Kevin Andrews Targets Dole and Disability Payments

Kevin Andrews is to target dole and disability payments. With claims that the system risks becoming unsustainable. He has decided to limit the scope of the review to these two areas, claiming it to be a limited review. He has decided the Age Pension will not be reviewed nor will Family Tax Benefits part A and B nor will the PPL scheme that they are proposing to introduce. Too many people think of welfare as being dole and pensions but it also includes anyone getting family payments which are working families earning wages and getting benefits as well.

It is obvious as to why the age pension and family payment will not be reviewed. Many of the Grey Nomads are LNP voters and should the age pension or family payments be reviewed they would be out on their ear at the next election.

So they propose to attack the most vulnerable in our society the Disabled and the Unemployed.

So lets look at the figures more in depth over the last 10 years and see what has really happened since 2004.

1. Our population has increased by 16% or 3,274,891

2. Our Aged Pension numbers increased by 25% well above our population % increase and represent 48% of welfare recipients.

3. Our Disability Pensioners increased by 18% just above the population increase.

4. Our Carers increased by 164%, however many disabled are now cared for at home instead of in institutions or nursing homes actually saving the Government substantial costs.

5. Our Newstart Claimants increased by 36% or 177,580 over 10 years against a population increase of 3,274,891 representing 5% of our population increase and with our unemployment rate being over 5% it is actually better than what would be expected.

6. All other sectors in welfare claims actually declined, some by up to -89%.

7. In 2004 Age Pensioners represented 42% of welfare recipients. Now they represent 48%

8. If you remove Age Pensioners from the equation welfare recipient numbers grew by a measly 6,375 in 10 years or 0.24% yet our population increased in the same period by 16% or 3,274,891.

So much for Unsustainable.

So much for a massive rorting of the system.

This is nothing short of ideological hatred of those least able to defend themselves. Least able to climb the income ladder. Least able to vote (remember many disabled do not have the capacity to vote). So much for the claim that the ALP created a welfare state. The figures show the position to be the exact opposite. They also refute the absolute rubbish being spouted by the government, in an effort to demonise certain welfare recipients, to the rest of the community. Especially since the ALP was in Government for 6 of the 10 years analysed.

I hope people open their eyes and actually analyse figures being presented by the Government, because if you look deeper you see the real truth.

What a disgraceful attack on the least fortunate in our community for absolutely no reason other than to denigrate and humiliate the less fortunate.

I trust the review will come up with the same honest conclusion as I have, based on facts and figures and not ideology. Maybe I should I send the honourable MP Mr Andrews a bill for my review of the welfare system. I can guarantee it will be better value for money than the one he proposes and shows his review to be a total waste of taxpayers money.


241 comments on “Kevin Andrews Targets Dole and Disability Payments

  1. I Hope that fellow citizens can understand this despicable action, For crying out loud Just how many of these poor unfortunates are there ? I don’t have the figures But I will donate my right Testicle if it can be proven that the Poor souls are bleeding the Nation dry , they can save more money (its all they care about ) by Dumping that obnoxious Baby bonus , and refining the Pollie perks, Hang your Head in shame KEVIN ANDREWS I don’t know how you can sleep at night , Did super grub Tony give you a Bonus For coming up with this Thought Bubble, You are totally PATHETIC, and that is the Politest term I will use, You and your LNP mates are there to WORK for all the Population Not Just your wealthy Heartless Colleagues, What a GREAT Cabinet decision, I only wish that within your family there is someone who needs a disability payment , How many of these Poor souls are ripping the tax payers off, Bet you Cannot look at yourself in the Mirror what does your poor wife think about you , shame shame shame

  2. One should ask *why* the system is becoming unsustainable.. People are disabled, people are unemployed, but what about middle and upper class welfare, that which the Liberals will never ever tackle. Far easier to demonise the least able in our society. It seems that a disabled person is a blight on society yet Abbott will reward *superior women* for popping out babies.

  3. To all, who believe in small government and low taxes. All welfare is unsustainable.. What is more, they also see all welfare as unfair. Unfair to them, that is.

    It would not matter how many facts and figures one puts forward, they will still believe they are correct.

    It is not about less welfare. It is about no welfare.

  4. Kevin Andrews – the Darth Vader of politics, who sucks up compassion, tolerance and humanity and destroys it with malice aforethought. The fact this bastard calls himself Christian makes me sick, what hypocrisy, he wouldn’t know Christian charity if it jumped up in front of him and punched him on the kisser. And Voyager, you write some pretty puerile comments all the time, but the above is the most stupid yet. How about taxing the billlionaire corporations to make sure they pay their fair share and the coffers are fairly replenished? Oh, I forgot, you can’t touch the rich, you just kick those on benefits.

  5. I wonder how far, some want to cut benefits. They are now at a long time low. Low when compared to other countries. I will put the USA in that comparison.

    We already have them cut to the bone.

    It is the handouts, tax breaks and concessions to higher income earners that is the problem,.

    I wish those who want more cuts, would show us the figures and stats that show there has been an unsuitable increase in welfare payments in this land. Just does not exist.

    I see that child care fees have gone through the roof recently.

    Yes, user pay seems to be back in vogue. User pays, regardless if one can afford to or not. Yes, and tax breaks and handouts for the wealthy.

  6. I forgot to point out, Shane has described where we are at, very clearly.

    It is only unsustainable if you believe in small government and low taxes.

    If you believe it is every man for himself, and winner takes all. Then is is unsusatainable to you.

    If you believe that government is there , to distribute the wealth, look after the weak, educate the workers for the future, you spend what is needed.

    Yes, it is an investment in a better future for all.

    At the end of the day, the market needs well educated, and healthy workers. It needs the roads and technology to flourish in.

    The taxes, the government demands of business, supply the infrastructure for them.

    Yes, one should expect business to pay it; s way,so it doesn’t budge off the rest of society.

  7. Voyager. If John Howard had left the Employer Superannuation Contributions alone then they would have hit 15% of income in 2001 some 13 years ago and far less people would need the age pension. If John Howard did not introduce tax free lump sum superannuation benefits for those retiring and rather had left it as a retired pension then there would be far less people needing the age pension. If John Howard did not introduce massive tax free super contributions of up to $1,000,000 for those who could afford to dump it in their super in 1 year and then make earnings of that super tax free for up to $100,000 then we would have funds to pay the age pension. but n your answer is to cut from those least able. You really are a parrot of the LNP without the ability to think for yourself.

  8. Hi Min. It is only considered unsustainable if you take into account inflation, which each year pushes up the amount of each payment to at least help offset the cost of living to the poorest in our community. The only real reason it is becoming unsustainable is because of tax cuts and the continuing massive increase of distribution of government revenue to the rich via Tax Cuts, Negative Gearing, Rebates, Deductions and the stopping of the Superannuation Guarantee Levy at 9% by the Howard Government.

  9. Hi Cathy Markos. I have a down syndrome niece who is 28 with the mental age of a 7 year old and I also fear for her. I mainly fear for those who suffer manic depression and bi polar as these are not visible afflictions and yet in my mind are the worst disabilities of the lot as they affect the mental state of a person. Should the LNP demand these people go off Disability and onto Newstart then there will be a lot of suicides and self harm as well. I speak from experience in my family as well and although I cannot claim to know how they feel (as I do not personally suffer from depression) I have first hand experience on numerous occasions in walking into a house full of blood after self harm. These people would rather self harm than even set foot in a Centrelink office to drop off a form let alone a full review. So my interest in this issue is not political but rather built on family, experience, moral and humanitarian reasons. We are having yet another enquiry into deaths from the Insulation Scheme so I wonder if we will have an enquiry into suicides if they result from this disgraceful attack on the less fortunate and will the LNP be held responsible if such suicides eventuate.

  10. Thank you Shane for sharing your experiences For any Decent person To argue for cutting Benefits is Totally Unbelievable , And Reading “Voyagers ” Contributions I think he would qualify for some sort of Benefit, Keep taking the Pills .

  11. Thank you Greg. It truly is of great concern to me on a personal level but also highlights the ideological rantings of the current government and as most on here know I also put the boot into the ALP when I believe they are wrong.

  12. One thing that I find very offensive is the inference from the Libs is that they suggest that people *want to* get on the DSP as a work avoidance measure.

    In announcing the welfare review, minister Kevin Andrews pointed to the growing gap between the amount of money that people get on Newstart and on pensions. ”It creates a perverse disincentive for people to want to get onto the disability support pension,” he said.

    Are the Libs suggesting that you can somehow make-it-all-up, somehow conjur up a disability? Or are they suggesting that medical specialists (the ones who write the reports for Centrelink) are either 1. delusional and the person doesn’t really have a disability or 2. on the take.

  13. Of the folk on Newstart about 56 percent are not jobseekers. Many folk exempt from jobsearch sctivities like my wife who has a chronic condition resulting from breast cancer treatment receive newstart in lieu of disability or sickness payments

  14. Thanks for the well-researched post Shane.
    I see some additional factors which should be properly evaluated whenever “welfare reform” is being discussed, particularly when such “reform” is aimed at cutting benefits, and/or reducing recipient numbers.

    Firstly, I am old enough to remember the promises of the “age of computing” as touted by its proponents. Principal among such promises was the “freeing” of elements of the workforce, allowing the workers much more “leisure time” .

    Secondly, I understand,(from a position of relative ignorance) that our capitalist economy requires a certain level of unemployment (approx. 5% ?) to function properly.

    Wrt the first point, such “freeing up” did in fact occur, although it seems that the displaced workers have and are being penalised for sacrificing their jobs (for Society’s benefit) to software and/or machinery. Many tbeing forced onto welfare, through no choice of their own which however, remains well below subsistence levels.

    Given that in both the points I have briefly made, people have ended up “taking one” for the overall benefits to society, and yet are cruelly penalised for doing so,
    logic dictates that the most pressing area of “reform” required, is to ensure that minimum welfare payments are enough to sustain involvement in society.

    Increasing welfare payments to reflect affordable living costs, and regular adjustment wrt CPI or some such metric seems a logical outcome to me,. Although expensive, this could be achieved through taxing the enterprises and employers who substantially “pocketed” the productivity gains made through the sacrifices of their past employees,.

    Welfare expenditure remains “unsustainable”, only because the incompetent fools masquerading as “government” choose for it to be so.

  15. Ah Voyager, spoken like a loyal LibRorts Party automaton. If what you said was true, then why isn’t Abbott abandoning his plan to bring in an expensive, gold-plated PPL scheme? Why isn’t he talking up a means test for all of the Middle Class Welfare brought in during the Howard Era? Why is he planning on giving newlyweds $200 each for counseling? BTW, isn’t it funny that, after belly-aching about cuts to defense, in Opposition, he is now going to leave front line soldiers in the Middle East $19,000 per annum worse off? A measure which will save a piddling $20 million (oddly enough, the same cost as his stupid counseling vouchers idea).

  16. Abbott has apologized for accidental incursion into Indonesian waters. Does not seem to be accepted as accidental. Why not come out, just apologized.

  17. I receive a disability support pension and have a department of housing home, and without both I would have been in a wheelchair ten years ago (tried to keep working couldn’t and my previous rented home was badly set out for someone with MS – falling out of bath etc). I have been working casually for the last 5 years until my job folded and am now actively looking for more casual/part time work which I hope will eventually reduce my welfare dependency. Since living in the dept. housing I have come across people (certainly not all) who are on disability pensions who have never worked, never intended to work and will only work cash in hand. As far as I am concerned these bludgers should never have been allowed the DSP in the first place! When I ask why don’t they work, the reply is always the same ‘why should I, what has the government ever done for me?’.

    Currently I’m working with a disability employment service to get back into the workforce, have updated my education to post-graduate level, am doing voluntary work in my chosen profession to gain experience and get massive amounts of support from Centrelink, disability services etc.

    I welcome the reform of the disability pension to re-instill a sense of pride, independence and work readiness to the people who just do not want to work. Honestly I think this is the reform the government is talking about and it is overdue. Perhaps people who are against reform should come out with me for a few days and see what is really going on in the community!

    As an adult literacy/numeracy teacher who votes Labor I welcome any debate on this subject.

  18. “As an adult literacy/numeracy teacher who votes Labor I welcome any debate on this subject.”

    Yea sure you are.

    This is the thin end of the wedge. The only reason they are having a review is to save money and attack their enemies, the sick and the poor. The Tories would can the DSP period if they thought they could get away with it.

    Your throw away line ” Perhaps people who are against reform should come out with me for a few days and see what is really going on in the community! ” Is so condescending on this blog to be risible. There are people on this blog who have qualifications for working with people with social disadvantage.

    All social welfare is open to rorting, but I would have thought that logic would dictate, that a specialist has to sign off on anyone on a DSP, and Howard tightened the rules up on its application even further.

    Your burst is typical Tory double speak.

    Any debate on the DSP is not welcome. It will yes, catch a few rorters, but that is not the brief for these bastards, they want to cut it to the bone, but carry on with your subterfuge.

  19. As an aside, I see they’re taking money off the troops serving in the M.E. and Afghanistan. Of course Abbott apparently didn’t authorise it, but has given the decision by the military his full support. I may look like a cabbage, but I am not green. Still its not all bad, a good percentage of those soldiers would have voted for the Audi Murphy wanna be.

  20. Secondly, I understand,(from a position of relative ignorance) that our capitalist economy requires a certain level of unemployment (approx. 5% ?) to function properly.

    Correct, pterosaur. It’s called the NAIRU, a sweet little acronym for the repulsive”non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment” hypothesis.

    It’s a neo-liberal article of faith that says when unemployment is 5% there’s no wage pressure inflation. That’s why this government has no real interest in addressing the problem. Business needs this buffer-stock of misery to keep the workforce disciplined.

