On the eve of a Coalition policy announcement

The release of the Coalition’s broadband policy is imminent, with some speculation that it may be released as early as tomorrow. That gives the Murdoch media only 24 hours to soften the way by condemning the Government’s NBN with all guns firing.

And haven’t they been busy? What the Coalition’s policy will contain is irrelevant of course. It’s assumed it will be faster, more endurable and of course cheaper than what the Government has provided. Well, cheaper anyway.

Which makes now a good time to go after the cost of the NBN.

Apparently it’s going to cost $90B and this fits nicely into this headline “The Ninety Billion Nightmare – the real cost of the NBN rollout“. We learn that:

The final cost of the NBN rollout could more than double and exceed $90 billion by the time it is finished, according to a new analysis contained in the Coalition’s broadband policy.

So, it’s according to the Opposition.

The Coalition’s estimates of the real capital costs suggested they would be more likely to reach $71 billion, not the $37.4 billion claimed by NBN Co’s most recent estimates. The overall cost to the taxpayer, including overly optimistic revenue targets, would more likely reach $94 billion, the 12-page costing document claims.

What else has the Coalition waffled on about that the Murdoch press has been eager to build a story around? How about this: “Government urged to release ‘true cost of NBN’

Communications Minister Stephen Conroy appears to have made a false claim about the National Broadband Network as he tried to defend the project over allegations it faces massive cost blow outs. Senator Conroy told ABC Radio this morning that the Coalition was a “fact-free zone” but he appears to have wrongly claimed the NBN’s corporate plan was audited by the Auditor-General as he attempted to justify its price tag.

The coalition estimates the final price tag of the NBN could more than double to $90 billion-plus, and that it will take an extra four years to complete.

The claims are made in the coalition’s broadband policy, obtained by The Daily Telegraph, which opposition communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull has promised will be released soon.

Yes, it’s another one of those “the Coalition says  . . .” scoops. Please ignore the fact that it was denied by Senator Conroy, the prime Minister and the Auditor General. Goodness, as if they‘d know.

Meanwhile, Rob Oakeshott, who chaired the Federal Parliament’s committee investigating the NBN has:

. . . lambasted the Coalition for its claim that the real cost of Labor’s National Broadband Network project was likely to be up to $90 billion, pointing out that the treasury and finance departments disagreed with the Coalition’s estimate.

The Coalition has not yet published any document to verify its claim, but this morning the Daily Telegraph reported that using modelling from key telcos and finance industry analysis of the NBN Co’s 2012 corporate plan, the Coalition had estimated the project would take four years longer to finish and potentially cost an extra $45 billion to complete. The newspaper claims to have seen sections of the Coalition’s policy analysis in the area.

However, Rob Oakeshott, the outspoken independent MP whose backing for the NBN helped put the Gillard Government in power back in 2010 and who chaired the Federal Parliament’s committee investigating the project and holding it to account, has a different view. “If today’s Daily Telegraph was true on NBN costing $90 billion, the INDEPENDENT Treasury/Finance boffins would have it on-budget,” Oakeshott said on Twitter this morning. “They don’t.”

Oakeshott further added in comments to some of his followers: ” I am being kind. Let’s see what they produce this week. This is a very big test for Tony Abbott to get his NBN policy right … rate of return, rate of return, rate of return. It is everything in business, and infrastructure – public and private.” And then, referring to the Department of the Treasury: “I’d trust their judgement over politicans/media any day of the week. Apolitical,qualified,and focussed. If not them, then who?”

The Coalition’s $90 billion claim this morning is not the first time it has claimed that the NBN would cost dramatically more than the Federal Government’s estimates. Over the past few months, senior Coalition politicians such as Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull have repeatedly publicly claimed that the NBN could could cost as much as $100 billion to build, despite the company’s own estimates showing that it will require around $37 billion of capital injection from the Government and eventually make a return.

Now why wasn’t that reported in the Murdoch media? Maybe it can be traced back to this:

“The Murdoch media has been leaning to the right since the Whitlam days but the anti-Labor meme was really ramped up just before the 2010 election. The catalyst was Murdoch’s luncheon with Tony Abbott, where the NBN (National Broadband Network) must have been the main talking point as the very next day Abbott publicly announced that he’d rip up the NBN”.

“He pissed a few of us off by jumping too soon, thinking that people might tie the announcement to the meeting with Murdoch, which luckily they didn’t. The NBN will effect Murdoch’s profits, and let’s be very clear on that, so the reason to back Abbott was clearly motivated by money for the media empire”.

How nice to provide us with a bit more evidence and, significantly, on the eve of a Coalition policy announcement.

620 comments on “On the eve of a Coalition policy announcement

  1. They are so predictable, aren’t they, Miglo? Wonder who wrote Malcolm Turnbull’s speech which will be full of the same lies promoted by the Murdoch press.

    I am surprised they didn’t go with Eleventy Joe Hockey’s $100billion. Perhaps they thought that was going over the top a tad too much. Of course, the lack of any supporting documentation will go right over the heads of the gullible Daily Telegraph readers, or browsers as most don’t read more than the headline & first two paragraphs of any article.

    How can this sort of tripe be counteracted? The Murdoch press devotees don’t seem to be interested in the truth & the TV news shows won’t enlighten them either.

  2. Does anybody KNOW the final cost of this massive white elephant ?
    90 Billion is an interim number and 4 years behind schedule is a conservative estimate.

    Add that to the government not being able to actually cost ANY of it’s existing policies and you’ve got the misery that the Australian pubic is faced with.

    You’d do a lot better to ask clarity and transparency from the existing government , rather than to try to find holes in a policy of an opposition who have to present policies without being able to see the detailed numbers…

  3. Henry Ergas had a bash at playing with numbers this morning, which appears to be based on the libs attempt at playing with numbers, all so the oo can have another dig at the NBN. Basically, he is saying that Treasury is wrong, and he is right, and therefore, the NBN should be added to the budget, and, therefore, the budget is in a massive deficit.

    http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=2071103&p=44#r866

    This from the same clowns who tried to slide an $11 BILLION BLACK HOLE past the electorate last election, and are now trying to foist one on the ALP using the same dodgy spreadsheet. Aided and abetted by a media empire who wants the NBN destroyed, or in their hands.

  4. Firstly Migs, very nice pick-up on the blazing headlines. Scare campaign anyone? But of course, the MSM doesn’t label Opposition comments as a “scare campaign” these days..instead they just use them to quote from.

  5. Archie in Wonderland… keep your fairy tales for yourself… at least the liberals have done a costed version with external consultants to come up with the conservative number.

    The labor government AND the NBN incompetents haven’t even been able to cost this debacle properly… and to know that we’re seen as a pretty dumb country wasting taxpayers money hand-over-fist.

    But you wouldn’t care too much about that now would you Archibald ? as you’re probably leeching off taxpayers money too (Karma)

  6. External accountants! Like they did when using Spotless Catering to cost the re opening of Nauru? Or those Perth accountants that delivered the $11B black hole?

  7. Biggles…. the re-opening of Nauru needed be costed if it wasn’t for the massive cock-up that immigration is the past 6 years (don’t forget to rebuttle saying that it’s Abbott’s fault as he’s refusing to be associated with the incompetent immigration policies of labor that have caused over 600 deaths)…..

    the 11 billion blackhole is a figment of the imagination of the labor incompetents, who can’t get ANY of their own policies or budgets costed… let’s all have a good laugh in May when the treasurer dummy annouces the biggest budget deficit in Australian history… after promising ‘Come hell or high water’ for 600 times that this would be a surplus budget…

    Guys… get real… accept you’re defending a bunch of losers and get on with it..

  8. Dirk, just for you:

    THE federal Coalition’s economic credibility has been dealt a blow after a tribunal found that two accountants who costed its 2010 election policies had breached professional standards.

    The ruling is an embarrassment to shadow treasurer Joe Hockey, who wrongly insisted during the campaign that the accountants’ policy costings had been audited.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/lib-policy-costings-exposed-by-ruling-20111130-1o773.html#ixzz2PqWaHU9j

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/lib-policy-costings-exposed-by-ruling-20111130-1o773.html#ixzz2PqWaHU9j

    So, get real, accept you’re defending a bunch of liars and get on with it.

  9. Biggles… we’re off track again… (who is the troll now ?) … not sure if Archer in Wonderland wants this diversion… let’s stick with the incompetence of the government and the NBN to cost a 90 billion dollar white elephant, shall we?

    I don’t have the luxury of time that you have to go and ask my union-mates, or my party-mates for ‘fake’ facts….

    So NBN incompetence clarifications please

  10. This from the same clowns who tried to slide an $11 BILLION BLACK HOLE past the electorate last election,”

    I would trust the Coalitions costings against the Treasuries any day. Didn’t Treasury forecast a $1.5B surplus for this year??

  11. Who can forget when Hockey tried to pass off Liberal party propaganda as a genuine audit.. Geoffrey Phillip Kid and Cyrus Patell, of the Perth office of accountants WHK Horwath, produced a one-page report for the Coalition on its policies two days before the election.

    THE federal Coalition’s economic credibility has been dealt a blow after a tribunal found that two accountants who costed its 2010 election policies had breached professional standards.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/lib-policy-costings-exposed-by-ruling-20111130-1o773.html#ixzz2PqcKAVjZ

  12. Neil to the rescue !!!
    Thanks buddy… this ‘INDEPENDENT Media troupe’ don’t seem to get it on so many levels. The lies – the incompetence – the spin … If I didn’t know any better and wasn’t so naive, I’d say they’re all part of the same troupe that’s causing these policy failures …..

  13. And you people keep forgetting that the Coalition did start to submit their policies for costing before the election and then Wayne Swan released the results for political purposes. The Federal Police were called in and the Coalition went elsewhere because they did not trust Swan.

  14. NBN Inni-Minni-Minie-Mo… focus…. it’s the NBN’s incompetence we’re talking about…

  15. I would trust the Coalitions costings against the Treasuries any day

    I’m guessing nil skipped the part where Migs showed that the Institute of Chartered Accountants didn’t trust the noalitions costings either 😯

  16. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-09-17/afp-drops-probe-into-election-leak/2264308

    Opposition finance spokesman Andrew Robb says the reason the AFP did not identify any Commonwealth offences is because whoever leaked the document was authorised to distribute the material.

    He says the only people authorised to do so would be the Treasurer or one of his senior staff.

    “It is clear from the police investigation that Wayne Swan and his office were up to their necks in the leaking of this confidential Treasury document,” he said.”

    And if you say it was the Coalition who leaked the costings the Federal Police could have charged them with making a false complaint.

  17. From where I sit, any of the Libs is head and shoulders above the best of the labor incompetents.

  18. http://www.afp.gov.au/media-centre/news/afp/2010/september/finalisation-of-referral-in-relation-to-unauthorised-disclosure-of-financial-documents.aspx

    Media Release: Finalisation of referral in relation to unauthorised disclosure of financial documents

    Release Date: Wednesday, September 15 2010, 12:32 PM

    The Australian Federal Police (AFP) has completed an evaluation in relation to a referral received from the Opposition Finance spokesman Andrew Robb MP in relation to unauthorised disclosure of financial documents.

    The evaluation did not identify any Commonwealth offences.

    As such, no further investigation will be undertaken.

    This matter was finalised on 14 September 2010.

    It is not appropriate for the AFP to comment any further.

    Media enquiries:
    AFP National Media Team
    Phone: (02) 6131 6333

    I guess Robb is saying it had to be Swan. If Treasury had leaked it would have been a Commonwealth expense. And if the Coalition had leaked they could have been charged for making a false complaint.

  19. And if the Coalition had leaked they could have been charged for making a false complaint.

    If the police had determined anything, they might have. Another we will never know. But, you claimed quite decisively, when the actual answer is quite murky.

    As were some of the issues surrounding ashby, and gretch 😉

  20. Haven’t read through all of the comments, but just had to reply to Dirk.
    My answer is this – it doesn’t matter what the cost ends up at as long as it is a benefit to all Australians.
    Nothing ever ends up within budget when it transverses time and distance.
    I bet the Snowy Hydro really didn’t end up on budget, or any of the other major infrastructures that were carried out in the past.
    Dirk, you are just part of the LNP propaganda machine, we all know it. Go get a life.

  21. I would say the cost to build the NBN is somewhere in the middle…around $70B. A project of this magnitude over such a long term construct would be expected to blow out. A domestic dwelling blows out be more than 10% in a time frame of four months but Conroy says it will be built on budget? What an idiot!

    Here is another angle. Bearing in mind that another $30B is left to borrow before the ceiling is reached…how is a government going to finance the remainder of the project?

    That’s the reality, folks.

  22. how is a government going to finance the remainder of the project?

    I thought the NBN was off-budget?? NBN Co is borrowing money as a start-up company with the Commonwealth as guarantor. NBN Co can borrow as much money as it likes if some bank is stupid enough to lend them the money.

  23. From where I sit, any of the Libs is head and shoulders above the best of the labor incompetents.

    Let me guess. You’re sitting on the toilet.

  24. ah it does matter Sandra but this is just a load of scare mongering and deceit as usual from the LNP and MSM. I believe the REAL figures that have been provided. I dare say it will only be shock jocks and the tele that see it oh and of course comment on it to which the dumb followers will believe. I bet Renai etc (tech sites) have a field day with it, if it is ever produced!

    Migs, uh oh you got them all!

    I am not falling for their shit. tomr, dik, neil yawn if you seriously believe the shit they are saying (oh and how fucking convenient that daily tele has a copy but no one else can see it), well I have mentioned before what you all are………… YAAAAWWWWNNNN. Go talk to your friends, if you have any, they might listen to you.

  25. You may be correct, Neil but what is effect on the Commonwealth credit rating when the debt ceiling is attained?

    I see a shock happening either late this year or early next year but as usual…the left will try to blame the coalition just as did when Qld was downgraded. The wiser heads are preparing for such an eventuality.

  26. Well, I expect that the Opposition and there hanger ons will once again, disperse with any expert advice.

    Have already gone down the path of comparing apples with oranges.

    All I can say, just question any cost they put forwarded.

  27. It’s a bit like working out the cost of the Sydney Harbour Bridge..may have cost one hell of a lot at the time, and no one could see why catering for a horse and buggy wouldn’t suffice.

    Without giving too much of a history lesson, Australia has always been at the forefront of communications due solely to our isolation. I always think that we should aim for best first rather than a bargain basement variety which in the long term might cost us more…simple logic.

    Then there is of course the contracts already entered into..how much is going to factored in re cost should Abbott chose a different path, or will he conveniently omit that item. This one is something that Tony Windsor stated would cause a huge blowout in the Libs’ costings should Abbott try to get out of existing contracts.

  28. Neil and Co, it matters not what we oldies think on this one. It will be the young that make the decision.

    Just visit some of the internet sites. None believe or want the Opposition’s propositions scheme.

  29. The harbour bridge and the sydney hydro go beyond time and place… an already defunct and technologically-surpassed NBN will not survive the wireless – which is exactly what’s happening in other countries that have smarter governments… and outside of North Korea – that would be all of them…

  30. Additionally, not all of its funding is expected to come from the Government. NBN Co is currently projecting that it will require about $30 billion worth of government investment over its life, with another $14 billion to be funded through debt arrangements.

    NBN Co has already locked in construction contracts for much of the next half-decade in states and territories around Australia, as well as network equipment and other related contracts, giving it significant forward visibility in terms of its costs. In addition, the company has finalised its $11 billion agreement with Telstra and its $900 million deal with Optus, and it is also seeing more Australians take up higher-value NBN plans than it had been estimating, meaning that its revenue estimates may be conservative.

    In comparison, the Coalition has consistently declined to provide detailed financial information relating to its own policy, which is currently based on fibre to the node technology, as opposed to the NBN’s fibre to the home rollout. Turnbull initially stated in mid-August that the Coalition had a fully-costed policy “ready” to be released, but later rescinded the statement, telling the ABC that the Coalition was not in a position to be able to fully cost its policy before the next Federal Election.

    Oakeshott has for some time been frustrated by the fraught level of political debate around the NBN. In the parliamentary NBN committee’s recent fourth report into the project, the independent MP bitterly complained about the sharp divide between the various sides of politics on the issue.

    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/04/08/90bn-nbn-wrong-oakeshott-tells-coalition/

  31. opinion/analysis
    I’ve only got one thing to say to the Coalition on this issue. To misquote Samuel L. Jackson’s character in the seminal 1994 classic Pulp Fiction (and apologies for the strong language here, but I feel as though it’s warranted):

    “Evidence, motherfucker. Do you have some?”

    It should be obvious to anyone who prefers to think rationally rather than just to make stuff up and believe things without evidence that as a senior Australian politician, you can’t just make statements like the NBN will cost double what the Government says it will without some kind of supporting evidence to back your claims. But then, Australian politics isn’t incredibly focused on rational thinking these days supported by evidence, so who knows what the Coalition can get away with at this point.

    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/04/08/90bn-nbn-wrong-oakeshott-tells-coalition/

  32. You really have NFI do you Dirk? Wireless – fckn ignorant luddite. Perhaps you should have listened during high school physics lessons 🙄

  33. dirkrossey, who costed their load of old cobblers? The same mob who did such a good job on their 2010 piece of kindy knitting? Oh, I forgot they aren’t in business any more, after that fiasco.

    Or Spotless Catering, apparently the obvious choice to engage for costing complicated public infrastructure? Did the Menzies government use caterers to cost the Snowy Mountain Scheme, I wonder?

    I suppose that as the Rodent government didn’t bother carrying out any public infrastructure, it stands to reason that the current mob of incompetents in the opposition and their equally stupid barrackers wouldn’t have a clue how major public infrastructure is costed and implemented.

    You do know that NBN is public communications infrastructure? Although judging by your sloppy, ignorant and unresearched comment,probably not.

    The NBN has been costed using correct procedures and by the correct Department. Catering companies do not know how to cost public infrastructure projects.

    And frankly, even if it does cost more than $37.5bn, it will set this country up with state of the art communications infrastructure which will not only serve education, medicine and other vital services well into this century, but will allow business to continue to compete successfully internationally.

    Of course, if you want this country to become an uncompetitive backwater, the Liars useless plan will be ideal. Even Greece will overtake us and Liealot will truthfully be able to say our economy is worse than Greece’s.

    I wonder how well the mining industry will continue to flourish with inferior communications?

  34. Jane… Oh Jane… the noble aspirations of the NBN and that noble labor government… ahhhhh …. a tear in my eye from the commitment to provide wanking support.
    Oh and the fact that it has a less than 75% take-up rate is the free market voting with their dollars… but you near-communists wouldn’t know anything about that… no-no… grand schemes… grand white elephants… more more more… incompetence…

    The NBN is the biggest wank in Australian history… and there IS a double meaning in that… maybe a triple one….

  35. Wireless, dirkrossey? You do know wireless uses fibre, don’t you? And you do know it will never be able to operate at the speed of NBN, let alone carry the volume of data that NBN can?

    Do some research. And ask yourself why countries like Korea, the US, Germany etc are opting for ftth to carry their communications systems and not wireless.

  36. Even if I’d consumed several cases of cheap red wine, I’d still have more nous than someone who gets all their information on telecommunications infrastructure from Ray Hadley & Alan Jones 😆 😆

  37. Dirk and,

    had one too many again Bacchus…

    Had one too many ideas (your problem), had one too many by way of factual information. Dirk, get used to Bacchus, he’ll call you out every single time re BS when he sees it and provides logical argument to back it up.

  38. No Min – providing factual information to Dirk is even more of a waste of time than providing info for Neil. The mind is closed tighter than a fish’s fundamental orifice 😆 Best to treat him with the derision he merits 😆

  39. I wonder if Mr Turnbull has worked out exactly how he’s going to get the lipstick on that pig… :mrgreen:

  40. The Coalition’s broadband policy slogan states that they will “Complete the current NBN cheaper and faster.” This simply isn’t true.

    Talking about facts and analysis, this (long) article from Nick Ross is worth reading, and an invaluable resource wrt to the competing NBN policies.
    Part 1
    Part 2

  41. Bacchus “The mind is closed tighter than a fish’s fundamental orifice 😆 Best to treat him with the derision he merits :lol:”

    I could manage that. 😀

  42. What do you lap lnp stooges propose we do? Nothing! As is your usual lnp policy. Look at the disgraceful state of our roads and rail systems, all thanks to jwh. Stop whinging all the time and just enjoy living in the best country in the world. You are all employed on six figure salaries you all live in big houses thanks to low interest rates and you all drive nice cars, so what are you so worked up about

  43. I just found out why you guys (and lassies) love the NBN so much… it helps you wank more…

  44. Guddy, I think that you have it..what precisely do the LNP supporters want? When it was Howard, we were all supposed to be “aspirationals”, aspiring to what I could never quite work out..another house, another lounge suite, a super dooper double delux toilet brush..just exactly was it? Therefore to me Abbott’s message is completely lost, what is it that he wants as apparently we’re not supposed to even aspire any more.

  45. ohh yes…. Rosunwell…. make sure you can see your seXFILES faster and longer…. haha…
    Forgive me… you’re just such easy targets…

  46. Dirk,

    If you concentrate hard enough you might almost work yourself up into something resembling humour.

    But at least you managed to remain on topic, a sterling effort. Wanking and NBN and the increase of this activity – it could happen as you would have faster downloads. 😆

  47. The supporters simply blindly do what HQ tells them Min – Migs (or was it Peter 😉 ) has hit on the real reason: “The NBN will effect (sic*) Murdoch’s profits, and let’s be very clear on that, so the reason to back Abbott was clearly motivated by money for the media empire”.

    * most of the time:
    affect => verb (Swanny’s super changes won’t affect my pension fund earnings)
    effect => noun (Cause and effect)

  48. While close-minded, unthinking coalition supporters poo-poo the idea of the NBN, forward thinking business types are already developing global markets for their products, no matter where they’re based…

    http://www.armidaleindependent.com.au/wordpress/index.php/2012/02/business-embraces-nbn/

    Won’t it be great to actually start to decentralise the country – ease the congestion in our cities, because many will be able to work from wherever they happen to be, no longer dependent on infrastructure that’s currently only available in the big cities…

  49. Good grief Bacchus, I remember when Ben Tolputt used to get Migs and I mixed up continuously..we had really hoped that the new gravatars might help. 😀

    It was Migs (or Peter ;))..but to add my three pennies worth, what else..why else would the Murdoch media not want the NBN to go ahead..because it’s going to 1. allow we plebs even more access to things which we *should* have to pay for, 2. because they can’t work out how to turn it into a monopoly.

  50. Bacchus… and don’t forget the other Utopian joke the NBN tries to make dummies belief in … that the elderly can stand on a scale and it would analyse them and send all their data through to their doctor… kumbaya…. all together now…

  51. can somebody please release me from having to read all the crap on here .. ?
    Biggles…. can ?

  52. Dirk, I think you’ll find the people here less obliging than those at The AIMN. You will be called out for you bullshit in bucket loads.

    We generally don’t take too kindly to trolls.

  53. @ dirk, I thought all the old-fashioned name trolls had gone to that Usenet heaven in upper cyberspace. But, since you insist, I may be silly and stupid but I damn sure ain’t batshit crazy!

  54. *ClinK* …… cellars open I hear…… hav’nt been there for a while, hope Bacc’s hasn’t drank it dry again 🙄 …… I see Dirks in perpetual opposition again,.. he just can’t seem to get anything right can he. So lost these aspirationals….. sad really. 😦
    Can’t wait for Rickys take on the MSMLNP policy…. now theres something to look forward to, Dirk.

  55. Sorry Min – there should have been a full stop after your name 😳

    The monopoly bit still worries me when it comes to the planned sale of the NBN in the 2020s. IMO, the infrastructure should be held in government hands for the good of all Australians, giving equal access to many ISPs, who will provide the competitive impetus to drive faster and faster growth in the use of the infrastructure (and hence more revenue to the government).

    Neo-con economics says that someone will sell it off to the highest bidder, to their advantage, and our detriment…

  56. Scaps, Michael kept in contact with John McP for some time as did I. However, I lost contact. I agree, great value.

  57. Bacchus, being an egalitarian/leftie/red under the bed from way back, I believe that all things essential to the good governance of a country should be in government hands. Bad governments come and go, but bad private enterprises linger on. If a private enterprise takes over the running of essential services it takes one hell of a lot more than a vote at the next election to rid oneself of the blight.

  58. Migs, one does wonder what some who come here are on. Looks like re are in for a rerun of all the anti NBN rubbish. All which has been disproved a hundred times.

    No matter who wins this one, down the track, within a few short years, the move will be necessary to do what we have now. That is fibre to the premises.

    Any other system is only as good as the crapped out copper wire, they want to hook it onto,

    To continue with the NBNCo, is in the long run, the cheapest way to go.

    The maintenance cost ot the copper wire, for a few years is much greater than that of fibre. Many times more.

    As for wireless, yes a wonderful thing, but it does not replace fibre,. It supplements and relies on fibre.

    The Turnbull scheme will not save much, and will not be put in place much quicker. In fact, by the time they achieve that, they will then begin to the premises, by passing copper.

    As for an monopoly, it was the Telstra monopoly that led to the 17 attempts and failure of Howard, and the first scheme of Rudd.

    Yes, all ISP’S had to deal with the Telstra monopoly y. If Howard had split off the two arms when Telstra was sold, we might already have in place a worthwhile fast broadband.

    It is separating those two arms, that has led to extra cost and delays in the NBNCo. They have now been sorted out.

    NBNCo has contracts signed for the next five uears.

    This egg might just be too difficult and expensive to unscramble, for no worthwhile reason.

    In the long run, we will have fibre to the premises. That is progress.

    In this country, yes it is a expensive programme, but it is the sparse population on a large island continent, that makes it essential and worthwhile.

    If we are going to be a part of the Asian century, we need the latest technology we can get.

    As the carpenter says, measure twice and cut once. Get it right the first time, a lot cheaper in the long run.

    Yes, we are a wealthy country that can afford to invest in our future.

  59. Scaper, I’m cooking pan fried chicken, garlic and mushrooms with risoni for dinner tonight..what are you having?

  60. Trouble for some, fast broadband by fibre with fast up and downloads will change the way that TV is transmitted across the land.

