those companies holding STC’s which are now worth a fraction of the $40 initially promoted value, for which they will have substantially discounted the units sold.

    The problem is thre is no -one looking to buy STC’s and Gillard quietly closed the scheme down recently. The last time I looked there were over 22 Million STC’s registered. STC’s are monopoly money!

    My arrangements with the manufacturers is that a solar business here in Queensland must stand on it merits rather than depend on any support from government.

    meanwhile at Do ha ha ha:

  51. Truth Seeker. I too am a big fan of Tull but you should be careful about branding those who do not agree with you as thick as a brick, which puts you firmly in the category of Aqualung…”an old man wandering lonely. “

  52. Tree, you amaze me. You call anyone that does not agree stupid or words to that affect. Now you advise others the dangers of doing so,.

  53. I’ve called you naive, perhaps gullible. Never used stupid or anything like the ad homs regularly used by ME, TS, to name the worst offenders!

  54. Now here’s something for alternative energy freaks to think about!

    “It’s a widely held conception that Denmark is one of the world’s least corrupt countries. The message is always warmly received, but this isn’t the same as saying that Denmark is free of corruption.
    I’m not qualified to speak about corruption in general, but there is one area in which I do have an in-depth knowledge: wind power – which is an industry that has managed to thoroughly corrupt the political system.
    The law approving construction of a test centre of large land-based wind turbines near the Jutland town of Østerild was forced through parliament despite warnings about the effects it would have on the natural environment in the area and its impact on residents. The bill was able to make its way through parliament thanks to a complete manipulation of the facts – both by keeping some information under wraps, and by directly misinforming people.
    But it wasn’t parliament that was misled. Members of parliament that voted for the law were fully aware of the truth, yet they turned a blind eye so the law could be passed. It was, in fact, voters who were tricked into thinking that they had been told the whole truth….It’s worth noting that the compensation homeowners living near wind turbines are given to make up for lost property value is based on the falsified noise calculations – which means that people are, in fact, being cheated out of the full amount they are actually owed.

    Corruption is defined as moral decay, and that is precisely what we are witnessing here. The fear that Denmark could lose jobs and the near religious obsession with wind power has made politicians deaf and blind to objections to wind as a source of energy, and led them to take part in the industry’s fraud. The environmental and human impacts of what they are doing appear to have no effect on them”

    There’s a lesson for Australia here: “Those making the most noise about alternative energy are either being led around by the nose of the people whose interests they’re looking out for, or taking part in the misinformation”

  55. Three cheers for the Lord…

    ‘I have been a bad boy. At the U.N. climate conference in Doha, I addressed a plenary session of national negotiating delegates though only accredited as an observer.

    ‘One just couldn’t resist. There they all were, earnestly outbidding each other to demand that the West should keep them in pampered luxury for the rest of their indolent lives, and all on the pretext of preventing global warming that has now become embarrassingly notorious for its long absence.

    ‘No one was allowed to give the alternative – and scientifically correct – viewpoint. The U.N.’s wall of silence was rigidly in place.

    ‘The microphone was just in front of me. All I had to do was press the button. I pressed it. The Chair recognized Myanmar (Burmese for Burma). I was on.’

    Christopher Monckton

  56. T’S 2100. A sci-fi movie version of the future is finally here – flying cars, robots, choking pollution. Oh, and the planet is 5 degrees hotter than it was at the turn of the millennium. It’s nearly 90 years since scientists warned (again) that the planet could warm by between 4 and 6 degrees if we didn’t cut greenhouse gas emissions. We didn’t, and it did.
    The average global temperature, for night and day, is now 19 degrees, up from 14 degrees at the turn of the 20th century.
    The best scientific estimates suggest that the last time it was this hot was during the Eocene, more than 30 million years ago, and long before humans turned up. Back then, temperatures rose gradually over many thousands of years. We’ve watched it happen in 100………………..

    Read more:

  57. Tree troll, I only call it as I see it based on the comments and the abuse that comes with them.

    It’s good to see that you have at least one redeeming feature, a fan of Tull.
    I also play an acoustic version of Aqualung, great song , unlike you though I just responded to a question and said that “Thick as a brick” comes to mind as my fav musical social commentary.

  58. Note to Blogmaster….

    Two tentative titles for that new post…

    What’s up with the weather?


    El Gordo’s Dirty Weather

    Either should pick up increased hits…. just sayin’.

  59. Truth seeker, my guitar hero is Gary Moore sadly passed away just recently. One of the best exponents of the blues on the planet. He starts off one of his songs with the words ” Don’t believe a word the” F*&^%#$ C*&^% tell you” referring to denialists.

    Now to Peter Ridely, Peter do you per chance have two dicks? Because me ol China, nobody could be as silly as you playing with one. So you started your study on (CACC) in 2007 did you? Well bully for you I’m so impressed I’m bubbling all over for you.. I started my research into young girls then women in about 1965, and I have not stopped studying them since, especially the one I’m married to. I have studied Origami extensively and can make excellent paper planes.
    I am currently studying flower arranging, it brings out my feminine side.I have studied the guitar for over thirty years and can play twinkle, twinkle little star with out one bum note.

    You Sir are a prize wanker of the highest order. I will try again, you are no more qualified to speak on global warming than anyone else not so qualified on the planet. A glorified electrician does not a climate scientist make. I suggest you stick with ohms la, and fitting the odd light globe (energy efficient one’s of course).

    You are entitled to an opinion like the rest of us, however, your comments reflect an air of superiority that is as transparent as the best fine crystal.You speak like you are talking only in facts, which is arrant unadulterated bollocks.

    I can with out reservationsay it is the same M.O. of all right wing know alls that visit this blog.

    You can probably tell from my comments I take you seriously?

  60. PJ, mine is Ian Anderson, the founder and heart and soul of Jethro Tull, a musical genius.

    Moore is an excellent guitarist.

    Cheers 😀

    BTW, don’t hold back , say what you really mean. 😆 😆

  61. I’ll do a Treeman.

    Hear! hear! Well written P.J.

    The high horse arrogance of the right always surprises me in its extent.

    el gordo for example.

    Note to blogmaster, take up el gordo’s suggestion and the hits will definitely reduce for that topic.

  62. Weather is politically neutral and everyone has an opinion on it.

    The trick of attracting large numbers to observe requires patience and skill.

  63. El Gordo, you and your ‘one liners’……*look over there*
    “Weather is politically neutral and everyone has an opinion on it”
    Talking aboot weather is somewhat different to talking aboot AGW or GW or CC… jimmy.. IMO… 😀

  64. Following on from the Age link above…..

    ‘Lord Christopher Monckton, leading climate skeptic, challenged an attempt by scientists at the University of East Anglia to predict a temperature increase of 6° C by 2100.

    “It was clear in talking to the author of the UEA paper that he had used only two years of CO2 emissions data,” said Monckton.

    “The UEA criticized us for using only sixteen years of temperature data to show there has been no global warming in that time. This is not science, it’s a sham,” he concluded.’

  65. DOHA, Dec 6 (Reuters Point Carbon) – ‘A plan to drastically curb the supply of carbon offset credits remains on the table going into the final day of two-week U.N. climate negotiations in Qatar.’

  66. DOHA, Dec 6 (Reuters Point Carbon) – ‘Spot permits in New Zealand’s Emissions Trading Scheme fell 12 percent week-on-week to close Thursday at NZ$2.55, fresh record lows as European carbon prices crumbled.’

