Work is killing our weekend or . . . Women and kids kill jobs

big_girl2_pp_pe_peAustralians ranks amongst the hardest working in the first world, ranking fourth for long hours worked among 34 OECD nations.

Turkey ranked No. 1, with almost half its population working more than 50 hours a week. Mexico and Israel followed. The Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Russia had the best work-life balance with only 1 or 2 per cent of employees working very long hours.

And that’s just the blokes, with one in 5 men working more than 50 hours per week.  At least Aussie sheilas are doing it better; or at least better than Turkey or Mexico . . . or are we?

TAKE a bow, ladies – Australian women are among the world’s hardest-working on the home front.

A report has found that of females in 29 countries, Australians rank fifth in the number of hours each day spent doing unpaid work.

Although this article from the Herald Sun treats the issue somewhat flippantly, unpaid work does mean one hell of a lot more than running the vac’ around the lounge room, it’s the carers, the volunteers without whom organisations could not exist . . . you know who you are.

Australian women also have the least time to follow leisure pursuits.

It will come as no surprise to anyone that “WORK is killing off the great Australian weekend and starving kids of family time.”.  Below of course pertains not just to the traditional family, mum, dad and kids but to all working people who are socially deprived due to the impossibility of anything resembling a life/work balance.

Australians are now three times more likely to work weekends than they were 20 years ago – one in three workers now spends Saturday or Sunday on the job.

New research exposes the true cost of weekend work, as it steals leisure time with friends and family all week long.

When fathers work weekends, mothers get less quality leisure time with their children as they catch up on chores.

But when women work Saturdays, the blokes spend more time with their mates.

Weekend work has nearly trebled over the past 20 years, from 12 per cent of workers in 1993 to 33 per cent today, Australian Bureau of Statistics data shows.

Half of all business owners, 42 per cent of contractors and 30 per cent of employees now spend their weekends in the workplace, rather than the backyard or beach.

And one in four workers is on call or on standby, as technology contaminates leisure time with messages and emails from the boss.

The Social Policy Research Centre at the University of NSW has calculated the “knock-on” impact of weekend work on leisure time, by analysing ABS data sourced from time-use diaries filled in by more than 4000 workers.

When men work weekends, the researchers found, “this comes at the cost of mother-child leisure time”.

The study’s lead author, Associate Professor Lyn Craig, said weekend work was bad for family bonding, friendship and community ties.

More people are working shifts because lots of jobs are becoming 24/7, like retail,” she said yesterday.

“And workers are having their weekends encroached upon more and more by technology, so it seems harder to have a boundary between work and home.

“It’s not good for family bonding, to not have parents available to their kids when their kids are available.”

The research shows both parents spend less quality time with their kids if either mum or dad works weekends.

The above article is from new.com, and published in August last year.

This is the reality of working Australia.  Also to be kept in mind is that according to the ABS,One quarter of all employees earned $588.00 or less“.

More female employees were employed part-time (52.3%) than full-time (47.7%). Average weekly total cash earnings were $1,278.40 for full-time females and $562.40 for part-time females.

Eric Abetz:  “We risk seeing something akin to the wages explosion of the pre-accord era when unsustainable wage growth simply pushed thousands of Australians out of work.”

Steven Walters, a chief economist with JP Morgan, says “. . .wages growth is the lowest it has ever been.”

Prime Minister Tony Abbott is under pressure from his backbench to address ”job-killing” weekend and holiday penalty rates, with 10 Coalition MPs telling Fairfax Media the controversial issue cannot be ignored.

Does this make any sort of sense?  Since the Murdoch media installed Tony Abbott as Prime Minister, Abbott’s Mr. No persona has been reinvented as Mr. Slash and Burn with thousands of jobs thrown in the dust bin in pursuit of Abbott’s ideologies. Who exactly is the job-killer Tony?

Yet according to Abbott and Abetz it’s the kids, the women trying to support themselves and their families . . .and who are prepared to work weekends and holidays, and while knowing that they must sacrifice valuable family time in order to achieve this; it’s they who are in the “job-killing” business.

Yes you have it, according to the Liberals, Australians who work some of the longest hours of all OECD countries, and with the worst life/work balance, especially pertaining to women who seem to have ZERO time to do anything else except work . . . paid and unpaid; these same hard-working Aussies according to Abbott and Abetz are “in the job-killing business”.  Clearly the solution is to pay them less.

295 comments on “Work is killing our weekend or . . . Women and kids kill jobs

  1. It is all the time wasting with forms , more forms , red tape , yet more red tape
    Oh! Forgot that favourite ‘tick all the boxes’.
    I’ve spent years doing that.
    As for penalty rates – noticed how many businesses remain shut on Public
    Holidays, why is that?

  2. “[i]As for penalty rates – noticed how many businesses remain shut on Public
    Holidays, why is that?[/i]”

    Did you listen to Insiders this morning. ACTU guy (Oliver) said if you did not pay penalty rates humgenous amounts of money would be taken out of the economy.

    What the retard failed to realise was that if restaurants did not have to pay penalty rates on Saturday and Sunday more restaurants would be open paying more people.

  3. Because they can afford to have the time at Home with Their Families Its about Families surviving and with all this Job and entitlements and Cuts to genuine welfare needy people , It should not be all about Screwing the Little people it should be about creating a fair and decent society, This LNP government is embarrassingly Bad I Notice Tony is doing any bike rides anymore, Because he was found out Claiming allowances When He was giving the Appearance of doing it Soley for Charity ,

  4. Surrounded By Ginas family already, Go and Live in Bangladesh , Because that’s the world people like you are trying to create, Obviously Gina needs a good feed

  5. Voyager and Neil must be waiting for you Michael to raise a talking point, I’m still waiting to hear about The Good news about Abbott from these two

  6. Because they want to VOYAGER and give themselves and their families some holidays.

    I guess if you had your way everyone would work 24/7 for a pittance, but of course you wouldn’t do that. Those who demand lower wages and reduced conditions or there abolition are usually privileged, on high income and with plenty of time off for their families. They call for the suppression of workers purely out of greed so they can take more expensive holidays and expensive leisure for themselves and their families. When they are asked to sacrifice they scream like stuck pigs calling out class warfare.

    As for filling out forms. Years, really? My guess is that if you actually sat down and clocked the amount of time filling out forms it would not come to years.

    And are you counting all forms, or is it just the usual right wing bash in being very selective here? What do you want, that businesses do whatever they want with no accountability, pay no taxes, meet no regulations, screw whoever whenever etc.?

    Wow with that attitude or implementation you have just advocated the death knell of most of the small businesses out there as the big boys roll right over them. By the way last year more small businesses were being owned and run by women than men.

    Have you given up all your rates and conditions that were obtained by worker unions?

  7. “Because they can afford to have the time at Home with Their Families Its about Families surviving and with all this Job and entitlements and Cuts to genuine welfare needy people

    No it is not.

    Nobody is saying that if you work 5 days from Monday-Friday you should not get penalty rates if you work on Sat/Sun.

    Since times have changed what people are saying is if Sat/Sun is part of your 5 day working week why should you get penalty rates??

    Many more business could open on Sat/Sun if they did not have to pay penalty rates.

    This would of course effect students who need this money to survive but not families.

  8. How can anyone TRUST the LNP Of work relations These people are Lining up just below the surface Egging Tony and His Cohorts to do yet another Backflip Fot the Good of the Country, Even with the Master Flipper telling everyone ” Dead,Buried and Cremated,” He has no credibility at all Having been found out with un told Lying and His fabrications of the Carbon tax damage to Holdern, Toyota, Alcoa, SPC, Qantas all their CEO’S Told us it wasn’t a Factor Denying in Parliament that there had ben no contact with quantas They stil Persisted with there Lies, YOU Followers should feel the shame of their Portrayal of a decent Government

  9. Soon on Public Holidays you will not be able to get a feed or a beer.
    Notice the number of pubs that shut as well.
    ME – don’t show stupidity and ignorance – that is the Labor Way of course.
    Business shuts because they loose money. Get caught by Red Tape. Because of
    Dim Dims like you , business has to print a Special Menu on Holidays.
    It is illegal to have a note at bottom of menu saying 15% surcharge applies on
    Public Holidays. Because ME could not do a mental calculation to add 15%, the
    Menu must show the all up price. Another cost print a second lot of Menus.
    Pay everyone double not even ME could survive that subjection.
    Makes Australia a sick joke! Must be Changed!

  10. Neil,

    Many more business could open on Sat/Sun if they did not have to pay penalty rates.

    This would of course effect students who need this money to survive but not families.

    I look around our local shopping centre and very few businesses are closed. Perhaps it’s the boss who doesn’t feel like getting up at 6am seven days a week in order to open up just on the off chance that someone might like to buy a pair of socks on a Sunday afternoon. Most businesses who do not open weekends do so simply because theren’t enough customers to make it worth their while.

    Larger businesses Coles, Woolies, Maccas etc of course open 7 days a week and it’s these which provide the majority of the employment during unsociable hours. Yes students need money to survive, but so do families. With the gross unaffordability/unavailability of child care, there is no other option but for parents to take it in turn to work. This generally means that mum works weekends, not because she wants to, but because she has to.

  11. It’s not just about being able to buy a beer and a pie and chips…it’s our ambos, nurses..

    Ambulance paramedics commonly work a mix of 14-hour and 10-hour shifts on a roster four days on and four days off taking in nights and weekends. For this they receive a fixed penalty of 26.7 per cent. Without that penalty, no one could afford to support a family, Bendigo paramedic Brett Adie told us recently.

    http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-costs-of-not-paying-extra-for-weekend-and-night-work-20140213-32jzg.html#ixzz2vQd5ginV

  12. If a business can’t afford to pay the going rate of pay, it should not open. They can’t expect low paid workers to make up for their business ineptitude.

    If people are not willing to pay extra get a feed or a beer on a public holiday, they should stay home and have a sook, like voyager and neil…

    Print a special menu” Are you for real? 😯 Cost is negligible – one off, reusable next Sunday or public holiday 🙄

  13. Oh poor wallow in ignorance VOYAGER. Of course your solution is to pay everyone nothing and force them to work anyway so all these businesses can stay open making large profits for themselves.

    Because when you break it down that’s what you right wingers are advocating, that Australian workers get paid the same or less than their low paid overseas counterparts, or better still just bring in the low paid workers from overseas and have it so they get no conditions.

    The same right wingers who spout racial slurs and denigrate them, want them to come in their droves as long as they do so on the condition they get paid a lousy pittance of a wage with no penalties.

    You really are ignorant if you believe printing menus sends restaurants broke, and what about all those many restaurants around Australia that thrive and have done for a long time now? How come they can do it but it seems you in your little world say they can’t.

    Businesses close for many reasons, most within their first two years and most non-chain restaurants in their first year. But when you boil it down the largest cause of business failures isn’t red tape, that’s way down the bottom and an annoyance, not regulations like unfair dismissal laws, which came out 12th in a list to 15 things businesses said were an encumbrance, with Howard’s GST being #1, but the biggest cause is failure by management, just as it is for productivity.

    Yet in all the rants against Labor and unions the one thing you never ever see the right wingers do is criticise management and their failures. Why is that?

    What makes Australia a sick joke is the likes of you VOYAGER who are blind to real failures in this country and blindly follow those failures without question.

  14. “If people are not willing to pay extra get a feed or a beer on a public holiday, they should stay home and have a sook, like voyager and neil…

    Obviously you do not own a business. Labor even stopped schoolkids earning money for 3 hours work/week.

    I guess you are also retired and have no idea about how tough business is doing.

    “How can anyone TRUST the LNP Of work relations”

    Maybe because under Howard unemployment went from 8% to 4%.

  15. @Voyager. Lol at pubs being closed on weekends. Yes the day where they make the most money is the day they close because they can’t pay staff extra. Makes sense.
    Funny how Liberal governments insist that when businesses make more money (by paying less tax) there will be a flow on effect, and the workers will earn more. Yet on weekends where food and retail make the most money, they can’t pay staff more? So much for the flow on effect.

  16. “”One quarter of all employees earned $588.00 or less”.

    So kids delivering newspapers should be paid this ??? The local chick @ Maccas too ??? Joe Hockey is right – leftards expect to be paid for nothing.

  17. No neil, I don’t run a business – never have, never will…. But i do have two very close friends (known one for almost 50 years, and the other for about 40). Both run successful small businesses which are doing very well thank you very much. Why? Simply because they know what they’re doing – providing a superior service to their customers at a price those customers are quite happy to pay. Neither of them is the cheapest option in their field of expertise either. Both of them pay above award wages to their very loyal employees too.

    It’s usually the competence of the owners/managers of small business that makes the difference – not a race to the bottom by paying some workers less than others…

  18. It’s usually the competence of the owners/managers of small business that makes the difference

    Bit simplistic Bacchus. You may be talking about high quality human beings with a lot of talent who could make it no matter what business they are in.

    What about most of the human race who are average and are doing it tough.

    You don’t give a stuff. Just more ALP bullshit.

  19. Qantas, Ford, GM, Toyota, SPC, Alcoa etc pay above award wages too instead of those set out in the respective model awards for their industry – just sayin’.

  20. @Bacchus Virgin Australia pays their trolley dollies between $40,075 and $71,548, whereas a Qantas hag working 38 hours per week would earn between $116,050 and $154,088 a year under their respective EBAs. Why the huge difference ????

  21. On #theirABC news last night for International Womens’ Day they noted that more than 50% of small businesses are owned and operated by women. Bacchus is denigrating women. And yes, I was a small businessman – had a tax & accounting practice in the Central West of NSW.

  22. neil’s answer when he’s got no basis to argue from: “Just more ALP bullshit.” 😆 lol: lol: lol: lol:

  23. Cadbury’s pay higher wages than SPC palmersaurus, just saying.

    For the Virgin-Qantas pay scales, would you have a source please?

    And why do you have to denigrate and use abusive terms for just about everyone and everything in your posts?

  24. I do a lot of penalty rate work. From experience you do wind up time poor, and do lose some social life, but the money is good. In my mind I wouldn’t work weekends if the penalty wasn’t there. I don’t know where they will get all these workers willing to work the same rate for weekends. In my mind that is actually the end of the working weekend. That’s what the penalty is there for, to protect it. I think it’s a little bit more colourful than black and white. It’s not as simple as one or the other. Because you have all these different interests. If you think the worker should get paid the same if they don’t work Monday and Tuesday, then maybe the business should close Monday and Tuesday too. If they want to be open weekends and not pay penalty rates then they should forfeit two days business somewhere else, too.

  25. Mö,

    The answer might be to ignore it and it will go away. The rabid redneck bigot is beneath contempt and not worth engaging with. Already well documented that it just makes $#!t up and never provides links to assertions – most likely because it’s BS. 🙄

  26. Following Gina Rinehart hitting out at welfare recipients and workers penalty rates, our columnist Paul Syvret says affluent Aussies who rail against generous welfare schemes aren’t ones to talk… http://ow.ly/umU1n

  27. This is always brought down to retail and it is stirred up by rabid right wingers like Neil of Sydney. How about thinking about the people looking after your aged parents or your kids with disabilities who are in homes because their families can’t look after them? All these people are on very low wages as are nurses and other emergency services when you take into account the lives of the people they hold responsibility for. It isn’t all about a cup of coffee although they are paid lowsy wages too. Would some of you want to climb out of bed at 5am to go and wipe people’s bottoms for no extra on Saturdays and Sundays so the people can be showered and ready for their families essential 15 minute mid morning visit so they can think big of themselves.