    As unemployment approaches 6% it’s an ideological choice for this government to ramp up the “blame the victims” rhetoric than to actually do something about it.

    That’s why we’ve got the Andrews initiative and Hartsuyker’s “Work for the Dole” plus Abetz’ warning of a “70’s style wages breakout” all within the last day or so.

    Whilst I sympathise, totally, with the general tone of the comments here, the really important issue, the knock-out argument, is being missed: no matter what the level of benefits, they can never be “unsustainable” given the structure of the nation’s financial arrangements. Our government is not financially constrained !

    Debt is not debt

  21. To rub salt further into the wound, apparently there are cuts planned also to be made for war veterans’ and war widow’s payments … The LNP Governments of the recent past decades have committed our armed forces to risk life and limb by being entrenched into wars and confrontations overseas … Veterans only seek being reimbursed and repatriated for war caused injuries and illnesses that have disrupted them and their families lives due to the horrid nature of wars … ABBOTT, you and your party are a disgrace, firstly by sending our DEFENCE FORCES overseas to fight in somebody elses conflict, and secondly, planning to cut the already meagre payments of reparation to our brave veterans who returned home broken in body and mind … You all should be ashamed of yourselves for treating veterans and their families in low esteem, especially when acted without dissension to go and be involved in your games of conflict …

  22. To expand Fed up’s link:

    “Economist say suggestions of a wages explosion are overblown”

    “The Federal Employment Minister Eric Abetz has warned that Australia is on the verge of a wages blow-out. But economists say the suggestion of a massive rise in wages is over-blown and there is a risk of letting politics override sound economic judgements.”

    The only explosions Abetz hears are his and his colleagues own brain farts.

  23. Some more background on this issue from Professor Mitchell providing a technical basis for dismissing Kevin Andrews’ proposals.

    The ageing society debate is at the forefront of calls to reduce government deficits. The debate is driven by the proposition that national governments will not be able to afford to maintain the spending necessary to support the growing demands for medical care and pension support as populations age.

    At some points, the argument goes, governments will run out of money and other public spending programs will become heavily compromised.

    The argument used to support the preference for surpluses in the context of an aging population is simple:

    (a) the budget cannot be allowed to reach the projected level because the increasing public debt would push interest rates up and ‘crowd out’ productive private investment;

    (b) increasing debt will also impose higher future taxation burdens for future generations, which will reduce their future disposable incomes and erode work incentives;

    (c) the economy must produce more jobs and people must work longer (retirement ages must be lifted) to accumulate more funds to finance their own retirements; and, in some nations it is argued that

    Bill Mitchell then proceeds to explain why these propositions are deeply flawed

    Ageing, Social Security, and the Intergenerational Debate – Part 1

  24. It’s a neo-liberal article of faith that says when unemployment is 5% there’s no wage pressure inflation. That’s why this government has no real interest in addressing the problem.”

    What a load of crap. Unemployment under Howard/Costello reached 4%- a number not seen since the 1970’s.

    Do i need to remind you of the unemployment rate under Hawke/Keating?? Do you remember the 30 months of double digit unemployment under Keating??

    Mangrove Jack i have always believed you are a false prophet.

  25. Just correcting leftoid mistakes which appears to be my lot in life.

    I remember my Dad telling me that under 23 years of Coalition rule during the Menzies era unemployment was at 2% and anyone who wanted a job could get one. If you didn’t like your job you left and just got another one.

    In 1972 Whitlam doubled that to 4%. Sound strange but back in those days 4% unemployment was regard as high. And it has been slowly going up until Howard/Costello got it back down to 4%.

  26. Didn’t we get warned of a ‘wage explosion’ when Labor took over back in 2007?

    I guess if they wish it hard enough…..

  27. I see tabots Great Big Gonski LIE is going to impact detrimentally to public schools, but perversely, not Private ones

    The Abbott government’s MYEFO documents presented its budget commitments for the next four financial years, from 2013-14 to 2016-17.

    Mr McMorrow’s report shows public schools will be worse off than private schools by the government’s decision to stick to the Gonski model for only four years.

    It shows the Abbott Government’s recent $1.2 billion funding commitment to WA, QLD and NT over 4 years has been “significantly funded” by cuts to trade training centre funding and before and after school care (worth $1.5 billion over 6 years).

    It also shows funding for public schools in 2016/17 will be $90 million lower than projected in the May 2013 budget, while for private school funding will be $34 million higher.

    “It would be helpful for the Government to explain these differences,” the report says.

  28. Ah those heady Menzies days, I remember them well, most folks having a second mortgage on their housing loans, only kids from rich families going on to university, (I don’t want my Johnny being a plumber says the bank manager perish the thought) Then there were the book banning’s, conservatives didn’t want you reading any of that lefty progressive shit oh no. No pornography thanks we are Menzies Australians.

    How I remember the T.V. license and all those inspectors knocking on your door. Then there was the standing up in the picture theatre to sing, no not the Australian anthem but God save the queen. Menzies favourite, being the Anglophile he was, and now get this Yes, a NAZI sympathiser was our Bob. Hell he didn’t even like Australia. What was it he said? Oh yes how he did love the Queen.

    ” I did see her but passing by and I will love her until the day I die” Or words to that effect.

    Yes in Menzies time there were still kids with Ricketts, the jails had people in them that couldn’t pay their bills, especially medical and dentist bills. Vagrants were locked up for being poor (Oh the irony of that) Then there was the Vietnam war, 585 Australians killed for S.F.A. so Menzies could crawl up the arse of the Kennedys and LBJ. All the way with LBJ was the Menzies refrain.

    Ah what about the workers? Yea they used to get killed wholesale because there were no safety standards period. Yea they even covered up the fact smoking was killing people along with Asbestos, all documented all true. etc. etc. etc.

    Menzies was a shyster no more no less.

    What a pity you didn’t learn anything during your sabbatical. How true.

  29. DUMP the CHUMPS, As I have Pointed out before Abbott and his Cronies do not give a Rats about working People, They will ignore all our sensible complaints , Complain to your Local MP about this Pathetic PM ,Don’t let them think we have lost our Voice and allow them to treat us with contempt, Secret deals about all sorts of Things we do not know about ,This Cunning chameleon of a PM is Kidding the Country ,

  30. Oh you mean that Menzies, the one who continued to sell raw materials to the countries he had declared war with in backing England. A true Tory, never let a country’s bottom line get in the way, even it it means the death of your own troops, screwing workers and treading on the less well off and those in need.

    But even Menzies would be turning in his grave at seeing what Howard has done to his Party to corrupt it and he would positively flipping out at Abbott.

  31. Read a statement that could not be truer about the Liberals.

    “The Liberals exist purely to perpetuate the Liberals.”

    It’s not about governing the country well, looking after its assets and people but all about keeping the Liberals in power to help those with a vested interest in greed who do everything to keep them in power.

  32. A small detail Neil, I was talking about the NAIRU.

    If you knew anything about economics you’d know that it rises and falls.

    It’s probably 18 months since I heard Glenn Stevens talking about the “NAIRU being around 5%”. I’m guessing it’s probably still around that number given that inflation has been pretty stable.

    The RBA uses the NAIRU in it’s monetary policy calculations.

    Unemployment did rise under Whitlam (a consequence of the first “oil shock” that reverberated around the world) but do you know what happened after that ?

    Note that the last time Australia had a current account surplus was when Whitlam was PM.

    Funny your Dad eulogising the Menzies era: that was the era of Keynesian dominance, the “Golden Age”. Then along came the supply-siders and turned it all upside down.

  33. I remember the Menzies years, of horror budgets and stop go economies. A time, of waste, in the post war boom.

    For the longest serving PM, I recall very little that he achieved.

    It was not a golden age. It was a time of unnecessary struggle for most.

  34. I suspect that Whitlam had lower unemployment for a short period.

    Can remember many days under Menzies, after his horror budgets, that jobs were like hens teeth.

    So was accommodation, as an aside.

    Do not forget how many years, when talking about Menzies. Had to get it right sometimes.

    Can one remember what the rate of taxation was back then?

  35. Another must read. Yes, what did the ABCC really do. Did it have anything to do with crime.

    .The ABCC and the law

    Essentially, the ABCC is a civil law regulatory body designed to monitor and enforce industrial law. The substance of the ABCC’s work involves civil prosecution of building workers and the CFMEU for exercising industrial rights in accordance with international labour law. Perhaps the government could be forgiven for confusing these extraordinary industrial law powers with the coercive power of criminal law.

    To date, the federal government’s crusade against “fair work” for construction workers has been motivated by an economic imperative to “improve productivity”. The government’s evidence for this claim is questionable. But if the productivity enhancing powers of the ABCC have lost credibility, it appears a new imperative of “stamping out corruption” might wash better…..

    ………..The preservation of industrial democracy requires that all sides – unions, employers and the State – uphold the rule of law. This means that when serious crime is committed, it must be referred to an appropriate arm of the State for prosecution. State and federal police forces, their allied public prosecution agencies, as well as the Australian Crime Commission, all have extensive powers of criminal investigation and prosecution. The proposed ABCC is unfit for this purpose. It does not possess the power to prosecute serious crime, and nor should it.

    Meanwhile, the investigative powers of the ABCC breach the rule of law in the name of upholding it. In this context, a revived ABCC is code for an authoritarian urge by the federal government to create a specialised workforce police targeting workers and their unions…………

  36. Mate you lefties haven’t changed since i last posted.

    Still full of hate for anyone who has contrary views. Still believing that lefties are more moral than anyone else and are the only ones who care about people. And still believing that the Hawke/Keating era was the golden age, where from memory unemployment averaged 8% and was at over 10% for 30 months.

    Ah those heady Menzies days, I remember them well, most folks having a second mortgage on their housing loans”

    That is not what i was told. During Menzies a man could provide for a wife and 3 kids and buy a house with only one person working. Consumer goods were expensive but you could buy a house.

  37. “That is not what i was told”

    I would imagine with the amount of tosh you put on here, you are told a lot of things that were/are wrong. I was alive in the Menzies era, The only thing you got right was the price of consumer goods.

    It was costly in the Menzies era to send your kids to primary school ,much less university. I could go on, but it would be lost on you. It is safe to presume your father is another Liberal with a convenient faulty memory.

    Yes we are more moral, that btw is not an opinion but a fact. Your mob, are so keen to see other people’s children die in wars, those wars not ours and as fake as a nine bob note.

    But to the topic, your mob would can social welfare if they thought they could survive the electoral backlash. Howard is on record as wanting to give the whole thing over to private charity. It is the Labor movement that is responsible for the poor and disadvantaged people living with a bit of dignity, in one of the richest countries in the world, that can easily afford it. It was a Labor P.M. that gave us the old age pension.

    Your mob talks about higher wages with draconian laws like work choices. Why is it that the Liberal governments have not once recommended a national pay rise?

    Taking a few dollars off the poor and letting the likes of Gina Rinehart amass a fortune of 17 billion dollars. This is not politics or ideology this is obscene madness.

    Carry on.

  38. “Yes we are more moral, that btw is not an opinion but a fact.”

    My opinion is that you are deluded.

    Your mob, are so keen to see other people’s children die in wars, those wars not ours and as fake as a nine bob note.”

    It is the ALP that got us involved in the Middle East and we have been there ever since.

    In the biggest mobilisation of Australian Forces since the Vietnam War, the Government committed Australian naval forces to the 1991 Gulf War in support of the United States led coalition against the regime of Saddam Hussein, following the invasion of oil-rich Kuwait by Iraq on 2 August 1990

    The reality is that we generally do what the British or Americans ask no matter who is in power.

    And most of our Middle East war deaths have come when Rudd/Gillard was in power.

  39. “My opinion is that you are deluded”

    You’ve got me confused with someone who gives a flying fuck about your opinion.

    The invasion of Kuwait was a just enterprise my friend the second attack “Weapons of mass destruction” was bollocks.

    I stand by what I said.

    True Gillard was responsible for keeping our troops in Afghanistan, this was/is still against the vast wishes of the rank and file of the Labor party. you’ll notice I had Vietnam as an example 580 +.dead for F.A. A conservative war.

    The topic here is social welfare, I stand by what I said. Your mob would see people living under bridges before paying them social welfare. In the Menzies years, working people lost their homes because of unemployment it is you who is deluded.

    Your mob wont rest until they see this whole planet fucked because of capitalism.

    Carry on.

  40. Neil, if your father did what you say, he was not on lanourere or factory wages. He would have had trouble finding a home to rent. Yes, many families were living on verandahs. So bad, that the government was forced to put huts in rellies back yards, Yes, and I believe the water front was still day hire labour.,

    Maybe you should question dads memory, if he was indeed a laborer or factory harness.

    I am sure a little googling will back what I have said.n

  41. Yes, and most kids in the workforce by 14. No education for the dirty unwashed lower income earners, Yes, and many women did work, Those left widowed or deserted, had no choice. Same went for those with drunken and dysfunctional husbands,’

    No choice at all., In factn, many were forced to give their kids up, Many ended up in care.

  42. Listening to the coin of Abbott this afternoon. I think he was saying it is up to business. You are all on your own,
    The only t half I we give, is to see you take on the unions, wind backs all the awards and wage agreements.

    Nothing else is available.

    If you do this, we will give you all the help and assistance you need.

    One could think, Abbott does not like workers.

  43. “Such hatred. Are you unwell???”

    I don’t hate anyone me old China. I feel sorry for conservatives, especially the ones that graft for a living. They are a little confused, they love revisionist history, and spruik more bullshit than an outback shearer. But no I don’t hate them.

    Of course some of them should be locked away in an asylum to protect us normal people. Or in the case of our P.M. deported back to the U.K.