    We are tied into the European price.

  67. LONDON, Dec 6 (Reuters Point Carbon) – ‘A Swedish energy fund has stopped trading carbon after plunging CO2 allowance prices offset gains made in other markets, a fund manager at the company said on Thursday.’

  68. ‘Dig out your thickest jumpers and turn up the heating: the worst of the winter is about to bite.

    ‘Many parts of Britain face their first significant snow of the winter, with freezing winds, treacherous ice and sub-zero temperatures forecast for much of next week.

    ‘The Met Office has warned that snow will ‘march relentlessly’ down the East coast and by mid-week temperatures there will struggle to rise about freezing – day or night.

    ‘In some parts of the country, the mercury could plunge as low as -16C (3F).
    Forecasters said bitter easterly winds – dubbed ‘the Beast from the East’ – will arrive after a mild weekend in which temperatures could rise to 9C (16F) in the South.’

    Read more:
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  69. Over the past four days two meters of snow has fallen at Mt Baker (Washington State).

    “Our snowbase of 103 inches is the DEEPEST FOR DECEMBER 7th since our World Record Year of 98-99. That means we currently have the deepest early December snowfall in 14 years.”

  70. Keep up the good work el gordo, but I think you’re slacking off a bit.

    Just a quick search and I’ve found dozens and dozens more coldest records, negative Doha and anti-carbon mitigation articles.

    I think you need to try harder and post lots more of these articles so we can be convinced.

    (more hits coming up Migs)

  71. Oh and hits for us as el gordo spends inordinate amounts of time scouring the interwebs for the guff posted that is not read, time that is a reprieve for us and a huge waste for el gordo, their poor choice and no skin off us.

    The reasoning for doing it is also really lame, but again their choice and no skin off us.

  72. Would someone let me know when we’ve had 30 years of “the coldest 8th of December” on record and I’ll rethink my position on AGW.

    Until then I’ll go with the science.

    Currently reading Broecker’s “The Great Ocean Conveyor” which tells me why none of this is surprising.

  73. Another large long term study completed. This one on ocean shellfish and the findings are increased carbon dioxide is responsible for their decline due to the acidification and warming of the oceans.

  74. “‘none of this is surprising’ needs elaboration.”

    Why? You rarely elaborate on anything, just throwing in one nonsense single paragraph post after another.

  75. Study: global warming related sea level rise poses big threat to Washington, D.C.

    Washington Post, 17 January 2012

    Global warming-related sea level rise constitutes a major threat to the nation’s capital, with the potential to inundate national monuments, museums, military bases, and parts of the Metro Rail system during the next several decades and beyond, according to a recent study published in the journal “Risk Analysis.” The study helps localize a problem that is more typically discussed at the global level, and makes clear that public officials must make decisions in the near-term in order to minimize future losses.

  76. So you put out global cooling alarmism with no scientific evidence and again with no credited scientific evidence call global warming alarmist.

    Your constant troll is droll.

  77. Global cooling alarm bells are ringing now, whereas global warming alarmism is taking so long to eventuate that the punters are getting tired of waiting.

    The chaos costs a pretty penny and then there are the old people burning books to stay warm or they will perish.

  78. You once asked if I was losing it, no I think you stated I had lost it.

    I think going on your ever more bizarre and irrelevant posts and trolls you have certainly lost it. Maybe the cold has gotten to your brain, though I have always related madness to heat rather than cold.

  79. China is leading the world in renewable energy technologies and take up, now this.

    China goes cold on coal-fired power

    The idiocy of wasting so much time browsing across the web selectively looking for only those little bits and pieces to post meaningless on paragraph posts is that for each post there are dozens more that explain something to the contrary.

    Posting isolated weather events from selected areas in countries is meaningless in the context of the topic and for each specific event hundreds more that show a different weather event can be posted.

    But if it gets your rocks off searching the web to post cherry picked tiny snippets then I say go for it, keep up the good work.

  80. The Chinese are sitting on top of the largest gas field in the world, so its cheaper than digging up coal in Australia.

    I agree their renewables are getting a reasonable slice of the action.

  81. From above ..” Patience and credence can no longer be given to those denying climate change. The delays that these so-called “skeptics” and vested fossil-fuel interests are causing in the face of convincing detection and attribution only increase the staggering costs of adaptation and relocation” AS Mo said …. your just a time waster…… but hey, keep up the ‘good’ work…..;) p.s. hope your heart is not as cold as your mind-set….. said the patience wearing thin 😦 …. but then again you are the ‘pet’ here…’nough said 😉

  82. Seriously el gordo – these guys aren’t pulling your chain. This monomaniacal obsession is not healthy! SEEK HELP NOW!

  83. Hi P.J. Truth Seeker & Möbius Ecko,

    I’m starting to wonder if you guys are religious nuts. “ .. The disability or disease known as an inferiority complex affects 70% of all believers to a greater or lesser extent, yet hardly anyone admits to having it .. ( Thank goodness I’m agno-sceptic bordering on the atheist.

    Having a serious inferiority complex robs the sufferer of so many of life’s pleasures.

    “Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?” – Matthew 7:4 seems appropriate.

    Hi Cuppa,

    Don’t believe everything that you read in the papers. The pidley-wee rise in sea levels since the warming we have experienced as we came out of the Little Ice Age (allegedly caused by our use of fossil fuels) hasn’t even been noticed never mind catastrophic. Now we into a cooling trend again so we’ll soon have the scaremongers screaming about the land all drying out. You’ll soon be able to walk across to Tasi.

    Hi el Gordo,

    Don’t worry about how to keep warm. There’s plenty fossil fuel to last for many many decades yet.

    Hi Mobi,

    Of course the Chines are pushing ahead with alternatives to coal-powered power stations. Natural gas and nuclear are far superior from the point of view of controlling the emission of pollutants – no no, not those essential life-supporting substances H2O and CO2 without which we would not be around.

    Keep enjoying life.
    Best regards, Pete Ridley

  84. ‘these guys aren’t pulling your chain.’

    No, its a chat room full of individuals immersed in groupthink.

    It must be very comforting for them, but I expected more from you baccy.

  85. Pete Ridley DECEMBER 8, 2012 @ 10:13 AM
    “Have you ever managed to have an intelligent exchange with people like P.J. Lovo, TruthSeeker (who seems unable to distinguish between fact and fiction) Catchup (who seems not to be able to read the title of this thread)?

    It’s not possible because they’re all so indoctrinated with the global warming/climate change/climate disruption.

    “Methinks they’re here simply to create as much of a stir as they possibly can. Empty tin cans and all that!”

    Shades of Grace Jones is the cafe of little consequence…Whispering in the rain!

    Walking down the street,
    Kicking cans,
    Looking at the billboards,
    The also-rans,
    Summing up the people,
    Checking out the race,
    Doing what she’s doing,
    Feeling out of place,

    Whispering, whispering,
    In the rain.

    Feeling like a woman,
    Looking like a man,
    Sounding like a no-no,
    Mating when I can,
    Whistling in the darkness,
    Shining in the night,
    Coming to conclusions,
    Right is night is tight,

    Whispering, whispering,
    In the rain.