  61. “Wayne Swan released the results”

    I believe it was impossible for this to happen. Mr. Swan did not have access to the costings for starters. Hard To leak something one does not see.

    The only ones to benefitted from the findings being released was Abbott. Allowed them to bypass any further costing and genuine auditors.

    They had that accountancy firm signed up long before anything was released d.

    Yes, they, in MHO leaked themselves.

    By the tone ossome here,one would think that the Opposition is terrified of the reception Mr. Turnbull’s announcement are going to get.

    Mr. Turnbull does not have to convince us oldies, it is the young they have to con.

    That could be a hard task.

  62. What Turnbull is proposing is to hook up the latest technology onto a hybrid system of copper wire and other technology. All of which is already redundant. No matter what they say, it will only be as good as that copper.

  63. Exactly Fu:

    http://delimiter.com.au/2012/05/01/worst-of-the-worst-photos-of-australias-copper-network/

    The neighbour over the back fence approached me a few weeks ago, telling me her landline phone was out & asking about mine. (It’s OK) After the recent spate of weather here, apparently, there are no usable spare pairs in the cables that come from the exchange & many people are without a phone until Telstra pulls in new cables. So much for the wonderful state of the copper 🙄

    One of the schemes they’ve been talking about to get speeds up on the copper uses two pairs of wires (VDSL2) – they can’t even provide enough working pairs for existing customers – how will they go needing 2 pairs? Will they haul in more copper? Why not go the whole hog & pull in fibre while they’re at it? You know, do it once & do it right 😉

  64. Maybe a little off thread. Sorry if I offend.

    “………..Like the Tea Party in the US, this purports to be a “people’s movement,” but it is actually orchestrated by big players to advance their own interests and political objectives. In the US it was the Koch Brothers. In Australia it has been Alan Jones and Senator Cory Bernardi – both stood down from their positions because of their extremist statements.

    Bernardi travelled to America to study how the Tea Party movement was organised and then returned to set up a propaganda network on social media.

    Tony Abbott and co happily associate themselves with far right extremists.

    Bigoted bloggers and on-line fanatics circulate all kinds of wild scuttlebutt, shamelessly using lies, half lies, faked documents and unsubstantiated accusations against the government and the prime minister.

    Dr Anne Summers has exposed the disturbing extent of this crude, tasteless and deceitful material..”

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/a-fair-go-for-prime-minister-julia-gillard/

  65. Do it once and do it right … haha…. pink bats…. building the education ‘revolution’ joke – export of life cattle debacle – NBN – illegal immigrants … haha… THAT bacchus was the best joke all evening…

  66. Dirk, you are the one that has not kept up. Pink Batts, successful. Rudd should have stood behind Garrett. How many enquiries that found nothing wrong. Was it a million and quarter roofs that have insulation, leading to great power savings. No, Rudd was not responsible e for those four deaths. It was greedy employers who should have known better. Yes, they were all electricians.

    Thanks to that scheme, the industry is now much safer, a regulations have been
    develope. By the way, it was up top the states to ensure workplace safety.

    School buildings, science and language laboratories and computerisation of the school system. Do not hear many complaints. Was it three enquiries there, that found nothing wrong. In fact private industry would have been proud of the results.

    Now for live cattle export, it was the PM’s quick action that got the industry back on track. If she delayed, the protesters might have got ahold, and the industry disappear forever.

    Boat people. Yes there is a plan, the Housten Plan. Needs to be put in place. Yes, it does need Abbott’s cooperation.

    What we have now is a harsher Pacific Solution of Howard, that is not working. Do you really believe Abbott can wave a magic wand, turn about the boats and problem solved. Believe there is an election coming up in Indonesia.

    No, they are not turning back boats in Sri Lanka, they are stopping them from going. This PM has sent hundred’s back to Sri Lanka.

    The joke is not on Bacchus, the joke’s on you.

    By the way, Pink Batts and School halls has nothing to do with this government,

  67. dirkrossey: “The harbour bridge and the sydney hydro go beyond time and place… an already defunct and technologically-surpassed NBN will not survive the wireless – which is exactly what’s happening in other countries that have smarter governments… and outside of North Korea – that would be all of them…”

    Fact-free rubbish. Which are these countries? Which is the wireless that can be better than fiber? Ever heard of “frequency of electromagnetic radiation” ? Maybe light has a higher frequency than radio waves? Does this have an influence on how much information can be carried? You know, something called “bandwidth”? This guy is one of those technologically challenged guys that never even had high school science. That’s why he switches to abuse at the first sign of “tech talk”. So his “arguments” are “ha-ha” etc.followed by a list of the “standard” lib talking points, which have all been debunked any number of times but he thinks that if he repeats them endlessly, some morons like him will begin to think they are true. A typical semi-educated lib troll who is a complete joke himself. Ignore!

  68. Do it once and do it right … haha…. pink bats…. building the education ‘revolution’ joke – export of life cattle debacle – NBN – illegal immigrants … haha… THAT bacchus was the best joke all evening…

    I see DICK’s still about …

    PInk bats are actually fireproof … ’cause they are fibreglass, dick, metal bats caused fires and electrocution – plus poor training and lack of state controls … abominable … the perpetrators are being brought to justice as we fuck around talking about it!

    School halls in my area (I have two g/kids at state primary and one at state high … the other, older, two suffered a lack of any support at all under Howard and Costello – most funding went to the private schools who, locally, now own BUSES!) but the school halls have proved a boon – we don’t need to go to other schools for presentations, they can be hired out by the P&F and they are valuable as concert venues for budding musicians and singers (my g/daughte plays the flute and is in the school choir … and with al the rain in Queensland over the last two years particularly they have allowed sports to continue to keep the kids fit!

    BTW, Dick, how many kids do you have? Where do they go to school?

    The NBN is the way of the future for medical/health, education, commerce, and yeah, education … I just hope religion doesn’t get hold of it … the Snowy River Scheme was bagged by Liberals as was the Indian Pacific railway …Howard sold off the Ghan (Adelaide to Darwin) at a third of the cost the LIBERAL government built it for … if Costrello and Howard hadn’t sold off Telstra (to balance the budget … LOL!) the NBN would have cost 30% less than it will today … the NBN is the way of the future – and you claim to be a management consultant GMAFB! I’ve never heard anyone in business bag the NBN! They KNOW! … you probably have a wi-fi and/or 4G connection … the NBN will actually improve that tech too … wallow in ignorance all you want … Dick …

    Anyone who bags the NBN has NEVER been out of the major cities … where the ral Aussies roam! Lol!

    As for “illegal immigrants” … most arrive by plane – England, Canada, USA, Belgium … and FYI, I was a boat people and arrived here for free … you wouldn’t believe how I and my immediate family of eleven (we live in the same street too) have contributed to this nation … far more, I supect, than you could ever do …

    Prattle from ignorant pricks, is just that, fkn prattle … and you call the Prime Minister a liar … check your facts before you prattle again … I only pop in here occasionally …

    Just to catch up with you and other wankers …

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    G’day Baccy … how’r ya goin’, mate … we’re surrounded by ’em, hey?

  69. Yes, they were all electricians.

    Wrong, FU … electricians have got better things to do that fit aluminium batts …

  70. Hi TB, it is truly great to see you around. As you know, the Minister is one of my all time favourite people..send my love.

    Same as you, I could never quite work out how fibreglass could spontaneously combust, it being a fire retardant. Mind you, I’ve seen 3 milch cows eat a fibreglass surfboard..but that’s another story.

    And yes, as any member or former member of any P&C would know, school halls are not only facilities for the kids for extra curricula activities such as band practice and sport but provide much needed revenue by leasing it out as a venue.

  71. The firm two of them worked for was an electrician company. It is the bosses I am talking about. Funny, I used an old establish firm, but the two who put the batts in told they were electricians. Just recalled that.

    There were many established business that joined in. Not as many fly by nighters, as one would expect. The money was good.

    If there was a downturn in the building trade at the time, would be a way of keeping your workers.

    Still, if I am wrong, I am sorry. They were established firms, that should have known better.

  72. Yes totaram what you say is sound advice at the ‘rational’ level. Wireless speeds will undoubtedly improve ‘dramatically’ over time (even horses are much faster these days and telegram boys on Avanti bikes would now be so much quicker LOL) but wireless speeds will never compete with those delivered by fibre-optic cables.

    Debating the ‘science’ and resulting ‘technology’ is not productive. It’s only for dumbos.

    Nevertheless, the debate re NBN, fibre to the premises (FTTP) version, is in real danger. Murdoch knows that FTTP will be the death knell for Foxtell and will therefore run the ‘cost’ argument long and hard.

    But he might be placated if he could snap up the NBN at a bargain basement price. Who knows?

  73. Min, they still do. Priced some the other day, as I want to do the garage that was not covered by the scheme. With the help of the kids, I did my father’s home in Wentworthville. Lovely high roof and was easy. No fancy down lights etc.

  74. dirkrossey, read the following. Like I said, do some research, but of course like all Liars barrackers you’re fact averse, instead choosing to believe fairy tales.

    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/01/08/spectacularly-shortsighted-debating-2012-nbn-take-up-rates/#comment-603699

    When copper is turned off, there will be no alternative to taking up NBN, so your argument is specious. And if you can honestly say that wireless is a better technology with a straight face, then maybe Liealot should employ you to spruik his rubbish, for want of a better word, “policies”.

  75. G’day TB – good to see you again 🙂

    I think most have worked “Dirk” out now – definitely not worth the effort… I’ve come across a few “Dirks” in my time, but I’m sure you’ve suffered more of them, given your field of expertise… Tiny intellect – huge ego. Yes, “surrounded” is probably an apt description at times, especially in your case 😉

  76. Hi, TB. Nice to see you again. 😀

    I could never quite work out how fibreglass could spontaneously combust, it being a fire retardant.

    Min, you know that and I know that and so does the troll, but like all barrackers the truth is not in him. he worships at the shrine of Liealot the Mendacious and that other great symbol of truthiness, Ltd news.

  77. TBC soon you will not be surrounded by ‘them’ anymore… soon the libs will rule and kick the incompetents out. I’ve got 3 kids… 2 that go to public school in NSW. That school had begged the Building the E R (read with pomp in your voice like the redhead would)… team to have a few classrooms and a toilet block… but NO NO NO… the B E R (read with the boring Peter G voice now – Mr beds are burning) the program was only for COLAs and Libraries and HALLS… haha… so – in order to perpetuate the madness of the labor incompetents, their school got a SECOND hall, so they now have certain activities in the ‘old’ hall and certain in the ‘new’ 3 MILLION WHITE ELEPHANT hall….

    A joke… like everything labor touches….

    I know why you lot are shaking in your booties – scared that the libs will win with the landslide that’s predicted…. because the first thing they’ll do is to have an inquiry into the UNIONS… ahha… now we’re scared… so we MUST stop them… otherwise all our dirty laundry will come out.. and many of us will go to jail…. not a good thing even if you have fat and guaranteed public servants superannuation funding

  78. Interestingly, when I was reading comments on the delimiter link I posted above, there were two commenters who reminded me of certain trolls who infest CW & TPS at times. Both fact free zones.

  79. Who is this Dickhead Rossey person? We get enough crap from the MSM and Abbott without all this rubbish!

  80. When my boy was about to start high school (now Yr 9) …. I did the ‘parental tour’ thingy that all nsw highs do…… and the first cab off the rank was the new hall….. thats right the BER Hall…… and the teacher/guide inspired us with his awe of this modern teaching tool……….. its got the electroconic white board thingies… and the interactive computer skype-ish doove-it’s ma jig… yup, all that technicalmal thingy-ma-whatsits…. but the thing that struck me was the little talk he gave on the advancement the “hall’ provided for teacher training here in Far West NSW… where once a teacher was sent to Sydney to get the latest training/news/policy instruction etc and then came back and tried to bring the rest of the teachers up to speed …at a cost to the school budget and minus one teacher for that interim … now they all go to the BER hall and “get up dated on ‘woteva’ together….. with no missing teacher…. at a very minimal cost…… and yet some, for obvious political and ideological reasons, try and misinform and call this “BOON” a white nelliephant……. wake up or lie Dirk….. choose…..!! The ‘Halls’ are saving money and providing better training for teachers and students….. it’s called infrastructure Dirk.. as an aspirational you may not have come across the term.

  81. Hi Baccy @9.44pm, I agree that poor old dirk is what my husbandy substance refers to as a dirk whacker. He really should stop it or he’ll go blind; he’s already as silly as a wheel.

    I have just donated to IA’s Ashbygate Trust. they’re hoping to raise enough money for further investigation into Ashbygate. It would be very gratifying if Liealot had to run his campaign from prison. 😀

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/2013/politics/update-on-the-ashbygate-trust/


  82. Following the federal government’s announcement of its proposed changes to our superannuation system, media sought the views of Opposition Leader Tony Abbott. I quote what he had to say, after making the almost mandatory reference to ”shades of Cyprus”: ”It [the proposal] is a $1 billion hit on savings that belong to the people and it shows that this is a government which is prepared to tax the people to fund its own spending.”
    Now, given that Mr Abbott has a degree in each of law and economics – from Sydney University no less – and is a Rhodes Scholar to boot, that is indeed a remarkable statement, for two reasons: first, the so-called hit is not on savings, it’s on earnings from those savings. How radical for a government to tax earnings, almost unheard of in world political history.
    And lo! A government which taxes its people to fund its expenditure? I can’t think of too many governments that don’t do just that, other than the dodgy tax haven countries, otherwise how on earth would they remain viable? It appears to me either that Mr Abbott has no idea whatsoever of political economics or he thinks we are all idiots. I

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/letters/abbott-the-political-economist-be-afraid-be-very-afraid-20130407-2hewe.html#ixzz2Pt2BXBNZ

  83. LOVO… banter and god ol’ facts are allowed here… but can you keep lies to yourself… the incompetents of labour have not paid for ONE electronic board under the BER…. stop lying for crying out loud… it’s enough we have the redhead and her ministers lying throught their teeth

  84. Imagine a Fiberal troll accusing others of dishonesty! Right Wing Projection – is there one of them (even one) that doesn’t do this?

  85. News this morning, inbetween Thatcher dying (harsh I know but good riddance), is the Coalition’s broadband plan, no it’s not a policy, there are no details just an outline plan, will be cheaper, roll out sooner and be much slower.

    Then of course there are the costs they won’t tell you about like the significant one of maintenance. But then us honest and credible people here expected nothing else but obfuscation and trickery in the release of a Coalition plan.

  86. that is indeed a remarkable statement

    Well, not really. Abbott (along with the other Fiberals) are notorious for dishonesty.

  87. Cuppa of course not, it’s there stock and trade. Lie and deceive whilst accusing others of being the liars and deceivers. Dirk is just another insignificant right wing pissant liar down in the gutter with the rest of them. Just scroll.

  88. Then of course there are the costs they won’t tell you about like the significant one of maintenance. But then us honest and credible people here expected nothing else but obfuscation and trickery in the release of a Coalition plan.”

    Well this was one of the policies which helped Labor win the 2007 election

    We were told it would be finished in 5 years and cost $4.7B which means Labor should be finishing the NBN about now. Anybody who trusts anything Labor says is a fool.

  89. Hi Mobius,

    Will certainly scroll the pissant. There’s an avalanche of that sort of right wing filth across the “mainstream” media echo chamber. We don’t need it here.

  90. NBN faster – better – cheaper… sounds like a liberal plan…. Well done Tony and Malcolm. Keep up the pressure on these lyers…

    But be careful because the lefties (brain-dead as they are) have a tendencey to steal good ilberal ideas to claim them as their own.. that’s why they’re all pushing (via the McTurt incompetent) for the policiers to be released… so they can copy them…

    Thank God Tony and Malcolm are smarter…

  91. Dirk on stealing ideas..hence the reason that the late great Matty Price named Costello’s budget the Ruddget.

    No way would Labor “steal” Abbott’s ideas especially his you’beaut idea of bringing in 2-tier marriages, one returning to *the good old days* of pre-1975. Mind you, Abbott’s mentor Cardinal Pell would love him for it, probably grant him a few dispensations in return and a guaranteed place in Heaven.

    And the Bat-phone to the patrol boats likewise looks a bit iffy.

  92. Times, they are a changin’

    The ambitious plans, to be unveiled today, will be used by the opposition as part of an attempt to defuse the government claim that it would “demolish” the NBN if elected.

    😯

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/earlier-cheaper-slower-the-coalition-nbn/story-fn59niix-1226615299772

    More Labor spin is it ❓

    Abbott orders Turnbull to demolish NBN

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-09-14/abbott-orders-turnbull-to-demolish-nbn/2260320

    ltdnews, rewriting history in real time. Two years of rampant fear-mongering and continual NO!, and we are supposed to just forget that and move on. And then they have the temerity to claim that it is behind schedule, after attempting for two years to ‘destroy’ it, and placing every road block imaginable in front of it.

    I would also like to see it explained how they intend to recompense Telstra, which is one of the reasons Labor opted for the FTTP. I imagine they aim to ‘unroll’ that one too?

  93. Tom, I thought to call it one of the most major of brain f*rts in political history but I am certain that Tony has many many more of them to come in the future..so thought to reserve the rhetoric and stick with the description “iffy”. 😉

  94. Looks like ‘iffy’ will be getting a working out in light of this latest ‘policy’ release then Min.

  95. Tom R,

    More Right-Wing Projection. Do what you accuse your opponents of.

    The Opposition Oracle (aka The Australian) says this:

    an attempt to defuse the government claim that it would “demolish” the NBN if elected.

    … when earlier Abbott was saying this:

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-09-14/abbott-orders-turnbull-to-demolish-nbn/2260320

  96. Meanwhile, the terror, hot on hte heels of being found guilty of MSU continue to MSU

    Hint, 20 / 37 != 0.5

    And that is before we even consider how much compensation Telstra will be receiving for plugging into their network. Also, not sure how they can keep this one off budget, as Labors plan relies on take-up rates for return (which will be close to 100%, as there is no alternative) whereas the libs will be in direct competition with Telstra and all of the other players?

  97. Turnbull on the NBN? I thought Abbott told him to get rid of it and now they are putting in their own Policies for it. It is going to cost $5,000 to have it put into their homes, businesses, Schools and Hospitals. I may not be up with things but I smell a RAT. Could it be something to do with SHARES?????

  98. If you want to talk about honesty you should be talking about Labors election policy in 2007. We were told the NBN would cost $4.7B and be finished in 5 years. It won them a lot of votes.

    Since much money has already been spent and contracts signed I guess it would be almost impossible to pull down what has started.

  99. It won them a lot of votes.

    And their upgraded version is proving more popular than they anticipated, which is why the libs and the msm are attempting to forget from history the pledge to ‘destroy’ it.

    Any one with half a clue understand that, particularly because of the terrible mess howard left Telstra in for the public, FTTP is really the only solution that makes financial and social sense.

  100. I guess it would be almost impossible to pull down what has started.

    Yet it didn’t stop the opposition from spouting it into any microphone handy. Time for those words to come back to haunt now.

  101. LOVO, I wonder where all those whiteboards alone come from. We can even ignore all the computers in every classroom. LOVO, I sat with my granddaughter, watching on that amazing whiteboard and the huge screen that went with it, interacting with a school in the Broken Hill area. It was as if all were in one room. That was Picton primary by the way.

    Dirk, you are nothing more than bull shit.

    Listened to Turnbull this morning. Promising a much slower broadband to many fewer people, at nearly the same co

    He said if a person like a architect or programme builder wanted faster speed from home, they could pay the few thousand needed to do so. It appears those cabinets will be no more than a thousand meters from any home. But I suspect, only in built up areas, from how he spoke. If you want better, sell up and move to new building estates.

    Get this clear, Turnbull is not offering us what the NBNCo will deliver.

    .

  102. Neil, that first plan of Rudd’s did not work, for exactly the 17 previous ones of Howards did not. It was becuase of the power of Telstra, with owning the copper wire. Neil, no private developer came to the party.

    Labor went back to the drawing board and came up with NBN. It acknowledges that the copper wire system they were attempting to hook up fibre to , was well past it’s use by date. It is acknowledge, that even with the Turnbull option, the copper wire will need replacing. The fibre will only give the results to the level of what the copper wire it is connected to.

    Yes, that crapped out and what should be redundant wire will take hundreds of million to maintain. Fibre has low maintenance costs.

    Who wants a huge, metal cabinet, as they call them on each street corner. Imagine if no home is to be a thousand meters from one, how many there will be. Good enough reason in itself to go straight to fibre.

    What we have to decide, is whether we go yo fibre to the premise now, or in the future.

    Makes sense to do it now.

  103. I wonder who left the world a better place than they found it.

    Actress Annette Funicello, longtime Disney and “Beach Party” star, died Monday at age 70 in Bakersfield, California, according to the Annette Funicello Research Fund for Neurological Diseases Inc. and the Official Disney Fan Clu

    It clear that Thatcher did do one thing, increased the margin between the rich and poor. Whether that is seen is good, I do not know.

    .

  104. Notice Abbott is only talking abkut download speeds. Nothing about upload. Nothing about the speeds uploading and down loading at one time.

    Not one, tow but three new enquiries.

    Abbott is sure good on wanting enquiries on every problem he males. Could that be a let out clause on every policy promise, the man makes.

    Nothing about maintenance.

  105. They intend to buy degraded copper off Telstra. That makes sense. It appearts Abbott was out at the launch.

  106. The polls are conclusive the lnp broadband policy is in disarray . 74% in favour of labor 26% for the libs. No confidence in Turnbull or Abbott, surely they must be replaced or even better resign

  107. A bit off topic, but I couldn’t help but pass on this one in today’s Age.. I don’t agree with the article in it’s entirety especially that Abbott has some sort of grasp of issues effecting Aboriginal Australia..but some very good insights.

    The Coalition’s economic policies remain largely a blank sheet; it has had nothing to say about the high dollar, the two-speed economy, the collapse in the revenue base, or what will follow the mining boom. Yet these issues could dominate its term in government.

    It has pledged to cut income tax and company tax, and repeal the carbon tax and mining tax – while spending more on parental leave payments for higher-income workers, and beefing up Work for the Dole and the Green Corps, etc. Yet the only savings I spotted in Real Solutions are to cut under-30s off the dole if there are labouring jobs vacant in their area, and to throw people off disability benefits if their disabilities are ”unlikely to be permanent”. That won’t get the budget back in surplus.

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/abbotts-big-bold-plan-much-too-short-on-detail-20130409-2hhun.html#ixzz2PvvfrVMC

  108. Mr Oakeshott said the Coalition’s plan undermined the ”vision” of the project.

    ”One of the core reasons why Tony Windsor and I believed we had to go with the government of the day was . . . because they planned to do it once and do it right,” Mr Oakeshott said.

    I’m with the indies..do it right the first time around which saves fck ars*ng around. And if it’s so-called “cheaper” how much would future upgrades cost? The Libs have a pattern of this, eg the Sea Sprites helicopters..buy 2nd hand on the cheap and then upgrades which have to be commenced ASAP because by the time Stage 1 is completed, then Stage 2 (years away) should be at shovel ready stage. And then the cost ends up far more than it would have to do something properly the first time around.

    Reminds me of my mum’s “cheap” toaster which cost her more in petrol to return it several times than if she had spent the extra $10.00 and bought a decent one in the first place.

  109. neil – do yuou feel the same – that talking to these people is worse than reading a newspaper in a storm…. they ONLY listen to their own voices… and there is so much group-think here that it’s impossible to get in edgeways…

  110. Labor “stealing” Liars Party ideas, Min. Have you managed to stop laughing?

    That would be like a car thief pinching the clapped out car up on blocks with all four doors missing when right next to it is a brand new top of the range beemer with the smart key on the driver’s seat.

    Neil, I presume you’re talking about the enormous cost of maintaining those countless nodes and the second hand, past its use by date copper, which is the foundation of what the Liars laughing call their alternative to Labor’s Rolls Royce communications policy?

  111. “that talking to these people is worse than reading a newspaper in a storm

    I think politics is like religion. People believe what they want to believe and facts are irrelevant.

    I have been posting with these people long enough to know that if in 2007 John Howard promised high speed broadband at a cost of $4.7B to be rolled out over a 5 year time frame and it did not happen they would be abusing the crap out of Howard.

    Rudds broadband policy in 2007 won Labor a lot of votes. It was to take 5 years to complete. They actually had to trash their election plan because, well i forget. Their next plan was worked out on the back of a postage stamp on some plane flight between Sydney and Melbourne. That is the one going to cost $37B they tell us.

  112. Dirk, my mum is 89yrs old and I am certain knows one hell of lot more about toasters than you ever will. Farm girl, grew up at Tungamah.

    The point of course was, get it right the first time and even if it costs a few extra dollars, it saves a lot in the long run. Or is this concept a bit too heavy going for you…

  113. They actually had to trash their election plan because, well i forget.

    Telstra was more of a incalcitrant behemoth than even they thought. 😉

  114. Love the interview with Turnbull on ABC radio local at this time. He is not faring very well.

  115. Dirk, no ones compels you to visit. Neil, which of the 17 attempts of Howard that failed are you talking about.

  116. That worked out on the plane is a furthy. Been well and truly discredited. The planning was well in train,, before Conroy joined Rudd on a plane trip to NG, I believe. Yes, they decided to use that time for good purpose.