    Some of members of our current government should have been tested to see if they are sane before being elected, for instance, Cori Banana’s, Poodle Pyne, Barnyard Joyce, Death stare Bishop, there quite a few more, but you’re getting my drift. By any yard stick they’re all barking bonkers.

    You know I reckon there should be along with the normal yearly Queens awards, they should have one for bullshit artist of the year. And the winner is!!!!! Tony Audi Murphy wanna be Abbott.

    As for me being unwell, well I do have a bad case of haemorrhoids, you get these by an over use of your arse hole, caused by conservatives giving me the shits.

    Carry on.

  44. Neil, you might not have noticed, that many who comment here, lived the Menzies years. Some even the Great Depression I suspect.

  45. Phil, do you realize, all you mention carry the weight in this government. Pyne will be happy, Gonski has been put back in his box today. So has McFarlane, I believe

  46. Abbott is telling business very clearly. He expects business to fight his battle for him. Yes, that fight, he believes he has with workers and unions.

    Yes, a clear message was sent today. You all toe the line or….

  47. It was not a golden age. It was a time of unnecessary struggle for most.

    I think you’re looking at those times through morose coloured glasses Fed-up. Compared to the Depression years it is generally regarded as a “golden age”.

    With full employment and high wages it would be surprising if it were anything but.

    I guess it all depends on what you choose to compare it with.

  48. “Yes, and most kids in the workforce by 14.”

    Fed up your comment about married women was so true. There was no police protection and restraining orders back then. Besides, most coppers of that era would think the wife deserved a thrashing off her husband. I do know that, my mother was one of them. My old man went stark raving bonkers from WW2 no excuse, just a point. Yep, the Menzies era, it is a wonder the working class weren’t living in caves.

  49. Question. Does Shepparton have what Newcastle, many decades ago, in it’s favour.

    I am sure they do not. Even if they do, it took up to a generation for Newcastle to recover.

  50. “Phil, do you realize, all you mention carry the weight in this government. Pyne will be happy, Gonski has been put back in his box today. So has McFarlane, I believe”

    Oh yes I know, that’s what makes it the embarrassment it is. Anyone listening to most of the people mentioned could only conclude they’re fruit cakes.

    I mean I take great delight in imagining Pyne in his school years. Bringing the teacher an apple. I bet the other kids tormented him something cruel. Wedgies wouldn’t be the half of it. He would have been the tell tale, the dobber, no doubt about that.

  51. Sorry, did not intend to compare the depression with the post war years. Must say, I cannot recall my parents talking that much about the depression. I suspect they did better than both. Dad, single and a loner, just put the car on drums, and lived on rabbits and boiled wheat for the duration. Was a Cockey, on some land that was little more that rocks. Did move to a better one, later.

    Mum, and her family have been always in small businesses, far off places.

    No, one must not compare. As for Menzies, I had not time for him then. No time now.

  52. “As for Menzies, I had not time for him then. No time now.

    Good. That can only mean he was a fine PM. Unemployment was at 2% under Menzies.

    Gillard by contrast was totally useless.

  53. Sorry Neal, I suffered unemployment under Menzies. Ended up going to Central Queensland for work.

    I think you will find, it was lower under Whitlam. Also, higher. That is the nature of employment. Also the same for inflation, which at times was also high. Yes, there were horror budgets back then.

  54. Governments reign in good times and bad. There are cycles. It was the Menzies government’s good fortune to be in office during the long boom following WW2, a time when throughout the western economies so-called Keynesian economics was the dominant paradigm. The maintenance of full employment was core policy.

    Since 1975 we have endured much higher levels of unemployment no matter who’s been in power. It’s much more instructive to look at how government’s of different colour deal with the consequences of the business cycle rather than to seek to blame for them for the cycle itself, something they cannot control (but can make worse…vide “surplus”).

    The change in policy emphasis from full employment to inflation targeting however is rooted in core neo-liberal belief and conservative dogma. Sadly, it’s hard these days to distinguish the Labor Party from the LNP. The only difference is the rhetoric.

    The appearance of Kevin Andrews on the scene however dramatically changes things. Like Cassius, such men are dangerous.

    With unemployment about to get into the politically dangerous area of 6% and higher it’s become urgent that the public’s attention be kept focused on the victims as a drain on the public purse, rather than fellow Australians who need some help.

    Given the success of this government’s “deficit scare campaign” at the last election, it would be pretty confident that an equally flawed “sustainability” argument can be manufactured to complement the less subtle “dole-bludger” bigotry that’s always there to be tapped in the times of need.

    The equity and fairness arguments that dominate comments here have no effect on hard-arsed conservatives. Indeed, they probably reinforce their self-centred value system.

    The “sustainability” argument is however total bullshit from a purely fiscal point of view and we really should learn how to prosecute it.

  55. Neil of Sydney @ January 30, 2014 @ 4:34 pm “My opinion is that you are deluded.”
    LOL As if your opinion, that of a mindless Troll that parrots IPA sanction lunacy, is worth anything! Your ego is overinflated somewhat. Suck it in and don’t expose your prolapse to us all. It is truly disgusting to all humane people. You still on your return add NIL in the way of value to the debate.

  56. You don’t know how that makes me smile, that I am a person that is diametrically opposite to the likes of you. At least I can be proud that I will not willingly impose hardship upon others, for my own selfish gain, as you promote endlessly with your diatribe.
    You are a Viral component that is flourishing in the culture of our Society, that will consume it’s host in it’s mindless race to create more of it’s own, in order to profit in the consummation of everything to your own outcomes, all along with scant regard for the end game.
    Neil, you are a Fool. I hope you can grasp that, as I just made it as simple as I can for you to understand. Able to digest something more complex, you are an inhumane Fool.

  57. At least I can be proud that I will not willingly impose hardship upon others, for my own selfish gain

    But that is exactly what you have done because of your vote in 2007.

    Under Howard we took our refugees from UNHCR camps.

    Under Rudd/Gillard refugees from Africa now somehow have to make a trip to Indonesia and then some how find a smuggler and then somehow find $$10,000 in hard currency to make it to Australia.

    You have destroyed the lives of thousands of people because of your vote in 2007.

  58. Good.

    My conscience is clear.

    Sadly you do not have one.

    You have destroyed the lives of thousands of people because of your vote in 2007 and you do not care.

  59. Denial is normal in a mind such as yours. Otherwise, how could you live with yourself and even consider you are humane. Isn’t the mind wonderful how one can justify the unjustifiable to oneself.
    Guess what, it is call delusion.
    Step out of the Neo-Con Pavlovian programming we are all exposed to and horrify yourself with a slice of histories lessons, as this has all been done to death countless times. Lots of us have. It’s not nice, but it is so liberating to think for oneself and not be prisoner to what someone else demands you to think and say, because it is profitable for them.

  60. BTW, you still haven’t convince me you correct (mainly due to the lack of empirical evidence and case study) and as such, I really don’t believe your the best judge of your own state of mind (no one ever is the best judge of themselves). A clear conscious can be just because you have chosen self-delusion. Dwell on that and know emphatically, that I still pity you.

  61. Mate it would really help if you spoke English.

    Remember the Sudanese refugees that were in the news when Howard/Costello were in power?? WE took then from UNHCR camps.

    Under the Rudd/Gillard system African refugees now have to somehow travel to Indonesia and then somehow find a smuggler and then somehow find $$10,000.

    I think you people are racist. You do not like African refugees.

  62. That is twisted and torturing an argument back up it’s ass in order to provide an outcome to a desired goal, that you desire to attest you disposition is justifiable. It is not. Try again, as your argument is defying sane logistical structure and is predetermining suffering on those most vulnerable out of nothing more than pure evil intent. Really shows an insight into how your mind reasons though.
    I can attest, that at least the sort of people you admire, will happily inflict your fore said scenario for the purpose of profit, but here you’re trying to convince me that Rudd/Gillard did it to mince babies up for breakfast for nasty people to eat and that’s it? You are a twisted puppy and I still pity you.
    BTW, no, I don’t condone what Rudd/Gillard did on the Refugee issue, but then, they didn’t help create the situations, nor help in assisting the Military Industrial Complex in formulation and promoting War in order to sell Arms for profit. Howard did continually, though I know you will deny it (delusion again?). Your sort always do, predictably and with certainty.
    Also, nice predictable bit of projection in your last sentence. Awesome! LOL *sigh*

  63. Tech…

    I wish I could harness your passion and redirect it against the real problem.

    It’s not Neil.

    : (

  64. Jack, Niel is just a symptom of the illness, but not the cause. People like him though assist in the progression of the illness to the point of killing the very host that provides the environment they require to survive and prosper.
    A virus does precisely that, but lacks the intelligence to know what it is doing. Neil actually can read and write, but still promotes the same behavior of a virus to us all, so obviously he has some intelligence. But it certainly shows that one of the two, which utilises the intelligence it does have to the better. But it isn’t Neil.

  65. Neil, I see your back to your ’round and round’ again 😛
    So if you will but indulge…. Could you tell all here Why you think tony is more betterer 😆 😆
    …. over to ewe Neil, baa !!! 😀

  66. Neil of Sydney @ January 30, 2014 @ 4:34 pm “My opinion is that you are deluded.”
    ROFL! LOL *snicker*
    Who is calling the Kettle Black? LOL
    Oh Neil, you are an entertaining Fool. Giggles for all the Family, and available for just a poke of logical reasoning! Such value against the Entertainment Industry where we can try to discuss logically with the Illogical instead of mindlessly, Zombie like, having it fed into us though our eyes and ears.
    You may be a pointless exercise really, but it really does surprise our minds as to the plumbing that is in yours and very entertaining in trying to work out how it could ever be called reasoning, rather than programming.

  67. Seems all Turnbull needs is a vacuum cleaner and hose, to get the NBNCo back on track.

    ……XCLUSIVE: A simple hose and the equivalent of a vacuum cleaner may save the National Broadband Network’s fibre-to-the-premise rollout model.

    A simple hose and the equivalent of a vacuum cleaner could save the NBN fibre-to-the-premise model. Image courtesy of the Communication Workers Union.

    If implemented nationally, it has the potential to deliver fibre to the home at half the cost of Labor’s original costing of $37.4 billion and in just five years, thereby giving fibre a serious advantage on the $41 billion multi-technology rollout model proposed in the NBN strategic review.

    The pipe-cleaning technology, originally used in the sewerage and water industries, is proving miracles on the NBN rollout, enabling NBN Co to pass about 2500 premises in six to eight weeks as opposed to six months.
    Introduced by a West Australian contractor, the technology was trialled and used on the NBN rollout since about October last year….

    Is it also beyond the realms of possibility, that such a procedure could also suck out the dangerous asbestos that is present in many, no one knows, how many pits

  68. There is so much to talk about, to debate, to worry about the Neal’s of this world. No matter what, they will keep going around in circles. Neal has picked up where he left off months ago,

    We need to focus on what happens today. With this government, it is hard top keep up.

    Each day there is a new disaster.

    Does that general really believe hi is directing a war. If so, a war with whom?

  69. I believe those boats we are hearing so much about, are no more than antiquated small wooden fishing boats.

    ould the so called smugglers be no more than family and friends that have gone before.

    I easy this, as I have seen no evidence of big and powerful smuggling gangs being arrested.

    The evidence that does seem to be available, is that the scheme of Gillard’s, that Rudd put in place, is when the boats stopped coming.

    Yes the PNG and arrangements with Indonesia to change their visa procedure, especially for those coming from Iran.

    Rudd began sending the Sri :Lankans back.

  70. What is the role of our armed forces under the Constitution, Should they be involved in civil matters, in a military setting.

  71. Fed Up, Governments like the current Federal Ship of Fools, can only sail so long, before everything cycles back on them and exposure of the misappropriation of the resources of the Nation into hands, that are not those of the Constituents, normally fails to excite the re-installation of them to the Seat of Power.
    As War is very profitable to the likes of the USSA (United Secret States of America) and UK, one can easily know that they will be advising that nothing gets the people behind your Government, than when you are at War! Of course, they will supply the Arms and assistance at a price as War is good and profitable.
    Obvious choice for this will be Indonesia. Don’t fall for their lies they will construct to make it appear justifiable.
    Remember, people such as this don’t have empathy, they replaced that emotion with Greed.

  72. A question that none are asking. Who are these terrible people smugglers, that this country has called war on. Yes, we have as Morrison keeps telling us, a military action in process.

    We have heard so much about them over the last decade or so, but little that is concrete. Who are they. What are their names. Where do they reside. Why do the refugees pout so much trust in them.

    All we have in our prisons. are adolescent and poor fishermen that steered the boats here. who hired and paid these men?

  73. I have asked a plenty for who we are militarily taking action against, but no one ever answers with anything believable.
    You always get a scary Bogeyman propped up in front of you, with the Australian KKK screaming Baddy! Baddy!
    But then, I didn’t expect much of anything from the Fascists anyway. Just expected how much they would rape, pillage and plunder me, and take us on a miserable ride to our deserved “Pot of Gold” which lies on the end of “their” rainbow, but is otherwise known as the Garbage Dump, to be absolutely truthful about it.

  74. The evidence that does seem to be available, is that the scheme of Gillard’s, that Rudd put in place, is when the boats stopped coming. ”

    Ah no. It was Howard who stopped the boats after much trial and error.

    It was Rudd/Gillard and the people who voted for them in 2007 that restarted this disaster. It is now costing us $1B/year more than when Howard was in power.

    But Labor does have the record. They locked up record numbers of people. Building detention centers here there and everywhere.

    Let us hope Scott Morrison starts taking people from UNHCR camps once this disaster is cleaned up instead of selling our humanitarian places to the highest bidder which of course is the ALP way.