  28. If my boss wants me to work O/T I consider what my family and I are up to that week-end first,(I’m a single Dad). If I can change the ‘outing’ or woteva to another time, I do…. and then proceed to do the O/T for the extra $. If she, my boss, didn’t pay penalty rates for O/T then see ya later alligator, I’ll be with me kids and I’ll see my boss on Monday after having the weekend off. ( P.S. I work a 9 day F/N with every 2nd Monday off, …luv dat long W/E every 2nd week 😉 )
    No pay-ee, no me-ee.
    And I agree with Bacc’s, don’t engage the fainéant dronish “duuurrrr” aka Palmersorearse (tm LOVO). 😀 ……he’s such ‘orrible little fellow. 👿

  29. “All these people are on very low wages as are nurses and other emergency services

    We are not talking about people who work 5 days/week and then do overtime on the weekends.

    We are talking about casual workers who do part time work on the weekends. The accusation is lots of companies shut down on the weekend because of penalty rates.

    By the way Rob- how many people do you employ??

  30. Mobi

    Qantas agreement:

    http://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/agreements/fwa/AE401775.pdf

    Page 89 of the EBA dicloses that Qantas trolly dollies are paid between $58.73 and $77.98 per hour – not bad for serving sandwiches and Coca-cola.

    Virgin agreement:

    http://www.fwc.gov.au/documents/agreements/fwa/AE888327.pdf

    Interesting how some Aussies are wiling to work for $100,000 less than these overpaid Qantas trolly dollies for doing the same work, and with a smile instead of a growl.

  31. Abolish all Public Holidays that solves one argument.
    Australia. 4 weeks paid holidays + 171/2% loading
    + 8 Public Holidays per year
    Try any other Economic Powerhouse that does this?
    Tourism a tremendous Industry (without digging a hole and exporting resources)
    but very cost sensitive.Ramp it up or Ramp it down your call , Labor cost
    component integral to the success or failure of the whole Industry.

  32. Matt – just because you wont work weekends without penalty rates doesn’t mean others are like you. They should be free to take your job for less pay and you can enjoy a latte without the worry of work.

  33. @Bacchus – all my posts have been backed up with fact from various websites, unlike you. You spew few Edited due to personal abuse with no facts – just laftard venom.

  34. Rob – I never got penalty rates for getting out of bed at 3.00am to milk cows on the farm next door. And I dont think I got penalty rates as a kid at Kentucky Fried Chicken as it then was – I think I got $3 per hour on Sundays back in the 70s

  35. Then post your links, it’s not hard.

    Why should anyone take the word of a raving nutbag wingnut when lying and deceit along with projection are their core?

  36. Lovo – try working for yourself , you would not even make half time
    ( I mean you would not make 40 minutes ) You seem to have a poor attitude
    to work and a highly inflated opinion of your worth.
    I’m sitting working now , do so most Sundays and guess what no double time etc.
    And the Super Sludges want to kick the shit out of me , long live hard work,
    free enterprise and God I love my workers who have the same attitude .
    May Bill Shorten’ s hemroid burst and hemorrhage, taking out the AWU in the
    clean out .

  37. VIPA is the union that represent Virgin.

    In an embarrassment to Qantas they got their pilots a 28% pay rise whilst Qantas was haggling over 2.5% over three years.

    VIPA the union representing Virgin Australia and V Australia pilots, has secured pay rises of up to 28% for its members at Virgin, with its first enterprise agreement.

    The agreement took almost two years to negotiate and offers significant improvement over the current common law contracts members were under.

    VIPA is the largest pilot union in the Virgin Australia group and the agreement is to be voted on by pilots over the next two weeks.

    VIPA Executive Director Simon O’Hara said today that the union hoped the agreement was the beginning of a professional and collaborative approach with Virgin regarding industrial relations issues with pilots.

    “VIPA acknowledges that this good result would not have occurred if not for the imprimatur of the CEO, Mr. John Borghetti. There is no doubt that Mr Borghetti’s arrival ushered in a new era of industrial relations within the Virgin Australia Group.”

    “VIPA supports the new CEO and also his mature approach to organizational and cultural change.”

    In addition to the pay rise, the agreement provides for a comprehensive system for consultation between management and pilots, the introduction of a credit system, the cornerstone of this agreement, that measures overtime and work performed, a new insurance system for pilots and back-pay pay rises from 1 July if the agreement is voted up.

    “This document represents the framework for the future and as such it is critically important that we achieved good structure and robust processes to underpin the Industrial relationship moving forward,” Mr O’Hara said.

    Not only that Virgin made a commitment to Australian jobs whilst Qantas was attempting to offshore them.

    The ‘stark’ differences are in the relationship between the Virgin Australia management and its pilots and engineers, where CEO John Borghetti is committed to increasing the use of Australian based employees to the maximum possible level, while Qantas is determined to shift jobs and assets off-shore and rotate through Australia flight and cabin crew paid under the terms and conditions of the labor laws of which ever country its foreign entities are based.

  38. Wow! Palmersaurus do you ever read what you type before you post it? Surely there could not possibly be some one so full of hate, contempt and greed as yourself without taking the piss. Seriously this is a Gee up isn’t it?

  39. “In an embarrassment to Qantas they got their pilots a 28% pay rise whilst Qantas was haggling over 2.5% over three years“.

    And after a 28% pay rise i bet you Virgin pilots are still payed much less than Qantas

    “Not only that Virgin made a commitment to Australian jobs whilst Qantas was attempting to offshore them
    .”

    Show me the numbers. I bet you Qantas does more maintenance in Australia than does Virgin.

  40. And the reason you need to supply your source on Flight Attendant wages as the figures you gave are meaningless without an apple for apple comparison.

    From the Flight Attendants Association website.

    Here’s some more variables that can affect hourly rate for crew and more importantly your after tax take home hourly rate:

    • Origin of aircraft – under what orators certificate does it operate?
    • Where do you call home, ie in what country are you employed in?
    • Do you fly on a single aisle aircraft or wide-body?
    • Do you fly domestically or are you international crew?
    • Are you a dedicated language speaker other than your mother tongue?
    • Are you paid allowances?
    • Are your allowances paid in cash and in what currency?
    • Do you receive a grooming allowance?
    • Do you receive a travel allowance and is it tax free?
    • Is your base wage tax free?
    • Are you a flight attendant or senior flight attendant (on the day of operation)
    • Are you a Cabin Manager?
    • Do you work on a single crew or multi crew aircraft?
    • Does your company supply accommodation at your home base?
    • Does your company share in any accommodation savings?
    • Do you participate in a company share scheme?
    • Is your company a LCC?
    • Is your company a legacy airline?
    • Does your company outsource employment?
    • Is your flight attendant work force under the same work contract?

    On top of that in Australia there are up to four different contracts with different hourly rates and conditions that vary between Qantas, Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger. One airline can load more onto one part of a contract than another, but the other can load it onto a different part.

    Also airlines like Virgin give grooming allowances that allow attendants to buy expensive products at company expense and this can come to several thousand dollars, and that varies widely between airlines.

    So unless you can prove you’re comparing apples with applies it is not unfair to assume bullshit.

  41. Voyager cry me a friggin river buddy. Your sitting at work at the moment. Do you want a medal? Just because your family probably prefers you at work than home doesn’t mean we all have to suffer from the “Get a life doldrums.” WANKER!

  42. And to top it off Qantas now source jobs outside of the EBA at a cheaper rate, using third party agencies to do the work. So to claim Qantas wages is the factor in their downturn is specious. Especially when it’s been shown that the biggest factor in Qantas’s loss was it heavily subsidising Jetstar’s overseas operations. Joyce’s brainchild and complete failure.

    The wage that’s the real problem behind Qantas is all Joyce’s.

  43. Yet again an example of management totally screwing it but making the workers pay for their incompetence, and applying a double jeopardy by also using the management failure as a cudgel to demand lower worker wages and less conditions for them whilst substantially increasing their salary packages and extras.

  44. Try any other Economic Powerhouse that does this?

    Well actually voyager:
    Statutory minimum employment leave

    Austria – 5 weeks
    Belgium – 20 days, premium pay, plus 10 public holidays
    Brazil – 30 days with one third extra pay, plus 11 + local holidays
    Bulgaria – 20 working days and up to 12 days national and public holidays
    Denmark – 25 work days, plus 9 public holidays
    France – 5 weeks +up to 22 days of RTT (Reduction of Working Time) for the employees that choose to work more than 35 hours per week – the “limit” is 39 per week, plus 10 public holidays
    Germany- Up to 30 days plus 9 to 14 bank holidays.
    Ireland – 4 working weeks (20 days if working full-time), plus 9 public holidays
    Japan – From 10 working days for the first year to 20 days for the 6th year, plus 15 public holidays.
    Poland – 20 working days per year during the first 10 years of employment and 26 working days thereafter. Plus 13 days of public holidays.
    Russia – 28 calendar days (52 in extreme north regions), plus 14 public holidays
    Spain – 22 work days, not including 14 public holidays

    And then we come to the right whingers’ wet dream:
    United States – 0 days; None

  45. Edited due to personal abuse.. – why do you think there are different hourly rates. My FACTS come straight from the Enterprise Bargaining Agreement. It is the law that both Qantas and Virgin must follow and pay. No amount of bullshit by you can change the fact that Qantas trolley dollies are paid twice what Virgin flight attendants receive. !!!!!!

  46. Still no source palmersaurus so what are you hiding? If it comes straight from the EBA then just point me to where you read them please?

    Surely it can’t be that hard?

  47. Here you go again Edited due to personal abuse @Möbius Ecko. The Qantas audited accounts for the six months ended 31/12/13 (page 26) show that:

    Jetstar Group lost $16 million
    Qantas International lost $262 million.

    Dont let facts get in the way of your corrupt union/ALP filth.

  48. Also Flight Attendants are only a part of an airline’s workforce.

    Are the other EBA’s from pilots to the most menial ground staff directly comparable as well?

    What about management pay?

    Virgin has been heavily criticised for paying its management too high, with Borghetti’s fixed component about 70% higher than the standard for CEO’s in similar positions.

  49. Bacchus – I have never met so many idiots on a website. Shrill, deceitful and lacking in sensible discussion using FACTs like used by me and Neil of Sydney.

  50. Please palmersaurus, Qantas has been subsidising Jetstar in numerous ways, including fuel, Qantas club and the free use of Qantas facilities.

    A big chunk of Qantas’s loss was it’s propping up Jetstar.

  51. Edited due to personal abuse @Möbius Ecko. The accounts are audited – fuel is allocated to the respective aircraft, and thus airline. As for Qantas Loyalty, a separate division, it made a $146 million profit for the 6 mths. Domestic made a profit of $57 million.

    Why dont you do some research before spewing out your bullshit – you’re Edited due to personal abuse as Shorten. He still thinks he’s stopping pig iron going to Japan.

  52. Matt and,

    I do a lot of penalty rate work. From experience you do wind up time poor, and do lose some social life, but the money is good. In my mind I wouldn’t work weekends if the penalty wasn’t there. I don’t know where they will get all these workers willing to work the same rate for weekends.

    Precisely my thoughts also. The unemployment rate isn’t yet high enough to start taking good workers for granted..but perhaps this is what the Libs are counting on.

  53. Those Qantas pay rates on page 89 are Part 1 for Qantas employees, and not the base rate, which is on page 88. Page 89 is additional under Clause 11.2.3 quoted below.

    In addition to the payment in clause 11.2.1 above, where an employee’s flight duty period is planned as a single sector operating flight duty period in excess of 14 hours, in accordance with clause 19, he/she must receive the payments as prescribed in Table 2 of Appendix 1 for each actual hour of duty in excess of fourteen hours prorated for time less than one hour.

    The Virgin EBA is for long haul International crew, not domestic and is 2011 as compared to Qantas’s 2013. As of April 2013, the latest info I stopped at, as this was wasting so much of my time, there were a whole slew of conditions and pay improvements won by the TWU the for Virgin employees, which are not in the EBA you sourced.

    My original point was and still stands. You’re not trying to compare apples with apples and until you do then what you contend is bullshit as usual. Plus you still haven’t provided a source for pay discrepancies between airline flight attendants, though you do like to hurl abusive names at them, as your lowbrow want in many things.

  54. So baggage handlers are paid less. I’ll take your word but if you have the source why not provide it? Again it appears as though you’re attempting to hide information and thus it’s fair to call bullshit.

  55. Is there a reason the bile from palmersuarus is not moderated. He/she/it is not offering an opinion, they are simply spewing juvenile personal
    Abuse.

  56. And I just found a source from the TWU saying they are comparable between both airlines in a letter correcting inaccuracies from the Sydney Morning Herald. No surprise there.

    As the National Secretary of a Trade Union representing thousands of Qantas workers, it is important to correct a number of inaccuracies relating to Qantas Baggage Handlers in an otherwise interesting article by Michael Pascoe (Qantas: who ran down the roo?). Firstly, the rates paid for baggage handlers, at $756.42 per week for crew with, on average of at least 4 years experience, are far below the average Australian weekly wage, which according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics stands at $1,404 dollars. Secondly, rates for Qantas baggage handlers are not excessive- in fact they are comparable to those of Qantas’ major competitor, Virgin.

    But again this doesn’t compare apples with apples as Qantas most likely have higher additional charges on them than Virgin do purely because they have been in this IR regime much longer than Virgin.

    But this is changing because Virgin employees are demanding and in many cases getting increased pay and conditions.

    What we really need is the average wage cost across the board for all airlines in Australia, including management wages. Or a per capita average worker’s wage with all payments and conditions.

    As I haven’t got days to chase this up unless you can tell me the annual average wage bill for Qantas as compared to Virgin?

  57. Bold mine.

    Senator Xenophon Speech in Parliament – Hansard 23 Aug 2011 Senator XENOPHON (South Australia) (19:37)

    I rise to speak tonight on an issue that is close to the hearts of many Australians, and that is the future of our national carrier, Qantas. At 90, Qantas is the world’s oldest continuously running airline. It is an iconic Australian company. Its story is woven into the story of Australia and Australians have long taken pride in the service and safety standards provided by our national carrier. Who didn’t feel a little proud when Dustin Hoffman uttered the immortal line in Rain Man, ‘Qantas never crashed’?

    While it is true that Qantas never crashes, the sad reality is that Qantas is being deliberately trashed by management in the pursuit of short-term profits and at the expense of its workers and passengers.

    For a long time, Qantas management has been pushing the line that Qantas international is losing money and that Jetstar is profitable.

    Tonight, it is imperative to expose those claims for the misinformation they are. The reality is that Qantas has long been used to subsidise Jetstar in order to make Jetstar look profitable and Qantas look like a burden.

    In a moment, I will provide detailed allegations of cost-shifting that I have sourced from within the Qantas Group, and when you know the facts you quickly see a pattern. When there is a cost to be paid, Qantas pays it, and when there is a profit to be made, Jetstar makes it.

    But first we need to ask ourselves: why? Why would management want Qantas to look unprofitable? Why would they want to hide the cost of a competing brand within their group, namely Jetstar, in amongst the costs faced by Qantas?

    To understand that, you need to go back to the days when Qantas was being privatised. When Qantas was privatised the Qantas Sale Act 1992 imposed a number of conditions, which in turn created a number of problems for any management group that wanted to flog off parts of the business. Basically, Qantas has to maintain its principal place of operations here in Australia, but that does not stop management selling any subsidiaries, which brings us to Jetstar.