    Come in all you jesters,
    Enter all you fools,
    Sit down no-no’s,
    Vulgar fools,
    Trip the light fantastic,
    Dance the swivel hips,
    Coming to conclusions,
    Button up your lips,

  86. Such elitist twaddle, from tree and co,….. so special 🙄 ….and now we have “…serious inferiority complex..” (s) .. Seriously ????? … I for one have taken ‘that’ on board and from now on I am to be known as LOVOLOVO because I’m sooo special that ya haves ta say me monika twice, twice …. 😀
    What say you MigsMigs…. MinMin…. etcetc 😀
    P.S. Oh dear Gaia forgive these poor ‘sinners’ they knowest not what they rort….. om, om, om……. FFS 🙄

  87. Seriously el gordo – when your every waking moment is consumed by the thought of only one subject, that to me indicates a problem. Consider why it is that no matter what the subject, your take on it is flavoured by AGW?

    I’ll bet you almost anything that it would be impossible for you to go a week without “worrying” about your pet subject – that’s not healthy…

  88. ‘Seriously el ‘

    Yeah, its a terrible burden, but being obsessed is not uncommon. Look at the old boys and girls here with only hate on their minds…pathetic and misguided.

    The AGW thingy is all encompassing. At a political level with taxes and green energy, at a higher level of mass delusion and the propaganda machines, but most importantly at a physical level, flagging the precautionary principle, the dislocations of global cooling.

    Of course its all about the satire, my global cooling meme.

  89. El Flat earther …. “The science says…… 🙄 “……we believe that mankind as a whole is once again ready to embrace the truth that has forever been the Flat Earth Society. Using whatever means are deemed necessary and relying heavily on a callous disregard for the lives and well-being of our members, we have slowly but steadily been spreading the news.
    But why? Why do we say the Earth is flat, when the vast majority says otherwise? Because we know the truth.” ….. if you have not already ‘joined’ El G, let me assist you…..

  90. ” Thank goodness I’m agno-sceptic bordering on the atheist, sorry I meant bonkers’

    Inferiority complex !!! Jesus Mary & Joseph If I have’nt heard it all.

    Peter, Peter talking excreta. You really are something else Peter. Not only that in one sentence, Peter says he is an atheist then qoutes from the Bible. Now dig this he reckons it’s us that are nuts.

    Tell me Peter how many pleasures are available to you in the nut house I’m pretty sure you reside in. Let ya out weekends do they? Or is your classification, never to be released ? Just askin.

  91. That would make him a POHMNH….. prisoner of *flem* *flem* Nut House …
    …. putt ting !!!! ….. sorry had to clear the monachist out of me throat, ay 😀

  92. Yea I reckon ol Pete my be a monarchist, I bet he’s dead set wetting himself at the thought of another birth for the long suffering British public to foot the bill for.

    Yea ol Pete he doesn’t play this game real well, a bit contradictory, a bit of cognitive dissonance.I hope he was a better sparky than a spokesman for the lunatic “It ain’t getting warmer brigade” Yea I can just imagine ol Pete as a sparky, and him thinking on a job ” Was that the red wire or the black wire I can’t remember ” SNIP,


    Good on ya Pete.

  93. ….. not a ‘creature’ was stirring, not even a mouse………..
    ………And away they all flew like the down of a thistle……
    *waves* 🙂

  94. ‘The most developed carbon trading scheme is the European Union’s, which has lurched from crisis to crisis. The value of EU Emissions Trading Scheme permits sank to a record low this month under the burden of surplus allowances during a recession.’

    Lewis and Doyle at Reuters

  95. Hello….ello….llo….lo…..o, Hello…ello….llo….lo….o…. , ….. and thus… an example of the El Gordo Effect at work….ork….rk….k….

  96. ‘What was the point of keeping the IPCC draft secret? The point is so the IPCC can control both the content and the PR. The IPCC wants a free kick, and they get one if the world doesn’t see how they arrive at the conclusion, and if critics can’t specifically point to errors or flaws until weeks after the giant press circus has done its megaphone production.

    ‘It’s how the media game works. First they release the “up and coming” scary headline. (Already done for AR5.) Critics can’t criticize what they can’t see.’

    Jo Nova

  97. So far behind the times el gordo and again you fall for it just because it seemed to state what your narrow mind wants it to.

    Do a search and read up el gordo, you love going around cherry picking your bits and pieces and this is one you badly missed. Even some right wing media are calling this for what it is and have given the full context, not the little cherry picked sentence the denialist posing as a researcher used.

    It is about time you opened up your mind or you are going to keep falling for the scammers and shonks and keep looking sillier each time.

  98. NOAA 2012 report finds sea levels rising at less than half the rate claimed by the IPCC

    ‘According to the latest NOAA sea level budget, global sea levels rose at only 1.1 – 1.3 mm/year from 2005-2012, which is less than half of the rate claimed by the IPCC [3.1 mm/yr] and is equivalent to less than 5 inches per century.

    ‘Contrary to alarmist claims, sea level rise decelerated over the 20th century, has also decelerated since 2005, and there is no evidence of any human influence on sea levels.’

    Channelling The Hockey Schtick

  99. In the early eighteenth century ‘stocks in the South Sea Company were traded for 1,000 British pounds (unadjusted for inflation) and then were reduced to nothing by the later half of 1720. A massive amount of money was lost.’

  100. El Gordo..”This is an example of the 5th Estate setting the agenda. Whether there is any substance is debatable” …… and your here because….?????? 🙄

  101. Professor Steve Sherwood, the director of the Climate Change Research Centre at the University of NSW, was the lead author of the chapter in question.

    He says the idea that the chapter he authored confirms a greater role for solar and other cosmic rays in global warming is “ridiculous”.

    “I’m sure you could go and read those paragraphs yourself and the summary of it and see that we conclude exactly the opposite – that this cosmic ray effect that the paragraph is discussing appears to be negligible,” he told PM.

    “What it shows is that we looked at this. We look at everything.

    “The IPCC has a very comprehensive process where we try to look at all the influences on climate and so we looked at this one.”

    Professor Sherwood says research has effectively disproved the idea that sunspots are more responsible for global warming than human activity.

    It seems the denialists, unable to produce any coherent theory or supporting evidence for their fantasies, have resorted (again) to stealing and misrepresentation in an effort to achieve credibility.

  102. ‘research has effectively disproved the idea that sunspots are more responsible for global warming than human activity.’

    Is this the opinion of 97 percent of the world’s atmospheric scientists?

    Another debate has broken out over water vapour, there is no ‘robust trend’ either way.

    This is important for our understanding of the mechanisms involved. The IPCC said originally that the increase in CO2 would create some warming, which in turn will produce more clouds through evaporation and condensation.

    At that point they were not too sure what was going to happen, there are positive and negative feedback mechanisms, but as its turned out there is nothing untoward happening.

    They lost the ‘hot spot’ and there has been no increase in water vapour, so may I suggest to my learned friends here that CO2 has no case to answer.

  103. A leaked document which out of hundreds of pages, you and your ilk have taken one paragraph. Pity they do not have the guts to print the next paragraph as well.

    Then does not the MSM thrive on leaked, or as in the Ashby matter, stolen documents.,

  104. As to the question of whether this IPCC leak has any substance, the denialati assumed that solar forcing had been discussed in the past.

    “But never admitted to by the IPCC. In AR3 and AR4 only considered and dismissed a few possible mechanisms. This is the first time they have acknowledged the evidence that SOME such mechanism seems to be at work, yet all of their conclusions are still based on the assumption that the only solar forcing is TSI,” said Alec Rawls.