  75. “We have heard so much about them over the last decade or so, but little that is concrete. Who are they. What are their names. Where do they reside. Why do the refugees pout so much trust in them.”

    They are only known to the Indonesian authorities who are getting kick backs from the smugglers. Who have been covering for these smugglers for years. An enterprise like this doesn’t flourish with out protection. Anyone who has visited Indonesia, knows corruption is rife. The authorities know their country is only a staging ground for the refugees on their way to Australia. Why not profit from it.

    They pay their police and other small public service employees peanuts, it is only obvious they will be tempted by easy money.

    Lets face it, most of our Federal police couldn’t track an elephant in the snow, apart from the odd drug bust, what do they do? If they can’t infiltrate these gangs of human cargo smugglers, with the intelligence gathering tools at their disposal, they aren’t worth the money we are paying them.

  76. Neil of Sydney @ January 31, 2014 @ 5:34 pm
    Neil! You obviously didn’t listen to your Mother when she, obviously, failed to instill into you, that it is not polite to fabricate “Porkies”, or in proper English, that is simple for you to comprehend, lies.
    But as a source of amusement, your post certainly had me laughing, at it, at you for being stupid enough to write it publicly and obviously believing it. You do believe what you wrote, don’t you?

  77. I am confused. Is Sovereign Borders military operation or not. If not, how does one have a military led operation?

  78. The question I am really asking, do many really exist, Do those who go head, make arrangements for those that come after. How hard could it be, for anyone to find a boat?

    We only have to look at the sudden increase in women and kids getting on those boats, that led to the deaths of hundreds, after Howard bought in the TPV. Would it be beyond the realms of possibility, that the menfolk already here, arranged those boats. Why does it have to be organized by what they are labeling “people smugglers”

    Some of the facts we do know, seem to indicate this could be the case, in some of the boats that come.

    One thing for sure, history over a long time, will show, that those who want to get here, will only be blocked for a short period of time. They will find new ways to come.

  79. Neil, why rehash ancient history. It matters not, if what you say is true. Evidence points elsewhere, but that is OK.

    Neil, all that counts, is what is happening today.

  80. NoS, Howard has sucked you and a lot of Aussies in with his BS rhetoric, he has only succeeded in dividing his own people.
    “….Prior to the new policy, Australia had a separate offshore humanitarian program, which saw us bring refugees from overseas, mainly from camps across Asia and in Africa, to settle in Australia. This is not one of our obligations under the Refugee Conventions. Instead, it’s seen as something ‘generous’ we do and our program has traditionally been viewed favourably by world standards.

    We also had an onshore program, which detailed how we respond to asylum seekers who arrive on our shore and ask for our protection.

    What John Howard did in 1996 was to link the numbers of those two programs. And so the concept of the queue jumper was born. People were lead to believe that for every person that came by boat, one person had to be taken off the humanitarian program list.

    “We are the only developed western democracy that has links to those two programs, and that program gave rise to the whole rhetoric of the queue, and that rhetoric has been poisonous in this country….”

  81. I cannot believe you people. We are spending $1B/year more than we did under Howard because we have to house and feed these boat people. And the system is not as fair.

    Say what you want but a lot of people know how to milk the system.

    Howards system was the better system. We stop the boats, have a quota system and take our refugees from UNHCR camps. The only thing wrong is that we should take more refugees. Say 40,000 and fewer skilled immigrants.

    End of story.

  82. The Lie-berals are pushing us deeper and deeper into debt… and it’s our children who will pay.

    Tweet, 23 January 2014

    Stephen Koukoulas @TheKouk

    The govt just borrowed a further $800m, over 13 yrs (our kids will be paying it back!). Gross debt issued since 9 Sep is now $42.25 billion

  83. Neal, for once you got the last sentence correct. It is end of story, as it was far back in the past. Three governments ago.

    Now time to look at what is happening today,.,

    That we can influence,

  84. The trouble is the money being borrowed today, is not being used for investment in physical and human infrastructure for the future.

    In fact, I have little idea of what it is being used for.

    Maybe something has to replace such things as the CEFC and the MRRT, which generated revenue.

    Maye the tax rebates that about has returned to upper income earners has to be replaced. Maybe it could be that PPL that is coming.

    Maybe it is opening the loop [hole once again, that allows some to buy cars under FBT.

    Yes, the debt is growing.

    Yes rebates and middle/upper class welfare has to be paid for.

    Still rather have the money spent on infrastructure for the future, that would benefit the kids of the future.

    Destroying unions and ripping down wage and conditions, of workers will not deliver what Mr. Abbot

    No, I do not hate or love Abbott. I hate what he is going to this country, because of his arrogant stupidity. A man that listens to no one, but seems to live by what his gut tells him.

  85. The Lie-berals are pushing us deeper and deeper into debt… and it’s our children who will pay.

    Jesus Christ ! When does the stupidity end. I can’t believe I’m seeing this on a left-wing blog. This is neo-liberal bullshit that could’ve come from a Hockey press release.

    Sorry cuppa. I usually enjoy your contributions.

    Koukoulas used to work for Julia Gillard. I think I’m beginning to understand why the Labor Party got its economics so wrong. Was Koukoulas a LNP plant ?

    Saying “our kids will have to pay it back” is like insisting the world is flat.

    Our kids will never have to “pay this back” ! Deficits never get “paid back” !

    Debt is not debt

    Will we really pay higher taxes?

    Will we really pay higher interest rates?

  86. MJ, I do not believe our kids pay back anything, Just tongue in cheek. Still rather see the money spent on investments for the future, not handouts to the wealthy. One has to use Abbott’s and Co language.

  87. Well, it looks like the decision on the Barrier Reef has taken on a life of it’s own.

    Where will one begin with that March next month.

  88. The trouble is the money being borrowed today, is not being used for investment in physical and human infrastructure for the future.

    The government normally issues debt to mop up excess reserves that pile up in the reserves accounts of the commercial banks that result from deficit spending, deficit spending that’s probably composed of increasing dole payments.

    Falling tax receipts exacerbate the “problem”.

    You should be relieved that so far this government seems to be holding off on its threats to rein in the deficit. The deficit is about all that’s keeping our head above water. Let’s see what Hockey does in May.

    What looks like debt is actually just a monetary operation. If it was Labor in government it would be front page in the MSM. But that’s a given.

    As I keep saying, the Left has got to get it’s head around this stuff to have any chance of countering the wingnuts deficit hysteria.

    If the Left can’t be bothered then don’t expect the 5 or 10% of swinging voters to get it and come to our rescue either.

  89. One has to use Abbott’s and Co language.

    I think that’s the problem, FU.

    And it’s not just the language, it’s also the policies.

  90. :”You should be relieved that so far this government seems to be holding off on its threats to rein in the deficit. ”

    I do really hope that you are correct. My gut tells me, they will try to rein in the deficit. I believe the sacking in the PS is much greater than we are being led to believe. One cannot ignore all the government bodies. Advisory board and NGO they have disbanded. That adds up to a lot of people.

    I believe they will try to rein in the deficit, simply because they have pushed themselves into a corner..

    This is a PM that listens to, or takes advice from no one. In fact, I believe we now have a PS that will not offer any, unless directly asked. Why should they.

  91. MJ, agree, but suspect it will get you or me anywhere. I am sure that Koukoulas agree when it comes to debt.

    I also like to reply, what is debt, what is investment.

    The conversation has to be moved on some how. Hard when the debate has been reduced to one word. That is “debt” Maybe the only hope is to change the concept of debt in many peoples’ minds, Maybe there is a chance, that debt can be seen as good as well as bad.

    The silly thing is, that most people do not see personal debt as bad anymore. Not like when we were kids, when the working class feared debt over everything,

    I did not have this problem. Mum was always in business, Dad a cocky farmer. Neither existed without debt.

  92. And as you have said Fu….nothing..but nothing moves ahead without debt…. the ‘thing’ that I can see is What does that “debt” produce. If you have a mortgage, the ‘debt’ produces a place to live and hopefully an increasing asset… which, in a way, = rent that didn’t go nowhere.. plus the offset an of increasing equity on that ‘debt’ ( kinda 😕 ) and without the benefit of a printing press that prints ‘legal’ money like govt. has, mm!!
    If the ‘debt’ is used to ‘just’ produce ‘wealth’ and ‘not’ infrastructure that adds to the production of ‘wealth’ down the track… then down the track one is paddling up the creek (thanx little johnny)…. unless your one of the one%, all wealth, not interested in any but their own “infrastructure”. 🙄
    ….. debt produces…. surpluses are just money in the bank sitting idle and not doing anyone any good except those with an negative agenda ( Tones.. anyone)….. Governments are not businesses… they do not need to and never should be run like businesses….Govt. has a Mint…. business don’t, ay….. it seems to me it all comes down to how one spends the ‘debt’, not the debt per se ( well I think that’s kinda how it goes… minus the smarts 😀 ) 😳 over to you MJ 😳 and *clink*

  93. You’re right about the word “debt” FU.

    If only the public would understand that government debt was actually the source of their savings, and that it’s not really a “debt” in same way that a household or business would be familiar with.

    Back in the days of the gold standard, government debt did have to paid back out of taxes but those days are long gone. Nowadays we allow the currency to float and make the necessary adjustments.

    We should’ve realised we’ve been living under a different monetary system for 30 years but maintaining the debt myth is useful politically. I’m sure the debt scare was the main reason Labor lost the last election. And it’ll happen again if they continue to listen to people like Koukoulas. I’m not so sure he understands this at all. His tweet states his beliefs pretty clearly.

  94. When it comes to Abbott’s royal commission into unions, what is he really about.

    ………..Tony Abbott and his new Coalition government have long planned a Royal Commission into the union movement.

    This, of course, was not a policy that the Coalition took to the 2013 election.

    Such a naked attack would have ‘scared the horses’, exposing what the Coalition has been desperate to hide—its plan to reinstate WorkChoices.

    Instead, the LNP took to the election plans for a single judicial inquiry into allegations, now decades-old, about a ‘slush’ fund once run by officials from the Victorian branch of the Australian Workers Union. The Murdoch press hounded Prime Minister Gillard about her involvement long after the public lost interest in this issue and even after nothing substantive eventuated. Of course, this judicial inquiry was always intended as a stalking horse for a later and much wider inquiry……………..

    ………………………Innocent people had their reputations smeared and lives shattered. Unionists who had dedicated their lives to standing up for others were subject to intensive investigation and periods of cross-examination in the witness-box, and they had their faces splashed on the front pages of newspapers and on TV news.

    Despite the Cole Commission’s failure to find corruption, the Howard government used the Commission to set up a special police force for the building industry, which the Abbott government is now bringing back—the ABCC. With little to do, the ABCC became little more than a menace to building workers, spending their time harassing rank and file union members. Construction bosses were delighted.

    Why is the Coalition such an eager instigator of royal commission witch hunts?

    Such commissions represent a ‘win-win’ for conservative governments keen to attack unions. There does not need to be any wrong-doing for the labour movement to be forced to divert time, money and organisational resources into defending their unions, their volunteer delegates and their leaders. And such a distraction couldn’t come at a better time, with the Coalition planning to impose an aggressive austerity program on working people, to dismantle Medicare, and to resume their attack on workers’ rights.

    A wide and extensive inquiry might deliver additional benefits if it was to somehow cast doubts on the federal Labor opposition through its union links.

    But here is the irony.

    My guess is that corrupt practices occur in Australian unions on a lesser scale than those that take place across other institutions in Australia, such as sporting clubs, charities, governments, and political parties. Serious corruption tends to follow the circuits of money and power. The union movement does not represent the rich and powerful, and we are not the rich and powerful. What goes on behind those closed doors is something about which most Australians know little–but we can be assured that a Coalition Government would never subject these elite interests to the investigative intrusions of a Royal Commission.

    But, of course, Abbott’s Royal Commission is not about corruption. It is purely political strategy.

    The Coalition wants to nobble the union movement, delegitimising it in the eyes of the Australian public. Despite the continuing efforts of the right-wing media and conservative governments, Australians continue to support and see the need for unions. Australians also believe we are better off as a country for their presence and activity. This ongoing public respect is an endless irritation to CEOs and the Coalition, who want an American-style labour market with little protection for workers, and who gave Australia a taste of such reforms with WorkChoices. An active and popular union movement continues to be the biggest obstacle to a complete return to WorkChoices.

    More than a ploy to distract unions, Abbott’s Royal Commission is designed to break the public’s trust in unions. And, on his side in this crusade will be the union-hating Murdoch press. This year will have its fair share of screaming anti-union headlines. Every little bit of mud, true o………………

  95. I assume, after the actions of this government this week, we will see in the coming budget, all rebates and assistance to industry repealed.

    No tax rebates. Nothing.

  96. I don’t know what your point is Don but over at The Guardian there’s a whole bunch of grateful folk detailing how welfare rescued them in straitened circumstances, enabling them to go on to uni and successful careers with spin-offs that benefit us all.

  97. >i>surpluses are just money in the bank sitting idle and not doing anyone any good except those with an negative agenda ( Tones.. anyone)…

    Sorry to nit-pick Lovo, but it’s a really important point: “surpluses” are not money in the bank as we are led to believe.

    The expression “surplus” is almost Orwellian because it’s actually a destruction of private sector wealth. The excess of tax over spending that generates the so-called surplus cannot physically exist because a government can’t save in its own currency.

    The only evidence of a surplus is the hole it leaves in private sector savings or vacant lots where there might have been a school or hospital.

    If the surplus is put into a Future Fund then its actually spent and no longer a surplus. Whether putting that money into tobacco and uranium shares and various financial products is a better investment than schools and hospitals is a political question.

