Editorial bullshit

I’m not in the habit of reading the Herald Sun’s editorial. Actually, this morning’s was the first one I’ve ever read and I curse the individual who suggested I do so. In future if I want to read what Murdoch’s editors are thinking about I’ll grab a copy of Mein Kampf.

This morning’s editorial was written by a person equally as mad. A clear-thinking person could not have written such bullshit. I will dissect it in parts to support my claim. We begin:

The Gillard Government has finally admitted what Australians have long suspected to be the case. Its promised Budget surplus was nothing more than a political fantasy.

Economic data made it clear Labor’s much promised surplus was unachievable. Yet the Prime Minister and Treasurer belligerently stuck to their mantra in what can only be described as a cynical political ploy.

They should have admitted the inevitable long ego. The economic decision is the right one, as the Herald Sun has consistently advocated in the face of falling revenues and slowing growth.

Let’s see if I understand this. The decision is supported by the editor’s newspaper and more or less expected by the Australian community. Nothing wrong there. Labor are responding to the economic data at hand and, again, I see nothing wrong there either. All of a sudden our editor sees this as a cynical political ploy, which means he does not read Murdoch’s masthead paper, The Australian who almost two months ago wrote that “For a second day, Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan have refused to directly guarantee a budget surplus in 2012-13“. Sort of admitting the inevitable, in a way.

The editorial continues with:

But the Government ignored all warnings and has damaged consumer confidence in announcing what they should have come to terms with months ago.

People will ask, not unreasonably, if they can ever trust this Government.

Where is the evidence to support this? The evidence I found was the complete contrary to that claim. From Roy Morgan Research we learn that:

The weekly Morgan Consumer Confidence Rating is now at 117.4pts (up 2.4pts over the past week). Consumer Confidence is now a significant 6.2pts higher than a year ago, December 3/4, 2011 — 111.2.

Driving the rise was more confidence in Australia’s economic future and also in personal financial situations compared to a year ago.

Australians are more confident about Australia’s economy over the next twelve months with 32% (up 2%) of Australians expecting ‘good times’ economically compared to 28% (down 3%) that expect ‘bad times’.

Now 33% (up 1%) of Australians say their family is ‘better off’ financially compared to a year ago while 29% (down 4%) say their family is ‘worse off’ financially.

Over the next five years 35% (unchanged) of Australians expect Australia’s economy to have ‘good times’ economically while just 18% (down 3%) expect ‘bad times’ – the lowest since May 12/13, 2012.

Australians are more positive about their personal finances over the next 12 months with 39% (down 1%) saying they expect their family to be ‘better off’ financially while just 18% (up 2%) expect to be ‘worse off’ financially.

Unsurprisingly, the editor took a swipe at Labor’s economic credentials:

. . . ineptitude and political cynicism was behind the promise of a Budget surplus. It was to convince voters Labor was in control of the economy when clearly it was not.

Meanwhile, in the real world outside of the editor’s office:

The OECD’s latest economic survey of Australia released today shows once again that our economy stands tall amongst its peers, with 21 consecutive years of growth, robust economic fundamentals and a positive outlook in the face of acute global challenges.

The OECD finds that, unlike many developed economies, the Australian economy remains resilient, with successful macroeconomic management contributing to solid growth, low unemployment, contained inflation, and strong public finances.

The OECD commends the Government’s “exemplary handling of the global economic and financial crisis” avoiding recession in 2008-09.

Although the OECD notes our economy is not immune from risks in the global economy, the survey notes that “[t]he current monetary and fiscal policy mix is appropriate to sustain recovery, and Australia is in a good position to respond to risks.”

The report also highlights that the Government’s fiscal consolidation is part of a re-balancing of policy which “implies less pressure on interest and exchange rates, thereby alleviating adjustment difficulties for the exposed non-mining sector.”

While we understand that not everyone is doing it easy, this OECD report today is another reminder that Australians have a lot to be proud of and confident about.

Would the Herald Sun editor be bullshitting? Of course he would. Here’s why:

Today, the Herald Sun renews its call for the Prime Minister to call an election in March to allow the Australian people to decide who should govern this country.

Yes, in other words let’s organise a distraction from Tony Abbott’s embarrassing performances and Labor’s jump in the polls.

275 comments on “Editorial bullshit

  1. He had to do it Migs

    Slipper due in court at 9.30, so Abbott has to go on holiday at 9.29. Well so does Pyne, Hockey, Entsch, Bishop, Robb ( well he just goes back on snooze after his one text yesterday).

  2. As you say, your mistake was to ignore your first sentence. A Murdoch editorial is a nonsense wrapped up in a pomposity, written by superfluous self-important yesterday’s men and published by a corrupt.organisation.

  3. Migs, you’re on a roll, just as well it’s the quiet/silly season, or your typing fingers would be worn to mere stubs! 😯

    Another fine summation. 😀

    Daryl, don’t just beat around the bush, say what you really mean! 😆
    Nicely put. 😀

    Cheers 😀 😀

  4. Really how is the HS editorial that different to the utterances of say Michelle Gratten of Fairfax?

    Despite some recent softening-up for a possible change, the surplus promise is so long-standing and so often reiterated over the years that the impact of having to walk away from it is politically huge.
    Advertisement

    The opposition can crow. It has said all along that the government would never deliver a surplus and, if Labor loses the election, that (probably) will be true.

    Swan cracked hardy. ”If the worst thing that people say is we got the economics right again but fell short on the politics, well I just say, so be it”, he said. He knows things don’t work like that. This is not an economic problem for the government – it is a political one. It goes to trust and credibility. Trust, or lack of it, is Gillard’s underlying vulnerability – notably, when it comes to policy, since she broke her word on the carbon tax.

    There are so many quotes to throw back at the government. On December 7 Gillard said: ”Our last economic update had us at trend growth and that’s why the last economic update had us with a surplus. We are still determined to deliver the surplus.”

    Leader of the House Anthony Albanese is looking particularly red-faced. On Sky on Sunday he was asked: ”If you had to walk through a door and your life depended on it, is the government going to deliver a surplus or is it going to fall into a small deficit in May?” He was unequivocal: ”Well, the government’s going to deliver a surplus. That’s our policy. That’s what we’ve been working towards.”

    The broken promise on a surplus is rather different in nature from the ”no carbon tax” one – circumstances have changed – but they can easily be bundled together.

    Tony Abbott was quick to link them: ”You just can’t trust this government to manage the economy. You just can’t trust this government to tell the truth.”

    At his news conference, Swan was awkwardly reminded that in 2008 he had talked about a ”temporary” deficit, and there had been a deficit ever since. For good reasons, certainly, but words and pledges come back to haunt politicians.

    Swan insists the government is doing fine in managing the economy. He says spending restraint will continue. It’s just that it would be counterproductive, threatening jobs, to try to fill what has become – on the latest figures released on Thursday – an even larger gaping revenue hole. ”In just four months, we’ve already seen the full hit to revenue that we were expecting for the whole year,” Swan said.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/surplus-swansong-leaves-labor-in-stormy-waters-20121220-2bpis.html#ixzz2FddeaDDC

  5. If it sounds like bullshit, looks like bullshit and smells like bullshit, it’s bullshit.
    Nice work Miglo.

  6. Someone should look into this.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/swan-firm-on-surplus-as-tax-revenue-falls-20120307-1uknk.html

    Yesterday’s national accounts showed company tax revenue up 4.5 per cent over the first six months of the financial year. The May budget had forecast an increase of 29 per cent over the entire year, revised down in November to an increase of 21 per cent.”