  105. From that link…

    ‘The current predicted and observed size makes this the smallest sunspot cycle since Cycle 14 which had a maximum of 64.2 in February of 1906.’

  106. Tom R, wake up… your missing all the cherries 😉 oh well El G, I guess Tom isn’t into fiction, he must have better things to do with his time….. but do ‘carry on’, at least your not ‘out there’ on the streets smashing up telephone boxes (and good luck finding one if you were).

  107. “Australia’s first carbon capture plant will be launched in central Queensland tomorrow.

    The $200 million Callide OxyFuel Project, near Biloela, is a joint venture between the Japanese and Australian governments as well as several industry groups.

    It will be the first carbon capture facility in the world to be retro-fitted onto an existing power station, and the second largest to use the OxyFuel process, which burns coal with pure oxygen as opposed to air which contains around 78 per cent nitrogen.

    The Australian Coal Association says the technology can reduce carbon emissions from coal-fired electricity plants by up to 90 per cent.’

  108. ‘A growing majority of Americans think global warming is occurring, that it will become a serious problem and that the U.S. government should do something about it, a new Associated Press-GfK poll finds.

    ‘Even most people who say they don’t trust scientists on the environment say temperatures are rising.

    ‘The poll found 4 out of every 5 Americans said climate change will be a serious problem for the United States if nothing is done about it.

    ‘That’s up from 73 per cent when the same question was asked in 2009.’

    Read more:
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  109. El Gordo, still trying to to do the ‘religion’ tie in thingy……. yawn… FFS….. you know how we bag ‘projectionists’ out….. 😆 ….. one time around and this is what your doin’ 🙄

  110. The next report from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change isn’t due until the end of next year. The fifth Assessment Report (AR5) is currently in review and not yet in its final form. But the review process is open, and anyone can sign up to be a reviewer, provided they agree to keep the documents confidential. Someone who doesn’t believe the conclusions of most climate scientists has done just that—and then turned around and leaked the report. In the process, he’s demonstrated a severe lack of scientific reasoning.

    Some people really are filth

  111. Tom R @ 1:47 pm

    That’s been canvassed Tom, read back. Of course el gordo jumped on it like he did the UK Met scam, taking what the fake reviewer stated as proof the IPCC is crook.

    One huge problem. Out of hundreds of pages of the report that confirmed AGW one sentence was taken out of context by the faker and used to infer the IPCC had stated something it had not.

    One out of context sentence out of thousands in context and the deniers go into a frenzy as is their norm.

  112. ‘A 1997 U.S. National Academy of Sciences study concluded that variations in total solar irradiance (TSI) were the most likely cause of significant climate change …’

    Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) is becoming a talking point.

  113. So what you are saying is that our star has no effect on our weather and climate?

    You’ll have to point to where you get that reference from grodo

    Although, I guess, like the other thread, you’ll be unable to so.

  114. All I’m sayin’ is that the debate is about TSI and now the discovery of the ‘missing link’.

    Source: Journal of Atmospheric and Solar-Terrestrial Physics

    ‘Using thermometer air temperature records for the period 1850 to 2010, we present empirical evidence for a direct relationship between total solar irradiance (TSI) and the Equator-to-Pole (Arctic) surface temperature gradient (EPTG). Modulation of the EPTG by TSI is also shown to exist, in variable ways, for each of the four seasons.

    ‘Interpretation of the positive relationship between the TSI and EPTG indices suggests that solar-forced changes in the EPTG may represent a hemispheric-scale relaxation response of the system to a reduced Equator-to-Pole temperature gradient, which occurs in response to an increasing gradient of incoming solar insolation.

    ‘Physical bases for the TSI-EPTG relationship are discussed with respect to their connections with large-scale climate dynamics, especially a critical relationship with the total meridional poleward energy transport.

    ‘Overall, evidence suggests that a net increase in the TSI, or in the projected solar insolation gradient which reflects any net increase in solar radiation, has caused an increase in both oceanic and atmospheric heat transport to the Arctic in the warm period since the 1970s, resulting in a reduced temperature gradient between the Equator and the Arctic.

    ‘We suggest that this new interpretative framework, which involves the extrinsic modulation of the total meridional energy flux beyond the implicit assumptions of the Bjerknes Compensation rule, may lead to a better understanding of how global and regional climate has varied through the Holocene and even the Quaternary (the most recent 2.6 million years of Earth’s history).

    ‘Similarly, a reassessment is now required of the underlying mechanisms that may have governed the equable climate dynamics of the Eocene (35 to 55 million years ago) and late Cretaceous (65 to 100 million years ago), both of which were warm geological epochs.

    ‘This newly discovered relationship between TSI and the EPTG represents the “missing link” that was implicit in the empirical relationship that Soon (2009) recently demonstrated to exist between multi-decadal TSI and Arctic and North Atlantic climatic change.’

  115. Where did I say that el gordo. Stop putting text into my posts I never typed.

    My point was, and which has been made in rightly repuditating the faker, is that he took one sentence out of context and made an inaccurate attribution to the IPCC on that out of context sentence from thousands of in context sentences that were in the yet to be released report that elucidated the IPCC’s true position.

    In other words it was yet another denier scam.

  116. All I’m sayin’ is that the debate is about TSI and now the discovery of the ‘missing link’.

    You can say what you want grodo, I’ll stick with the scientists who have already taken all of this into account

  117. Since when has it been about the science with you el gordo?

    If it were you wouldn’t be continously quoting discredited non-scientists, many who are paid by vested interest groups with ties to hard right wing as proof of your flawed contentions.

  118. Hmmm – that’s very naughty of you el gordo. The full sentence says:

    A 1997 U.S. National Academy of Sciences study concluded that variations in total solar irradiance (TSI) were the most likely cause of significant climate change in the pre-industrial era, before significant human-generated carbon dioxide was put into the atmosphere

    You wouldn’t be intentionally misleading your readers el gordo? – surely not 😯

  119. And as for your meme that the IPCC ignores solar effect on climate change – why do deniers need to make up bull$#!t to make their point? Is it because without lies they got nothin’? 😉

  120. “You wouldn’t be intentionally misleading your readers el gordo? – surely no”

    Would have to say, she/he would do, as this has been pointed out previously.

  121. ‘Many empirical relationships have been reported between GCR or cosmogenic isotope archives and some aspects of the climate system (e.g., Bond et al., 2001; Dengel et al., 2009; Ram and Stolz, 1999). The forcing from changes in total solar irradiance alone does not seem to account for these observations, implying the existence of an amplifying mechanism such as the hypothesized GCR-cloud link.’

  122. ABC NEWS 24

    It appears the price of renewals are coming down quickly, while the cost of coal and gas is rising. This would be raising concerns for those in the coal and gas industry.

    If this is the so it is no longer the case that we cannot afford to move on to renewals.

    So it appears that putting in place renewals makes economic sense. This is true whether one believes in made made climate change or not.

  123. This is an old graph which proves the model predictions are badly flawed… ten years on and real temperatures are now below the lowest estimate.

    This serious miscalculation has been costly.

  124. Would it be too much to ask if just for once you gave a link to the source of a picture of a graph you post?

    No context no nothing, just your usual emphatic statement of your supposed fact that will probably turn out to be wrong again.

