There’s something in those numbers

The social media has been a frenzy of activity over the last week as people voice their disgust at the grubby antics of the Murdoch media. The Murdoch media has not only come under fire for its gutter journalism and personal attacks on Kevin Rudd, but for its ‘go soft’ approach on Tony Abbott. If only they could hold Abbott to account. And if only they could ask Abbott the questions that we of the social media would like the opportunity to do.

It’s fitting, nay deserved, that the daily sales of Murdoch’s newspapers continue to plummet. At the same time, independent media sites and blog sites continue to grow. It’s a clear message that many people seek an alternative to the traditional media. We of the new media, sadly, at this stage cannot provide news. We lack the resources in both money and personnel. But we can provide opinion – an alternate opinion – and one that represents how many people feel. You won’t find this in the Murdoch media, where only one opinion counts: Rupert’s.

The sites I am associated with, Café Whispers (CW) and the Australian Independent Media Network (The AIMN) have enjoyed record months. The AIMN recorded a huge 24,000 visitors in one day earlier this week, dwarfing the mere record of 8,700 here at CW. It is significant that these figures were achieved in the wake of Murdoch’s grubby blitzkrieg. It is also clear that people like what our authors are delivering.

I think it is safe to assume that the combined readership of the independent blogs could nationally outnumber the readership of a major city newspaper. They would easily outnumber the listeners of say, Alan Jones.

One could argue that the same people read all the individual blogs, but my statistics show otherwise. The statistics record the number of visitors to our sites and where they have visited, or ‘clicked’ from. Very rarely will they come from similar sites, suggesting that each blog, to a large extent, has its own distinct group of loyal readers.

On both CW and The AIMN the percentage of visitors from similar blogs is very small. Facebook, Twitter and Google provide 95% of our visitors while the remaining 5% is made up of a dozen or so from other blogs or media outlets.

There’s something in those numbers.

97 comments on “There’s something in those numbers

  1. It is a wicked twisted world we live in.
    Everything is going against Labor. Why , it’s self inflicted.
    – the Media , ever thought there are more bad things than good to write
    On Rudd
    – the Polls , over 50 done and Labor ahead in none.
    – those evil Bookies, Luxebet has Coalition $1.01. ALP $15.00
    the worst odds for Ms Gillard was $10.50

    Think it will be a loss of 30+ seats for Labor. Wow

  2. Notice tonight when Rudd pressed Abbott to disclose numbers of costings, he avoids and makes out Rudd is negative. Abbott is going to sail into this election in a sea of complete bullshi. You would have to be an a grade gullible moron to vote for the lie that epitomises everything about Abbott.

  3. I run a small site only 240 likes on face book called Labor Now. I think every little bit helps, I put my opinion in every few days, telling the readers another reason i am voteing Labor Now. I think its important especially for a voter like I who has changed parties becasue they are disgusted in the way the party is now run. I am sorely disappointed that a party I once would proudly say I was a supporter now is run by people that cannot answer the simplest questions and is supported by Corrupt Media Mogals and Mineing Magnates. so to close off the way I do for my readers.. Just another reason I vote Labor Now.

  4. I want to throw something out there I am absolutely certain I won’t get a lucid reply to. It’s along the lines of why Abbott would make a good PM, a question by the way that has never been answered by the right wingers outside of he’s not Gillard/Rudd.

    Every time an article is bought up against Abbott or the media all the right wingers can come back with is polls and bookie odds, never any lucid explanatory answers as to why it’s a good thing for the Liberals under Abbott to win, just that they will win purely as a put down to those of an opposing view. A worse immaturity than many young school kids as you can almost feel their imbecilic anticipation in the glee they will feel coming here and posting, “we won nya nya”. To them that’s what this is all about, the winning and the put down of those here because they could not intelligently argue on merit and credibility for their own side. They could not string together a short précis of facts and policies that will make the Liberals a great government party nor could they give outlining details of their policies and programs, the costing of them and how they will benefit us.

    So here is a chance to put that right.

    As they could not answer why Abbott would make a good PM, how about they tell us with coherent reasoning why the Liberals would be good for the country and people in government? Forget Abbott, everyone knows he will be a dud and is a clueless automaton for others, even his own side and most Liberal supporters don’t believe in him, but what of the party itself, what makes them worthy of government?

  5. According to Palmer, there is something behind the poll numbers.

    Would be a shame to have lost someone like Gillard to those polls if this turned out to be true. Actually, it would be a criminal shame if it were true.

  6. Wonder why the right wingers never ever mention poll information like this from Essential:

    Crikey has crunched the numbers, state by state, and found Labor could hang on to government.

    They are very selective in their quoting of polls and relying almost exclusively on betting odds, more of a put down of those here than any real coherent political analysis, which is way beyond them.

  7. Oh look Liberal Party troll, Voyager, is here to spout his usual bullshit. Go back to Menzies House, you stupid tool. The truth is that there has been *plenty* of positive things to say about Labor, but News Corpse decided it would rather focus on leadership speculation & unfounded allegations-whilst turning a blind eye to the very *real* allegations against senior members of the Liberal Party-& their complete lack of properly costed policies. As for the polls, well we know all too well how disgustingly manipulated they are-& punters take their betting cues from the polls. I wonder if Voyager & Scraper will spend the next 3 years saying “we woz robbed” when their beloved Abbott gets the thrashing he so clearly deserves?


    “Senior ministers” and “insiders” and “sources”.

    Yes, very reliable, but total bullshit. This from the same tabloid that did it’s level best to ridicule and attack Gillard at every step, with rumours from those very same “sources” no doubt. – Just like TMZ, only political.

    All crap, all the time.

  9. And a bit more bs coming from the direction of Tony Abbott.

    One of the Coalition’s central claims about waste in the public service, that a department spent more than $180,000 studying ergonomic chairs, is wrong.

    With the truth of the matter being..

    ”The $185,896 on the AusTender website is the maximum value of contract amounts for ergonomic assessments for individual staff members for 2012-13 – it does not represent the actual amount spent. The department’s actual spend on ergonomic assessments for these contracts in 2012-13 was $51,000.”

    DHS is the government’s largest department, employing more than 35,000 staff across the nation in ”front-line” agencies such as Centrelink, Medicare and the Child Support Agency.