  117. Have a read …. you lose
    ————————————————————————————-
    The next Coalition government will deliver fast broadband that’s affordable for all Australians.
    The Coalition’s plan to transform the NBN will see:
    · Download speeds of between 25 and 100 megabits per second by the end of 2016 and 50 to 100 megabits per second by 2019.
    · The rollout of the NBN under the Coalition will be complete by the end of 2019.
    · Regions with substandard internet services will receive priority rollout.
    · Basic broadband plans will always be more affordable under the Coalition than under Labor. Projections show that prices will be $24 cheaper a month by 2021 than under Labor’s NBN projected prices.
    · The Coalition’s NBN will cost tens of billions less to complete than Labor’s NBN.
    The Coalition’s plan will ensure the National Broadband Network is rolled out faster and cheaper, resulting in lower prices for consumers.
    Families and businesses will enjoy significant increases in bandwidth given that download rates in Australia currently average less than 5 megabits per second.
    Under the Coalition’s NBN all premises will have access to download speeds 25mbps to 100mbps by the end of 2016. The minimum speed will rise to 50mbps by the end of 2019 for 90 per cent of fixed line users.
    We will give highest priority to the suburbs, towns and regions with the poorest broadband services today.
    By contrast, Labor has failed to deliver any improvement in service to up to 2 million premises with poor broadband. Homes with a sub-standard service, new housing estates with no connection at all and the many multi-dwelling premises (such as apartment blocks) that have not been connected have little or no prospect of getting better broadband under Labor.
    The Coalition’s NBN will be affordable for consumers.
    From day one, average retail prices under a Coalition NBN won’t exceed prices for Labor’s NBN.
    Over time, rollout savings will mean the average household broadband plan for the Coalition’s NBN will be considerably more affordable than the same plan if Labor’s NBN proceeds.
    By 2021, the projected retail cost of the average broadband plan under a Coalition NBN would be $66 per month, compared to at least $90 per month with Labor’s NBN.
    Labor’s own modelling predicts that prices for household broadband plans will have to quadruple in the next few years if the NBN is ever to repay the borrowed money spent to build it. Such increases will leave the NBN out of reach for average Australian families.
    The Coalition’s NBN will be affordable for taxpayers.
    A Coalition government will reduce the burden on taxpayers, by drastically reducing the funding needed to complete the project.
    Funding costs for the Coalition’s NBN will be approximately 66 per cent less than Labor’s NBN. That’s based on the latest analysis showing Labor’s NBN will cost more than $90 billion to complete.
    Our plan will cost $29.5 billion. This will ensure the NBN is cash flow positive and can operate without assistance from government.
    There will be greater transparency under the Coalition
    A Coalition government will conduct:
    · A rigorous review into NBN Co.’s current commercial progress and options to meet the Coalition’s policy objectives.
    · An independent audit into how Labor’s costly NBN was designed with no cost-benefit analysis or any consideration of other options.
    · An independent review into the long-term structure and regulation of telecommunications.
    There’ll be more accountability under a Coalition government with NBN Co. required to report more often to parliament, to explain its financial performance to taxpayers each quarter and provide more disclosure about its rollout and end-user take-up.
    The Coalition’s plan will ensure that all Australian households and businesses can reap the benefits of the NBN much sooner and at affordable prices for consumers.
    Labor has a record of failure in delivering the NBN.
    Under Kevin Rudd, Labor promised fast broadband for all Australians by 2013 for a cost of $4.7 billion.
    After more than 5 years in Government, only 10,400 users have signed up to the Labor’s fibre network despite $7.5 billion in cash injections to the NBN by June – already almost double the money Kevin Rudd said was needed to complete the entire NBN.
    Based on the NBN’s own targets – which they have consistently failed to meet – the rollout will not be finished until 2021. On its current pace, the rollout will take years longer.
    Labor now claims its NBN will cost $37 billion but latest estimates and available data indicate this projection is completely misleading. The real cost of Labor’s NBN is likely to be more than $90 billion by 2021.

  118. haha… like now we need to belief some twit over a genuine policy….. that ‘ll be the day

  119. Yet the only savings I spotted in Real Solutions are to cut under-30s off the dole if there are labouring jobs vacant in their area, and to throw people off disability benefits if their disabilities are ”unlikely to be permanent”.

    Hasn’t he come up with the same harebrained scheme before? I believe he was going to ship the young unemployed off to the Kimberley.

    But it is nice to see that he thinks under 30 gels would be able to get a labouring job instead of ironing. Quite the feminist.

    Just when does he propose to chuck people whose disabilities are unlikely to be permanent, off benefits?

    We’ve been treated to another heartwarming display of LIealot’s empathy for the disadvantaged and sick. How touching. He’s obviously been in talking to David Cameron.

    Cuppa @2.37pm, roflmao!

    Basic broadband plans will always be more affordable under the Coalition than under Labor

    You mean like interest rates, unemployment, inflation…..? Bwwahahahahahahahaha!

    I suppose you do know that the providers set the price of their plans, not the government? Although, from what you’ve written, it seems not. FAIL again.

    Regurgitating Liars propaganda is not quoting a credible, knowledgeable, reliable source.

    Acquaint yourself with the facts, they don’t bite.

  120. Check out Turnbull’s expression. Agreed, Jane, he does not look happy.

    But how about Abbott’s expression? He seemed to be trying to look as if he understood what Turnbull was saying. A sort of intelligent Uriah Heap, with those hands metaphorically washing themselves clean of any responsibility for Turnbull’s Fraudband!

  121. genuine policy
    😯

    😆 😆 😆

    yes, I’d believe the contents of tweets on a hashtag over a policy from a party that brought us costings from a caterer 😆

  122. haha… tommie boy… so funny…. believing a twit over a well thought through policy… this proves that all on this bloat are just thickheaded -narrow-minded- uninformed – and stubborn to the point of Pyrrhic stupidity union wanna-be intellectuals…

  123. another thought bubble for you laddies and lassies… (not mine – but a great read)
    ————————-
    CONROY’S NBN A DRUNKEN THOUGHT BUBBLE

    When you think of something terrific to do when you’re pissed, don’t pretend it’s just as terrific when you’re sober.

    In 2008, Kevin Rudd and Stephen Conroy were enjoying a few after dinner wines in Qantas first class when Conroy came up with a crazy NBN idea.

    He drew a few diagrams on the back of an envelope. Kev squinted at it and told Conroy to go ahead. Kev has since given up drinking on Qantas.

    It would prove to be a very expensive absurdity, even for an ex Pom union buffoon like Conroy.

    His idea was simply this: Use the half-century old technology of glass fibre to deliver fast broadband to every house in Australia and then flog the system off to some rich bastard.

    The problem was that digging trenches to every house in Oz sounded easy with a belly-full of red.

    In reality it’s rapidly proving to be a nightmare and union buffoons with single digit IQs are averse to admitting they were pissed at the time.

    So, Aunty Dot and Uncle Arthur in Arden Street North Melbourne will have the same access to the same high-speed broadband as the iconic Children’s Hospital over the road.

    The trouble is that Uncle Arthur can’t figure out how email works yet and Aunty Dot would kill him if he forked out $7,000 for anything.

    Perhaps we should put ninety five billion in numbers so Conroy can understand the extent of his folly: $95,000,000,000,000.00.

    Now that’s just a bunch of noughts to Conroy but to us it’s our grandchildren’s taxing interest payments.

    When you see Conroy, Gillard and Independents all cheering and pressing a big orange NBN button with lights flashing everywhere and nothing connected to bloody anything, then you know you are in the process of being conned.

    And those who promised to prop up Gillard are naturally first cabs off the rank.

    Take-up rates in the first part of Australia to get the NBN is flatlining, with just over 100 extra “customers” signing up over the past year.

    The whole drunken thought bubble of a project is going backwards at terabyte speed.

    Of the very first Tasmanian towns to get the NBN (Smithton, Scottsdale and Midway Point) 702 premises had signed up out of a possible 3,987 that were passed by the network.

    The fact is that hard glass to the node allows those who want, or need, such high-speed broadband to access it. But to connect hard glass to every single house where it may not be needed or wanted is lunacy only Labor is capable of.

    Anyway if you think that Conroy’s “glass fibre to the premises” won’t be obsolete by his completion date of 2021 (more likely 2051) then you better have a quick look at this:

  124. Even the most compressed 4K video requires at least 20Mbps of bandwidth, so the Coalition’s plans for a minimum of 25Mbps is severely lacking after network overheads are taken into account. The only way users on FTTN will receive 4K video is to utilise a dedicated connection to pay TV providers, meaning OTT providers are left out in the cold.

    Essentially this policy ignores future needs of Australian consumers and business in favour of end-of-life technologies. Utilising such technologies ensures the control of media in Australia is maintained by the likes of Murdoch and his ilk.

    If voters can take anything away from today’s policy announcement it’s this: the Coalition do not want to see Australia’s telecommunication network progress, but merely want to waste $30b delivering what’s there now to sell it off to the people who screwed up the network in the first place..”

    http://australiansforhonestpolitics.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/coalitions-nbn-plan-to-stop-consumers-taking-control-of-media/#comments

  125. Dirk, if the NBN was thought up the way you say, I must say they came up with a good scheme indeed. Trouble is, that is not to they way it happened.

    Yes, with the NBN, we get world beating technology that will serve us for at least the next fifty years. Even Turnbull acknowledge today that their scheme would only last a decade at the most. He seemed to think that was good value. Cannot see how, because then they will have to move to what Labor is putting in place today.

    It says something when Murdochs men help with the launch today. The only one that will suffer from fibre to the premise is Murdoch. Yes, it will in the long run decimate his TV coverage. Cables or those dishes on the roof will no longer be needed. Not too sure how valuable the bandwidth they have today will be.

  126. patricia, do you think he’s finally realised how stupid he has been to hitch his star to Liealot?

    scaper Turnbull has cold feet.

    So dirkwhacker has dug up his aunty & uncle dork to try to convince people that dial up is good enough for them and that ultra fast broadband is only for their betters, the wealthy.

    Then he goes on to reveal his true mind boggling ignorance by trying to convince us that fibre is actually buried windows.

    An optical fiber (or optical fibre) is a flexible, transparent fiber made of glass (silica) or plastic, slightly thicker than a human hair. It functions as a waveguide, or “light pipe”,[1] to transmit light between the two ends of the fiber.[2] The field of applied science and engineering concerned with the design and application of optical fibers is known as fiber optics. Optical fibers are widely used in fiber-optic communications, which permits transmission over longer distances and at higher bandwidths (data rates) than other forms of communication

    That’s what is being used for the NBN roll out you twat.

    The only thing that will be obsolete well before 2021 is Liealot’s idiotic el cheapo plan from the Reject Shop. It’s obsolete now, let alone in 50+ years’ time.

    I tell you what, when Korea, Germany the US and all the other countries installing fibre endorse LIealot’s plan by switching to it, I’ll believe the bullshit you keep peddling.

    In fact, why don’t you offer to tear over to all these misguided countries and tell them about Liealot’s plan and see how many agree to abandon their plans.

    WRT economics, inform yourself before you look more stupid.

  127. Dirk, hows it, …. hope your doing well… remember that you only go around once….. anyhoo, have a nice life and try to be kind to others… and yourself ….. cheers *clink* and *scroll* 🙄

  128. The “policy” has been rightly pilloried by almost all knowledgeable commentators today, both from a technical and an economic perspective.

    To paraphrase, the policy is no more than spending $30b to build basically what was obsolete at least five years ago, only to have to come back in the next decade and spent twice as much to build what the government plan is providing now.

    Neo-cons like to talk about opportunity cost – what business opportunities will be missed forever because the infrastructure wasn’t in place in a timely manner?

    Also glossed over is the built-in inequity of higher costs for rural and regional areas. This is one chance we have to ease other infrastructure costs, by decentralising and reversing the population flow flood into the capital cities…

  129. At one time, fibre was a waste, and we could get the same results from wireless. Why, all of a sudden, has the opposition abandoned all of their previous rhetoric about wireless and have now jumped on the fibre = good (for those lucky enough to get it).

    If they were true to their convictions, the new plan would have wireless to the node, and copper from there on.

    I would like to see them answer that, after all of the bullshit stories the have been pushed by their msm without questioning the veracity of that argument. Or perhaps a supporter of the previous arguments about wireless being just as good come out and explain why the libs are running fibre to the node rather than wireless to the node.

    Were they lying to us all this time, and now expect us to forget this? Labor need to launch a MAJOR campaign into this attempted deception of the voting public.

  130. If they were true to their convictions, the new plan would have wireless to the node, and copper from there on.

    How much would it cost to break all the contracts??

    If you want to talk about dishonesty look no further than Labors 2007 election promise. Broadband with govt support of $4.7B and completed in 5 years which means it should be finished by now.

  131. How much would it cost to break all the contracts?

    What contracts? If, as you seem to be implying, the contracts are to deliver the entire existing NBN proposal, then they are already breaking them by not running it to the premise.

    No, they need to come up with a far better excuse than that, as it doesn’t stand up to even the most cursory inspection.

    I also see that their plan involves Telstra GIVING them their remaining copper 😯

    😆

    Opposition Communication spokesman Malcolm Turnbull told 7.30 last night that the Coalition does not expect to have to pay Telstra to acquire its copper network, which would be decommissioned under Labor’s plan.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-10/coalition-expects-telstra-to-hand-over-copper-network/4619594

    Yea, right, the oppositions plan has just given Telstras copper value again. Far more than it is actually worth now, because it has become a necessity for their plan. They aren’t going to just hand it over.

  132. keep at ‘em Neil

    Yes, we need to highlight the complete and utter capitulation to reality that this is by the libs.

    Fibre != Wireless.

  133. For the last six years the Lying Liberals have sulked, spat the dummy, spun 24/7, chanted slogans, lied and conspired among themselves and supporters to bring down the government.

    Scarcely any effort has gone into developing policies. Lazy, arrogant, with an overblown entitlement mentality. That’s how they end up with lemons like their disgraceful fraudband proposal.

    Here’s another example of their laziness and dereliction of duty. Referring to their so-called ‘Real Solutions’ plan…

    …The last of the 50 promises is to restore ”proper” funding of the Australian War Memorial – an extra $5 million. The promise is dated February 2011. The Labor government four months later allocated an extra $10 million for the War Memorial in its budget.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/abbotts-paper-armour-20130330-2h0dg.html

    LNP: Lies Not Policies

  134. A small recap for the true deceivers

    Turnbull agrees with Alan Jones: Wireless is NBN future
    http://delimiter.com.au/2013/04/04/turnbull-agrees-with-alan-jones-wireless-is-nbn-future/

    That has changed in only 6 short days. Interesting.

    the internet is “going wireless”.

    http://nbnmyths.wordpress.com/malcolms-myths/

    The person the opposition have in charge of their ‘technology’, apart from having real issue with emails , doesn’t understand the difference between a network and a device.

  135. Scarcely any effort has gone into developing policies

    And when they finally do get around to releasing one, they ignore all of the ‘facts’ they have been sprouting out for the past several years, and go with what is basically Labors plan, but removing the fairness from the lower socioeconomic regions and the country, along with re-opening the pandoras box of a Telstra monolith, which could end up costing, oh, lets grab a number that starts with ‘N’ and has ‘B’ so we can get an easy N.B.Network front page, $90 BILLION

    An easy number to get when all you want to do is make it rhyme.

  136. Tom you’re EDITED….
    Cuppa you’re a EDITED – just like the labor party stealing ideas from the liberal policy plans…..

    *Edited due to personal abuse (Min)

  137. Tom you’re dumber than I thought….

    That could be true, although, it is hard to determine, as no baseline is mentioned. I’ll assume Dennis Ritchie 😉

    Of course, you could elaborate on precisely WHY you came to this conclusion, or, you could just troll.

  138. Dirk, how about rather than resorting to personal abuse (a liar etc) you avail yourself of the opportunity of being on this blog to present your argument backed up with facts.

  139. I suspect many more would be concerned about getting an expensive and wasteful form of broadband,that is much slower, will be built over two terms, does not reach anywhere near as many people and will cost more in the bush than city, than they are about a few refugees comingto this country by boat.

    Suspect they are more are conerned about 475 visa’s being abuse and taking their jobs.

    Yes, most want something done about the present way of dealing with those who by boat. The present situation is far from being caring and fair. In fact, it is crueler that the Howard years.

    Only fools would believe that Mr. Abbott has any answers.

    I suspect many believe that Abbott and his cronies, and those who follow him,, meet each boat arrival with glee. They are happy with the way things are. I noticed yesterday that Mr. Morrison did not appearto have much notice taken of him, and his affected outrage. Just does not ring true.

    The news seemed to be about the wonderful success and vision of our PM in China.

    The lady was treated with great respect there. In fact that is always the way when she travels.

    We need to remember, the new Chinese leader knows Australia well. Has visited here many times over the years. Seem to have visited all parts of this country. Suspect he understands Australian politics well.

    Also suspect he does not see the present PM as a lame duck leader.

    Dirk,,go haunt another siter, you are wasting your time here.

    Cory will have to find some with a little talent, even to get a look in here.

  140. I’d love to Min…. and thanks for the invite… but every time I do… and gosh I’ve done so… you lot just nullify and troll your lives away… so now it’s a bit of fun for me…
    🙂

  141. present your argument backed up with facts.

    Because he realises that the libs have been exposed as shonks for their statements over the past several years, and facts will not save them now, only expose them.

    Although, I’m just assuming he realises that. Perhaps he is something more than I thought

  142. Only fools would believe that Mr. Abbott has any answers.

    Tony Abbott’s Plan

    Real Problems for All Australians

  143. so now it’s a bit of fun for me

    Oops, I underestimated, apparently, the libs being exposed as shonks and shysters is just ‘a bit of fun’.

    I AGREE! the rabble the libs have become is laughable 😆

  144. MORE FUN

    A new Twitter hashtag – ”fraudband” – is being used to aggregate mockery of the Coalition’s NBN. By Wednesday morning a new ”fraudband” message was appearing on Twitter every minute.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/twitterati-cry-foul-over-fraudband-20130410-2hkdq.html#ixzz2Q1EJLdXx

    Even the ‘twits’ (er, hashtags) are enjoying thmselves

    Again, for dirks amusement

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23fraudband&src=hash

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

  145. Nope.. … you guys are not worth it … you’re part of the problem … not part of the solution

  146. you’re part of the problem

    If you think pointing out how much the liberals have lied to the electorate over the past few years to be a problem, THEN I’M PART OF IT 🙂

  147. This is it in a nutshell..spend $30 billion for something that is likely to be inadequate. Hands up whose can remember when a computer with MEGAbytes was BIG.. If the Libs believe that technology is going to slow down..wrong.

    Many technology experts argue that while the Coalition’s policy will be adequate in the short term, it may not last the decades that would justify spending nearly $30 billion.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/twitterati-cry-foul-over-fraudband-20130410-2hkdq.html#ixzz2Q1I6Ou86

  148. I don’t think dirk and most of it’s troll brethren are actually real people – more like one of a number of “managed persona” probably, in it’s case by Bernardi et.al, on behalf of the lnp.
    A bit far-fetched? Here’s a bit of HISTORY
    George Monbiot HAS A BIT TO SAY too,

    Emails obtained by political hackers from a US cyber-security firm called HBGary Federal suggest that a remarkable technological armoury is being deployed to drown out the voices of real people.

    As the Daily Kos has reported, the emails show that:

    • Companies now use “persona management software”, which multiplies the efforts of each astroturfer, creating the impression that there’s major support for what a corporation or government is trying to do.

    • This software creates all the online furniture a real person would possess: a name, email accounts, web pages and social media. In other words, it automatically generates what look like authentic profiles, making it hard to tell the difference between a virtual robot and a real commentator.

    • Fake accounts can be kept updated by automatically reposting or linking to content generated elsewhere, reinforcing the impression that the account holders are real and active.

    • Human astroturfers can then be assigned these “pre-aged” accounts to create a back story, suggesting that they’ve been busy linking and retweeting for months. No one would suspect that they came onto the scene for the first time a moment ago, for the sole purpose of attacking an article on climate science or arguing against new controls on salt in junk food.

  149. 😳 sorry for wandering OT. 🙄 Delete if you like, I’ll repost on the correct thread.
    “Fraudband” policy launch seems pretty much of a disaster, 😆

  150. Pterosaur, you’ll do. 😉

    Big disaster I’d say. There have been enough bargain basement disasters..people want the best available not just something 2nd rate and just because it’s cheaper.

  151. Min, in the long term it is not cheaper. Even to get to the slower speeds, they are proposing two stages, over two terms. They are aiming for lower numberof people.

    All this to save two years.

    As for cost, we are talking about averaging that out over eigth years. For most of the final lap, the NBNCo will be earning money, paying for the installations as they go.

    It was said this morning, that the Turnbull scheme expects to run at a lost. We nopt hearing about upload speeds at all.

  152. We’re all committed lefties around here, but I like to think of tech savvy teenagers like ours all across the country giving their parents a hard time if they look like voting LNP in September!

  153. Patricia, I wonder what some expect to see and hear on a leftwing site.

    Wonder why they think it is fun.

    The one thing they never do, is put forward an argument that supports their stance.

    I believe they are only interested in being spolilers,like their infamous leader.

    Cory will have to do much better.

  154. That deceitful Dirk’s despicable response – “LOVO… banter and god [sic] ol’ facts are allowed here… but can you keep lies to yourself… the incompetents of labour [sic] have not paid for ONE electronic board under the BER…. stop lying for crying out loud… it’s enough we have the redhead and her ministers lying throught [sic] their teeth” – to LOVO’s comment lauding the fantastic facilities installed in his son’s HS under the BER scheme, really riled me. Think it was dreadful that he should be allowed to, so blatantly, call another poster an out & out liar without any retribution.

    Why he wasn’t turfed out after that I’ll never know.

  155. Why he wasn’t turfed out after that I’ll never know.

    Probably because every village needs an idiot Joy, and Dirk is competing with Neil for the position. Who do you think is winning? 😆 😆

  156. That Vectoring that Turnbull is spruiking, is untested technology

    It’s close Fu, but still VERY limited in comparison to fibre. To get speeds of 100Mbps or more, they need to use “pair bonding” (two pairs of wires, not just one) as well as their vectoring machinery (which is bit like noise cancelling headphones, but for copper telephone lines).

    Telstra is having problems finding enough working pairs to provide one pair per customer, let alone doubling that for VDSL2+

    Of course there are still a couple of elephants in the room, even when you double the number of wires and add extra circuitry to cancel noise (cross-talk). The distance is still limited to 300-400 metres – it drops off VERY rapidly after that. The Lieberal plan was talking about having “nodes” with a distance of about 1000 metres from homes…

    The other one is the speeds they’re talking – they’ve pretty well maxed out what they can achieve with copper. Fibre STARTS at 100Mbps and is already commercially capable of providing 1Gbps.

  157. I see Joy is back. I am still waiting for Joy to admit that Abbott did not introduce the international method for determining employment. Joy actually introduced a new variation. It is usually John Howard who get mentioned as the man who introduced the one hour work/week as the definition of employed. This time it was Abbott/Abbott/Abbott.

  158. [audio src="http://www.sounddogs.com/sound-effects/2193/mp3/219020_SOUNDDOGS__be.mp3" /]
    😆 😆

  159. Abbott did not introduce the international method for determining employment

    No, from memory, it was Keating. Although, to be fair, he just kept Australia applying the International Method, the International Method changed, and it never should have been.

  160. It was neither of them Tom, but Abbott is still a lying toerag, attempting to become as adept at lying as his mentor JWH…

    [audio src="http://www.sounddogs.com/sound-effects/2193/mp3/219020_SOUNDDOGS__be.mp3" /]

  161. Suppose you are right Bacchus but it does bring the standard of blogs such as these down to the level of their baseness with their crass non-contributing posts maligning all & sundry without basis. Think it is a deadheat between NoS & Dirk for the title of Chief Idiot. Maybe a photo finish is in order.

    What do you mean “Joy is back” NoS? Think you will find I was the second poster here even before dunderhead Dirk plastered his first lot of mindless graffiti on the wall. So what you are NOW saying is that Howard introduced the one hour a week fiddle of the employment stats & NOT his “worthy” Employment etc Minister Abbott? Make your mind up. Your persistence in carrying on like a tool about this reminds me of a similar idiot, reb. Sure you aren’t he?

  162. … and what about the lying fraternity that’s sucking our tax dollars for the past 6 years bacchus… you do have an uncanny ability to see the world through your union/labor-tinted glasses… about time you took them off….

  163. I can remember being angered upon hearing about the employment stats fiddle of one hour pw being considered employment & at the time it was when Abbott was Employment Minister.

  164. I have read a fair bit in the papers today of claims that ‘technology’ experts are largely behind the #fraudband ‘policy’. Funny, I haven’t heard one good mention from any of them?

    Here’s an example of what they are actually saying, not what ltdnews wants the pundits to think they are saying

    Mark Gregory, a senior lecturer in electrical and computer engineering at RMIT, says the Coalition would be spending $30 billion on a one megabit per second average increase in internet speed.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-09/experts-criticise-coalitions-internet-plan/4619506

  165. “So what you are NOW saying is that Howard introduced the one hour a week fiddle of the employment stats & NOT his “worthy” Employment etc Minister Abbott? ”

    Can’t you read English?? It was neither of them.

    On leftoid blogs Howard usually gets the blame/credit but it is a definition that goes back a long time. It is an attempt to smear Howard/Abbott for something they did not do and to try and makes Howards low unemployment seem less impressive.

    Man you leftoids are thick. It is an International method for determining employment.

  166. Joy Joy Joy…. you will not be your name when you realize it’s actually a socialist employment statistics fiddle… not the liberals … the liberals don’t need to fiddle with the numbers as they consistently CREATE REAL EMPLOYMENT …. that’s different from the ‘job creation’ joke that the labor dummies have by employing mates and mates of mates (ie you lot here on this bloggie) in government employment…. incestuous… (see if you can think far enough to understand the meaning of that Joysie)….

  167. Since yesterday, the Fairfax online news has been leading with various headline versions of, “Experts Agree: Liberal NBN plan a ‘lemon'”.

    The articles go on to then quote one (yep, only one) ex-Telstra employee who described the Turnbull plan as a ‘lemon’ and a ‘nonsense’. Not more than one expert, but just one, quoted as saying that.

    The article would be fairer, and more accurate, to simply admit we found a mate of a mate, who’s a lefty, to slag the Liberal NBN plan.

    The article failed to give some history, scrutiny and accountability behind the NBN. Just broad-brush political statements, straight out of the ‘Conroy Handbook For Media Approved Information’, with no detail.

    The initial 2007 Conroy plan was to deliver just 12 megabytes per second (mbps), for around $5 billion, fibre to the node, with no detail.

    Realising it couldn’t be justified in terms of speed or return, Conroy updated in 2009 to fibre to the home, 100mbps and nearer to $40 billion, with no cost benefit analysis and no due diligence.

