That’s a load of rubbish, Andrew

Following the drowning of four asylum seekers off Christmas Island yesterday, Andrew Bolt had the audacity to comment that:

. . . if these people drowned under Tony Abbott, especially after a boat turnaround, imagine the media uproar. Yet Rudd’s policy has contributed to the deaths of more than 1000 people and a complicit media lays no blame at all.

Well, that’s a load of rubbish, Andrew.

Why?

Because only a small section of our community are despicable enough to attempt to draw political mileage out of the deaths of innocent people. Most people are appalled at these deaths, whether they be Rudd supporters, Abbott supporters, or vote for Daffy Duck. And most people are intelligent or realistic enough to accept that no one person can be held responsible for these deaths.

You do not fall into that category.

The condemnation you received over your comment in 2010 that the Gillard Government had blood on its hands after drownings off Christmas Island have done little to thwart your spring-heeled eagerness to use deaths for political mileage. I’ve not encountered any other journalist so keen to do so.

No, the media isn’t complicit like you say it is. It’s just that even they have some morals.

88 comments on “That’s a load of rubbish, Andrew

  1. . . . if these people drowned under Tony Abbott, especially after a boat turnaround,

    bolts just raised the bar on ‘teh stoopid’

    Will akers attempt the jump?

  2. So Bolt it’s preferable they die in their country of origin instead of seeking the slightest hope they can have a chance of living somewhere else?

    And think on this. If after all these deaths, that occurred under Howard as well, they are still coming, just what deterrent will work, certainly not Abbott’s failed before it’s started turn back the boats.

  3. Typically Disgusting Comment by this Poor copy of a decent Human Being,, Is’nt Bolt a German Name , Utterely Pathetic Person Shame Shame Shame

  4. Does bolt anywhere clarify why he is not in favour of the Malaysia solution, yet appears to be quite happy with sending boats back to Indonesia?

    After all, neither country has signed the refugee convention.

  5. We may be the lucky country, but it seems we still have to put up with the nuts and bolts in our community.

    We have some brilliant Journos in Australia, so lets all try and take advantage of their unbiased work, and ignore the biased element.

    And with an election coming, don’t be swayed by the rubbish Journos, but instead, consider for yourself, “On the international stage, do I want Abbott or Rudd speaking on Australia’s behalf ??”

    Which one projects the best “statesman” like image ?

    Which one is the most “professional”?

    And as you prepare to fill out your ballot slip, ask yourself, “Would I buy a used car from this person?”

    Cheers

    Mick http://cartoonmick.wordpress.com/editorial-political/

  6. Just to show what a nasty mean country we have become, given voice and action by Howard.

    Tim Costello has just got back from the massive city size refugee camp springing up on the border with Syria in Jordan. Jordan is doing all it can to help the refugees whose numbers are approaching 1.5 million, and we complain about a few thousand.

    Costello visited one Jordanian woman’s home who was housing a family of Syrian refugees. This woman is the mother of eight, four sets of twins and her husband is dying of a chronic condition, yet even though she is struggling she took in a refugee family. She said to Costello that even though she doesn’t have much and is struggling the refugees have less and are struggling more.

    There will be thousands if not tens of thousands of stories like this around the world but what is Australia’s story, children behind barbed wire indefinitely and refugees punished by isolation for seeking to not be persecuted or die.

  7. Another wowser thread, I see.

    Pretty low form, in my opinion by Mr Bolt…seems to infect all sides.

    I remember during the Victorian fires, Bob Brown was blaming global warming whilst the bodies were still smouldering. Now, that is class.

    And how many times did Howard get accused of having blood on his hands?

    Just think, if these rantings received the publicity they deserve, you would have nothing to fuel your imaginary moral outrage.

  8. YES I would blame Tony Abbott if/when his policy of turning the boats around results in deaths at sea.

    1. Abbott’s pollicy would be deliberate rather than accidental – Abbott has been warned by officials including the esteemed Admiral Barrie that his policy is likely to have catastrophic results.

    2. As well as military officials Abbott has been warned by Indonesian officals.

    Now having received specific warnings and if one went ahead with it in spite of these warnings, then one must bear the responsibility for that which ensues. Abbott’s policy is akin to drink driving – one can warn one’s friend not to do so, and that person is responsible. However, if one jumps into the car oneself while ignoring warnings from friends, then one is responsible oneself.

    I can see the difference..but can Andrew Bolt?