    But the point I’m making is that unless we, the progressive side of politics, make the effort to understand this and let the bastards know that we do understand, they will continue to exploit our ignorance and nothing will change.

  98. The Don if you are concerned about the welfare others receive how about you give up the current welfare you get and payback all the past welfare you received?

    Inane answer coming.

  99. Yes, Don, sadly I have been. Also, most of my life I have worked damn hard, doing jobs that the likes of you would not know existed.

    Yes, sadly a made a very big decision in my life. I trusted a man, and married him. Yes, the and had four beautiful kids. Bought them up in what one could only describe as hell for thirteen years.

    Yes, I learnt what it was like to live on the dole. Was relieved, when the government gave up and put him on a disability pension,. Funny, during most of the time, I did work. Never earned enough to get ahead.

    After a disaster, I moved on, with my kids by myself Yes, made at times rely on the single mother pemsion. Then added HECS. Gee, those years at university were wonderful.

    Got an Associate Diploma and degree.

    Then, until I retired, sadly earlier than I had planned, earned good money, paying back in tax more than I ever received in welfare. I believe I contributed to the community.

    Yes, I do receive the pension, as most women in my position do. I do own my home and am reasonably independent.

    Now Don, maybe you can tell me, what you mean by your question.

    Does my life, and reliance on welfare in time of crisis make me a lesser person, one not entitle to have an opinion.

    From where I sit, I see the opposite neinhg true.

    My life, is not unusual. One leads life with the cards dealt.

    By the way, even if it is popular for many to say today, I did spend many hours over the school life of my kids, involved on a daily basis in their education. Yes, did work with the teachers to ensure the best education I could for them. Funny, I see my kids, regularly being involved in the edc=cuactio n of their kids. Yes, state schools.

    Don, I see my life experiences, as giving me the right to speak. It is real to me, not theory or ideology. I have been on both sides of the welfare fence.

    Now for my beliefs. I do not believe in welfare or charity. In a civil society, there should be a need for either., There are better ways to distribute the wealth.

    What experience do you have to contribute? What makes you the great expert?

    Abbott now on ABC 24 launching the Coalition in Griffiths.

  100. Michael, do not worry. I am happy to answer his question, as stupid as it is.

    I see money spent by government, not waste or debt, but investment in the future of this country.

    Yes, when one spends on Education, I believe it comes back at least eight times. Money spent keeping a family afloat, always delivers bonuses.

    Same goes for health and housing.

    Capital needs, demands a well educated, healthy and skilled workforce. Capital does not seem in a hurry, to provide for themselves. That seems to be left to governments.

    This launch is sickening.

  101. One can see why we have had the attack on unions from all sides. It was in the lead up today.

    By the way, I noticed that there are many stories, alleging corruption in the building industry, not the unions but from contractors and developers.

  102. Well, I must say I am surprised, Griffiths is getting a saint. a saint that has performed miracles, it the Coalition wins. Must say they will be lucky.

    Wonder if Abbott will take him out into the streets.

  103. I do not believe I have ever met anyone, that has not collected some type of welfare from the government, in their lifetime.

  104. What Don is really talking about, is the worthy and unworthy poor. He is worthy of what he has received over his lifetime.

  105. The Lie-berals are pushing us deeper and deeper into debt… and it’s our children who will pay. ”


    I cannot believe you said that. Actually i can because you are as corrupt as Craig Thomson.

    Back in 2007 the Federal govt debt was 0.0000%. In fact it was less than zero. We actually had money in the bank.

    To blame our debt on Hockey shows how corrupt and dishonest Labor supporters are.

  106. Neil, why back in the past. Is there not enough happening today, to keep one occupied.

    They say when one is in the early stages of Alzheimer’s, it is the short term memory that goes first.

    That one loses the ability to lay down memories. Could this be your problem.

    Must be some reason, why you remain in the past. Not only remaning I but keep repeating everything from that time.

    Once again, concentrate, you might be able to keep this memory.

    It is now Abbott that is the PM.

    Howard, Rudd and Guallard belong to the past. Not many are interested in what they did.

    Neil, have you got t. Say over and over, so you remember. Abbott is PM. Abbott is PM.

  107. Yes, the deficit is growing under this government,. That cannot be denied. Not sure that means much, except for the fact, they are trying to blame Labor, the previous governments for their actions.

    Must say, which surprises me, Glasson comes over harsh and rough sounding at his launch. I do not know why, but I always imagined him to be a quiet spoken man.

  108. “Neil, why back in the past. Is there not enough happening today, to keep one occupied.”

    Because it was the past six years that caused a lot of our problems.

    Cuppa blames Hockey who have been in power for 4 months. I really do not understand ALP supporters.

    Actually i do. ALP supporters are totally corrupt and immoral human beings who will never admit that most of their policies do nothing but destroy the lives of people.

  109. Actually i do. ALP supporters are totally corrupt and immoral human beings who will never admit that most of their policies do nothing but destroy the lives of people.

    And here’s you calling ME deluded and a Hater.!!!!

    Do you have two dicks per chance? No one could be as stupid as you playing with one.

    So all the millions of Australians that got the pension from a Labor party P.M. have had their lives destroyed? I think it is you that is unwell. When you get a minute from the time you put in to playing with yourself, go and get an education.

    But a tip for you, don’t ask your dad, he’s been lying to you all along.

  110. Phil

    My conscience is clear.

    By the way Cuppa says Hockey is responsible for our Federal govt debt. Can you tell me why a govt that has been in power for 4 months is responsible for the disaster of the last 6 years??

  111. Neil, there was a line drawn under any deficit created under Labor.,

    What Hockey is responsible for, it the considerable increase since that time. Yes, he is responsible. Once again we are talking about the now and here, not the past.

    I do not know why I bother with you, as you will come back, once again repeating all that you have said in the past.

    You will not take in one word we say. You will continue to call us liars and corrupt.

  112. We already have open dissension within the Abbott government. Wonder how this story would run, if Gllard was still PM.

    …TONY Abbott loves to be compared with John Howard. Comparisons with another former Liberal prime minister, however, cause him to bristle.

    He knows there has been concern among Liberal “dries”, hard line economic rationalists, that he could turn out to be like Malcolm Fraser – in their eyes, a prime minister who wasted reform opportunities and shied away from tough economic decisions to avoid unpopularity.

    But people close to Abbott believe Cabinet’s decision to reject a $25 million industry assistance request by food processor SPC Ardmona will put paid to such talk. Never again, they say, should anyone suggest that Abbott is the new Fraser.

    In terms of demonstrating a determination to wind back corporate welfare, the SPC Ardmona announcement was more significant than the Government’s refusal to consider further financial assistance for General Motors Holden.

    General Motors HQ in Detroit had already made the decision to end car making in Australia. The fate of Australia’s last fresh fruit cannery might well have been settled by Thursday’s Cabinet meeting.

    Cabinet was split on the issue. A firm stand by the Prime Minister was crucial to the outcome.

    If, as seems likely, SPC’s operation in Shepparton goes to the wall, there will be thousands of job losses and plenty of hardluck stories from Victoria’s Goulburn Valley and beyond.

    In such a situation, Fraser would certainly have come up with the money. Ironically, ministers from the Howard era say Abbott’s mentor and hero would have funded the bailout too.

    But Abbott’s role, colleagues say, shows he has fully embraced Treasurer Joe Hockey’s line that Australia can no longer live beyond its means and that this applies to government, business and punters alike.

    It is how he wants his gover.

  113. “Phil

    My conscience is clear.”

    Funny that, that’s what some of the Nazi high rollers said before they dropped them through the trap door with a rope round their scaly necks.

    Other notable statements were. ” I was only following orders” The best though was.

    ” I didn’t know what was going on” A bit like you Neil.

  114. What Hockey is responsible for, it the considerable increase since that time. Yes, he is responsible”

    No you are responsible because you voted for Rudd in 2007.

    Labor does not believe debt is a problem, we are sovereign in our own currency, we can print money so lets go out and spend.

    It always happens under Labor.

    “You will continue to call us liars and corrupt


    Funny that, that’s what some of the Nazi high rollers said before they dropped them through the trap door with a rope round their scaly necks.

    Didn’t take long before Hitler was mentioned.

    Like I said my conscience is clear. Too bad you don;t have one.

  115. Neil, should we be worried?

    ……..It is truly frightening to see how quickly the Abbott government’s refusal to pay SPC Ardmona a ‘structural adjustment’ subsidy has been dismissed by commentators as a case of ‘corporate welfare vs open markets’.

    Even the barest scratch of the surface reveals layers of complexity in this issue, and with fuller information, it begins to look like a case of breath-taking incompetence on the part of the Abbott cabinet – a triumph of ideology over compelling pragmatic arguments.

    Where to begin?

    The 700 to 800 permanent jobs on the line are the tip of the iceberg of a large supply chain. Liberal backbencher, and member representing the affected electorate of Murray, Sharman Stone, says there are a “conservative” 5,000 additional jobs on the line in cool stores, trucking, packaging, orchards, pickers, pruners and packers.

    Is that, in itself, a reason to give SPCA’s parent Coca-Cola Amatil a $25 million free kick? In theory no, but in practice the welfare, retraining and lost tax revenue of those workers quickly makes it a cost to the federal budget bottom line, not a saving.

    Around 6,000 workers previou…………..

  116. “I wonder where Neil had been for the last six months or so.”

    Did you miss me??

    This place seems to be a site where strange people agree with each other.

    Neil, should we be worried?

    Actually i never thought it would happen but i agree with ALP supporters. If it was me i would give SPC the $25M. Even it is a waste politicians waste more than that on toilet paper and plane trips.

    The govt would get back more than that in taxes if the SPC workers are employed rather than losing their jobs.

    I think it is a no brainer. SPC should be helped. And it is a different situation to Holden workers.

    My only proviso is if SPC are paying their workers 100K/year for canning fruit. That is way above award wages. then i would not agree.

  117. No miss you we did not.

    Neil, that is Abbott’s lie. They are far from high paid. Seen somewhere today, about $50ooo per annum.

    Remember the mother company, Coco Cola is rich, but will want the best return on their money.

    If they can get better elsewhere, they will go.

    That is what this is about. Either way, they are winners. If they go, we are losers.

    For the same amount that Abbott is spending ion the inquiry into Pink Batts can save these jobs.

    No return from the money wasted on PB. Yes, big return keeping SPC in operation.

    In fact, if SPC goes, the government will be spending the money, not on saving jobs, but on New Start and reduced taxes. Does not make sense.

    That is what one of their own lot has come out and said. Yes, a lady who is a doctor of economics.

  118. Labor debt of approx. $300 bill. to stimulate the economy during the GFC and created much needed infrastructure, took 6yrs to accumulate…. Hockey adds $200 bill. in 6 months after 😥 crying for years about an ‘budget emergency’
    …… by the by and by NoS, you haven’t seen it anywhere have you ???
    It would seem your lot keep lose’n stuff, Hockey lost his ‘budget emergency’… O’Farrell lost a Billion-ish then found it again 🙄 .. and now we have the LNP lose’n cred, both here at home and overseas….. and now the LNP wankers have lost our only fruit cannery also ( and don’t even start me on the GBR and CSIRO and etc+’s)…. the total squeezer we have as p.m. would rather spend larger amounts of money on useless inquires and royal commissions than on Australian workers jobs(and food)…. and all in the name of an well known fucked up failure of an ideology… but thats the R/wing for ya, not smart enough to know how dumb they truly are…. 😈

  119. LOVO, waste of time. He has learnt nothing while away.

    Still interesting that he does not tell us what he was up to. One will have to use our own imaginations. One place does come to mind.

  120. “and now the LNP wankers have lost our only fruit cannery also

    Listen mate back in the 1970’s we used to make everything and now most of our manufacturing is gone.

    Blaming the Coalition is what mainly happened from 1983-1996 shows you are just a partisan deadbeat.

  121. Back in 2007 the Federal govt debt was 0.0000%. In fact it was less than zero. We actually had money in the bank.

    That’s actually a physical impossibility. The government cannot save in the currency that it creates. It’s not logical.

    There was a big hole however in the private sector’s savings account, about the same size as the surplus, a hole households are still desperately trying to fill while they’ve still got a job.

  122. I seem to remember, that Howard left record private debt behind. I wonder how that occurred?

    I have to thank you Neil, replying to you, allows us to remind us how bad Howard’s days were. Yes a bigger spending and higher taxing government. That is spite o

    The evidence is easy to find, and there for all to see.

    Maybe Neil can remind us, where this has been all said before.

    After all, back then he also called us corrupt and liars.

    As I said we have been here many times, with Neil.

  123. Interesting interview on ABC News Breakfast this morning MJ.

    An economists stated that because at the moment most of the indicators are benign, interest rates will stay on hold. The one factor the RBA and everyone else is keeping a close watch on is unemployment.

    If unemployment goes down then interest rates are more than likely to rise, but if they go up they will remain steady or even go down a little. So as the Liberals in the past went on so much about interest rates the last thing this government wants is for unemployment to improve with them going up. If they could keep unemployment around 6% it would suit them to a tee, but it would also suit Abbott’s masters, big business and their lobby groups like the IPA and BCA, as they could use that to demand lower wages and the removal of conditions, in other words WorkChoices.

    No wonder that instead of trying to create two million jobs in a decade, a promise already broken according to Fact Check, Abbott is doing everything to drive up unemployment. Interest rates going up would be his political death knell.

    By the way the benign economic factors are mostly because of the good work of the previous Labor government.

  124. I seem to remember, that Howard left record private debt behind. I wonder how that occurred?

    The facts and figures from any countries economy can be spun and twisted until the cows come home. We can either have with a Labor government, a bit of inflation investing in a countries infrastructure, or with the Liberals stagnation and putting the surplus by way of tax fiddles in the hands of Gina Rinehart.