    There’s one link I found in looking for the source of that graph, and it shoots down your solar contention on the leak from the IPCC report by the faker.

    Keep looking for the source of the graph I guess but I know one thing already, the global temperature is still rising. Thanks for confirming that for us.

    Which way is the global temperature trending in that graph el gordo?

  125. Oh my fucking god. Found the link and I was right it’s not what el gordo was attempting to contend at all, in fact el gordo was attempting to deliberately mislead.

    Here is a link with no context to the very next graph in the article, and as you can see it tells an entirely different story. If you read the full piece you will understand what the article is about and why el gordo is being disingenuous in the extreme.

    I’ll give the source in the next post. Good discussion on the rights and wrong in the conclusions from the data in the responses. Worth the read.

  126. Actually. here’s the latest

    Solar Cycle model fails

    Jan-Erik Solheim, Kjell Stordahl and Ole Humlum have recently published two papers supporting the myth that the sun is behind the recent climate changes. They make a model based on variations in the lengths of the solar cycles. The model predicts that we are now in a decade with sharply falling temperatures.

    However, as will be shown in this post, the model fails to keep up with the recent global warming. Temperatures fitted well with the model until the mid-1970s, but not later. It is therefore extremely unlikely that the prediction about sharply falling temperatures in this decade will be right.

  127. Guest post by Dr. Tim Ball at WUWT

    ‘A common fallback position when losing an argument is to assault your adversary personally. Known as ad hominem, it involves “attacking an opponent’s motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain.”

    ‘In climate science, those who employ this rhetorical tactic attack individuals who ask probing scientific questions. The attacks indicate that they know how inadequate their science is. It often works because of a deliberate campaign to exploit basic sensitivities: fear the sky is falling, guilt about not protecting the environment, guilt about the damage already done, fear and embarrassment of showing ignorance.’

  128. ‘We find for the Norwegian local stations investigated that 25–56% of the temperature increase the last 150 years may be attributed to the Sun. For 3 North Atlantic stations we get 63–72% solar contribution. This points to the Atlantic currents as reinforcing a solar signal.’

    Solheim et al

  129. ‘DRAWING comparisons to pedophiles to attack your opponents is acceptable under the ABC complaints process – held up as the ideal model by media inquiry head Ray Finkelstein – but has been ruled out of order by the newspapers’ existing regulatory body.

    ‘Mr Finkelstein recommended in his government-commissioned review of the media industry earlier this year that the self-regulatory Australian Press Council should be overhauled in line with the ABC model.’

    Nick Leys in the Oz

  130. ‘THE federal Coalition yesterday revealed it would back a proposed crackdown on noise from wind farms.

    ‘In a surprise development, the opposition’s energy spokesman Ian Macfarlane confirmed broad support for a bill introduced by independent senator Nick Xenophon and Democratic Labor Party counterpart John Madigan that would stop wind farms that exceeded normal background noise by more than 10 decibels.’

    Annabel Hepworth in the Oz

  131. The Coalition / Old Media make more noise than all the wind farms combined. In fact, you could say, it’s a right wing noise machine. All Spin, No Substance.

  132. lol, the opposition are now truly ’tilting at windmills’

    I see above, ME proved grodo was lying again, so grodo decided to go straight to wtfuwt., where all good bullshitters lurk.

    Has he conceded that his science is correct yet grodo? 😆

  133. el gordo, I believe dealing with the noise from the wind farms will not take rocket science to solve, as they are out in the countryside, not in the suburbs,

    Also it is another inconvenient fact. The cost of renewals is dropping quicker than expected. The price of coal and gases rising more that expectected.

    It is no longer a fact that we cannot afford renewals.

  134. el gordo has lost all credibility with me, especially with the insistence of posting pictures of graphs without explanation or the context in which they were presented in the original article or paper. That is being deliberately disingenuous.

    Then the constant posting of local cold weather events that is done to confabulate and increase el gordo’s post count. Just scatter gun in lots of piddling bits of guff and do it often, especially when a previous point made has been proven to be bullshit. In other words diversions.

    el gordo doesn’t really want to debate global climate and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were not all that interested in it. el gordo just wants to be contrary and provoke responses, and that’s not just in the climate change debate.

    So I’ve come to the conclusion that having a discussion with el gordo is a waste of time so el gordo can have this thread.

  135. So I’ve come to the conclusion that having a discussion with el gordo is a waste of time so el gordo can have this thread.

    Already 😯

  136. ME

    I gave up ages ago as well. I was always taught that the trees of the world were the umbrella of the planet to assist reflect heat and absorb cold, yet humanity continues to clear the planet at an astonishing rate thereby removing that natural barrier to temperature extremities. It is so obvious in our cities that have high winds and hot temperatures due to all the tar and cement and lack of trees. But apparently humanity has no responsibility for climate change, so I give up. My own observations and experiences say otherwsie let alone scientists. There are none so blind as those who will not see. You can comment about this el gordo but dont expect a response I refuse to dabte this issue with some who has a mind as closed as that of Christopher Monkton.

  137. It’s best that no one ‘engages’ with el drongo. Just poke fun at them for the brainwashed RWF they are.

  138. Just poke fun at them for the brainwashed RWF they are.

    Hey, there’s a thought 😉

    Mind you, ‘fish in a barrel’ springs to mind 😯

  139. On the science of the climate change debate, I trust the scientists and their observations. El gordo would argue that there is no problem, so let’s all sit on our hands and do nothing yet as Shane has observed and correctly, our planet is facing major challenges. This may or may not have anything to do with climate change but the result for the sceptics would be the same..sit and do nothing.

  140. ‘sit and do nothing.’

    That is pretty much the view of sceptics and the denialati, because nothing unusual is happening with our climate.

  141. Sceptics are not denialists but scientists.
    Denialists show time and again that, rather than “scepticism” they are gullible fools, demonstrated as they eagerly embrace any “argument ” which purports to show that AGW is not a problem, does not exist, was not caused by humanity, (or our emissions), or even if it exists, is nothing to worry about, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and studiously ignoring the internal contradictions of their faith.

    The conservative denial of reality can only end in one way, as reality always prevails.

    That the extreme right have been so stupid as to attempt to politicise reality condemns them to irrelevance in any rational discussion.

    That they pose a threat to civilisation, and perhaps humanity, through their FUD is indisputable, and deservedly condemns them to ostracism, contempt, and perhaps sanction as the scale of disasters increases in a warming world.

  142. ‘…and perhaps sanction as the scale of disasters increases in a warming world.’

    Agreed, as long as the same holds for the klimatariat if cooling continues.

  143. Dr. Judith Curry on the AR5 Draft leak:

    ‘The leak of the SOD was a good thing; the IPCC still has the opportunity to do a much better job, and the wider discussion in the blogosphere and even the mainstream media places pressure on the IPCC authors to consider these issues; they can’t sweep them under the rug as in previous reports.’

    Full story here

    Channelling Watts

  144. Anyone who channels Watts is a moron.

    Watts is a creationist. While not all deniers are creationists, most creationists are deniers.

  145. ‘Two weeks ago, it was all over the news. The ocean near Perth (where I live) was rising at the terrifying rate of 9-10mm per year since 1993, which was, shockingly, “three times the global average”. (Since Perth is flatter than flat, at this rate, in a few years everything bar Kings Park and a few sky-scrapers would be washed away).