    So compant tax revenue is up but the budget forecast an increase in company tax revenue of 29%. Yeah right. As if company tax would increase by that much. A 4.5% increase sounds more normal. Has Wayne Swan so politicised Treasury that they are now publishing falsehoods to paint the govt in a good light??

    I would say most Public Servants are Labor supporters who hate the Coalition. They do not give good advice but like to help the ALP. Even tell lies for them.

  7. And I, Neil and Gordo, could say that most rightwing trolls are liars and idiots. But I won’t, because rash generalisations like that lack a critical thought process, and thoughtful, intelligent, well informed people tend to think before they speak. (or write) Hence Tony Abbott’ and Joe Hockeys’ myriad, foot in mouth problems!

  8. Yes it’s bullshit of the highest order. Bullshit most pure. Bullshit that could only be held together by the fear that a lot of thinking people are beginning to see through the LNP and their richest supporters.

  9. A lot of public servants certainly do hate the Coalition. Their constant lying and bullying had a lot to do with it.

    I’m glad you picked up on that, Neil, ably supported by your new best friend el gordo. What an astute, intuitive pair you are.

  10. Neil and,

    Has Wayne Swan so politicised Treasury that they are now publishing falsehoods to paint the govt in a good light??

    Officials would have stand by their numbers which they obtain via research. IF they were deliberately publishing falsehoods they would be guilty of corruption. Is this an accusation? Do you have any proof?

  11. Well there was that one notable Treasury Official who had falsehoods published.

    Godwin Grech emails published in fact headlined across Murdoch publications, thank you Steve Lewis. Steve Lewis, the man who likes to befriend political turncoats who put their beliefs and desires before complying with the rules of public service.

  12. “Officials would have stand by their numbers which they obtain via research

    If the link I posted is correct Swan/Treasury forecast an increase in Company tax revenue of 29%. Most companies would be happy with an increase of 4.5% which is still above the inflation rate.

    29% is way above inflation. There is something wrong with this prediction.

  13. Another $2.4B borrowed this week. Retail would challenge the consumer confidence and the OECD are not the economic gurus like some believe.

    Spin it all you like, Swan and Gillard took the surplus promise as part of their 2010 election platform and still held the belief as recently as just over a week ago.

    A $27-29B deficit awaits!

    To be fair…the opposition took the surplus to the people in 2010.

  14. Another $2.4B borrowed this week

    Yep! But do you have any understanding of why?

    Here’s a quote:

    Here’s something to think about next time you hear someone bang on about the growing level of gross government debt in Australia – over the next five and probably 10 years, the Australian government will continue to borrow money, thereby boosting the level of gross government debt, whether it needs the money or not

    “Whether it needs the money or not.” Got that. Also:

    the amount of government gross debt in dollar terms will rise forever …

    So despite which side wins the next election, despite the overblown rhetoric from some about the rise in gross government debt and working on the reasonable assumption that we are set to get a run of budget surpluses, gross debt will rise.

    LinK: http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Swan-Gillard-Costello-government-debt-bond-market–pd20121102-ZMQRM?OpenDocument&src=sph&src=rot

    And there are any number of articles that make the same point.

  15. Another Dullard / Swan lie. The more you lie the better you get at it.
    The Question for them to answer is : ‘ When did you first realize this
    Budget Promise was unachievable?’
    ALP aka Australian Liars Party – win
    Australian Voters – lose

  16. If the link I posted is correct Swan/Treasury forecast an increase in Company tax revenue of 29%. Most companies would be happy with an increase of 4.5% which is still above the inflation rate.

    See the table I produced on the “Let’s focus…” thread. You’re showing even more ignorance than usual here Neil. Company tax revenue was forecast to rise 29%, not individual company profit 🙄

  17. Maybe when they said, this week when the last lot of figures was produced. There was hope that the ore prices would turn about, which they have by the way, but not enough.

    Oh Yes, there was a billion collected from the MRRT. Also the global situation has worsened, not improved as it was hoped.

  18. Maybe someone can correct me, but I understand our annual budget is over five trillion. What percentage would a 10 billion deficit amounts too.

    What is the difference between a tiny surplus, and small deficit. I suggest not much that can be measured.

    The deficit is still 40 or more million less than last year.

    Not exactly a failure in anyones eyes.

  19. Company tax revenue was forecast to rise 29%, not individual company profit”

    Yes it was forecast to be 29% and was actually 4.5%. That has to translate into less company profit surely??

    How can Treasury get it forecasts so wrong??

    Are they all labor supporters trying to help out their team??

  20. Cu, from your link..

    They had been faced with coming back from Christmas holidays and starting an election campaign having to find at least $15 billion in new spending cuts for no good economic reason. In fact business and markets were pushing for a deficit so the Reserve Bank didn’t have to do all the work in countering the strong currency.

  21. Min, listening to the noise coming from the other side, one would think the sky had fallen in. All that occirred was the prospect that there might be samlla deficit, which in itself is a vast improvement on last years.

    Now, it appears Labor should be able to see into the future. Bert there are a lot of Capitalists out there that wish they could.

    I have never seen any action taken by a government get so much support from all in the business community, and so mucg angst against the government that took the action.

    We have Mr. Hockey demanding a PM . who has yaken very little leave, even with the death of her father, come back from holidays, so Abbott can put the boot into her.

    It apperars that the PM is not even allowed to spend a little time with her mother, who is facing her first Christmas without her father.

    Hockey accused the PM of having no guts. From a party, where their leader refuses to face the media over a serious court judgement, that affects his party.

    I note that Ashby is now approaching FWA. Any news of Thomson’s action today.

    Once again, it is much ado about nothing.

  22. Lawyers for James Ashby plan to file his sexual harassment case against former parliamentary Speaker Peter Slipper with Fair Work Australia.

    A spokesman for Mr Ashby told reporters outside the Federal Court in Sydney an appeal against the court’s recent dismissal of the case would be lodged in mid January.

    Anthony McClellan, a spokesman for Mr Ashby and Harmers Workplace Lawyers, said that contrary to some public perceptions Mr Ashby’s sexual harassment case against Mr Slipper had not been heard in court.

    “No judicial finding has been made as to whether James was sexually harassed by Mr Slipper.”

    He said the only matter that had been heard over the past eight months was Mr Slipper’s abuse of process case.

    Mr McClellan said the aim of filing the case with Fair Work Australia was so the whole evidence and witnesses could be tested in open court at the appropriate time.

    “This is designed to preserve and protect James’ legal rights,” Mr McClellan said.

    Federal Court judge Steven Rares last week dismissed Mr Ashby’s case as an abuse of process and said it amounted to a “political attack” against Mr Slipper.

    Justice Rares also said in his judgment that Mr Ashby’s “unreasonable acts of instituting and prosecuting the proceedings” had caused Mr Slipper to incur costs.

    In court this morning, Justice Rares disqualified himself from hearing Mr Slipper’s applications for full costs to be paid by Mr Ashby and his lawyer Michael Harmer.

    “It would be more appropriate for another judge to hear the application against Harmers,” Justice Rares said.

    Justice Harmer adjourned the matter until February 6 for a directions hearing before another judge……….

    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Ashby-to-appeal-court-case-36VFF?OpenDocument&src=rab

  23. Lawyers for James Ashby plan to file his sexual harassment case against former parliamentary Speaker Peter Slipper with Fair Work Australia.

    A spokesman for Mr Ashby told reporters outside the Federal Court in Sydney an appeal against the court’s recent dismissal of the case would be lodged in mid January.

    Anthony McClellan, a spokesman for Mr Ashby and Harmers Workplace Lawyers, said that contrary to some public perceptions Mr Ashby’s sexual harassment case against Mr Slipper had not been heard in court.

    “No judicial finding has been made as to whether James was sexually harassed by Mr Slipper.”