    Of course in Neil’s world, he believes in the trickle down economic formula, 99% for the investors 1% for the others, those others being us. Of course approx. half of the Labor party follow Neil’s formula, and there in lies the problem for us.

    Our mob has about half that are in the hands of business and want to see us kept in our place. The mob that used to support them, now support the Greens. The other half want fair pay, good medical, social welfare, etc. etc. etc. Where as, Neils mob are all in the hands of business, and would see us all living in caves. Isn’t that right Neil.

  125. Phil you are giving Neil credit for having an understanding of economics has does not have.

    What I do not understand why he takes personal affront of any criticism of Howard, and now Hockey. Cannot recall him ever defending Abbott.

    I suspect he does not know what one is talking about me, when one mentions the trickle down effect. At least we no longer hear about the invisible hand, but it can only be time before we do.

    Did anyone get the feeling that the launch today, was a little funny. All that seem to be on board was a Bishop and Brandis, along with Abbott. Glasson himself comes across as a little abrupt and a c

    Yes, history might show that to be the case, except this time, there has never been any love or trust in this PM.

    Labor still has to hold their attack for another few weeks. Abbott has to be allowed to get all his susrprises out, with no opposition. Time to attack could be, when that budget comes down. The public needs time, to take in with no detraction what Abbott is doing.

    No, I am not suggesting a rerun of Beasley. It is different this time. The government and it’s leaders are not nice or popular. Will never be popular, even on their side of the fence.

    I do not believe that Shorten, or those behind them are nice guys, as Beasley was.

    We know the present Labor mob is capable of attacking. It must be killing some of them to have to sit on their hands. Senator Carr seems to enjoy it a little with a harsh attack on the Morrison. The fire is still there.

    The March in March, is just the beginning. This will insure, that we leave Labor nowhere to back off too.

    One thing for sure, it is going to be a long long time before we see those 2 million jobs.

  126. “Where as, Neils mob are all in the hands of business, and would see us all living in caves. Isn’t that right Neil.”

    See it is comments like that why i have no respect for the ALP and its supporters.

    You really believe you are more moral than the people who vote for the Coalition.

    And the rest of your post is just rubbish.

    And from what i have read Howard spent more on infrastructure than any previous Federal govt in spit of what ALP supporters say.

    I have to thank you Neil, replying to you, allows us to remind us how bad Howard’s days were.”

    You people are not just corrupt and liars you are just really offensive human beings as well. Under Howard unemployment reached 4% and anyone who wanted a job could get one.

  127. “I do not believe that Shorten, or those behind them are nice guys, as Beasley was.”

    I agree with your comments.

    Shorten? For mine well he hasn’t got it. I have spoken to my family and friends all come to the same conclusion, he needs a character transplant. I think Albo /Plibersek was the man/women for the job, articulate, intelligent, and most, most, important, he/she is down to earth.

    Maybe Shortens hiding his light??? Don’t know, but he needs something.

    I truly believe the Labor party is waiting to see if Abbott gets dumped for Turnbull, (according to Philip Adams there’s trouble at mill in the Liberal party).if so. I then think they’ll move on Shorten. Fresh broom and all that.

  128. “You people are not just corrupt and liars you are just really offensive human beings as well. Under Howard unemployment reached 4% and anyone who wanted a job could get one.”

    Neil, have you tried a psychologist? You know what? They can work wonders now, even paranoid, deluded, pathological, bull shit artists like you, are not beyond help.

    I once knew a greedy self serving conservative blow hard half wit like you, 2 visits to the Doctor and he gave his life Jesus and works in India helping the poor. Get on board Neil, next stop, salvation.

  129. I once knew a greedy self serving conservative blow hard half wit like you”

    I am just telling the truth. And yes i do find ALP supporters offensive. The lies drive me nuts.

    One of the first things these people told me about Howard was that he allegedly changed the way the unemployment rate was measured hence unemployment fell from 8% to 4%. But it was still really at 8% if Howard did not fudge the figures.

    Turns out working one hour /week is the international definition of employment and all the OECD countries use it and has been used by the ABS for years, well before Howard got elected.

    Most of what you people say is factually inaccurate.

  130. Yes, Neil, you have picked up where you left off six months ago. Some words, in the same order, that goes around in circles.

    Are you sure you have not been asleep all that time, and just woken up.

  131. Neil you really don’t get it do you? The economic figures have been fudged by all sides of politics since the mists of time. Constantly referring to them like it’s ‘ A Gotcha’ makes you sound like a petulant school boy. The truth will always be found in the middle some where.

    Your side of politics is not concerned with working class people. To say otherwise is a monumental lie. I will concede, most people I hang out with think most business people are shysters and greedy get rich merchants. This in reality is abject bollocks.It’s not most it’s nearly all of them.
    However, one only has to look at the members of the government, most of them are lawyers, or x staffers for other politicians. They have about as much business experience as anyone in the Labor party.

    Now, as for personalities, If you are seriously telling people on this blog you think the likes of Abbott, Pyne, Hunt, Hockey, Bishop, really know what the fuck they are doing, you Sir are barking fucking mad. Most people are not political tragic’s like us, that’s me and you, they have not seen these fools previously in full flight, as each day passes the idiocy of these numb nuts is coming out in spades. To deny Abbott is now not viewed with utter contempt by the electorate, and thought of a the village idiot, is bordering on madness.

    Yes the Labor party has its share of wankers too, but please a little honesty would be so refreshing.

  132. Yep, Neil, just as I predicted. Same old words.

    “You people are not just corrupt and liars you are just really offensive human beings as well. Under ”

    Neil, why do you bother coming here, just to make a fool of yourself. Are you a masochist.

  133. Phil

    This may sound strange but i found my head nodding in agreement with a lot of what you said.

    However i am more anti-Labor than pro-Coalition because of the many lies these people have told me over the years e.g. Howard manipulated the unemployment rate.

    But my belief is that a bad Coalition govt is better than most Labor govts. A lot of ALP politicians go straight from school to Union rep to politics with no life experience at all.

  134. “A lot of ALP politicians go straight from school to Union rep to politics with no life experience at all.”

    This isn’t true is it? Come on, surely you jest.

  135. Methinks these union fellows are about to be well and truly f…….d up the sh*tsh**t! And NOT be4 time…I 4 1 am rubbing my hands with glee. ;P

  136. No way am I a martyr.. Anyone that knows me, would laugh at such a description. Yes, I am a survivor, never a victim. My luck was coming from a very strong and upright family. A mother, who was probably a feminist, and her mother before her. They just did. Would have laughed at such a description.

    Don, there are many of us out there. That is the way one survives when things do not turn put as one hoped.

    As going from school, to the factory floor, onto union rep, is a great training ground for politics

    In fact, was probably the only path, Labor politicians had in the past.

    I believe that produced must better MP than we have today. When MP from both sides, do law or similar any course, joins as a political staffer, and at a young age, stands for parliament.

    Coming up through the union movement was a hard task, that stood one well in politics.

  137. Don, you have not told us what welfare you have enjoyed. You will be lying, if you say none. By the way, that was not a diatribe. I was just answering your question, as honestly as I could. After all, I am now a great grandmother, and have lived a full life. Looking back, I probably did not regret much.,

  138. “But my belief is that a bad Coalition govt is better than most Labor govts. A lot of ALP politicians go straight from school to Union rep to politics with no life experience at all.”

    What’s life’s experience if not the union movement?

    Unfortunately the union movement is like the police and the armed forces. A necessary evil.

    The union movement just didn’t spring up with ” I know ” Lets screw over business.

    The union movement is not there to put business’s out of business, they are there for fair wages and conditions. For every corrupt union official, there are corrupt CEO’s the banking industry is testament to that salient fact.

    All governments have made a boner of government, I believe a lot of its individual members are frauds, and very few of them are really in it for the good of the nation. They all have their noses in the trough and it’s the best gravy train in town.

    But back to Abbott, after his performance at Davos, it is patently clear this man is out of his depth. He will bring Australia incorporated undone given enough time.

    I believe that poor people the sick the disadvantaged should be given dignity of a life, they can live with out being in the gutter. Conservatives historically have put every obstacle in the way of that fine Labor tradition. That is not my opinion btw, that is an historical documented fact.

    We can ague until the cows come home about good and bad governments, I concede Labor has had its moments that they would rather people forget. But, the Labor movement is a very broad church, it still has members that believe in the light on the hill. I am btw no longer one of them. They lost me when they screwed over single mothers. But I still believe in the basic tenets of the party and always will.

  139. Being a union rep, working with the workers, and dealing with employers is no life experience, How does one come to that conclusion?

    Note most, as the ACTU leader Ged Kearney, worked in their professions, for years, before moving on to union position. How come, being a nurse, and I suspect wife and mother for many years, not life experience. Some talk much rubbish, I must say.

    Now Don, maybe you can point out what superior life experience you have. As usual, you will ignore such requests. Just good at putting others down, and not much more.

  140. Phil, it is true, the only power labour has is to stand together. Does not matter if it is in a union or not. There is no other way.

    The unions have been attacked for as long as I can remember. So has Labor. Yes, and both are still standing. Know why. It is because they re made up of people. Yes, the little person mainly.

  141. “It is the workers that Abbott stabbed in the back this week, with SPC, not the unions.”

    Indeed. Yes it was.

    Yes we have to stand united, there is trouble coming that I will bet my children’s lives on. I just hope the union movement does not fall into the trap, that Abbott is busy weaving. According to Philip Adams who is not known for malicious rumours, the cabinet is in turmoil, the poles, granted the election is a long way off, do not look good for them. These rank amateurs have to go, did you see what Fraser said about Abbott? A very dangerous man.

    Chin up, this mob will soon be gone.

  142. I’ve not put anybody down. I’ve simply asked a question and you have answered. I now know what style of person I am conversing with, that’s all.

    As for your suggestion that I am lying by saying I have never received welfare, I am wondering how you come to such a belief? Don’t you believe that there are some in Oz who have never received welfare? Really???

  143. Fair dinkum Phil. you lefty hypocritical prick. Coca Cola is one of the global conglomerates you lefties sook about (read smashing the poor old downtrodden worker )and now you want the Australian tax payer to bail them out with a piss-ant $25 million when they earn a global profit in the billions.You Labor wankers never ever cease to amaze me!

  144. Don me old mate, you will never hear me knocking a conglomerate when it is doing the right thing. Australian companies have been bailed out by governments before (Howards brother remember just one off the rank the amount is irrelevant)? and will be in the future, that is the nature of the beast. For mine the government should buy SPC out. But that is just the socialist wanker in me.

    The cost by not bailing them out is the question that should be asked.

    “.You Labor wankers never ever cease to amaze me! ”

    Yea I know how you feel.

  145. So Don, you hypocrite why is Abbott subsidising to a massive amount huge businesses in this country like mining companies, who are mostly owned by overseas interest and most of the profits go offshore? They are mega rich yet he still gives them massive handouts and huge tax breaks, and they don’t even employ that many,

    Worse still he’s planning on giving these very wealthy even more breaks at the cost of the less well off in this country.

    And you believe all that’s fair, hypocrite.

  146. Interesting interview on ABC News Breakfast this morning MJ.

    I missed that ME, sadly.

    From your report it seems that 6% unemployment is the new NAIRU (the “non-accelerating inflation rate of unemployment”). It’s been 5% for some time.

    I actually think that 6% unemployment is a far greater threat to this government than an increase in interest rates that are currently at record lows. That’s why we’ve had all this recent drum-beating from Hartsuyker, Andrews, and Abetz: “work for the dole”, “welfare is unsustainable”, and “a 70’s style wages break-out”. All this is about making sure we stay focused on “the problem”, the unemployed themselves. The government is worried.

    Much is made of the official cash rate but it’s distributional effects are largely unknown. Mortgagors hate increases, savers love them. Who do savers vote for ?

    An unemployment rate of 6% plus however will be the harbinger of a recession as aggregate demand deteriorates further. The proposed spending cuts would make this almost inevitable.

    Recessions however create wonderful opportunities for certain classes and I can imagine those interests will be the driving force behind encouraging the government to pursue the austerity line come budget time. The budget will be an exercise in balancing right-wing ideology against the risk of loss of support from the wider electorate from the inevitable consequences of austerity.

  147. Thing is MJ that though this government is talking about spending cuts they have actually increased spending, about 10% so far over the same period last year.

    All their cuts are at the periphery and small, but enough to hurt the ones most in need. Take their welfare proposals. Though screaming about it being unsustainable they are leaving alone the two biggest costs to welfare, as they are their biggest voting block, and only hitting the smallest wedge of the pie.

    As they found out when they got into power Labor had already done a good job in their efficiency dividends drives through government, so left little for Abbott to mangle. Now they are in a bind as like Labor they promises surpluses and all these billions they had identified to save that they fudged the books on, but there are nowhere near billions to save.

    If on the hand they did the right thing and kept the Carbon Price and MRT along with scrapping the utterly stupid PPL they would have a chance of keeping decent deficits to pay for infrastructure and growth instead of the idiocy they are now engaged in.

  148. It is more than a few factory jobs that will be lost. What is at stake is this industry. Now, Coca Cola is wealthy. They will leave their money where they get the best return. The government has been told, they will stay if there is a copay deal with the company. Yes, about the same amount that Abbott is wasting on his Pink Batt effort.

    Now, as far as the company is concerned, regardless of how wealthy, they will be a winner either way. They stay here, or take their money somewhere else for higher return,

    Now Abbo9tt is trying to blame it all on high wages and conditions. All the workers fault.