    The department has been recognised by federal workplace safety authority Comcare for its efforts to improve health and safety and to bring down the bill to taxpayers of workers’ compensation claims by its staff.

    ”These assessments are completed occasionally when the department is trying to prevent injury or return injured staff to work, and are just one of the department’s strategies to reduce risk of injury,” the spokesman said.

    Neither Mr Briggs’ office nor Coalition campaign headquarters have responded to questions about why the claims were not checked before being included in the opposition’s campaign material.

  10. Voyager, you have noticed that Labor has served two terms now. It is up to the voter whether they want to give them a third go.

    Listening to people being interviewed it the street, many are confused, and are saying so.

    I think the numbers on last nights debate tell us what the true situation is. Yes, there are about equal for fir the two major parties, but still a big number of undecided. Many more than usual.

    It is said, the norm is for up to 30% to make up their minds in the last week. Maybe about 10% on the day of the election.

    So putting faith in polls at this time, is frankly a little stupid.

    Personally, I believe it will come down to, whom, many dislike the less. There is no great love out there for either leader.

    This, I must say, a strange state of affairs.

    Sometimes, I believe the public is treating this election, with the contempt it deserves. That is for all parties.

    At the last. Abbott claim of getting rid of the carbon tax, will leave them hundreds of dollars better off. This is not true. If that is so, Abbott’s dream for the future, is built on sand.

    Abbott is coming across,as more false every day.

  11. From your link Ross

    as panic rises within the Government over its faltering campaign.

    What is ‘faltering’. They are in a position where they can quite feasibly win from here? In fact, Essential had them doing just that in its last poll.

    Faltering. ROFL

  12. ABC 24 Abbott at school in western Sydney/ A community based school. Announcing new educational policy, later this morning. Benefited from the so called better school programme..Abbott’s word. Must have been hard to support a programme of Gillard. At Penrith.

    Education policy a little later. Suggest that one listens hard, to what is not said,

    It is NOT “Better Schools” he is supporting. Only that he will spend the same amount of money. How he is to spend that money, is what counts.

    Abbott want to dismantle the public system as we know ii, to replace with what he calls Independent PS. Has not delivered, when put in place.

    Abbott wants to continue what Howard began, growth in the private school system.

    All the countries, that lead the world in education standards. only have public school systems. What we now have is the way to go.
    Yes, the money should follow the child, not the school, whether public or private.

  13. PS The schools, whether public or private, should be accountable to the government, in the way that money is spent.

    This election is about where our education is heading. If Abbott wins, the dreams of Gonski will be lost forever.

  14. By this time, in the 2010 elections, I had strongly came to the view, it could be a hung parliament. This time, in spite of the polls, I have no idea what the result will be. None at all.

    As for Abbott not believing in Gonski, and for that matter, man made climate change is important,

    If one wants Better Schools and the matter of carbon emissions address, they cannot afford Abbott.

    Rudd picking up on Hockey’s cuts to small business, yesterday. Where are the headlines, in this matter.

    The question, the many undecided need to ask, is not whom they like, but whether, they personally afford Abbott.

  15. I reckon it’s all about getting your word out there. Going on Facebook, Google plus, commenting on blogs and alternative news as well as MSM if you can get past their doors. You can pick up their urI or find their twitter name and post your shriek back to them. Retweeting is a good move too, plus favourites for support. Keep it all moving along. Just posted George Wright at Labor at 4,00pm re Rudd having to use quick retorts and punchy lines in Sydney, with some humour too, and guess what he was doing it. I loved his offer of handshake. Abbott looked briefly shocked but you know those Sydney men are used to this. Just not from Rudd LOL.
    The word goes out to the ethers, and I am not saying that my email even got read by George Wright although I sent my latest lampoon about deadly spamming worm Murdoch. Still! best to get the word out word out rather than say nothing.

    I sent the latest Murdoch lampoon to @rupertmurdoch
    Did he get upset and backlash today…who knows? Don’t really care as it is all about getting it out there for me.

  16. Yes, Mr Abbott is correct, it should not be about the amount of the funding.
    Mr. Abbott, what it is about, is how you distributed that funding.

  17. Abbott is having trouble getting the words out.

    Simple, all we need is better teachers, and all will be well.

    Pyne now on.

  18. Voyager. I just heard that Sporetsbet has already paid out $1.5m and that the Coaltrainaltion is now being compared to Black Caviar. $1.03 lol

    Sportsbet has alp at $12.00, THE WORST ODDS in alp electoral history. I wonder? How Ms Gillard is feeling.

    Seat by seat Stortzbet has Lnp favoured to win by 34 seats. When does a landslide become an avalanche?

    Social media no doubt has played a huge part in this election, but not in the way it was initially projected by alp brains. Rudd was the darling of social media, an expert, a master of tweet world, selfies etc. Perhaps he’d have been better blogging to connect with us? Tweets etc are fine conduit to those under voting age, whereas those above 18 probably prefer to blog.

  19. If we look at Kevin Rudd as a metaphor for labor voters, it becomes very clear by Tony Abbott’s language that he regards all labor voters in the same way, morose, backward thinking, unable to manage their budgets, a drain on the economy, do they ever shut-up, etc etc. Doesn’t he realise that everytime he attacks Kevin Rudd he is attacking all those who have the same values as Kevin Rudd.

    As far as being a good Prime Minister, I cannot find one exemplary thing about him. He cannot string a sentence together, he avoids the hard questions, he relies on scapegoating and personal vindictive attacks on any opposition. In a global forum he would be an embarrassment, he would lock arms with the Americans, which would negatively impact on the inroads made into our partnerships with China and Asia.

    He would become our very own Reagan or Bush! The latter when asked about the crisis in Irak, told the then PM to arrest them all, and when told that the jails were full so impossible to do so, Bush responded with, well kill them!.

  20. …………………..Here are the toplines on the Coalition’s education policy.