    He said the only matter that had been heard over the past eight months was Mr Slipper’s abuse of process case.

    Mr McClellan said the aim of filing the case with Fair Work Australia was so the whole evidence and witnesses could be tested in open court at the appropriate time.

    “This is designed to preserve and protect James’ legal rights,” Mr McClellan said.

    Federal Court judge Steven Rares last week dismissed Mr Ashby’s case as an abuse of process and said it amounted to a “political attack” against Mr Slipper.

    Justice Rares also said in his judgment that Mr Ashby’s “unreasonable acts of instituting and prosecuting the proceedings” had caused Mr Slipper to incur costs.

    In court this morning, Justice Rares disqualified himself from hearing Mr Slipper’s applications for full costs to be paid by Mr Ashby and his lawyer Michael Harmer.

    “It would be more appropriate for another judge to hear the application against Harmers,” Justice Rares said.

    Justice Harmer adjourned the matter until February 6 for a directions hearing before another judge….

  24. CU

    I would like to know i f Slipper can go for an abuse of process claim in FWA.
    Ashby, apparently, wants a court to only look at his unwitnessed allegations during the period Jan 2012 until February 2012. And also only his selected texts during that period. I wonder who Ashby could call as a witness, if as he has already stated the incident occurred how he has stated in his claim.

  25. Mig. You continue to be a dreamer. Gillard’s term will go down as the Wasted Years.
    More debt, a wasted mining boom and now the economy going into flat line and Swannie has used up most of his $300 Billion line of credit.
    Denial of another deficit (fifth in 5 years) until Swannie had to fess up.
    The good thing that comes out of this debacle of a government? … Abbott has all the ammunition and public support into the antics of the Slater Gordon AWU affair, the HSU and CFMEU activities, Craig, Williamson.
    What a vote winner promising to get rid of the Carbon tax and a Judicial inquiry into Unions.
    Got me.

  26. I am confused as to what occurred today.

    Is Ashby appealing the present judgement as well as launching new matter in FWA.

    I believe that Justice Rares has disqualified himself from the cost hearings of Mr. Slipper.

    A justice Harmer has deferred the matter to the first week in February.

    I would think that id Ashby attempted at this time to cherry pick his allegations, that Slipper would be able to use the original allegations as evidence. I do not see how he could keep such matters out of the court.

    The judgement is unprecedented, and I would say that is why the AG and the government are not too sure where it can end up.

    It is a shame the media cannot help us to understand by providing some the legal experts to explain what is going on.

    Murkier than ever.

    In my opinion, going on what we have been allow to read, there is any proof of sexual harassment,

    I believe that Ashby, would have had at the very least, asked Mr. Slipper to cease the behavior.

    There must be some legal experts that can help.

  27. My partner is an academic lecturer and they were giving delivered Sunday telegraph subscriptions away free to staff. She told the old guy across the street to take it as it made me too angry 😦 I love how they said I told you so as if they are a source of profound power.

  28. Tweed, the term The Wasted Years has for quite a long time belonged to one JW Howard in that he wasted the years of opportunity and built nothing.

  29. Tweed, have you not noticed, the business and all other experts are saying what occurred yesterday was the correct thing to do.

    Have not seen one, supporting Mr, Abbott’s point of view.

    Any criticism of Labor is minor.

  30. Min watched most on the TV. Have just cleaned the computer, clearing out all links. Will put it up as soon as I come across it again.

  31. Business has known for a long time that the surplus renewal was unachievable.

    What exactly is Abbott’s point of view on this?

  32. Dear Florence,
    During 2012, my colleagues and I have been developing our plans to build a stronger economy that will deliver more jobs, higher wages and better services for Australian families.

    Labor’s $150 billion net debt, its record deficits, new taxes, 20,900 new regulations and rising cost of living, have all taken their toll on the economy and the confidence of Australians.

    Since the last election, we have listened to Australians about their lives and hopes for the future and we have consulted with experts about the challenges and opportunities that face our nation.

    During the year, we have released many of our plans to strengthen the economy, including:
    Establishing a Commission of Audit and getting government spending under control.
    Abolishing the carbon tax and taking pressure off electricity and gas bills.
    Cutting red tape and green tape for every Australian business by introducing our deregulation reform agenda
    Lifting productivity through greater workforce participation measures like better paid parental leave and work for the dole.
    Restoring confidence and certainty to the mining sector through scrapping the mining tax.
    Investing in 21st century infrastructure with big new road projects underway within 12 months of a change of government.
    Doubling the rate of new small businesses starting up.
    Stamping out lawlessness in workplaces by restoring the Australian Building and Construction Commission.
    Establishing closer links with Asia through our two way Colombo plan and greater foreign languages taught in schools.
    Re-introducing proven and effective policies on our borders.

    In total, these plans will bring the Budget back under control; lower taxes; increase productivity and foster closer relationships with the region, to seize the opportunities of the growing Asian economy.

    Our priority is to create a powerhouse economy through lower taxes, more efficient government and more productive businesses. I am confident that with our plans, the Australian economy can create one million new jobs in five years and two million jobs within a decade.

    Most importantly of all, our plans will restore the confidence and certainty that our country desperately needs if we are to again grow a strong and prosperous economy.

    During 2013, the Coalition will make further announcements about our plans to create a strong and prosperous economy and a safe and secure Australia.

    Regards

    Tony Abbott
    Leader of the Opposition

    More bullshit.

  33. El gordo, the latest is that going on the available figures, Mr. Abbott would not have a surplus.

    Was not questioned on how he would bring this miracle about.

    Mr. Hockey was not so forthcoming.

  34. Min, don’t contest the last government’s non achievement but what the hell has this government built??? The NBN does not count in my opinion of nation building.

    What will the next coalition government build? Nothing. What will the next Labor government build? Nothing.

  35. Cu, exactly..it’s bullshit, a waffling standard letter of course bulk mailed..which of course I don’t need to point out to a person with your experience of such things.

    will deliver more jobs, higher wages and better services for Australian families. By cutting 20,000 public service jobs which cuts yet more jobs such as the local sandwich bar, the office cleaning company, and that’s just a few of those immediately effected.

    How do you deliver more jobs and better services by sacking the people who provide the services?

    And of course “higher wages” translated means “more flexibility”..for the mums working part-time on an on-call basis with no overtime, no annual leave and a 15min meal break..that is, if you’re lucky.

  36. el gordo, business is saying they do not want a surplus at this time. Are happy with the progress that is being achieved now,

    I am sick of hearing, every time the matter is mentioned, are having a strong attack from the Opposition.

    Why not, with strong support from the business, welfare and others. That is the truth.

    Why not add, the Opposition seems to be the odd man out. Yhey are standing alone with their condemnation.

  37. Scaper, here you go..

    Over the last 2 years, the Federal Labor Government has been working hard to build Australia’s future. Here are some highlights.

    We abolished WorkChoices
    We have increased hospital funding by 50%
    We have increased the age pension by more than $100 for singles and $76 for couples.
    When we were all threatened by the GFC we did what we had to do and Australia came through stronger than most countries.
    We have developed a single national school curriculum with a focus on the basics.
    We are investing in new cancer research and treatment centres.
    We are funding over 1,000 new nurse training places every year and now we’ll have an additional 1,300 GPs qualified or in training by 2013.
    We’re currently delivering Trade Training Centres for 732 schools and over the next three years we’ll ensure another 520 schools have access to one.
    We have cut taxes in the last three budgets.
    There is record investment in infrastructure like highways, rail and ports.
    We are building a National Broadband Networ
    We are creating 130,000 new education and training places and 50,000 university places.

  38. Scaper, did I say it was not.

    Just like to see both sides put forward.