    This is not true. Abbott ignores the cost of the high dollar over the last few years, I suspect there could even be a little of getting back at Gonski involved. Why would Abbott say, Gonski will not let the workers down?

    The truth is Coca Cola is doing as is their right., Making decisions that are in the best interest adds shareholders. They have no obligation to stay in this country.

  149. The trouble is, the Abbott’s rationale does not stand scrutiny. It is not the fault of greedy workers’ ans unions. The unions in this case have bent over backwards to keep SPC in operation. So have the farmers relying on the factory.

    The silly thing is, it is going to cost the government much more in the long run,

    ………….Workers at SPC Ardmona are hardly likely to be eating oysters and drinking champagne for breakfast each day.
    Typical workers earn around $24 or $25 an hour – just shy of $50,000 a year. They can earn some extra overtime in peak picking periods on top of that.
    To put that in some perspective, the ordinary-hours average yearly wage in Australia is nearly $74,000. In manufacturing that figure comes in at just shy of $67,000. So whatever the problems are at SPC Ardmona, it’s surely not that the workers are grossly overpaid.
    On Thursday, Prime Minister Tony Abbott described the agreement between the company and union as ”extraordinary”, focusing on the above-award conditions such as ”wet allowances” and redundancy of four weeks a year of service. But this is disingenuous.
    Awards, as Abbott knows as a former workplace relations minister, are nowadays a safety net of the barest wages and conditions.
    For instance the award rate for a level two worker in the food industry is $16.85 an hour, a smidge above the national minimum wage.
    Reformers on the conservative side of politics in the 1980s led the charge against the dominant role for awards and centralised wage fixing in setting pay and conditions. Now many more workers, such as those at SPC Ardmona, have their wages and conditions set by bargaining.
    The idea behind enterprise bargaining is it should better reflect the individual circumstances of each business.
    Does Abbott seriously want many more workers and businesses to have their pay and conditions set by awards and a much greater role for industrial tribunals? That would undo two decades of reform.
    And that ”extraordinary” wet allowance that caught the prime ministerial eye. It is set in the SPC Ardmona enterprise agreement at the grand total of 58¢ an hour. It is paid when an employee’s clothes or shoes become wet. Hardly onerous.
    Redundancy payments of four weeks a year of service at SPC Ardmona are well in excess of the national minimum standard, but that is not unusual in enterprise agreements. They have already moved to pare that back.
    For workers employed after 2012, redundancy payouts will now be capped at one year’s wage rather than two.
    It is worth noting that these conditions were fr…

    Read more:

  150. If Rudd had managed to get a MRRT through when there was super profits in the mining industry, the money could have been used to assist these industries.
    Yes, industries suffering from the high dollar, bough about by the super profits that the miners were getting,

    We all know why that did not occur.

  151. Thing is MJ that though this government is talking about spending cuts they have actually increased spending, about 10% so far over the same period last year.

    That seems to be the case ME. They’ve been “caught” with having to continue with some of Labor’s initiatives and at the same time deal with falling revenues, and probably increasing benefit payments as unemployment creeps northward.

    We should be grateful for small mercies.

    Meanwhile, the “deficit=bad” fear-mongering continues unabated. Sometimes when I read the MSM I wonder if I’ve been teleported to another universe where black is white, up is down, and night is actually day.

    The Commission of Audit is going to be hoot. Rather than a “road-map to surplus” it will be a “road-map to recession”. Cashed up investors are getting tingling feelings in their gonads in anticipation of picking up some bargains at the foreclosures.

    It will all be Labor’s fault of course. Hardly a day goes by without us being reminded of the “mess” Labor left behind.

    There was no “mess”of course but Labor stupidly helped pile fuel around its own pyre with it’s own brand of “deficits=bad” rhetoric, and then gave Hockey the matches.

    Trying to match the LNP’s surplus rhetoric was a monumental political blunder.

    Economics students learn in the first semester that you can’t have budget surpluses when you’ve got current account deficits, and the last time we had an external surplus was when Gough was in power. But when they graduate and get jobs in the corporate world, it’s the first thing they’re told to forget. When your paycheck depends on holding certain beliefs it’s amazing how adaptable we humans can be.

    We have to learn that budget surpluses are an aberration in an economy like ours. They always presage a recession, either directly, or when the household sector runs out of savings. The Left has to somehow get this message to the Labor Party and the Greens.

  152. MJ, back in the days, when I believe what my father said, money cannot be wasted, it is made to go round,. When it stops, we are in trouble. Then I also had this funny idea that every time it went around, it created more money, or maybe wealth. Yes, I also come to this stupid conclusion, that when a budget came in, in surplus, it meant they were collecting too much text. Yes, I have seen a surplus as over taxing.

    MYJ,. I do admit I know little more now, but I do understand there is more to any economy or budget, that deficits and surpluses. In fact, living within ones means in meaningless. To me, it means most times, that the government is not collecting enough. Big business and income earners are NOT paying their fair share.

    Yes, confused outlook I had on economics.. Still basically believe the same. I do know, that the focus on debt, tells us nothing. Living within ones means, is a Hockey’s way of conning us all.

    The one thing I have held onto, is that the economy can be talked up or down, with disastrous results. I also see debt, not as bad, as an investment in our people and our future.

    It is how it is spent that counts. One cannot cut on essentials and prosper.

    I am not an expert on money. These are just the beliefs I have come to. I am lost when it comes to theories. Then whatever theory, one supports, depends on the outcome one wants.

    What I want, is a distribution of wealth, that leads to a well educated, healthy and fair society for all.

    One where the monetary system serves the whole community. Not the people serve the money system.

  153. One where the monetary system serves the whole community. Not the people serve the money system.

    Or where the money system serves the interest of only some of the people.

    Unfortunately the money system is a man-made construct which, in operation, often conflicts with our deeply entrenched notions of “common sense”.

    Hockey’s “we must live within our means” appeals to our “common sense” which, when it comes to how the economy actually works, is just exploitation of our ignorance.

    Perhaps the best known example of the counter-intuitive nature of economics (more accurately, macro-economics) is the “Paradox of Thrift”. Saving is a good thing for any one household to do, but if all households did it, the economy would crash, and nobody would save. Your father seems to have understood something that our Treasurer has yet to learn.

  154. MJ, a man born 1900. Left school at 12. Had his own team of horses. Share farming by 14. Then his own property in the mid 1920’s. Yes, a loner, that married at 39. I go out I know where his ideas came from. They seem to have made sense.

    One fault, to honest for his own good.

  155. Fed up don’t worry about economics, there are so called economists with letters after their name, and they still don’t know Jack Shit. They all have different ideas about how to solve the problems of the country, they all fail. Most of them couldn’t run a pub chook raffle. They like to dazzle us with words like micro, macro, leveraging, qualitative easing, bond markets, the only thing that makes sense is, bankers are making a motza. They are responsible for the crisis we are now in. They sent the economies of Ireland Iceland and Greece arse up. There are many more to come.

    The only thing the economists are not telling us is, well, some of them are is, there ‘s another crash coming down the pike that is going to make the last one look like a missed payment on a rented T.V. These bastards are laughing at us, and we keep letting them do it. Because its the only game in town. For us in our dotage we’ll probably manage, but young kids who are mortgaged up to their necks are going to be very unhappy.

    Abbott and his entourage of ‘Babbling Baboons’ know it is coming, they are trying to rearrange the deck chairs before the sinking. Only they are trying as per usual, protecting their scaly mates. The working class will pay for these arse holes ineptitude.

  156. Theories, in anything, are just that. They rely on all being constant. This will happen, if that occurs.

    The same seems to go for climate change. If the ocean here gets warmer, the current will go that way, bringing different werather with it.

    When they tell us we have to live within our means, that is nothing but a con, not a theory.

    If I work four days, I can buy something. Yes, that is a fact. If I miss the bus on day four, I will miss work, and be short of money to buy what I intended. Theory OK, if all went to plan.

  157. The trouble with most theories, most forget the “ifs”

    No the worker in not going to roll over. Royal Commission, especially wide reaching ones, that Labor should demand, do not give the results one plans on.

    All take on a life of their own, which no government can control

    This is why I think Abbott has become very reluctant to take the next step. He maybe gets wise counsel from those who are in the firing line, and see the dangers.

    A big “if” is whether the public really care. Second is how many corrupt employers they find.

  158. “This is why I think Abbott has become very reluctant to take the next step. He maybe gets wise counsel from those who are in the firing line, and see the dangers.”

    For mine it’s too late, the train has left the station and there’s no stopping it.

    For capitalism to work you must have constant growth, we are reaching saturation point. Abbott and his mates live in cuckoo land, thinking this juggernaut can go on forever.

    How many T.V.’s do we need? You can by a half dozen of them now, all well made and most of them last. Of course the right wingers would have us believe the market is untapped. That is true, but that market cannot afford them. China is already slowing down, and when we slow down the never ending wheel of supply and demand bottoms.

    You know when the economy is going south, look at any street verge pick up, brand new bicycles with a flat tyre, fridges that still work, I picked up a vacuum cleaner for my car, nothing wrong with it, (it was probably the wrong colour) I picked up a music Amp probably cost 400 bucks plugged it in and bingo music. It’s over, not next week, not next month, possibly not next year, but it’s over, there are going to be many tears shed soon enough.

  159. “For mine it’s too late, the train has left the station and there’s no stopping it.”


    You need to take Bex and lie down.

    I know you lefties would hate it if Abbott is successful and our economy booms.

    I know that you would rather live in a trashed economy, unemployed rather than employed under an Abbott govt.

    Under Labor we went from 0.000% Federal govt debt to 10% of GDP in 6 years. May not be big but it was the fastest increase in the Western world. Another 6 years of Labor and we would be doomed.

    Unlike you i hope Abbott is successful.

  160. Neil, how many unionists have been jailed in the last fifty or more years, from the many Royal Commissions that have occurred, making the same allegations. Even the Painters and Dockers,Victoria, which most would agree was corrupt, produced more crooked bosses, that workers.

    Go ask your masters this question. You are in for a great shock.

  161. “Unlike you i hope Abbott is successful.”

    You are just carrying on the delusion. Capitalism is finished, we can’t keep exploiting the planet forever. With out spin, tell me what we are going to do when the oil and gas runs out, Notwithstanding fracking will die a death, because of the environmental damage. What will we do when the rare earths run out, the copper, the lead etc. etc., already in the U.S. they are mining rubbish dumps for copper and God knows what else. If you have been to China like I have, the pollution in the Cities burns your eye balls out, I spent more money on Visine and nasal drops than I did tucker. The rest of the industrial world doesn’t look like that nice park at the end of your leafy suburb.

    The seas are being fished out the Pacific is dyeing, we have strains of flu on the rise we don’t have antibiotics for. And contrary to what you believe global warming is a reality. When the penny drops and it will, what are we going to do with the masses of unemployed etc.etc etc that will be created fixing the problems????????????????????????????????????????????????

    These are not the ravings of a rampant lefty this is the reality.

  162. Hi Shane

    I am not sure but i think i joined in well after the post started but i could be wrong.

    I am not sure why i post here. I come here and i see a comment that drives me nuts and i cannot help myself.

  163. a comment that drives me nuts and i cannot help myself.

    That’s because you don’t have far to drive Neil 😆

  164. Hi Neil

    The difference is those people had already commented on the topic earlier.

    I think you post here because you like to stir the pot when it comes to the so called “Lefties” you so vehemently hate. You enjoy getting a reaction and pushing someones buttons. You enjoy parroting the same old hatred lines that you have spouted now for years.Yet your own one sided extreme bias is no different to that which you howl down with your comments.
    In addition you are permitted to post here. Unlike myself who seems banned by NewsCorp because I do not agree with their political dogma.

  165. “You enjoy parroting the same old hatred lines that you have spouted now for years.Yet your own one sided extreme bias is no different to that which you howl down with your comments.”

    What a load of crap. I call it as i see it. I do not agree with the ALP.

    “In addition you are permitted to post here. Unlike myself who seems banned by NewsCorp because I do not agree with their political dogma.

    Even more crap. If you are talking about Bolt i cannot get posted also. Since Bolt was taken to court his blog is a disaster. He cannot post anything without moderators since lefties took him to court and sued him.

  166. Yes, one has to agree Neil, one has to be nuts to post here as you do. It is a shame, that you cannot take the next step, and actually look at what we are saying, instead of the useless point scoring, you think you are doing.

    There is much obsessive in your behavior, that allows you to go nowhere, except in circles.
    It is like you are caught in a time warp.

  167. My heart bleeds for Bolt. Bolt’s problems are, that he no longer has a red headed woman to kick, and must refrain from criticizing Abbott.

    You share that with him, as the redhead is also gone for you.

    What I do not understand, is why can’t you move on to defending and singing the praises of Abbott.

    I see that nowhere, even among those from the right. Abbott appears to be kept at arm’s length by most of them. One could say, the rats have no intention of going down with the Abbott’s ship. Well, except the bigger rats that surround and are using him.

  168. Neil, it does surprise me, that anything you have to say, would upset Bolt. The only reason I can see if that is true, he finds what you are saying, boring.

    Neil, even Michael on these sites has to be careful, that nothing gets through, as could be seen libelous. One really has to be telling big porkies that harm a person’s reputation, for that to occur. Not that easy.

    That is what Bolt did. Bought it for himself, as he continued to do so, after being warned. It was what he said, not those who commented on the site.

  169. I know you lefties would hate it if Abbott is successful and our economy booms“.

    I can honestly say Neil that as a card-carrying Lefty, I couldn’t give a stuff whether it was Labor or Liberal so long as they had a policies that supported full employment and social justice (i.e., a “fair go”)

    These days I’m equally contemptuous of both.