    ‘The myth started because a government department that knows a lot about our roads, trains, and buses wrote a dot point in a Fact Sheet. That was the State of Australian Cities report, and a pollie (Albanese) raved. Then the West Australian newspaper headlined it, and it all got out of hand.’

    Jo Nova

  146. I’ll put up these two pars as a refresher…. obviously you haven’t been concentrating.

    ‘A common fallback position when losing an argument is to assault your adversary personally. Known as ad hominem, it involves “attacking an opponent’s motives or character rather than the policy or position they maintain.”

    ‘In climate science, those who employ this rhetorical tactic attack individuals who ask probing scientific questions. The attacks indicate that they know how inadequate their science is. It often works because of a deliberate campaign to exploit basic sensitivities: fear the sky is falling, guilt about not protecting the environment, guilt about the damage already done, fear and embarrassment of showing ignorance.’

    Dr Tim Ball

  147. The green zealots hate the shale gas revolution….. energy prices are tipped to remain high (even with cheap gas) because of renewables.

    ‘It is hilarious how the shale gas revolution has pulled the rug from beneath all that green ideology which has been driving government policy to the point where we seem doomed to watch our energy bills soar through the roof – that is, if we can see at all after our lights have gone out.’

    Christopher Booker in the UK Tele

  148. Correction: its climate.

    ‘Russia is enduring its harshest winter in over 70 years, with temperatures plunging as low as -50 degrees Celsius. Dozens of people have already died, and almost 150 have been hospitalized.

    ‘The country has not witnessed such a long cold spell since 1938, meteorologists said, with temperatures 10 to 15 degrees lower than the seasonal norm all over Russia.’

  149. The Fairfax media has finally caught up with the UK Met office ‘warmest year on record’ meme.

    ‘NEXT year is expected to be the hottest, or at least one of the hottest, ever recorded, the British Meteorological Office says.

    ‘The office predicts next year will be 0.43 degrees to 0.71 degrees warmer globally than the average temperature between 1961 and 1990, with a ”best fit” of 0.57 degrees warmer. If the best fit prediction holds true, that would make next year the hottest year since instrumental records began.’

    Read more:

  150. So you got in before me Min.

    While yer there, give some thought to Hughes, you may wish to discuss it over Xmas lunch.

    – 61°F in Siberia…Gee, Now I’m Really Worried About The Permafrost Melting!

    According to the long term forecast for NE Iceland the temperature could reach -45°C in Mývatnssveit on 28 December and -41°C the day before. That would be a new record low temperature for Iceland. The current record is -37°C.

    2. GLOBAL WARMING bullshit to warm the heart of the cafe of no consequence alarmist…

    Global Warming Claimed to Increase Asteroid Risk
    “Now that all reputable scientists agree that global warming is the greatest threat to face mankind since the secretly-thwarted alien invasion of 1955, it seemed that just the warming alone was enough to strike terror in the hearts of Earth’s imperiled inhabitants. But this new connection between global warming and the asteroid threat makes immediate action to avoid planetary collision just as important as avoiding planetary meltdown. ”

    Can Earth explode as a result of Global Warming?
    Abstract: The heat generated inside our planet is predominantly of radionic (nuclear) origin. Hence, Earth in its entirety can be considered a slow nuclear reactor with its solid ”inner core” providing a major contribution to the total energy output. Since radionic heat is generated in the entire volume and cooling can only occur at the surface, the highest temperature inside Earth occurs at the center of the inner core. Overheating the center of the inner core reactor due to the so-called greenhouse effect on the surface of Earth may cause a meltdown condition, an enrichment of nuclear fuel and a gigantic atomic explosion.

    Click to access core.pdf

  152. You guys confuse weather with climate. it’s winter over there, so OF COURSE it’s gonna be cold! And of course the permafrost won’t melt in winter…. TRUST ME, if it DID, we would be in deep deep shit…!

    What really concerns me is hoe fast and how much the ice caps melted last summer. THAT isn’t weather, because it’s getting worse and worse every summer. It’s a trend. And on top of that it’s also a positive feedback because less and less ice means less and less solar energy is reflected back to space and more and more is absorbed by the darker oceans which causes….. MELTING OF THE PERMAFROST!

  153. We don’t confuse weather and climate, they are one and the same if you can find a trend.

    The big floods in the UK at the moment is typically what we would expect with regional cooling.

  154. ‘What really concerns me is hoe fast and how much the ice caps melted last summer.’

    There was a lot made of that in the msm, but they failed to acknowledge the speed at which it refroze and the extent…. record breaking.

  155. mikestasse wrote…
    “You guys confuse weather with climate. it’s winter over there, so OF COURSE it’s gonna be cold! And of course the permafrost won’t melt in winter…. TRUST ME, if it DID, we would be in deep deep shit…!”

    It’s you who is confusing weather and climate and you failed to see that “Gee I’m so worried about the permafrost melting” was tongue in cheek!

    Your point about how much the ice caps melted last summer not being weather related is baseless. For starters the Ice caps did not melt to any greater degree, it was the sea ice that recorded a record minimum and that my friend was directly related to unseasonal high wind rather than record high temps which really is about weather.
    Secondly the “record melt” of Greenland Ice cap was something that happens regularly every 150 years or so. Furthermore it was a brief event that lasted just a few days.

    Looks like that event was weather related as well…

    Now for the methane clathrates bogeyman…the growth in atmospheric concentrations (methane) has slowed substantially. As noted by the IPCC AR4WG1 (p. 796):

    Furthermore, Grachev and Severinghaus in 2005 concluded that “wetlands were the likely main driver of the [methane] increase and that clathrates did not play a large role,” a finding they noted “is in agreement with findings from previous ice core CH4 isotopic studies” (Petrenko et al. 2009: 508).
    This study essentially reiterated the results of another paper by many of the same researchers that appeared in Nature the previous year (Fischer et al. 2008). Notably the Petrenko et al. study’s publication was accompanied by an announcement titled, “Ancient Greenland methane study good news for planet, says CU-Boulder scientist” (Eureka Alert 2009).

  156. In eastern Siberia temperatures are down to -50 C.

    This has been happening for weeks and quite frankly they are sick of it and its only December.

  157. “It was a compelling message. Convert and enjoy everlasting life in the hereafter. The advantage the missionaries had was that the religion they taught had no hypotheses that could be tested. Death – “the undiscovered country from whose bourn no traveller returns” – meant that the afterlife could be neither proved nor disproved. Faith was the only thing needed.

    Climate science is a bit like that – push the rewards and the catastrophes far enough into the future, and have faith that the prophecies will come true. However, unlike heaven, which we may reach at any time, climate prophecies need to be distant enough to make them hard to challenge yet sufficiently close to generate urgent action.”

  158. “New research suggests that West Antarctica has warmed much more than scientists have thought over the last half century, an ominous finding given that the huge ice sheet there may be vulnerable to long-term collapse, with potentially drastic effects on sea level.

    A paper released Sunday by the journal Nature Geoscience found that the temperature at a research station in the middle of West Antarctica has warmed by 4.4 degrees Fahrenheit since 1958. That is roughly twice as much as scientists previously thought and three times the overall rate of global warming, making central West Antarctica one of the fastest-warming regions on earth.”