    Yes, for once I agree, the standard lies and weasel words from Mr. Abbott.

    I wonder how I got on the mailing list.

  39. Scaper, you can retract that statement as it gives the impression that you are suggesting that Cu falsified the letter via your statement “lifted from their site”.

  40. Scaper how dare you say I stole it. Look, it says “Dear Florence”. It turned up in my mail box. As they come, I post them, as I believe all need to know exactly what he is saying.

    A funny mind, you do have, Now complaining because I out Mr. Abbott;s letter up.

    Sorry I lost the formatting, but the words are still there.

  41. Hope. Reward. Opportunity. http://www.liberal.org.au Is this email not displaying correctly?
    View it in your browser.

    Dear Florence,
    During 2012, my colleagues and I have been developing our plans to build a stronger economy that will deliver more jobs, higher wages and better services for Australian families.

    Labor’s $150 billion net debt, its record deficits, new taxes, 20,900 new regulations and rising cost of living, have all taken their toll on the economy and the confidence of Australians.

    Since the last election, we have listened to Australians about their lives and hopes for the future and we have consulted with experts about the challenges and opportunities that face our nation.

    During the year, we have released many of our plans to strengthen the economy, including:
    Establishing a Commission of Audit and getting government spending under control.
    Abolishing the carbon tax and taking pressure off electricity and gas bills.
    Cutting red tape and green tape for every Australian business by introducing our deregulation reform agenda
    Lifting productivity through greater workforce participation measures like better paid parental leave and work for the dole.
    Restoring confidence and certainty to the mining sector through scrapping the mining tax.
    Investing in 21st century infrastructure with big new road projects underway within 12 months of a change of government.
    Doubling the rate of new small businesses starting up.
    Stamping out lawlessness in workplaces by restoring the Australian Building and Construction Commission.
    Establishing closer links with Asia through our two way Colombo plan and greater foreign languages taught in schools.
    Re-introducing proven and effective policies on our borders.

    In total, these plans will bring the Budget back under control; lower taxes; increase productivity and foster closer relationships with the region, to seize the opportunities of the growing Asian economy.

    Our priority is to create a powerhouse economy through lower taxes, more efficient government and more productive businesses. I am confident that with our plans, the Australian economy can create one million new jobs in five years and two million jobs within a decade.

    Most importantly of all, our plans will restore the confidence and certainty that our country desperately needs if we are to again grow a strong and prosperous economy.

    During 2013, the Coalition will make further announcements about our plans to create a strong and prosperous economy and a safe and secure Australia.

    Regards

    Tony Abbott
    Leader of the Opposition

    Share on your social media networks:

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  42. James Ashby will continue to pursue his sexual harassment case against former Federal Speaker Peter Slipper, declaring that he will take the matter to the workplace watchdog, Fair Work Australia, as well as appeal the recent Federal Court decision against him.
    A spokesman for Mr Ashby told reporters outside the Federal Court in Sydney an appeal against the court’s recent dismissal of the case would be lodged in mid-January.
    Speaking on behalf of Mr Ashby as Mr Slipper’s former aide looked on, media spokesman Anthony McClellan said they were planning to lodge Mr Ashby’s case with Fair Work Australia on Friday afternoon, “with the aim that the whole evidence and that the witnesses can be tested in open court”.

    In January, they would lodge a separate appeal against the Federal Court’s recent decision that the sexual harassment case lodged in that court was an abuse of the judicial process designed to damage Mr Slipper’s reputation for personal and political gain.
    Advertisement
    Mr Ashby had claimed he was the target of ”unwelcome sexual advances, unwelcome sexual comments and unwelcome suggestions of a sexual nature” while working as Mr Slipper’s aide and media adviser between January and March this year.
    Mr McClellan said: “Contrary to some public perceptions, James Ashby’s sexual harassment case against Mr Slipper has not been heard in court and no judicial finding has been made as to whether James was sexually harassed by Mr Slipper.”

    James Ashby (left) with Anthony McClellan after the Federal Court ruling on December 12. Photo: Wolter Peeters
    “The only matter that’s been heard over the past eight months was Mr Slipper’s abuse of process case.”
    “Later today we are planning to file James Ashby’s sexual harassment case with Fair Work Australia, with the aim that the whole evidence and that the witnesses can be tested in open court at the appropriate time. This is designed to preserve and protect James’s legal rights.”
    Mr McClellan said that Harmers Workplace Lawyers, which was strongly criticised by Federal Court Justice Steven Rares as being part of the abuse of process, would continue to represent Mr Ashby.

    The former Speaker of the Federal Parliament, Peter Slipper. Photo: Mick Tsikas
    In dismissing the sexual harassment case from the Federal Court as an abuse of process on December 12, Justice Steven Rares found that it was a planned political attack devised by Mr Ashby in combination with fellow Slipper aide Karen Doane and with the assistance of the former Howard government minister Mal Brough and Mr Ashby’s solicitor, Michael Harmer.
    He found that by March 29 this year, Mr Ashby and Ms Doane had decided to make allegations of sexual harassment in legal proceedings against Mr Slipper and would assist Mr Brough and the News Ltd journalist Steve Lewis to “damage Mr Slipper in the public eye and political arena with any information they could find”.
    At the same time, the two aides had begun talking to Mr Brough about new job opportunities they believed would open up to them within the Queensland Liberal National Party.
    About a month later, Justice Rares found, Michael Harmer filed an originating application on Mr Ashby’s behalf that contained irrelevant and scandalous allegations relating to the use of Cabcharges and an incident involving Mr Slipper and a junior staffer in 2003, the sole purpose of which was to damage Mr Slipper politically.
    Another application was filed in May, a few days before the matter was due to come before court, in which these two allegations were not included.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/ashby-to-appeal-slipper-sexual-harassment-ruling-20121221-2bqfw.html#ixzz2FfS6TwIi

  43. http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Ashby-to-appeal-court-case-36VFF?OpenDocument&src=rab

    ustice Rares also said in his judgment that Mr Ashby’s “unreasonable acts of instituting and prosecuting the proceedings” had caused Mr Slipper to incur costs.

    In court this morning, Justice Rares disqualified himself from hearing Mr Slipper’s applications for full costs to be paid by Mr Ashby and his lawyer Michael Harmer.

    “It would be more appropriate for another judge to hear the application against Harmers,” Justice Rares said.

    Justice Harmer adjourned the matter until February 6 for a directions hearing before another judge.

  44. Cu, I would suspect one heap of grandstanding..FWA? Step 1 is mediation. I kinda get the impression that this is not what Ashy and his backers (pushers?) want, but rather to keep the issue in the headlines so as to have maximum political impact..just as Justice Rares said they were doing.

  45. Cu, they certainly got that one wrong..

    Justice Harmer adjourned the matter until February 6 for a directions hearing before another judge. It’s Justice Rares, Michael Harmer is certainly not Justice Harmer.

  46. Min, I said I was confused. Came to the conclusion they were talking about two different men. Believe you are right. Bad reporting, but what is new.

  47. Show on ABC24 named “Who makes the news”. It Is talking about the days of Whitllam throught to Hawke and the old parlieamnt. Well done.

  48. On Justice Rares disqualifying himself..this is an appropriate course of action as the adjudication against Ashby’s case was abuse of process. It should therefore be up to another judge to decide how strong this judgement is, this is the ethical thing to do.

  49. Ricky @5.15

    those Tele’s have probably been given away to boost circulation numbers. giveaways are part of the News Ltd bag of tricks, used extensively in Europe, part of a misleading campaign circulation v sales. It would even go through the books as say Sales, where for example a University would “buy” bundles of papers to be left for free use by students. Money never exchanged, it was all through a promotional budget. But for News Ltd is was important to have such inflated circulation numbers as the “numbers” were used as evidence for advertising sales and advertising prices. Those pesky Europeans worked out what News were upto and fined them.

