The elder statesman

Like any young Labor voter in the 1970s I despised Malcolm Fraser with a passion for his role in the dismissal of the Whitlam Government, and I continued to have contempt for the man throughout his political life.

One of us has changed for I now quite admire him, as do many old Labor people. Or maybe none of us have changed; the changes being the state of politics that surround us and after all these years we have found some middle ground.

Malcolm Fraser represented a Liberal Party that bears no resemblance to the one he proudly led. He now views it as being a party that has drifted so far to the right it is no longer recognisable to the values he once stood for. On that, I agree with him. Almost eight years ago he:

. . . delivered his most scathing critique of the party he led to three federal election victories, and confessed that he had thought seriously about quitting after half a century of membership.

Under John Howard, he said, it had become a party of ”fear and reaction”, conservative not liberal, and willing to play the race card and discriminate against asylum seekers.

He quit the party in May, 2010.

As Prime Minister in the 1970s Malcolm Fraser opened the doors to a quarter of a million Vietnamese refugees and papers released under the 30 year rule showed that Howard bitterly opposed that. So did I, I’m sad to admit, but that’s how many of us felt back then. I became more tolerant, understanding and accepting of refugees by the 1990s while Howard never did. We all know he turned the 2001 election battle into one of race and where xenophobia dominated the political landscape. It’s easy to see why Fraser didn’t like the way the party had become under Howard.

Learning that he’d stood by his principles for humanitarian reasons was the second thing he’d done which earned some admiration.

The first was during the Rwanda crisis in the 1990s when he was the face of CARE Australia. I have since learned that:

In 1987 Mr Fraser formed CARE Australia as part of the international CARE network of humanitarian aid organisations. He was chairman from 1987 until 2002. He was also president of CARE International from 1990 to 1995, and its vice president for the next four years.

He was, then, more than just the face of CARE Australia. He was its heart.

The same article (above link) notes that within two years of leaving Parliament in 1983 he had become a key figure in Australia’s international and diplomatic relations.

Notably, he was Co-Chairman of the Commonwealth Committee of Eminent Persons against Apartheid which was formed to encourage a process of dialogue and reform in South Africa in 1985-86 and in 1989 he was appointed Chairman of the United Nations Committee on African Commodity Problems which reported to Secretary-General de Cuellar in June 1990.

Compare that to the next Liberal prime Minister, who upon leaving Parliament wasted no time in pursuing a post-political career of self-promotion and self-indulgence.

In an interview he gave with Professor Robyn Eckersley in late 2011 Fraser again lamented how the Liberal Party had ‘lost its way‘ and was particularly scathing of its current leader, Tony Abbott.

Eckersley: You recently declared that Tony Abbott is a dangerous politician, perhaps one of the most dangerous in Australia’s history. What did you mean by that?

Fraser: [He’s] unpredictable. He says what jumps into his mind. Let me give an example. When farmers were complaining about miners searching for coal or for gas on farms, he spoke almost as though he did not understand that under British law, Australian law, the Crown owns the minerals and the wealth under the ground and if a mining company can get a right to mine or investigate over your farm then that has always been in a sense too bad for the farmer.

You can try and oppose it but that is what the law has always said. Now Tony, in encouraging the farmers, really spoke as though he was quite unaware of that current and historic position. But it was expedient at the time to get the support of the farmers. It might be a bit harsh but I think in a month’s time he will have forgotten he said that.

Eckersley: Is the unpredictability the main reason you called him dangerous?

Fraser: The unpredictability.

Eckersley: Any other reasons?

Fraser: I think the whole party is very much on the extreme right. I happen to believe that the Minchin/Abbott duo to get rid of Malcolm Turnbull – who had actually won a couple of party room votes, even though narrowly – but then they said we’re not going to work with you anyway, we’ll walk out.

The minority was saying we won’t accept the majority and the majority just accepted it. It was an extraordinary occurrence and I believe that rather than being on the emissions trading scheme, it was because Malcolm was showing some significant signs of being a liberal and they didn’t want a liberal in charge of the Liberal party, they wanted a conservative in charge of the Liberal party.

I would encourage you all to read that interview. It not only shows that Fraser hasn’t changed but how much the Liberal Party has. It also shows that the party lost a man who understands the important issues of today, such as climate change, humanitarian issues, Indigenous issues and the Murdoch domination of our media and how it should be addressed. The Liberal Party today has no interest in any of those key problems.

No wonder they lost their elder statesman.

 

163 comments on “The elder statesman

  1. Migs, I believe that it is Mr. Fraser that might have mellowed and changed with age.

    One could find many similaries with the behaviour of Mr. Fraser back in the seventies and that of Mr. Abbott now.

    Mr, Fraser, I believe did attempt to repair some of the harm done to the system then, especially when he changed the law, that states had to replace a retiring Senator with one from the same party.

    It is hard to imagine when one reads history, that at the time the Whitlam government was perceive by many with hate and distrust.

    The behaviour of Mr. Abbott treartment of this government is similar. Mr. Abbott has not been as successful. They just do not have the talent.

  2. “Can you believe this? The new post I’m writing is not about Tony Abbott”

    But good to see that even in an article on Fraser you have a special link to Abbott.

    “Eckersley: You recently declared that Tony Abbott is a dangerous politician, perhaps one of the most dangerous in Australia’s history. “

  3. Fraser is still Fraser. He’s just doing the ‘old bugger’s’ ‘having a bet each way’ as he sees the final days approaching. I have zero sympatico with the man and he has an equally zero credibility with me. I went through the Gough debacle and the NO Coalition’s behaviour with the current government reminds me of the baseness and immorality of Fraser and his ilk then. Nothing has really changed in the LNP from then to now. Just become more Americanised and ultra-conservative extremist.
    Disgraceful bunch all round!

  4. WHY doesn’t the Liberal Party dump its deeply unpopular leader, Tony Abbott, and replace him with the more popular (according to the polls, anyway) Malcolm Turnbull? This is the question I most often get asked at business forums or when chatting to engaged voters while discussing the Liberal Party.

    The simple answer is Turnbull’s popularity doesn’t extend to the Liberal parliamentary caucus, where the numbers decide the leader. Within that collective he is anything but popular, not unlike the way the Labor caucus views Kevin Rudd. The important difference is the Liberal Party continues to dominate Labor in the polls, and a conservative party such as the Liberals will not want to change leaders in an election year even if the polls go bad.

    And off the back of Turnbull’s decision to push hard for Rudd’s emissions trading scheme at the end of 2009, the bulk of ordinary Liberal Party members in the branches also are uncertain about Turnbull. With members playing a key role in preselections (unlike goings-on in the Labor Party) few elected MPs will be inclined to switch to Turnbull in defiance of their supporters.

    The more complex reason the Liberal Party will not turn to Turnbull ahead of the next election, no matter how poor Abbott’s personal numbers get, or even if the Coalition’s primary vote sags, comes down to its very different political culture compared to Labor. Leaders get the benefit of the doubt in the Liberal Party, illustrated by a core group in the partyroom that locks in behind the leader, any leader, and does not contemplate shifting.

    It is a pick and stick philosophy.

    History tells us removing conservative leaders via a challenge is hard to do even when the incumbent’s deficiencies are obvious……….

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/why-the-libs-wont-change-their-chief/story-fn53lw5p-1226551500008

  5. “Leaders get the benefit of the doubt in the Liberal Party, illustrated by a core group in the partyroom that locks in behind the leader, any leader, and does not contemplate shifting.”

    Well there’s a contradiction right there as Turnbull never got the benefit of the doubt as a core group in the party room undermined their leader Turnbull at every turn and not only contemplated shifting but did so in a very underhanded way.

    What Onselen should have said that a core group of hard right wing radicals in the Liberal party will lock behind a far right wingnut leader and the more gormless the better as the easier they are to manipulate.

    Just more Van Onselen bullshit.

  6. Fraser?
    Turnbull?
    The former just could not stand the ongoing hatred spewed at him over the dismissal and rather than toughing it out he has spent years courting the very people that his coup, put out of power. he is just totally contemptible in my book and who can forget his missing trousers?
    Turnbull blotted his copy book in a very big way when he did the deal with Rudd over the CPRS . It was very stupid politics to do such a deal in the first place and thankfully the party had the good sense to pull the pin on both the deal and his leadership. That said I have a certain affection for Turnbull and I have no doubt that he will make a competent minister in the incoming Abbott government.

  7. I thought we elected our MP’s to get the best outcome for the nation.

    At times that means being bipartsan.

    Does not mean opposing for the sake of Opposing.

    Read once more again, that Abbott is the greatest Opposition leader ever, because he has destroyed all that Mr. Rudd and this PM has attempted to do.

    We, the nation that supposedly believes in a fair go, and playing by the rule, now supports that winning is all there is. That anything goes to achieve one’s aim.

    Bad sportsmanship is now the badge we should all wear proudly.

    Sorry, I do not see the role of an opposition in that light.

  8. Florence
    Your mystical belief in a softer kinder more accommodating opposition role is too naive for words.
    Politics is a tough game played with no quarter asked or given and the sooner you get good with that reality, the sooner that your understanding of the game will improve.

  9. Fraser to me certainly represents or did represent the win at all costs mentality of those of the right who consider themselves via social status, born to rule. Abbott also epitomises this but has taken it to such an extreme that must be considered that Abbott is not entirely “well” – seen with his seemingly never-ending rant that the election result had been a huge mistake, and that via some unforeseen miracle the Prime Ministership would be promptly deposited in his lap..any tick of the clock.

    When this unforeseen miracle failed to materialise, those of the far right tried every method known to Quote: Call an early election. I was going to say by methods fair or foul, but they were all foul.

    Having said that, Fraser stance on asylum seekers and his condemnation of radical redneck attitudes towards migrants of the Muslim faith is to be highly commended. Fraser is also a staunch advocate for Australia becoming a republic, which has some irony attached given his previous use of the Governor General in bringing down a democratically elected government.

  10. Hall, the alternative is toxic and destroys all in its path.

    Yes, I do believe in as civil society.

    This idea of winner takes all is ridiculous. Even Mr. Howard had to work with the Opposition to get his bills through.

    Opposition is there to review legislation and put forwarded amendments to make it better.

    No one side has all the answers.

    Each MP elected to parliament, firstly is given a mandate by his electorate, to act in their best interest.

    His first duty is to those who voted them into power, not to any party.

    Their job is to support what is right, not oppose for the sake of opposing.

    It is the job of the Opposition leader to formulate alternative options, and sell them to the electorate. It is not their job to destroy an duly, legitimate elected government.,

    It is the voters job to depose of any government, if that is their wish at the next election.

    Yes, naive I might be, but I do believe in a fair go, Do not you.,

    .

  11. Min @ 8:23 am

    The toughest games are those that are fought fairly on skill and strength, not those where there is a constant attempt to undermine the game at every turn using every underhanded dirty and unfair trick to win.

    That doesn’t show credibility, toughness or fairness, it shows cowardice, cheating and weakness.

    There is no greater political coward and cheat than Abbott and no greater underhanded and dishonourable party than the current Liberal party.

  12. Migs, interesting article, but I am not one that could ever admire Fraser or any politician/party that treats the electorate with such contempt as Fraser did during the dismissal, or as Howard did with his litany of lies and how Abbott and co are continuing to do with their lis spin and corruption for personal, political advantage.

    Spoilt brat politics is an absolute blight on our democracy, and needs to be dealt with harshly, along with the politicians who indulge in such behaviour.