  9. Meanwhile another boat is sinking.

    Then why won’t the opposition give the Malysian solution a go?

    Do you think they should?

    Do you agree with the ‘turn back the boats’ call?

  10. rudd seems to get a dream run from journos all the leaks he gave during the Julia years are paying off he should be condemned over the boats issue and at the very least apologise

  11. Tommy, keeping the cards close to my chest.

    The Commissioner or whatever title of Christmas Island made a cutting comment.

    It concerned the people that drowned but no names were released. Surely we can at least put names to these people as a matter of decency or are they well guarded statistics?

    Wouldn’t accept a cucumber sandwich by hand from anyone of either side.

  12. 1. Abbott’s pollicy would be deliberate rather than accidental – Abbott has been warned by officials including the esteemed Admiral Barrie that his policy is likely to have catastrophic results.

    There were people who warned Rudd what would happen if the Pacific Solution was abolished.

    And i agree with Bolt. You lot don’t want to admit it however. If Howard overturned a policy that Labor had started and terrible results occurred, of course ALP supporters would blame Howard. It is in your nature.

    But you cannot admit it because you think you are not that low as people. But you are.

  13. keeping the cards close to my chest.

    If you don’t have the guts to put forward an opinion, perhaps you should refrain from passing off cheap shots. Its not a very good look

  14. There were people who warned Rudd what would happen if the Pacific Solution was abolished.

    There were people who warned howard that the Pacific Solution could never work in the long run

  15. Howard’s Pacific Solution and the excising of Australian territory only worked because it denied people the right of appeal, the right of access to Australian courts. Two High Court rulings ended that.

  16. Two High Court rulings ended that.

    sssshhh Min, don’t tell he likes of bolt, it will ruin all their fun

  17. Neil, sorry *wrong*….

    Admiral Barrie has criticised Abbott consistently..

    Former Defence Force chief Chris Barrie has warned against trying to force asylum seeker boats to turn back to Indonesia,…

    And more recently…

    Former chief of the Defence Force, Chris Barrie, says the Federal Opposition’s plan to turn around asylum seeker boats in international waters could commit the Navy to an act of piracy….

  18. By the way have the Liberals added words to their tow back the boats policy?

    Originally I thought it was just, “If safe to do so”, which in all cases it won’t be, but the words I saw stated are to the tune of, “If safe to do so and if the country takes back the boats.”

    Also read a piece from the Lawyers Alliance of Australia that was interesting. Apart from breaking several international laws to which Australia is signatory, if Abbot does manage the unlikely of successfully turning back a boat and any of the refugees on that boat at some time in the future turn out to be genuine, then it opens the Australian government to litigation from those refugees.

  19. This argument is so wrong. We want more young people here to help with our aging population. That was the point of the “baby bonus” and it also is a partial focus of our immigration program. There are millions of young people who want to come to escape the horror of war, persecution and intolerance yet we want to punish them for trying to start a new life in safety.

    Even if they are “economic refugees”, I too would look for a place where I could raise my family with hope for the future. I cannot understand why we are demonising these people and treating them like criminals.

    We have not processed any refugee applications since last August yet people tell them to take a number, form an orderly queue, and wait your turn. It would be FAR cheaper to fly them here, provide them some form of work/education while processing them quickly, and then allow them to start contributing in a positive way to our society.

    Could we drop the adjectives and remember that they are people?

  20. Mobius, and who can forget the follow up question asked by God only knows which journo (his name has probably been buried for *gasp* asking Abbott a question)..this being, and how will the Navy know when it’s safe to do so? And Abbott’s answer was, I’ll tell them when it’s safe to do so. Reply: How? Ans from Abbott: I’ll have a phone on every patrol boat and tell the Navy when it’s safe to do so.

    And no I’m not kidding…that’s what Abbott said.

  21. Kaye, unfortunately there is a queue consisting of millions, all deserving, all fleeing persecution. The problem as always is to try to discern who, when and how.

  22. Min these are the initial questions the Lawyer’s Alliance have asked of Abbott:

    …here are some questions for consideration:

    • Does he intend to leave boats in international waters after towing them to that position?

    • Will he provide food and water to asylum seekers on the boats while towing them?

    • Will he acknowledge that a ‘duty of care’ is activated once towing commences and when would such a duty end?

    • Maritime officers already have power to restrain people. What if the boat starts to make its way back to Australia? Will the navy then remove its engine?

    • Does Mr Abbott intend to make agreements with neighbouring countries regarding the towing of boats?