    Qantas has systematically built up the low-cost carrier at the expense of the parent company. I have been provided with a significant number of examples where costs which should have been billed back to Jetstar have in fact been paid for by Qantas. These are practices that I believe Qantas and Jetstar management need to explain. For example, when Jetstar took over the Cairns-Darwin-Singapore route, replacing Qantas flights, a deal was struck that required Qantas to provide Jetstar with $6 million a year in revenue. Why? Why would one part of the business give up a profitable route like that and then be asked to pay for the privilege?

    Then there are other subsidies when it comes to freight. On every sector Jetstar operates an A330, Qantas pays $6,200 to $6,400 for freight space regardless of actual uplift. When you do the calculations, this turns out to be a small fortune. Based on 82 departures a week, that is nearly half-a-million dollars a week or $25½ million a year.

    Then there are the arrangements within the airport gates. In Melbourne, for example, my information from inside the Qantas group is that Jetstar does not pay for any gates, but instead Qantas domestic is charged for the gates. My question for Qantas management is simple: are these arrangements replicated right around Australia and why is Qantas paying Jetstar’s bills? Why does Qantas lease five check-in counters at Sydney Terminal 2, only to let Jetstar use one for free? It has been reported to me that there are other areas where Jetstar’s costs magically become Qantas’s costs. For example, Jetstar does not have a treasury department and has only one person in government affairs. I am told Qantas’s legal department also does free work for Jetstar.

    Then there is the area of disruption handling where flights are cancelled and people need to be rebooked. Here, insiders tell me, Qantas handles all rebookings and the traffic is all one way. It is extremely rare for a Qantas passenger to be rebooked on a Jetstar flight, but Jetstar passengers are regularly rebooked onto Qantas flights. I am informed that Jetstar never pays Qantas for the cost of those rebooked passengers and yet Jetstar gets to keep the revenue from the original bookings. This, I am told, is worth millions of dollars every year. So Jetstar gets the profit while Qantas bears the costs of carriage. It has also been reported to me that when Qantas provides an aircraft to Jetstar to cover an unserviceable plane, Jetstar does not pay for the use of this plane.

    Yet another example relates to the Qantas Club. Jetstar passengers can and do use the Qantas Club but Jetstar does not pay for the cost of any of this. So is Qantas really losing money? Or is it profitable but simply losing money on paper because it is carrying so many costs incurred by Jetstar? We have been told by Qantas management that the changes that will effectively gut Qantas are necessary because Qantas international is losing money but, given the inside information I have just detailed, I would argue those claims need to be reassessed.

    Indeed, given these extensive allegations of hidden costs, it would be foolish to take management’s word that Qantas international is losing money. So why would Qantas want to make it look like Qantas international is losing money? Remember the failed 2007 private equity bid by the Allco Finance Group. It was rejected by shareholders, and thank goodness it was, for I am told that what we are seeing now is effectively a strategy of private equity sell-off by stealth.

    Here is how it works:

    You have to keep Qantas flying to avoid breaching the Qantas Sale Act but that does not stop you from moving assets out of Qantas and putting them into an airline that you own but that is not controlled by the Qantas Sale Act.

    Then you work the figures to make it appear as though the international arm of Qantas is losing money.

    You use this to justify the slashing of jobs, maintenance standards and employment of foreign crews and, ultimately, the creation of an entirely new airlines to be based in Asia and which will not be called Qantas. The end result? Technically Qantas would still exist but it would end up a shell of its former self and the Qantas Group would end up with all these subsidiaries it can base overseas using poorly paid foreign crews with engineering and safety standards that do not match Australian standards. In time, if the Qantas Group wants to make a buck, they can flog these subsidiaries off for a tidy profit. Qantas management could pay the National Boys Choir and the Australian Girls Choir to run to the desert and sing about still calling Australia home, but people would not buy it. It is not just about feeling good about our national carrier—in times of trouble our national carrier plays a key strategic role. In an international emergency, in a time of war, a national carrier is required to freight resources and people around the country and around the world. Qantas also operates Qantas Defence Services, which conducts work for the RAAF. If Qantas is allowed to wither, who will meet these strategic needs?

    I pay tribute to the 35,000 employees of the Qantas Group. At the forefront of the fight against the strategy of Qantas management have been the Qantas pilots, to whom millions of Australians have literally entrusted their lives. The Australian and International Pilots Association sees Qantas management strategy as a race to the bottom when it comes to service and safety. On 8 November last year (2010), QF032 experienced a serious malfunction with the explosion of an engine on an A380-800 aircraft. In the wrong hands, that plane could have crashed. But it did not, in large part because the Qantas flight crew had been trained to exemplary world-class standards and knew how to cope with such a terrifying reality. I am deeply concerned that what is being pursued may well cause training levels to fall and that as a result safety standards in the Qantas Group may fall as well. AIPA pilots and the licensed aircraft engineers are not fighting for themselves; they are fighting for the Australian public. That is why I am deeply concerned about any action Qantas management may be considering taking against pilots who speak out in the public interest.

  58. Shrill, deceitful and lacking in sensible discussion using FACTs like used by me and Neil of Sydney.

    That’s gotta be a projection to just about top most projections here.

    The shrillest here certainly belongs to one palmersaurus.

  59. David, and especially Mobius, I was a bit slow catching up on comments this afternoon which resulted in defamatory comments from palmersaurus appearing unedited. Apologies to our readers, and especially to Mobius.

  60. Not a worry to me. Palmersaurus was right in his posting EBA links, even though they are meaningless in the context of the discussion as they didn’t compare to like entities.

    My annoyance was the abusive names he called flight attendants, even to the term “hags”. And that’s not the only abusive names and terms he’s thrown at groups here. If that’s his attitude then I’ll leave it to him and have the forlorn hope that on a flight some day somewhere the flight attendants find out the passenger who has boarded is one palmersaurus who calls them “hags” and “trolley dollies”.

  61. He does sometimes have facts Bacchus, mostly out of context or meaningless ones but facts nonetheless.

    It’s actually a good discussion if you strip away the abusive name calling so analogous of another who was once here.

  62. The Virgin pay rates are shown through to 2016 you Edited due to personal abuse. The Qantas rates are for long haul too – so they are comparitave rates. Stop your Edited and accept reality – QF trolley dollies are vastly overpaid.

    Get a look at what Air NZ flight attendants get paid:

    New flight attendants typically earn between $28,000 and $33,500 a year, depending on whether they are working on domestic, trans-Tasman or international flights. With three to five years’ experience, flight attendants could expect to earn $40,000 to $45,000, plus allowances. That works out at between AUD 26,415 to 42,453.

    (http://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs/transport-logistics/flight-attendant/about-the-job)

    Just admit defeat Edited due to personal abuse

  63. Mobius, I think that Palmersaurus might now have the hint that his abusive and defamatory comments might earn him a banning. I hope from the above editing that he has intelligence enough to recognise the difference between robust debate and defamation. If he is unable to do so and continues to abuse contributors on this blog, then it will be his own decision as to whether or not he wishes to contribute here in the future.

  64. The Virgin pay rates through to 2016 are projected, but in 2013 the TWU won a bunch of pay and condition improvements agreed to by Virgin not reflected in that agreement. Without seeing all the contracts offered by the airlines for comparison I believe and assume Qantas more than likely pays more overall, but from what I have researched and the limited info you have singled out I don’t know how big that gap is, if there is a gap.

    The other point I’ve made you missed and have now repeated above is that increased pay and conditions have been given to Virgin workers, some better than Qantas, some probably not as good, not having looked at each. But whatever the gap, it is narrowing, if not on base pay on other conditions and additional allowances.

    What has New Zealand to do with Australia?

    What you’re attempting to aver in not only this attack on Qantas flight attendants, but on Australian workers in general, is that they should be paid the lowest denominator wages compared to the lowest denominator wages in overseas countries.

    What is low enough for you? Which country should we be on a par with and if our workers are on low wages and little conditions shouldn’t senior management also be on comparative low wages and conditions? How about picking the country that pays the lowest remuneration packages for executives and put Australian management on that?

    Also how about cutting executive wages and conditions commensurate with their stuff ups and productivity declines? Why do workers have to lose pay and conditions for what is an executive instigated problem and failure.

    And I guess you have a way of decreasing the cost of living so when the workers have their wages slashed they can live?

  65. I found some figures for pilots

    A330 Captains (excluding Super)

    Qantas approx $275K/year
    Virgin Long Haul approx $235K/year
    Virgin approx $205K/year
    Jetstar approx $205K/year

    Looks like Qantas pays very well.

  66. Voyasger, maybe because no one wants what they are selling. Even Clive Palmer strongly supports penalty rates.

    Maybe the question should be, whyt so many open?

  67. I work as a waiter in a restaurant. I lose my whole Saturday night, as well as pretty much all of my Sunday. I receive NO penalty for this. But as it is the only job I can get being 19 years of age, I have no choice but to work and lose 70% of my weekend to run meals to you hungry buggers. I know many of my coworkers are being ripped off on close to a first year apprentice’s wage.
    I don’t want to work Sundays, and I don’t even have a monetary incentive to, because I receive no penalty. Yet Sunday morning is a roaring trade, and it is possibly where my restaurant earns most of its money.
    I think it is deplorable that people can be treated like this in a first world nation. My boss drives around in a Mercedes when I can’t even afford to service my car and fix a few dings and scratches in it, because most of my money goes on the cost of living.
    Yet this is the world that the Liberals think is best. I didn’t vote those a***holes in, and I certainly don’t want them there. Screw Jabba the Rinehutt, Rude-pert Murdoch, and Tony Halfwit.

  68. From where VOYAGER?

    And if you read the EBA or contracts you find that that pay and conditions were agreed to between the employer and employee?

    Are they the base pay or the full pay including all conditions and allowances?
    What other extras are given or not given?
    What is the percentage of the pilots wages are on the red side of the expenses ledger?
    What percentage of the executive pay and conditions are on the side of the expenses ledger?

    …and more questions that could be asked to find the real comparative costs between airlines instead of singling out just one part, and that for some reason being workers isolated from the whole.

  69. “Yet this is the world that the Liberals think is best. I didn’t vote those a***holes in, and I certainly don’t want them there

    Perhaps you are making stuff up. The ALP/Greens were in power for the last six years and there have been no changes to working conditions.

    I conclude you are just another dishonest ALP supporter.

  70. And drastically reducing the pay and conditions for this woefully under performing government across the board and sacking their deficient leader would certainly lead to a vast improvement in this country.

  71. “how much do you both earn”

    Nowhere near what a Qantas baggage handler earns. I should have left school and headed straight for a job with Qantas and become a baggage handler.

    I believe they are on 100K/year.

  72. well at least a baggage handler works up a sweat ! unlike poor voyager who works his butt off while sitting ! why is it that those on big incomes, whinge about others on small incomes ? I have always been on a small income. and have worked hard to earn it. not sitting like voyager ! what a bludger !

  73. Actually Neil there has been a change over the past few years of governments,particularly at a state level ,and a number of industrial changes have occurred in NSW ,not to benefit of workers.One of the major industrial campaigns run by the NSWNMWA has been the ratio of nursing staff to patients to provide safer outcomes in care delivery,with reasonable success in negotiations with the previous labor govt,it has not been the case with the current govt.Have you considered the cost if penalty rates for nurses and other essential services and health service employees were abolished?Quite frankly as much as I love my job I would prefer to be at home with my wife (who just started shift work) and young children and penalty rates are slight compensation for missing special events,to receive no remuneration would I know would determine many peoples decision to leave,not to mention the drop in pay,loss of experienced workers and ability to attract our next generation of practioners for whom it would become economically unviable,choosing other professions that offer greater payment for skills.The cost’s to our communities could not be measured financially.

  74. “Trolley Dollies”? “Hags”? If I was a flight attendant I would need to receive ample renumeration to put up with serving the likes of palmersaurus in an enclosed space.

    When I was a business owner, if I did not wish to pay penalty rates, I worked weekends and public holidays myself.

    In semi retirement, I work casually in the hospitality industry. I was asked by a customer today if we were opening on Monday, the labour day holiday. When I told him that we were closed, he responded with surprise. I then asked him if he was working. “No”, he replied. “It’s a public holiday”. Apparently some people are worthy of a public holiday. Others only are there to ensure that the worthy do not have to suffer any service outages.

  75. Patricia, thank you. Isn’t it amazing how as Sue says, Apparently some people are worthy of a public holiday. Others only are there to ensure that the worthy do not have to suffer any service outages. ..the poor to serve the wealthy?

  76. “Have you considered the cost if penalty rates for nurses and other essential services and health service employees were abolished?”

    Mate you obviously do not read my posts. Nobody is talking about abolishing penalty rates for people who work 5 days/week and then do extra work on the weekend.

    What people are talking about is why should casual workers get penalty rates on the weekend.

    why is it that those on big incomes, whinge about others on small incomes ?

    So a Qantas baggage handler on $100k/year is a small income??

    What planet do you live on??

  77. Neil you idiot, did i say 100k is a small income, where did i say that ? go back and read what i had written again ! I said a at least a baggage handler worked up a sweat ! I wish i had earnt 100k a year, i never managed half of that ! But i always worked up a sweat ! I said those on big incomes whinge about those on small incomes! like your beloved leader one term tony, he is on a huge income and whinges about those struggling on small incomes. just like the lot of those lying and useless LNP bastards ! neil, what planet do you come from ?

  78. When I had my tax & accounting practice in the central west of NSW, it always delighted me when I told a would be client to “piss off”. I didn’t need their money, nor the aggravation. It was highly amusing to see the shock on their faces. I had over 700 clients and was a one-man band.

  79. Wow, the three stooges of stupidity have come out tonight like moths to a flame, Oxygen Thief (extraordinaire) V-B-S, Waste of Space (Null of Syd) and the uni-neuronal palmersorearse (TM LOVO) have all consolidated on the attempt to be the most profoundly stupid example of a “life” form on the planet. The urge each other on to more stupid and vapid displays of absolute idiocy, Surely you three idiots would’ve discovered by now that you have to very gently warm up that one neuron between the three of you BEFORE you start to type something! And whilst one of you is typing the other two must stop breathing or chewing. There now that it has been explained, do try again, and above all, do try to make some coherent sense.

  80. G’day All,

    Dear oh dear, palmersorearse (™ LOVO) you really should go all “honest confessions” on us :-

    palmersaurus
    MARCH 9, 2014 @ 11:00 PM
    When I had my fraud & money laudering practice in the central west of NSW, it always delighted me when I asked a would be client to “open zip”. I didn’t need their pity, nor their compassion. It was highly amusing to see the shock on their faces. I had over 7 clients and was a one-suck band.

    Poor poor palmersorearse, please take pity on him.

  81. G’day All,

    Ahh, null, null, null of Sydney what a self righteous, racist little right wing fucktard you really are, is it hard to breathe and chew at the same time? Do you wake at nights, in a sweat, fearing that your glorious leader, one term tone has abandoned you? Do you secretly wank furiously at the thoughts of Julie and Bronwyn Bishop ganging up on you? Never fear, there is relief at hand (pun intended), with Erica Betzs’ self flagellating beat-o-tron, all you have to do is feed it your stupidity and it will, to a tune of Alan Jones and Piers Ackerman whinings, beat your single, solitary neuron to near death, whilst proclaiming vapid baseless arguments that you can repeat, to fulfill your every dream.

  82. G’day All,

    Oxygen Thief (V-B-S),

    I found some rates of pay for fuckwits :-

    MINISTERS OF STATE PERCENTAGE OF ANNUAL ALLOWANCE
    Prime Minister 160.0%
    Deputy Prime Minister 105.0%
    Treasurer 87.5%
    Leader of the Government in the Senate 87.5%
    Leader of the House 75.0%

    Annual Allowance = $190 550 from 1 July 2012.