    It’s now behind schedule, budget overblown to almost double, screw-ups causing a doubling-up of work, appalling take-up rate, being unaffordable for most residents.

    Who really needs super-fast broadband with the ability to deliver ‘medical files in minutes’ (proudly boasted by Conroy), if you aren’t a hospital? If that’s his justification, then hook the hospitals up to super fast broadband, and connect the rest of the country up to the speeds that suffice for their domestic needs.
    That’s what Turnbull offers.

    Why supply everyone with a Ferrari if most people live in a 60 kmh residential speed zone, when most only need a Commodore, or a Toyota?
    Conroy is looking for a legacy. That’s why.

    But we, and our kids, will be paying off the Conroy Custom Ferrari for decades. By the time Conroy’s custom Ferrari is built, it will be superseded by a wireless flying spaceship.

    Turnbull’s plan uses existing networks, which has proven to be excellent, more-than-enough speed in the UK, the US and other OECD countries, with which we trade, compete and compare to.
    There’s far more detail in the Turnbull plan which delivers more flexibility, more options, more savings and more practical savings to the average user. The consumer chooses the plan they want or need, not the one forced upon them by the Government.

    Conroy’s plan is secretive, sparse in detail, lacking independent auditing, expensive, over budget, behind time and superfluous for most, and let’s not forget, devised on the back of an air sick bag on a plane with Rudd.
    Turnbull’s plan is designed to benefit firstly those who do not have adequate internet. It’s a plan that is designed for the market.

    Conroy’s is designed for Conroy’s ego. And if his ego gets any bigger they’ll have to customise a pair of red undies to sit on his head while he’s driving his antiquated custom red Ferrari.

    From another biased reporter …

  168. The initial 2007 Conroy plan was to deliver just 12 megabytes per second (mbps), for around $5 billion, fibre to the node, with no detail.”

    I think this policy was a lie by Labor to help win the election.

  169. The following is a clear and concise comment made on the Hoopla site by Sam B that I want to share here. I think it makes a lot of sense.

    I’m a front line worker in the telecommunications industry. I get my hands dirty every day pulling joints out of pits and chasing faults up and down streets. I don’t claim to be an expert on all things telecomms but I know enough to very confidently state the LNP plan is a great big steaming pile.

    I see the state the copper network is in every day. The speed claims by Mr Turnbull are laughable. Unless you live within spitting distance of a cabinet (100-200m tops) you will not get anything approaching 50Mb/s, likely not even 25Mb/s. The attenuation (drop in signal strength i.e. data speed over distance) with copper is massive and exponential. With fibre it isn’t. High powered fibre transmissions are now being shot hundreds of kilometres with no need for regeneration.

    The existing copper network will not support what the LNP are claiming. It is passed its use by date. The maintenance alone to keep the copper propped up will be many hundreds of millions of dollars a year, likely close to a billion. On-going, so long as there is copper. The rectification work to bring the network up to scratch will cost billions.

    Then there’s the environmental side of things. The NBN distribution cabinets (FDH’s – Fibre Distribution Hubs) are smaller, far less obtrusive and they are passive – there is no power in the cabinets because there is no equipment that requires power. They will also be spaced further apart because signals over fibre hold their integrity over far longer distances. The cabinets required by the LNP plan will have to be installed no more than several hundred metres apart, they are at least 6-8 times the size of the FDH’s and they are active – they need power. The incoming data feeds to the cabinets will be fibre. Optical to electrical conversion equipment will be needed to convert the signals back and forth to connect the fibre to the copper, and vice versa. These cabinets will also have fan banks to draw the heat out, and the cabinets will need batteries in case the power fails. The conversion equipment and the batteries will require ongoing maintenance. At worst the passive splitters in the FDH’s will need a clean every now and then if dust gets in. That’s it. A clean.

    The LNP plan is outdated, using outdated technology. Labor’s NBN is about future proofing this country, it is about getting infrastructure in place now for all Australians (not just those who can afford it) so when we run out of things to dig up and sell to Asia we’ll have something to fall back on. That something will be the most comprehensive telecommunications infrastructure project ever undertaken in the world.

    Australia has a massive chance here to show the world how its done. Will it be done perfectly? No. Will it be on time and on budget? Highly unlikely. But it’s still something we need. The LNP’s plan isn’t. They will throw away billions for nothing – an already obsolete technology.

    We need to do this once and do it right. It’ll be expensive but the true gains will come from applications that haven’t even been invented yet.

  170. I think this policy was a lie by Labor to help win the election.

    You can think what you like, but it is also true that they took the current NBN to the last election, and won with that.

    They also did try the cheaper alternative, but Telstra proved to be too difficult to crack. The libs haven’t learnt that.

  171. “You do it once, you do it right, and you do it with fibre.”

    Tony Windsor

    The Coalition has announced an alternative NBN policy that amounts to a return of the city/bush telecommunications divide.

    The main difference between the plans of the two parties is that Labor’s NBN is replacing the decaying old copper network with fibre optic cable, laid all the way to the premises (FTTP), while the Coalition alternative would lay fibre to the node (FTTN), and then use the copper network to travel the final distance to the home.

    The Coalition says their alternative would be cheaper (a total cost of around $30 billion compared to the NBN’s total cost of around $44 billion) and quicker to build (a finish date of 2019 compared to 2021).

    But broadband speeds would be about a quarter of that available on the NBN. While such speeds may suit many people today, what about tomorrow?

    Many of the NBN’s benefits would be lost. Take Aged Care for example. If the package of technologies enabled by high-speed broadband can keep 5% of elderly people in their homes for just one extra year, Australia could save $60 billion over ten years on aged care facilities ($4 billion a year in bed operating costs and $20 billion in capital costs). These savings alone would more than pay for the NBN.

    There are also questions about the cost under the Coalition plan of having to continue maintaining last century’s copper network, which has been estimated at $1 billion a year.

    The Coalition plan would abolish uniform wholesale pricing, which was a feature of my agreement with Labor at the formation of government in 2010. Uniform wholesale pricing means you pay the same price for the same broadband service, whether you live in Bourke or the Sydney CBD. So once again, under the Coalition alternative, country people would come off second-best.

  172. Tommie… WRONG – AGAIN…. they did not win that election. They tied with the coalition, but labor lied and bribed their way in and they sold Australia out – just to be able to get a guaranteed government pension … unforgivable… and rather interesting that many on these so-called ‘intellectual’ websites don’t get that… it amazes me that you guys use your intellect to perpetuate a set of lies and cheats… but maybe you do that because you too get benefits out of it… and you can’t bite the hand that feeds you…

  173. Neil, Conroy went down to calling tenders. Trouble is, as Howard faond out there was no takers. Yes, Hpward was not willing to curb the power of Telstra , which should have occurred when Telstra was sold off.

    I believe 17 attempts of the Coalition and I of Labor, was enough proof that the crapped out copper wire was not up to the job.

    For Turnbull to deliver the second phrase of theior promise yesterday, which is to occur in their second term, relies on technology, that is still has not been proven.

  174. they did not win that election

    And here I was thinking to winner goes the spoils. Since one is in Government (the Winner), and one is opposition (the loser), then it is clear we have a Winner.

    A tie is when you go back and play again. And yet you call me stupid 😆

  175. Shucks, I’m certain that I saw the Governor General swear everyone in..here’s me thinking that was because they won the election…

  176. Min, not only won, but are still in power over two and half years later.

    I believe that was a Labor PM I saw being feted in China last night. An honour, they say, that has not benn given to any previous PM.

    The only one that has never accepted that fact, is the leader of the Opposition. If one does not know when they have lost, one wonders how they have the judgement or ability to rule, if they won.

  177. Fed up, the simple explanation was that the PM had superior negotiating skills to Abbott. Windsor stated two things: the NBN and that Labor was far more likely to run a full term than Abbott’s Liberals. Abbott had already stated that if he gained the support of the Indies that the next step was to procure to have a DD election. That’s the same as saying, I want your support but I intend to offload you as an influence at the first available opportunity.

  178. wrong again… gosh… what is it with you lot… (Min… you’re sooooooo funny)….

    There is a difference between supposed ‘superior negotiation skills’… .and selling the farm lock stock and barrel… promising here and there… bribing (something most labor/unionists are very familiar with)… so there is a fair win…. and there is unfair ‘winning’ …. Abbott didn’t ‘negotiate well enough’ .. he just wasn’t willing to jeopardize the future of Australia… (anybody read about the new wave of redundancies taking place in Australia this week… and don’t forget to blame EVERYTHING on the GFC and the strong dollar…. economic illiterates that most of you are)…

    Labor doesn’t care about all that… they just (foam at the lip stuff) want power… if you look at the ‘leadership joke’ within that pathetic party – you’ll know enough…

  179. FMD 😯 The village idiot is projecting as well as any Liberal I”ve seen. “Unfair wins” waaa waaa waaa waaa waaa waaa- we wuz robbed. Fck the constitution. Fck the elected representatives.

    Tony should have sold his @#$3 to the independents. $1b for a hospital here, whatever you want there… wah wah wah…

    Tony didn’t negotiate well enough – the independents wanted a real NBN, not some mickey mouse waste of money. They wanted the parliament as elected by the voters to run its term, not another election. They wanted real infrastructure, not vague, empty promises of new hospitals in Tasmania …

    The true “economic illiterate” on this site should perhaps have a look at the BISONs over the last 5 years….. and then weep deeply 😆

  180. Well done Neil.

    bacchus, oh bacchus… the independents sold out the mandate from their conservative’ electorates … people are seething over there and cannot wait to vote the spineless ego-driven loudmouths out of their towns….

    labor down to 30 seats… I think that’s 29 too many… but bring it on !!!!

  181. Dirk and Neil are certainly enjoying their ‘shift(s)’…….I ‘mostly *scroll* Neil, his round and round set piece(s)….. are well known…. standard formula shit….. *yawn*
    But Dirk…. Dirk should have his ‘own’ show…… he’s that good/bad…… Dirk serves as a good/bad example of why we are lefties…… I mean seriously, who in their left mind would want to be that odd little fellow…….. ideological inane comes to mind…. Dirk we so get you 😉 ….. your funny 😕 ….. you should have your ‘own’ show…….. you are ‘such’ the ‘perfect’ example of how not to be……. keep up the good work, we need examples such as your good self to act as ‘showcases’ to the good visitors here……… Thanks, Dirk……… na, really 😀

  182. LOVO … now I get your name… you make me feel so good… like Ronda …

    Thank God the Liberals pay me so much money to listen to the dribble and the projection that leaks of these pages… Tony… I need a payrise !!!!

  183. A little off topic, but still relevant in that the Libs are yet to provide any direction regarding education except that Pyne has stated that class sizes don’t matter and that he intends to sack a lot of teachers..we have..

    Twice as many students at public schools come from low-income families as from high-income ones, a dramatic shift from 25 years ago when the make-up was more equal.

    And..

    The report by Barbara Preston Research says government schools had a nearly equal share of students from high- and low-income families in 1986. But by 2011 the proportion of public school students from low-income families was almost double the share from high-income ones.

    ”It’s time the private schools authorities recognised funding must be directed to address disadvantage,” AEU federal president Angelo Gavrielatos said.

    But Independent Education Union federal secretary Chris Watt echoed concerns about ”the quality of the data that will be used to underpin any new funding model” and said he was worried about his members’ job security and workload if schools that did not receive funding increases were also expected to compile more information as part of expanded reporting requirements.

    The response from the IEU is revealing..private schools are worried about “job security and workloads” yet Pyne would sack umpteen public school teachers – the ones who now have the majority of the “workload” regarding children with disadvantaged backgrounds. Class warfare anyone?

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/public-schools-serve-growing-numbers-of-disadvantaged-20130410-2hlu0.html#ixzz2Q5lTmrei

  184. Time for some humour, and the Libs’ broadband interweb thingy plan is certainly that..by Blunt Instrument:

    The Opposition Leader promised today that every Australian household would receive a free floppy disk drive and monochrome monitor under an Abbott-led government. Launching the Coalition’s long awaited response to the government’s National Broadband Network program, Mr Abbott denied that providing a floppy drive and monitor without the computing box to plug them into would leave Australian households with a second best solution.

    “If people want that extra functionality,” he said, “they can spend a few thousand dollars to upgrade to a very fast 386 or even 486 computing box.”

    When asked by Leigh Sales what a ‘386 computing box’ was, he admitted he wasn’t “across the brief” but, “Here’s everyone’s favorite! The interweb’s Malcolm Turnbull!”

    And..

    Reaction to the announcement was generally positive in the News Limited press, where news that the NBN would not be able to compete with Telstra was hailed as ‘excellent’ by major shareholder and noted Sith Lord, Rupert Murdoch.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/blogs/blunt-instrument/free-floppies-a-policy-flop-20130410-2hldq.html#ixzz2Q5qWsr8S

  185. yes… inni-minni-myni-mo … just keep on dividing australia up… left vs right…. blue versus green… women vs men …. old vs young… working vs non-working…. religion vs non-religion….. you’re doing so well… you’ve nearly carved this country to pieces…

    Oh … no… you forgot one thing….
    BLAME THE LIBERALS….
    and one more…
    blame abbott… for everything….
    he wh ois the only hope for australia at this stage …. (Howard and Costello coming close seconds and thirds…. ) Julia coming 20 millioneth…. and then some….

    Good morning

  186. The latest idiocy to come out of the Coalitions broadband policy.

    The haven’t costed in the Telstra copper network that will be the backbone of their broadband because they don’t expect Telstra will charge them for it.

    Yep, they expect Telstra to give them the copper network for nothing.

    Their previous stupidity.

    The costings of their broadband network won’t be in the budget because it is infrastructure investment.

    Yep folks, the very same thing that the government said when they didn’t put the NBN costs into the budget and the opposition then spend weeks in parliament and in the media criticising and shouting how corrupt the government is in trying to pull the wool over the people’s eyes.

    Yet more examples of both their lying and hypocrisy.

  187. Goodness, I am doing a good job aren’t I..and here was I thinking that it was all about creating equality of opportunity irrespective of one’s socio-economic background.

    No, I’m not blaming the Liberals I am observing their statements about their intentions regarding education. Their intentions have been stated clearly by Christopher Pyne – increase class sizes, reduce funding and sack teachers. As a former teacher, I know how long and hard teachers have fought for reduced class sizes, not for their own benefit but to enable more 1 on 1 teaching for the benefit of the children in their care. The Liberals have stated specifically that “class sizes don’t matter”..go tell that to a teacher or a parent or a child in an overcrowded classroom.

  188. And yet more utter lunacy from the Coalition according to The Australian.

    They have stated that the NBN management is the wrong one and have no faith in it, no surprise there, they will do whole sale sackings of current management across the board and put in theirs and their controllers toadies.

    So their plan is to hand over management NBN to a Chinese company, a Chinese government controlled company at that.

    Howard handed over our critical satellite communications that was vital for security and defence to Singapore and Abbott plans to hand over management of our vital for security and defence broadband network to the Chinese.

    There seems to be no limit to the levels of idiocy Abbott’s rabble can reach.

  189. Who here is blaming the Liberals. Most here just seem to repeat what they say.

    As for their broadband plan, I did not see anywhere, where they expect it to begin earning money.

    One report said the wording indicated, they expect it to run at a lost.

    As for Pyne, he has said that there is nothing wrng with how education is now funded, and that they would continue with the present policy.

    Mr. Pyne has also said it is a myth, that the environment a child lives in, has anything to do with their ability to learn.

    I have followed him closely, and all he is offering is the status quo, and blame the teacher.

    Somehow, also, handing the responsibility back to community boards to run, is the way to go.

    Yes, and going back to teaching fundamentals. I believe it is many years since children were not taught phonetics. I think one, if they took the time to look at how their children are taught to read, Pyne is talking through his backside.

    Why do politicians believe they know more about teaching, than the teacher in the school.

  190. The costings of their broadband network won’t be in the budget because it is infrastructure investment.

    Yep folks, the very same thing that the government said

    Actually ME, I thought it was off budget because it was infrastructure that returned a profit. Labor were able to this because they would be the only company able to lease out access to ISP’s

    The libs proposal doesn’t do this. Telstra (and others) will still be able to control the mile of wires. This means, the returns cannot be guaranteed like the Labor plan is.

    It also exposes them to another of their repeated lies about keeping it off budget, and digs their black hole even deeper.

    So their plan is to hand over management NBN to a Chinese company

    That is stupidity of the highest order. I recall the outrage the libs spouted after the Chinese company (Huan ??) was not allowed to tender for the NBN work on security concerns, only to find out soon after that the Chinese were actually hacking American businesses with their technology.

  191. The Liberals are great at telling us, those on lower incomes, is good for us.

    Or at least what they consider, good enough.

    Yes, second class broadband and poorly funded schools is all we need.

  192. So dirkrossey, you are trying to tell me that you aren’t a product of persona management software? You can’t possibly be real.

  193. have you actually ever won an argument with anybody other than a 5 year old

    Hmm, that explains a lot. The parental control software obviously ‘aint working at your parents place 😉

  194. Just in case we’re looking for a few more Liberal policies…not that I blame them, just thought that I’d look at them. 🙂

  195. Ini-mini-myni-mo …. Some of them are correct… and as usual Minni-myni-mo a few at the end are your tiny mind making them up…. ‘abolish the FIRB’…. ‘eliminate parental leave scheme’ ….. ‘repeal the fairwork joke’ …..you guys are pathetic… putting some real stuff with fabricated… soon the KGB can learn from your distorting methods…

    Joyful… GOOD ONE…. at least you and I (I presume) have the balls to be real with our names… from that you can see that I’m indeed a Trolling Electronic Robot… beep beep… get out of the way… another boat coming to Australian mainland… another 13 million AUD wasted… (so far over 450 boats have come under the redhead’s incompetent ‘leaderlesship’).

  196. Ah the smell of condescension against female bloggers..it’s been done before you know.

    All the Liberal party statements are verifiable by a simple Google. Actually there should be a correction, the Department of Climate Change was abolished a few weeks ago, and as Michael stated a fact missed by Tony Abbott.

  197. Here’s an article on The Drum which appeared as a headliner this morning however it’s a bit hard to find now, so I thought to mention it.

    This fellow calls the winner as Turnbull..

    So why did Turnbull pwn the day?

    For a start, his message was delivered from a gleaming blue and chrome set at Foxtel that simply looked like the future – pressing more buttons than yet another shot of Conroy in hi-viz vest straddling a muddy trench.

    Ok, I’ve got that..because the set was a “gleaming blue and chrome one” and not only but also, it was at Foxtel then obviously the scheme is a winner…

    That’s why so much about the broadband policy debate comes down to belief – belief in the nation-building of publicly-funded infrastructure, or belief in financial prudence.

    The use of the words “financial prudence” is an odd one. It suggests that there is something to be gained by getting less by spending less. Financial prudence only happens if you obtain an approximate for less, not an inferior product for less.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4620350.html

  198. Yes, the Liberals are great at rejecting advice of experts, no matter what area they are found in.

    How does one explain their ability to endorse technically that is far from proven.

    I am thinking of the Vdsl or Veictoring, along with soils sesequation of carbon, and the capture of carbon emission from coal burning power houses.

    They see nothing wrong with basing their policies on this kind of science.

  199. and labor is great at manipulating their experts to give them the advice that they want… to me that’s criminal… but under labor of course that’s just one more step on the way to stalinistic totalitarian rule…

  200. Dirk, I suspect most here are more open in allowing their m names to appear than you are.

    Anyone, my dear boy can set up a misleading Facebook and other sites,.

    Prove you are who you say.

    Phone number and address on this site, might mean something.

    The other thing I cannot understand, why does knowing our name, makes any difference to what we have to say.

    Most here are open about having leftwing leanings when it comes to politics. Surely that is all that counts.

    Many have been very open about where they are coming from, many have shared many of their life’s experience.

  201. true on this site.. names or not doesn’t make a difference… and I like that… this site IS different and better than the DESTROY THE JOINT bumholes who are too scared to have a dialogue.. feminism gone wrong… Margaret Thatcher didn’t need to quote every fifteen seconds that she was a woman (unlike a redhead incompetent we have at our helm)…

    I will not do phone and address… sorry… you need to belief or not who I am… I belief you and I respect you and your beautiful family (thanks for explaining that the other day).

  202. Min, that department was dismantled as was planned. With the CEFC in place, it is no longer needed.

    Another annoyance that comes from the Liberals is when they talk about the stimulus spending. All that spending had ended dates which have long passed.

    The Liberals talk about the stimulation scheme, as if the spending is ongoing, and still occurring.

    One example is their condemnation of the planned phrasing out of laptops to high school kids. It always had a end by date. We can ignore that they were always against the policy anyway.

    The computer scheme has been replaced by direct payments, twice a year, of schoold kids grants. Yes, paid, before the parents spend the money. Not have to wait for your tax return, which was of greater value to higher income earners.

    This government has been tightly targeting welfare spending, aiming it at the areas of greatest need.

  203. One boat coming to the mainland, the first in many years. The Opposition now wants to spend up to 1.5 billion, t overcome the problem. Even then, their propositions will not be able to be put in place until 2016 at the earliest.

    Do we really need to spend that amount of money, to stop a few thousand refugees.

    Even the Coalition representing making the announcements, was unclear about what would happen, if they located any boats. It appears that nothing will be changed. They will still come to Australia.

    That boat in Geraldton did come from Sri Lanka. I thought the navy of that country was stopping boats.

    Has one noticed, that the Libs appear to be talking into the wind, when complaining about that last boat. I get the impression that no one cares.

    As one said this morning, those people will be on a plane back to Sri Lanka before the week is out.

  204. Most women I know are not into using feminine wiles to twist men around their fingers, as the iron lady was prone to do. Most women believe they are the equal ofr the males.

    No, the iron lady was never a feminism, never claimed to be, and was never recognized as one., The iron lady was firm in her belief, that she was better than those males within parliament.

    All our PM has done was to point out to the leader of the Opposition, that he used the tools of a mysgnotist to attack her and other women within the house. She went further, she listed the words and allegations that Abbott has used over the years. She pointed out the behavior of his that is beyond the pale.

    If that is using sexism, so be it.

  205. Fed Up … we’ve been through this before…. our PM abused the leader of the opposition minutes after supporting a true misogynistic to become the speaker of the parliament… and at easter she went on an easter hunt with another known misogynist… THAT hypocrisy seems to be lost on you and many others…

    The Iron Lady never – ever said in any of her speeches private or public that she even thought that she was better or the same as men or women. She just did the job. She didn’t have to get into the pants of all the women voters, something the australian PM has to do on every occasion to create more class division, a special recipe of the labor and union movements.

    and on the boatpeople…. Every boat that arrives has been costed to cost the australian taxpayer about 12 million AUD. Over 450 have arrived since the redhead knifed her leader in the back. She said she was going to dismantle the ‘business model’ of the smugglers… instead she’s enabled it with her incompetent ministerS of immigration.

    Jobless figures are tumbling down… which excuse are the labor incompetents going to use now ?

  206. Dirk, you can go through it as many times as you like. It will not change the facts.

    One fact is that many women across the globe immediately put their hands together, clapping and saying “about bloody time”. Watch as African very dark police say, “I watched not her but the Opposition leader. The look on his face said it all. The look of how dare you talk to me like that.”

    Whether you like it or not, you cannot refute that Abbott uses the words of an miscognist against all women in the house. The same occurs in the upper house, aimed mostly at senator Wrong.

    If he does not like what the PM has to say, I suggest he stops behaving like a JUVENILE PRICK.

    It matters not what you believe. It does matter as far as Abbott is concerned, what many women think.

    We are now seeing women in this country, in roles in the upper echelons of business, saying the PM is not getting a fair go, and it is because she is a woman.

    I assume many of these women would not be Labor supporters.

    Yes, we have been through it before, and you along with the Opposition leader still do not get it.

    Bringing out the missus and girls, only makes matters worse. I suspect their own polling has shown that, and the practice has been dropped.

  207. :faster and moire affordabely”

    Abbnott’s statement thatr made Turnbull flinch.

    He did not say affordable. Just listened twice.

  208. it’s scandalous that she can be hypocritical… and has a track record of sleeping with married men… and with fraudsters … and you KEEP on defending that piece of garbage….

    He is all class and above all the stupidity that dribbles out of her mouth and that of her cohorts….

    And if indeed you are concerned about the plight of women…. go and have a chat to all the muslims who treat women like garbage…. have you got the guts to go to that enclave of misogyny ? Didn’t think so….

    (and don’t forget to call me a racist from bringing up this topic… that’s what you guys are good at – deflection and not answering the real questions… just like your redhead incompetent…)

  209. Dirk, Gillard has also a thang for married women but that does not faze the people here. Nicki Savva nailed Gillard today in her article. Gillard hides behind her big top petticoat and is certainly no leader!

    Actually attending an IPA event at the Hilton tonight…us evil people always cook up a scheme at these events to ensure the fake redhead does not get clear air. Thanks to the Whisperers I’ve got a cracker of a strategy.

    The Climate Change department has not been abolished, it has merged with others and those people will be abolished from the public service payroll. Abbott made it quite clear at the IPA anniversary in Melbourne the other week.

  210. Dirk, those job figures have been predicting for months, In fact the last months figures were asurprise, because they came in better than expected.

    Yes, employment goes up and down.

    Yes, the high dollars have not been any help.

    Yes, the GFC is still having an effect in most countries.,

    Yes, we do live in an global economy.

    Yes, it was the expectation of of these unemployment figures that led the government not to go ahead with any more fiscal austerity to reach a surplus.

    Yes, there was a drop in the price of ore, that led to a drop in revenues.

    No need for excuses.

    Things are as the Treasure predicted.

    What do you believe the government could have done to turn things about?

  211. she’s an anti-leader… an example NOT to follow… hiding behind her gender and setting all the wrong examples… topping it up with utter incompetence in most things she does …

  212. haha… FedUp… you shold be called FedEx… you keep coming up with these silly excuses… we live in a global economy… and we’re doing EVERYTHING we can to make our products and services so expensive that any country in the world can produce them cheaper… why so ?