  50. Yes Min, I would expect that. For the rest. I believe they need to go back and rewrite it.

    Even wixxy apoligise today for getting it wrong. He thought Pier Akerman was at court last week, in the Thomson matter. It was Pier’s daughter, Pia. Understandable mistake. wixxy was generous in his apology.

  51. Min, I was talking about your cut and paste. This government, in my opinion has been the worst ever and don’t expect much from the next.

    Not interested in barracking as that is the base problem of the woeful politics today.

  52. Sue, this PM had been on the go continually for the last couple of years.

    The PM has only taken a few days off, at a time. Each ttime she has had to break her holiday, and come back to work.

    I believe in would be in hers and ourr interest, if she took three weeks or longer.

    Next year will be full on. Needs to be prepared.

  53. Scaper, hence the reason why it’s wise to address the person so that we know who you are talking about.

    I personally think that this government could have done a lot more and should have spent one hell less time concerning itself with what Abbott’s latest raving rant was.

    The current opposition is very much like a blog troll..ignores the issues, continuously tries to derail reasonable debate and has nothing to offer as an alternative.

  54. Min
    Hockey wrote:
    “According to Wayne Swan Julia Gillard agrees to ditch surplus then goes on holiday……..that’s real leadership. Real courage”

    On the tasteless level Hockey just about hits the Tony Abbott scale.

  55. Especially since it is the first time she has had off since her father died. She has been continually on the go, in and out of the country.

    This will not be a happy Christmas for her or for her mother.

    This lady has more guts in her little finger that Abbott and Co have in their whole party.

    It will be another slight she will store away until the appropriate time to reply.

  56. Andrew Laming is all style and class (sarcasm alert)..from his Facebook page..

    Andrew Laming MP Teo Treloar- the simple point is that even when they promise 200 times, it means shit, just like a carbon tax promise.

    I suggested to Mr. Lame-ing that swearing does not add to a debate. 😀

  57. el gordo
    December 21, 2012 @ 11:57 am
    ‘I would say most Public Servants are Labor supporters who hate the Coalition.’
    Fair comment.

    Fair? Gord Gordo….. At least wave the bait over the hook . “Hate” is a worn out word, like genius, legend, consultant…. Dislike maybe.

    But hold onto that thought as the ideology of neocon hatred of a public service is well and truly simultaneously in play in three states

    I dare say the ones that love the neocon cowboys of the flopositon have received their redundancies and now contract consult back to the departments for double the pay.

    Or maybe they just have good taste?

    scaper…
    December 21, 2012 @ 5:31 pm
    Min, don’t contest the last government’s non achievement but what the hell has this government built??? The NBN does not count in my opinion of nation building.

    A fair indication of your blinkered white cane, zombie vision. Sadly you’re happy to rest on that case Scraper. Such ignorance is astounding. Have you heard the earth is actually round.

    We futurists have a saying; some people build a city with a hammer. Others just hit themselves on the thumb repeatedly give up and blame the hammer.

    sue
    December 21, 2012 @ 6:46 pm
    Ricky @5.15
    those Tele’s have probably been given away to boost circulation numbers

    Absolutely. Nobody in their “right” mind would pay for the telegraph.

    scaper…
    December 21, 2012 @ 6:50 pm
    Min, I was talking about your cut and paste. This government, in my opinion has been the worst ever and don’t expect much from the next.
    Not interested in barracking as that is the base problem of the woeful politics today.

    Scraper if you hate everyone what is your game? Antagonist? Self-promoting flagellation? Self-loathing deprivation? I can call you names if you like but we draw the line a spanking, maybe ask Nil he may accommodate.

    Like I said you big bad assed troll..Buy a puppy.

    Catching up
    December 21, 2012 @ 8:05 pm

    Especially since it is the first time she has had off since her father died. She has been continually on the go, in and out of the country.

    This will not be a happy Christmas for her or for her mother.

    I was thinking the same thing and it was a topic of conversation at the Bolo over drinks this afternoon. I can speak from personal experience, it is the hardest and harshest reality of losing your father. Missing him at the Chrissy table and feeling for your mothers loss.

  58. Tweed – a very good summary of the current position.
    The unanswered question remains.
    ‘When did Dillard/Swan first realize the Budget Surplus could never be achieved?’
    Was it – yesterday
    – last week
    – last month
    – 3months ago
    Herein is the Lie sorry lack of truthfulness to all Australians.
    Mighty good Liars, but remember the Ballot Box will not lie.

  59. Off his Treeman
    December 21, 2012 @ 10:18 pm
    Here’s some real bullshit for you…

    Indeed





    And the Best of All “The DNA of Tony’s Front Bench”

  60. Tree, does it really matter.

    Of course the decision could not have been made when the last figures became available in the last few days,. That would be beyond belief in your eyes.

    Now, I know that you have no interested in whether it was the right decicion or not. Things such as that does not interest you.

    Funny that Mr. Abbott and Co are you the only ones saying it is not. Saying that ther ,magic surplus must be pursued, regardless of whether it sends the economy into free fall ot not.

    Does not matter that the budget is still on track to bring in a surplus, just a little later than planned.

    No doing what is correct is not an option for a Labor government.

    Tree, come back with some names that are supporting Abbott’s position.

    Tree, go and grow up.

  61. From Tim Blair

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/promised_land/

    “Wayne Swan, May 2010:
    We now expect a surplus in three years, three years ahead of schedule.

    Julia Gillard, August 2010:
    The Budget will be back in surplus in 2013 if I’m re-elected.

    Wayne Swan, August 2010 :
    Well, we’re getting back into surplus in three years. Come hell or high water.

    Julia Gillard, August 2010:
    The Budget is coming back to surplus, no ifs no buts it will happen.

    Julia Gillard, November 2010:
    The budget will be back in the black, back in surplus in 2012-13 … as promised.

    Wayne Swan, April 2011 :
    We see the surplus in 12-13 as being absolutely fundamental.

    Julia Gillard, April 2011:
    My commitment to a surplus in 2012-13 was a promise made and it will be honoured.

    Wayne Swan, May 2011:
    We’ll be back in the black by 2012/13, as promised.

    Julia Gillard, May 2011:
    We’ll bring the budget to surplus in 2012-13, exactly as promised.

    Wayne Swan, August 2011:
    I believe we will attain those forecasts, coming back to surplus in 2012/13.

    Wayne Swan, August 2011:
    The government remains absolutely committed to delivering our return to surplus as we planned.

    Wayne Swan, February 2012:
    I am determined to produce a surplus in 2012-2013. We have got our colours nailed to the mast.

    Wayne Swan, March 2012:
    Despite the tough global conditions, we remain determined to return the budget to surplus in 2012/13, and we will get there.

    Julia Gillard, November 2012:
    We stand by the predictions, the entries in the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook. We stand by the figures and we’re on track to deliver a budget surplus.

    Wayne Swan, December 2012:
    It’s appropriate that we return to surplus.

    Wayne Swan, December 2012:
    It’s unlikely that there will be a surplus in 2012/13.

  62. After the next election, according to the punters, joolya will write her biography and probably marry a hairdresser.

    She might also start her own political party and you can still get 13/1 that the ex-PM will rejoin Slater & Gordon or 500/1 that she becomes a hairdresser like her husband.

  63. Why do you think there will not be a surplus as predicted. Could not because the dollar has stayed high, no matter what the RBA does. Then the fall in commodity prices that was not expected early or as much, has not occurred.

    Are you saying that this government has not taken as much action as possible to bring in the surplus.