    So there you go, what does that tell us for a wanna be millionaire like one term tones, thats right, he will sell what ever to make sure he is a millionaire before the next election.

  83. Breaking News . The Australian. March 10. 2014. 10 min ago. The office of ABC managing director Mark Scott were raided by ASIO and the AFP at 1 am this morning after a report in the Sunday Telegraph by investigative journalist Piers Akerman saying he had been informed by A Leak from A Source alleging that two members of the ABC board may have links to a terrorist organisation based in Afghanistan. The Australian has tried to get more information from Mr Akerman but we were told that even under the threat of life imprisonment or 3 days community service Mr Akerman would not reveal that his Source was Attorney General George Brandis.. You heard it first in > The Australian, where democracy comes to die.

  84. From some comments, that focus on wages, one would think this is there only cost the employer has.

    Productivity has improved over the years. I think one will find the labour cost component over the years has fallen, Yes, I believe labour cost of A Holden IS 19% or less.

    Same goes for not being able to afford weekend labour.

    As Clive Palmer said, in his resorts, the busy time, where one makes the most money. Palmer added, his staff contribute to the profits, and entitled to their shgare.

    If Palmer sees penalty rates as fair, it makes one ponder why so many are cryintg poor.

    I believe the employers have already taken the proposition to FWA. The result warm they could not prove their case.

    One needs to keep ij mind, most getting these penalty rates, are on low pay.

    Penalty rates are not new. They have been around for all of my working life.

  85. So the ABC has been raided. One wonders how much Brandis plays in the actions of the Federal police.

  86. Yesterday, ASIO officers raided the Canberra office of lawyer for East Timor Bernard Collaery – who is currently in the Netherlands preparing for the case – and cancelled the passport for a retired spy expected to give evidence. Attorney-General George Brandis has confirmed he approved the warrants

    Analysis by reporter Peter Lloyd
    I think we’ve set sail into very uncharted waters here. Never before has Timor taken someone to this arbitration panel [at The Hague]; never before has Australia been called to answer questions about spying in a forum such as this.

    And this isn’t just about a treaty – this is by implication about the maritime boundary between Australia and East Timor.

    What’s at stake here are issues of sovereignty; it’s about billions of dollars in resources; it’s about the resource sharing deal that Alexander Downer and the government of the time struck – whether that’s valid.

    Attorney-General George Brandis has confirmed he approved the warrants to conduct the raid, but denied it was done to affect the arbitration at The Hague.

    He says the Federal Opposition was briefed by ASIO earlier today.

    This morning the Greens slammed the Government over the raid.

    “This is a very disturbing allegation and if it’s true, it seems that George Brandis seems to think he’s J Edgar Hoover and is able to throw warrants around like confetti,” deputy leader Adam Bandt said.

    “There needs to be a full explanation from our Attorney-General.” http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-12-04/asio-arrests-key-witness-in-east-timor-spying-scandal/5132954

  87. Royal commission to be held into the Howard Government insider trading allegations Re; East Timor.>ASIO and the LNP Government have taken insider trading to a new low in regard to East Timor. >>; : Alexander Downer became an advisor to Woodside Petroleum after authorising spying on East Timor when he was foreign minister in the Howard Government .
    An individual who is found guilty of the criminal offence of insider trading in Australia is subject to a maximum fine of $450,000 and/or ten years imprisonment. >> East Timor demanded on Monday that Australia return seized documents relating to the two countries’ negotiations over oil and gas reserves thought to be worth tens of billions of dollars.
    The dispute brought before the United Nations’ top court pits one of Asia’s poorest countries against its wealthy giant neighbour, Australia, in a case involving spy agencies, bugging allegations, snatched documents and potentially huge rewards from developing oil and gas fields.
    The hearings at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in the Hague, in a case brought by East Timor against Australia, concern seized documents allegedly showing how Australia used ASIO to outmanoeuvre East Timor in talks over the Greater Sunrise oil and gas fields.

  88. Re; coal seam gas projects. After 70 years of supporting the LNP, farmers threaten to give their support to the ALP or even the Greens, but spokespersons for both the ALP and the Greens political parties say they don’t want them. Plan B, Threaten to suicide en masse ! !, worked before with other handouts. .http://www.lockthegate.org.au/

  89. “When I had my tax & accounting practice in the central west of NSW, it always delighted me when I told a would be client to “piss off”. I didn’t need their money, nor the aggravation. It was highly amusing to see the shock on their faces. I had over 700 clients and was a one-man band.”

    Palmersaurus, nobody asked and nobody cares. This comment had no bearing on the conversation except to outline that, as a one-man band, you never had to worry about paying penalty rates. It also served to prove your failings as a decent human being despite your attempt at a glowing appraisal of yourself. Why don’t you take the same advice that you offered to would-be clients?

  90. Ahh, null, null, null of Sydney what a self righteous, racist little right wing fucktard you really are,…………………Do you secretly wank furiously at the thoughts of Julie and Bronwyn Bishop ganging up on you? Never fear, there is relief at hand (pun intended), with Erica Betzs’ self flagellating beat-o-tron

    What was the point of that post???

  91. Is anyone else out there Disturbed about George Brandis’s Behaviour, To me it just highlights the Guilt of the Australian Government Via Minister Downer and Lobbyist Downer, Let the TRUTH be known ,,It really is a worry when OUR Police start raiding Offices of people who do not agree with the Government, Is anybody safe ? The power has gone to Little Bone Head, No doubt George and his Boys will come and raid me now, SCARY TIMES

  92. When it comes to the woes of retailer, online shopping could be their biggest threat.

    Yes, the customer has moved on.

    Penalty rates are not new. Why the outcry now?

    When I say online shopping, I am not only talking about that purchase overseas, but also in this country.

    One shops at leisure. One is able to compare across many sites. One makes their order, and the product turns up in a few days.

  93. Slumdog – imagine the government exercising its right to retrieve documents illegally obtained by a solicitor who was not entitled to them. Where will it end ???

  94. Greg, I am extremely concerned. We see

    I believe they removed the passport of one of those lawyers, preventing them from attending the court.

    Time for a senate inquiry, one would think.

    Brandis relationship with police, and would not surprise me, of some courts is too cosy.

  95. Is there any, that earned their money working out of ordinary hours, with penalty rates, that agree they should go?

    I have always, since a young child, believed it, I wanted a meal, when everyone was enjoying their weekend, one should pay extra. I can remember as a child, the menu stated that there would be a surcharge on Saturdays and Sundays. I can see nothing wrong with this.

  96. Palmer did answer that question,. He pointed out, that the resort is a seasonal business, Yes, the numbers of employees goes up and down.

    If the business has gone broke, I would be surprised that penalty rates was the cause.

    Over the last few years, especially in the tourist industry, the high dollars would have been more to blame.

    It is ridiculous to claim that all we need in this country for businesses to thrive, is to do away with working conditions, axe the tax and MRRT, along with all regulations, that ensure safety and a fair deal for all.

    All this will lead to, is a more inequitable society, where the powerful take all.

  97. Businesses exist to make profits for the owner – not just to magically create jobs.
    They employ the number of people they require to do the work and no more.
    If more employees equals more profit, they would hire them.

    The removal of penalty rates is soley about increasing business profit – not the charitable creation of more jobs for the sake of it and productivity is about doing more with less (in this case, less expense).

    Unemployment under Howard was supposed to be better, but UNDER-employment and the casualisation of the workforce was the real demon endured by many.

    The social consequences of the increasing breakdown of the family unit due to longer and fragmented working hours are becoming more evident every day.

    Ultimately it’s the spending power of their own customers they seek to reduce.

    The real greed lies with the employers, not the employees.

  98. FedUp – we know that Nicola Roxon handled the AWU files after Miss Gillard’s actions caused her law firm to lose the client because of her incompetence. I look forward to her being subpoened to the Royal Commission into union corruption as well.

  99. Yes FedUp – Miss Gillard, the doyen of economic flatulence, budgeted for $4 billion in MRRT this year. So far, mining companies have paid $228 million for the six months todate.

    This woman was a bloody genius !!!!!!!!

  100. Zathrus – increased causualisation was caused by the union movement and the ALP. Given the IT laws in place, it is impossible to sack adrunk or theif, without being hauled before the Fair Work Commission. Even if you are proved to be in the right, you have had to pay $50,000 in legal fees.

    Employers are forced to hire cauals in order to get around this stupid legislation. Blame Gillard, Rudd & Shorten for this, not the LNP or emploers.

    As an aside, look at Obama’s health care. Over 5 million employees have been casualised so that employers dont have to provide healthcare.

    Socialists forget that the money runs out in the end.

  101. Re; coal seam gas projects. After 70 years of supporting the LNP, farmers threaten to give their support to the ALP or even the Greens, but spokespersons for the ALP and the Greens say they don’t want them. Plan B, Threaten to suicide en masse ! !, worked before with other handouts. The Qantas and car manufacturing workers should try that one .http://www.lockthegate.org.au/

  102. G’day All,

    Dear oh dear, uni-neuronal myopic palmersorearse (™ LOVO),

    palmersaurus
    MARCH 10, 2014 @ 11:18 AM

    No you wouldn’t, you’d be awarded a prize for spelling, or at least a coherent sentence, way better than your usual offering.

  103. G’day All,

    Oh my goodness, dear little stupid uni-neuronal palmersorearse (™ LOVO), this is not really the place for heart felt confessions of venal racism and rank stupidity. Suggest you take it up with ex-Cardinal Pell, he will absolve you unlike the rest of us.

    palmersaurus
    MARCH 10, 2014 @ 11:16 AM
    I was called a racist in my town coz I am.

  104. G’day All,

    Neil of Sydney
    MARCH 10, 2014 @ 9:23 AM

    Oh, my goodness, poor old null of sydney recognises his dementia, he can’t see the crux of a paragraph, “whilst proclaiming vapid baseless arguments that you can repeat”. We should indeed pity his failing competencies, however, since he and his much vaunted Lying Nasty Party won’t recognise anyone unless they have a multi-million dollar income I say stick the boots in.

  105. G’day All,

    palmersaurus
    MARCH 10, 2014 @ 11:21 AM

    My very God Particle, it must be hard to warm up that neuron palmersorearse (™ LOVO), it may well be the rates of pay for someone that actually thinks and provides policy, but how can a uni-neuronal moron, like you, even hope to defend those rates of pay for the Abbottoir government, who have no policies and treat thinking like some sort of plague?

  106. Palmersaurus, workforce casualisation actually blossomed under Howard’s watch and that was even before he introduced Workchoices but after he introduced the “allowable matters” and other anti-union legislation.

    At that time we were ranked globally second only to Spain for the percentage of casual workers in the workforce. It was better for employers but socially damaging due to massive under-employment.

    There used to be a joke for immigrants at the time – “Come to Australaia – there are plenty of jobs here. I have five myself”.

  107. I can’t believe that the people of SA & Tasmania are prepared to vote in the Liberal Party in there States, the damage that has been done under the control of the Liberal/Nationals in NSW, Victoria, WA, Qld and the NT, and plus what Abbott has done to Australia in a short 6 months means very little to them, I am totally astounded that they are going in that direction, it beggars belief.

  108. I can’t believe that the people of SA & Tasmania are prepared to vote in the Liberal Party in there States

    Without the election of the current federal Government, the libs would have been a shoe in here in SA Crowey, but, the damage done by tabot, particularly Holden, has given Labor some hope.

    We have a very determined media here, particularly channel 7, who still hold grudges against Mike Rann from the last election after he successfully sued them over their allegations and smears. Watching the news and TT (which surprisingly wasn’t canned here, perhaps they are waiting on the election?) is just appalling. But, even though the current Labor Government here is less than appealing, the fear about how bad the libs could be might just save them.

    Here’s hoping.

  109. Also, I know it’s been a while since I posted here, but the level of language, from both sides, is getting pretty keen imo.

    I have been flat out juggling work and family life just recently, and, coming back and reading the posts, it seems to often just degenerate into public slanging matches. I realise it is difficult to cop the missiles without firing back, but, two wrongs and all that. Sometimes a simple reaffirmation of your point goes much further than venting. I also say this in the knowledge that I have, any many more than one occasion, been responsible for the same.

    Just Sayin’ 😉

  110. As to the initial topic about work killing weekends, the liberals main case seems to rest on the poor cafe owners crying poor. This has been run many times recently. I particularly recall the chef from one of those tv shows complaining, only to have his “figures” thrown back at him. There is a good write up about it in Crikey exposing those cafe owners complaining to be nothing but owners wanting to further feather their nests.

    Retail trade figures show that between February 2010 and February 2013, growth in the wider cafe, restaurant and takeaway sector was 12.9%. For some perspective, during this same period department store turnover shrank (department store workers receive much lower penalty rates than the average hospitality worker as they’re covered by enterprise bargaining agreements).

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/05/03/get-fact-are-penalty-rates-killing-small-business

    If it is so unsustainable, why are so many getting into it. And why are so many making money from it?

    As for Duckmeister, I feel for you. You are probably aware that, if your story is correct, your employer is actually breaking the law. Unfortunately, we know some do, making it difficult for other owners to do the right thing. It is also very difficult to do anything about it, as, all that will probably happen is the loss of your job. We have reported a couple of businesses locally who have been using the “trial period” on our kids, then getting rid of them for the next kid looking for a job. There doesn’t appear to be any visible change in their behavior, but we cannot be sure. It is a nasty catch22 you are in. I sympathise.

    Whether the figures as seen above would be the same were some owners not breaking the law is difficult to surmise, as it is difficult to determine just how pervasive this is within the industry. We have only found it personally in a small number of operators, but that is purely our own experience.

  111. An interesting aspect of debates like this is that the right of “business” to make as much money as it can get its hands on is viewed as absolute by its defenders. It’s only the employees who have to justify their claims.

  112. is viewed as absolute

    And it is irrelevant if they need to lie in order to justify it either apparently

  113. “There is a good write up about it in Crikey exposing those cafe owners complaining to be nothing but owners wanting to further feather their nests.

    And there are also a lot of places that do not open denying people employment.

    One day the greed of ALP voters will totally destroy some companies.

    It was human greed that cause Holden, Ford, Toyota to leave. And greed by both management and workers. All the auto manufacturers did with the govt handouts was pay themselves more money.

  114. Yes the greed of employers to demand profits at all costs. Their entitlement, that they expect workers to work for subsistence wages is beyond me.

    Can the accountant enlighten me, as to the percentage of the cost on a meal, on the weekend penalty rates , add to a meal.

  115. It just reinforces my belief that Labor supporters only care about themselves.

    Stuff it if the company goes bankrupt. Well goodby Holden, Toyota, Ford and most probably Qantas.

    Qantas is paying $100K/year for baggage handlers and everybody is wondering why qantas is in trouble.

  116. I suspect the growth of huge shopping centres, that has led to the demise of the main street shops has added more to small business costs, than any increase in penalty. Yes, high rents and told when to open, leave many/most small businesses space to move.

  117. And there are also a lot of places that do not open denying people employment.

    Not around our way. Cafe’s are booming on the weekends. Even those paying the correct wage

    One day the greed of ALP voters will totally destroy some companies.

    You mean like they destroyed Holden? Oh wait, wasn’t that because of Hockey in QT?

    It was human greed that cause Holden, Ford, Toyota to leave.

    See above 😉

  118. Dead, Buried, Cremated. Yea, Right!

    <i.So let's be clear: these are not affluent people. They work around the clock, and the very night and weekend shift loadings they rely on to pay the mortgage and buy groceries and other staples of life are up for grabs.