    • How is the international community likely to view such actions?

    • Might such action constitute unlawful detention?

    • Human Rights Watch has recently criticised the Myanmar government for ‘ethnic cleansing’ of Rohingya Muslims from Burma. Is Mr Abbott aware of the international criticism directed at Thailand when it towed boats into international waters, filled with Rohingya Muslims from Myanmar/Burma, many of whom died?

    • What does he intend to happen to boats that begin to disintegrate or break down?

    • What does he think should happen if people start jumping off boats, as happened this year in Thailand, when the Thai navy began towing them into international waters?

    • What specific actions will officers be authorised to take in instances where any of the above happens? For example, if people jump off the boat, does Mr Abbott intend to authorise officers to save or restrain them?

    • What checks and balances does Mr Abbott intend to put in place to ensure that authorities towing the boats are publicly accountable?

    • What cost to Australia is estimated by Mr Abbott for the ‘tow back’ policy?
    – See more at: http://lawyersalliance.com.au/media-current-affairs/clarity-needed-over-abbotts-turn-back-boats-policy/#sthash.S6GGLcnB.dpuf

  23. I agree Min. It is a growing problem and I know there is not a simple solution.

    Perhaps what I am hoping for is a change of how we view the situation. If policy was formed around “how can we best help these people” would be a good start.

    That may entail increased foreign aid to the countries of origin, or sponsored programs there to provide shelter and clean water, and a presence to help protect human rights.

    It may entail helping the transit countries to provide better facilities for those awaiting processing which must be done faster and with more communication to individuals about their application.

    Perhaps we can find some outback towns that would welcome the injection of new people if we helped provide needed infrastructure. Where possible, we could employ those awaiting processing in building and contributing to the community.

    I just want a change of the debate. Mum always used that quote…if you aren’t part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Surely we are smart enough to think of a humane way to help without causing our economy and social structure to collapse as the scaremongers would have us believe.

  24. The boats will never stop – even ignoring existing conflicts, immense populations are under imminent threat of losing the land they live on to the rising oceans.

    Are those fleeing the inundation of their homes and farmlands as sea levels inexorably rise, to be denied refuge, to be classed as “economic” migrants ineligible for asylum ?

    I agree with Kaye, that

    policy was formed around “how can we best help these people” would be a good start.

    .

    I have lived through waves of foreign arrivals to our shores, all with similar complaints being made in disparagement of their race/cultural habits. They are now an integral part of our country, and we are all the better, enriched by their many contributions.

    These new arrivals should be welcomed, with “settling in” assistance as appropriate.
    Such an approach would at least, provide Australia with credibility in arguing for regional solutions to the problems of dislocated populations and their movements.

  25. What pterosaur1 said. Sensible. It’s about time we grew up and started talking about the existing ‘reality’ and appropriate responses

  26. Wednesday nights Lateline with Tony Jones in the seat followed Bolt’s line of questioning with Elbo, practically verbatim, with the number of deaths added up.

    WTF !

  27. If people think we have a problem with refugees now, wait till climate change really starts to kick in with rising sea levels, disruption of water in Asia, etc etc, we aint seen nothing yet!! I do wonder about phoney Tony’s conservative mindset and his lack of ability to think creatively beyond simple slogans.

  28. “So Bolt it’s preferable they die in their country of origin instead of seeking the slightest hope they can have a chance of living somewhere else?”

    Adrian you have been wrong on just about every detail of this fiasco from day one…While I think Bolt is an idiot for politicizing this everybody knows both sides are to blame for this shamble/travesty. We have people dying in the desert here for the same reasons you have people drowning; you think Mexico is a safer place to live?

    Migrants throughout history are motivated to migrate by the same universal incentives. You have labor that still has its head in the sand about “why they come” preferring to hide behind International laws while they dilly dally and the Liberals who don’t have to really worry about anything because they are not in position to do anything but irritate the opposition.

    Wake up chap; it isn’t mostly for safety these people take a trip, as countless reports and circumstantial evidence has shown. It is mainly economic and always has been…One does not flee for safety PAST other signers of the UN charter at a cost of 14,000 dollars a head for “greener” pastures if indeed safety first is their primary concern. You can keep parroting your garbage all you want as Bolt does his and like him you simply look ignorant. You are both party hacks just on opposite sides of the isle.