    Cu, spot on, and I also agree with your first comment, Fraser was just as bad in his own way, but I do believe that he has mellowed over the last decade or so.

    I also think that he was more moderate than the radical right of Abbotts mob, but him suffering the remorse of hindsight, will never completely remove his infamy from Australian history, and the large dent he put in our democracy.

    Cheers

  13. Yes Fraser did something reprehensible that a lot will never forgive him for but there is one other thing other than his humanitarianism that he should lauded for, and that was standing up to his Treasurer Howard when Fraser got power in both houses.

    Howard to this day states that Fraser wasted that term of holding both houses. At the time along with other radical policies, Howard wanted to introduce something very similar to the WorkChoices he did introduce many years later when he won power in both houses, an abuse of power that lost him government.

    That Howard to this day says Fraser wasted that term is a big endorsement for Fraser, and in light of the constant stream of data on just how bad the Howard reign was, it was a good thing Fraser did stand up to his Treasurer of the time.

  14. I do not believe the Whitlam era was as full of hate, as there is today,

    Yes, it was bad. I have a suspicion they took advantage and exaggerate opportunities that came their way.

    Whitlam gave them the opening, and the Opposition both on a state and federal level took advantage.

    The difference today is that this Opposition is deliberately using lies to destroy all in their path.

  15. M e, Mine is not so much a problem of forgiveness, but rather one of not being able to admire the man, albeit some of his actions since have been laudable, it is the inherent dishonesty of his actions that make him less than admirable as far as I am concerned.

    Cheers

  16. Min @ 8:21 am

    When this unforeseen miracle failed to materialise, those of the far right tried every method known to Quote: Call an early election. I was going to say by methods fair or foul, but they were all foul.

    Well I for one am happy to see Gillard go to term because each day that she remains in office will increase the subsequent time that Labor will spend in the political wilderness

    Having said that, Fraser stance on asylum seekers and his condemnation of radical redneck attitudes towards migrants of the Muslim faith is to be highly commended.

    Not at all Min, unless you are a believer in an open door immigration policy and an ever expanding population for this country

    Fraser is also a staunch advocate for Australia becoming a republic, which has some irony attached given his previous use of the Governor General in bringing down a democratically elected government.

    Personally I don’t see any reason to change to a republic,because the system we have now works well enough.

    Min @ 8:23 am

    Iain, many games are tough..however, this does not mean that it should be brought down to the lowest common denominator.

    I have been following politics for more than forty years Min and its not really any different now than it was when in the late sixties, all of the players do their best to manoeuvre for position and influence with ruthless determination.


    Catching up @ 8:31 am

    Florence

    Hall, the alternative is toxic and destroys all in its path.

    Rubbish its just more honest and lacking a pretence of “niceness”

    Yes, I do believe in as civil society.

    Only if it is a civil socialist society as far as I can see.

    This idea of winner takes all is ridiculous. Even Mr. Howard had to work with the Opposition to get his bills through.

    Only in the Senate Florence, because unlike Gillard he had a clear majority in the house.

    Opposition is there to review legislation and put forwarded amendments to make it better.

    Bollocks, an opposition is by definition opposed to the government of the day and they are under no obligation at all to make the government’s life easy.

    No one side has all the answers.

    Agreed

    Each MP elected to parliament, firstly is given a mandate by his electorate, to act in their best interest.

    His first duty is to those who voted them into power, not to any party.

    Hmm, to be elected any candidate has to say where they stand on the issues and if theya re elected on a party ticket they have made it clear that they will follow the party line, to expect otherwise is incredibly naive.

    Their job is to support what is right, not oppose for the sake of opposing.

    If they believe that everything done by this government is wrong then using their vote to oppose it is both right and proper.

    It is the job of the Opposition leader to formulate alternative options, and sell them to the electorate. It is not their job to destroy an duly, legitimate elected government.,

    The legitimacy of a government under the Westminster system is predicated on its ability to hold the confidence of the house and to do that they need a clear majority. Gillard has only the barest functional majority due to the endorsement of the Greens and independents as such her “legitimacy”is marginal at best and could disappear in a single heart attack or car accident

    It is the voters job to depose of any government, if that is their wish at the next election.

    And dispose of this government they certainly will with some vigour.

    Yes, naive I might be, but I do believe in a fair go, Do not you.,

    Sure I believe in a fair go Florence but what I define as a fair go is probably more realistic than your definition.

    .
    Möbius Ecko @ 8:34 am

    There is no greater political coward and cheat than Abbott and no greater underhanded and dishonourable party than the current Liberal party.

    That is a very myopic view Möbius and it ignores the “whatever it takes” mentality of the Labor party. Face it neither side is going to play the game of politics to some ridiculous pretence of “fairness” if they know that their opponents will not stick to the “rules”. Politics has ALWAYS been played to win and those who don’t recognise that loose

  17. Like Migs, I despised what Frazer did in 1975.

    But there’s got to be an end to hate.

    In my more forgiving moments I put the events of 1975 down to an aberration. The Libs had enjoyed uninterrupted power for 23 years, giving rise to notions of natural succession. And Frazer fell under its spell, no doubt to his lifelong regret.

    But the Liberal Party today is another animal and one only has to look to the Republicans in the US to find the template, and it is truly frightening, no hyperbole intended. It is civil war.

    BTW, has anybody been looking at the “trillion dollar platinum coin” idea as a means of by-passing the debt ceiling ? Nothing in the local news of course. Huffington Post is giving it a run. Worth a look.

  18. I agree that Fraser’s humanitarian record is worthy of admiration. Among other initiatives, he enacted the Land Rights legislation developed by Whitlam.

    However the similarities with the current pragmatic/whatever it takes approach of the LNP is EXACTLY what Fraser did in 75. Precedent meant nothing, deception was his modus operandi. There was nothing altruistic about what he did – it was just the naked pursuit of power by whatever means he could muster. He deserves condemnation for this – as does Abbott now.

  19. Fraser, with all his ‘faults’, is now percieved as an elder statesman…. 😕 which is something Abbott will never be !!! He won’t be Pope…. he won’t be PM and he certainly won’t be an elder statesman…….. Ambassador of Tuvalu,mayhap, though that option is sinking fast.

  20. Hall, you said this

    Bollocks, an opposition is by definition opposed to the government of the day and they are under no obligation at all to make the government’s life easy.

    To quote Robert Menzies

    “In my view, the duty of an opposition which wants to move over on to the Treasury benches is to be constructive, judicious, and different.” Being different means articulating our principles and developing policies consistent with them.

    People vote on their perceptions, and not generally issues, but it is the response to the various issues that go to create the important perceptions. That is why hard policy work is important.

    This opposition certainly is different, 1, they cannot articulate there principles and 2, they have no policies.

    Then you said this

    Only if it is a civil socialist society as far as I can see.

    So Hall, what form of socialism do the Labor party follow then, because according to Angelo S. Rappoport in his Dictionary of Socialism (1924) analysed forty definitions of socialism.

  21. He now views it as being a party that has drifted so far to the right it is no longer recognisable to the values he once stood for

    Unfortunately this also applies to the ALP … as a Labor supporter for well over 40 years … I believe it no longer represents Labor values …

    … a classic example is reducing assistance to single mothers recently, as the Minister (stupidly) announced she could live on the dole … even though she has now apologised – she said it and must have believed it … if now believes she couldn’t live on the dole – when will they consider a reasonable weekly $ figure …

    And no, at the moment I know no-one on the dole, or any single mums … (ie not pushing any personal barrows) … just the latest example of descending changing values within the ALP …

  22. Miglo wrote..
    “Like any young Labor voter in the 1970s I despised Malcolm Fraser with a passion for his role in the dismissal of the Whitlam Government, and I continued to have contempt for the man throughout his political life.”

    You then concluded … “that Fraser hasn’t changed but how much the Liberal Party has. It also shows that the party lost a man who understands the important issues of today, such as climate change, humanitarian issues, Indigenous issues and the Murdoch domination of our media and how it should be addressed. The Liberal Party today has no interest in any of those key problems”

    Since you “despised Fraser with such a passion” in the 70’s you clearly did not take much note of the fact that the Whitlam government if you could call it that was “rocked by scandal” and in dire straits fiscally. Nor could you have sen Whitlam was digging himself into a deeper hole as the weeks went by.

    Fraser was always a bit of a soft sock, to coin a similar phrase. He rose on the back of a Joh Bjelke Petersen initiative to appoint Albert Patrick Field to the Senate in 1975 and prevaricated on foreign policy and other key issues. Furthermore Fraser failed to read the electorate in 1983 and spent years deriding his old party after the election loss.

    Hardly and elder statesman I suggest. More to the point Malcolm lost himself a good few times along the way!

  23. TB Queensland
    JANUARY 12, 2013 @ 1:11 PM

    “He now views it as being a party that has drifted so far to the right it is no longer recognisable to the values he once stood for. Unfortunately this also applies to the ALP … as a Labor supporter for well over 40 years … I believe it no longer represents Labor values …”

    I agree and ask the question why has Labor moved so far to the right? Electoral advantage or policy theft?

  24. I agree with your comments about Mr Fraser after the Dismissal! Absolutely hated him with a passion! Now, however, I also agree that he is a voice of reason in a political nightmare!

  25. Paul Wilson
    Do you really think that citing Pig Iron Bob will send me aquiver with excitement?
    If you do then you are going to be very disappointed and you display an extensive ignorance about the game of politics. In revolutionary politics Lenin told us that “all power comes from the barrel of a gun” but in our democracy it comes from the number of votes in the lower house and the simple and unavoidable fact is that Gillard does not have full control of the nominal majority that keeps her on the treasury benches and when she can’t convince her partners in power to support her loopier ideas there is no reason to expect that Abbott will save her .

  26. Hall,

    in our democracy it comes from the number of votes in the lower house and the simple and unavoidable fact is that Gillard does not have full control of the nominal majority that keeps her on the treasury benches and when she can’t convince her partners in power to support her loopier ideas there is no reason to expect that Abbott will save her .

    That seems strange Hall, the Gillard Govt are on the treasury benches and in control, passing legislation to reform this country, while the opposition are doing what, nothing, no policies, no direction, all they are doing is trying to destabilize the Govt and get into power without an election, as in the quote above by Robert Menzies https://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/the-elder-statesman/#comment-130156, an opposition be constructive, judicious, and different.

    That goes for whoever is the opposition.

    Maybe Abbot should listen to the elder statesman of the liberal party, he might actually learn something. As Fraser said

    Malcolm Fraser represented a Liberal Party that bears no resemblance to the one he proudly led. He now views it as being a party that has drifted so far to the right it is no longer recognisable to the values he once stood for.

  27. Factless Troll, it was in fact your beloved Lord & Master-Tony Abbott-who promised a “kinder, gentler polity”. That was right before he went on to give us the most nasty, vindictive & personal sitting of parliament that I have *ever* seen. Of course his promise was only a pathetic attempt to get the Independents to side with him-but they were smart enough to know that Abbott is a cunning rat-bastard who would have forced a dissolution of parliament at the first possible opportunity. Still, you’d never allow *facts* to get in the way of a good story, would you factless troll?

  28. Wow, Trollman & Factless Troll really do have a gift for long-winded rants that actually say NOTHING AT ALL!

  29. Hall, you really try to come across as well-read but you fail miserably. Mao Zedong made the statement re ‘barrel of a gun’ and I noticed the other day that you confuse ‘libel’ and ‘liable’ which are completely different concepts.