    The extraordinary thing is that we have been here before. Reflecting on his government's abolition of the no-disadvantage test that enabled individual contracts to sink below award rates, Howard conceded in 2011, that scrapping the test had been a mistake.

    Labor reintroduced no-disadvantage in the form of the BOOT test, and replaced individual contracts with flexibility arrangements, while the Coalition assured us it would not legislate against penalty rates. Yet here we are turning back the clock to 2006, reintroducing individual contracts that can subvert awards by cutting weekend and overnight penalty rates.

    Crucial to Senator Abetz’s changes are new restrictions on the right of Australians to access union information, advice and support at their workplace. Effectively, they will have to ask their employer for permission before they can speak to a union representative.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/we-dont-want-a-usstyle-army-of-working-poor-20140310-34hnp.html#ixzz2ve1xYFb6

  119. “You mean like they destroyed Holden?”

    Holden left because Ford left. My understanding is that Gillard made a deal with Holden that they would be making cars for the next 10 years. I believe Gillard made that agreement with Holden in 2012 meaning Holden would be making cars till 2022.

    What happened was that Ford left (under Rudd) and Ford leaving meant the Gillard deal was off (or somebody lied). Holden went back and asked for more money and the Coalition did not wan to give any more money.

    I could be wrong but that is my understanding. I don’t think Abbott was taking any money back. He just did not want to give any more.

    But i could be wrong.

    http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2012/s3460970.htm

    “ELEANOR HALL: The Federal Government this morning announced a $275 million taxpayer deal to keep General Motors Holden manufacturing in Australia.

    The company itself will contribute $1 billion and is now promising to stay in South Australia until at least 2022.”

  120. Holden left because Ford left.

    No, Holden left because Joe Hockey abused them in Question Time and made it clear that Federal funds would not be forthcoming. The decision to withdraw came immediately after that appalling hissy fit.

    and the Coalition did not wan to give any more money.

    They made it clear they did not want to even enter into the negotiation, even though the numbers were prepared and a case had been made to the parent company in Detroit who had said that, with those funds, the factory would remain open. Hockey spat in their faces, and the factory closed.

    But i could be wrong.

    It’s not like you’re breaking any new ground there Neil 😉

  121. Well what about this??

    http://pmtranscripts.dpmc.gov.au/browse.php?did=18458

    So, I’m pleased to be here today with the Premier, with Minister Combet, with Holden and Mike, to announce some good news. And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.

    Holden will be here in Australia producing cars for at least the next 10 years. That’s great news. And it’s as a result of a more than $1 billion co-investment between the Federal Government, the South Australian Government, the Victorian Government and of course Holden, which is investing strongly in the future of manufacturing Holden cars here in Australia.

    So what happened?? Gillard said Holden would be making cars for 10 years.

    My understanding is that after Ford left (under Labor in 2013) it made Holden staying unworkable.

    Holden went to the Coalition and asked for even more money and they refused.

    Anyway that is my understanding

  122. I see that Man Abbott is over in the West Electioneering I Hope the West Australian realise what he says today means absolutely NOTHING after the voting, That’s been Proved time and again “If his lips are Moving then he is Lying ” How can any sensible Person TRUST Him Particularly and the Loonie right wingers he Leads Promise promise promise Lie Lie Lie. Hello George xxoo

  123. What about the greed of those that are well off, that expect to only pay third world prices for their goods?

    Expect their incomes to be protected, by only paying third world wages.

    Something not right in this type of thinking. Leading contender has to be Gina.

    At least Palmer sad that workers deserve decent wqages and conditions, as they contribute to his wealth.

    Why nearby Asia is growing,m is because of the rising middle class. Yes, people getting more money, that allows them to buys more of our goods.

    Yes, a well paid workforce is necessary for any flourishing economy.

    The more people are paid, the more they have to spend. Yes, enables them to buy, what the employers make, with their labour.

    It is employers, that want to pay as little as they can for labour, that are greedy. They are cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

    Employees cannot make money, without workers.

  124. Some records being broken by Abbott.

    Billions of dollars in renewable technologies and successful green energy industry moving out of Australia.

    Australia 156 extreme weather event records in 90 days.

    And the winner by a country mile, Abbott 25 broken promises in 150 days. No other new PM in our history gets close to that.

  125. This is something that Neil has got down to to a fine art. Still does not understand, that data taken out of context means absolute nothing, Does not prove his arguments.

    Lies, damned lies, and statistics – Wikipedia, the free …
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics‎
    “Lies, damned lies, and statistics” is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments. It is also …

    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=damm+statstics&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=LOgeU9TeK-fC8geZ64G4Bw&gws_rd=cr#channel=sb&q=lies%2C+damn+statistics&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

  126. @Zathras – Thank Allah that the progressive polices of both Rudd and Gillard stopped the casualisation of the workforce. No wonder they were voted amongst the best prime ministers we have ever had. I too support compulsory unionism and believ that working class people, single mums, Aborigines, the blind, the disturbed and the destitute should all be paid triple outside Monday to Friday 9.00am to 5.00pm Solidarity forever and bugger the economy.

  127. By the way lefties why did Ford leave under Labor???

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Australia

    “In May 2013 Ford Australia announced that it would stop making cars after 88 years due to soaring manufacturing costs and plummeting sales. The carmaker released its annual financial report, which showed a loss of A$141m dollars (£90m/$136m) after tax for the 2012 financial year.”

    Ford leaving made it impossible for Holden to stay in spite of Holdens 2012 agreement with Gillard.

    And i think it is human greed that destroyed the auto industry. Paying wages way above what other workers are getting doing similar work. Same at Qantas. Paying baggage handlers $100K/year. University lecturers start on about $85K/year

  128. Oi @FedUp! – it depends on patronage. Have you ever heard of cost accounting. There are fixed costs (rent, insurance, rates etc) and there are variable costs (wages, electricity, workers comp etc).

    If a waiter is paid $18 during the week, they are paid $27 on a Saturday and $36 on a Sunday. Does their productivy suddenly increase on a weekend. Not too many public servants pop out of their office on the weekend for the double chi lattes.

    A cafe depends on traffic flow. Unless you are in a high rent area such as the Sydney CBD, it is uneconomic to open.

  129. Yes @Tom R: Juliar Gillard’s inspired changes to the industrial laws saw an extra 200,000 unemployed than when Howard was defeated, but also has seen and extra 150,000 employed on a casual basis, as against a full-time basis.

    What a bloody legend she is. Single mothers in Mt Druitt adore her, ask Anne Summers.

  130. @Tom R: GM clearly stated they pulled out because they could build cars far cheaper in other countries. They stated nothing the LNP said or did would have aggected their decision. Dont let facts get in the way of your lies.

  131. So what happened?

    For the slow and short of memory (as we have been over this before)

    It was the text message that sounded the death knell for Holden as a manufacturer in Australia.

    ”Are you seeing this question time attack on Holden?” read the text message, sent by a company insider. ”Taunting [Holden] to leave. It’s extraordinary.”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/taunts-in-parliament-and-text-brought-about-general-motors-holdens-exit-from-australia-20131211-2z6i6.html#ixzz2vgXxZVNd

    @Tom R: GM clearly stated they pulled out because ….. see above

    By the way lefties why did Ford leave under Labor? Well, not because the then Treasurer dared them to, making it clear they weren’t getting any assistance.

    Juliar Gillard’s inspired changes to the industrial laws saw an extra 200,000 unemployed than when Howard was defeated

    How do you spell GFC?

  132. Palmersaurus and,

    Not too many public servants pop out of their office on the weekend for the double chi lattes.

    You’re right ambos and nurses and firies (aka public servants) rarely have time to stop over weekends to enjoy a chi latte.

    However, if you mean the pen pushers in Canberra and of course many regional centres (such as the ones who work for things such as the Law Enforcement Integrity Commission or the National Audit Office)..then they wouldn’t be caught dead drinking chi. 😀

  133. palmersaurus not allowing facts to get in the way of his lies, again.

    How about you show us the full statements from Holden, and indeed Ford and Toyota, as to the main reason for them leaving Australia?

    Hint. It directly has to do with something our government has done.

  134. Wow palmersaurus what a short memory you have, more accurately selective memory, just like your beloved party.

    Can you please give us the reason there were those unemployed under Gillard. The data is there for everyone to find, except of course the Liberals and their gormless supporters, who live in a world of three word slogans, double standards and broken promises, lots and lots of broken promises.

    While you’re at it can you the explain how Fair Work Australia has provided better worker productivity, flexibility and reduced wages expansion than WorkChoices, yet at the moment Abbott is bringing in WorkChoices again, which by the way is yet another broken promise, a huge one.

  135. “Unless you are in a high rent area such as the Sydney CBD, it is uneconomic to open.”

    What a load of crap you speak.

    According to the industry itself:

    FACT:
    According to industry statistics, 70% of Cafes fail in the first year. Yet many of the lucky 30% who made it to their second year don’t even know what they did right.
    FACT:
    Cafes change hands on average every 2-3 years. Anecdotal evidence suggests that in major cities in the Central Business District where competition is fierce, it is every 12-18 months.
    FACT:
    Over 50% of businesses for sale in the newspaper are food-related. This indicates the level of fierce competition and the tough nature of the hospitality industry.

    The worst areas are the CBD where competition is fiercest.

  136. You’re right ambos and nurses and firies (aka public servants) rarely have time to stop over weekends to enjoy a chi latte.

    And this is who these workchoice changes are going to affect the most. The libs want to keep the focus centered on cafe workers, as they are the easiest to pick on, with owners clamouring for more of a share from the takings, and the workers largely unable to fight for their rights. The nurses and firies however, have proven that they are well equipped to protect their rights. Perhaps they should start?

    I linked to this above, but it is quite cutting imo

    Imagine an Australia with no compensation for working public holidays, weekends, or nights, or overtime. Imagine an Australia that allows the award safety net of pay and conditions to be undercut. That’s where the federal government is taking us.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/we-dont-want-a-usstyle-army-of-working-poor-20140310-34hnp.html#ixzz2vgik4JTm

  137. Mobius and,

    FACT:
    Over 50% of businesses for sale in the newspaper are food-related. This indicates the level of fierce competition and the tough nature of the hospitality industry.

    It also indicates weakness at local government level by handing out permits for too much of the same. For example, our local shopping village *boasts* 6 sushi takeaways..I wonder which one will go broke first?

    Too many people think that entering the hospitality industry is an easy option..hey the missus likes to cook…but it’s a 24/7 job which many people are not prepared for.

  138. Tom, it was a huge shock to Queenslanders when all the state government public service sackings began..for some strange reason the ones who applauded this action loudest were also completely ignorant of the fact that this meant people such as teachers and nurses. Then of course they screamed blue murder…

    Yes indeed the Libs want to keep the attention focussed on the easy targets – waitresses, checkout workers and public servants (federal) because their reseach states that these are the people least likely to be able to launch campaigns in protest.

  139. Juliar Gillard’s inspired changes to the industrial laws saw an extra 200,000 unemployed than when Howard was defeated

    How do you spell GFC?

    Indeed, and it’s widely accepted, except by the lying and deceiving Abbott and his gormless followers of course, that the Labor government’s actions saved hundreds of thousands of jobs.

    The Liberals denied the GFC ever happened after the Labor government was so successful in getting us through it, yet they also had a plan for the GFC as stated by Hockey in opposition at that.

    The Liberals plan was to throw hundreds of thousands of jobs onto the scrap heap, close thousands of businesses and do what the failed countries like the US and many in Europe did. Countries that are still suffering the fall out today.

    Isn’t it also telling after saying there was no GFC, it was nothing by a Labor beat up, Hockey and this government are using the GFC as excuses for their unwarranted and savage attack on the socially disadvantaged to pay for handouts to the wealthy.

  140. but it’s a 24/7 job which many people are not prepared for

    I agree that owning and running a cafe would be a challenging and time consuming occupation. However, those few that I have spoken to, admit that the long hours is more than offset by the lifestyle it brings them. They are people who enjoy the public interaction and cafe lifestyle, and get to live it all day. And, if the business is successful, the returns can be great. Their choice for choosing that lifestyle should not be taken out on those working there however. And, as Carol pointed out above, the proposed changes will be affecting far more than just cafe workers, it will extend to professionals that we rely on 24/7. Both cafe workers and nurses should be compensated for working while we relax and enjoy ourselves with family and friends.

  141. Hockey and this government are using the GFC as excuses for their unwarranted and savage attack on the socially disadvantaged to pay for handouts to the wealthy.

    And don’t forget Labor incompetence(sic), even though the debt used to get us through the GFC was tracking down under Labor, but is tracking back up again now under hockeynomics. I saw a graph of it somewhere, I’ll see if I can locate it again

  142. I wonder if these RWNJ would work for gina for $2.00 per our ? when they expect everyone else to do it ! I think not.

  143. By the way lefties why did Ford leave under Labor? Well, not because the then Treasurer dared them to, making it clear they weren’t getting any assistance.

    Maybe not. But Ford left under Labor anyway. Apparently it was Ford leaving that meant Holden broke its promise to continue manufacturing cars for another 10 years.
    From 2012
    http://pmtranscripts.dpmc.gov.au/browse.php?did=18458

    “Holden will be here in Australia producing cars for at least the next 10 years.”

    Ford leaving in 2013 meant Holden broke its 2012 promise.

    Perhaps we should try and get people to keep their promises. And if anything is to be learned from this disaster is that subsidies do not work. Management and Unions just gorged themselves on the taxpayer handouts.

  144. making it clear they weren’t getting any assistance.”

    OK I could be wrong but i don’t think that is true. My understanding is that when Ford left in 2013 Holden went back and asked for even more money breaking their 2012 promise which the new govt refused. I still think they were getting the money Gillard had promised (but i could be wrong).

  145. Ford leaving in 2013 meant Holden broke its 2012 promise.

    No, Hockey telegraphing in Question Time, as I showed above, that Holden were no longer wanted in Australia did that.

  146. What?? Hockey hurt Holdens feeling so they up and left??

    How about getting Holden to keep its solemn promise to keep making cars for the next 10 years which they made in 2012.

    Just imagine what you lot would be saying if that promise was made with Howard as PM and Holden then up and left?? You would be saying something different.

    So, I’m pleased to be here today with the Premier, with Minister Combet, with Holden and Mike, to announce some good news. And the good news is that the future of General Motors is now secure in this country for the next decade.

  147. What?? Hockey hurt Holdens feeling so they up and left??

    No, Hockey made it clear this Government was not interested in Holden. Holden could see that getting any finance would be impossible.

    While listening to the words of Mr Hockey and Mr Truss, the Holden boss was on the phone to Detroit, where it was after 10pm.

    Mr Devereux informed GM headquarters of the events in Australia. The decision was swift. Detroit pulled the pin.
    ……….
    But Mr Hockey appeared to concede the government was not willing to give money to Holden.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/taunts-in-parliament-and-text-brought-about-general-motors-holdens-exit-from-australia-20131211-2z6i6.html#ixzz2vhbZbD6v

  148. I think this should read “Holden could see that getting any MORE finance would be impossible.

    What about the big promise in 2012 that Holden would make cars until 2022?? If that was a Howard govt promise you would be all over Howard. But since Gillard made the promise you say nothing.

    Holden left because Ford left in 2013 after the 2012 Gillard-Holden agreement to stay for 10 years.

    You may be correct that Holden may have stayed if the Coalition had given Holden even more money but the Coalition did not want to do that.