    I have said many times before; you have a global movement of people, unprecedented in human history, from places of poverty to places of wealth using any guise or tenant they can to their benefit; it’s called Human Nature….Whether it’s a visa overstayed (student, temp worker, tourist etc), illegal arrival or whatever. What is undeniable is this fiasco on the high seas continues because your leaders are incompetent on both sides and there are plenty of people like yourself (supporters) who refuse to admit they may have it wrong too; you will never be able to solve the problem because you don’t even know the equation and the variables to begin with as is evident by your comment. So ridiculous….

  29. Thank you pterosaur1 and Migs; you have finally “got it”…Now educate your less intuitive members…

    Pterosour1,

    You don’t need to use a boogey-man like climate change, war or whatever…It is called POVERTY and people with means or the ability to recognize they can change their fate will as they always have! We walked out of Africa and kept walking for a reason. This is not complicated…

  30. Perhaps it might also have to do with unprecedented, exponential POPULATION growth and all that entails? Hmm?

  31. Possibly the best thing we could do to stop them,passing by a bunch of safe countries and heading straight here is to withdraw from the 1953 Convention. That and re-instituting TPVs.

  32. The 1,000 people is liberal party propanganda. Just 35 people in 15 years have drowned near or in our shores and all those deaths could have been avoided as both coroners inquests found.

    While 1,000 refugees have drowned somewhere on the way here, some close to Malaysia, most close to INdonesia and the rest drowning because we don’t send out search parties, 135 million kids under 5 have starved to death and Bolt has never said a solitary word about them.

    When are the useless pricks in parliament and many in the media going to realise the refugee convention is not our toy, it does not have an on/off button and it is the law.

  33. Marilyn, he wants to stop the boats but not the people. He’s quite happy for them to arrive here by other means. Conclusion? Boats are his political tool.

  34. Sparta gets it wrong again.

    Can you list the safe countries that these refugees pass up in order to get to Western countries and can you tell us where the great majority, by a huge margin, of the refugees are?

    Can you tell us why the movement of refugees increases in response to wars and declines in times of relative peace? For example during the height of the Iraq invasion Australia saw an increase in Iraqi refugees, currently it’s Syrians.

    Why are Vietnamese boat people increasing many fold over the last few years? The country is far more prosperous than it has been for a long time.

    Strange that the right have been going on about how globalisation and the market have decreased poverty world wide and increased prosperity, yet refugee movements have vastly increased globally.

    Also can you please give us the stats for the percentage that are economic refugees as opposed to those fleeing war and persecution?

  35. Even if they are “economic refugees”, I too would look for a place where I could raise my family with hope for the future”

    Yes that is the main reason boat people come. Same reason the Mexicans go to Texas. Better to clean floors in California than to live in a Mexican slum. But we have immigration programs for people who want to come here for a better life and millions have come that way.

    Our humanitarian program should only be for people fleeing persecution.

    The fact is there are 20 million refugees who want to come here and at least 1 billion other people who just want to come here for a better life for their family.

  36. Not wanting to get into another spat with you scaper as you yet again attempt a gotcha and get it wrong.

    You really have turned into a narrow minded petty person. It’s such a pity.

  37. This reminds me of the Liberal politician who tried to make political mileage from the Granville Rail Disaster.
    The argument was that the public had a lower body count during periods of conservative rule.
    It was seen by the public and the media as an appaling remark then but now they have no problem with making such comparisons, as can also be seen from placing blame over the Pink Batts deaths.
    There is nothing worse than the ethical bejaviour of the neo-con/media alliance when they thing they are on the ropes.

  38. Maybe you should do a bit of research before making false statements.

    Google is a good starting point or are you too narrow minded to fact check in case it goes against your ingrained bias?

  39. scaper maybe you should read what’s written instead of trying to do a gotcha and getting it wrong like you did yesterday and now again today.

    Spat over so thread can get back on track.

  40. If there was an increase in Syrians why didn’t they even get a mention in the graphic? I suggest if there is any then they would be included in ‘others’ as the number must be insignificant.

  41. Looks like Labor was warned but took no notice. I think some of the success of the Pacific Solution was people knew Howard was a strong leader. Whereas they know Rudd and Gillard are wimps. Nobody is scared of a wimp. And you need the whole combination of deterrents for the Pacific Solution to work.

    http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/immigration-officials-warned-of-increase-in-asylum-seekers-after-overseas-detention-centre-was-abandoned/story-e6frg12c-1225958837678

    LABOR was warned three months after it came to power that closing the Nauru detention centre would cause a jump in people smuggling.”