  159. El Gordo….. you can’t be serious. temperatures in Siberia drop to -80….. so -50 is just balmy winter weather for them.
    And ice caps are ice caps. I don’t care if they’re floating or not, they’re melting. Yes, there was unseasonally high winds, almost tropical cyclone type weather (without the tropical heat of course), but WHY are these storms happening now? It’s WARMER! And when the ice caps ( of the floating type) come back in winter, they are thinner and thinner every year which is a major factor for why the melt gets worse and worse as well. predictions are there will be NO SUMMER ICE at the pole within five years………

  160. ‘predictions are there will be NO SUMMER ICE at the pole within five years………’

    If those predictions are based on models, then you have already done your dough.

  161. Who needs a model when you know there are x km3 of ice, disappearing at y km3 a year…… divide x by y and you get three years or less………! it’s not rocket science…

  162. Sue,

    Isn’t it amazing…They take “old data” and manipulate it a bit and suddenly we are melting? One can always find a way to make data fit one’s “agenda”…gotta keep that government funding coming…Especially since it is starting to “dry up”…

  163. Your as funny as f*ck Sparta, especially your bit of projection…”…One can always find a way to make data fit one’s “agenda”…” ….. merry xmas you ‘funny’ bugger…. 😆 😆 😆 ….. you should have your own show….. no… really.. you should 😀

  164. Projection is important…. to check the validity of a theory. Some of you may not want to recognise that global warming is a thing of the past.

  165. @eg,

    Some of you may not want to recognise that global warming is a thing of the past.

    Given the efforts of the denialist trolls to date, it becomes increasingly unlikely that even future generations will not be able to

    recognise that global warming is a thing of the past.

    I strongly doubt that future generations will look kindly on the idiocy of denial , nor its apostles.

  166. ‘I strongly doubt that future generations will look kindly on the idiocy of denial , nor its apostles.’

    Future generations will laff at the folly of the ‘precautionary principle’.

  167. el gordo you better hope you are right on that one. If you are wrong, they will not look back as we do with the flat earthers of the past in a bemused way.

    It will be with anger, that one could be so stupid to ignore the advice of the majority of experts advice developed over close to century.

    For their sakes, I hope you are right.

    It did not matter the flat earthers were wrong. There was no harmful consequences. Not so with man made global warming.

  168. CU we are correct, there is nothing unusual happening with climate.

    The exact end of the Holocene is unpredictable, but when we look back at the final stages of the previous interglacial we appear to have reached a tipping point.

  169. ‘West Antarctica is warming almost twice as fast as previously believed, a new study shows, heightening fears of a catastrophic thaw that raise water levels from San Francisco to Shanghai.

    ‘Annual average temperatures at the Byrd research station there have risen 2.4C (4.3F) since the Fifties, it said, one of the fastest gains on the planet and three times the global average.

    ‘West Antarctica holds enough ice to raise world sea levels by at least 3.3m (11ft) if it ever all melted.’

    Read more:
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  170. Pterosaur1:

    I strongly doubt that future generations will look kindly on the idiocy of denial , nor its apostles.

    I’m sure they will be looked back on with contempt. I mean, they’re held in low enough regard already, now. And it’s only going to get worse for them. As the decades go by, and the cumulative effect of atmospheric pollution plays worsening havoc with the climate and people’s lives, the denialists of circa 2013 will be judged by history as credulous fools, servants of the big polluting resource billionaires, and the treacherous morons who sold out future generations’ right to clean air to breathe.

    Not that the halfwits concerned will give a damn, of course. They’re too brainwashed by the propaganda, and go at it with a zeal for self-harming, so-called “conservative” politics. Morons.

  171. Alaska Weather Summary – November 2012

    ‘Throughout much of November, colder than normal temperatures settled in across most of Alaska. The majority of the month was below normal …. Barrow recorded 14.8 inches of snowfall or 160 percent above normal.

    ‘Ketchikan started the month off with a new record low of 21 degrees Fahrenheit, breaking the old record of 24 degrees from 1984. Valdez set a new low temperature of 7 degrees on November 2, which was three degrees colder than the previous record set in 2011.

    ‘On the 24th, Cold Bay tied the record low temperature set in 1976 of 16 degrees Fahrenheit. Tok’s low of minus 50 degrees Fahrenheit on the 29th broke the 1963 record low of minus 46 degrees. Finally, on November 9 in King Salmon, the record high temperature of 50 degrees, originally set in 1993, was tied…..’

  172. El Gordo….. one gets the feeling that you love your job….i:e. sowing seeds of doubt….. umm, good try @ 5.28 ….. I was waiting with baited breath for your next ‘try it on ‘ …… but silly me thought you were going to try on the East build-up doovey 😀 ….. guess the science on that got in your way …… and lets not forget its winter in the ‘good ‘ole’ UsA…. and you say .. “By the end of the year 75% of the continental US is expecting snow cover.” ….. WHAT at Xmas time…… snow in America…. at this time of year……. pull the other one it plays ‘topical’… 😆

  173. Ok, I’ll be D.Dix….. ” Where does snowrise come from?” ….. and I thanks ya for your Q:- …. but I will have to take that on notice and pass that on to ‘our’ ‘cooling’ exth-spurt … over to you El Gordo …. oh Guffaw…

  174. @ Cuppa

    the denialists of circa 2013 will be judged by history as credulous fools, servants of the big polluting resource billionaires, and the treacherous morons who sold out future generations’ right to clean air to breathe

    Not only by history 😈

    They also pose existential threats to our civilisation, if not to humanity and the ecological services upon which we all rely

    Funnily enough, eg seems to be still amazed that the Northern Hemisphere gets cold in winter 😆

  175. “You appear to be unaware of reality…regional cooling has already begun.”

    Dunno where YOU live…… but here in Australia, we’ve got all your heat….. and you’ve stolen all our precipitation with all that snow, it’s the driest in this region in living memory. And hot. 95+ for 3 1’2 weeks non stop, 2 to 10 degrees above average, and 1 1/2 inches of rain in 6 months.

    I also did some research on your plateauing CH4 atmospheric concentration. Looks like you were looking at 5 year old data, because I tuend up this:

    YES, the modern Holocene is over alright…….. it’s turning into the modern Triassic!

  176. Russian permafrost expert Michali Grigoryev…

    No, you are wrong. The permafrost is not melting. There is no man-made climate change.”…

    Indeed above at the surface it has gotten warmer, but that’s just part of a normal cycle. The permafrost is rock hard, And that is how it is going to stay. There’s no talk of thawing.”…

    The cyclic warming is coming to an end. It is going to get colder soon. The climate depends on the sun and the oceans. Three factors have coincided and have warmed the climate, but in 8 to 15 years, it’s going to be colder again.”…

  177. There will come a time when Climate Change becomes so bleeding obvious, the angry mobs will be baying for the denialists blood…… I predict Nuremberg type trials for all the morons who continually block any and all attempts to do something about AGW to rid ourselves of the climate fascists……

  178. ‘I predict Nuremberg type trials for all the morons …’

    Your projection is flawed, like the climate models.

    We will be kinder to the Klimatariat, but they will never live down the humiliation of putting their faith in models.

  179. I have great faith in models. ALL those I’ve used have shown more than a modicum of accuracy. I do thermal analyses of houses for a living of sorts. i input all the data about a building envelope, and the model predicts how hot the house will be in six different zones. Not as complex as a climate model by a long shot, but a vey useful tool for designing the sorts of zero energy houses I like to design…..