  149. More about the lies about to be spread by the libs for their mates

    Is work on the weekends deserving of a higher rate of pay? Given nearly 70 per cent of us choose not to work such hours it suggests there’s still a premium placed on being able to enjoy Saturday and Sunday off.
    ……
    Among the other point sits the overall question of flexibility. Fortunately we already know the Fair Work Act is flexible.
    ……
    The argument is about to be fought over what people believe is the return you should get for your labour. And regardless of how it is painted, the reality is those who seek to argue that times have changed and we work 24/7 are actually arguing the community standard and expectation now is that people should earn less than they currently do.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-12/jericho-coalition-wages-blunt-ir-campaign/5312286

    That last bit sums it up perfectly. The shops argued like hell to get weekend hours. Now they have it, they don’t want to pay their workers their fair share. And, the Government looks like they want to bring anyone working weekends back down with them.

  150. I think this should read “Holden could see that getting any MORE finance would be impossible.

    Going on what has happened since with SPC and Qantas, I am sure the wording is correct in its initial format Neil. Hockey has been pretty clear about his interpretation of the “Age of Entitlement”

  151. Going on what has happened since with SPC and Qantas, I am sure the wording is correct in its initial format Neil

    You may be right. Can an incoming govt overturn funding arrangements passed by the previous govt?? Surely Parliament would have to sit and Parliament had not sat when Hockey refused Holdens request.

    My understanding is that when Ford up and left in 2013 it made it impossible for the 2012 Gillard-Holden agreement to work. So Holden went and asked for even more money which Hockey refused.

  152. Can an incoming govt overturn funding arrangements passed by the previous govt??

    If not, someone should tell tabot

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australian-government-cuts-billions-of-dollars-from-social-programs-20131217-2zjbn.html

    My understanding is that when Ford up and left in 2013 it made it impossible for the 2012 Gillard-Holden agreement to work.

    I’m not sure how? All Holden wanted was assurances about finance. They got told, in no uncertain terms, that the “Age of Entitlement” was over for them. Even though the numbers were there that showed the path forward for ongoing operations to get them through this difficult period in the aftermath of the GFC, which decimated Holdens export market. The liberal Government decided to cut them off at the knees.

  153. Did you read your own link?? I am not sure if in December 2013 Hockey can cut funding without Parliament sitting.

    “But the report includes information about a string of planned funding cuts to programs ranging from education to hospitals,”

    And around and around and around we go

    “All Holden wanted was assurances about finance

    I think they wanted even more money because when Ford left in 2013 it made it more expensive for Holden to make cars. This was unknown in 2012 when Gillard made her agreement with Holden.

    By the way you are the one who tells me not to believe what is written in the media. You seem to believe everything that suits your prejudices.

  154. planned funding cuts

    Which is what Holden were not waiting around for. Do you read the links?

    Hockey told them, their funding wasn’t going to happen. So Holden left. He was very vocal in the Question Time about his position on funding industries. It is not something this Government was going to do. This Government broke that agreement, not Holden. They cut and run when the writing got plastered on the walls of Parliament. They weren’t going to wait around for the papers to be processed.

  155. Oh, and you do need to read the articles closer

    The Energy Efficiency Council said members were ”livid” about the surprise cut in funding of millions of dollars for the Energy Efficiency Opportunities program in the mid-year economic forecast.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/australian-government-cuts-billions-of-dollars-from-social-programs-20131217-2zjbn.html#ixzz2vi34GOXm

    And yes, there are other “planned” cuts as well.

  156. Tom R

    Lot of wishful thinking there with no links to back up your statements.

    “Hockey told them, their funding wasn’t going to happen.

    Were you in the room when this happened??

    By the way why didn’t Ford stay?? All Gillard had to do was give them enough money and they would have stayed.

  157. Hockey dares GM to leave

    Holden has already told the government what it wants. Mr Hockey’s ­comments about money reinforced GM’s belief the government has no intention of paying to keep GM in ­Australia beyond 2015 and is trying to force it to announce a decision to quit Australia before Christmas, before the Productivity Commission even reports.

    Mr Devereux declined to tell Productivity Commissioners Mike Woods and Philip Weickhardt how much ­additional assistance Holden needed on top of that already offered, saying the government was aware of the figure.

    The car industry wants the $500 million in assistance the Coalition plans to cut between now and 2015 restored. Labor also promised $300 million a year after 2015, up from the current $200 million.

    Holden had sought an answer by Christmas from the Coalition but it instituted the Productivity Commission report instead.

    http://www.afr.com/p/national/hockey_dares_gm_to_leave_URe2aMQqTVACqNcjO8voHL

  158. Holden was always going to leave

    http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/making-cars-in-australia-impossible-gm-executive-20140114-30rlf.html

    “”We made this decision independent of the Australian government to support the auto industry,” he said, adding that GM was not “gambling” with the by government to secure more financial assistance, despite a campaign that went on for years calling for long-term assistance.

    “It had been a business decision. The decision was not made on any [government] incentives or any reduction of incentives … It was a purely business-driven decision. We discussed all alternatives and at the very end we came up with the decision to withdraw.”

  159. Neil must be terribly let down with thew behavior of Mr. Boswell in WA. This just does not happen on that side of the fence. Well that is what Neil; believes. He keeps telling us so.

    I see many are still struck back in the time of the last government. What that has to do, with what this government is doing, or more likely not doing is beyond me.

  160. Bacchus

    Your link also said this

    “Mr Hockey told Parliament Mr Devereux should “come clean with the Australian people” and be “honest”.

    “Either you’re here or you’re not,” he said.

    He noted $1 billion in car industry assistance had been budgeted for over the five years beyond 2015 and that Holden ought to be grateful for that.

    “There’s a hell of a lot of industries in Australia that would love to get the assistance the motor vehicle industry gets,” he said.

    So there us funding in the budget even 5 years beyond 2015.

  161. So, how do you support the two statements.
    “He noted $1 billion in car industry assistance had been budgeted for over the five years beyond 2015 and that Holden ought to be grateful for that.”
    And
    “The car industry wants the $500 million in assistance the Coalition plans to cut between now and 2015 restored. Labor also promised $300 million a year after 2015, up from the current $200 million. ”

    There WAS $1 billion budgeted for, but the libs were going to cut half of that. And, from Hockeys QT performance, I think it was clear to Holden that all of it might be on the chopping block

    Regardless of the rest, the libs were planning to cut half of the money promised by Gillard. They broke the arrangement, not Holden. They are now also directlyresponsible for Toyota leaving. SPC are just lucky that the Victorian Government still came to their aid.

  162. So, how do you support the two statements.

    Don’t know. Hockey said this

    He noted $1 billion in car industry assistance had been budgeted for over the five years beyond 2015 and that Holden ought to be grateful for that.”

    Actually i didn’t think the forward estimates went that far.

    I suspect what happened is that for the one millionth time, Ford leaving meant Holden wanted more money. Rudd/Gillard most probably promised the extra money but Hockey refused.

    And see my previous link. Holden was leaving no matter how much money they were given. Phil Coorey is an ALP deadbeat. I would not trust much he says.

  163. Don’t know. Hockey said this

    Hockey says a lot that doesn’t make sense. It is also true that those funding arrangements I mentioned above for the Energy Efficiency Council were also budgeted for, until they weren’t. Until he cut them. Which is also what that article states they planned to do.

    And see my previous link. Holden was leaving no matter how much money they were given.

    I did, and this is the telling line in it.

    In a move some will say is designed to appease the federal coalition government as Holden embarks on a costly politically-charged exit from the country

    The statement from Stephen Jacoby is completely at odds with the events. It is a statement made by someone who still wants to sell cars in the country. The facts don’t support the statement.

  164. “Until he cut them. Which is also what that article states they planned to do.

    Yes but did it mention car funding?? Hockey says there is $1B from 2015-2020 in the budget. And they would get no more.

    In a move some will say is designed to appease the federal coalition

    Yep some will say that. But Holden was going anyway. When Ford left it became a certainty.

    By the way why didn’t Gillard throw more money at Ford??

  165. SPC / Coke can achieve when they have to. Imagine that hey. The taxpayers bailed them out by buying their product, rather than giving them $25m for no product. SPC wouldn’t have employed any extra staff, they’d simply have banked it.

    Then Woolies give them better shelf space because all of a sudden, their product is being bought by Australians. SPC is now advertising for more staff. You see how it now works lefties? As the old saying goes. How do you create a small business?. Give a labor voter a big one.

    Today’s lesson for Left Leaning Nincompoops in Business is over.

    yajustgottalaugh 😉

  166. The Don, the Victorian Government came to the rescue, showing the feds how it is done.

    yajustgottawonda 😯

  167. Not the image I recall, but it does tell part of the story about the Libs extending our borrowing

  168. Perhaps they were talking about fairy lights

    Most probably.

    And you got one thing wrong. You said Hockey completely cut funding.

    According to the link Bacchus gave there was $1B in assistance from 2015-2020.

  169. Many seem to be ignoring the fact, that the state government paid the money to SPC when Abbot and his mob refused.

    Yes, the company did get taxpayers help.

    It should also be acknowledged that the workers came to the party.

    As for Woolworth, it is their actions in the past, that put these industries at risk.

    I suspect there are a few inquiries going on, that maybe leading to them looking at their practices,

    Yes, SPC has survived in SPITE of Abbott, not because of him.

    We, the public, are not that stupid.

    Yes, one has to laugh, at those who think we are all gullible.

    I notice all the industries that Abbott has taken his boots to, are mainly highly unionized. Could be just a coincidence.

    One needs to keep in mind, while Truss and Hockey were putting on their circus, telling GMH where to go, the minister, Mr. MacFarlane, was still saying he was working with the company and believed they would come to an agreement. This even occurred, in the QT, that Hockey got up and GMH to go.

    One must wonder what is going on with the Barangaroo construction site in Sydney’s CBD.

    Every few days their is an disaster, including death.

  170. Wrong Fed Up. The Vic Govt have not given one red cent to SPC. There is an alleged agreement and numerous provisions to be met. If compliant, SPC MIGHT receive $22m in 3 years time, and one provision is that Coca Cola give $78m over 3 years. $100m agreement over 3 years.

    You lefties will try and spin anything.

    yajustgottalaugh 😉

  171. One hears about taxpayers money given, One never hears about the returns on that money, Never hears of the ongoing jobs it created. Never hears of the extra taxation paid back.

    Why is all government spending by some seen as only an expense, and mainly waste.

    Why not see it, for what it is, an investment in the nations future.

  172. Well, maybe if Abbott spoke to SPC, he might have come to a similar agreement., He was unwilling even to talk.

  173. Neil you’re a dopey fellow, aren’t you? Hockey CUT $500 million from CURRENT funding (2013-2015) and then told Holden the budget for future years, 2105 & beyond, was $200 million per year, COMPARED to $300 million per year that Labor was proposing…

    Surprisingly, Holden said “Stick it, we’re outta here”, leaving Toyota no option but to follow suit. The destruction of the Australian car industry is ENTIRELY down to that nong you think is a good treasurer! 🙄

  174. So the government promising 22 million, is not giving money. Funny that. If my memory was correct, SPC always intended to invest, as long as the government was willing to go along with a co-payment.

    GMH gave up the game, when one of Abbott’s first acts. was to cut the $300 million promised. Funny how one only ever gets cherry picks accounts of Abbott’s actions.

    There is always much left out.

  175. They were leaving anyway Bacchus. Funding or not. Ford leaving made it impossible for Holden to stay.

    The destruction of our car industry is due to it being too expensive to make things here.

    Same goes most of our manufacturing which has left. Back in the 1970’s we used to make everything. Now it is mostly gone. And most of it left under ALP rule.

  176. You said Hockey completely cut funding.

    Actually Neil

    There WAS $1 billion budgeted for, but the libs were going to cut half of that

    ……….

    How much did the Vic govt give?

    $22 Million

    “There is no question that the fact of the government being prepared to support the package with SPC has been the determining factor in this,” he told ABC radio.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/spc-ardmona-signs-70-million-deal-with-woolworths-20140311-34il3.html#ixzz2vcLdX7HM

  177. Where is the evidence they were leaving anyway. That was Hockey spin,

    Why say they were in talks with the government then:
    \
    \The company denied they had made any decisions.

    Mr. MacFarlane said they had not.

    Neil, where is your outcry about Mr. Troy Raymond Buswell, of WA. Goes to a wedding for hours, then takes cars and his fence out on his way home, driving a government car. Doesn’t seem to remember doing this.

    What is it about the coalition and weddings.

  178. Reality check is needed. The reason that manufacturing has has the stuffing kicked out of it, is because of the success our mining industrty.

    Yes, they all say, it was the high dollar. A high dollar caused by the super/windfall profits of those selling the rem, they dug up out of our ground.

    Even Mr. Stevens of the RBA said at senate committee hearings, that this high dollar did not perform, as in previous times. It generally balances itself out quickly, coming down to a more manageable level. This did not occur.

    Labor did attempt to deal with the effects of the high dollar, by bringing a MRRT type tax,.

    Thanks to many millions of dollars spent by the mining industry, and Mr. Abbott’s no no no, this did not happen.

    Yes, we did eventually get a weak one, that came much to late.
    When one ;looks at the wage component of producing a Holden of 19%, it is very hard indeed to blame in all on unions and the workers. Cars are produced in country’s with high wages.

    Yes, we have seen much of our low wage manufacturing going offshore., We have still managed to have full employment. We have also benefit from having access to low cost goods from those countries.

    Seems a win win to me.

    We also g0ot through the GFC unscathed,

    We had in place, which now has disappeared much new infrastructure that prepared us for the Asian century.

    Yes, that deficit so many obsess about was trending down under Labor. Not so now.

    What we are now losing, and I feel it should not be happening, is we are losing our high technology and initiative industry. Something we have prove, we do as well as anyone.

    It is not about low wages. In fact we cannot complete on that playing field.

    It is having a highly educated and clever workforce. No reason why we cannot win there.

    Except it will never happen under Abbott.

    It is called investing in the future of the nation.

  179. Buswell was lucky to get home without killing someone. He hit more than one car on the way
    home.
    I have mentioned Buswell, as I am sick of the cherry picking that many practice, only looking at Labor offenders.

    One can find offenders across the political spectrum, as one does across mall levels of society.

    It he was Labor, that would be all we would be hearing from Neil today.

    Today, we have ABC4 trying to make a crime out of Gillard suggesting to Wilkie, he join Labor. Even Wilkie, to his merit, disagreed, saying there was nothing wrong in her approaching him.

    I do not even believe this is new story.

  180. The reason that manufacturing has has the stuffing kicked out of it, is because of the success our mining industrty.

    The other burden mining puts on our auto industry is taking the skilled tradesmen away when the boom is on. That also is my biggest fear come the next boom. We won’t have the pool of skilled tradesmen to fill the void.

    Although, it looks like tabot has that base covered.

    The Abbott government has quietly reopened a visa loophole that will allow employers to hire an unlimited number of foreign workers under a temporary working visa, in a move that unions say will bring back widespread rorting of the system.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/rort-fears-as-457-visa-loophole-reopened-20140311-34kgr.html#ixzz2vjX9wzUF

    Why should our kids become skilled tradesmen when we can ship ’em in. Our kids are much happier working in cafe’s for a flat rate anyway.

  181. “Why should our kids become skilled tradesmen when we can ship ‘em in. Our kids are much happier working in cafe’s for a flat rate anyway.

    For once i agree with you. A 457 visa can only be used when we don’t have the skilled workers here. Hard to believe. It is just easier to fly people in. Most probably because foreigners are easier to control.

    But these changes to the 485 visa are much worse.