    Deliver stable, simple and sustainable funding to all Australian schools.
    Develop ‘best practice’ guidelines to improve admission standards into teaching courses.
    Improve teacher training programmes by ensuring a greater focus on practical skills.
    Work with the states to promote alternative pathways into teaching.
    End federal Labor’s schools takeover and dismantle Labor’s ‘command and control’ features.
    Provide local communities with a greater say by encouraging around 1,500 existing public schools to become independent public schools by 2017. We will establish a $70m ‘Independent Public Schools Fund’ to help this occur.
    Match Commonwealth funding for students with disability for 12 months while a new ‘loading formula’ is developed for these students. We believe students with disabilities deserve better support.
    Protect schools by providing $18m to continue the Secure Schools Programme.
    Restore the focus of science, technology, engineering and mathematics in primary and secondary schools.
    Maintain funding for the ‘Primary Connections: Linking Science with Literacy’ science education programme and the ‘Science by Doing’ programme.
    Assist student literacy in remote areas by investing $22m in flexible teaching methods for local primary schools.
    Improve the take-up of foreign languages with initiatives targeted at foreign language teaching recruitment, teacher training courses, working with the States and trialling programmes from pre-school to years 11 and 12.
    Review the national curriculum and refocus the Australian Curriculum, Assessment and Reporting Authority.
    Improve NAPLAN turnaround times for results.
    Develop a new school leadership programme modelled around MBA-style executive education…………..

  21. Here we go again. This time we’ve been able to identify the black hole prior to the election.

    These are the areas Bowen says are in contention:

    Claiming an additional $2bn in savings from not proceeding with the Low Income Superannuation Contribution. “The correct saving is $1.7 bn across the forward estimates, not the $3.7bn Mr Hockey is claiming.”
    Claiming a saving of $5.2bn from reducing Australian Public Service staffing by 12,000. “The Department of Finance has costed this saving at around $2.8bn, more than $2bn less than Mr Hockey is claiming. The Parliamentary Budget Office has also estimated that more than 20,000 public service jobs would have to be cut to deliver the $5.2bn in saving Mr Hockey is claiming.”
    The vast majority of the $5.1bn claimed save from discontinuing free permits in the Jobs and Competitiveness Fund does not impact the underlying cash balance.
    Only $300 million of the $1.5bn save from discontinuing the Clean Energy Finance Corporation can be claimed as only this portion hits the budget bottom line.
    Bowen says Hockey is performing a “pea and thimble trick” to make its budget add up. (This concerns the shadow treasurer Joe Hockey using accrual accounting as his measure, not the underlying cash balance measure.)

    Finance minister Penny Wong:

    One dollar in every thre……….

  22. Lakita seems to be getting under Abbott;s skin.

    Asked question about his Independent PS concept.

    At last. Thanks Sid.

  23. OK Fed UP. What the LNP is offering at the moment is rhetoric, there is no disclosure on how these ideas will be put into practice, therefore there is no accountability.

    As far as switching over 1500 schools to the Private School System – wanna bet that these schools will be the Catholic Schools? The Private School System currently receives more government funding than government schools, and as someone pointed out, because they spend and update their infrastructure they appear on paper as needing more funding, even though the average cost to parents is now around $20,000 per year per child! The catholics are probably around $2000+ a year and like to consider themselves ‘private’ but don’t get the results that private schools manage.

    It is time that the Labor Party looked at these anomalies and evened out the playing field. Both my children attended Private Schools and I worked in the Principal’s Office so I know what I am talking about.

    You are wrong in thinking that public schools produce the best results, both here and overseas. Just check out the ENTER scores and you will see for yourself. What we call “private” the Brits call “public”.

  24. And as an afterthought, the Catholic schools, if regarded as truly ‘private’ will join in the benefits currently received by other Private Schools.

  25. cassilva48, sadly they include our PAS as we know it.

    The Independent PS has been tried I believe in the UK. Not a success.

    It does not deliver a better standard of eduction.

    The basis of Gonski, is that is fund the independent child, not the education system.

    The countries that do best, only support their PS system.

    Abbott is still talking about, funding schools.

    Gonski does not say, one system is better, over the other.

    We have a PS system, that we can be proud of. We can also do better.

    I have no argument with those that send there children to private schools. That is their choice.

    What I do object to, is seeing the PS system undermined.

    Every child should be funded on a equal playing filed, when it comes to education.

    The private school system have accepted the goals of Gonski.

    Personally, I would like to see government with withdrawal from the private system.

    We all know that is impossible, We has to work within the system, we now have.

  26. cassilva48 you said:

    As far as switching over 1500 schools to the Private School System – wanna bet that these schools will be the Catholic Schools?

    You are mistaken. The Liberal Party from at least the time of Minister David Kemp pushes the notion of Independent Public Schools, much like Charter Schools in the US. It’s a particular affliction that infected the Canberra education bureaucracy and is now spreading across the nation. It’s a blind alley that outsources responsibility away from Ministers to local communities. And saves lots of money, particularly in tough times

    The Private School System currently receives more government funding than government schools

    Not true. Yes it gets more Federal funding but when combined with State funding, the private schools get less government funding than the public (State) schools.

    The catholics are probably around $2000+ a year and like to consider themselves ‘private’ but don’t get the results that private schools manage

    There is so much wrong with that statement, I won’t even bother. It’s simply nonsense.

    and I worked in the Principal’s Office so I know what I am talking about

    Simply, you don’t!

    You are wrong in thinking that public schools produce the best results, both here and overseas.

    The most powerful predictor of educational success is the socio-economic status (SES) location of the parents. Any school’s supposed success can usually be traced to the SES locations of the parent group.

    I’ll leave it at that. Shakes head.

    As for how students from public schools perform at university, can I provide this paper.

  27. Morrison, out again.One would think he would give up. Big announcement by Federal Police, with announcements of arrests, of people smugglers across the country.

    Boats not raised last night.

  28. …………….THE Coalition has been accused of overselling its economic plan by promising a “stimulus” next year from pension increases and tax cuts, as economists warn that it would take much bigger reforms to lift economic growth.

    Experts poured cold water on one of the Coalition’s central claims yesterday after Treasury spokesman Joe Hockey argued the personal benefits flowing next year would act as a stimulus.

    The Coalition has identified $31.6 billion in savings but refused to release the independent findings to back its estimates, relying instead on three advisers to claim its figures are robust.

    The savings plan exempts health and education from changes in a bid to puncture Kevin Rudd’s warnings about the scale of the Coalition savings, countering the Prime Minister’s repeated claim that Tony Abbott plans $70bn in cuts.