    The Climate models predict TRENDS…. and so far, those trends have been far too conservative, everything’s getting WORSE than predicted and a lot faster at that. I think you are way out of your depth EG….

  180. Climate models can be useful tools when natural variables are added to the mix. Real world observation suggests your faith in gorebull worming is misguided.

    The First Decade of the New Century: A Cooling Trend for Most of Alaska

    G. Wendler*, L. Chen and B. Moore

    Alaska Climate Research Center, Geophysical Institute, University of Alaska, Fairbanks, AK 99775, USA

    ‘Abstract: During the first decade of the 21st century most of Alaska experienced a cooling shift, modifying the long-term warming trend, which has been about twice the global change up to this time. All of Alaska cooled with the exception of Northern Regions.

    ‘This trend was caused by a change in sign of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO), which became dominantly negative, weakening the Aleutian Low. This weakening results in less relatively warm air being advected from the Northern Pacific. This transport is especially important in winter when the solar radiation is weak.

    ‘It is during this period that the strongest cooling was observed. In addition, the cooling was especially pronounced in Western Alaska, closest to the area of the center of the Aleutian Low.

    ‘The changes seen in the reanalyzed data were confirmed from surface observations, both in the decrease of the North-South atmospheric pressure gradient, as well as the decrease in the mean wind speeds for stations located in the Bering Sea area.’

  181. ‘New climate modelling and analysis by the CSIRO and the Bureau of the Meteorology was carried out for the report using the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change’s scenarios on future global greenhouse gas emissions.’

    Massive fail, the Klimatariat will need to be purged.

  182. Climate anger dangerous, says German physicist

    The Australian, 16 July 2011

    Anger against scientists involved in the climate debate is reaching dangerous levels and it’s only a matter of time before one is murdered, says leading German physicist Hans Schellnhuber.

    Professor Schellnhuber, the director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research and an Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change member, said he was amazed by the intensity of the political uproar in Australia over a relatively soft carbon-pricing policy.

    While he was opening a recent climate conference in Melbourne, a man in the front row waved a noose at him. “I was confronted with a death threat when I gave my public lecture,” Professor Schellnhuber said.

    “Somebody got to his feet and showed me a rope with a noose.

    “He showed me this hangman’s rope and he said: ‘Mr Schellnhuber, welcome to Australia’.”

  183. Cuppa that was 2011, La Nina keeps temps down in south east Oz.

    Temperature trend worldwide is actually flat lining.

  184. Regional Cooling in Siberia

    ‘A bitter cold spell in Russia has claimed 123 lives in the past 10 days, an official says, with the unseasonably early freeze testing authorities in a country used to notoriously tough winters.

    ‘Temperatures have plunged to around minus 30 degrees Celsius in the Moscow region and minus 60 degrees in Eastern Siberia, as part of a winter being described by local media as the coldest in 70 years.

    “Since the start of the cold, 123 people have died of exposure and frostbite,” a medical source was quoted by the Interfax news agency as saying.’

    Read more:


    Professor Schellnhuber, the director of the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research and an Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change member, said he was amazed by the intensity of the political uproar in Australia over a relatively soft carbon-pricing policy.

    It’s only to be expected that the good Professor would be taken aback. Consider his situation. He’s from Germany, a first-world economy, pluralistic media landscape, hate media forbidden by law, a respected, impartial national public broadcaster.

    He comes to Australia and sees a country, that on the surface, is much like his own: First-world economy, living standards among the highest on earth. But the big difference is the media landscape. Australia’s is more befitting a tinpot dictatorship. All the major outlets are huddled together at the extreme RW end of the political spectrum. The national broadcaster pumps out anti-progressive propaganda virtually hourly. And there are radio talkers in the biggest city saying they want to drown the PM in a chaff bag “over a relatively soft carbon-pricing policy”.

    In what other metropolitan centre or country in the world would you find wingnuts using the public airwaves to muse aloud about assassinating the head of government?

    Even in the shittiest war-torn tinpot banana republics I don’t think this sort of media behaviour would be tolerated.

    Australia – arguably the worst media on the planet. (The key to Liberal electoral buoyancy).

  186. OMG! It’s cold in Alaska and Siberia this time of year.

    Who would have thunk? 😯

    BTW, el gordo, have you ever thought of keeping an eye on our weather? 🙄

  187. Increasing CO2 wrecks the climate system and feedback loops kick in, so the weather becomes chaotic, with unusual extremes becoming increasingly more frequent. Melting of Arctic ice has wrecked the jet stream, so its oscillations are amplified.

    Anybody remember this ancient paper by Donella Meadows ?

    A positive feedback loop is self-reinforcing. The more it works, the more it gains power to work some more.

    The more people catch the flu, the more they infect other people. The more babies are born, the more people grow up to have babies. The more money you have in the bank, the more interest you earn, the more money you have in the bank. The more the soil erodes, the less vegetation it can support, the fewer roots and leaves to soften rain and runoff, the more soil erodes. The more high-energy neutrons in the critical mass, the more they knock into nuclei and generate more.

    Positive feedback loops drive growth, explosion, erosion, and collapse in systems. A system with an unchecked positive loop ultimately will destroy itself. That’s why there are so few of them.

    Usually a negative loop kicks in sooner or later. The epidemic runs out of infectable people—or people take increasingly strong steps to avoid being infected. The death rate rises to equal the birth rate—or people see the consequences of unchecked population growth and have fewer babies. The soil erodes away to bedrock, and after a million years the bedrock crumbles into new soil—or people put up check dams and plant trees.

    In those examples, the first outcome is what happens if the positive loop runs its course, the second is what happens if there’s an intervention to reduce its power.

    The most interesting behavior that rapidly turning positive loops can trigger is chaos. This wild, unpredictable, unreplicable, and yet bounded behavior happens when a system starts changing much, much faster than its negative loops can react to it.

  188. Temperatures break record in Russia

    The Age, 10 November 2010

    Temperatures in the Russian capital soared to a record high for November on Wednesday, hitting 13C by midday, the Moscow Weather Office said.

    Overcast skies may prevent the temperature from rising even further above the previous November high of 12.6C, the service said.

    Moscow’s average historical temperature in November is about -1C.

    Russia was hit by a record heatwave and wildfires ravaged the country until well into October, killing dozens of people and causing a health crisis in the capital.

  189. ‘Melting of Arctic ice has wrecked the jet stream, so its oscillations are amplified.’

    That’s not true, the jet stream is behaving normally and has nothing to do with CO2.

    ‘A positive feedback loop is self-reinforcing. The more it works, the more it gains power to work some more.’

    Yeah, but thats not happening…

    The warmth in southern France, a wet UK, freezing Russia and China, simply means global warming has stopped because the jet stream is zig zagging, which it does periodically quite naturally.

  190. Climate Central and Think Progress are both channelling NOAA, nobody else appears to be discussing the warmest year in the US ever.

  191. “…Half the West Antarctic ice sheet and a quarter of the East Antarctic sheet lie on pre-glacial sedimentary basins containing around 21,000bn tonnes of carbon, said the scientists, writing in the journal Nature.

    British co-author Prof Jemma Wadham, from the University of Bristol, said: “This is an immense amount of organic carbon, more than 10 times the size of carbon stocks in northern permafrost regions.

    “Our laboratory experiments tell us that these sub-ice environments are also biologically active, meaning that this organic carbon is probably being metabolised into carbon dioxide and methane gas by microbes.”

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