    I suggest you write much, much less and read a lot more. Such an approach would be to the benefit of all.

  30. The fact that PM Gillard is still there, more than two years down the track, proves she has control.

    Cannot mean anything else.

    Name one piece of legislation that has been passed, that is not Labor policy.

    Then, I believe you would not know what has been passed. To busy screaming your own misguided opinions.

    While she has that vote, the government will continue.

    It will remain a duly elected, legitimate government, that meets the needs of the Constitution.

    All the wishful thinking in the world will not and cannot change that.

    The mandate comes from the individual MP’s elected by their individual electorate. They all have a duty to cast a vote on behalf of those who elected them. Party politics have nothing to do with it.

    Yes, most do vote following the direction of a party. Parties and the words prime minister cannot be found in the Constitution.

  31. Col, that’s because like many Right Wing trolls, Iain (aka Factless Troll) is a “pseudo-intellectual”. In reality, though, he is thicker than 2 planks-hence his rejection of climate science & his support for the Lunar Right of the political spectrum. Trollman is also thicker than the trees on which his tag is based.

  32. Paul Wilson
    To answer your last point first Fraser has not been a member of the liberal party for a few years now so can not be seen as one of its “elder statesmen” by any sensible person.
    Now to your first point Gillard has a nominal majority only when she can convince the Greens and the independents to vote in her favour, now for procedural matters and supply they have promised their votes but she has to bargain hard for any other bill outside that narrow criteria which is why she has had to go cap in hand to Abbott on a number of occasions when she wanted to pass legislation rejected by the Greens and the indies.
    Oh and can you please provide a citation for your Menzies quote because I would like to know its context.

  33. tree, what are Labor values. Surely we, in this modern age expect them to be expressed differently than a century ago.

    The workforce and lives of the lower income earners bear no similarity of those times.

    Many battles have been won. Surely you do not believe we should not move on, to new aspirations.

    The Labor voter today is different to the one of last century. Is a different person, with different needs.

    Tree, what should Labor be doing today. What are they doing that is so wrong.

  34. Hall, as you state this is a minority Government, why then, has not the Liberal party put up any alternate policy to be debated in Parliament, all they have to do is sit down with the Independents and discuss the issues at hand, as you have said the Govt has to negotiate with the greens and Independents, so why cannot the opposition.

    you look for the link Hall, I am not here to do the work for you.

  35. “The fact that PM Gillard is still there, more than two years down the track, proves she has control.

    Cannot mean anything else.”

    It couldn’t possibly mean that she’s scraped in by the skin of her teeth could it?

  36. Oh Iain, once again you prove how monumentally *thick* you actually are. Tell us, how often has Gillard failed to obtain the support from the Greens/Independents for her legislative agenda? Also, failure to gain support for one or more pieces of legislation are *not* the determinants of whether a government is legitimate or not. It is the ability to retain the *confidence* of enough lower house MP’s (regardless of party) to stay in office, along with the ability to guarantee supply. The current government has succeeded on *both* counts, & will almost certainly continue to do so in *spite* of the pathetic efforts of lunar Right trolls like yourself to say otherwise. If you’d bothered to do any reading (difficult for you, I know, as you clearly failed Primary School level English) you’d realise that Australia is one of very *few* Countries in the world that usually relies on a single party gaining the majority of lower house seats in order to form government. Of course, I could argue that almost *none* of the Coalition Governments since Menzies has been “legitimate”, given that they’ve relied on an alliance between two *very* different political parties-the Liberals (Free Market Fundamentalists) & the Nationals (Agrarian Socialists)-in order to form a workable majority. Well, at least if we apply your brand of “thinking”. Equally, the Tories in England clearly can’t be legitimate, as they’re in government only at the whim of the Liberal-Democrats (a party of the Center). Still, I bet you don’t see it that way, as consistency has *never* been your strong suit.

  37. Tree, please remind us of those so called and shocking scandals of the early 1970’s . In retrospect, they do not seem to warrant being mentioned.

    Today, one is more likely to be reminded of all that was achieve in those tumultuous, three short years and two elections. Some say that Whitlam began the process of economic reform that led to our economy being so strong today. That is the lowering of import taxes. One thing I suspect, you will bring up as being nonlabor action.

    Some say, that Mr. Fraser was guilty of reversing those reforms. It was up to Hawke and Keating to take the process further down the track.

    If memory serves me correctly, many seen these reforms as selling out labor values.

    It is the successes that previous Labor aschive, that some judge them of selling out the worker.

    To me, the chief labor value should be to create a strong economy, ensuring there is employment for all. This government has acted strongly on that front.

  38. PS. It is also true, that Fraser nearly lost. Another day or two, it was likely that enough would have crossed the floor and voted with Labor on the money bills. It was the action of the GG that remains questionable.

  39. “shocking” scandals. LOL. What, like using tax-payers dollars to get your brother off the hook? (John Howard, paying 100% of Workers’ Entitlements at Stan Howard’s National Textiles Mill, using tax-payers money), like the Health Minister telling radiologists that MRI’s would know longer be subsidized, so they could go on a big pre-budget spending spree? Like Peter Reith letting his son run up a $50,000 bill on his tax-payer funded phone card? Like Warwick Parer using his powers as resource minister to increase the value of his family’s shares? Like falsely imprisoning a man for electoral gain? Like having 2 journalists thrown in jail for exposing the lies of the then Veterans Affairs Minister? This was just a handful of the scandals that plagued the Howard Government, yet morons like Hall & Trollman still cheered on these losers to the bitter end-& still do.

  40. Fact is that Fraser/Howard gave us something that is all but unprecedented in economic history-stagflation. A combination of high unemployment & high inflation is almost unheard of, yet that is what we got under a Coalition government in the 1970’s-well, that and a large debt.

  41. “…given that they’ve relied on an alliance between two *very* different political parties-the Liberals (Free Market Fundamentalists) & the Nationals (Agrarian Socialists)-in order to form a workable majority.”

    From the very start they have only achieved this by bribinggiving the Nationals more than the number of votes they garner is worth, and this upsets quite a few Liberals who see portfolios, positions, pork and the deputy PM go to them whilst they are shoved to the back benches with better runs on the board.

    Over the last couple of decades the Liberals have been actively attempting to disenfranchise the Nationals at both State and Federal levels more often now contesting the same seats and also now more often winning them or seeing Indies win them.

    The Liberals certainly don’t represent the rural areas in any meaningful way and the records show Labor governments, especially at State level, have done better for the bush than the Liberals. So this conflict between Liberal big city/business support to the detriment of country areas, you are seeing it in spades at the moment with the Liberal State governments, used to be suppressed somewhat by throwing the Nationals lots of pork, often to the detriment of the rural areas as has happened in WA, but seemingly being at the interests of the rural constituencies.

    The Federal Liberals are now starting to push for optional preferential voting that the Nationals will fight against tooth and nail as it means a loosening of grip on power for them as has happened in the States with OPV.

    And you are right Marcus. Here are the rabid right wingers here going on about Labor Socialists = Very Bad when as TB points out Labor haven’t been anywhere near to socialist since Hawke and probably starting with Whitlam whilst the biggest Socialists in this country and the ones continuously calling for hard Socialist policies for the bush being the Nationals.

  42. Re Fraser. Try this article for some further, albeit very critical insights.

    Fraser was a regional and parochial political artifact. His lack of intrinsic leadership qualities led him to search for the holy grail of legitimacy which, due to his lack of intrinsic beliefs and poor judgment, he confused with approval from decadent opinion-making elites. In his identification with decadent elites, Fraser displayed a lack of character strength and fortitude; in this search Fraser revealed himself as a political decadent.

    http://www.nationalobserver.net/2002_autumn_109.htm

    Re OPV, it was well used by Beattie to keep power for years but it rebounded to some extent with the (temporary) merger of the Libs and the Nats.

  43. “Fraser displayed a lack of character strength and fortitude; in this search Fraser revealed himself as a political decadent.”

    Once again Miglo, the man is hardly a statesman and certainly no loss to Australian conservatives!

  44. Yes Migs at the time they couldn’t get enough of him even when he bought in what were in essence left wing policies or continued Whitlam’s programs and indeed started some that Whitlam proposed but never implemented.

    They also praised him for putting down his Treasurer and his radical ideas, so much so they banished Howard to the darkest corner of the backbenches they disliked Howard that much.

    But to be fair Migs it’s only the radical right wingers here that have turned, just as they have with Slipper, another they couldn’t praise or support enough when he was Abbott’s boy. There are many right moderates who still speak up for Fraser.

    So sad to see the terrible thing the Liberals have become, started by Howard and further radicalised by Abbott. Says a lot about those who go so much out of their way to speak up and condone the extreme right the party is moving to. Hopefully it will have the same fate as the Tea Party and Republicans who supported them.

  45. Migs, anyone who criticises or deserts from the LNP ranks is a traitor to the cause, and Slipper is the latest incarnation.

    It’s worse to turn your back on the LNP than it is to beat your grandmother to death with a rotting salmon. 😯

    What a pathetic lot they are 😦

    Cheers 😀

  46. Truth Seeker Labor can also be unforgiving to their traitors but you have a point in the LNP who take their revenge and pettiness to the end of time.

    Again it’s their born to rule mentality and their belief it’s their uncontested right to govern all the time and they should just be given that right. Anyone who does anything to upset their born to rule mentality gets their full wrath, and they don’t care what malpractice they undertake or lives they destroy in carrying out that wrath.

  47. Marcus @ 2:15 pm

    Factless Troll, it was in fact your beloved Lord & Master-Tony Abbott-who promised a “kinder, gentler polity”. That was right before he went on to give us the most nasty, vindictive & personal sitting of parliament that I have *ever* seen. Of course his promise was only a pathetic attempt to get the Independents to side with him-but they were smart enough to know that Abbott is a cunning rat-bastard who would have forced a dissolution of parliament at the first possible opportunity. Still, you’d never allow *facts* to get in the way of a good story, would you factless troll?

    The last sitting of parliament was hardly that different to those that preceded it apart from Gillard’s massive mistake and overreach in appointing Slipper as speaker (at the expense of the very respectable Harry Jenkins)and her shameful Carbon tax promise.
    Marcus @ 2:17 pm

    Wow, Trollman & Factless Troll really do have a gift for long-winded rants that actually say NOTHING AT ALL!

    Of course as one who is immune to reason you would say that wouldn’t you? 🙄
    Col@ 2:18 pm

    Hall, you really try to come across as well-read but you fail miserably. Mao Zedong made the statement re ‘barrel of a gun’ and I noticed the other day that you confuse ‘libel’ and ‘liable’ which are completely different concepts.

    I stand corrected on the Quote and I thank you for that but it is a mistake of little consequence as for typos well none of us are perfect

    .

    I suggest you write much, much less and read a lot more. Such an approach would be to the benefit of all.

    And I suggest that you ceasing writing AT All would be far mor efficacious to cyberspace 😉

    Catching up @ 2:21 pm

    The fact that PM Gillard is still there, more than two years down the track, proves she has control.Cannot mean anything else.

    No Florence all it means is that she could survive a no confidence motion

    Name one piece of legislation that has been passed, that is not Labor policy.

    That is easy Florence, there is the “carbon tax et al” which would not exist in its current form were it not an effort to buy the support of the Greens

    Then, I believe you would not know what has been passed. To busy screaming your own misguided opinions.

    Can you list the names of every bill passed in the last parliament?
    I think not

    While she has that vote, the government will continue. It will remain a duly elected, legitimate government, that meets the needs of the Constitution. All the wishful thinking in the world will not and cannot change that.