    ‘It does not matter that the budget deficit will be some 40 million dollars less this year than last.

    What is the difference between a small surplus and a small deficit.

    Mr, Abbott will much be feeing lonely tonight with the lack pf suppirt he got from business and many from his side of the fence.

    So the only thing that counts today is a surplus, even if it destroys the economy to bring it about.,

  64. HA, F*’n HA….. a piece of ‘straw’ flutters by…. and even Trees-on-ism comes out from under the bridge, just like his hero, Abbortt 🙄 … and a clutch, clutch, here and a ‘etc’ there …here a …. there a ……. every where a *paid for* editor…. compilers of straw ….self preservation-ism-ist clutcher 🙄 …. one wonders if we’ll all be ‘rooned’ by xmas….. one wonders how it got like this … how the media bias can hold ‘sway’, with ‘NO’ questions asked ….and one wonders how ‘them there players’ can say and ‘report’ what they say….with ‘NO’ questions asked….. don’t they understand the ‘unwritten law’ of fair F*’n dinkom mate, pull the other one…. a law with ‘real’ bite…. sorta, kinda like that tall-poppy rule….. push limits, pay price….or fool some of the people..etc,etc…. ah, redundancy.. something most reporters will never get… 😆 …seems to be a surplus of straw on/in this thread… just say’n 😉

  65. When McClellan announced that Ashby was going to appeal, Channel 7 described him as Ashby’s “lawyer” rather than “media advisor.” Did not know he had legal qualifications, or is Channel 7 fibbing?

    Why choose FWA? Maybe McClellan is hoping Lawler will preside over the case.

  66. Voyager and Treeman. If you have access to Sky News have a look at Peter Van Onselen in Contrarians last night. Peter V made a bet with Swannie over a year ago that if Swannie produced a Surplus then he, Peter, would shave his head.
    To answer your question. Swannie and Gillard obviously new the Surplus was a lie when they brought down the MYEFO. If you recall they brought it down the day before the first Mining Tax payments were to be made. Any normal organisation would wait a day to confirm the income of a New Tax to see if it produced the forcast income.
    Noooo slippery Spin Merchants Gillard and Swan got their MYEFO in hours before the bad news that their tax was a dud. The Australian had been reporting the New Mining Tax would raise no revenue….. and they were correct.
    I wonder if Swannie is going to shave his head?
    As I have said many times before Swannies eyes are just that tad too close together to instill confidence.
    ……… and Gillard is still in hiding over the Surplus that never was.

  67. Jesus Lovo there is enough straw on this thread for about a thousand head in a drought. I nearly laffed my pecker off when I read from Tweed (I wonder if that’s a Scottish thing ?) but I digest. Yea where was I ? Weed said, sorry Tweed said, and he was asking the two resident wing nut know alls (He didn’t include Hall) Um even the wing nuts hate im. Did voyager and Treeman have access to Sky News ?

    I was thinking,(Yea I know) it’s a joke right? Asking two of the resident wing nuts if they have access to Sky News is like, asking a heroin addict if he/she has access to drugs. Of course they have access to Sky News it’s mandatory in every wing nuts house through out the land. They watch it 24/7 with two minutes off to gives us, that us being at Cafe Whisperers our daily comedy routine. They are selling houses now with a T.V. in the shitter, that way the wing nuts don’t have to miss a thing.

    I wonder what it must be like trying to get your leg over and watch Sky News at the same time? .

  68. Miglo wrote”Where is the evidence to support that (People will ask, not unreasonably, if they can ever trust this Government)

    He then goes on to describe Australia’s economic credentials, the health or otherwise of which have nothing to do with Swan and Gillard’s trustworthiness..

    Miglo, no matter how hard you try polishing Labor today the stink remains.
    You then concluded “Yes, in other words let’s organise a distraction from Tony Abbott’s embarrassing performances and Labor’s jump in the polls”

    Labor’s only jump in the polls has been down, back to pre shout around the world days…http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/polling

    Sure is plenty of straw in this bullshit thread!

  69. PJ
    I have never in my life watched Sky news, I mainly get my news from your ABC and the Fairfax press. Its rather foolish to think that we conservatives are stupid, we just don’t carry the same silly socialist baggage that so burdens you. As for the claim that others here hate me, well that is just projection on your part because you are too enfeebled intellectually to understand that its possible to disagree with someone over politics and society and not hate them for it.

  70. I see the trolls are up early this morning, they must have crapped the bed and decided to come and smear some of it over the Cafe!

    Any determination that conservatives are stupid, are not based on inherent conservatism, but rather the inherent stupidity shown in the comments made!

    Cheers 😆 😯 😀

  71. As could be expected, zero debate on the economy..the fact that all leading economists stated that the government would be foolish to attempt to return to a surplus. The only thing which matters is not the welfare and future of the country but cheap political point scoring along the “she lied” theme. I personally do not give a flying fck if a person/political party changes their mind as long as it’s for the benefit of the country. Hell! If a miracle occurred and Tony Abbott came up with some half way decent policies (ie changed his mind) would I call him a liar? That would be moronic in the extreme.

  72. Troll, I see that your level of comprehension hasn’t improved!

    I said nothing about being ashamed, I am up just after 4.am most mornings.
    I made reference to the fact that you and tree troll were up early smearing shit as usual! 😛

    Cheers

  73. Min
    you are mistaken to think that this topic is ALL about the economy or even the decisions made by the government about how to manage it. the essential topic here is the inept way that Labor have handled the politics and the way taht they have tried to hide this abandonment of a solemn commitment, which even many of the Latte sipping persuasion concede should never have been made in the first place.

  74. ‘Today, the Herald Sun renews its call for the Prime Minister to call an election in March to allow the Australian people to decide who should govern this country.’

    Damn good advice, because an Easter election would give Labor a chance to minimise the carnage. If they wait and go the full term the world economic situation and high power bills will have a very negative impact on Labor support.

  75. El Gordo
    I think that Labor will wait until the last possible election date because its back bench members will need to be desperate to collect their members salary for as long as possible given the fact that they are going to be in the wilderness for more time than they care to think about.
    TS
    It will be my pleasure for you to win the prize for the most scatological commenter here 😉

  76. Yes Truth Seeker, doomed forever to be wrong in everything posted and to vaucously head nod with the derisory nonsense posted by the zombie trolls here.

    Very sad indeed that a person has to go life being wrong all the time.

  77. ‘the most scatological commenter here’

    If that’s ‘black humour’ then I accept the award with humility and pride.

  78. Ha ha el gordo, you even got that wrong, it wasn’t about you it was against TS, Truth Seeker.

    Wrong again.

    And Ian judging and giving prizes on anything has to be the most meaningless exercise around and demonstrates how up themselves they are.

  79. ME
    It was TS who wanted to award prizes not I

    El Gordo
    I will suggest that is humour of a more brown tone, if it were black that would be indicative of bleeding in the gastrointestinal tract and in that event it would be wise for TS to consult his doctor immediately…

  80. Again troll, you are showing how bad your comprehension is, I would not award you a prize for anything, but i can’t be bothered explaining it.