    Mr Hockey is counting the paid parental leave scheme as a $1.1bn saving over the next four years, although the full package has a gross cost of $9.8bn and depends on a contentious levy on big business to add to the budget bottom line. He is also recording savings of $1.5bn from scrapping the Clean Energy Finance Corporation and other green schemes, $900m by discontinuing a “loss carry-back” tax break for businesses, $2.9bn from cutting asset write-offs for small business and $5.1bn from discontinuing corporate compensation measures linked to the carbon tax………..

    ‘Essentially, both parties expect to spend nearly $1700bn in the next four years’

  29. I notice, Abbott has little problem making his cuts from the bottom income earners. Is that what he means by making tough decisions.

  30. I think some are verballing me. I did not say that PS provide the best results. We all know that in this country, except for a hand full of PS, the private school’s do.
    The PS kids soon catch up and often beat the private school kids when they get to university. Many studies have come up with this result.

    Public schools have to take all comers. That fact alone make it impossible to get the highest marks.

    What I said, Finland and the leading Asian countries, that are on top of the achievement table, do not have private school systems.

  31. We all know that in this country, except for a hand full of PS, the private school’s (sic) do

    Just because there is a plural – you know the addition of an ‘s’ does not mean you use an apostrophe. Otherwise we would have ‘her’s’, ‘hi’s’ or even ‘.i’s’.

    (An apostrophe is used to signal a contraction. For example ‘it is’ becomes ‘it’s’ and ‘do not’ becomes don’t. Apostrophes are also used to indicate possessives. For example a boy’s hat or a dog’s breakfast. Note also that possessive pronouns such as hers, its, theirs and the like do not need an apostrophe. In fact the use of a possessive can completely change the intended meaning. Its with an apostrophe (it’s) now means it is or it has. Note also that the 50s, the 1970s and the like do not require an apostrophe, unless we are using them as possessives such as the 1970’s era.)

    The influence of a ‘school’ on educational attainment is, at best, only minor. The significant influences can be easily traced to SES backgrounds of the parent groups.

    Many studies have come up with this result.

    Can you provide these ‘many links’. I am genuinely interested to know.

    What I said, Finland and the leading Asian countries, that are on top of the achievement table, do not have private school systems.

    Not true.

    Making wild claims does not advance a discussion.

  32. Voyager. Yajustgottaluagh at that. Shorten is the best on offer? He can’t keep his pecker in his pants. The Murdoch press will have a field day and so they should. Dirty little mysoinist that Shorten is. Maybe the alp will only give him male staffers from here on in hey?

  33. What nothing on policy, costings and why the Liberals would be so good VOYAGER or Summo. Surely your entire mental capacity doesn’t come down to betting odds… oh hang on going back through your posts it does.

    As quoting odds and polls appears to be all you are capable of will you be doing the same when the Abbott government goes downhill? Stupid question, of course you won’t, you will make excuses and lie for them.

    You gotta laugh.

  34. Thanks Summo, you just love putting your neck out there.

    So I gather that trite post means you are not going to tell us why Abbott will be a decent PM and the Liberals a good government?

  35. Col: From your own 2005 article,Mr Dobson said a survey of 12,500 first year Monash University students revealed public school students who left Year 12 with lower marks than their private school rivals overtook them academically at university.
    “Who left Year 12 with lower marks”Q!

    With respect but you are incorrect about the results, viz

    For VCE, the state mean subject study score is 30 out of 50. The following table lists the ’08 mean and median percent of scores of 40 and over. Five school categories – independent, catholic, public, selective and all schools are used for the schools comparison.
    Schools Mean Percent of scores of 40 and over Median Percent of scores of 40 and over
    Selective 39.5% 39.5%
    Independent 12.7% 11.0%
    Catholic 7.5% 6.0%
    Public 4.4% 3.0%
    All Schools 7.1% 5.0%

    As far as funding goes, Private Schools have categories that our government schools do not have, could not even dream of, and therefore cannot claim against. Resident Boarders, Resident Nurses and in some cases Psychologists. During my time at the school, a new Kindle was established, Primary School was completely revamped, as was Library, Science Department, PE Centre. This school had off-campus facilities where students attend for three months, Year 9 students for memory. Since then a second off-campus facility has been bought and established. The Principal was earning close to $1 million, her PA was on something like $100,000.
    As a primary student, my daughter was not only taught how to use a computer, but also how to program a computer, i.e. back then how to key in the codes to do so. I am not so ofay with computers, but she constructed a Roller Coaster using her own math input. Computers were compulsory purchases for parents.
    The curriculum was at least one year advanced on the public system. Of course they get results, they have the best facilities, the best of the best teachers and teaching aids, and parental fees of $20,000. Do you honestly think that people would outlay this sort of money without any form of tertiary guarantee. And as I said these schools cater not only for academic students but also have the finest Arts and Drama courses, Music, and Home Economics. A year 12 Student completing Y12 Accountancy went straight into 2nd Year accountancy at Melbourne. Also a similar arrangement with Homo Eco (hospitality and catering) students.

    I learnt a long time ago, if you can’t beat them, join them. Both girls had ENTER scores of over 90.

  36. cassilva48 private school education is no advantage when they get to university and several studies around the world have found that in many instances public school students do better in tertiary education than private school students.

    Wealthy parents continue to prop up their offspring over and above the money they pay to the education institutions, often with outside assistance in the form of private tutoring and paid mentors.

    A private education in no way means a better outcome in a tertiary education, and I believe the evidence shows the opposite.

  37. Yes Mobius, there are some PS students that have wealthy parents, but many do not. Nowadays it would be impossible for Middle Class families to come up with $20,000 a year, which is why they have become elitist. I paid $5000 a year and yes I had to work to pay the fees. Maybe things have changed but in order to get an offer from Melbourne and Monash Uni one had to have an enter score of at least 90. This doesn’t leave too many places for government school kids, and once upon a time, Uni’s would take token government school kids to appear as not being elitist. , but generally on 2nd 3rd round offers. Also Overseas Private funding has made it extremely difficult for Aussie students by taking away places from Aussies. I could be wrong, but I don’t believe this is dependant upon their ENTER score.