    Ah but a general election will Florence and then what will you do?
    Marcus @ 2:22 pm

    Col, that’s because like many Right Wing trolls, Iain is a “pseudo-intellectual”. In reality, though, he is thicker than 2 planks-hence his rejection of climate science & his support for the Lunar Right of the political spectrum. Trollman is also thicker than the trees on which his tag is based.

    As it happens Marcus I don’t reject climate science but I do question the validity of the AGW theory which is a very long way from being validated by the scientific method, as for your “Lunar right” claims, that is total nonsense.

  48. Miglo
    JANUARY 12, 2013 @ 4:20 PM
    My oh my, haven’t the right turned against Fraser?

    I never liked him. At the time I was young and naive and voted for labor!

  49. “But to be fair Migs it’s only the radical right wingers here that have turned, just as they have with Slipper, another they couldn’t praise or support enough when he was Abbott’s boy. There are many right moderates who still speak up for Fraser”

    What rubbish, name a few who still speak up for Fraser?

    “So sad to see the terrible thing the Liberals have become, started by Howard and further radicalised by Abbott. Says a lot about those who go so much out of their way to speak up and condone the extreme right the party is moving to. Hopefully it will have the same fate as the Tea Party and Republicans who supported them”

    Again, if you are for real you have let your ideology get in the way of common sense, “radicalised by Abbott” is a complete and utter nonsense. This business of right wing extremists is pure propaganda. Perhaps your real name is McTurnoff?!

  50. M E, nailed it.

    You are dead right, and to see the way that they turned on Slipper should leave no-one in any doubt about it.

    “There are no fiends in the LNP” ….. I think I wrote a poem about that!!

    I’ll put it up on my site in the next week or so. 😀

    Cheers 🙂 😀 😆

  51. Hall, I will accept whatever the voters at a general election, as I have and most Labor always have.

    I will then set out to work with Labor, to reverse the situation at the following election.

    That is how it works in a democracy.

    This attitude, is unlike the Opposition and their followers, that can never accept the decision of the voters when it goes against them.

    Hall, you do say some stuoid things at times. mostly childish stupid things. I believe that at times, you really believe you are so, so clever.

  52. “But to be fair Migs it’s only the radical right wingers here that have turned, just as they have with Slipper, another they couldn’t praise or support enough when he was Abbott’s boy. There are many right moderates who still speak up for Fraser”

    Rubbish! Most conservatives from Queensland never liked Slipper at all, in the same sense that Katter is loved by his electorate but despised elsewhere. You really must get rid of your pink glasses, they’re clouding your judgement!

  53. “Hall, you do say some stuoid things at times. mostly childish stupid things. I believe that at times, you really believe you are so, so clever.”

    For someone who regularly makes stupid comments on subjects about which you know little, you really have got a hide, CU!

  54. Florence
    what makes you think that we conservatives don’t do precisely the same things as you are proposing as you post Gillard strategy?
    Of course I accepted the result of the last election and all of the ones before that as well and like you plan to do after the next election I have done my bit to change the result at the next election.
    The difference is that I have not been burdened by having to defend a lost cause like Gillard.

  55. I still see Hall is on about the carbon tax issue again, It is not a tax Hall, it is a carbon price for a fixed term, the going to an ETS, I do wish you would read up on the issue, but then again that is to much for you I think.

  56. Hall, that one is easy. By the words and actions of you all from the moment an election is declared. The screams. of we were robbed and the government is illegitimate.

    Tree, you amaze me with the belief in your own superiority. Believe me, it is greatly displaced.

    No, it is not that I do not know what I am talking about.The problems for you is, I do not agree with you.

    I would begin to worry, if I at any time agree with the likes of you.

    I know I have hit the spot, when the abuse starts coming., It always does,

    I take any denigation from you both as a compliment.

  57. “he difference is that I have not been burdened by having to defend a lost cause like Gillard”

    Sorry, Hall that is not why I am here. The PM is capable of doing that herself.

    What I am about is challenging the lies, exaggerations and misinformation that Abbott and his cohorts put out every day.

  58. Florence @ 5:56 pm

    Hall, that one is easy. By the words and actions of you all from the moment an election is declared. The screams. of we were robbed and the government is illegitimate.

    Well that has NOT been my argument at all and If you care to check out my blog you will see that my argument has consistently been that Gillard has led a bad and incompetent administration rather than an “illegitimate ” government.

    I take any denigration from you both as a compliment.

    Well that must mean that you are getting no complements from me then 🙂

    “the difference is that I have not been burdened by having to defend a lost cause like Gillard”

    Sorry, Hall that is not why I am here. The PM is capable of doing that herself.

    Florence surely you jest? Every time one of us criticises Gillard you rush to argue against our critiques

    What I am about is challenging the lies, exaggerations and misinformation that Abbott and his cohorts put out every day.

    No what you are about is defending Gillard to trying to help her win another term.

  59. My oh my, haven’t the right turned against Fraser?

    So what are your present thoughts on, Mark Latham, Miggsy?

    Ya see, my problem is that everyone is seeing how far they can piss into the wind … without considering why?

    For the simple minded – politics has become a pissing contest that we just watch … trying to have “an influence” is BS … politicians don’t “care” about the nation or the people that live here … they care about “image”, and “perks” and “after serving being defeated” – read, caught out … Gillard’s lot is no better than Abbott’s lot – they are all FRAUDS!

  60. Follow

    Tao de Haas
    ‏@TaodeHaas
    ‘The problem with the world is the foolish are cocksure and the intelligent always doubt themselves’ Bertrand Russell
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  61. Was never big on Latham, TB. He wasn’t the man for the job.

    Whilst I’m a Labor man, I don’t confess to liking all Labor pollies or ever having liked all Labor pollies.

  62. TB</strong
    perhaps you need to see all politics as a Game rather than any sort of noble pursuit and then you won't be so disappointed

    Florence

    Hall. if I challenge, it is because what you are saying is not truth.

    No you challenge me because the truth I offer is not to your liking .

  63. “Since you “despised Fraser with such a passion” in the 70′s you clearly did not take much note of the fact that the Whitlam government if you could call it that was “rocked by scandal” and in dire straits fiscally.”

    I’m with CU. The so-called scandals were largely manufactured by a prurient media. Easily atoned for by pulling our conscripts out of that disgusting war.

    As for “dire straits fiscally”, you’ve gotta be kidding Tree. Either you don’t know what “fiscal” means, or you’re just flying a kite. Whitlam had better “numbers” than any succeeding government for the next 10 years.

    His cabinet wrung its hands in despair at the prospect of 3% unemployment.

    The 73-74 budget produced a surplus, repeat, surplus, of over $200m and the govt was accused of being “expansionary”.

    That surplus came about because Whitlam had the economy running at near full capacity. I will never see that happen again.

    As I commented a few days ago, if you learn your economics from newspapers you stay ignorant.

  64. I’m not immune to reason at all, Factless Troll. However, as you’ve yet to provide anything like *facts* to back up all of your ludicrous & long-winded rants, I don’t actually see how you can make that claim about me. I note that you *never* deal with anyone’s direct questioning of your blind faith in Abbott & the Fiberal Party, instead just trying to distract everyone with another long & boring rant, unsupported by evidence!

  65. “No you challenge me because the truth I offer is not to your liking”/ LOL, Factless troll, when have you *ever* spoken the TRUTH or even backed up your lies with anything approximating evidence. Go back to your Lunar Right blog, Iain, you deluded dipshit.

  66. “apart from Gillard’s massive mistake and overreach in appointing Slipper as speaker (at the expense of the very respectable Harry Jenkins)and her shameful Carbon tax promise”

    and more factless twaddle from Factless Troll. Where was the over-reach, Mr Hall? Whatever the reasons for Jenkins standing down, Gillard followed SOP in elevating the then Deputy Speaker to the role-the same Deputy Speaker nominated by your beloved Fiberal Party. I’d say the over-reach was in key members of the Fiberal Party (including Abbott himself, if some of his words prior to Slipper’s elevation are anything to go by) conspiring to pervert the course of justice to bring down a sitting MP. That over-reach may yet cause massive discomfort to some of your most beloved Fiberal Party. Of course, even if Slipper were guilty of what Ashby had accused him of, how would it have differed from Howard’s elevation of Mal Colston to the Senate Presidency in return for support of selling 1/3rd of Telstra? Or do you agree that this was massive over-reach on Howard’s part? As for Gillard’s “Carbon Tax Promise”, what promise? She promised she’d legislate to put a price on Carbon in this term, & that’s *exactly* what she did-by bringing in an ETS with a 3 year, fixed price period. The over-reach in this matter, again, has been by your beloved Fiberal Party. By massively overstating the pain & destruction the price on carbon would inflict, they’ve been left looking incredibly stupid over the last 6 months-the same period over which Labor has most narrowed the gap with the Fiberal Party. Either way, though, Labor has been extremely successful in passing numerous legislative & supply bills, in spite of technically being a *Minority* government. I doubt Abbott could have done the same.

  67. Please don’t put Gough up as a paragon of virtue. When he came to power he and Lance Barnard “stole” $194M from the Defence Reirement Fund promising to provide the Defence Force with 1% Interest for looking after their money. THe money went but Defence retirees never saw the promised interest – more broken promises – sound familiar. Add this Khemlami et al, and you have a bunch of theives, rogues, liars and cheats. What’s changed with today’s lot – nothing. Same descriptors just different faces. Borrow money to buy votes and then hope the next Government will clean-up the mess they leave behind. Labor – tragic then, worse now.

  68. perhaps you need to see all politics as a Game rather than any sort of noble pursuit and then you won’t be so disappointed

    Your world is full of assumption (about other people) … always has been … and particularly don’t assume to “educate” me …

    I know you, and your past, and I understand the psychology of using your “name” … Iain … 🙄

    The game of thrones has been played since long before we were born … “democracy” is just a “new” name for power …

    As I was told in Egypt a few years ago … nothing is new …

    Maybe you should listen to posters like, Mangrove Jack … Fraser (and the governor general, “Sir”** John Kerr) did to Whitlam what Abbott tried to do to Gillard over the Slipper/Ashby Affair … when royalists get involved in politics democracy disappears!

    (Does anyone really not understand that the Queen of Australia, Elizabeth II, had no idea of what was happening to a duly elected government? The Firm has so much blood on its hands, now and for centuries … fancy having a German royal family limked to the Greek royal family as the head of state of Australia … people are so fkn blind)

    Vive la Republique!

    ** “noble persuit” … your wanker “Sirs” were cutting down my ancestors centuries ago, then when they were told that was “wrong” they just “used” them from about nine years old for profit (any way they could) … then when they had a serious international argument they stuck them in the Army to go off to fight … fucking GAME? … my arse … you’re a child … NOTHING HAS CHANGED …

  69. Even if we were to assume that Gillard *did* lie about the Carbon Tax (which she didn’t), need we remind you which side of politics created the whole concept of the “non-core promise”, simply to cover up for the plethora of lies they told in order to win government in 1996? Then there were the lies about Wik, the lies about East Timor, the lies about “Children Overboard”, the lies about AWB & the Iraq War, the lies about the Medicare Safety Net & Industrial Relations reforms, the lies about Haneef & Habib, Abbott’s lies about meeting with Pell & his role in “Australians for Honest Politics”. More recently, as I said above, Abbott promised a kinder, more gentle polity-which was a lie-he also promised to abide by the parliamentary standards put forward by the Independents-another lie. He is also almost certainly lying about when he knew about the deal to stitch up Slipper with a phony accusation of Sexual Harassment.