    What an idiot! 😛

    Cheers 😆

  81. Iain Hall
    December 22, 2012 @ 6:35 am
    PJ
    I have never in my life watched Sky news, I mainly get my news from your ABC and the Fairfax press. Its rather foolish to think that we conservatives are stupid, we just don’t carry the same silly socialist baggage that so burdens you. As for the claim that others here hate me,
    I don’t hate you Iain 🙂 and its our Aunty

    Min
    December 22, 2012 @ 7:03 am
    As could be expected, zero debate on the economy
    Did you expect anything less? Most of the trolls don’t even bother to read the topic 😈 They aren’t interested in debate (Scraper and Off his treeman don’t even know the meaning of the word) which is apparent by their refusal to tell us 6 attributes of character that would have us all enamored with Tony Abbotts metrosexual honesty. Maybe that’s my Christmas present? 🙄

    el gordo
    December 22, 2012 @ 7:58 am
    ‘Today, the Herald Sun renews its call for the Prime Minister to call an election in March to allow the Australian people to decide who should govern this country.’
    Damn good advice,

    El gordo, On that premise why don’t we all just vote for Murdoch and be done with it.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/20/bernstein-murdoch-ailes-petreaus-presidency

    Iain Hall
    December 22, 2012 @ 8:07 am
    El Gordo
    I think that Labor……

    Iain, you’re making it hard again.. 🙄

    Focus… Editorial bullshit…Economy.

  82. scaper…
    December 22, 2012 @ 9:29 am

    Min, you expect debate? This place is a debate free zone but plenty of name calling.

    What`s` the punchline?

  83. Ricky (Truth Serving Tory Troll Trasher) @ 9:08 am

    I don’t hate you Iain 🙂 and its our Aunty

    Well I’m glad to hear that you don’t hate me Ricky and you are right about the ABC being an auntie to all of us, now of only she would act like it by being more balanced I would be very pleased indeed.

    Min
    December 22, 2012 @ 7:03 am
    As could be expected, zero debate on the economy

    Did you expect anything less? Most of the trolls don’t even bother to read the topic 😈 They aren’t interested in debate (Scraper and Off his treeman don’t even know the meaning of the word) which is apparent by their refusal to tell us 6 attributes of character that would have us all enamoured with Tony Abbott’s metro-sexual honesty. Maybe that’s my Christmas present? 🙄

    Ricky your problem is that you think that “debate” means arguments that convince you to change your opinion, far better if you consider that comment threads are an ongoing conversation and a bit of spirited banter rather than being at all definitive about any topic or issue.

    Iain, you’re making it hard again.. 🙄

    Focus… Editorial bullshit…Economy.

    No Ricky its all about the conversation and having a bit of fun

    Oh and I want to congratulate you on attempting to Use the the right HTML prompts in your comment it does help a great deal!

  84. I have only one suggestion for any future posts you make regarding the Murdoch crowd. Use the words “echo chamber”. Excellent post by the way.

  85. ‘…why don’t we all just vote for Murdoch and be done with it.’

    Rupert has always been a king maker, he often gets it badly wrong.

  86. Did someone suggest, talking about the economy has nothing to do with whether one trusts the treasurer and the PM.

    Sorry that is the only thing that one takes into consideration, when deciding whether to trust both.

    No, we do not hate those that make comments from the right. Why would we consider them important enough to waste such emotion on.

    Yes, we certainly do not show them much respect. The right themselves seem to have the need to hate all those who do not share their views, Have no idea why, unless they cannot mount an argument without personal abuse. Maybe that is because there does not exist such to mount.

    Now it appears, that Mr. Abbott is now on a campaign against the bias he sees in the ABC. Could the problem be. That for the first time in our living memory, he is being asked questions. He walks away from any question he does not like.

    In London he walked away when questions where raise about Bough. The result was that the reported agree not to go down that path and he came back, to complete the interview.

    So now, are we going to see in every interview, if questions do not please him. He clams up and walks off, with that smirk on his face.

  87. CU, you say “why would we consider them important enough to waste such emotion on”.

    Then why all the abuse? Looks pretty emotional from where I sit.

    How’s the five trillion dollar economy coming along?

  88. Yes, I agree that Abbitt might win the next election. That is what democracy is about. The voter, sadly does not always get it right, but that is their choice, There is always another election to follow.

    If one believes that Abbott will win the day, and line up for a second win, have rocks in their head for brains. I cannot even see talent in those who sit on the seats behind him, to save the day for the Liberals.

  89. Col,

    Thanks for that link to the Business Spectator yesterday on the ongoing need for government debt (3.04pm)

    I made exactly the same points here about 18 months ago when trying to educate one “Geoff” (who had an economics degree for chrisake). Maybe this site needs a FAQ section on economics and banking for our conservative friends for whom this stuff seems to be so difficult.

    I recall explaining to “Geoff” (since disappeared) that there was some real anxiety about there not being enough CGS paper available in the market for the new capital needs of our banks. Because the deficit was SO SMALL I think the RBA was going to create some special drawing rights for the banks in case they got caught short.

    What does this tell us about government debt ?

    In many ways it’s a bit like the carbon tax… initially useful for frightening small children but on closer analysis, serving a useful purpose.

    What’s also interesting is that no bank economist (or Alan Kohler type) will ever come out and explain it. You have to dig for the info.

  90. scaper, I always return serve.

    Now you might have noted, when you read my comment, I asked if my figures were right.

    I also said budget. Not sure if that is the same as economy.. Now, is the chance to let me in on your great knowledge. It was only a figure I picked up in passing. Please scaper, put me right.

    What is a fact, that deficit, even if the higher rate of predictions, at a 15 million deficit, is a tiny, wee , little percentage of the overall budget. Means nothing in an economic sense. What is important the country is still heading back to a surplus. Well at least that is what all the experts were saying all day, yesterday.

    I have seen a tweet suggesting that Mr. Abbott should spend the break doing a little reading. Suggest that some who come here, would benefit from taking up the same occupation. Stay away from the fiction, from what is commented here, not needed.

  91. CU, your figure of five trillion dollars for the ‘budget’ has to be the most inane statement I have read, concerning economics.

    For someone that Min calls a great researcher I thought you would be on top of it. Here is a link so you can learn yourself.

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/overview/html/overview_44.htm

    The first column is revenue, second is expenses. You were a tad out on your five trillion dollars. It is you that should do a bit of reading during the break.

  92. As Soon as I read the article from Google Search and saw the editor i googled him and sure enough it was another of Murdoch’s. Enough said.

  93. As surely as night follows day, right-wing media will feed the audience Spin and bullshit.

    The Australian mainstream media audience, immersed in the output an Orwellian right wing media noise machine, is DROWNING in Spin and BS.

    It’s always how right-wing media will be. They cannot tell the truth about politics, as to do so would defeat the agenda the rabid right seeks to pursue with the compliance of their media.

    If the mass media were to tell The Truth – about economics, which party is the better economic manager, about the policies of the respective parties, the merits and otherwise of each Party and their representatives – the CONservatives would be shown up for what they are – coldhearted zealots who seek to advance the interests of the One Per Cent, at the expense of the middle, working and poorer classes.

    So as long as we have a mass media landscape dominated as it is by the rotten right, bits of truth will be as rare as specks of gold.

    That’s why the ‘thinking’ portion of the population are deserting the toxic Old Media and coming to blogs such as the Cafe, and to Social Media, where the rotten right doesn’t hold such sway. Being brainwashed is for dummies, not for us!

  94. scaper thanks for that. Now that you are so good at maths, can you tell me what percentage of the overall budget, is 15 billion, in a budget of trillions.

    Just so we know what we are condemning the PM and Mr. Swan for.

    scaper does your research show, even when not reaching the political target, it is still 40 billion less than last year. Does your research show the budget is still heading for a surplus. Just that the timetable has been extended.

    Does your research show that this government , in the last three, I believe. the budget has gone down the path of the greatest budget consolidation in Australia’s history, that they have lowered taxes.

    The lowering of taxes is something that Mr Hewson, from the Liberals pointed out yesterday, should not have occurred.

    Great to see you going after real facts, even if one had to play the idiot to lull you in.

    Yes, scaper good to see you join in the debate that is now happening. Hope to hear more from you in the same vein.