    Because of our taxes… our carbon tax… our union environment… our too high wages…

    the dollar is a minor reason for this… and could easily be bypassed through smart management from the leader of the country… but because we have a set of incompetents…

    What would I do… EXACTLY what Abbott prescribes… cancel this stupidity of a carbon tax… liberate the engine of the economy which is the SMEs… and bring the country back to surplus… He’ll show the way…

  213. 5000 people on boats in 99 days… great track record isn’t it…. great leadership from the incompetents at the top of our federal government…

    Bring on the election… NOW… we cannot cope with the incompetence any longer… Australia needs to be released from these dumbheads…

  214. Oh, when nothing else works, we are now back to the PM’s morals. Does one feel we have been here before, with many of those that no longer haunt this site.

    Sleeps with married men. I assume that the married men choose to sleep with her. Does it count, that they were separated the time.

    At least she done it out in the open,not like another leader I can think of at this time.

    Yes, our PM is not liked because of the prejudices of some. Gee, one cannot have an unmarried wpman, living in sin, childless PM who happens to be an atheist.

    Gee, her life style is similar to a great number of women today. Her private life is her own business.

  215. No, you will have to wait for that election.

    The PM has done as she promise, to go full term.

    Abbott with his bullying and the might of the MSM has not been able to bring her down.

  216. Wrong AGAIN… her private life is part of her public persona…. as it is with everybody in the public eye….

    She has NO character…. and yes her morals are deplorable…
    cannot be said of Abbott who is a class act… who would you want as your PM ?
    Unfortunately we have the one that is a moral incompetent…. no worries about the atheist and unmarried (which is not living in sin) …

    You need to learn to see things as they are and not as you want them to be… never too old to learn I guess

  217. and yes.. unfortunately we have to see australia being pulled further down the drain by this incompetent woman…. sad really…

  218. cannot be said of Abbott who is a class act

    😆

    abbotts words

    “If it’s true, Stavros, that men have more power generally speaking than women, is that a bad thing?”
    ..
    “but what if men are by physiology or temperament, more adapted to exercise authority or to issue command?”
    ..
    “Abortion is the easy way out.”
    ..
    “What the housewives of Australia need to understand as they do the ironing…”
    ..
    “If the Prime Minister wants to, politically speaking, make an honest woman of herself…”
    ..

    The Prime Minister’s words

    I was offended when the Leader of the Opposition stood next to a sign that described me as a man’s bitch. I was offended by those things. Misogyny, sexism, every day from this Leader of the Opposition. Every day in every way, across the time the Leader of the Opposition has sat in that chair and I’ve sat in this chair, that is all we have heard from him.

    And now, the Leader of the Opposition wants to be taken seriously, apparently he’s woken up after this track record and all of these statements, and he’s woken up and he’s gone “Oh dear, there’s this thing called sexism, oh my lords, there’s this thing called misogyny. Now who’s one of them? Oh, the Speaker must be because that suits my political purpose.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/transcript-of-julia-gillards-speech-20121010-27c36.html#ixzz2Q8FJpGjR

    Yea, classy, isn’t he.

    And, remember, it was abbott who started throwing around the ‘misogynist’ tag. The PM didn’t defend what Slipper had said or done, she highlighted the hypocrisy of one proven misogynist trying to pin those traits on another person. And, of course, our entire msm missed all that, didn’t even understand the ‘context’ in their pathetic attempts to shield ‘their boy’.

  219. unfortunately we have to see australia being pulled further down the drain by this incompetent woman

    I’m guessing you missed the China visit then. Not surprising. Envy of the world, again, and you call it ‘down the drain’

    PMSL

  220. Tom R, have you not noticed, the more this feisty and gutsy woman succeeds,. The louder and shriller they get.

    I believe Abbott and Co easy ride is coming to an end. They are all being asked questions, and pushed for answers.

    Whats mopre, Labor seems to have learnt how to manage the MSM.

    They seem to at last, getting the message across.

    Anyone would think that Abbott was a saint. I feel that they have a shock or two coming.

  221. Tommie…. stop putting words in my mouth….
    China is a nice ‘divertor’ from the immigration f*up… but not a bad thing to do… overdue… but not bad… (I’ve lived 13 years in china and think this is progress)….

    Don’t put word in my mouth again Tommie… all your words leave a bad taste… not needed now…

    Ohhh yeah Feduppie…. labor has learned how to manage MSM… haha… pull the other one… no- don’t….

    They tried to muzzle anybody who speaks against them… a la Stalin and others. FAILED!!!!!!

  222. Bias Against Female PM Replicated in Boardrooms Across Australia (Canberra)

    WEDNESDAY APRIL 10, 2013, 12:55 PM
    JASON SCOTT AND MATTHEW WINKLER
    ASSOCIATED PRESS

    (c) 2013, Bloomberg News.

    CANBERRA, Australia — Julia Gillard, Australia’s first female prime minister, contends with national media condescension that replicates sensibilities in the nation’s corporations, three leading women executives say.

    “The press do give Julia a hard time and I think probably harder than if there’d been a male in that position,” Pru Bennett, head of corporate governance in the Asia-Pacific for BlackRock, told the Bloomberg Australia Economic Summit in Sydney on Tuesday. “This has contributed to the current way voters are thinking.”

    Opposition supporters taunt Gillard because she has no children. Protesters at anti-government demonstrations have carried placards reading “Ditch the Witch.”

    Women represent only 9.2 percent of executives in the 500 biggest publicly listed companies in Australia, compared with 16.1 percent for the U.S. Fortune 500 Index, according to a government-commissioned report.

    In October last year, the prime minister stood up in Parliament and labeled opposition leader Tony Abbott a sexist and misogynist in a fiery speech that went viral on the Internet, garnering more than two million views on YouTube.

    “My immediate reaction was good on her and I’m amazed that she waited so long to snap and do that,” Fabienne Michaux, Standard & Poor’s chief credit officer for the Asia-Pacific, said at the summit. “It was a liberating moment. That was seen as a very big positive in a lot of places outside of Australia at the time and it really was a positive in respect to women, seeing Julia stand up like that.”

    Gillard, 51, who last month faced down the second challenge to her leadership of the Labor party in just over a year, told a forum in Sydney on Thursday that Australians were still getting used to having a female leader.

    “I am not a man in a suit, and I think that that has taken the nation some time to get used to,” she said. “It’s the same sort of journey that many other nations around the world are on, and it speaks really to the changing nature of our times, and the forward progress for women in societies like ours.”

    Gillard’s ruling Labor party is trailing Abbott’s Liberal-National coalition by 10 percentage points ahead of Sept. 14 elections, according to a Newspoll published in the Australian newspaper this week. Still, Gillard says she can win the election — which she has described as a contest between “a strong feisty woman” and a “policy-weak man.”

    http://www.northjersey.com/news/international/202347271_Bias_Against_Female_PM_Replicated_in_Boardrooms_Across_Australia__Canberra_.html

  223. Going to hell in a handbasket? Or thriving, contrary to what the NOalition would have you believe 🙄

    Hmmmm BISONs 😉

    Australia’s best economic fundamentals since 1964 😉

    RBA BISONs 😉

    IMF Investor Updates 😉

    The IMF recognises that Australia is one of only a small handful of advanced countries to have avoided recession during the global financial crisis and continues to project a solid outlook for the Australian economy. The Fund has reiterated its forecast of 3.25 per cent real GDP growth in Australia in 2012 and an average annual growth rate of 3.2 per cent to 2017 – faster than any major advanced economy.

    “Executive Directors commended the Australian authorities for their sound and prudent macroeconomic management, which had contributed to impressive growth, low unemployment, and subdued inflation,” the IMF report said.

  224. Don’t put word in my mouth again Tommie

    Are you denying that you said unfortunately we have to see australia being pulled further down the drain by this incompetent woman 😯

    No wonder you don’t understand what the misogyny speech was all about, and just why our msm STILL don’t get it.

  225. You know Bacchus govt debt went from 4% of GDP in 1983 when Fraser lost office to 18% of GDP during the last time Labor was in power. It would have quadrupled again from 1996 until the GFC hit if Labor had still been in power. Just imagine what condition we would have been in if we hit the GFC with debt at 80% of GDP which is what it would have been if Labor has not been tossed out in 1996??

    You are giving too much credit to the current govt and not enough credit to the Howard/Costello govt.

  226. Incompetent, immoral PM will do me.

    “Aust CO2 emissions hit 10-year low
    Updated: 17:18, Thursday April 11, 2013
    Australia’s greenhouse gas emissions from electricity generation have fallen to a 10-year low as coal-fired power slumped to its lowest level in a decade, a new report says.

    At the same time, the share of renewable energy in the National Electricity Market (NEM) has soared beyond 12 per cent and looks set to continue rising.

    In its latest quarterly emissions outlook, energy and carbon research firm RepuTex found coal power made up 74.8 per cent of the NEM in the three months ended in March – its lowest point in 10 years.

    Coal was at more than 85 per cent of the NEM four years ago, when wind made up just half a per cent of the overall mix.

    Today, wind generation is at 3.8 per cent, hydro 8.7 per cent and gas at 12.7 per cent of the NEM.

    ‘Renewables are basically cancelling out coal,’ RepuTex executive director Hugh Grossman told AAP on Thursday.

    As a result, Australia’s CO2 emissions were driven down to a ten-year low, he said.

    Coal generation has been trending steadily downwards since the introduction of the carbon pricing mechanism last July, which has seen wholesale electricity prices nearly double.

    With weaker demand and record-high renewable energy output, coal is feeling the pinch.

    But it could bounce back once the fixed-price period for the carbon tax ends in 2015 and Australia’s emissions trading scheme (ETS) links with Europe’s carbon market.

    RepuTex forecasts that when the price floats, a tonne of carbon could drop from its fixed price of $25.40 to as little as $8.

    ‘That is a significant reduction in liability for coal generators,’ Mr Grossman said.

    But power generation using brown coal would ‘really struggle’ post 2017, when federal government compensation for the industry expires, he said.

    RepuTex is predicting growth in new renewable energy projects will outstrip electricity demand.

    The sector was trying to meet the Renewable Energy Target (RET), a bipartisan agreement to ensure 20 per cent of Australia’s energy comes from renewable sources by 2020.

    Mr Grossman said what would happen if the carbon tax was repealed was not clear.

    Last month, his firm reported that unwinding the carbon tax would have indirect consequences for incentives to invest in the renewable energy sector…”

    http://www.skynews.com.au/national/article.aspx?id=862599

    At least she does get results,

  227. Bacchus if Labor is so good how come they could not get those economic numbers from 1983-1996?? Thirteen years is a long time.

    As for that IMF report it makes no sense to me like most of the stuff you post. Costello was running $20B surpluses and they are accused of reckless spending.

    There has to be a mistake in that report. And no source is independent. Perhaps the IMF like Swan because he is increasing debt like Europe is.

  228. Neil, once again, how one judges the economy is about much more than debt.

    More than deficits and surpluses.

    We live in a global economy, which is forever changing.

  229. Neil still hasn’t a clue and is one of the greatest economic ignoramuses to ingratiate themselves on us. The perfect candidate for a blind closed minded Liberal supporter. Neil is money for nothing for them.

  230. I guess in the Young Liberals’ minds, the 1982. 1990 and 2009 global recessions didn’t happen. Fortunately, the electorate threw out the country’s worst ever treasurer after the first one, and we dodged a bullet by having Labor in place during the next two.

    One of these times, they’ll get to hang around and enjoy the good times they’ve always setup for following governments…

  231. Don’t remind me about 1990-1992 Bacchus. Home loan interest rates at 18% and 30 months of double digit unemployment.

    But that is what i don’t understand about you people. Howard gets blamed for 1982 when there was a nasty worldwide recession. In case you don’t know Bacchus the USA also had 20% interest rates so i don’t understand why you blame Howard. Our interest rates have to be the same or higher than overseas otherwise money will flow out of the country. What was Howard to do??

    But I do not believe that IMF report. It makes no sense. Costello pays off $96B of debt and he is a wasteful spender?? Load of crap.

  232. The Liberals (under treasurer JOHN HOWARD) were the only party in history to bring simultaneous:

    Double digit unemployment
    Double digit interest rates
    and Double digit inflation

  233. The Liberals (under treasurer JOHN HOWARD) were the only party in history to bring simultaneous:”

    You have told me that a million times. The USA had similar economic numbers and we were more closely tied to the USA back in 1982. And double digit unemployment was only for a few months

    So you think economic results are all due to the Treasurer??

    This is what happened under Labor

    Sept-Dec 1991- 10.1, 10.0, 10.2, 10.4
    Jan-Dec 1992- 10.3, 10.4, 10.5, 10.6, 10.7, 11.0, 11.0, 10.8, 10.7, 11.0, 11.0, 11.2
    Jan-Dec1993- 10.9, 11.0, 10.8, 10.7, 10.8, 11.0, 10.8, 11.0, 10.7, 10.9, 10.8, 10.6
    Jan-April 1994- 10.4, 10.3, 10.3, 10.1

    THIRTY MONTHS of double digit unemployment. Give me Howards recession any day.

    And i suspect that IMF report is a pack of lies.

  234. Neil… how can you stay so patient with people who quote falsly and manipulate data to try to make their case…

    Facts are facts

    Under liberal the economies of countries and the world do well
    Under socialism the economies of countries and the world do bad…

    QED
    Nite nite Bacchus – Cuppa and Fed up….
    thanks Neil…

  235. You have told me that a million times.

    So you’re innumerate and prone to “exaggeration”.

    That figures, being a Liberal.

    As long as the LieNP put about the myth of “superior economic management” others and I will continue to set the record straight. A “million” times if necessary.

  236. Yep Dirk they tell falsehoods. i am waiting for the next leftoid to tell me that Howard altered the way the unemployment rate is measured to make his govt look better.

  237. The USA had similar economic numbers and we were more closely tied to the USA back in 1982.

    Australia has better numbers than the USA at the moment. Takes a Labor government.

    As a matter of fact, under Labor, we’ve got better numbers than almost ANY developed economy.

  238. Mate I will give a Labor govt credit when I see them take govt debt from 18% of GDP to zero like Costello did. In fact it was less than zero. We had money in the bank.

    Govt debt is now 10% of GDP. Lets see Swan pay some debt back. Our economic numbers are better because Costello got us out of debt.

  239. Costello can’t take credit for the rivers of gold that flowed into treasury coffers while he lounged on a hammock.

    But he is responsible for being the most wasteful treasurer in Australia’s 200-year history.,

  240. Definition from right-whinge NOalition dictionary:

    Falsehood: noun.
    Any factual statement, even if backed by impeccable sources, that doesn’t agree with the close-minded opinion as espoused by the Lieberal party or one of its economically illiterate spokespersons (Joe, Tony, Andrew, Malcolm, John, Peter etc.)

  241. Bacchus

    Use your brain and don’t believe everything you read. That IMF report has to be a mistake.

    You know you lot told me and people still tell me that Howard altered the way the unemployment rate is measured to make his govt look better. Load of crap.

    While I am at it I do not trust ANYTHING Peter Martin, Bernard Keane or Stephen Koukamaniac says as well.

  242. If’n it don’t fit the ‘mantra’ then its a pack of lie’s….. one wonders if that is indeed MSMLNP policy………. oh, apart from ‘we hate Labor’…. their main policy (year in, year out) ……. have they actually got a policy that dosn’t involve hate and negativity…… I mean look at their Trolls as an example…..look at the bile and spite they exude…..what a way to spend your one time around, being a human being like that…..and they think it makes them superior 🙄 …..

  243. Starting to cool down up here. That means fine reds with some fine Cubans season.

    Birthday in a months time…first on the wishlist is a humidor. Has never been the same since I gave it all away.

    Got a source to the boutique lines of Cubans not distributed widely…some of my best reds are ready to drink. Got my eye on a vintage St Henri.

  244. The libs fraudband just keeps getting worst.

    Labor’s NBN also requires 60,000 street cabinets, but they are shorter and about half the width of the cabinets required under the Coalition plan. Unlike the Coalition’s cabinets, Labor’s do not require power.

    http://www.theage.com.au/it-pro/government-it/nbn-street-cabinets-hideous-20130411-2hoka.html

    I have also read that their is a distinct possibility of fires in the libs cabinets, as the super-fast transmissions are bottle-necked into the inadequate copper lines causing overheating.

  245. two facts need to stick to your empty minds Loco/micheal.tommie fedup and the drunk…..
    1- under liberal 4 people in detention … under labor 36000
    2- under liberal 20 billion dollar surplis …. under labor 160 billion dollar deficit

    policies or not… the actions they put in place work for australia…
    under labor… the actions they put in place work for themselves and the many mates they support….

    liberal governs for the people of australia
    labor governs for them people they give bribes and handouts to…

    QED
    have a nice day

  246. On the other hand Labor strives to create a more egalitarian society while the Libs pander to vested interests and the wealthy – the evidence for this being Abbott’s refusal to allow a conscience vote on marriage equality, Abbott’s plan to give the cream of any paid parental leave scheme to millionaire stay-at-home moms, Abbott’s refusal to support an education scheme which gives more to disadvantaged children irrespective of public or private, Abbott’s intention of allowing the mega miners to continue to send the bulk of their profits overseas…

  247. Dirk/Dick We know you & your ilk would never let the truth get in the way of some good old mendacious hyperbole but here is some truth for you which will put your garbage into perspective. Since Labor has been in government there has been 12,392 refugees arriving by boats to seek asylum in Australia. These are the figures up until the financial year 2011/12. I doubt very much that even the LNP spinmeisters could scrounge up enough asylum seekers arriving in the past 9 & 1/2 months to make up the rest of your quoted number of 36,000.

    http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/BN/2011-2012/BoatArrivals

    As for your assertion that there was only FOUR asylum seekers in detention during the golden years of the Howard government where are your figures to prove that?Why did the Howard government need to build the detention facilities in Nauru, Manus Island, Christmas Island, Baxter, Port Hedland etc, etc, etc to accommodate only FOUR refugees.

  248. “Close-minded”? If we were close-minded we’d be lined up at the trough of the ‘mainstream media’ for our daily reinforcement of pro-Liberal brainwashing. But we’re not. We’re here, building the new landscape of independent media, where there isn’t the systemic censorship of progressive views.

  249. derk, you still haven’t explained your claim that I put words in your mouth, when it is obvious I used the words that you did

    Or is that just another excuse for ‘you were wrong again’?

  250. Costello can’t take credit for the rivers of gold that flowed into treasury coffers while he lounged on a hammock.”

    Cuppa

    So only Costello got the “rivers of gold” But during this time Beattie/Bligh in Queensland didn’t?? So only the Federal govt got “rivers of gold” but during this same time the State govts didn’t??

    In case you do not know when Costello was paying off debt Queensland and other Labor states were racking it up. In fact during the biggest boom in history Queensland lost its credit rating.

    Your argument does not make sense

  251. Tom R, It seems to be obvious that derk/dirk/dick cannot handle being challenged. He seems to ignore any challenge to his “facts” & go off on another tangent of The Narrative when that happens.

    He’s also boring posters rigid with his version of the truth atm.

  252. ,He’s also boring posters rigid with his version of the truth atm. Left out “elsewhere”. Miglo has posted another blog.

  253. Joy… At the end of liberal’s reign there were 4 illegal asylum seekers in detention…. they DID have problems as people always will want to come to the lucky country … and hundreds came … but they SOLVED the problem.. they put in place the pacific solution… only for dummy rudd to dismantle it… and for incompetent redhead to make it worse with lies. And her FABULOUS negotiation skills were again on display when she put in place the ‘Malaysian’ solution…. giving 800 and receiving 4000 (and paying ALL costs associated with both sides of the equation)…. Gosh Gosh… quickly give her the nobel price for negotiation skills..

  254. Telstra will axe copper network

    By Cosima Marriner
    November 14, 2003

    Telstra will replace its century-old copper wire phone network with new technology within the next 15 years, saying the ageing lines are now at “five minutes to midnight”.

    Telstra executives revealed the problem at a Senate inquiry into broadband services on Wednesday – the same day the company was forced to apologise again for problems with its BigPond email service.

    In an email sent to customers late on Wednesday night, Telstra said the most recent email problems had to do with balancing the load on the system, rather than its actual capacity.

    “The BigPond team would like to apologise for some intermittent email problems you may have experienced this week,” Telstra said.

    “We quickly dedicated all available resources to the problem, working to address it by rebalancing the email load.”

    Telstra’s chief executive, Ziggy Switkowski, has promised to spend $100 million upgrading BigPond, after 1.5 million internet customers had their emails delayed by up to 48 hours.

    The Telstra board is likely to come under fire for the email problems from shareholders at the company’s annual general meeting today.

    Telstra’s manager of regulatory strategy, Tony Warren, gave the Senate broadband inquiry details of the company’s problems with its ageing copper network.

    He said ADSL, the high-speed internet service that runs over copper wires, was the bridging broadband technology Telstra was using until it replaced the network.

    He described ADSL as the “last sweat” of revenue Telstra could wring out of the 100-year-old copper wire network.

    A Telstra spokesman denied the ageing copper wire had anything to do with the email problems.

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674351979.html

  255. I doubt very much that even the LNP spinmeisters could scrounge up enough asylum seekers arriving in the past 9 & 1/2 months to make up the rest of your quoted number of 36,000.

    Looks like your wrong again Joy

    http://apo.org.au/research/boat-arrivals-australia-1976-july-2012-update

    The link gives figures for 2008 to Dec 2012, 1033, 5609, 4940, 7983 and 11896.

    That gives approx 31,500 to Dec 2102.

    I believe we have had 5,000 so far this year so that gives a number pretty close to 36,000.

  256. when she put in place the ‘Malaysian’ solution

    Which, until the HC ruling, appeared to be working. The libs are making sure it will never have the opportunity to though.

    Yea, nils on fire, saying that That IMF report has to be a mistake.

    ROFL

  257. And derk is still too gutless to acknowledge his totally unfounded accusation to me about putting words in his mouth, when I showed that the words in fact were his.

  258. @NoS According to the APH figures published, in the link above, the figures for the financial year of 2011–12 there were 110 boats,190 crew & 7983 asylum seekers. This is the FINANCIAL year. So I am NOT wrong. Where did you get the extra 11896 for the six months to December 2012? Or are you saying that the APH publishes lies?

    YOU are just taking figures & making them suit your narrative. Typical. You have more to worry about with illegal overstayers who ARE taking jobs from Australians.

  259. It might surprise some but at this stage it does not matter what did or not occurred under Howard. No one can say, that if all that Howard put in place remained, we would still have the same problem today.

    What matters,. is what can be done now. There is a plan put forwarded. that need to be adopted in full. What we have now is the worst of all worlds. A more harsher Pacific Solutiion.

    Who wants to see a further 1.5 billion spent for drones, to prevent a few refugees from seeking safe haven. Waste of money in the extreme.

    Forget about the past, one cannot change it.

    While the Opposition is able to focus on what might or might not have been, the boats keep coming. Money is wasted. People drown.

  260. Fed Up… the reason why close to 1000 (yes ONE THOUSAND) people have died trying to come to Australia.. has NOTHING to do with the coalition as they had the problem solved. Well and truly.

    It’s dummy-boy Rudd who in a fit of grandiose thinking cancelled the pacific solution, and it’s the incompetent redhead who with her fabulous negotiation skills and her persistent lies about ‘breaking the business model for the people smugglers’ who have blood on their hands…

    The ONLY thing that the incompetent redhead has to do is to re-instate ALL the steps the Howard (yes that class act again) government put in place. Not go to a commission to ask for a watered-down solution. THE SOLUTION IS IN THE COALTION….

    So why don’t you want to save these lives of these people ????? WHY ?????

    Vote liberal… and all these worries will be over… haha… simple isn’t it. That way you and the other wankers on this page will not have to waste our time…

  261. I got the Figures from Appendix B on page 23 on the link I gave at 9.25AM. They have updated the figures.

    Click on this title to get the PDF file

    “Boat arrivals in Australia since 1976: July 2012 update”

  262. So only Costello got the “rivers of gold” But during this time Beattie/Bligh in Queensland didn’t?? So only the Federal govt got “rivers of gold” but during this same time the State govts didn’t??
    _____________

    Sydney Morning Herald, 11 October 2007:

    Federal government payments to the states have fallen to their lowest level in 10 years, a new report shows.

    The 2006-07 final budget outcome, released last month, showed that payments to the states have fallen from 7.2 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP) or about $53 billion in 2001-02 down to 6.5 per cent of GDP or about $68 billion in 2006-07.

    The payments, as outlined in the federal government-compiled report, include grants and GST revenue, an Australian Financial Review report said.

    Separate research undertaken by Macquarie Bank has found the annual rate of growth in total payments to the states has slowed from a high of 12 per cent in 2001-02 to 4.6 per cent in 2006-07.

    “Canberra’s effective funding of state budgets is as low as it has been in three decades,” a Macquarie Bank economist told the Australian Financial Review.

    my emphasis

    http://news.smh.com.au/national/govt-payments-to-states-at-10-year-low-20071011-13oc.html

  263. Separate research undertaken by Macquarie Bank has found the annual rate of growth in total payments to the states has slowed from a high of 12 per cent in 2001-02 to 4.6 per cent in 2006-07.”

    Wow so the annual rate of growth has slowed from 12%/year to 4.6%/year.

    And what was the rate of inflation during this time??

    The States were getting plenty of money.

  264. I do not remember the Pacific Solution ever being popular. As many of you remind us, the mobs were out in the streets protesting.

    Yes, Labor responded to public demand to dismantle much of the Pacific Solution. Howard had already stopped in his attempts to turn the boats back. Howard was moving away from Manus and Nauru before he was deposed. Also the court was busy finding much of what was in place illegal.

    Yes, Howard would also have had many ongoing problems if not defeated. Yes, it is possible the boats would have resumed coming. In facts, figures in relation to those fleeing and seeking safe haven point to this.

    There was the sinking of that boat with the lost of hundreds of lives led to a pause in People getting on boats.

    It also left thousands stranded in Malaysia and Indonesia. Over time, these people have come to the realisation, there is no future, waiting. Kids are not being educated. Money is running out.

    If we, over the last few years, took more of these people, giving them some hope for the future, maybe the boat trade would not have thrived.