    I hope that Gonski has taken this into account.

    I agree that some PS kids don’t do as well at Uni as they need to learn to stand on their own two feet in the first year, but if they get through this, they generally go on to finish their degree.

    I will see if I can find stats on PS versus non PS graduates.

  38. There are several studies on this cassilva48, and you are right it is harder for public school kids to get into uni, thanks in large part to Howard who made it harder and something never readdressed by Labor, but once in tertiary education publicly educated students do better than privately educated students.

    2005 Study:

    A study of 12,500 first-year students from Melbourne’s Monash University found that students from comprehensive schools outshone those from government selective, independent and Catholic schools.

    The study supports findings of similar studies from Western Australia and Britain and, according to its co-author, Ian Dobson, had implications for the “under-funding” of public schools and private and selective schools’ claims to offer an extra-value education.

    Dr Dobson said private students had an advantage come exam time because of the resources “devoted to their education at secondary school, but this advantage evaporates at university”.

    There are much larger US and German studies around that I sources many years ago in an online forum about education. If I can find them again I will link them but they were very telling.

    For mine if Australia wants to become a smarter nation and produce better leaders, scientists, engineers, doctors etc. then it should be doing everything in its power to get publicly educated students into university, even if that means giving them dispensation for their poorer public education and subsidies to assist them through university.

  39. There have been many studies, reaching back to when I was at university back in the 1980’s. All show, that once kids get to university, the school they attended, does not indicate how well they will do.

    The state schools kids have a habit of rising to the top.

    Not bothering to give links. Just give me one study, that proves what I say is wrong. I have been told that later studies still reveal the same truth.

    I still believe it is time for government to distribute money for education, according to the need of the individual child.

    The type of school should not come into any equation.

    Abbott and Pyne do not promise that.

  40. Today, what happens in the home has more to do with how well the child will do, not the school.

    Sadly, the children do not have these advantages, have no hope under the present funding model.

    Mr Pyne does not believe this,. He believes all children are equal when it comes to education. He does not believe some need more help than others.

  41. It is time to move on from the argument, placing private education over public. Tim,e to treat all as equal. That is what Gonski is about.
    Yes, improving all.

    The nation cannot afford, not to have every child reach their full potential.

    As a child I attended both systems. including boarding. Did not see that much difference in any.

  42. I don’t have a problem with public school kids being given the same opportunities that private school kids have. But saying it and putting it into action are miles apart. Private schools generally do better because they have better Teachers, no getting around it, those that don’t come up to par are politely asked to leave. So how do we now educate the educators?

  43. Private schools generally do better because they have better Teachers

    Nope – that’s just the impression they like to give. Many excellent teachers prefer to teach in the public system because they feel they are actually achieving something worthwhile. You’ll also find that non-performing teachers are moved on very quickly in the state system – generally there’s an oversupply of teaching graduates (although it is cyclical).

    An anecdote to illustrate:

    My niece attended a religious private school for her entire high-school years. She ended up with an OP2 (OP1 is the highest here in Qld). She completed a dual degree in teaching and psychology at university, maintaining a GPA of over 6.

    On completion, she was immediately offered a position in the religious system through which she had come, but chose to enter the state system, where she remains to this day.

    * Disclaimer: I attended a private school for my high-schooling. I chose for both of my children to be educated in the state system…

  44. The problem with many of the private schools is the the students are “molly-coddled” – trained to pass exams rather than to become independent learners; trained to see themselves as better than their peers. This is why the results from the universities reflect that state school students do better on average than private…

  45. Is this what most parents support for the education of their children.

    “……………..Indeed Penrith Christian School advocates the separation of church and state, saying, “Each local community of believers is competent under Christ as Head of the Church to order its life without interference from any civil authority.” Penrith Christian School’s 2012 annual report notes that 66 per cent of its total budget came from government, including state (15 per cent) and commonwealth (41 per cent) recurrent funding and a capital grant (10 per cent). That’s $6.2 million from the government of a total budget of $9.3 million….

    What has occurred since the days of Howard, it the creation of a great number of fundamental religious schools. Not all Christan.

    I must say, s different slant on the separation of church and state. Seem to be saying religion is above state, which has no right to be involved in their lives.

  46. What assessing?

    It is a very big lie, and insulting, that teachers in the state system are inferior.

  47. Yes, and private schools are quick to get rid on any that pull their so called standard down.

    The greatest indicator of how if a child succeeds, can be found more in it’s home life, than the school it attends.

  48. If I had my time over and could afford it, I would send my kids to the best state school I can find, Any money I had to spare would be providing extra activities outside school and quality holidays, in within this country and overseas.

  49. I would send my kids to the best state school I can find

    That’s the key Fu. It’s also a matter of matching the school to the child – my two went to different schools, where they were each enabled to achieve to their potential.

  50. …………….It’s simply my hope that sometime between now and September 7, even as late as polling day itself, people will wake from the delirium of this distemper and have just enough moments of lucidity to see things for what they are and to consider what they are about to do. I hope we don’t allow Prejudice to prevail in this election. The damage it has already done to our social fabric is serious enough, but if Louie makes it to the Lodge and finds there’s no Mortein, he’ll have a field day.

    One can hope.

  51. Fed up stated that “If I had my time over and could afford it, I would send my kids to the best state school I can find, Any money I had to spare would be providing extra activities outside school and quality holidays, in within this country and overseas.”

    So you are promoting the idea that even in the government education system there are some public schools that outrank others? You are right, Macrobertsons, Melbourne High, Balwyn High and Camberwell Girls in Victoria are examples of the ‘better’ public schools, hence why many Chinese families have relocated to the latter three suburbs. But I thought the idea under Gonski was to bring up those lagging public schools to the standard of the better public schools? And I will ask you again how will this come about if the teachers in the public system are just not up to par with their private school colleagues?

    Also, Bacchus, I agree that once public school children get into University they do better in some cases or as good as in other cases, but the problem is that they have to get into University in the first place and without the ENTER score required by our two most prestigious universities they may not get the opportunity.

    Also I believe that academic intelligence can be nurtured regardless of the income of their family, and that all children deserve the same opportunity that private school kids have.

    Also, their is a networking (old school tie) system that operates from the Private Schools to Melbourne Uni and if one is part of this system, employment becomes a recommendation rather than a job interview.