    Or to put it like Deng Xiaoping: “It doesn’t matter whether a cat is white or black, as long as it catches mice.”

    Under Labor we went from 0.000% Federal govt debt to 10% of GDP in 6 years. May not be big but it was the fastest increase in the Western world. Another 6 years of Labor and we would be doomed.”

    This statement from you however tells me that you are either a dickhead or dishonest.

    A dickhead because you seem unaware that we’ve just had the greatest upheaval since the Great Depression.

    Dishonest because you cannot possibly be unaware of the above.

    But thanks again for displaying your ignorance and stupidity to the many who read but do not participate here. You just reinforce that old adage that whilst not all conservatives are stupid, most stupid people are conservative.

  170. A dickhead because you seem unaware that we’ve just had the greatest upheaval since the Great Depression.”

    All the GFC did was accelerate what always happens under Labor

    Despite all of this however, revenues in 2013-14 are forecast to be $103 billion higher than in Peter Costello’s final 2007-08 budget. That is an increase of 38 per cent in nominal terms, or about 12 per cent in real terms, and that despite the impact of the GFC. The real problem is that spending has surged by $138 billion since Labor came to power in November 2007. That is an increase of 55 per cent in nominal terms, or 25 per cent in real terms. Profligate spending and a habitual disregard for the responsible use of taxpayers’ funds has become ingrained. The government says that it has a revenue problem. Saying that the government has a revenue problem is as stupid as saying a person who is a spendthrift and regularly maxes out his credit card has a revenue problem. The government, like any spendthrift, has a spending problem; in other words, it cannot live within its means”

  171. Honestly I don’t know why any of you read Neil’s posts. The best thing you can do is completely ignore him as I do.

    He doesn’t add anything to any debate and just regurgitates the same crap over and over. I could write his posts almost word for word that’s how unoriginal and consistent he has been for years now.

    The idiot thinks he’s clever in stirring the post but proves what a gormless twit he is in his regurgitations, almost as stupid as his beloved hero Abbott.

    Ignore him people.

  172. This statement from you however tells me that you are either a dickhead or dishonest.

    Both actually MJ. Neil has had the facts from reputable sources given to him on a platter repeatedly for at least 6 years now, by those on this blog and its predecessors, yet he still goes back to linking to partisan crap like the MT speech above.

    If you wish to get anything into his moronic head, I suggest a piece of 4×2 applied liberally with great force behind the left ear with each word spoken 😉

  173. Partisan crap?? What was wrong with what Turnbull said?? Budgets are usually trashed under Labor as soon as night follows day.

    And it is because socialists do not believe that debt is a problem.

    At least it is factual until the falsehoods you lot have told me since 2007.

  174. And it is because socialists do not believe that debt is a problem.

    Ben Bernanke, Alan Greenspan, and Frank Newman, the former Deputy Secretary of the US Treasury (3 names off the top of my head) are socialists ?

  175. The only one I have seen obsessed with debt, seem to be the USA Tea Party, and their followers here.

    I have not seen any reputable economist that hold concerns. I leaver Judith Sloan out of that statement.

    I think she is just a fool.

    Only a fool could say, the veggiies could be replaced with dating.

    An industry that is disappearing in this country, quicker than vegetable growing.

    This I know, as my father was a dairy farmer for four years, back in the 1950’S.

    I do not believe there are any dairies with hundreds of kilometers now,

    What gets me with Neil, he seems to think the figures he gives backs his arguments. Most are meaniless taken out of context, as he does.

  176. Oh, the times I’ve been called a Lefty by R/wingers 🙄 ….and time and time again I have had to say I’m an Australian with empathy for my fellow Australians…… WHAT DON’T YOU GET……. gawd, 😯 it so hard 😮 ……. NO, I’m not an R/winger…. I don’t choose self over my fellow countryperson’s ( 😳 PC me 🙂 ), I have lines in the sand that I do not cross….. unlike R/winger’s whom choose otherwise…..on ya’s 😛 (traitorous means justify the enderists 😀 )
    NoS, ewe are either a follower (baa) with an agenda…. or your nuts….. which is what again……. oh, oh… and would you like fries with that…… oh, oh… and have a noice aftermorning *beams*
    this reminds me of ewe NoS :-

  177. The only one I have seen obsessed with debt, seem to be the USA Tea Party, and their followers here.

    Unfortunately I think there might be a lot more than you think FU.

    Defict hysteria probably got Abbott over the line at the last election.

    Most Labor voters probably think it’s a problem too.

    It’s a very deeply embedded and irrational fear with no foundation in modern economics whatsoever.

    Oddly, our friend Neil has the beginnings of understanding: he seems to have grasped the concept of sovereign fiat currency based on a comment he made earlier. Unfortunately, in his rush to score what he thought was a political point, he missed the opportunity to develop some valuable insights.

    To repeat, the reason deficits are not a problem (when unemployment is the problem) is because deficit spending is just a “flow”: the money flows into the economy, does its work, and flows back out again (via taxes). Eventually, in time, every dollar the government injects get taxed back out. 100%. Except of course for the loose change that gets lost down the back of the sofa.

    The so-called debt, the accumulated “stock” of all the deficits, is actually savings in the bank accounts of the private sector (such as government bonds held by superannuation funds). The government issues bonds to mop up excess reserves in the commercial banking system to maintain control of the official cash rate. Bonds have nothing to do with raising funds for the government to spend.

    One can make this as complicated as one likes, but the basics are very simple.

    If Malcolm Turnbull had given that speech that Neil quoted from to an audience that understood modern money they would’ve been rolling in the aisles. It would be like telling an audience of astro-physicists that the Earth was flat.

  178. More lies

    ..The claim: Kevin Andrews has labelled Australia’s welfare system unsustainable and says in 10 to 15 years’ time Australia could find itself in the same situation that some European countries are in.
    The verdict: Treasury projections to 2050 show welfare spending as a proportion of GDP will remain steady over the next three decades….–makes-unfounded-welfare-claim/5215798

    From the site, that Abbott believes the ABC waste money on. Barnady Joyce reckons he will have a big job convincing cabinet for money to assist drought stricken farmers.

  179. MJ, I am sure it is the word “debt”that lost Labor the last election more than anything.

    I seem to remember Turnbull saying in relation to NBNCO, that business did to make decisions based on the technology they need in a decade. (Words to that effect) He went on to say, they only make decisions on what is required today. I am sure he would be laughed out of the room, if he made such a statement in the hearing on business.

  180. One thing for sure, Abbott better be right, or this country is in big trouble. Not time for putting ones extereme policies in place.

    If they go down the track, they promise, debt will be the least our our problems.

    ……An alternative, but riskier approach would be to press on with the deficit-reducing measures, but offset their contractionary effect by embarking on a big new program of spending on infrastructure. This makes the point federal governments have hitherto ignored in their rhetoric: it’s only the recurrent (or operating) budget that needs to be balanced over the cycle.
    It’s perfectly responsible for capital works spending to be financed partly by borrowing – thereby requiring future generations to contribute to the cost of the long-lasting infrastructure they benefit from – provided the projects aren’t wasteful but yield a high social return.
    Another worry is Hockey’s statement before Christmas that his budget-repair measures would be limited to cuts in government spending, which was reinforced by Abbott’s homily at Davos praising smaller government and lower taxes.
    As John Daley of the Grattan Institute has noted, there’s no precedent for successful fiscal consolidation here or elsewhere that didn’t involve both spending cuts and tax increases.
    The plain fact is that, though there’s much scope for spending cuts – reduced business welfare, including subsidies to chemists, inefficient arrangements with fee-for-service doctors, home-made submarines, excessively generous grants to well-off private schools and so on – no remotely plausible list of spending cuts would be sufficient to achieve fiscal sustainability.
    This is mainly because the greatest single contributor to Treasury’s projections of unending budget deficits is the inexorable real growth in spending on healthcare. Any pollie who imagines they could do any more than temporarily slow that growth, or cover its cost by never-ending cuts in other areas of spending, is an ideologically crazed fool.
    The other problem is that for many years much ”spending” by governments has taken the form of tax exemptions, rebates and other concessions. Unless Hockey and Abbott’s definition of spending cuts includes cuts in ”tax expenditures” I can tell you now their efforts will fall far short..

    Read more:

  181. More.

    …..the fall-off in mining construction spending so unpredictable – that Hockey must not only avoid doing anything that adds to the weakness, but also stand ready to inject emergency fiscal stimulus the moment it becomes clear a collapse in mining investment threatens to push us into overall contraction.
    The point is that, while it’s undeniable we need to return the budget to cyclical surplus (and structural balance), this shouldn’t happen – and, thanks to our still low level of public debt, doesn’t need to happen – with any urgency.
    So, how should Hockey resolve this contradiction between smart politics and responsible macro-management and avoid the charge that he’s descended to a counter-productive policy of ”austerity”..

    Read more:

    Debt does not seem to be our main problem. Also Fact Finders say Andrews is wrong. We do not face a welfare blow out. If they cannot identify the problems, or need to lie to support their policies, this country is indeed in strife.

  182. Indeed funny, I think not.

    ..Funny isn’t it? At the same time the Liberal government and its mainstream media (i.e. all of it) is beating up lies about union corruption, Chris Jordan, the Commissioner of Taxation, is considering offering an amnesty to rich tax cheats who salt away their money offshore.

    The Commissioner would limit his reach back to the last 4 years and would be unlikely to prosecute any of the tax evaders or to refer their cases to the DPP for possible prosecution.

    Why is there no royal commission into these corrupt business people and their companies cheating on their tax? Could it be because they are rich and powerful? Not so funny after all…..

  183. According to Hockey, Joyce has it wrong.

    Hockey is laughable when it comes to drought. Do you know, it can happen when the rainfall does not reach the usual norm. Does not mean there is no rain at all. God help us.

    This bullshit, I suspect the farmers will NOT buy

  184. Bill Mitchell would tear that Gittins article in the SMH to bits, FU.

    He’d probably start here:

    It’s perfectly responsible for capital works spending to be financed partly by borrowing – thereby requiring future generations to contribute to the cost of the long-lasting infrastructure they benefit from…

    This is just nonsense. It just further embeds the debt myth. There’s no way that taxes can pay back the “debt”.

    I found this speech by former US Fed Chairman Marriner Eccles in an essay by Bill Mitchell:

    Isn’t it about time that we learned this simple truth? Is it so hard to understand that when an individual owes money he generally owes it to another individual, but when a nation owes money it owes it to itself? When an individual pays a debt, he pays it to someone else. When a nation pays a debt, it pays it to its own people.

    That was 75 years ago, 10 years before Gittins was born.

  185. Thanks for that MJ. Of course it is simple, the debt is to oneself.

    Hockey has tried to claim the government when borrowing, competes with capital, on the global market, crowding out private borrowing.

    What te future generations will have, is the use of the infrastructure put in place, by this gpvernment,. Well that is if they went down that path.

    My point in referring to Gittins, was not about debt, but that Abbott had to be very careful in what actios he takes in the budget, that now is not the time for putting in place, ones own idelogy.

    We cannot afford Abbott.

    All we have seen since the 18/9.2013 is a gvoernment that has done nothing but demolish. Demolish all that Labor built.

    We, today have Pyne out once again, making state schools independent. Something that has failed in the USA and UK.

    Sadly Pyne is ignoring, I suppose because he did bnot read Better Schools, that has already been put in place. Yes, Better Schools, which the states have supported have given schol prinicipal autonomy in the day to day running of schools.

    Ws also have Hockey, saying Joyce has it wrong. Also gave a fuuny explanation of what he thought a frough is. Seems to say, we do ot have any yet.

    Albanese now on. ABC 24

  186. By the way, the Pynes creation of Independent state’s schools is nothing more that outsourcing government responsilty of education, out to the community.

  187. All we have seen since the 18/9.2013 is a gvoernment that has done nothing but demolish. Demolish all that Labor built”

    Lets hope they keep it up.

    The Abbott government has announced the closure of four immigration detention centres.

    Immigration Minister Scott Morrison says the closures will save the government at least $88.8 million a year.”

    We only had 6 boat people in detention in 2007. Labor locked up record numbers of asylum seekers and was always announcing the building of a new detention center.

  188. Neil, what do you believe the cost is about what Morrison is doing. Cost in money, relations with those in the region and suffering of the refugees.

    I, for one, believe the price is too high,.

    Neil, this you need to read Then you might have a better understanding of what the refugee problem is about.

    Yes, Neil, Abbott and Co have demolished all the relationships that this country has with others in the region, including China, just to turn h about a few boats.

    The latest we have today, is that there were navigation problems, that allowed many boats, on many occasions to enter Indonesian sovereign waters.

  189. Hockey has tried to claim the government when borrowing, competes with capital, on the global market, crowding out private borrowing,

    And pushing up interest rates.

    Whenever I hear Joe say that I wonder if it’s the boffins in Treasury feeding him these lines as a kind of “insider’s” joke. God help us if they believe it too.

    If there was a shred of truth in it we’d see it reflected in bond yields. The US 10 year is less than 3%. Our is about 1% higher. The short term rates in the US are close to zero. Ditto UK and Japan.

  190. Neil of Sydney @ February 1, 2014 @ 7:42 pm “You really believe you are more moral than the people who vote for the Coalition.”
    Actually, they are more moral than your people who vote for the Coalition. And the thing that proves it is WAR.
    A trip down Memory Lane (History) should bring some clarity Nil. Can I suggest the era of Europe in the 1930’s. What made it happen as such, why it happened the way it did, and what we learned from the sorry Story.
    If you still can praise it all, then at least we can say we tried to save you from yourself, but you will most likely die a sad death of your own making.
    Pity, as each person has so much potential wrapped up in them. Even you.

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