    What Howard did do, was to go ahead with the intention of spending hundred of millions new facilities on Christmas Island. WHY?

    How does the continuous focus on what Howard did or not do, fix the problem today.

    What I believe is true, the Opposition is very happy with the present situation. I also believe that Abbott will not stop the boats.

    It has to be a regional solution. We have to take more from the source.

  265. FED UP I don’t know what it takes to get you to see things the way they are. I hope my ability to accept defeat doesn’t diminish with aging….

    We’re wasting 5 billion a year on this failed policy (come on lefties… go and ask me to provide the details of the assertion that it’s 5 billion so that you can all try to sideline me by picking on this number….)

    and the fact stands….
    read it again….
    4 people in detention at the end of the libs government for the people
    36000 people in detention and the ii’s come by the boatload….every day

    facts… not rhetoric will prevail in a free society, and I hope that the attempts of the left to stop this from being a free society will not succeed… it’d be a sad day for australia.

  266. Last time I will address the Liberal red herring about the amount of money the states had. Read it again:

    “Canberra’s effective funding of state budgets is as low as it has been in three decades”

    The Liberals were swimming in tax revenues, thanks to: a) the global & domestic financial booms and b) being the biggest-taxing government in history). They had more money than even they could blow on electoral bribes and useless crap like flagpoles. As it was they turned out to be the most wasteful government in our 200-year history.

    Costello – most wasteful treasurer Australia has ever had.

  267. No aging is a positive. Tell me what I have written that is wrong.

    I suspect when you reach my age, you will have learnt nothing.

    One has to take in what is really occurring, for wisdom to develope.

    You are only here to divert genuine debate, cannot afford the focus to be taken from his lies. Dwelling in the past is the only weapon he has.

    THAT IS WHY I AM MORE INTERESTED IN LOOKING AND TALKING ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING TODAY.

    I will leave the past to the historians.

  268. Cuppa…. dumb how can you call somebody wasteful when he leaves 20 Billion AUD in the kitty … the real wasteful ones are the labor government who managed in a few short years to go from that rosy position to a debt of 160 billion aud…. your brain is indeed as big as a cuppa (good name choice)….

  269. 20 Billion AUD in the kitty

    Liberals must have a problem with comprehension (along with other things). As I said to the other Liberal: read it again: They had more money than even they could waste (the most wasteful government in our history).

    Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.

  270. “Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.”

    Now I would like to see a reference for that!!!

    He does say we are wasting the mining boom

    http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/homepage-speeches-articles/budget-in-reply-speech-labor-wasting-the-boom/

    During the four budgets delivered so far by Labor in this term of government the Treasury figures from October last year suggest that the federal government has benefited from a terms of trade windfall of at least $90 billion, with the largest single boost coming in the 2011-12 financial year we are about to commence. According to the latest government forecasts deficits run up by Labor over those four years from 2008-09 to 2011-12 will total $154 billion. Regardless of the impact of the global financial crisis those figures speak for themselves……………………..There we can seen that annual spending has risen by $90 billion since the last year of the Howard government. That is a rise of 33 per cent in nominal terms and more than 20 per cent after adjusting for price changes.

  271. Yes, we are wasting many millions of dollars on the present asylum seeking schemes, that Abbott demanded. Yes, opening Manus and Naura are a complete flop. Not given the refugee visa; so does not appear to work.

    Yes, we have a harsher form ot the Howard Pacific Scheme. It does not work anymore, even if it did in the past.

    Yes, things are bad. What does one do anbout it?

    Sending most of the Sri Lankans back within a week or two by plane does not appear to have much effect.

    What is still true, most that come are genuine refugees. Could that be the point that most are missing.. Could it be true that these people have very few ooptions.

    Cannot believe that nost would risk their lives, getting on those boats just for economic reasons.

    The only choice left is for the complete Housten plan to be put into operation.

  272. “Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.”

    Now I would like to see a reference for that!!!

    Not that I have to prove anything to Liberals who come here with the task of regurgitating and pushing Lieberal Spin… but for the benefit of the general readership:

    Turnbull: we made economic mistakes

    […]”The reality was inevitably the surpluses came in – in those last three years much bigger than forecast – so the government was presented with a lot more money at the eleventh hour, as it were.”

    Mr Turnbull’s view challenges the Coalition’s formal position that it was its economic management that produced its repeated budget surpluses.

    Mr Turnbull believes the Coalition should have banked much more of the income from the mining boom, perhaps by putting it in a wealth fund managed by the Future Fund. But he said the idea had become less attractive after ”the so-called Keating debt had been paid off”….

    Sydney Morning Herald, 20 April 2012

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/turnbull-we-made-economic-mistakes-20120419-1xa2d.html

  273. Neil, maybe Howard would not have wasted as much money, if he did not take us into unnecessary wars.

  274. Your taking Turnbull out of context. This what he said

    According to the Treasury’s central case the resources boom delivered a revenue windfall of about $25 billion over the last three budgets delivered by Peter Costello. Those three budgets were in surplus by $53 billion so all of the income from the boom and more was banked, although Treasury’s central case estimate suggests the budget was in a small structural deficit in 2007-08. So much for claims that the Howard government blew the boom! While its last term could have been more disciplined, as my colleague Joe Hockey acknowledged on 18 May, there was nothing like the thoughtless orgy of frenzied spending and borrowing that we have seen under Labor.”

    All govts waste some money.

  275. Cuppa, Neil’s problem is that he judges all governments on debt.

    Does not or refuses to acknowledge or understand that the figures he insists on repeating, do not mean what he says.

    There is much more to a nation’s economy than debts and deficits. Debt can be good and bad. Debt can be necessary at times. This country can service the debt level at this time.

  276. Cuppa, Neil’s problem is that he judges all governments on debt.

    Yes, Fed Up, it’s a red herring. The fact is, their party was the biggest-taxing, most wasteful in history. When that’s pointed out, they say, Oh, but what about the surplus? The surplus, as Turnbull said, was basically a fluke, and they should have saved more. Then they say, Oh, but all governments waste some money! Perhaps so, but only one party wears the record for being the most wasteful EVER in our history. (They even try to say the IMF report that showed that ‘must be a mistake’ Lol).

    And that’s before we even get to the Liberals’ record of debt and deficit under John Howard’ as treasurer

  277. Yes, Fed Up, it’s a red herring. The fact is, their party was the biggest-taxing, most wasteful in history.”

    See it is comments like that why i call you people the most deceitful people i have met. Costello pays off $96B of debt and he is called wasteful.

    Actually FU my main focus is not on debt but about the lies people like Cuppa tell.

    For example Cuppa says Turnball said this “Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.

    Actually what Turnbull did say was this about Howard/Costello “While its last term could have been more disciplined, as my colleague Joe Hockey acknowledged on 18 May, there was nothing like the thoughtless orgy of frenzied spending and borrowing that we have seen under Labor”

    If I needed someone to bear false witness against another person I would pick Cuppa.

  278. Neil
    that’s the trait of the McTurt trained troupes of ‘independent’ journalists… the Turt advises them to distort and to misrepresent.

    I don’t think FedUp is in that McTurt mischievous troupe… I think she’s genetically predisposed to see the world through tainted glasses that make her see the world only according to HER limited scope.. I can forgive her.

  279. The fact is, their party was the biggest-taxing, most wasteful in history.”

    See it is comments like that why i call you people the most deceitful people i have met. Costello pays off $96B of debt and he is called wasteful.

    They’re not my words so don’t accuse me of being deceitful. To do so is Right-Wing Projection, the political tactic for which Liberals are notorious. In other words, right-wingers using descriptions pertaining to themselves to describe others.

    “The biggest-taxing”

    …the Howard Government was the highest taxing government in Australia’s history ~Stephen Koukoulas

    http://stephenkoukoulas.blogspot.com.au/2011/11/update-more-great-big-new-facts-on-tax.html

    “The most wasteful”

    Australia’s most needless wasteful spending took place under the John Howard-led Coalition government rather than under the Whitlam, Rudd or Gillard Labor governments, a study has found.

    The International Monetary Fund study bills itself as the first to examine 200 years of government financial records across 55 leading economies.

    It identifies only two periods of Australian “fiscal profligacy” in recent years, both during Mr Howard’s term in office – in 2003 at the start of the mining boom and during his final years in office between 2005 and 2007.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/australias-most-wasteful-spending-came-in-howard-era-finds-imf-20130110-2cj38.html#ixzz2QDDgTAht

  280. See what I mean about Right-Wing Projection.

    Derk:

    the liars like Cuppa and Bacchus and Joy and others

    Editor’s note: Dirk’s accusation was uncalled for and has been deleted. My apologies to Cuppa, Bacchus and Joy for having to be subject to such allegations.

  281. …the lies people like Cuppa tell.

    For example Cuppa says Turnball said this “Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.”

    I quote Turnbull himself. Read it again: Turnbull:

    […]”The reality was inevitably the surpluses came in – in those last three years much bigger than forecast – so the government was presented with a lot more money at the eleventh hour, as it were.”

    If I needed someone to bear false witness against another person I would pick Cuppa.

    So quoting a Liberal is bearing false witness against them? Liberals are so steeped in dishonesty they say that.

  282. Derk:

    that’s the trait of the McTurt trained troupes of ‘independent’ journalists… the Turt advises them to distort and to misrepresent.

    Evidence? Or is this more Liberal Lies and Projection?

  283. I quote Turnbull himself. Read it again: Turnbull:

    […]”The reality was inevitably the surpluses came in – in those last three years much bigger than forecast – so the government was presented with a lot more money at the eleventh hour, as it were.””

    Yes but you said this “Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.”

    It was not measly and not a fluke. He ran 10 surplus budgets remember. The last couple however were bigger than predicted. And it was bigger because business was happy to invest under Costello. What Turnbull did say was this “While its last term could have been more disciplined……………….there was nothing like the thoughtless orgy of frenzied spending and borrowing that we have seen under Labor

  284. The Liberal spinner on here seems intent on ignoring what Turnbull said.

    Now, I wonder why that would be! 😉

    It’s probably for the same reason he “doesn’t believe” the IMF report, that found the Liberals were the most wasteful government ever seen in this country.

    “that IMF report it makes no sense to me”…”I do not believe that IMF report”

    Inconvenient truths like Turnbull’s and the IMF’s they either ignore or refuse to believe.

    They just can abide truth.

  285. Hey Cuppa, how can you call the Libs liars and then cite what one says as some form of credible argument??

    Can’t have it both ways in the real world.

  286. Occasionally one of them lapses into inconvenient truth-telling. When that happens, Liberal spinners ignore their statements, as we’ve seen here.

  287. Naturally to call someone a liar is the height of compliments in Liberal land.

    And then when called on it, gutless twirps like dirp just ignore it and pretend like nothing happened

  288. Many thanks Editor for deleting the comment from dirkrossey. Never saw it myself apart from in the quote above in Cuppa’s cmment.

    It does appear as though certain persons feel they are completely entitled to defame or besmirch others with their judgemental & scurrilous remarks without any qualms or consequences whatsoever, yet if their statements, no matter how shonky, are called into question they resort to vile abuse.

    Thanks again Editor. 🙂

  289. “Inconvenient truths like Turnbull’s

    Turnbull said this “While its last term could have been more disciplined“. That is nothing like you said he said. It is normal behaviour for Labor supporters to twist the words of people for political purposes.

    No I do not believe the IMF report. I also did not believe the Treasury report that said Costello was running structural deficits for his last 3 years. That report was published in the 2010 budget. A couple of years latter Treasury had another go at measuring Costello’s alleged structural deficit and came up with a completely different result. That result was not widely published.

    You have to use some common sense. A man who produced $105B of surplus budgets in 12 years and took our govt debt to zero is not reckless spending.

    You people are insane.

  290. It does appear as though certain persons feel they are completely entitled to defame or besmirch others with their judgemental & scurrilous remarks without any qualms or consequences whatsoever,”

    Perhaps you should practise what you preach. If you work one hour per week you are considered employed. It is an International standard so we can compare unemployment rates from country to country.

    You claimed that Abbott introduced this definition to make Abbott look mean and nasty.

    You should apologise.

  291. Australian budget surplus (Coalition, 2007) compared internationally.

    Australia 1.4% of GDP
    Denmark (3.8%)
    Russia (4%)
    Chile (8%)
    Saudi Arabia (18.7%).
    Norway (18.9%)

    http://www.crikey.com.au/Election-2007/20071024-John-Howard-no-longer-a-fiscal-conservative.html

    Norway, I believe, had/has a resources tax on their sizeable oil holdings, which goes towards their stupendous sovereign wealth fund. Such a tax the Liberals here, and their financial backers in the resources industry, bitterly oppose.

  292. Cuppa… we all know you’ve been to a course and learned the meaning of the word ‘projection’…. can you stop boring us with a reference to your narrow learning every second response you have…

    accept the reality and the superior wisdom of Neil and ….

  293. @NoS Get stuffed. You are a pompous, pedantic, petulant prat. Get a life, preferably one where you get to actually experience life as it really is.

  294. Neil. if a business decided that paying off the debt was the most important thing to do but forgot to invest in infrastructure that ensures future income, they would soon go broke.

    This is what the Howard government did. Lower taxes for the wealthy. Cut back on services for the poor. Did not spend on maintenance or invest in infrastructure for the future. It went further than that, they left behind structural problems within the budget.

    The handout of benefits and rebate to the highest income earners, is ongoing.

    This government has practiced the most fragile fiscal austerity, pulling back on much of the Howard government.

    For this they have been widely condemned for every cut in spending they have made.

    This is what I mean, by taking figures out of context, proves nothing.

    Neil, you are only repeating history. You are not proving what those historical figures mean.

  295. Joy… language… he’s a very informed – well mannered communicator… you’re just getting annoyed with the truth. Go and ask your labor buddies to put a stop to people like him…. My Gosh – how dare he tell the truth and get away with it ? Not in our ‘INDEPENDENT MEDIA’ community. Go away freedom of opinion.. THE ONLY OPINION THAT MATTERS IS OURS….

  296. Fed Up.. go back to sleep…. everything has to be presented in context… he’s doing that… you’re refusing to accept that context – very labor to not accept the truth and to do everything possible to make history fit your dogmatic view of the world

  297. Thanks for the compliment Dirk. I know I am getting my message across, when the abuse starts coming. What have I said that is so outrageous.

    It could not possibly be that saying taking debt figures out of context proves nothing.

    Could not be, that there is much more to a nation’s economy than quoting debt figures. Could not be, that we reside in a global economy, and that affects what happens here.

    My old man, born 1900 and no education, used to say, when it comes to the economy, it is impossible to waste money. All the economy cares about, is keeping that money going around, and around.

    When it stops, we are all in trouble.

  298. Dirk do you realise, you never respond to points made. All you do is attack the person.

    Tell me where I am wrong.

  299. Will be on every street corner. Big users of power. High cost maintenance.

    Has been suggested they can even cause fires.

    Will be useless, when the changeover to fibre to the home extensions are needed before the decade are out.

  300. we all know you’ve been to a course and learned the meaning of the word ‘projection’

    There’s a psychological and a political context in which projection is used.

    Right Wing Projection is the deliberate and very dishonest and hypocritical political tactic.

  301. Min… the redhead plays the man all the time… never plays the ball …

    And that entire load of bullshit played the (wo)man, not the ball. From the colour of the Prime Minister’s hair to a straight-out lie about her political approach.

    See what we mean about Liberals and the political tactic of Right Wing Projection, readers? What they claim of their opponents describes what they do themselves.

  302. Fed Up… your old man was correct… money makes the world go round. But he didn’t know the current globalization context of money going around. And for the moment the money that is going around in Australia is all BORROWED money that will need to be paid back with huge interest costs attached to it… I’m sure your old man would also have told you to NOT get into debt. He’s was a smart man. So why do you keep going with the losers who know nothing but to indebt our country and economy?

  303. “@NoS Get stuffed. You are a pompous, pedantic, petulant prat.

    You were trying to defame Tony Abbott.

    http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Previousproducts/6202.0Main%20Features999Feb%202012?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=6202.0&issue=Feb%202012&num=&view=

    According to established international standards, everyone who works for at least one hour or more for pay or profit is considered to be employed. This includes everyone from teenagers who work part-time after school, to a partially retired grandparent helping out at the school canteen. While it is unreasonable to expect a family to survive on the income of an hour of work per week, one could also argue that all work, no matter how small, contributes to the economy. This definition of ‘one hour or more’ – which is an international standard – means that ABS’ employment figures can be compared with the rest of the world

    People from the left of politics tell so many falsehoods. You should apologise Joy.

  304. “………….Economist Stephen Koukoulas has noted almost $40 of the $96 billion in debt inherited by the Coalition in 1996 was a leftover from the Fraser government in the early 1980s, when John Howard was treasurer. The recession during this period necessitated an expansion of government debt, though it was hypocritical for the Howard government to criticise Labor for its expansion of public debt when the Coalition acted no differently during an economic downturn.

    That public debt has risen once again by a small margin since the onset of the GFC is not sufficient grounds to label it as excessive as Robb has. Thus, these criticisms over public debt have nothing to do with either political party being good or bad economic managers, but rather, is the result of cheap political point scoring, hoping the public doesn’t do its research.

    Ultimately, the focus of concern should not be upon the government’s historically and internationally low position of public debt, but upon the immense burden imposed upon the Australian economy by private debt. Once the housing bubble begins to deflate and citizens reduce consumption to focus on debt repayment, the federal and state governments will have no choice but to go deeply into debt to ameliorate falling taxation revenue and higher unemployment.

    There is no intrinsic problem with either public or private debt. Both need to be carefully considered to ensure efficient allocations into productive activity. Public debt is not a burden if it is used to produce an income stream to pay down the resulting interest or to enhance productivity, for instance, if invested in infrastructure, health, education, or research. It becomes a problem, however, if used to finance excessive defence spending, bank bailouts, pork-barrel projects and middle-class welfare.

    The same goes for private debt. As long as debt finances production, the resulting income streams will be more than enough to pay down the debt. On the other hand, if private debt is used to speculate on stocks and real estate – as has occurred many times in the past – it simply results in a zero-sum game where speculators transfer assets among themselves without enhancing productivity.

    Unfortunately, the discourse over debt is almost entirely focused upon public rather than private debt. There is no reason for concern over our relatively low federal or state debt. The real problem is in the major rise in the private debt, primarily within households. This is what commentators should be focusing upon..…..”

    http://theconversation.com/the-truth-behind-our-dangerous-public-debt-levels-13245

    Never hear anything about the record private debt that the Hoard years generated.

    Emphasis mine.

  305. Didn’t somebody with a name familliar to yours tell us not to go into the past and to focus on what’s happening now….

    Be consistent …

  306. Dirk, sorry, I fail to follow your reasoning. Suspect it is something you thought up, to make to fit in with your ongoing speil.

    Borrowed money, invested wisely, also creates wealth. In fact I believe that is how the economical world operates.

  307. FU

    I am not talking about whether debt is good or bad. I am talking about factual accuracy.

    Cuppa is trying to say that Turnbull said that Costello surplus budgets “was basically a fluke” Turnbull said nothing of the sort. Cuppa is twisting Turnbulls words.

    Why do you want to go into an area I am not talking about???

  308. Would love to stay with today. The likes of you will not allow that. Therefore, I though maybe a few more facts would not hurt. Facts, presented in context and with explanation.

    What about the massive privat dent, that Howard left. That one was a reality.

    Or it is just another inconvenient fact.

  309. FU and C (your missing a friend whose name starts with a ‘K’ …

    I’m done talking with you for a while…

  310. …noted almost $40 of the $96 billion in debt inherited by the Coalition in 1996 was a leftover from the Fraser government in the early 1980s, when John Howard was treasurer.

    Ouch! That knocks the Liebral slogan “$96 billion Labor debt” on the head. 40 per cent of it was THEIR OWN debt. (Bit of early use of Right Wing Projection there, perhaps?)

    The more you dig into it (and you don’t even have to dig very deeply) the hollower their claims are.

    Before becoming PM Howard (and the Liberals) campaigned on the so-called foreign debt problem.

    For a stunt they acquired a Debt Truck that they took about the country.

    What happened after that? Australia’s foreign debt blew out under the Liberals. By the end of their term in office we had number 4 or 5 biggest debt on earth in dollar terms.

    LNP: Lies Not Policies.

  311. Another inconvenient fact is that Keating had to deal with for years, the debt left by treasurer Howard. He manage the undoable. High umemplyment. High infllation. High debt.

    In spite of the problems Keating faced, he bought in greater economic reform, much unpopular at the time, that stood the economy in good stead, during the Howard years, and the GFC.

  312. FU and C (your missing a friend whose name starts with a ‘K’ …

    Liberals : juvenile pissants.

  313. Gee, I do hope they keep their word and disappear for a while. Do not expect that to happen.

    Still have not told me where I am wrong. Just that I am pathetic. Would love them to address some of the points I make.

    Can only come to the conclusion, they do not have the ability or nous to do so.

    Name calling and belittling is the limit of their talents.

  314. Fed Up,

    Wonder why a few home truths hurt so much.

    Goes with the political territory I guess. If they were to tell the truth about their agenda, policies and past performance (the truth, not spin), 90 per cent of people would never vote for them. So the default position is lies, spin and projection. Carried by among the most partisan media of any democracy.

  315. Ouch! That knocks the Liebral slogan “$96 billion Labor debt” on the head. 40 per cent of it was THEIR OWN debt. (Bit of early use of Right Wing Projection there, perhaps?)

    I told you I don’t believe anything Stephen Koukamaniac says. I would advise you to do the same. Govt debt was approx 5% of GDP when Fraser lost office and quadrupled to 19% of GDP when Keating lost office in 1996.

    It would have quadrupled again if Labor was not tossed out in 1996.

  316. If one wants a laugh, listen to the interview of Morrison on ABC 24. Whining about the PM stealing and enacting policies.

    The raving on, is beyond belief.

  317. The poor old Liberal Spinner ignoring inconvenient facts again. Quite a pattern here.

    40 billion of the so-called “$96 billion Labor debt” was in fact LIBERAL DEBT. Allowing for inflation between 1983 and 1996 that’s considerably more than 40 percent of it.

  318. Neil, you do not believe anyone that says anything that does not fit in with your obsession with debt. You do not even accept that debt can be also good.

    It is hard to move past the fact that Howard was one of the worse treasures this country has ever seen.

    I still do not understand why this topic, of Neils obsession with debt, has to be repeated over and over. Where does it lead. How does it compute with today’s problems.

  319. Neil, you do not believe anyone that says anything that does not fit in with your obsession with debt. ”

    I am not bringing it up. YOU ARE. Please change the subject!!!

    Cuppa said this “Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.”

    Turnbull said nothing of the sort. Cuppa is twisting Turnbulls words. It is something i see all the time on leftoid blogs.

    ALP supporters put words into the mouths of other human beings. I am trying to get Cuppa not to tell lies about Turnbull.

    That is all.

  320. Neil, am I reading correctly, you do not want to talk about debt. That I find hard to believe. I suspect it is only the allege debt of this government that concerns you.

    Nice to know, one can get under your skin. Did not believe that was possibe.

    Neil, suggest another topic to talk about.

    Happy to let the debate on debt go.

  321. Stephen Koukoulis,

    …noted almost $40 of the $96 billion in debt inherited by the Coalition in 1996 was a leftover from the Fraser government in the early 1980s, when John Howard was treasurer.

    Facts, figures, truth. All indisputable. So how does the Liberal spinner react?

    I told you I don’t believe anything Stephen Koukamaniac says. I would advise you to do the same.

    Truth. They just can’t abide it.

  322. “Neil, am I reading correctly, you do not want to talk about debt.”

    Sort of.

    This conversation started because Cuppa said it was dumb luck that Costello paid off debt and he also said Turnbull said this “Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.”

    Turnbull said nothing of the sort. It takes an evil person to put words into the mouth of another human being. And I mean EVIL.

    ALP supporters are always trying to say the wonderful economic numbers under Howard were dumb luck.

  323. No you were not. You were bearing false witness.

    Comparing Costello with Swan, Turnbull said this

    there was nothing like the thoughtless orgy of frenzied spending and borrowing that we have seen under Labor“

  324. Turnbull:

    ”The reality was inevitably the surpluses came in – in those last three years much bigger than forecast – so the government was presented with a lot more money at the eleventh hour, as it were.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/turnbull-we-made-economic-mistakes-20120419-1xa2d.html

    So what is Turnbull saying? That they MADE the surpluses? No, as I read it he’s saying they (surpluses) CAME IN. That suggests an automaticness / inevitability about it. The money was rolling in. The government was “PRESENTED” with the money, to quote Turnbull.

    In fact there was SO MUCH money rolling in the surpluses were, quote: “much bigger than forecast”. They happened to be in the right place at an extraordinary period of the economic cycle.

    The article itself goes on to say:

    Mr Turnbull’s view challenges the Coalition’s formal position that it was its economic management that produced its repeated budget surpluses.

    I paraphrased that down to “Even Turdball admits their measly “surplus” was basically a fluke.” That so rocked the poor old Liberal spinner he’s requoted it three times now.

    Evil people can’t abide truth.

  325. Comparing Costello with Swan, Turnbull said this

    “there was nothing like the thoughtless orgy of frenzied spending and borrowing that we have seen under Labor“

    And comparing the Liberals’ spending with Swan’s and with every government that went before, the IMF report found the Liberals the most wasteful government EVER in our 200 years.

    While John Howard was the most disastrous treasurer ever, with unemployment, interest rates and inflation all in double digits together. Only time that’s ever happened. With debt and deficit that rose steadily meanwhile.

  326. So Neil, you wish to continue talking about debt, but only on your terms. Suspect it does not work that way.

  327. The article itself goes on to say:

    Mr Turnbull’s view challenges the Coalition’s formal position that it was its economic management that produced its repeated budget surpluses.”

    The way I read it that is Peter Martin interpretation. Martin is doing the same thing you did, put words in Turnbulls mouth.

    “the IMF report found the Liberals the most wasteful government EVER in our 200 years.

    Yeah and our own Treasury found a bunch of structural deficits in Costello’s budget. They put these results in the 2010 budget. Turns out it was not true.

    Do you have a brain?? Costello runs 10 surplus budgets out of twelve and he was a wasteful spender??