  70. Curry, I don’t believe anyone here has put Whitlam on a pedestal, but show me even one post-war government which is 100% clean & pure. That still didn’t justify Joh’s replacement of a Labor Senator with a Conservative one, & nor does it justify the coup launched by the Conservatives.

  71. The more I read Hall & Treeman the more I am convinced they are frauds. I don’t think, especially Hall , is a conservative in fact, I think he is just a moron screaming out for attention. His grasp on history is at about at the level of a fourteen yr old. Not only that , he uses words that are not the norm in everyday communication., hence his big noting his claim to tertiary education, which I don’t believe he has engaged in period..

    I think the poor fucker lives out in some dump in the middle of nowhere, and he needs the stimulation of argument. For Hall the topic does not matter, only that he thinks he is getting the better of his partners in the debate.

    A few years ago I read the comments of some psychologist on Hall’s rants he more or less said the same thing. That is where I got my thoughts on him, however it is quite clear he is nuts.

  72. Curry, I won’t dismiss your accusations out of hand, but I’m curious about the origins of your beliefs, especially given that all C’wealth pension obligations are what’s oddly labelled in budget-speak, ” unfunded liabilities”.

    Are there some other factors here we tend to overlook, in terms of unfunded liabilities: I’m thinking of how my elderly mother, a veteran’s widow was medi-vacked from Port Macquarie to the RNS (with a Harbour view) for some pretty minor surgical work after a fall.

    It seems there are some fairly generous other benefits that come with military pensions ?

    The Liberal model would be to take your contributions and salt them away in a “future fund” where they could take their chances in market based investments, like perhaps, tobacco shares or clever financial products like CDSs and the like. All AAA rated of course.

  73. Back when Fraser was running the show I belonged to the young Liberals, and I used to get upset when people called them Tories. Looking back I don’t thing it is something to be ashamed off. In my view both Fraser and Whitlam where great men. I admired them both then and I still do.

    The Liberal party of today is something to despise you can call them what you dam well please.

  74. Let’s face it, the Liars have always held the mortgage on lies, deceit and smear.

    Gillard promised not to impose a carbon tax. She has kept that promise. There is no carbon tax, no matter how various trolls and their heroes, the Liars, attempt to spin it. There is a price on carbon emissions which will transition to an ETS.

    No amount of lies, obfuscations, innuendo or spin can change those facts, but alas the Liars have never dealt in facts or the truth.

  75. Hall, I notice you’ve responded. And again I shake my head.

    … as for typos well none of us are perfect

    Indeed. Not one of us is perfect. Singular subject demands a singular verb.

    And another example:

    … getting no complements from …

    Dear oh dear. No ‘compliments’ for that’

    Hall, if you have a ‘degree’ then it must have come in a corn flakes packet. Or perhaps, it was one of those ‘sympathy’ awards that some misguided junior lecturers bestow on certain ‘disadvantaged’ students, broadly defined.

    Hall, you would do well to learn from this ‘blog master’ who can not only articluate a ‘point of view’ but also has the technical mastery to present same without fundamental error. As I said earlier, more reading and less writing. Trust me, it’s the path to less ridicule.

  76. Keep saying it Jane. That was a lie about Julia Gillard and the carbon tax. We should be rubbing their noses in their ideas about climate change too after this summer everywhere in Oz.

    Time and again we hear it said
    Tony Abbott can’t lie straight in bed.
    He can though lie with a straight face
    Such that Virgin Mary would grant him grace.

    He kept denouncing Labor’s carbon ‘tax’
    While carefully not disclosing facts
    That he had plans for one himself
    Which for the moment’s on the shelf.

    But that’s not unusual form from him.
    When his chances are looking slim
    He’ll dream up any scheme or policy
    With no concern for our democracy.

    So to guarantee an election win,
    With plans to scrap it once he’s in,
    He’s put ‘Direct Action’ on the map
    After consistently proclaiming, “Climate change is crap!”

    Imagine how well those millions of young trees planted as part of his direct action plan would be faring right now! I hope the ALP have lots of footage of his “Climate Change Is Crap!” comments ready for the upcoming election.

  77. Marcus @ 8:09 pm

    I’m not immune to reason at all, Factless Troll. However, as you’ve yet to provide anything like *facts* to back up all of your ludicrous & long-winded rants, I don’t actually see how you can make that claim about me.

    Mate you have these huge filters that cause you to ignore any argument that does not match your ideology, that is why you are immune to reason

    I note that you *never* deal with anyone’s direct questioning of your blind faith in Abbott & the Fiberal Party, instead just trying to distract everyone with another long & boring rant, unsupported by evidence!

    What is it with you and using “*” in your prose? That said I don’t have teh sort of blind faith that you assume I do furtehr I use the evidence of your own words against you
    Marcus @ 8:11 pm

    “No you challenge me because the truth I offer is not to your liking”/ LOL, Factless troll, when have you *ever* spoken the TRUTH or even backed up your lies with anything approximating evidence. Go back to your Lunar Right blog, Iain, you deluded dipshit.

    I suspect that you have the same definitional problem as far too many of your latte sipping pals, namely you equate truth with your leftist ideology, and insist that something has to convince you for it to be valid evidence.
    Marcus 8:20 pm

    Whatever the reasons for Jenkins standing down, Gillard followed SOP in elevating the then Deputy Speaker to the role-the same Deputy Speaker nominated by your beloved Fiberal Party.

    Slipper was a man on the tail end of his parliamentary career and well known for his excessive uses of travel and other expenses entitlements so don’t try to pretend that Gillard did not make a serious error of judgement in raising him up to high office all in the quest to be able to get out from under the promise that she had made to Andrew Wilkie on the Pokies issue.
    Curry @ 8:21 pm

    Please don’t put Gough up as a paragon of virtue. When he came to power he and Lance Barnard “stole” $194M from the Defence Reirement Fund promising to provide the Defence Force with 1% Interest for looking after their money. THe money went but Defence retirees never saw the promised interest – more broken promises – sound familiar. Add this Khemlami et al, and you have a bunch of theives, rogues, liars and cheats. What’s changed with today’s lot – nothing. Same descriptors just different faces. Borrow money to buy votes and then hope the next Government will clean-up the mess they leave behind. Labor – tragic then, worse now.

    Well put Curry 🙂
    TB Queensland @ 8:23 pm

    perhaps you need to see all politics as a Game rather than any sort of noble pursuit and then you won’t be so disappointed

    Your world is full of assumption (about other people) … always has been … and particularly don’t assume to “educate” me …

    Take my suggestion as you please or ignore it because I am just playing the Game of Blogs…

    I know you, and your past, and I understand the psychology of using your “name” … Iain … 🙄

    Really? What does that mean?

    The game of thrones has been played since long before we were born … “democracy” is just a “new” name for power …

    Yep I agree with that and clearly you have read the books, or have you on;y watched the HBO version?

    As I was told in Egypt a few years ago … nothing is new …

    Maybe you should listen to posters like, Mangrove Jack … Fraser (and the governor general, “Sir”** John Kerr) did to Whitlam what Abbott tried to do to Gillard over the Slipper/Ashby Affair … when royalists get involved in politics democracy disappears!

    Rubbish! Oh you are right about Fraser and Whitlam But you are exaggerating in your comparison to the “Slipper/Ashby Affair”

    (Does anyone really not understand that the Queen of Australia, Elizabeth II, had no idea of what was happening to a duly elected government? The Firm has so much blood on its hands, now and for centuries … fancy having a German royal family limked to the Greek royal family as the head of state of Australia … people are so fkn blind)

    My suppressor for the current system is all about a belief in the old adage of “if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it” than any particular adoration of the royal family

    ** “noble persuit” … your wanker “Sirs” were cutting down my ancestors centuries ago, then when they were told that was “wrong” they just “used” them from about nine years old for profit (any way they could) … then when they had a serious international argument they stuck them in the Army to go off to fight … fucking GAME? … my arse … you’re a child … NOTHING HAS CHANGED

    That is some serious anger issues in evidence TB, can I suggest therapy may help you with that?

    Marcus @ 8:31 pm

    Curry, I don’t believe anyone here has put Whitlam on a pedestal, but show me even one post-war government which is 100% clean & pure. That still didn’t justify Joh’s replacement of a Labor Senator with a Conservative one, & nor does it justify the coup launched by the Conservatives.

    I agree with you about Joh’s dirty tricks Marcus
    P.J. @ 8:57 pm

    The more I read Hall & Treeman the more I am convinced they are frauds. I don’t think, especially Hall , is a conservative in fact, I think he is just a moron screaming out for attention. His grasp on history is at about at the level of a fourteen yr old. Not only that , he uses words that are not the norm in everyday communication., hence his big noting his claim to tertiary education, which I don’t believe he has engaged in period..

    Read my Blog if you don’t think that I am a conservative as for my use of terms and words that are in less than common usage well that comes from my extensive reading and a great love of the way that certain words sound.

    I think the poor fucker lives out in some dump in the middle of nowhere, and he needs the stimulation of argument. For Hall the topic does not matter, only that he thinks he is getting the better of his partners in the debate.

    Isn’t the fun of the chase fundamental to the Game of Blogs? If you don’t get that then you are playing the wrong game PJ.

    A few years ago I read the comments of some psychologist on Hall’s rants he more or less said the same thing. That is where I got my thoughts on him, however it is quite clear he is nuts.

    Gee I would be keen to know what your citation would be for that claim! Further how would you define “nuts”?

    jane @ 11:24 pm

    Let’s face it, the Liars have always held the mortgage on lies, deceit and smear.

    Gillard promised not to impose a carbon tax. She has kept that promise. There is no carbon tax, no matter how various trolls and their heroes, the Liars, attempt to spin it. There is a price on carbon emissions which will transition to an ETS.

    No amount of lies, obfuscations, innuendo or spin can change those facts, but alas the Liars have never dealt in facts or the truth.

    The point is no member of the general public buy that semantic argument no matter how often you try to sell it.
    Col @ 11:47 pm

    Hall, I notice you’ve responded. And again I shake my head.

    … as for typos well none of us are perfect

    Indeed. Not one of us is perfect. Singular subject demands a singular verb.

    Yawn! Oh please spare us your juvenile parsing of my comments especially when any student of English understands that all of the rules of grammar are subject to the vagaries of common usage and that means that for every rule of grammar there are multiple exceptions and that essentially means that your claims are bunkum.

    Hall, if you have a ‘degree’ then it must have come in a corn flakes packet. Or perhaps, it was one of those ‘sympathy’ awards that some misguided junior lecturers bestow on certain ‘disadvantaged’ students, broadly defined.

    No my degree is from the University of Queensland

    Hall, you would do well to learn from this ‘blog master’ who can not only articluate(sic) a ‘point of view’ but also has the technical mastery to present same without fundamental error. As I said earlier, more reading and less writing. Trust me, it’s the path to less ridicule.

    It is always a serious faux pas to denounce another for their typos and spelling mistakes without being absolutely scrupulous in your own proof reading. It totally undermines your credibility and make you look rather foolish.

  78. Hey, the Liberals know about the situation. They have been in Government since then and done nothing. They’re all weak bastards, but their time will come. The elderly POPs (poor old pensioners) of which ex-military retirees are a substantial part are becoming a significant voice at voting time. Governments are quick to get photo opportunities when the military are awarded medals or are killed in action, but the same pollies refuse to support equitable remuneration for military pensioners. Check the widening gap between miltary pensions and the old-age pension let alone that of the pollies. Third class citizens still vote. Watch out, our time is coming.