  42. @ Sparta
    CC via AGW is reality.
    Demonstrably more so than any assertions made on the basis of “human nature”.

  43. If this keeps up we are going to lose our AAA again

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/breaking-news/aofm-sells-1b-of-treasury-notes/story-e6frg90f-1226681265208

    THE Australian government has sold $1 billion of Treasury notes that mature on October 25, 2013.

    The Australian Office of Financial Management (AOFM), which conducts bond auctions on behalf of the government, said the notes were sold for a weighted average yield of 2.4824 per cent.

    The sale attracted bids totalling $6.266 billion, giving a coverage ratio of 6.2″

  44. Expect more of the same but they have got it covered. They will simply borrow more via smaller tranches that mature in over ten years time to cover the short term borrowings…and interest of course.

    http://www.aofm.gov.au/

    Been watching the future being borrowed upon for three years now. Last week was a borrowing record, near $5B!

  45. BSA Bob tried but as usual has been unable to resist the bait, & will now expound on his hobbyhorse.
    Why is it never, ever, ever pointed out that Mr Abbott & other coalition members at the time weren’t actually around in Parliament to vote down the dismantling of Howard’s legislation? Rather cutting & running on the orders of Gen. Turnbull in order to avoid the embarrassing spectacle of some of their back benchers actually using their much vaunted right to “cross the floor” & vote with Labor to dismantle the Pacific Solution legislation?
    Along with the unremarked complete reversal of their climate change policies, this must be the greatest leg up of many the media’s given the coalition.

    wobbles @ 8.39
    I remember that line about Granville. I think it got short shrift from the public but whoever said it would’ve been praised for trying.

  46. Bolt is so cruel. He attacks Aborigines and asylum seekers: the two most vulnerable people in Australia.

  47. Bolt doesn’t give a fig about saving refugee lives. He is only interested in political point scoring.

  48. A people smuggler in Indonesia has told the ABC that the number of asylum seekers is increasing, they will keep sending the boats and there is nothing any Australian government can do to stop them.

    On one positive the Indonesian government has signed a communique to deny Iranians entry into Indonesia. As they make up a large section of the refugees this should ease, but in now way stop, the number of asylum seekers getting on boats.

  49. Racheel, it’s all about envy – the thought that someone different is getting *more than* one’s own self. If you look at the rhetoric from the rednecks and from Bolt it’s all about someone getting advantage of some kind due to their NOT being a white, male, anglo and Christian. Bolt probably isn’t game to try the same sort of stunt against gays and lesbians.

  50. Meanwhile, refugees will continue to used as political footballs in the absence of a bipartisan approach by all parties.

  51. in the absence of a bipartisan approach by all parties.

    Yes. Let’s just hope that Labor can get a majority in the next Parliament, and can implement their desired policy, a framework working with our regional neighbours, instead of this blustering and pontificating about like the libs are doing.

  52. With you there Tom. It seems that having a majority is the only way to do so, unless the Liars have a radical change of personnel or heart. As they have no heart, personnel it is.

  53. “Demonstrably more so than any assertions made on the basis of “human nature”.”

    Really, so your saying you can predict climate better than human behavior? LMAO…RESPECTFULLY disagree there big guy; especially in terms of this discussion…

  54. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/we-need-to-overhaul-refugee-convention/story-fnhulouu-1226681624285

    There is virtually nobody or no one outside of the West that can not make a claim under current law (war or not). It is written to do just that…Why is that a problem you may ask? It lends itself to rampant fraud! It is a ridiculous piece of legislation that has far exceeded it’s use…It is International black mail at its worse using human beings as the fodder…The convention must go as I have said many times before…It should be up to each country to decide for themselves, in the interest of their citizens etc…Not some piece of paper…

  55. @Sparta

    ‘Human Nature” is not measurable.
    Nor is it defined, or quantifiable.

    Any claims/assertions using such a nebulous basis are automatically discounted until these factors are meaningfully addressed. Attempts to mount any argument on such an ill defined basis have no credibility, given the diffuse nature of the concept of “human nature” and the reality of its infinite variability,

    The reality of CC as a consequence of AGW is measurable, quantifiable, consistent with current understandings of the nature of reality, in accord with the mechanisms of science, and with measurements/data collected being consistent with modelled predictions and theory. Thus “demonstrable”.

    In terms of this discussion, my point remains (that millions will be on the move as AGW bites). “Stopping the boats” will never be a viable option in reducing or managing such movements in the face of this reality..