    All you comments show is that you cannot tell truth from falsehood.

  328. When you’re the highest taxing government in the country’s history, and you sell all the income earning family silver, and let infrastructure run down, starve services and your states of funding, you’d bloody well better run surpluses…

  329. “you sell all the income earning family silver,

    Who sold the Commonwealth Bank, Qantas, CSL??

    Buy the way Mr Bacchus money from the Costello asset sales was not included in the budget as revenue. Costello did this because Keating put the money he got from selling the Commonwealth Bank as revenue in the budget. It was not used to pay off debt but money from Keating asset sales was used for recurrent spending. Something which had never been done before.

    Do you know anything Bacchus???

  330. I know if I want some mindless right-whinger to arc up, all I have to do is mention any of the Howard government’s many, many, many, many….. failures 😆 😆

  331. Bacchus

    You are just lashing out because you cannot win the argument.

    The most profligate in history?? Perhaps you are lying??

    You know when Howard lost the election in 2007 i did wonder what are the most deceitful human beings I have met try to do with the Howard/Costello govt.

    Well they are going to try and discredit them and try and trash their legacy. Evil human beings do this by saying

    1. Costello’s surplus were not really surpluses. They were actually structural deficits. Even though Costello produced $105B in budget surpluses they were really deficits.

    2. Costello’s spending was wasteful spending.

    Evil and deceitful human beings do things like that. They tell lies for political purposes.

  332. Costello on Lateline tonight. Believe he is talking about IR laws. Claims that this PM took us back to the 1980’s. Another lie being put out. I believe.

    I understand the biggest productivity growth that occurred in this nation was under the Accord of the Hawke years.

    Yes, funny, laws that encourage workers and the boss to pull together, leads to greater growth. Wonder why that is so?

    I believe that the years of Workchoices and individual contracts did not deliver any growth in productivity.

    I know I am prejudging what he has to say, but I am sure I am not far off the mark. After all, the man has spent his life, attacking unions and the rights of workers.

    Will someone tell the NT government, that compuslory alcohol rehailitation does not work. What there plan is, jail for being drunk.

  333. Lashing out Neil? 😯

    I’m pissing myself laughing at you, not lashing out. For about six years I”ve posted links to independent sources, proving you wrong time after time. I don’t play that game anymore. You behave like a parody, a joke, so that’s how I will treat you – my source of inane fun. Everyone should have a diversion 😆

    *ding* *ding*

    Who let the dogs out, woof, woof :mrgreen:

  334. The Future Fund is 80 odd billion. Good interview on Norways Fund. Said if they had spent the money, it would have had disasters effect on the economy. Just like what happened here.

    Norway draws its funds from oil. Australia does not, it is from general revenue and surpluses. In other words, the mining industry is getting out of paying their way. Costello is being questioned now.

  335. Bacchus,

    Everyone who shows up the Liberals poor economic record is denounced by Nil as “liars”, “evil”, “bearers of false witness” (looks like we’ve got a religious as well as Liberal crank here), and other projective terms.

    This includes informed commenters on blogs, expert analysts such as Stephen Koukoulas, and even international bodies with no partisan axes to grind such as the International Monetary Fund.

    Everyone is marching out of step except Nil the Liberal parrot 😀

  336. “For about six years I”ve posted links to independent sources”

    Yeah right, Kouk, Martin, Keane are independent.

    By the way Treasury changed its mind on the structural deficit. It now says there was a small structural deficit in Costello’s last budget after saying in the 2010 Budget there were structural deficits in Costello’s last three budgets.

    You can find Treasuries lastest bullshit here. Look at Chart 14

    http://archive.treasury.gov.au/documents/1881/HTML/docshell.asp?URL=04_Structural_Budget_Balance.htm

    And if they did it again they would find a different result. The result depends on how much influence Wayne Swan has on manipulating the results.

  337. “with no partisan axes to grind such as the International Monetary Fund.”

    How much money did Swan give the IMF???

  338. Did they confront lazybones with his record as the biggest-taxing, most wasteful treasurer in this county’s history?

  339. Did they confront lazybones with his record as the biggest-taxing, most wasteful treasurer in this county’s history?”

    Do you have any ethics or morals?? Costello takes govt debt from 18% of GDP to zero. He also puts $80B in the Future Fund.

    Yes Cuppa I really do believe you are nothing but pure evil.

    And I really do mean that. You are a human being with no ethics, morals or conscience.

    You are evil in human flesh.

  340. Neil, no one challenges you about debt. It is just not important. It does not mean what you think it does.

    I really believe you should seek treatment for your obsessive behavior. They are affecting your judgement.

  341. I was just commenting on Cuppas stupid comment. he called Costello lazybones

    Did they confront lazybones with his record as the biggest-taxing, most wasteful treasurer in this county’s history?”

    Costello pays off $96B of debt and had $80B in the Future Fund and he is called lazybones.

    How much debt has Swan paid off. How much of the mining boom has Swan out into a sovereign wealth fund?? You could give Swan $20B free of charge and he would still run a deficit.

    Wayne Swan has totally wasted the biggest mining boom in Australian history. He has not saved one cent of money for future generations.

  342. Wow, Neil, you’re really losing it buddy. Intimating that the IMF is corrupted in one comment, “pure evil in human flesh” in another etc. Clearly the truth rocks you deeply.

    I know it’s hard to have cherished beliefs unseated. But if you want to live in the world of reality you’re just going to have to deprogram and come to terms with the fact that the Liberals are not the economic miracle workers you’ve so long (been led to) believe.

    Now run along, say your nightly prayers and have a good sleep. Then come back tomorrow and apologise for making a goose of yourself.

  343. Yes Cuppa I really do believe you are nothing but pure evil.

    And I really do mean that. You are a human being with no ethics, morals or conscience.

    You are evil in human flesh.

  344. I wonder what the labor losers are saying about the cuts in university funding…. cutting entrepreneurship at the roots…. well done losers !!!!! ……

    All this to fund the failed policies on education – immigration that cost them billions

  345. Good governance is about making decisions about priorities. That is targetting areas of greastest need. No good having the best funded Uni’s in the world, if our schools are not delivering highly educated school leavers.

    They will still fund the present number or more of uni places

    Not the end of the world, if those with wealthy parents get discount because they can pay up front. Is it wrong to expect grants to be paid back, when ample income is being earned to do so.

    No spending in any area should be sacrosant. Labor and the PM said they would find cuts elsewhere to fund Gonski. That is what is occurring.

    We need to see the whole picture, which I believe we are getting tomorrow before one can assess whether what is happening, is the right thing or not.

    All government spending, should be under constant revision. If the money can be used better elsewhere, when did that become a crime.

    The real worry is that this government has been practicing fiscal consolidation now for most of its term. There cannot be much low hanging fruit to pick. Maybe it is time to look at raising taxes. In other words, increase revenue.

  346. Fed Up…. that’s what I am with your labor-obsessed comments… you are deeply rooted in the sickness that this labor incompetents are…

    Killing off the future entrepreneurial souls by taking away their seed funding is taking the potential oxygen out of the economy… Instead of attacking where the REAL cost surpluses are… in the massive bureaucracies…. but no… that tough job they leave to the liberals… so your sick unions can go try to piss on them for doing the right thing… FedUp… GROW UP… it’s not too late

    Please don’t ever again use the words ‘Labor’ and ‘big picture’ in the same sentence … it ruins my appetite ….

  347. Some have a lot to say. Sadly it is mostly abuse, aimed at those that do not agree.

    Once again, what have I said that is so shocking.

  348. Also, what gives some the right to order others as to what they can or not say.

    You would have to look hard, to find where I have abused anyone for having different opinions. I have questioned what they say.

    Yes, when the abuse comes my way, I sometimes return with like.

    Yes, he abuse is getting hard to ignore. I just do not understand why some believe they have the right to abuse others.

    If one does not like what I say, just stroll past. No need to upset yourself by reading.

    Also, I am often the last one standing.

    Time to ease off, and just reply to the comments. Leave the personal attacks out of it. No one appreciates that type of behaviour.

    I also take it as a compliment, when you mouth off. It proves I am getting under your skin.

  349. last time I checked it was a free society…. and the labor mafia hadn’t completely abolished it despite their many attempts at stopping free speech.

    and darling … it takes a lot more to get ‘under my skin’ ….

  350. So you admit, the abuse is deliberate. The question I will ask again, why?

    What have I ever done to you. Yes, you asked a question, I answered it. I can take it, you do not like my answer.

    Yes it is a a free country, but last time I* looked, one is not free to hand out abuse to all and sundry.

  351. 1- I don’t abuse… I give back (semantics I know… I’m learning from you guys never to admit any wrongdoing)
    2- I see labor as a cancer to our economy… and I hate to have to be Cassandra….
    3- I don’t ‘give’ it to all and sundry… only to those that try to get under my skin
    4- you are a good person… I’ve said that before… a pity you have ti so wrong on who you support… but it’s a free country…. 🙂

  352. So Dirk, in your world, if you do not agree with another politics, that gives you the right to abuse and attack.

    Are you saying those with left wing views, in this free land of ours, are not entitles to have a view.

    Dirk, freedom means that one has the right to their own views without harassment or attack.

    Dirk, we do not go out of our way to attack you. We do not visit right wing sites, with the view to sprew out hate.

    All have the right not only to hold differing views, but to have their views respected.

    .
    Why the hate?

    Hate has no place in politics, nor in a civil society.

  353. Despite the knockers the reality is that Treasurer Wayne Swan’s worth his weight in gold

    WHILE political opponents and people shouting on blogs have mocked Wayne Swan’s Euromoney award as finance minister of the year two years ago, there was a big payday from this honour in China this week.

    When Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer Swan accepted his gong from the influential trade magazine in Washington in 2011 he was sitting next to Zhou Xiaochuan, chairman of the People’s Bank of China and one of the key voices in the direction and stability of the international economy.

    Zhou was in Washington to get the corresponding central banker of the year prize from Euromoney and the coincidence cemented a working relationship that had been brokered at meetings of the International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and G20 finance ministers.

    During the ensuing months, Zhou and Swan tossed around the idea of allowing Australian business to directly trade in the Chinese currency, the yuan – a privilege granted to just two other nations, the US and Japan.

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/despite-the-knockers-the-reality-is-that-treasurer-wayne-swans-worth-his-weight-in-gold/comments-e6frerc6-1226617670641

    It is a sad society, that cannot find it in themselves to recognise what the PM hac achieved in the last week. I even heard Greg Sheridan say on ABC radio, that she done a wonderful job.

    No the PM is not perfect, none are.

  354. Fed Up…. where did I say I hate ? (other than hating to be Cassandra)…… please don’t put words in my mouth…. it’s something that I see done by left leaning people.

    By the way …. connecting the AUD to the Yuan is a clever idea and well done to make that happen. So that’s a good one for the government. Of course not all everybody does is good or bad…. and on the whole… this government has made a stack-load more bad decisions that good ones… whether they were ‘captain’ calls or joint calls. Actually the redhead has the same problem as Mr Popularity-seeking (whom she knifed in the back) in that she does things out of the context of consulting with the bureaucracies, and even her ministers and that brings hatred. The only thing that keeps her going is her continuous PERSONAL attacks on Mr Abbott. Diffuse and attack… and most blog sites have become that… attacks on the coalition leader. Not because he deserves i, but because it’s the way in which the left does things….

    I’m not hating that.. but inching closer…

  355. It will be remembered as Turnbull’s day of cringing shame, where even as the most sophisticated, persuasive, and intelligent Lib player he was unable to sell the turkey.

    To be brutally honest I cannot for the life of me understand how the Libs got their first major policy so wrong. They’ve had years to get this right; years of unscrutinised planning and research, and still they produce this disaster?!

    Absolutely incredible!

    If Abbott and the Coalition are such policy disasters in opposition then heaven help us if they are in government. Without doubt on any measure they are the worst opposition in Australia’s history and if it weren’t for the MSM and a handful of the wealthy propping them up, especially Abbott, would have been gone a long time ago.

    When a dyed in the wool far right wing conservative like Ruddock says they will fail on policy, and comments like that above are now common place, even from the right, after their faudband announcement, again without doubt one of the worst policy launches in recent history, then they are fully exposed for the frauds and liars they are, and that’s Abbott’s problem now, he has been exposed as a fraud by this policy announcement.

    Just like insisting on continuously calling boat people “illegal” well after it had been pointed out to him they are not illegal, and he agreed on air that they weren’t illegal, his constant rounds of the lie of the NBN costing $94 billion well after it has been pointed out that is a lie is telling of the moral decrepitude of the man, and it is being sheeted home to Abbott, as his lie about the cost of his own woefully inadequate and terribly framed broadband policy, so aptly named fraudband.

    It’s not as though Abbott and Turnbull only had a month or so to get their policy together, and it’s not as though they had any other policies to distract them from this one, they have been a policy free zone since the election, unless you want to call Abbott’s past non detailed brain farts policy. They have had as long as the government had to get the NBN together to get their broadband policy together, and what do they present us with? An obviously insincere Turnbull knowing he has to sell a turkey mashing it up and coming out with an underfed diseased fowl that a starving fox wouldn’t eat.

    Shit, if they can’t get one single policy right that is the only one they’ve had to work and concentrate on then they really don’t deserve to govern.

  356. It is absolutely incredible, ME. Your comment hit every nail on the head. Fantastic. Luckily for us we have no access to the egregious Jones & Hadley (& wouldn’t listen to them anyway) but it would have been interesting to hear what sort of spin they put on about this LNP fail fraudband. It is a major crock & a “policy” dud.

    Malcolm Turnbull would be well advised to hide in his well-appointed cave in the Eastern Suburbs of Sydney & ride this one out. As for the dunderhead Abbott he’ll just, blithely & unthinkingly,move on the his next brain fart, all the while lying through his teeth.

  357. please don’t put words in my mouth

    When derk says something like that, it’s probably true it is exactly what he said 😉

  358. I haven’t seen much said here about the University changes, but the only thing I see a problem with is this $900m efficiency dividend. Not too sure how that will pan out, and I am not keen about any money coming from any education.

    As to the scrapping of hte 10% for up front fees, FINALLY. I can’t see it saving money in the long run, but I know when I was at Uni, I HATED that those who could afford it got it cheaper. Not only did they not have to pay the interest on their hex, they also got the bloody course cheaper. That really ‘stuck in my craw’

    And the start up scholarship is long overdue. I don’t know when this stupid idea came in, but I do know two young kids who started their courses, and then stopped them soon after the second semester to go on the dole, and received thousands from this scheme. We said keep it in the bank, cos of course you had to pay it back, you didn’t use it, but, it appears, they just kept it. thousands of dollars just for starting a course, and you only have to stay there, not complete it, to keep this ‘bonanza’. It is a real rort.

    But, as I said, the efficiency dividend is concerning, so will need to look into that a little further. As much as Gonski (or such) is needed, it shouldn’t be at the detriment of higher education.

  359. … only stupid people would think the idea of stifling entrepreneurship good…. or labor people as they have no clue on how to keep an economy going other than with other people’s money (this is perhaps too intelligent for you Tom… so read it twice before you waste people’s time with your dribble again)…

  360. More typical behaviour from the Miserable Liberals. This one from May 2012:

    “Cooked books”: Abbott misleads on NBN
    Delimiter.com.au 03 May 2012

    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott appears to have made a number of mistakes or factual inaccuracies in a wide-ranging speech criticising Labor’s National Broadband Network project, alleging, for example, that the project’s funding was based on “cooked books” and that retail prices would be three times higher than on current broadband networks.

    http://delimiter.com.au/2012/05/03/cooked-books-abbott-misleads-on-nbn/

  361. Sure is typical of the mendacity of the LNP. They forget that to be a good liar you need to have a good memory.

  362. “.On the issue of timing, Shadow Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has repeatedly stated that a Coalition Government would immediately halt construction on the NBN while it instructed the Productivity Commission to carry out a cost/benefit analysis into how fast broadband could be best provided to Australians. This process is expected to take up to a year, potentially significantly delaying the rollout of the NBN in some areas…

    http://delimiter.com.au/2012/05/03/cooked-books-abbott-misleads-on-nbn/

  363. Cuppa. The thing with that lie of $94 billion cost for the NBN is that Abbott and Turnbull don’t apply the same methodology to their own fraudband costings.

    What they have done is take the very worst case in every instance for the NBN but have taken the rolled gold absolute best case for their policy. If the same methodology was applied to the LNP fraudband it would cost exponentially more than the NBN, but for a far worse and inferior service.

    Take one for instance.

    The NBN will roll out about 60,000 service boxes around the country. These boxes have a small footprint, are not complex, are easy to maintain, are not adversely effected by harsh weather and have no power requirements to be hooked to them.

    On the other hand fraudband requires three times more service boxes, they are much bigger than the NBN service boxes, are complex (if anyone has seen a Telstra copper wire service box opened you will understand), they are adversely affected by weather, they require constant costly maintenance and power to be hooked to them.

    The huge cost of the Liberal fraudband service boxes has not been factored into their fraudband policy yet the cost of the NBN boxes has.

    This is shaping up to be one the greatest policy disasters foisted on Australians, though Howard certainly bought out enough of his own disasters.

    My thought is that this, and many of Abbott’s other promises, will be thrown out the moment the shonky pre-ordained findings of his Audit Commission is tabled.

    He will use that as an excuse, just as the crook Newman did in Queensland, to renege on just about every promise he has made, and of course his gormless supporters here will also make the same excuse for him as his lies and failures roll out. On his fraudband he will come out and state that because of the Audit and the extent of the NBN roll out he can no longer bring in his cheaper/faster option and has to continue with the NBN. He must do this because the backlash from his far inferior policy will be too great. When the NBN is completed he will take full kudos for it, just as the National and Liberal members currently are when the NBN is connect in their seats.

    Abbott and the MSM will rewrite history and have him as the instigator and director of NBN, whilst he sells it to Murdoch and a consortium for billions so he can brag he managed to get a surplus.

  364. Mobius, do not you realize it upsets some, when fact and genuine information is given. Makes them very angry.

    Mobius one should get back to mud slinging and name calling.

    Agree with every word you have written.

  365. Hi Mobius Echo,

    Thanks for the knowledgeable and informative comments. Wish you’d write set pieces for the Cafe, The AIMN, Independent Australia etc. Your work is too good to be buried in threads, should be page-headers!

  366. Mobius… you write too much and think too little

    Fool. It’s the exact OPPOSITE of what you say. He writes with knowledge and insight. Your problem, as a sniveling Liberal licker who’d eat your own kind in a moment, is you just can’t abide truth and honesty.

  367. Migs,

    I thinks it’s Abbott’s minders and Spin creators that do most of Abbott’s thinking for him.

    Here is “genius” Abbott, when put on the spot to think for himself.

  368. Mobius is wrong on a number of points….
    The boxes have been calculated as part of the policy (we’re liberals… not stupid labor incompetents, please don’t forget that)
    And let’s also not forget a few FACTS, something you boys and girls are so ‘high’ on….
    1- 75% of people being offered the NBN farce don’t want it…. the market speaks loudly…
    2- the speeds of the liberal solution is at this stage half of the ridiculously high 100 of the labor white elephant solution
    3- labor’s never budgeted this NBN in the first place and does go along by the seat of its pants.. which means that something Rudd said would cost a about 5 billion is now turning out to be 90 billion and counting
    4- the timeframe of the NBN Co keeps being pushed back first with weeks, then with months and now with years…. who knows what’s next
    5- the liberal solution allows for ALL to have fiber optics to their doorstep… but they will need to arrange for it. The stupid labor forces everybody to drive with a ferrari…
    Can’t be bothered to give you more… you’re not worth my thinking too much about this…

  369. Lol, That would be right Migs. 😀

    It would be interesting to draw a flowchart showing the “chain of command” for conservative thought. Plodders like that with us above would be that labelled “Useful Idiots” at the bottom of the propaganda machine.

  370. proof proof proof….. (foaming at the lips)….. my points have been widely publicized in the press (and don’t forget to now ALL TOGETHER jump on the press wagon stating that anybody that proves factual points that are NOT in line with your thinking MUST be BANNED…. because that’s the brave new world of laborism…)

  371. anybody that proves factual points that are NOT in line with your thinking MUST be BANNED

    Dirk, if that were true, you would have been banned long ago.

    But I admit that your suggestion has merit.

  372. Michael – stop your hypocrisy… 1) they don’t need your vote… and 2) you were never going to vote for them anyway…. keep your falsehoods for yourself

  373. Have mostly scrolled the gormless Liberal supporter cuppa, as I know what Dirk has stated supposed facts in the past, and when asked to produce those facts, has come up mindlessly unthinkingly empty.

    I would love for him to show me where in the Liberal policy the costing for the boxes are, including their ongoing maintenance and power costs, you know that electricity that is sky-rocketing under Liberal governments when they promised they would reduce them when in opposition. More lies from the Liberals.

    I would love for him to show me where 75%of the people who have been offered the NBN don’t want it, especially since it’s the same price and sometimes cheaper than ADSL but for a far better and more reliable product.

    I would love for Dirk to show me where Rudd ever said it would cost $5 billion and he repeats the already proven lie of $90 billion. I would like Dirk to come up with the figures that came to that $90 billion (it’s $94 actually) figure. They are so shonky and wrong as to be laughable, and they are being laughed at all over the place.

    If the same costing methodology were applied to the fraudband then it would cost way more than the $94 billion Abbott and Turnbull keep lying about, even after the lie has been pointed out to them.

    And Dirk proves he is an unthinking mindless Liberal zombie troll by repeating that same lie of the $90+ billion.

    I would love for Dirk to list all the Liberal policies that were on time and on cost. We were saying here that when the NBN costing was first announced it would be more expensive and run behind, as that’s the nature of huge projects like these. At least we are honest. Abbott’s fraudband will be no different, it will be late and behind time, and yet in the end cost the consumer more for an inferior product.

    What a JOKE he is, so that’s why I scroll.

  374. factual points that are NOT in line with your thinking MUST be BANNED

    The idiot could be describing Liberal media, such as talkback radio. Call a shock jock to disagree and see how long you’ll last on the line.

    He’s not banned here, so: 1) he’s lying, and 2) Right Wing Projecting.

  375. as I said before Mobius… I don’t have the time to be drawn into your semantics of maniacal details…. since labor never did it… why should all of a sudden ‘we’ have to do it ? hypocrisy as I said before…

    so keep trying and have fun….
    messing with your minds is fun

  376. and cuppa…. you’re still on your average of two message before you use the ‘projecting’ word… you’re a good student…. keep it up young man…

  377. Well, idiot, when you use the Liberal political and rhetorical tactic of Right-Wing Projection I will point it out to the reading audience, and demonstrate how you’ve done it.

  378. cuppa… at least call me an idiot savant… as I know more stuff than you’ll ever know… or is that negative, hyperbolic inter-time projection (a term your labor numb-nut friends could use more often) ….

  379. Ah the sure sign of losing an argument because your lies and distortions have been exposed.

    “I’m having fun messing with you.”

    If you go back to just about every gormless Liberal supporter that’s come across this and the past blogs this one spawned out of, you will find that same statement from them whenever they lose the debate and need to show honesty.

    It has a very familiar ring to it and said in exactly the same way.

    By the way that is the second time I’ve called Dirk out on his lies and asked to provide evidence, which he has refused to do. My very first response to one of his inane statements was fobbed off. And I’m not the only one whose asked for evidence to back up his statements and been refused with the “fun” statement.

    They are so utterly predictable in their lies, hypocrisy and response on being called out on them.

  380. Sure up himself. Messing with his own mind, I would say.

    Just a loud mouth bore, is the only label I would give.

    Does not realize, if we have him here, we do not mind a little sport as well.

    It would be more fun to see decent differing points of view put forwarded, that one could debate.

    That would take real talent.

    It is a pity, that those that come from the other side of the fence are unable to give worthwhile challenge with their comments.

    Suspect any with any real ability, find it too embarrassing to defend anything that comes out of the mouth of Abbott.

    It is hard to defend the indefensible.

  381. see you on Sept 15…. can’t be bothered to talk to inflexible…

    THIRD TIME… CAN SOMEBODY GET ME OFF THIS CONVERSATION PLEASE

  382. And a coward to boot.

    Runs away when losing the argument, but scarpers leaving behind yet another projection as the least flexible poster across the blogs I’ve seen him in has been dirkrossey and the other manifestations of dirk he’s posted under.

  383. I have just noticed, he is the only one around. Wonder what happened to the others.

    Maybe meeting, to get new lines.

  384. See this is how easy it is to bring up facts, yet it’s dirk who says we are inflexible liars and hypocrites. dirkrossey’s statement that 75% of those offered the NBN don’t want it is an out and out lie. So if the evidence for the 75% isn’t forthcoming it’s evidence of yet another projection and inflexibility on dirkrossey’s part.

    Even Catallaxy, a right wing site, says the majority want the NBN.

    The most recent poll I can find, March 18: NBN support rises to 73 percent of Australians

    “An overwhelming body of evidence is gradually being accumulated that Australia’s population as a whole is staunchly in support of the NBN. Views on this matter are not divided; research has consistently shown that the policy is very popular and that most Australians in all areas agree the project should go ahead.

    The fun part is how easy it is to mess with their minds, all you need do is supply facts that are easily and readily available, nothing else.

  385. So lets look at some more facts.

    The opposition state their broadband plan will cost $37 billion. Remember this is now $37 billion that’s not in the budget because after weeks of lambasting Labor for not putting their NBN in the budget nor producing a business plan for it, the Liberals are not putting theirs in the budget nor are they going to produce a business plan.

    That hypocrisy is just for starters.

    If we take their lie of $90 billion for the NBN calculated on a totally different methodology to their own policy, then the Liberal’s broadband will cost around two thirds less. If we are honest and take the real cost blowout of the NBN at around the $50 billion it will cost, then the Liberal’s policy will cost very roughly a third less for a far inferior product.

    Labor’s policy is going to be rolled out to 93% of the population for that cost and the remaining population getting the best wireless and satellite available.

    The Liberal’s policy will be rolled out to 23% of the population with the rest getting inferior copper, standard wireless or what they have now, which for some is nothing.