  79. On the Libs being able to run with the lie that the price on carbon is a tax, in hindsight the government should have spent a lot more time explaining the difference. Well they did to a certain extent, but of course the word TAX and the ensuing scare campaign was that which received 99.9% of the headlines.

  80. Min
    Even Gillard has refered to the carbon tax as a tax occasion. It’s a petard of her own making because had she got a better deal from the Greens and Indies she would not be in this semantic pickle now. All she had to do was tell them that they could have their carbon tax AFTER another election and she would have been seen to be sticking to her promise after all they were not keen on supporting Abbott now were they?

  81. Ah, “the lie that the price on carbon is a tax” furphy…The propaganda put out to diffuse “There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”

    Call it what you will, the tax/levy/soon to become trading scheme has been promoted explicitly to offset co2″emissions” which are “warming the planet dangerously” Problem is the tax/levy/sbtc will do nothing whatsoever to lower temps which have not risen within the margin of error measurement for almost two decades.

    Any explaining Gillard has done has been to obfuscate the policy which meanwhile has seen the value of STC’s drop to under $30 and a clearing house with 5,372,575 STC’s in surplus today. https://www.rec-registry.gov.au/clearingHouseTransferList.shtml

  82. Iain Hall January 12, 2013 @ 7:19 pm No you challenge me because the truth I offer is not to your liking .

    Truth???? The truth according to the delusional factless troll Hall, is legendarily hilarious.

    Col
    January 12, 2013 @ 2:18 pm
    I suggest you write much, much less and read a lot more. Such an approach would be to the benefit of all.

    Or just Fuck off 🙄

    Treeman
    January 12, 2013 @ 3:52 pm
    Once again Miglo, the man is hardly a statesman and certainly no loss to Australian conservatives!
    Hardly and elder statesman I suggest. More to the point Malcolm lost himself a good few times along the way!
    Since you “despised Fraser with such a passion” in the 70′s you clearly did not take much note of the fact that the Whitlam government if you could call it that was “rocked by scandal” and in dire straits fiscally.

    When a former Prime minister denounces his own party, it’s a very telling indignation of its direction

    I back what Fraser’s legacy post political career over anyone else in the fiberal party who are greedy corrupt power hungry liars.

    That would be the Whitlam government that left Fraser and Australia’s worst treasurer with 0 debt. They racked up 39 billion which was inherited by Hawke/Keating which was still carried over to Howard who inherited his own debt. Costello was a shit treasurer who bullshitted and bragged after the sale of 72 billion in assets.

    Miglo
    January 12, 2013 @ 4:20 pm
    My oh my, haven’t the right turned against Fraser?

    And…., anyone else who develops a conscience for the disgraceful acts of Howard and this bunch of immoral incompetent’s.
    Fraser has gone a long way to redemption. The dismissal was the most treacherous act in Australian history. The fact that the Fiberals are now the neocon party of privilege with a talentless bunch of liars is telling when a former prime minister renounces the party.

  83. Noticed Hall was here again, criticizing peoples posts again, never offering an alternate platform, offering coalition policy in return (that’s right, the LNP have no policies). Maybe Hall can give us an explanation on why, again we have asked him and other trolls this, the LNP would be a better government without policies to put to the people, but he will not, as he will say, read my blog, all the answers are there, go to the Liberal site, read there policies, there sites are bollocks.

    Just once I would like to see the trolls offer something, but no they will not for the fear of humiliated.

  84. ‘Iain, when has she called it a tax?’

    Splitting hairs over what joolya did or didn’t say about that ‘imposition’ is not important. Abbott will dismantle the whole green machine.

    Look ahead and do a post on what Australia might be like after the first four years of a Coalition government.

  85. Good old Mal was one of those who promoted Robert Mugabe. When Mal found out his pet was responsible for mass-murder and genocide, he tried to wipe his hands of it. Sorry Mal, the blood is on your hands.

  86. El gordo, Iain said that the PM has herself called it a tax. I simply asked him to provide the evidence.

    Perhaps you should be critical of him for raising it.

    And I’ll take up your suggestion of doing a post of what Australia might be like after three years of an Abbott Government.

  87. Miglo, that post is going to be one of the shortest you have ever written.

    The first three years of any Abbott government, will be if he manages to last, calling elections, until he gets the numbers he wants.

    It will lead to one of the greatest periods of political instability in our political history.

    It will throw our elections for the two houses out of sync, something that has not occurred since the days of Menzies.

    Was listening on TN this morning to a long interview with Oakshott and Windsor, talking about why they supported to support Gillard and not Abbott.

    The main reasons were that the discussions with Gillard where clinical and to the point. The discussions with Abbott was about him

    Windsor made the point that physically, Abbott is a strong man. The man they saw in their discussions, was a weak man, that did not have the skills to hold the government together.

    They believed and it has been proven so, Gillard has,

    Windsor also said this government has introduced much legislation that is for the long term.. Also said that under this government, the bush has done very well.

    No, Miglo, nothing will be achieved in three years of an Abbott government, mainly because he has no intention of waiting three years before until his return to the people, to get the numbers he wants.

    There will be much demolished though. Much for no good or economical reasons.

    There is a danger that the country might find ourselves in the realms of ground zero, long before the three years are up.

    Personally, I cannot see business standing by, allowing this to occur.

  88. What a coincidence Migs .
    The labor party of Whitlam bears no resemblence to todays Labor.
    A philosphical article by you – the recent transplant of my dogs balls has netted
    a good result for you at last!

  89. Miglo @ 10:46 am

    Iain, when has she called it a tax?

    Several times and here is an example:

    With the electorate returning a hung parliament, Ms Gillard was forced to deal with the Greens to form a minority government.

    The pact led to the establishment of a multi-party climate change committee, which included Greens members.

    Last week, Ms Gillard announced a carbon tax would begin in July 2012.

    The Prime Minister explained that a fixed-price period, for an interim three to five years, would effectively operate as a carbon tax.

    “A carbon tax is where you fix price,” Ms Gillard said.


    Rciky @ 11:05 am

    Iain Hall January 12, 2013 @ 7:19 pm No you challenge me because the truth I offer is not to your liking .

    Truth???? The truth according to the delusional factless troll Hall, is legendarily hilarious

    Funny but you look nothing like Florence

    Or just Fuck off 🙄

    Drop the abuse please because it lowers the tone of this otherwise fine blog

  90. Whether she called it a tax or not, is unimportant at this time. What is important is, has the correct thing been done. I believe so.

    I cannot see how a penalty being put on carbon emissions can be seen as tax.

    Something that Mr. Abbott also intends to do within his Direct Action Scheme.

    Problem is we do not know how much or how he intends to do it.

    The PM did make a mistake early in the piece when she replied if you see it as a tax, so be it. The PM at that time did not want to get bogged down in semantics The PM wanted to focus on what she was doing, not on what she had said.

    That was a mistake. Probably thought that when all seen the whole video, that is the conclusion most would come to. Especially when what was being discussed at the time, was the difference between a carbon tax, which Abbott had introduced to the debate, and a cost on carbon emission..

  91. Small torch wrote:
    “When a former Prime minister denounces his own party, it’s a very telling indignation of its direction”

    It could not of course mean that like an aggrieved ex employee Fraser just did a dummy spit?

    “That would be the Whitlam government that left Fraser and Australia’s worst treasurer with 0 debt. ”

    Of course that would have nothing to do with the fact that McMahon handed over to the Whitlam Labor Government negative net debt of 1.6% of GDP which by 1983-84 had risen to 7.5% of GDP and peaked at 18.1% of GDP in 1995-96 during the fiscal fuckups of the Keating government would it now?

    “anyone else who develops a conscience for the disgraceful acts of Howard and this bunch of immoral incompetent’s.
    Fraser has gone a long way to redemption”

    What drivel…are you also a promoter of Mugabe?

  92. Florence @ 12:51 pm

    Miglo, that post is going to be one of the shortest you have ever written.

    The first three years of any Abbott government, will be if he manages to last, calling elections, until he gets the numbers he wants.

    I really doubt that Abbott will have to call a DD election quite simply because a very much diminished Labor Party will accept that Abbott will have a VERY CLEAR mandate to abolish the Carbon tax and they won’t oppose the legislation to abolish it.

    It will lead to one of the greatest periods of political instability in our political history.

    It will throw our elections for the two houses out of sync, something that has not occurred since the days of Menzies.

    The Labor party will be at a record low, hmm that will bring stability all on its own.

    No, Miglo, nothing will be achieved in three years of an Abbott government, mainly because he has no intention of waiting three years before until his return to the people, to get the numbers he wants.

    Of course you assume that he won’t do well enough at the next election Florence which is a faulty assumption based entirely on wishful thinking.

    There will be much demolished though. Much for no good or economic reasons.

    All that will be demolished is Gillard’s useless Ponzi scheme and it will be entirely unmourned

    There is a danger that the country might find ourselves in the realms of ground zero, long before the three years are up.
    Personally, I cannot see business standing by, allowing this to occur.

    Please explain this 😮

  93. Catching up
    JANUARY 13, 2013 @ 1:06 PM
    “Whether she called it a tax or not, is unimportant at this time. What is important is, has the correct thing been done. I believe so”

    Flo, you really must stop going with the flow of the demented view that CO2 is a pollutant to be penalised. It’s the gas of life! Without it we would all die as there would be no living plants left to generate Oxygen for us to breathe.

    Say it like a mantra Flo,
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    Ommmmmmmmmm

  94. …………………..f the Coalition were to win the upcoming federal election, Liberal MP Greg Hunt says the carbon tax will be scrapped within six months.
    Let me be clear from the start: there is no doubt that, contrary to David Forman’s claims on The Drum yesterday, a Coalition Government will abolish the carbon tax.
    We will scrap the tax because it is both an economic and an environmental failure. Removing this tax is the only responsible course of action for an incoming government.
    The carbon tax is enormously expensive and fails to clean up our emissions. At its heart is an inefficient and ineffective electricity tax.
    It is worth for a moment taking a closer look at the actual cost of the carbon tax.
    First, there is $105 billion of taxes out to 2020/21 largely paid for in electricity, gas and diesel price rises……..
    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4460656.html

    1064 COMMENTS Does have some public interest. The views given in these comments, even more so.

  95. “1064 COMMENTS Does have some public interest. The views given in these comments, even more so.”

    This one says it all…
    “Well according to all the Labor supporters on this site Abbott is a lying bastard, religious nut, mysogynist, baby killer, ready to destroy the planet when he takes over the world with his Gestapo secret army! Not only that but he has no chance on earth of beating that Joan of Arc heroine Gillard.
    Well blow me down they then spend every article wishing and hoping that either Turnbull replaces him (so Labor get decimated at the next election, yeah right) or telling us he won’t or can’t get his policy implemented if he wins. (Keep wishing and hoping guys)
    Just a little statement of what each and everyone of you really believe. Abbott will win by a landslide, The Liberals will implement everyone of their policies whether you like it or not. The election will be determined by 3 or 4 major issues, economic mismanagement and waste ( you know the list) , carbon tax, border protection and the daddy of them all trustworthiness. Imagine anyone believing anything Gillard or Swann says during the election campaign. Especially after the carbon tax and surplus sagas. “No there will be no tax on the family home under the government I lead” I just made that up but I am sure the Liberals have learnt well from Labor. You know what goes around comes around.
    Do you already see your worst nightmare come to life in front of your eyes? Guys to use Abbott’s words as I know you already suspect Labor is dead buried and cremated.
    Get used to it”

  96. eg

    “… but, but, won’t too much CO2 in the atmosphere endanger life?”