  52. Of course Bacchus you are correct. Extremely bright children will do well no matter what system they are in.

  53. Yes, and there are many private schools that outrank others. What is your point.

    Now look at the fundamental religious schools. What are they really about.
    We had a Principal in the Pennant Hills area, of a state high school that had to withdraw the announcement that religion studies was compulsory. Is this what most parents what.

    Personally, I believe things such as religion should be taught in the home and maybe the church, not in the schools.

    What are the values that Abbott is talking about., Values that I suspect, you are pushing but not saying outright.

    It is the belief of some, that the state system does not impart values to the kids.
    This worries me, as not all share all values.

    Yes, values are important to me, but they are not based on any religious belief.

    Yes, there are good and bad schools everywhere.

    That is what Gonski is about. That is why the child should be funded. Not any school or school system.

    One has to ensure every child’s needs are being met, no matter the system.

  54. Beware, Abbott is not promising Gonski.

    “………………..”It is completely dishonest for Tony Abbott to claim the Coalition has matched the Labor government Gonski funding commitment,” he said.

    Mr Gavrielatos said the Coalition’s four-year funding policy would deliver at least $7 billion less than Labor’s deal.

    Australian Principals Federation president Chris Cotching said the Coalition’s policy had raised concerns that councils would wield too much power at independent state schools.

    He said state school councils, which include parents, should not be allowed to hire and sack principals. ”It will create all sorts of conflicts of interest.”

    NSW Education Minister Adrian Piccoli had already said he was not interested in importing the WA model as there was no evidence it improved student outcomes.

    The Coalition would also review the national curriculum, place a ”new emphasis” on teacher quality and develop ”best practice guidelines to improve admission standards into teaching courses”.

    It promised to deliver NAPLAN results within 12 weeks compared with the current turnaround time of almost five months…………………

    Read more:

    My emphasis.

  55. Even the brightest child deserves their needs met, to reach their full potential.

    Australia needs these kids to be the best they can.

  56. I just heard on the radio of what might be a taste to come under Abbott.

    A NSW public school made Christian study a COMPULSORY subject for Year 7 to 10 students and put it in the curriculum as a test subject. They have since had to withdraw it from the curriculum because of the backlash and the fact it is illegal under the Education ACT for a public education institution to compulsory teach a religion.

    The response back was that this subject was optional like the scripture classes, but after the media contacted the department it was found to be compulsory and the school had to withdraw the subject.

    Reverend David Poole, an Anglican minister who chairs the multi-denominational Pennant Hills and Cherrybrook Christian Education Association, said it had been providing the Christian studies curriculum at Cherrybrook and Pennant Hills high schools since 1984. He agreed it should be clear to parents that they can opt out of the course.

    I want to understand this but have a lot of trouble with it, especially since I was Christian primary and secondary school educated.

    This is a religious movement that espouses a high moral ground and indeed in many cases as being the instigator and keeper morals in society, a fact that is questionable on its own, but time and again lies and deceives to exert its influence on society, going even further in attempting to influence (brainwash) children in their education years to its teachings.

    If it is such a morally high and just religion it would not need to go to these lengths to recruit followers, it should be able to stand up on its own teachings and examples to do that. That it needs to deceive and lie says a lot about it and its failings.

  57. Reverend David Poole, an Anglican minister who chairs the multi-denominational Pennant Hills and Cherrybrook Christian Education Association, said it had been providing the Christian studies curriculum at Cherrybrook and Pennant Hills high schools since 1984. He agreed it should be clear to parents that they can opt out of the course.

    My eldest attended a Catholic School before switching to a Private School in Year 9. She was told that attendance at mass during school hours was purely voluntary. She opted not to attend, and was made to clean the litter from the schoolground! Also the catholics preference catholics only, with the odd Greek Orthodox thrown in, which I always thought was discriminatory. Also catholic students are given preference in their University system and they promote religious studies as a serious year twelve subject, somewhat of a an easy option for the catholic kids.

    And don’t even get me started on the Nuns!

  58. Fed Up wrote: Yes, and there are many private schools that outrank others. What is your point.
    The point is that under Gonski all public schools should be on the same footing. If not and we have some better than others we are back to the same problem of an elitist system within a government system.

  59. Won’t tell you about Mother Pterodactyl (Terasita) in Primary school.

    Mass was compulsory at the secondary college I attended, as were regular Christian religious classes.

  60. Neil, can we really trust “the man”.

    “…………..”We will be a no surprises, no excuses government … You could trust us in opposition and you will be able to trust us in government … This election is all about trust.”
    – Tony Abbott, policy speech, Sunday
    OK, we can’t trust Kevin Rudd. But should we trust Tony Abbott? Could we trust him in opposition? Will we be able to trust him in government?
    Abbott has set the bar high. ”We will be a no surprises, no excuses government,” he declares. He has ruled out any tax increases – although on a rare interview with Fran Kelly on Radio National, he refused to rule out bigger spending cuts than those to be (eventually) outlined in the campaign.
    It’s a message of reassurance, aimed at blunting comparisons with the Howard government and Campbell Newman’s government in Queensland. Howard said he would cut 2500 public service jobs, then wiped out 30,000 of them. Newman promised no public service cuts, then cut 14,000 jobs. With the honourable exception of Ted Baillieu, recent Coalition governments have treated campaign promises as something you use to win elections, then discard once you’re in power………….

    Read more:

    Me thinks not.

  61. if the teachers in the public system are just not up to par with their private school colleagues?

    Still with this unsupported assertion cassilva48 – they’ve certainly got you “sucked in.” 😉 It’s nothing more than rhetoric to get you to spend your hard-earned…

  62. Mobius, that was a state school I mentioned.

    Gonski is about much more than funding. It is about improving the standard of teachers, curriculum and enforcing the standards.

    It is about ensuring the schools have the resources and infrastructure to meet the needs of each child.

    It is about making schools and state governments accountable.

    It is about ensuring the child has the best opportunity to shine, regardless of school or system.

    Abbott is already attacking the better school sites, testing and information each school have to give parents now.

    Mr. Abbott is following Mr. Howard’s attempts, to privatize education.