    Respectfully speaking, I’ll ignore the strawman you posted @12:47 AM,

    Really, so your saying you can predict climate better than human behavior?

    as not meriting a reply..

  56. as not meriting a reply..

    Although, it must be said, as far as non-replies go, that was a great reply 😉

  57. It is International black mail at its worse using human beings as the fodder…

    What human beings would those be, Sparta? Not the poor sods fleeing oppression, civil unrest & war, I take it. More like jolly middle class morons like Morriscum and his Tea Party mates.

  58. ‘Human Nature” is not measurable.
    Nor is it defined, or quantifiable.

    Oh FFS; Why are you under that impression? We can’t even do this with AGW directly as you know and rely on “computer models” so your point is rather moot. Do you love your family, prove it? Are humans motivated by money, power, greed; prove it, measurably, quantifiably then. How about “observation, historical record” as is done in the realm of many disciplines; psychology, sociology, anthropology etc. You know the “NATURAL Sciences”. I think you miss the point completely chap.

    In terms of AGW as I said before and is patently obvious one does not need AGW to enter into this discussion as human beings have been migrating for centuries before said AGW theory was proposed. Has climate been a factor in said migrations of the past; sure as has war, disease, famine, poverty, economic incentives etc…One could make the argument that unstable climate has been an impetus of mass human migration since our beginning but you are missing the point of my comment.

    If there was no UN Charter for example, would Australia still be dealing with “boat people”? Independent of AGW, War etc; probably not is my whole point. Although there is no way to say one way or another I doubt if people were legitimately fleeing for their lives (for whatever reason), which is always the assertion of some here and not other “incentives”; they would probably be doing so in a fashion more in line with the historical context of human migration in the past…There are plenty of these examples playing out right now in Africa for example and in that context one clearly sees that when people are genuinely “just running for their lives” they tend to go in any direction that offers safe harbor which is clearly not the case here…I would suggest that taking your family, meager possessions, finding a smuggler, route, booking passage etc is not something you do when you fear for your life, are horribly desperate. I am sorry you completely “missed the boat” here….

    “as not meriting a reply..”

    Respectfully, suit yourself. I have always found people that use claims of “straw man or red herring” a bit lacking in the frontal lobe…The question raised that warranted your claim of “straw man” is better ignored if you wish then claiming “straw man” in my humble opinion because anybody can give a reasonable response if they know what they are talking about or desire too…It simply makes you look “young or naive”….

    From Wiki:

    “A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position.”

    Your position:

    “Any claims/assertions using such a nebulous basis are automatically discounted until these factors are meaningfully addressed. Attempts to mount any argument on such an ill defined basis have no credibility, given the diffuse nature of the concept of “human nature” and the reality of its infinite variability”
    “Human Nature” is not measurable.

    Nor is it defined, or quantifiable.”

    Says you! HAHAHAH

    You see, you put up the “straw man” instead of attempting to explain; you made an assertion, that which I easily put to sleep. Unless you assert now that those disciplines mentioned are “bogus” or the whole concept of “human nature” because you simply assert it? Please, if you are going to use said accusations understand what they mean.

    Thank you lemming Tom…heheheheh

  59. @Sparta

    Nor is it defined, or quantifiable.”

    Says you! HAHAHAH

    If you find it so amusing, perhaps you could enlighten me with a definition? a measurement allowing comparisons between differing “natures”. ❓

    I think not

    @Sparta.

    I have always found people that use claims of “straw man or red herring” a bit lacking in the frontal lobe

    I have always found people that use claims of “straw man or red herring” arguments a bit lacking in the frontal lobe.
    There, fixed for you. 🙄

    Definition is important as it provides limits to that which it describes, thus enabling communication. “Human nature” precisely because it defies such limitation remains at best, a nebulous concept, and no basis for any rational argument.

    Following definition, quantification(measurement) may be derived, which allows for meaningful comparisons to be drawn wrt the phenomenon being studied.

  60. The concept of ‘human nature’ is indeed a ‘slippery’ one; almost impossible to define in terms of ‘necessary’ and ‘sufficient’ conditions. People (mostly) attribute behaviours to ‘human nature’ when they are in fact social/cultural ‘learned’ behaviours. Most people can’t rise above their own ethnocentric world view.

    ‘Human nature’ is probably the most difficult concept in the social sciences and to use it ‘undefined’ is certainly not useful.

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