    Breath deep and say it like a mantra
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    CO2 is the gas of life
    Ommmmmmmmmm

  97. Grant :
    11 Jan 2013 5:38:25pm
    “Therefore, no matter what they say now, I expect that a defeated ALP under a new leader would not block the repeal of the carbon tax. Otherwise they would face an immediate double dissolution election”

    Obviously Greg Hunt has never read section 57 of the Constitution.

    Alert moderator

    Boisterous :
    11 Jan 2013 6:39:57pm
    How dare you try to introduce reality into a Coalition opinion piece?

    Hunt’s claim of 6 months is based solely on the proviso that Labor will vote with them. It is reckless to try to con people on that point and silly of Labor if they do back down on some ‘mandate’ idea conjured up by one party. (At that point, the ALP should quote John Howard when he said he didn’t believe in mandate politics.)

    But then Abbott would have to risk a 2nd election on something that people are less and less worried about (Whyalla is still there, Tony). People don’t like elections after all and we would get round 2 of the same Abbott hyperventilating in a high vis jacket about the non-event carbon tax.

    And if they are honest about the immense cost to taxpayers of voiding carbon permits and the billions and billions in costing of their own approach to carbon pricing (which they explicitly have), then they might not win, let alone control both houses.

    Alert moderator

    ace leo ace :
    11 Jan 2013 5:26:57pm
    The coalition will not have a mandate because they will not have the courage to put it so starkly to the electorate before the election.

    This will be one of the final occasions in which we hear “carbon tax” and “referendum” in the same sentence from the coalition.

    Just like the winding back of the rhetoric around the budget surplus going from

    “its the right thing to do” to

    “hell or high water” to

    “considering global economic conditions…”

    the Liberal party will wind back their rhetoric from

    “I stake my political life” to

    “the next election will be a referendum on the carbon tax” to

    “its an important part of our policy approach” to

    “the coalition has a range of policies to address climate change” to

    “considering budgetary and political realities….”

    Although it is quite clear that a Liberal government would be able to spin the planned transition to an ETS as their own “scrapping of the great big tax”. They will probably even rebadge it with their own branding, possibly even incorporating the words “action” or “direct” not that Greg Hunt MP was willing to utter those words in this polemic, although the fact he didn’t backs up my first point.

    Alert moderator

    Hunt Faced Coward :
    11 Jan 2013 5:15:22pm
    Hunt re-writes the political rules.
    “Therefore, no matter what they say now, I expect that a defeated ALP under a new leader would not block the repeal of the carbon tax. Otherwise they would face an immediate double dissolution election”

    Such a BIG threat for such a little guy.
    Bring it on.

    Alert moderator

    tonyw :

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4460656.html

    General trend of comments. Nothing but unrealistic spin.

  98. Says absolutely nothing Treeman but as it conforms to your blinkered view you quote it.

    Abbott is a lying bastard, religious nut, mysogynist, baby killer, ready to destroy the planet when he takes over the world with his Gestapo secret army! Not only that but he has no chance on earth of beating that Joan of Arc heroine Gillard.

    But at least that part of it is absolutely correct. Proves the right can something correct every now and again.

    That the whole thing is an exaggerated factless piece of nonsensical tripe and Treeman quotes it doesn’t say much about Treeman either.

  99. Breath deep and say it like a mantra
    CO2 is the greenhouse gas of warming
    CO2 is the greenhouse gas of warming
    CO2 is the greenhouse gas of warming
    CO2 is the greenhouse gas of warming
    CO2 is the greenhouse gas of warming
    CO2 is the greenhouse gas of warming
    Ommmmmmmmmm

  100. ME
    “as it conforms to your blinkered view you quote it.”

    And just like a true robot you did exactly that!

    No wonder your gravatar is biting it’s arse…
    Own Goal Ecko…Own Goal Ecko…Own Goal Ecko….Own Goal Ecko

  101. When is ‘the Carbon Tax’ not a Tax? You can call it anything you like to
    try to deceive youselves. Call it . . . . . .
    -a levy
    -a duty
    -an impost
    -a fee
    -a Gov Scheme to raise money
    -a scheme
    Any receipt of money by the Federal Gov from Australians is a Tax! !
    And poor buggers like you and I pay !

  102. To all those Carbon Tax Wizards.
    CO2 represents less than .03% of the Earths atmosphere, very simply
    the prestly erupting volcano at Manam NE Coast of PNG is pumping out daily
    more CO2 than the whole of Australia does in a year. Simarly those evil Kiwis
    with their foul smelling gysers around Rotarua do similar irrepairable damage.
    And have been forever. Remeber learning about Pompei?
    Just think how many current erruptions spew into the atmosphere worldwide
    on a daily basis.
    Go down to the beach and cool off. Take a bucket with you and start bailing
    out the ocean – there is a remarkable similarity.

  103. When is ‘the Carbon Tax’ not a Tax? You can call it anything you like to
    try to deceive youselves. Call it . . . . . .
    -a levy
    -a duty
    -an impost
    -a fee
    -a Gov Scheme to raise money
    -a scheme
    Any receipt of money by the Federal Gov from Australians is a Tax! !
    And poor buggers like you and I pay !

    My goodness, VOYAGER, you carry on like it’s the only tax or levy ever imposed upon us.

  104. And a comment from Shane on this blog two years ago:

    Tony Abbott is shouting from the roof tops about the proposal to introduce a flood levy as he claims we do not need to as our economy is strong and we can save the money in other ways. He claims there is no need to inflict the public with another levy.

    I would like to point out the hypocrisy of these kneejerk comments in comparison to the levy for everything government he was a member of between 1996 and 2007.

    In 1997 our budget DEFICIT was 5.4 billion and a gun buyback levy was imposed as a result of the tragic massacre in Tasmania. While this was a tragedy and the removal of guns fully supported by myself, there was no natural disaster or infrastructure decimation. The levy imposed simply bought back guns people owned. The Levy went from Oct 1996 to Sep 1997. We were in deficit so OK we needed a levy for a one off event.

    In 1999 our budget SURPLUS was 4.3 billion and a Stevedoring Levy was introduced out of ideological determination to break the MUA and Industrial Reform. This levy lasted from 1999 to May 2006. We were in surplus so under Abbott’s rulings this levy should not have been introduced as we had enough money collected as taxes already.

    In 2000 our budget SURPLUS was 13 billion and an 11c a litre levy was introduced as a result of ideological determination to deregulate the dairy industry which forced thousand of farmers off the properties to pay them an exit grant. This was supposed to reduce milk prices to the public. It simply reduced milk prices to the farmers sending thousands of them to the wall. This levy was in existence from 2000 until it was abolished by the Rudd Government in 2009. This was an extremely expensive levy placed on the public as milk is a staple. We were in surplus so under Abbott’s rulings this levy should not have been introduced as we had enough money collected as taxes already.

    In 2000 we also had the East Timor Levy at a time when our budget was in surplus by 13 billion dollars. We were in surplus so under Abbott’s rulings this levy should not have been introduced as we had enough money collected as taxes already.

    In 2001 Our budget SURPLUS was 5.9 billion and a levy of $10 per return flight ticket was introduced to compensate workers who lost their entitlements due to the collapse of a privately owned business who did not provide allowance for employee benefits. This levy lasted from Sep 2001 to June 2003. In addition $100 million of the funds raised was used for airport security and nothing to do with Ansett employees. We were in surplus so under Abbott’s rulings this levy should not have been introduced as we had enough money collected as taxes already.

    In 2003 our budget was in SURPLUS by 7.4 billion dollars and a 3c per kilo levy on sugar was introduced as a result of ideological determination by the government to deregulate and reform the sugar industry. This levy ran from Jan 2003 to November 2006. Once again a savage levy on the general public. We were in surplus so under Abbott’s rulings this levy should not have been introduced as we had enough money collected as taxes already.

    So while the levy for everything government has massive surpluses they slugged us via levies with a summary as follows.

    1996- Gun Levy
    1997- Gun Levy
    1998- No Levies
    1999- Stevedoring Levy
    2000- Stevedoring Levy-Milk Levy-East Timor Levy
    2001 – Stevedoring Levy-Milk Levy-Ansett Levy
    2002- Stevedoring Levy-Milk Levy-Ansett Levy
    2003- Stevedoring Levy-Milk Levy-Ansett Levy-Sugar Levy
    2004-Stevedoring Levy-Milk Levy-Sugar Levy
    2005- Stevedoring Levy-Milk Levy-Sugar Levy
    2006- Stevedoring Levy-Milk Levy-Sugar Levy
    2007- Milk Levy

    In addition other than the gun buyback and Ansett levy the other levies were political ideology deregulation levies. Not one levy was as a result of a natural disaster effecting thousands of people but rather ideology busting.

    Now Tony please re convince me of your argument that this government does not need to introduce a levy.

  105. Two State Liberal governments are introducing fire levies, but not a peep from Abbott.

    Wonder if it’s because they are Liberal State governments?

    Also there were a lot more levies and charges MIn. There’s a list somewhere as some were obscure and bought in piggy backed on other legislation.

    Howard’s government. Biggest taxing, most levies, most profligate, most wasteful, largest revenue intake with least services and infrastructure spending and the failures go on.

  106. “prestly erupting volcano at Manam NE Coast of PNG is pumping out daily
    more CO2 than the whole of Australia does in a year.”

    Bullshit Voyager. Why do the wingnuts fall for bum stats every time.

    It’s not less than 0.03% it’s 0.039%. A basic fact gotten wrong. And man made CO2 is an even smaller amount than that.

    Now that you’ve bought up the fact of the percentage can you tell us how much radiative forcing that CO2 produces. And CO2 is not even the worst of the greenhouse gases. But you wouldn’t have a clue why most of the attention is being paid to it rather than things like water vapour or methane would you?

    Just ignorantly shoot off at the mouth at some out of context stat that was probably posted on a rabid right wing blog railing about global conspiracies and the left wing plot to take over the world.

  107. ‘And CO2 is not even the worst of the greenhouse gases. ‘

    Sir, sir….methane…and water vapour is the biggest greenhouse gas.

  108. At least I know you understand the principals of it el gordo even with your convolutions and confabulations.

    “Sir, sir….methane…and water vapour is the biggest greenhouse gas.”

    I said that in my response el gordo. Today’s quiz.

    Why are they concentrating on eliminating CO2 rather than water vapour or methane?

    Clue. The answer can easily be found on the Interwebs and there are many scientific papers on it.

  109. the prestly erupting volcano at Manam NE Coast of PNG is pumping out daily more CO2 than the whole of Australia does in a year.

    You got any supporting evidence Voyager? From a reputable site?

    Australia emitted 430 million tonnes in 2011. How much is your volcano “pumping out”?

    I’ll be most surprised IF you can come up with anything, given the volcano scientists estimate the total from all volcanoes, on land and under the sea is less than half that amount 🙄

    Gas studies at volcanoes worldwide have helped volcanologists tally up a global volcanic CO2 budget in the same way that nations around the globe have cooperated to determine how much CO2 is released by human activity through the burning of fossil fuels. Our studies show that globally, volcanoes on land and under the sea release a total of about 200 million tonnes of CO2 annually.