    It is not about bringing all schools down to the level of poor state schools. It is about rising the bar of all.

    Mr. Pyne detests all that Gillard achieved over six years. Wants to take us back, into the dark past.

  63. Might surprise some, there are very good nuns, and some I would rather avoid.. Not too sure about the brothers.

    What we are talking about, is a school system that meets the needs of the child. Yes, a level playing field.

    Anyone that believes because the pay, and their kids attend a private school, they automatically get a superior eduction, have rocks in their heads.

    It is now, when it comes to Gonski, not about what is the better system. It is about making all systems better.

    The present funding system is broken, expensive, wasteful and does not deliver.

    It is not fair or equitable. Gonski came to this view, after looking at all the evidence and facts.

  64. Yep. all about numbers so they say. Trouble is that Tony’s do not add up.

    “………..Trust is a big call. In my experience, politicians on both sides tend to work out what’s in their interest, then tell us that they’re doing it just for us. What drives them is the politics of the issue, not its merits. Kevin Rudd and Tony Abbott are typical.
    An example: Abbott’s frequent claim, repeated in his policy speech, that Australia has ”20,000 more public servants than in 2007”.
    We have three data sources. The number of public servants is tracked by the Australian Public Service Commission. Between June 2007 and June 2012, it says, public service numbers grew by just 13,156. A third of that growth was in 2007-08, under the Howard government’s last budget. From 2008 to 2012, they grew by just 8840….”

    Read more:

  65. How many boats are we getting a day now. How many sent to Nauru and Mannis Island, asked to be sent home?

    Just asking, as the media does not seem interested at this time.

  66. Yes, growth in Defense, which I assume will decrease as we continue to withdraw from war zones. Then one never knows what will happen in this regard if Bishop and Abbott gets their hands on that tiller.

    “…………The Finance Department estimates that between June 2007 and June 2013 total staff grew by 18,753. But 8150 of that growth was in the military and defence contractors..”

    Read more:

  67. How will getting rid of the carbon tax solve all the problems that face our economt=y, when the reality is, it has has little effect on the economy or cost of living. Seems to me, Abbott has not identified any of the problems, which there are many, that face us. Removing the so called carbon tax and all it contains will only make matters worse.

    “………..Could we trust that? No. Treasury forecast that the carbon tax would raise prices by just 0.7 per cent, and Westpac economists estimate the reality was even less. Inflation in 2012-13 was just its usual level, 2.4 per cent. Most households received more compensation than they paid in extra cost.
    Nothing has worked better for Abbott than his success in persuading Australians that the carbon tax would make them worse off. But it was a phoney scare campaign, nothing more…………

    Read more:

  68. Abbott has recognised this by declaring that, as prime minister, his first overseas trip would be to Jakarta – and it’s obvious why. Whatever new policies the Coalition tries, they will work only if Indonesia co-operates.
    I hope he understands that Indonesia has 10 times Australia’s population, a bigger economy, and a future as one of the key countries in the world. We need it more than it needs us. We can’t tell it what to do.

    Read more:

    I suspect his first overseas job will be to deal with the Syrian problem. That scares the daylights out of me. No time to grow into the job, even if he is capable of doing so.

  69. Abbott now on ABC 24. Seemed to forget where he is today. Said Darwin, but appears to be in Central Queensland.

  70. Being asked questions on foreign affairs. More slogans etc. Support decency. What does that mean. Talking down what influences Australia has on the world stage.

  71. Abbott being questioned on policy. Answers as usual, slogan and motherhood statement. Was asked a direct question, that merited, a straight answer. Did not obliged. Question was not complicated.

  72. As someone who was involved in education at all levels over a working life of more than 35 years, including university teacher education, I might add a few comments. And of course they will be generalisations with all the provisos that infers.

    First, the curriculum provided in State schools is the same as that provided in Private schools, including Catholic schools, with the exception of religious education. Now called the National Curriculum. It has to be the same curriculum in Maths, English, History, Chemistry, Physics and so on because when you think about it, they are subject to the same evaluations on the same subject matter. It would be unthinkable that they would study different subject matter yet face the same evaluation.

    Second, teachers in both the State system and the private system(s) underwent the same professional education. Same universities with much the same curriculum. All teachers (in my home State at least) were subject to the same Registration requirements. Accordingly you will find there is a fair degree of teacher movement between the various systems. In many private schools (and I include catholic schools in the private category because that’s what they are, regardless of what others here might claim), some teachers are paid more, mainly because they are required to perform many extra curricula activities. Extra out of school does not suit many teachers who have families and the like. Also the superannuation arrangements were much better in the State system. Just ask any retired principal of a catholic school. They were way behind.

    For reasons I outline above, it’s simply untrue that one system (with the same curricula) is better that the other or that one system has the better teachers (with the same professional socialisation and registration requirement).

    As any serious study shows, the greatest predictor of a student’s educational success is the SES location of the parents. SES location underpins Gonski recommendations and is the basis on which the My School website is built.

  73. Thanks Col. Time we move on from the useless argument of public versus private. Teachers, in my knowledge move between the two systems.

    I heard Pyne say, state teachers will be forced to do community work. What other profession, , expects one to work for nothing.

    What we should be focusing on, is the best method of funding that creates the superior system, this country is capable of.

    What I like about the Gonski propositions, that they take private versus public out of the argument,

    Second is, that it makes all accountable.

    In country’s that head the table when it comes to education, have strong government education systems.

    Sadly, in this country, that cannot be undone. We have to make the best of what we have.

  74. Pyne has said, that My School web site will be clawed back. Why?

    I have many grand and great grand kids, mostly at state schools. I am amazed at the education that they are getting, and what is expected of them , even in kindy and first. Power Point.

    Yes, and maths and reading, far ahead of what was expected of any of their parents at the same age. Expected in first to give a two minute speech. Topic for one. I had a dream……….. Why it is good to be a child……….. Why are animals important. Yes, this first class, They are expected to research the topic, write it, and then give the speech. What’s more, they are capable of doing so. By the way, this is what some see as a inferior state school. Extra school curriculum is wide. Ranges from choir singing, dancing to many sports, after school each day.

    This is only one school. Can give examples of what others are doing.

    Computer literate, they certainly are. First class, able to Google, use Word and Power Point.