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/gillards-student-visa-stunner/story-fnek2g32-1226598464551

    THOUSANDS more foreign students will get the green light to compete with young Australians for jobs next week, when Julia Gillard’s “Aussie-first” government expands a back-door work visa scheme…………..From March 23, all international students will be allowed to stay and work in any job for up to four years after they graduate from an Australian university.

    The number of foreigners on “485 skilled graduate” visas soared 74 per cent last year to 38,210 – the same number of unemployed Australians aged 20 to 24, who were searching for their first job in January.”

    And after staying for four years they will find a way to get permanent residence.

  182. But these changes to the 485 visa are much worse.

    Well, sorry, but I disagree with you there, because I am aware of how much money comes into this country from foreign students and the industry around it. The Universities make most (?) of their income from them, which increases their own ability to provide Australians with advanced education. imo, it is one of the main reasons our secondary education system rates so high. So I don’t mind them competing for low paid, unskilled work. Although I am sure we went through this last time you put that link up.

    I really have an issue with us outsourcing skilled labour however.

    Most probably because foreigners are easier to control.

    I think we both know “control” means “rip-off” 😉

  183. ” So I don’t mind them competing for low paid, unskilled work.”

    They are competing with the locals for high skilled University trained jobs. They are allowed to stay for 4 years after finishing their degree. But find ways of finding permanent residence.

    It is much worse because you spend years getting a degree.

  184. Tom R will be interesting to see how many jobs are available now on such things as power house shut downs. For a while, the jobs disappeared. There seem to be some improvement after Gillard tightened the rules up. After all, making employers prove they cannot get workers within the country, cannot be that hard.

    I seen a ad today, advertising, taking a car as part of wage packet. Claims worth up to $10,000 per year.

    Nothing about having to use it a t work. Big flashy ad, it was.

  185. This government has repealed 7 pieces of Labor legislation , that fits in with what Mr. Stevens is talking about.

    Mr. Henry has just accused Hockey of politicizing the Treasury. He should keep his mouth shut.

  186. Neil, you know there are more than one type of visa. You are deliberately merging two. There is a difference between student visa’s and temporary skill labor.

  187. How many massive lies does Abbott have to tell before his slavish followers will call him the liar he is instead of constantly engaging in look over there at Labor.

    In 2012 Abbott said this:

    The one thing that the Australian workers will find is that I am their best friend. What I want to see is higher wages and more jobs. That’s what I was like when I was the workplace relations minister.

    Now he says Australian workers are overpaid and need their wages, awards and conditions pared back or removed.

    So now we have consumer confidence plunging because they are afraid of losing their jobs or having their pay cut.

    Business confidence and forward expansion plans are down because of Abbott’s policies, or lack of them.

    And Australia is stuffed because they elected a party that lied through its teeth to get into government and has supporters who for some reason are OK with that but not OK with anyone else lying, even when they aren’t lies.

    ….and here comes more look over there at Labor instead of directly addressing the lie after lie this government is telling.

  188. “There is a difference between student visa’s and temporary skill labor.

    Exactly. And the student visa (485 visa) does more damage to locals than the 457. On a 485, Gillard change the rules so foreign students can stay and work for 4 years before they go home. But they will find a way to stay anyway.

    Looks like both sides of politics are in agreement on these visas.

  189. Neil’s on his racist “Russian PhD” rant again 🙄

    You surely wouldn’t seek to mislead here would you Neil? 😉 It’s only PhD students that can work for up to four years under these changes. A bachelor degree only entitles the student to two years…

  190. Another inconvenient fact, that our vistors choose to ignore i that there is no wage blow out. That Labour productivity has been growing Albeit, not at a high rate.

    It is capital that seems to have gone on strike, Yes, employer producitivity is going backwards.

    If this is the case, how can lowering wages help

  191. It’s only PhD students that can work for up to four years under these changes.

    Is that right?? Only PhD students?? And that makes it OK??

    Some poor bugger spends 8 years getting a PhD and then finds he has to compete with thousands of foreign students studying in Australia for a job.

    I think it stinks.

    And then the foreign student find ways of getting permanent residence. And if that fails they apply for asylum. They say they are from some persecuted Christian group or political group back home.

  192. Oh dear, disunity in the solidly united Liberal party, which supposedly differentiates them from Labor.

    The Abbott and Hockey show: lots of fighting, not much cohesion

    Haven’t we been talking about cracks in the Liberal party for a while now and that Abbott is rightly unpopular even in his party.

    And who would have thought, Abbott erratic. Well everyone except his blind and adoring gormless followers here.

  193. So Abbott said Australia couldn’t afford $25 million to save SPC or continue to give money to prop up manufacturing in this country, but he can all of sudden find $100 million to throw at South Australia immediately before an election to prop up the Liberal’s chances there.

    What a disgraceful and wanton Federal government we have.

  194. It is much worse because you spend years getting a degree.

    I agree with that Neil. I hadn’t read the fact about applying for the tertiary positions. Having recently(?) completed Uni, I know how hard and debilitating looking for work in a field in which you have just invested a lot of energy and money into is, without the extra competition.

    I would argue however that the damage by this change is far less than than the 457 visas, mainly because, these students are already here, whereas 457 allows employers to actively seek employees from overseas, and, as we have seen before the rules were tightened, and which have now been released again, not always before looking locally. I know that while applying for tertiary trained jobs, in most industries, it is already a global market, so these changes don’t have such a dramatic effect on the market.

    But, it is still not a good change. The libs are not the only ones capable of making stupid decisions, Labor have their fair share of them too.

    Having said that, I have just read what Bacchus said at March 12, 2014 @ 8:56 pm, which changes the metrics considerably. So, while still not great for locals, is no where near as bad as you are making out. And barely rates as a blip on the radar when compared to the damage the 457 visas have already done.

  195. but he can all of sudden find $100 million to throw at South Australia

    If Labor were smart here ME, they would highlight this against the backdrop of what Hockey did to Holden because of his “Age of Entitlement” ideology (which doesn’t appear to extend to “D-Fens”)

  196. What a disgraceful and wanton Federal government we have.

    To rub salt into the wounds

    The government has paid nearly a million dollars to cover its sudden axing of Australia’s peak drug and alcohol body, documents reveal.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/fiona-nashs-decision-to-axe-drug-and-alcohol-adviser-has-cost-1-million-20140312-34mqs.html#ixzz2vmog11ye

    And in regard to the 457 rorts, it appears that, like everything else they do, the outcome has been decided before the review

    Unions not invited to participate in the independent panel that will review the 457 skilled migration visa have criticised the body as being ”stacked”.

    As Immigration Minister Scott Morrison brushed aside suggestions that he had opened the way to a flood of new skilled migrants on 457 visas, the unions increased criticism of the panel.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/panel-reviewing-457-visa-stacked-against-local-workers-say-unions-20140312-34mqh.html#ixzz2vmpcnhv7

    Say what you like about about Labor and their reviews, but they were always broad, and inclusive of a wide range of opinions.

  197. Tom R the $100 million is in military spending that goes to RAAF Edinburgh, and is blatant pork as those assets should be going to RAAF Darwin or RAAF Pearce.

    Because it’s military spending and the Labor opposition attacked it, it would immediately be turned around as an attack on tough border protection and defending our country.

  198. Say what you like about about Labor and their reviews, but they were always broad, and inclusive of a wide range of opinions.

    Indeed they were often delusively criticised by the Abbott opposition and media for not being inclusive enough and for there being too many instead of getting on with the job.

    So here we have a government that has implemented or announced the most amount of (blatantly stacked and narrow) enquiries, committees and reviews in our history, yet not one squeak of protest from the media or right wing posters who were so vocal against Labor’s reviews.

  199. Because it’s military spending and the Labor opposition attacked it,

    I don’t think they need to attack it, just use it as a counterpoint to highlight the loss of Holden.

    Labor in this state appear to be far smarter than their Federal counterparts in how they go about “Attacks”

    They do it with a sublime underhand, as the rabids in the media go all out in outrage, only to realise that they are the ones that have overplayed their hand.

    Mind you, I am sure the media still inflict a lot of damage on the Labor party here also. Last election, and the “waitress affair” almost knocked them off. And channel 7 still haven’t got over losing their court case against Rann, which is evident in their current “reporting”. It is going to be an interesting weekend here to say the least 😉

  200. enquiries, committees and reviews in our history

    And what is amazing is the focus in which many of these “reviews” are targetted on the previous Governemnt, all with the target of finding out what apparently went wrong, which is assuming that something went wrong to start with. As I said previously, the outcome is decided, now they review it.

    Malcolm Turnbull has appointed seasoned executive and public figure Bill Scales to conduct what the Communications Minister today described as an “independent audit” of the policy development process which led to the previous Government’s National Broadband Network project, in an effort which is already being described as a “witch hunt” against Labor.

    http://delimiter.com.au/2014/03/07/witch-hunt-turnbull-opens-labor-nbn-policy-review/

  201. “I would argue however that the damage by this change is far less than than the 457 visas, mainly because, these students are already here

    The reason the 485 visa rules were changed was to make it a more attractive destination for overseas students. You used to have to pay a lot of money to get a degree and then go back home. Allowing foreign students to work for up to 4 years makes it a more attractive proposition. Universities get lots of money from fee paying foreign students and the more the better for Uni’s

    And i repeat again. Foreign students use these visas as an anchor to get permanent residence. These are part of the so-called refugees who fly in.

  202. The reason the 485 visa rules were changed was to make it a more attractive destination for overseas students.

    Are you completely mad?

    Oops, stoopid question. 😳

  203. Would that be those same students who spend all their days perving at Bondi beach? If your memory serves you well, you might even have the capacity to recall your comment of a couple of weeks ago where you made that absurd statement.

    Do a Google search for “ridiculous comments made by Neil of Sydney”. I’m confident you’ll find it in the first 100 pages of the search results.

  204. “Are you completely mad?”

    maybe i did not explain myself correctly. 485 visa rules were changed so Universities could attract more foreign students

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/gillards-student-visa-stunner/story-fnek2g32-1226598464551

    The scheme’s expansion has angered unions and prompted warnings from within Ms Gillard’s own party that foreign students will snatch jobs from local graduates.

    But Immigration Minister Brendan O’Connor said the change was “intended to make Australia a more attractive destination for high-quality overseas students”.

  205. Allowing foreign students to work for up to 4 years makes it a more attractive proposition. Universities get lots of money from fee paying foreign students and the more the better for Uni’s

    I agree Neil, but, this factors in the huge amounts of money that foreign students bring into this country with them. Compare that with what low paid but high skilled 457 visas bring? Nothing but lowering pay rates. There is no external benefit unlike the 458 changes bring.

    The profits generated to our Universities by the foreign programs is massive, and largely ignored by our msm

  206. Exactly Tom – overseas students pay somewhere in the order of $10,000 per semester to study at Australian universities, probably more for PhD. That’s good income for the universities.

    The other point Neil misses is that Australian students also go overseas to find work when they complete their degrees. When I was at uni back in the ’90s, a role of one of the professors was to recruit IT graduates for work in the USA.

    Also, overseas governments actively recruit students to study in their universities by paying full tuition fees and providing a small living allowance – I know Japan does this and have heard that China also uses this incentive.

    Son completed a paid internship of 3 months in Japan as part of his degree (as well as being paid ¥80,000 per month by the Japanese government to study there for a year prior to that), and was offered work by that company when he’d completed his degree.

    A former colleague is now working in Shanghai for a very large mulinational company based in San Francisco.

    This graduate employment lurk isn’t all a one way street…

  207. Yes Bacchus

    I was assuming the rules were the same for ALL graduates. Your pointing out that the 4 years is only for PHD graduates changed that a lot.

    Graduate work is vastly different from skilled labour in global employment.

    It is interesting that the murdoch paper had such a negative article about this, but seems fine with the 457 changes. It indicates their blatant bias imo

  208. “Exactly Tom – overseas students pay somewhere in the order of $10,000 per semester to study at Australian universities, probably more for PhD. That’s good income for the universities.

    Exactly and that is why they do it. Not so great if you were born here and have to compete for a job with thousands of foreign students under the new 485 visa rules.

    The other point Neil misses is that Australian students also go overseas to find work when they complete their degrees.

    No I don’t miss the point.

    The point you don’t understand is that we have 20 million people, an English speaking country and a nice place to live.

    China has one billion, Russia has 150 million, Ukraine has 50 million, Poland has 50 million people. And they all want to live here if they had a choice.

    We will never flood the market overseas but students and job seekers from those counties could easily flood ours.

  209. A few Facts and not bullshit.
    1) 80% of Small Business set up go broke in 2 years or less.
    2) 80% of that 80% go broke due to poor management which includes.
    a) Failing to operate the business themselves and sit at home for lifestyle.
    b) Buying or commencing a business to which their personality is not suited.
    c) Carrying too much borrowing and set up costs.
    d) Failure to budget correctly at the outset.
    e) Taking too much in drawings ( read wages and lifestyle money) bleeding the company dry.
    f) Employee theft not nipped in the bud or investigated early.

    A miniscule amount actually close due to employee salaries being too high.

  210. Listening to 92.50 FM on the Central Coast NSW. The local business men have had the Senate Hearings on the NBNCo meet here. They are pushing hard for NBNCo to the home. Many case studies of those who are also benefiting. Yes, business men across the political spectrum, regardless of party. They are saying anything less that 1 gig is useless.

    With the area now connected, has led to many workers, working from home two or three days a week. They are concerned that Business Parks, like the one at Tuggerah are to miss out. Some in these parks have told the government, if the present NBNCo is not continued, t5hey will be going where they have access. They need to do this, to continue with their present business plans.

    It seems that Google wants to set up special areas, that bring in a lot of money, in areas that have the fib re to the premise. This area is among one of the thirty in the world that are available.

    Yes, it appears that NBNCo will put us out among the world leaders when it comes to broadband.

    If one takes 5% of traffic of the F3 going into Sydney, will mean a 20% improvement of traffic flow on the roads into Sydney. 20% improvement, is a mass saving for any government.

    Abbott getting a hard time in SA. Fist he should have the premiere at his launched. It appears that Abbott does not want anyone with him, that wants to pick a fight. Code for, I will not deal with anyone that disagrees with me, so do not bother electing Labor on Saturday. So if one disagrees, one is picking a fight..

    Second being question hard on what Henry had t5o say yesterday. Henry pointed out, that the so called carbon tax and MRRT are a important part5 of taxation reform. Abbott’s PPL is not.

    He announced that his drones will be based in SA. Yes, and we need them to stop people from approaching our shores, The question one asks, if this is the case, why SA. Why not WA or the NT.

  211. Where is the Indigenous PM, when it was announced that there are at least 30 intellectually impaired Aborigines in prison. Ones that have not been convicted of any crime. Surely he would be out this morning announcing money, to house them, and increasing the money to legal aid to protect them.

    Not a word heard from this PM.

  212. I believe Hockey’s Audit Commission can only look at expenditure not revenue.
    If t5his is the case, that means every piece of expenditure can only be assessed within this context.

    Therefore when it is judge we cannot afford anything, it is because the revenue base is not to be changed.

    They do not have the option to suggest, yes we can afford something,m but new ways of funding has to be found. A entirely different situation.

    They are only saying any program is unsustainable because, they have to be funded under present revenue.

  213. Palm, you did not answer my question. How much more will a meal cost on the weekend. The answer you did give, seems to back up what I and Palmer are saying.

    As for yours, does productivity improves on the weekends. Palmer says it does, that is the busiest time in this type of industries. If there is not more trade on weekends, why open. That is saying their is no great demand.

  214. More government waste.

    …The government has paid nearly a million dollars to cover its sudden axing of Australia’s peak drug and alcohol body, documents reveal.