    This seems like a huge amount of CO2, but a visit to the U.S. Department of Energy’s Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC) website (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/) helps anyone armed with a handheld calculator and a high school chemistry text put the volcanic CO2 tally into perspective. Because while 200 million tonnes of CO2 is large, the global fossil fuel CO2 emissions for 2003 tipped the scales at 26.8 billion tonnes. Thus, not only does volcanic CO2 not dwarf that of human activity, it actually comprises less than 1 percent of that value.

    http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/archive/2007/07_02_15.html

  110. So Mr. Abbott will give us a more stable government. What is unstable about the economy or the government today.
    Both seem to be functioning as well as one can expect.

    Can we afford to put the present stability at risk, in the unstable world we now live in?

    ….Australians are unlikely to celebrate Prime Minister Julia Gillard’s milestone of matching Kevin Rudd’s time in the Lodge, Warren Truss says.

    On Sunday, Ms Gillard will have been prime minister for 935 days since she seized the top job from Mr Rudd in June 2010.

    Mr Truss said Ms Gillard might celebrate beating her rival’s record.

    ‘The Australian people will not celebrate the record of either,’ he said in a statement on Sunday.

    He said the two Labor prime ministers since November 2007 had similar records.

    ‘With more debt, deficits, waste, boats, broken promises and increasing cost of living pressures on families,’ Mr Truss said.

    Mr Truss said Ms Gillard promised to fix border security, the budget and the mining tax upon becoming prime minister.

    ‘Julia Gillard has failed on all three counts,’ he said.

    Mr Truss said Labor had deteriorated under Mr Rudd and Ms Gillard.

    ‘Only a change of government will deliver Australia the good, competent and stable government that our country deserves,’ he said.

    ‘The coalition, under Tony Abbott, has plans to create a strong and prosperous economy and a safe and secure Australia.’

    A federal election has to be held by November 30 this year…

    http://www.skynews.com.au/politics/article.aspx?id=835126

  111. It always gets me Bacchus when the wingnuts come out with ludicrous false statements like volcanoes and/or forest fires emit more CO2 than humans.

    They read it unsourced on a right wing site somewhere and then go shooting it off anywhere they can without a single thought to giving a moment to check the facts.

    It’s the same reason they always fall for the scams and false information.

  112. Show on ABC 24 at this time. “Who makes the news” Anyone interested in the history of the ABC, this is worth watching it.

  113. Yes Mö – that one sounded so ludicrous I just had to check its veracity. Unsurprisingly, Voyager was out by a massive order of magnitude (The annual emissions from ALL volcanoes are less than half of Australia’s emissions 🙄

  114. The burning of fossil fuels and changes in land use results in the emission into the atmosphere of approximately 30 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide per year worldwide, according to the EIA. The fossil fuels emissions numbers are about 100 times bigger than even the maximum estimated volcanic CO2 fluxes. Our understanding of volcanic discharges would have to be shown to be very mistaken before volcanic CO2 discharges could be considered anything but a bit player in contributing to the recent changes observed in the concentration of CO2 in the Earth’s atmosphere

    Just a ‘bit player’.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/volcanoes-and-global-warming.htm

    And then there is Truss:

    On Wednesday, leader of the National Party and acting Opposition Leader, Warren Truss claimed carbon emissions from the current bushfires are equivalent to decades of carbon emissions from coal-fired power.

    But wait:

    Bushfires this year have so far burned around 130,000ha of forest, so have emitted nearly 4 million tonnes of CO2.

    So, the bushfires this year have emitted an amount of CO2 equivalent to 2% of Australia’s annual emissions from coal-fired power …

    when one drills into the data, the current bushfires provide a stark illustration of the opposite: the amount of carbon that is emitted by bushfires is insignificant relative to our principle sources of greenhouse gas emissions such as coal-fired power

    http://theconversation.edu.au/fact-check-do-bushfires-emit-more-carbon-than-burning-coal-11543

  115. tree, you have to look hard to find that comment. Wondering what the following commenters had to say.

    Read the link to the PM’s expenses. Could not find anything outstanding there. If there are, maybe they need to be pointed out.

    All seemed to be connected to her role as PM.

  116. ‘Why are they concentrating on eliminating CO2 rather than water vapour or methane?’

    Not sure, last I heard its a harmless trace gas.

  117. Thanks Sue. that is the one. I tune in late and did not know where it came from, If I lived in their electoratesd, they would be getting my vote over Labor. Yes, I am a Labor voter, but also believe the system is enriched by good independents,

  118. Yes, we had all those levees under Howard. Do not also remember all the things that became user paid. Also, such things as the GES and child care that was lobbed off to the private sector.

    Then there was the sell off of government assesses. Not may left to sell today.

    Definitely not about building for the future. More about demolishing everything in their path.

    Labor builds. Liberals demolishes. .

  119. Yes, I have seen that bushfires releases carbon, Also seen, in the same article that regeneration of the bush, would soak much of it back, This does not occur with fossil fuel power companies.

  120. Did the idiot Truss read the report from the IMF that confirmed that Howard’s Govt. were the worst economic managers of all time. Old Wassa has gone silent on that report just like the grubs at News Ltd. The idiot Truss did get one thing correct though when he mentioned the carbon tax “lie”. It was a lie because Whyalla did not get wiped off the map, my lamb roast didn’t cost $100 like Barny said, life goes and once again Tone was caught out being a liar. Tone and Wass, the Larry and Curley of Australian politics. The most hopelessly inept and morally corrupt Opposition of all time.

  121. Drop the abuse please because it lowers the tone of this otherwise fine blog

    Drop the lies, tortuously inane comments and post a fact then I may consider it. Until then I extend the unanimous invitation from us all to again “Fuck Off” 🙄

    Of course that would have nothing to do with the fact that McMahon handed over to the Whitlam Labor Government negative net debt of 1.6% of GDP which by 1983-84 had risen to 7.5% of GDP and peaked at 18.1% of GDP in 1995-96 during the fiscal fuckups of the Keating government would it now?

    You do of course realise that Whitlam handed Fraser Zero debt. 40 billion of Hawke and Keating’s debt was actually John Howard’s (Australia’s worst treasurer) debt, which is half. Fiscal Fuckups? 🙄 What like deregulation of the banking system, the accord and floating the dollar you economic illiterate. Tell me one prudent economic reform Costello instigated apart from selling 71 billion dollars’ worth of public assets? Now we need to buy Telstra back to build the NBN due to short term vision of a luddite government.

    Disgruntled Employee?

    What a fucking philistine you are off your tree man.

    are you also a promoter of Mugabe?

    No but I know a Mug when I read one, congratulations you take the cake, a Mug you be.

    Say it like a mantra

    What a Mug, What a mug , what a mug….. 🙂

  122. Tell me one prudent economic reform Costello instigated

    Well he did sell $2b of our gold reserves at the bottom of the market (2/3 of our gold in a single day into a buyers market).

    The gold price was then $US306.00 an ounce, it’s currently $US1662.00 😆 😆

  123. Costello actually did one good thing and eventually spoke one truth.

    He bought in, or more accurately finalised, the banking and financial institutions regulations that put them in such good stead for the GFC. This was something Keating espoused but was stymied by the Howard opposition, as were several other economic policies that Howard eventually took up.

    To give Costello his due this policy was well framed and written and required little tweaking unlike just about every one of Howard’s other policies that were poorly written and implemented disasters.

    Costello’s one truth was when he said that Howard was profligate. Only wish he’s espoused that much earlier in Howard’s reign.

    By the way Howard as opposition leader worked with Keating on economic reform in unprecedented bipartisanship. That Howard was to later stab Keating with personal information he gleaned during that close working relationship and then went on to benefit from the reforms that were Keating’s ideas and he assisted with is another story.

  124. Miglo January 13, 2013 @ 7:07 pm
    Drop the lies, tortuously inane comments and post a fact then I may consider it.
    Ricky, I reckon you just scored a gotchya.

    Just pointing out the obvious, he posts bullshit I remind him of it. Its pretty boring reminding the town idiot he is a factless ranting troll

    Iain Hall January 13, 2013 @ 8:29 pm Migs
    Did you miss my Gillard citation in all wish to pat your attack dog on the head

    Wasn’t Tony Abbott Howards Attack Dog, Now they have an attack Cabbage.
    Is the implication that I am attacking you because I point out you are an inane factless troll, hopelessly failing to engage with this fine blog?

    Don’t you get it, we are Not interested in you insults, opinion, lies and bullshit. This is a blog for those who are interested in the truth, unlike your attention seeking rants.

    Hall the invitation is still open to fuck off from the “FINE LEFT WING BLOG”

  125. Rciky
    A quick inspection of the author list here does not show you as one of those who write for the Cafe so it is rather presumptuous of you to appoint yourself as gatekeeper to a blog that you don’t even write for let alone one you don’t have any ownership of.

  126. I also join the chorus of those who bitterly opposed Fraser and his tactics in overthrowing Whitlam yet recognise and applaud his decision to quit the Liberal Party for the reasons he has stated.
    If a grumbling old lefty like myself can now look on Malcolm with even some degree of warmth, then how much worse has the Liberal Party become since Howard?

  127. Hall, I believe there are many here that echo the sentiments of Ricky. Not necessary using the same words.

    It is also presumptuous of you to continue to tell us how this site should be run and for you to tell us how to behave and think.

  128. Florence
    As far as I can tell the only thing that keeps this blog lively is the fact that it has not fallen into the trap of excluding all opinions that don’t conform to the Groupthink so beloved by the left. There have been many lefty sites which were run the way that Rciky and your own good self dream about and they have all died of chronic dullness.
    As for telling you “how this site should be run” I am doing no such thing but Rciky is.

  129. Hall, if so, why do you continue to come. Bullshit of the highest order.

    Where are all the comments, that say you are the Saviour of this blog. See many, saying the opposite.

    What I get from your numerous and tedious comments, is “me” “me” and how clever I am.
    comments that you now make, I fail to comprehend what you are attempting to say.

    PS. I also note, that most seem to slide by your comments, making no reply. Must say they are the sensible one, as nothing said sinks into you brain.

  130. CO2 is the gas of life

    If only you actually believed that load of old cobblers, Treetroll, I’d be only too happy to lock you in a roomful of the stuff. It would be very interesting to hear your mantra. May I suggest you chant “I am a complete twat.” as you lapse into unconsciousness.

    Why do the wingnuts fall for bum stats every time.

    Because it suits them, ME. Anything approaching facts or the truth causes even more severe brain malfunction than usual in your average wingnut, as is evidenced by the wingnut trolls who peddle their fantasies on this site.

    Bacchus, it’s pity poor old Tip flushed $5bn big ones down the gurgler when he flogged off the gold reserves, just as he did when he engaged in currency swaps-$10bn at a single stroke.

    Thank God he wasn’t in charge of the till when the GFC happened along-another fact that doesn’t suit the trolls, like the definition of a tax. Comprehension obviously isn’t a highly regarded skill among Liars barrackers.

    Has anyone else noticed that wingnuts are never able to coherently explain why budget surpluses are not only desirable, but mandatory, unless you count “because they are” as a well constructed argument in favour of surpluses?

  131. I don’t see any of your articles published. I have not been invited to submit. I’m the self appointed gate keeper of bullshit artists and attention seeking liars. Notice only trolls that I call out with lies and derogatory comments swathed in factless opinion have a problem with my posts, funny that. I also notice you are following my new blog.

  132. Hall, how many have told you to get lost. Not are accommodating as Migs.

    Why abuse the privilege he gives you, in allowing you to make comments.

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