    I have no idea what Pyne is talking about.

    Discipline does not appear to be a problem. Maybe because the kids are kept occupied all day., NO time to get up to mischief. or be bored.

    When problems do arise, they are dealt with quickly and seriously by staff.

  75. cassilva48 said:

    we have some better than others we are back to the same problem of an elitist system within a government system

    Differences in educational attainment can be expected both across systems and within schools because SES location differs across systems (both public and private) and within all schools. It should not be surprising therefore that children who attend Cherbourg State School (School ICSEA value 601 ) do not do as well as those who attend Ascot State School (School ICSEA value 1168 , generally speaking. But it should come as no surprise if a particular child at Cherbourg does better than a particular child at Ascot. And yes I have used extreme examples.

    Socioeconomic Status is a ‘construct’ and has ben constructed in any number of ways over the years. However it usually looks at an individual’s or family’s economic and social position in relation to others, based on income, education, and occupation. (Wiki). How and why is it useful?

    Research indicates that children from low-SES households and communities develop academic skills more slowly compared to children from higher SES groups (Morgan, Farkas, Hillemeier, & Maczuga, 2009


    Initial academic skills are correlated with the home environment, where low literacy environments and chronic stress negatively affect a child’s preacademic skills


    Children from low-SES environments acquire language skills more slowly, exhibit delayed letter recognition and phonological awareness, and are at risk for reading difficulties (Aikens & Barbarin, 2008).

    You can read much more here:

  76. Joined up. Been (for the first time) handing out how-to-vote cards for Swan at the pre-polling site. Don’t really believe in how-to-vote cards and not an ALP member, but desperate times demand changed behaviour.

  77. One for Neil. So many lies, So many perceptions were the opposite is true.

    “………..he opposite is true. Independent audits found minimal waste. The CSIRO found the rate of injuries and deaths fell to a quarter of the rate in the insulation industry during the Howard years. The pink batts were in fact remarkably successful.

    But repetition in an authoritative tone has driven home the ‘truth’ to many.

    Second. They ignore global context.

    For decades now, Australia has been part of the international economy. By pretending it isn’t, misinformation is conveyed without actually lying.

    Professor Ergas in June:

    And until Labor’s growth blockers are well and truly gone, an enduring return to the fiscal strength of the Howard years will remain a dream.

    Growth blockers? Strength of the Howard years?

    It is technically true that growth has been lower under Labor than under the Coalition. But when assessed in context, the dream run has been under Labor.

    Consider economic growth in these 13 comparable countries in calendar 2006:

    Australia 3.1%
    Austria 3.8%
    Denmark 3.1%
    Germany 4.3%
    Hungary 3.8%
    Iceland 3.3%
    Ireland 3.4%
    Italy 3.0%
    Netherlands 3.3%
    Norway 3.3%

    South Korea 4.6%
    Spain 3.9%
    Switzerland 3.5%

    Average 3.57%. Australia was below average.

    These are the members of the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development with 2006 growth between 3.0% and 4.6%.

    Where are they now – growth during calendar 2012?

    Australia 3.1%
    Austria 0.7%
    Denmark -0.9%
    Germany 0.0%
    Hungary -2.7%
    Iceland 1.4%
    Ireland -1.0%
    Italy -2.8%
    Netherlands -1.5%
    Norway 1.9%
    South Korea 1.5%
    Spain -1.9%
    Switzerland 1.4%

    The average, excluding Australia’s aberrant number, is negative 0.33%. Australia is now in a class of its own.

  78. Fifth. They make things up.

    Henry Ergas in June:

    … the Howard government ran structural budget surpluses every year averaging 1.4 per cent of GDP; while every year it has been in office, Labor has run structural deficits averaging 2.8 per cent of GDP.


    … literally all the structural deficits were incurred on Labor’s watch.

    Both untrue. Accurate data shows the average budget surplus for the eleven years of the Howard Government was 0.79%. The average budget deficit during the five years under Labor has been -2.38%.

    A Treasury paper in May showed clearly that Australia’s structural deficit problem began in the Howard years:

    The estimates suggest that the structural budget balance deteriorated from the mid-2000s, with the point estimate of the structural budget balance falling into deficit just prior to the GFC.

    Sixth. If you can’t say something destructive about Labor, don’t say anything……………

  79. Neil, another inconvenient fact.

    Sixth. If you can’t say something destructive about Labor, don’t say anything.

    Hence we find no economic analysis of lower overall taxes. No measurement of the vast increase in the nation’s infrastructure. No exploration of the recent impressive rise in productivity. No appraisal of how the disadvantaged are faring better than ever.

    And absolutely never any research into how Australia’s global ranking lifted during the Whitlam administration, fell under Fraser, rose through the Hawke/Keating period, slipped back badly during the dismal Howard years, but rocketed to the top with Rudd and Gillard.

  80. Could tax funded legal assistance actually save the government money. Could assist the refugee to accept the decisions quickly, and move on to return home.

  81. In response to Col and Fed Up, mention “low socio-economic groups and children in these groups do not do as well in numeracy and literacy”. We can’t teach if these children regularly miss school nor if there parents are unconcerned about an education for them. This is a social problem that will never go away or be addressed by Gonski.
    Col: The ENTER score for teaching was around the 65 mark, don’t know about now. Naturally those with higher ENTER scores, either from Public or Private Schools, one imagine’s, should do better at University level and these are the teachers that are seconded to the private schools because they offer Teachers more career incentives and higher wages, (through out of school curriculum subjects). And Yes, all schools have the same curriculum, but there is nothing to stop Private Schools (or even Public Schools) from “widening and extending the curriculum standards” that must be adhered to.

    Perhaps we should ask ourselves why Men are no longer as keen on Education as a career?

    I agree if we begin by increasing wages, career prospects, higher ENTER scores, and if teaching is put on a par with all the other professions will it promote standards of teaching.

  82. The Carbon Tax relief Tony Abbott is offering (savings of around $500 a year) will be taken away by removing the Family Benefit scheme.

  83. Fed Up: There is already tax funded legal assistance which Mokbel and all the other crims use, after the DPP remove all their assets from them or they declare themselves bankrupt, and which is no doubt being used in the Appeals of Asylum seekers.

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