    A leaked report from the administrator winding up the Alcohol and Other Drug Council of Australia shows the government has paid out more than $949,000 so far because of the decision by beleaguered Assistant Health Minister Fiona Nash to cut the organisation’s funding without notice.
    Liberal MP Dr Mal Washer

    “It was dumb advising dumber – dumb won”: Former ADCA president Mal Washer. Photo: Alex Ellinghausen

    Public health groups and former Liberal MP and council board president Mal Washer have said the decision was ill-informed, especially given the organisation cost only between $1.3 million and $1.6 million annually…..

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/fiona-nashs-decision-to-axe-drug-and-alcohol-adviser-has-cost-1-million-20140312-34mqs.html#ixzz2vnpVR9ms

  215. What party did Dr. Washer belong to?

    ……….Dr Washer, who has resigned because he says the lack of funding made his position untenable, said the decision was ”a bloody tragedy”. ”This wasn’t subject to any review . . . it was dumb advising dumber, and dumb won,” he said.

    He believed that once the building and other assets were sold there could still be a shortfall of money needed to pay off costs.

    One of the council’s major functions is to provide a library and resource service for people working in the drug and alcohol sector. That service will now be considered as part of a $45,000 review of drug and alcohol funding Senator Nash implemented after her decision.

    Curtin University professor of public health Mike Daube said it was unclear whether the funding had been cut through a ”stuff-up, a conspiracy or both”.

    ”ADCA was a high priority organisation, and they will have to reinvent it at some stage, but with at least a million dollars wasted along the way,” he said. ”If they quite rightly think this [library] is important, why did they scrap ADCA before they had worked out how to keep it going?”

    Labor health spokeswoman Catherine King said the government had been driven by ideology rather than sound policy.

    According to the administrator’s documents, the organisation reached a settlement with the Department of Health ”as a result of its decision to defund the company without notice” for $697,790.

    There have also been more than $250,000 in administrator’s fees either approved or sought so far…….

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/fiona-nashs-decision-to-axe-drug-and-alcohol-adviser-has-cost-1-million-20140312-34mqs.html#ixzz2vnpy2Qny

  216. The man that seems to have got under Abbott’s skin this day.

    ……. PM called shots on sacking of Treasury secretary

    One of Australia’s most respected economists has lashed Treasurer Joe Hockey for his criticism of Treasury secretary Martin Parkinson, warned that Australia cannot afford new social policies without tax reform and predicted the GST will have to rise to tackle structural holes in the budget.

    A day after Fairfax Media revealed former prime minister John Howard and treasurer Peter Costello both urged Mr Hockey to keep Dr Parkinson in one of the nation’s top economic roles – a call ignored by Prime Minister Tony Abbott – former Treasury secretary Ken Henry lashed the present government for its treatment of his Treasury successor…

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/gst-must-rise-says-exhead-of-treasury-ken-henry-20140312-34n0i.html#ixzz2vnqYUEI0

  217. Talking down the economy is coming home to roost for Abbott and Hockey.

    …. PM called shots on sacking of Treasury secretary

    One of Australia’s most respected economists has lashed Treasurer Joe Hockey for his criticism of Treasury secretary Martin Parkinson, warned that Australia cannot afford new social policies without tax reform and predicted the GST will have to rise to tackle structural holes in the budget.

    A day after Fairfax Media revealed former prime minister John Howard and treasurer Peter Costello both urged Mr Hockey to keep Dr Parkinson in one of the nation’s top economic roles – a call ignored by Prime Minister Tony Abbott – former Treasury secretary Ken Henry lashed the present government for its treatment of his Treasury successor…….

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/gst-must-rise-says-exhead-of-treasury-ken-henry-20140312-34n0i.html#ixzz2vnqYUEI0

  218. We will never flood the market overseas but students and job seekers from those counties could easily flood ours.

    Could, but most look towards the USA first, followed closely by Canada and Europe. The 487 visa change was an attempt to make our universities more attractive to this lucrative trade…

  219. The journalist seems to do their job in the motrher counrty. FM made a hasyh of thins, Is that anything new?

    …….ulie Bishop must have left her briefing notes behind when she confronted a BBC journalist who accused her government of operating a kind of ”Guantanamo Bay” for asylum seekers on Nauru and Papua New Guinea’s Manus Island.

    Either that or the normally unflappable foreign affairs minister was so taken aback by the depiction of the government’s ”uncivilised” conduct, she forgot a few facts when defending Operation Sovereign Borders to a British audience.
    Illustration: Ron Tandberg

    First came the assertion that the claims of asylum seekers ”are processed in third countries, and then we look for resettlement in other countries, including in Australia – and we’ve done this before and it worked”.

    If this were the case, some of the concerns of human rights agencies would be allayed, but the message to boat arrivals is that they will never be resettled in Australia.

    According to Immigration Minister Scott Morrison, the only resettlement option for those on Manus Island whose refugee claims are recognised is resettlement in Papua New Guinea, even though this is a matter of conjecture in PNG. The same, it appears, goes for those on Nauru….


    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/befuddled-julie-bishop-confuses-the-facts-over-sovereign-borders-20140312-34mq2.html#ixzz2vnsHwHLs

  220. The announcement on drones, does not include, how much they will cost. Not where they will be bought from. Nor any description of what they are. All that has been announced is they will be based at SA and funded by deference.

  221. That’s not true Fu.

    They will be Triton surveillance drones and this government plans to spend up to $3 billion on them.

    They are throwing $100 million at SA as pork for the State Liberals election campaign to base the drones at RAAF Edinburgh.

    So this government can’t find money for vital social and other services and is promising a horror budget because of that, but it can instantly find billions for a few asylum seekers that they say they have stopped.

    This is worse than when Howard said he had stopped asylum seekers but still spent hundreds of millions on building offshore detention centres and keeping them open. A program by the way Abbott has now proven failed.

  222. ME, teaches me not to take a face value what the ABC 24 had to say.

    Maybe the question should be, do we need them?

    Still Abbott’s perfor5mance was weak.

  223. I see, they are being condemned for their Sri Lanka efforts. Lives being put in danger. Then we have another legal officer leaving Nauru, as he cannot be guarantee that Justice will survive. A country that is both legally and ;politically in trouble. A country that is unstable to say the least.

    Cannot see the PNG scheme surviving any court action in this country. The same conditions that force Gillard to back down in the Malaysian Solution will apply top Manus Island.

    Both the Islands do not look to be a long term solution.

    All they are going to be left with, is turning back boats. That over time will become a farce.

    No one knows what Indonesian actions will be after the elections. I cannot see them being favorable to Abbott.

    No ME, I must be careful when I repeat what ABC 24 says.

  224. @TomR – you’re very quite about CONroy’s satellite NBN – 48,000 user limit when the liar said it would be 250,000.

    Typical of the ALP. Thank Allah no kid lives in poverty anymore.

  225. @Bacchus – I knocked back an offer to study at the Lenin School in Moscow. Lee Rhiannon (then a Smith) took my place instead. To think I could have been a Senator.

  226. By the way, FM Bishop thinks the ABC has a conflict of interest when it comes to our overseas broadcasting. Of course Murdoch would not.

  227. @FedUP Captain’s Pick Nova Knee-bone Peris is probably enjoying a latte somewhere. Her breathtaking speeches have gone viral throughout the world on YouTube. This was one of Juliar’s better decisions. Aboriginal health has improved, as well as NAPLAN results.. What a legend.

  228. OMG @FedUp Productivity is not an increase in turnover. Obviously you’ve never run a business, employed people or been in a senior management position – bet you’re a public servant !!!!!!

  229. @Fed Up – meanwhile 49 other drug and alcohol committees, all funded by the taxpayer with appearance fees, travel & meals, continue to be busy cutting & pasting the other 48 bodies report so they can issue a new report to justify their existence.

  230. Oi Fed Up – Murdoch only had a 13% interest in the group going for the contract, which it won twice, and which the corrupt ALP then gave to its stooges, #theirABC, a coven of evil Grens and Commies (interchangeable).

  231. Of course the biggest 457 visa rorter was PM Gillard.

    Apparently 457 visas are to be used when we cannot find anyone with the needed skills in Australia.

    Nobody in Australia can do what Gillards media advisor John McTernan did who was here from Britain on a 457 visa??

  232. My god a spray of posts and everyone a fountain of gibberish.

    Bad isn’t close to describing them.

    Hey palmersaurus as you keep having a go at Labor why aren’t you having an even worse go at a certain dentist Liberal endorsed local candidate and the heinous act he committed?

    Should have got a long jail term but of course being a Liberal endorsed fellow of the upper crust and a person of substance because of it a tap on the wrist and go away my good chap. Right wing double standards, as so perfectly exemplified by palmersaurus here, on show again.

  233. I see, there is special hate for Labor women, All women, I suspect. As they say, onecanonlylaugh.

    Not one comment made sense.

  234. Mods, off topic, sorry, but the last two times that I have made comments in Café Talk they were not registered in ‘recent comments’ 😕 :shouldershrugsmiley: 😀

  235. Got to admit that is the ALP for you.

    Whinging about the misuse of 457 visas while PM Gillard employs McTernan, her media advisor on a 457 visa.

    Apparently nobody in Australia had McTernan skills.

  236. I don’t know why that’s happening LOVO. I’ve noticed it the case with some comments that went up on the How To page as well. They appear on the page, but not under recent comments.

    Weird stuff. I’ll look into it.

  237. Mobious dear boy – here’s something I posted over at The Conversation:

    I’m afraid Dhugal that you are off the mark. History shows that the ALP is more corrupt. Excluding half the senior members of the last NSW ALP government who have been found to be corrupt by ICAC, Wiki has a list of all Aussie pollies who have been convicted of offences. To summarise

    Federal: 2 ALP, 1 LNP
    NSW: 3 ALP, 2 LNP (lots of ALP to come)
    Qld: 5 ALP, 4 LNP (surprising given Joh’s reign)
    Tas: 1 ALP, 0 LNP
    Vic: 3 ALP, 1 LNP
    WA: 2 all – a tie

    Clearly the ALP are the winners !!!!!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_politicians_convicted_of_crimes

  238. you’re very quite about CONroy’s satellite NBN

    You’ll have to enlighten me about what turnbull is misrepresenting now. Keeping up with his lies is a full time job

  239. Sorry palmersaurus that proves absolutely nothing, and considering the way the right wing harps on about Labor corruption I would have thought it would be much worse than those piddling figures.

    Then lets not forget the systematic rorting by the Federal Liberals, some who on being caught out still refused to pay back their rorted money. And this doesn’t get close to the jobs for the boys at huge expense to us and the massive cost of Liberal MPs, especially PMs as compared to Labor ones.

    Then there are those pollies on all sides who have been corrupt but got away with it. Abbott comes to mind on that one.

    But my point wasn’t a rort and I though you would have looked up the dentist story. Of course because it’s a Liberal the MSM are keeping it mostly mum, but it’s far worse than just rorting expenses or corruption.

    And Wiki as a source, hardly comprehensive and possibly not accurate.

    Isn’t palmersaurus’s hypocrisy breathtaking Tom R. He goes on about you being quiet but is always, and I mean always silent about Liberal malfeasance, lies, deceits and policy failures, and constantly jumps back to Labor as a distraction or diversion.

    As I keep saying as the proof is in the pudding, nothing displays just how bad this current government is than their gormless rusted on supporters not being able to defend them but instead having to constantly use attacks on Labor as an obfuscation.

  240. Being convicted of a crime means you were caught. It does NOT mean the rest are honest. When you can steal from the taxpayer and then pay it back without a conviction or record, after being caught, then the law is an arse and the figures are lies.

  241. It does NOT mean the rest are honest.

    wasn’t there a liberal in SA who got caught stealing. She didn’t get a conviction, something about a breakdown. We now have someone in WA, who has crashed a car, after spending an afternoon drinking at a wedding, who is playing the same defence.

    Perhaps that is what Thom(p)son should have gone with?

  242. Peta Credlin got off purely because of her position with Abbott and it goes on. The worst of them all, Howard and Downer got off for their taking us to an illegal war, and Downer triply so for his underhanded screwing of the East Timorese.

    The AWB board walked away not only Scott free but with bonuses and Downer along with his department barely got a look at when they should have been bought down.

    Howard’s office likewise were always bypassed in scrutiny of his corruptions like Children Overboard. The person he blamed was promoted out of that position as a reward, and you will find that misconduct throughout Howard’s reign.

    One good thing Abbott may have done in opening a Pandora’s box by releasing Cabinet papers on Labor is that there is now no excuse why Labor cannot release them on the whole Iraq war and Howard’s role in it. There will be nothing more damning for any government in our history than those papers.

    ————————————–
    This isn’t a pissing contest about whose worst or better and never has been. It’s wrong by all sides, even the supposedly pristine Greens and indeed the Democrats at times.

    What I will point out is that the left are far more willing to call out their own and condemn them than right ever are for their own. You need only look at our constant and heavy criticism of the NSW Labor government for evidence of that. Indeed you will have a better chance of getting blood out of stone than have a right wing ideologue criticise his party for anything minor, let alone malfeasance and corruption. Their response is to always divert back to Labor, and palmersaurus, as I knew he would given his long history, provided a perfect example of that narrow ideological mindset.

    What is also not addressed by using how many convictions is the seriousness of a corruption that doesn’t get a conviction.

    The case I alluded to was the very recent proudly Liberal endorsed local council member Andrew Istephan. A dentist who on the surface was doing a great service by going around to nursing homes and providing cheap dental work to the aged, frail, bedridden and those with dementia.

    But he was only providing cheap dental work upfront, and was performing unnecessary work on these patient, including filing down their teeth so they would require crowns etc. so as to claim for the extra more expensive procedures.

    Yet he escaped jail. Andrew Istephan escapes jail over unnecessary dental work on nursing home patients

    I have no doubt if he was a Labor endorsed local member we would not be hearing the end of it and the MSM would hound him and the Party until he got jail. There would be demands for inquiries and the Labor party would be accused of preying on the elderly.

    There’s the stark difference and hypocrisy of the right.

  243. there is now no excuse why Labor cannot release them on the whole Iraq war

    Don’t you have to be in Government to be able to do that?

  244. Yes Tom that is correct she was caught stealing. Others have been caught doing illegal things as well and getting let off. Cover ups seem to be the norm for politicians. There were more MPs from the conservative side found to have diddled the tax payer under Julia Gillard than ALP. I think the difference is that the LNP seem to think they have a God given right to claim anything and everything as a legitimate expense which is utter rubbish and a big theft of taxpayers money.

  245. Yes Tom, but as much as the Liberals think they will be in power forever and as much as they are setting up a neo-autocratic system disguised as democracy eventually they will be kicked out as they always deservedly are.

    In the meantime this woeful government is setting so many precedents that the right can never scream unfair or accuse any other government of being undemocratic when they engage in the same tactics. Hell, I know the MSM will, being the blatantly self serving biased arseholes they are, but I believe as much as they throw tantrums of unfair and undemocratic it won’t much wash.

  246. This is what I meant by Abbott sneaking in WorkChoices.

    Comparing the Rudd-Gillard Governments’ Fair Work Act 2009 with the Abbott Government’s Fair Work Amendment Bill 2014

    So where are the right wingers up in arms as Abbott is breaking a promise worse than Howard’s never ever GST? Abbott is not even taking IR reforms to an election as he promised, but like everything he does is doing it underhandedly.

    Abbott was talking absolute bullshit that WorkChoices was dead and buried and would never be bought in under a government he led. The man is one big walking pile of constantly reeking bullshit. It oozes our of his mouth every moment of every day.

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