    So for a third less and a still significant cost of $37 billion, which Turnbull is saying is peanuts, only 23% of the population get to benefit, yet for just a third more nearly the entire population will benefit with far superior technology that will expand well into the future, something the Liberal’s plan cannot.

    Even if we take the proven lie of the $94 billion then the same methodology must be applied to the Liberal’s broadband costings, so they still end up being a third less for an inferior product that will cost far more to maintain, will not be as reliable and will be obsolete in short order. Then because of not bringing in the less obsolescence prone product in the first instance the Australian taxpayers will have to pay far more for the upgrades down the track.

    Every which way you look at it the Liberals fraudband is an expensive turkey.

  386. Business says it will pay four times as much under Coalition broadband policy
    The World Today, Their ABC, 10 April 2013

    The Federal Coalition is pitching may be pitching [sic] its broadband policy as a cheaper option for the taxpayer than the Government’s NBN, but one business based in regional Australia says his company could end up paying four times under the Coalition’s plan.

    The Coalition’s service would also be slower, and that’s also generating concern in the business community, as Ashley Hall reports.

    http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2013/s3733774.htm

  387. Look what I get when I clicked on to the link you provided, dirkrossey who, it seems, has come back to mess with us.

    You are here: Home › Page not found
    Content not found
    The content you are looking for could not be found
    .

  388. Haha. Loser

    I clicked on the link and got this:

    Content not found
    The content you are looking for could not be found.

    Wonder how long you had to search to find that, and why not just go straight to the Australian piece instead of to a geek blog?

    Anyway I did a search of the site and all it does is quote the Australian piece out of context and paragraphs from NBN’s documents, again out of context.

    The updated document states: “Subject to the conditions in this section 3.2, NBN Co will provide to Customer [the ISPs] a Trial Migration Offer Credit for each eligible activation which occurs during the program period.” NBN Co’s document explicitly states that the purpose of the ‘Trial Migration Offer Credit’ is “to encourage higher rates of activation and use” of the company’s services, and that it expects value from the deal to be passed on by ISPs to end user customers – although NBN Co left open in the contract terms how ISPs would choose to do that.

    That is standard commercial practice and the benefit gets passed to the customers. This is happening with current ISP plans.

    Yet polls are showing the 73% of Australians want the NBN, but you said 75% aren’t taking it up when offered but still haven’t shown any proof for that statement, along with the other misinformation in your post.

  389. Mobius-Saddie… just like you I’m trying to find information to suit my needs (just like you and your labor mobs do)… But your labor-controlled browser doesn’t allow you to look at anything BUT labor approved sites… welcome to communism part 1…. the australian labor compost heap.

    Laughable… how controlled you guys are…. and how controlling the labor party is… scary…. for all non-copycats

  390. So the Liberal posts a dud link, accompanied by a lone crowing word: “losers”.

    Click on the link: “Content not found”. Error message.

    So who’s the “loser”?

    The one crowing it.

    More Right-Wing Projection.

  391. Well, that is news indeed. Labor now controls the WWW.

    Suggest the problem is that you have no facts, but lies put out by Abboot.

    I am enjoying listening to the reaction to the PM’s education funding announcements today.

    Also cuckoo land stuff.

  392. The Liberal troll:

    … how controlled you guys are…. and how controlling the labor party is… scary….

    Is this more RW Projection? Consider the following stories about.. you guessed it.. a party in control mode.

    Tony Abbott sniffs the wind and muzzles his front bench
    Abbott’s office tells Turnbull and Julie Bishop not to appear in serious media, tells MPs to avoid unnecessary media.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/commentary/tony-abbott-sniffs-the-wind-and-muzzles-his-front-bench/story-e6frgd0x-1226085894549

    Then there’s this story from May 2011 (my emphasis):

    … former leader Malcolm Turnbull’s perceived criticism of the Opposition’s carbon policy on the ABC’s Lateline program, has forced Mr Abbott to hand down an official edict not to discuss the comments with the media.

    Last Thursday morning, Coalition MPs and senators received an email from chief Opposition whip Warren Entsch warning them against providing running commentary on internal party matters.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/hockeys-fury-flies-in-call-to-abbott-20110521-1eybb.html

  393. Scary, is it not, when we are successful in controlling our own site.

    Scary, when we have answers for their rubbish.

  394. Mobius-Saddie… just like you I’m trying to find information to suit my needs (just like you and your labor mobs do)… But your labor-controlled browser doesn’t allow you to look at anything BUT labor approved sites… welcome to communism part 1…. the australian labor compost heap.

    Laughable… how controlled you guys are…. and how controlling the labor party is… scary…. for all non-copycats

    Laughable?!?! You are the one who is laughable, dirkrossey. Just because you haven’t a clue how to find something on the internet you claim it is because the Labor Federal government is somehow controlling the internet. Tell that to Chrome, IE or FireFox. I found the site on your ridiculous link all right, it was just that there was no one at home, you twerp.

  395. THIRD TIME… CAN SOMEBODY GET ME OFF THIS CONVERSATION PLEASE

    Geez Louise. Just stop posting, you stupid dickhead.

    Miglo, I would encourage you to ban Dirk (probably not his real name), because he has been caught out lying, and having “fun” about it.

  396. just like you I’m trying to find information to suit my needs

    That may be true, the difference is, the information provided by the likes of ME and FU are accurate data, you’re just posting random crap from random crap sites that cannot even get their headlines correct.

    NBN uptake so bad, ISPs offer to pay customers to use it

    That was the headline, the content is different

    initiative which will see it pay retail Internet service providers $108 per end user customer who signs up to the network by the end of June

    http://www.zgeek.com/nbn-uptake-so-bad-isps-offer-to-pay-customers-to-use-it/

    So the NBN is paying isp’s, there is nothing to indicate that the isp’s are paying the customer. Secondly, it is a sales tactic to drive investment. Particularly since this is in the early stages of delivery, and kinks are still being sorted out. But if you are getting your ‘information’ from a site with such classy stories as ‘Attack of the Friday Afternoon Head Fuck’, then that pretty much sums up your contribution.

  397. Just stop posting, you stupid dickhead.

    It would certainly prevent much embarrassment for him if he did 😉

  398. He’s harmless silkworm – got absolutely no substance; just assertions which are 99.98% wrong, direct from Menzies house. As shown above, it’s too easy to refute his BS – lower on the IQ scale than NoS, but with a MUCH bigger ego 😆 😆

  399. Remember when the HFC cables (yes, TWO of them down every street) were rolled out? I seem to remember some interesting deals at the time – free installation, free first month of Foxtel or Optus channels… It’s called marketing 🙄

    At the time, I remember being in a rush to get the cable installed – it HAD to increase the value of the property over those who didn’t have it, and it turned out I could get free BigPond cable installed some years later, as I already had the HFC cable into my house…

    I wonder what effect having the NBN connected to your house will have on relative house values…

  400. 9 April 2013

    Australians demonstrate growing appetite for superfast broadband!
    * Average NBN take up of 34.4% in communities active for more than 12 months!
    * Take up in excess of 50% of premises passed in Kiama NSW and Willunga SA!
    * Fibre experiencing faster take up rate than other broadband technologies

    Take-up Rates for NBN

    Communications Minister Stephen Conroy has released details of the rate consumers are taking up the National Broadband Network, confirming recent reports that in areas where the service has been available for more than a year, one in four premises have elected to connect to the service.

    Senator Conroy said the take-up rate of 25 per cent was superior to the experiences in other countries, including the US, Europe, Singapore and New Zealand, where take-up rates were as low as two per cent.

    Senator Conroy compared the take-up to the roll-out of Verizon’s fibre to the home (FttH) service in the US in 2005. Three years later, it had achieved a take-up rate of 24 per cent. This improved to 37 per cent in 2012.

    He said the average take-up after three years in Europe was 21 per cent, and 20 per cent in Singapore after three and a half years.

    New Zealand has reported a take-up of less than two per cent for its service, in which 76,000 premises were passed by fibre in August 2012.

    “We have not been able to find any jurisdiction in the world that has achieved anywhere near that level of initial success,” Senator Conroy said.

    Sorry – those damned facts again :mrgreen:

  401. Steven dumb-wit Conroy said the take-up was high… so therefore it’s true…. haha…. funnyyyyyyyy

  402. Steven dumb-wit Conroy said the take-up was high

    This from someone who claims others are putting words in his mouth when they copy and paste his words. What Conroy ACTUALLY said. Idiot is far too nice Migs 😉

    Senator Conroy said the take-up rate of 25 per cent was superior to the experiences in other countries,

  403. good result I see…

    Latest Nielsen Poll
    Two party: LNP 57(+1) ALP 43(-1)
    Primary votes: LNP 49(+2) ALP 29(-2)
    Preferred PM: Abbott 50(+1) Gillard 42(-1)

    And please all you losers now sing as one…. “Polls don’t matter… except when labor uses them to knife a sitting PM”…..

    Do facts speak ?

  404. Remember, the Liberals have not won an election since 2004. Whatever outcome we get in September they’re still in trouble.

    1) They lose, they will go bananas (well, even more so).

    2) With the help of the media “they” win, then they’ve got a complete dud as Prime Minister (lol) who will generate a gaffe a day and be a hated laughing stock and disaster for the country, for which the Liberal losers will wear the blame.

  405. and yet another lie from dumb (and thus) left wing cuppa….
    Liberal has won most important elections since 2010….. most states have ditched their incompetent and money wasting (and own pocket filling) labor governments to replace them with sensible and realistic liberal governments.

    And now of course the libs have to do the dirty tasks of bringing budgets back into the black… by cutting slowly away all the excesses of the incompetents….

  406. Now Queensland is singing “Take me back to the Joh days, take me back to the Hinze”

    If you are so fond of maligning politicians rosseydirk have a good look at your luvvies on the right. They are THE “pocket filling” of pocket fillers of all time. Don’t Obeid me either as he was never a true Labor pollie, ever, as he was always only into self-enrichment.

  407. Joy… you’re also a sour loser… you accept the obeid dickhead in your party and let him gladly be the puppet master…. but when HIS corrupt actions are found out… he’s no longer yours… will you do likewise for the likes of gillard when they get found out????

    hypocrites

  408. Don’t put your lying scumbag words in my mouth dick/dirk/whatever . Read what I said you selectively blind twerp.

  409. See what I mean about the dud. The Liberals are going to be sorry if they win with this dud as PM. (Actually, if they do “win”, it won’t be their win, but the media’s because the media will have made it happen for them).

    Dud, Liberal disaster waiting to happen. LOL

  410. cuppa’s projecting again…. haha…. you’re so full of it …just like the journo’s that have infiltrated all news agencies bar a few and that just spit vitriol all over the liberal leader… thank god he’s such a class act and stands heads and shoulders above the labor losers, redhead first…. incompetent as she is… her only competence is to spend other people’s money….

  411. Well, if ever I needed any confirmation that you are suffering from delusional beliefs, duck/dick/dirkrossey/rosey/etc, that last comment just nailed it.

  412. The dud is too cowardly to even face the sycophantic media. He knows, they know and we know he hasn’t got the wit or the honesty to answer unscripted questions. And the Liberals want this tool as their PM. Lol.

  413. cuppa – anything’s better than a lying – cheating – immoral – incompetent redhead…..

    so his leadership and capabilities are needed to root out the rot of unions (that are scared shit-less that he’ll commission a royal commission on their consistent and fraudulent behavior) and the labor party (who has now fallen as low as it can … ohh no wait… there’s a few more % points to go …. loving it..)

  414. Dirk and,

    cuppa – anything’s better than a lying – cheating – immoral – incompetent redhead…..

    Ah the truth revealed our Dirk is into moral outrage due to Australia’s prime minister being an unwed female. And a redhead to boot (Min waves to Jane :D)

  415. More abuse of the taxpayer…

    Their ABC, 24 November 2011:

    Tony Abbott has put money where his mouth is, spending more than any other parliamentarian on phone bills in the first half of 2011.

    The Opposition Leader often tells Prime Minister Julia Gillard to “pick up the phone” and call the Nauru government and Qantas boss Alan Joyce, for example.

    But he’s clearly been making plenty of calls himself, racking up close to $28,000 in telecommunications costs between January 1 and June 30 – about $10,000 more than the second-ranked Barry Haase, a West Australian Liberal.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-24/abbott-racks-up-biggest-parliament-phone-bill/3693244

    Stop the waste, Liberals.

  416. Joy, yes Abbott is a real class act..such as boasting that his daughters are were virgins. That one’s virginity is the greatest gift that one can bestow on a man..not that Abbott’s anyway a sexist..nooo, never.. I actually know of young ladies who have bestowed that gift on many, many occasions..and enjoyed it. 😉

  417. Excellent cuppa!!! That is Tony Abbott distilled to his essence.

    Interestingly enough all his campaigning for Larry Anthony, in the seat of Richmond, shown in the last segment of the video, didn’t help Lazza as he lost to Labor’s Justine Elliot. .First time, ever, for a member of the Anthony political “dynasty”.

  418. Very true, Min. Funnily enough, I find it exceptionally creepy that a father would talk about his daughters’ “virginity” in that fashion. Heck, I find his entire interaction with them very creepy.

  419. Joy, that decidedly unsettling relationship has been previously noted. Putting on my psychology hat for a moment you might like to read the DSM IV, the diagnostic criteria for Morbid Narcissistic Complex Disorder. The sense of self such as idealisation would extend to others which one perceives as part of “self” for example, one’s children. Strangely, people with this disorder often do not extend this onto the spouse who is often seen as an inferior. Hence Abbott’s seemingly contradictory attitudes towards females, they must be his inferior unless they are “perfect”, ie part of his own ego.

    http://www.narcissism101.com/Beginning/dsm_iv.html

  420. Yes, Min, I have seen this & have, indeed, commented on Abbott’s psychopathy before. He certainly does tick many diagnostic boxes for this disorder & the fact he was spoiled rotten, as the only son among sisters, was probably a causative factor. All the more reason for his total lack of suitability as the leader of this country.

    He not only looks awkward interacting with his family but also uncomfortable in his own skin. Makes me shudder to look at him.

  421. Bob Hawke said he’s “as mad as a cut snake”. Paul Keating summed him up as “Truly an intellectual nobody”. There’s also the “Mad Monk” moniker. And what to make of this??…

  422. Joy, as my 89yr old mum says..he gives her the creeps. Abbott’s inability to think outside of himself does indeed make him a poor leader. Abbott only looks comfortable when the centre of attention but extremely uncomfortable when required to “pretend” that he’s with peers.

    Michael’s other topic gives examples of how the Libs continuously contradict themselves which is in good part a direct result of Abbott’s inability to lead – promote “self” yes, lead no. Yes the Liberals have numbers but this is due solely to almost a complete lack of scrutiny of Tony Abbott-potential PM.

  423. Who was it who said “In your guts you know he’s nuts” when referring to Tony Abbott? Think it sounds like Bob Hawke again.

  424. Cuppa, that one is I believe is an example of Abbott’s inability to be able to think outside that which is “perfect” ie that which is happening within his own reality. Old Hawkie has it right.. madder than a cut snake.

  425. Min, your Mum sounds very wise indeed. 🙂 The current LNP opposition is becoming like the mythical many-headed Hydra, all spouting off their own crap. They have forgotten their mantra of speaking with one voice as they are all egotists & believers in their own superiority.

    Tony will have a great deal of trouble herding these cats due to his own failings of narcissism. Only the complicit media lets them all off scot free.

  426. A beautiful takedown. 😀 About 5:50 in, “In your guts you know he’s nuts!” Watch the dud’s reaction. LOL!

  427. *Edited due to personal abuse.

    Albanese will soon be sitting next to the redhead and the other labor (alledged haha) fraudsters and criminals in a jail found out for corruption… (please losers all yank out together and in unison… PROVE IT … GIVE ME THE FACTS)…Told you many times before… you’re not worth it…

  428. How dare you slander me, dick/dirk/berk!!! Go back into your filthy sewer from whence you came!!

  429. Dirk,instead of telling us what to think, do a little history reading. You wil find that crooks abound in all parties. it is the nature of the body.

    What about Torbay. What about Petersen.

    “Power attracts the corruptible. Suspect any who seek it.” – Frank Herbert, Chapterhouse: Dune

    As for the polls, it appears that the PM is stiull unpoopular. Does not prove she is wrong.

    One should listen to interview with Fran this morning ABC radio.

    Could never imagine having such a interview.

  430. you ask for it little joyous coopie….and you deserve to be called out…

    this is another trait of labor and union losers…. they can give it…. but not take it… just look at the redhead…. pissing all over Mr Abbott all the time… and the moment he checks his watch she cries and shrills all over the internet… you learning from her little Joysie ?

  431. Fed Up… stop it… you’re so inconsistent… when it suits you you refer to history… and when it doesn’t you tell people to live in the present… get a life… and learn a bit of consistency… it would help…

  432. Fed Up it proves that the people don’t like what she’s saying and less so what she’s doing… it tells her loud and clear that her tricks (to call for “The biggest change in education history” (read this with a bombastic voice please)) are not working….

    she’s cried wolf once too many… and most people (except the few die hards on this and a few other websites) are fed up with her (pun intended) …..

    So the faster she gets out of our life, the better….for all… so I can tend to my garden more often… and try to earn a bit of money with those organic tomatos (that the wild rabbits seem to love a lot)

  433. There were two other polls during the week, that had the Labor vote up. Those we did not hear much of. In fact, only one came to my knowledge.

  434. I think it was Albanese that said, you know in your guts, he is nuts.

    Not all Labor talents lies in the past.

  435. Thanks Min. I am sure this is not the first time this idiot has been banned, Expect to see “it” back under a new name. Just do nt wait as long the next time. The aim of these creatures are to get banned.

    Personal abuse has nothing to do with free speech.

    The education debate is worth following.

    Do we want the unfair status quo, which was bought in by Howard to move all tyo the pricate system.

    Or do we want a system, that brings all to their full potential.

    As for the Uni cutbacks, there is nothing alarming there.

    The movement of the scholarships to be paid back when one begins earning, is better than Abbott’s intention of doing away with them all to together. As for being able to save money by paying HECs up front has never been really likes. The efficiency cut backs, have been Labor policy from day one for all departments. Cannot see much wrong with that. Surely it should be ongoing that expenditure is revised.

    I will post that interview of the PM this morning with Fran on ABC radio. The PM and her crew are out fighting hard. We should have at least listen.

    What is at risk, is the NBNCo, CEF and a fairer eduction system.

    All will save money well into the future.

    The world we live in has changed dramatically this century.

    We now have a global economy, one we cannot afford to ignore. There has been a great change in the world order. We are now in the Asian century, one that holds great prospects for us.

    I wonder what the reaction to Thatchers death in the UK has unleashed this week means.

    It is not about what we can afford to spend. It is about what we CANNOt afford to spend.

    Time to look at our taxation system, as well as expenditure.

    What is important, is that this PM continue to do what she believes is right.

    If it means Labor loses the election, so be it.

  436. Why is reorganising spending priorities seen as robbing Peter to pay Paul

    Surely this is what prudent governance should be doing at all times.

    The question should be, will the cuts cause harm, iIs the money for the primary schools more important.

    Labor is accused of excessive spending, bit every cut they have made, has been strongly criticized.

    Listening to Milne. One would think that the PM has done nothing re education, since coming into power.

    I see it as due process being followed.

  437. Many thanks Min. 🙂 There was no way Dirk was ever going to listen to reason & he was just a waste of time really, denigrating everyone all the time. . 🙄

    Re “in your guts you know he’s nuts” Anthony Albanese was quoting a Democrat slogan used during the Johnson V Goldwater presidential campaign of 1964. Goldwater was a far right wing conservative Republican & his slogan of “In your heart you know he’s right” was parodied by the ,Democrats to become the “in your guts you know he’s nuts”. Albo was pointing out the similarities of Abbott to Goldwater during parliament QT in Feb ’12 & used that saying on several more occasions over the following weeks. Of course, he is a great performer, both in & out of parliament & great to listen to. .

    There is even an anti-Abbott FB page in that sayings honour:-
    http://www.facebook.com/InYourGutsYouKnowAbbottsNuts

  438. I love hte way dirk came in here, abused everyone, until people got fed up and abused him back. He then cries foul.

    Exactly the same way he accuses the PM of ‘constantly’ attacking abbott. For two years abbott belittled and mocked her in the most disgusting manner an opposition leader has ever done, and, finally, when she calls him on it after he brings her dead father into it, they now start with their little rants like just look at the redhead…. pissing all over Mr Abbott all the time

    It really is pathetic, yet it is a cry taken up by not just ignorant posters, but the msm as a unit. I hope derk is gone, he adds nothing, and has turned this thread into an absolute joke.

    You keep thinking that you can engage these idiots. It isn’t so, they are there to wreck things, that is all they can do.

  439. Fed up, on up front uni fees..this has proven and over a number of years to benefit overseas students in the vast majority.

  440. Very true, Tom R. There does seem to be quite a few of them but when you look closely at their ramblings they all sound the same & react in the exact same way. Attack, smear, put downs are.all they know, much like the LNP really when you think about it. 😆

  441. Tom, he’s gone. Michael and I can stop trolls to a certain extent but some are persistent and devious of course. One of the prime methods of getting around being caught is not only a different email address but by posting from internet cafes. You ask..why bother? Obviously they have a screw or two loose.

  442. Min,@12.15pm Thanks…… my scolling finger was geting sore. They scraped the barrel in placing Dirk, one wonders whom they’ll send in next,…… only to be ripped apart by facts, which of course they will ‘dutifully’ ignor as facts rarely fit their mantra. At least while he was here he showed people what a ‘real’ LNP’er is like….. thanks for that Dirk, your thousand words painted a picture, so you have done some good after all.

  443. LOVO, it’s always always attack the person, provide zero by way of referencing but resort to sarcasm and putdowns. They’re a waste of time and space because basically they are not interested in debating only in trying to deter others from expressing their opinions.

  444. What gets me, they scream free speech, then set out to abuse it.

    One thing for sure, they would ne be behaving that way in the real world.

    It is bullying of the worst type.

  445. it’s always always attack the person, provide zero by way of referencing but resort to sarcasm and putdowns.

    Have you got a link for that? 😉 :mrgreen:

  446. Bacchus. one has to rely on their gut feeling the get when reading the rubbish.

    Just wish they would get some new lines.

    Poor Cory, much be finding the Teaparty tactics are not well received here.

  447. One way to gauge, at least in my opinion is could you say the same thing to a person’s face..without getting snotted. 😉

  448. 😆 Min. Very true indeed. 🙂 See dirk is already plaguing another blog on AIMN with his trash. Fortunately they are on to him.

  449. Maybe this is the poll that wil count in the end. That plus the still very high, up to 30% of undecides.

    “……………..Labor’s national broadband network is more popular than the Coalition’s cheaper version, according to the first national poll on the policies.
    Of those who had heard about the government’s NBN, about 63 per cent of those surveyed supported it, reveals the Fairfax/Nielsen poll of 1400 Australians. However, of those who have heard about the Coalition’s alternative, only 41 per cent back it.
    Support for Labor’s NBN was consistently high across the states with most registering levels of support between 60 and 70 per cent.
    The poll was taken from last Thursday to Saturday, two days after Tony Abbott and his communications spokesman Malcolm Turnbull launched their NBN policy.
    Advertisement
    Labor’s version of the network will cost an estimated $37.4 billion in capital expenditure and involves running fibre optic cables to 93 per cent of homes around the country.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/poll-shows-voters-prefer-labors-nbn-20130415-2huzb.html#ixzz2QWIJMaN2

  450. The Liberal Party has posted an ad on social media linking the arrival of asylum seekers to street crime in western Sydney.

    The banner was posted on the Liberal Party of Australia’s Facebook page yesterday and was ‘liked’ by more than 680 people.

    “Under Labor, crime is out of control in western Sydney,” the ad states.

    “If Labor can’t even control our borders, then how can they control street crime in our suburbs?”

    Accompanying the text is an image of a boat at sea and a picture of police crime scene tape.

    While some comments on the Facebook page supported the ad, others were critical.

    “I’m a Liberal supporter but this advert is awful,” one person wrote.

    “Putting boat people and crime in the same sentence, another Scott Morrison dog whistle,” another wrote.

    Others mentioned that crime in Sydney’s west was the responsibility of Barry O’Farrell’s state Liberal government.

    “Crime in western ….”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-04-15/liberal-party-ad-links-asylum-seekers-to-street-crime/4630088

    I thought we had a coalition government for over the last two years. Why then is the PM being blamed for the above.

    Saying that, the PM has not already put forwarded strong policies, offering to help the states fight crime.

    I take it, the states are going to take up her offer of help.

  451. After listening to Pyne today, it is not negativity that we should be accusing the Opposition of, it is just pure whinging.

  452. Congrats on the troll eviction, Min.
    On their similarities- they certainly point to the trolls being different sockpuppets managed by one or a number of Fat Controllers, with the aims of disruption of discussion and promoting lnp lies.

    It is BECOMING increaingly evident that the lnp are unable to compete on polcy, as this latest “policy” release demonstrates.

    If the lnp were a person, its addiction to unreality, and the associated rejection of reality would be cause of significant concern, to say the least.

  453. Min @10.09am, blood nuts rock! Waves back to Min. 😆

    dirkwhacker, wanker extrodinaire, booted off. Excellent decision, Min.

    I’d like to see the colour of his mug when Ashbygate explodes in the Liars faces. Barrackers everywhere will be scurrying around baking files in fruit cakes.

    I wonder how Liealot will fare trying to campaign from his gaol cell?

    pterosaur1, well said.

  454. SHOUT…… is the cellar open 😆 …..shouting…. we should be screaming…. these people, these trolls, this opposition,.. they place themselves above democracy, above morality, above ethics….above their fellow Australians…… I was going to say ‘their own people’… but thought, ‘thats their ideology in a nutshell’ …. their own people, the supposed elite and their aspiriational hanger ons’…. who continually make the mistake that ‘money is power’, …well, 😛 …….Welcome to the fifth estate 😛 😛 …….now let the ‘shouting continue…. and I’ll have anything other than the Blackberry Nip, Migs’ been saving that for Bacchus 😉 😯

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