    Much better than telling us what to think, and how bad we are.

  95. MJ another one that is worth following up.

    Anyone who lives in the western suburbs, near such places as Merrylands Gardens and around Chipping Norton Lakes can be thankful for the moeny that was spent bu\y previoius Labor government, in their battle against unemployment.

    All that was considered waste at the time, as is labor spending today. Ask your granparents where they took your parents if one wanted a barbecue or picnic, near ones home.

    The only place I can remember schools taking the kids, was to the dusty and hot Campletown Showground, or the trip of a couple hours to the beach.

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=22139

  96. Jack thank-you for that blog link, really interesting 🙂 maybe turnbull should read it and he would havea different opinion on the floating helipad outside his house 🙂

    Cograduations on the puppy and your first fact. You must be so proud.

  97. ‘Being brainwashed is for dummies, not for us!’

    The Australian Brainwashing Corporation has done a good job on you. Nobody there believes our star has anything to do with our earthly climate, even though Mars warms and cools according to solar rules.

  98. el gordo

    Is your assertion merely directed at the ABC or are you also directing that at climate scientists? Second, are you really going to use Mars and an analogy for Earth in terms of the relationship between a planet and its star?

  99. The ABC pushes climate change denial propaganda with every bit as much zeal as News Limited does, el gordo. Try to be honest or intelligent, because at the moment, you’re neither.

  100. Mangrove Jack , Yes i am afraid that there is a lot of myths re government debt and the so called ‘bad’ effects it will have. Take the alleged connection between government debt and interest rates. It’s a favouritetheme for Tony Abbott, Joe Hockey and that other economic genius Barnaby Joyce. I note also that a few of the ‘local’ experts repeat that mantra also. Back to Tony.

    I think that if the Government wasn’t borrowing $100 million every single day it would be a lot easier for the banks to keep interest rates down. Everyone needs to understand that when the Government is out there borrowing $100 million every single day, there is going to be upwards pressure on interest rates. So, the best thing the Government can do to help the Australian people is get its own spending under control.

    But as Greg Jericho demonstrates:

    This doesn’t mean that less Government debt will increase interest rates, nor vice versa. What it means is they really have no connection

    No connection! You can check out the ‘figures’ here.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3957366.html

  101. Iain Hall
    December 22, 2012 @ 9:57 am
    Well I’m glad to hear that you don’t hate me Ricky and you are right about the ABC being an auntie to all of us, now of only she would act like it by being more balanced I would be very pleased indeed.

    You obviously don’t watch the drum. Q and A unbalanced? Insiders unbalanced? I think not.

    Iain Hall
    December 22, 2012 @ 7:03 am
    Ricky your problem is

    Iian I don’t have a problem. Thanks for the lesson on debating, however with that type of attitude you would be fried in a millisecond in any debating society. Fun at who’s expense? So you’re here to just throw factless opinion out in the ether? Interesting.:roll:

  102. ” PJ
    I have never in my life watched Sky news, I mainly get my news from your ABC and the Fairfax press. Its rather foolish to think that we conservatives are stupid,”

    Iain it is not foolish to think conservatives are stupid. I know they’re stupid, it is self evident, undeniable. No more is this more certain in your case. In fact in your case, it is worthy of special investigation, a case study let’s say.. You are not only stupid, but delusional with it, you think you know everything, and have an air of superiority I haven’t experienced after being on this orb for over sixty years

    As for your denial you don’t watch Sky News, in your case that’s probably true. I don’t believe you watch any news. I would go further and make the point, you have probably never ever read a book either.. It is quite obvious you have had a limited education from the fact, you don’t have an original thought in your head. If not for Andrew Bolt and other vile racist right wing web sites I know you comment on, most of your comments would appear thus.

    My name is Iain Hall
    …………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….the end.

  103. P.J.
    December 22, 2012 @ 3:10 pm
    , and have an air of superiority Inferiority

    See I don’t get that. It’s “painfully” 😥 obvious by the substance of Iians posts he is a political pygmy who avoids anything technical as he is way out of his depth beyond cnt C cnt V. He thinks he understands media and quotes bolt, that’s like classifying a cheeseburger from macca’s as fine dining.

  104. Good video, missed that one. I suppose Ch7 and Kochie is now being bias and picking on poor5 Tony.

    Should be compulsory viewing.

    Promise that needed to be broken.

    Abbott. A promise that should have been delivered on.

    Kochie, cutting spending pulls a country down. Abbott did not answer that one.

    Abbott will have to do much better, I believe.

    There must be someone that supports the Abbott’s view.

  105. Re that Sunrise video. What an economic joke Abbott is. He had a three word slogan and he was going to repeat it no matter what the question was. When he did have to answer with anything approaching intelligence he compares apples with pears and comes up sour grapes.

  106. P.J.
    December 22, 2012 @ 3:10 pm
    I know you comment on, most of your comments would appear thus.
    My name is Iain Hall

    Priceless PJ, Add Scraper and Nil to the list. 🙂

  107. ‘Is your assertion merely directed at the ABC or are you also directing that at climate scientists?’

    Aunty is the propaganda arm, along with Fairfax.

    The Klimatariat, IPCC et al, are guilty of faking it.

  108. “When he did have to answer with anything approaching intelligence he compares apples with pears and comes up sour grapes.”

    There must be another post in that one.

    That is what we have been seeing for the last two years, with the emphasis on “sour grapes”.

  109. Hockey was refusing to be drawn into that one yesterday. Must have been pulled into line over night.

    Watching the man’s body language, one gets the feeling that Hockey is finding himself becoming more uncomfortable with what he is expected to say.,

    Wonder when he will get a spine, and tell the master, enough is enough.

  110. Joe Hockey recasts Coalition surplus pledge
    BY: BEN PACKHAM From: The Australian December 21, 2012 9:48AM 15 comments

    THE Coalition says it can’t guarantee it would deliver a budget surplus during the entire first term of an Abbott government.

    A day after Wayne Swan dumped Labor’s long-held surplus vow, opposition treasury spokesman Joe Hockey also recalibrated the Coalition’s surplus commitment……………

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/treasury/joe-hockey-recasts-coalition-surplus-pledge/story-fn59nsif-1226541666538

    Mr, Abbott said he would have a surplus today. Guaranteed, he would always have, if in power.

    I seem to remember during those years of Costello’s surpluses we had many rises in the interest rates. There were many, was it up to nine or more in a row.

    What happened to the belief that interest rate are always lower under the Liberals.

    With the deficits, we see the opposite.

    Could it be, there is more to judging an economy and how one governs than deficits and surpluses.

    Maybe, in themselves, they mean nothing.

    Maybe one has to look at the context, they are exist in.

    Maybe it is more than debt. Maybe economics is not just black and white.

    Maybe there is no simple answer.

  111. el gordo
    December 22, 2012 @ 3:43 pm
    Aunty is the propaganda arm, along with Fairfax.
    The Klimatariat, IPCC et al, are guilty of faking it.

    Cmon Gordo at least bait the hook. Lazy Lazy Lazy. 🙄

  112. I see. A conspiracy theorist. Sorry. I thought I was talking to someone at least partly sane. My mistake. Don’t forget to check in your closet for communists tonight. They’ll be hiding behind the Illuminati. Have a nice paranoid life.

  113. Given your conspiracy ideation you won’t accept the scientific evidence that Mars has a very different orbital pattern to Earth’s that can explain it’s current solar forcings, not to mention a completely different atmosphere. i doubt you would understand it anyway.Why look to Mars as a proxy anyway when you can study incoming radiation here? Oh that’s right, its those corrupt scientists again. Look out behind you! It’s a communist!

  114. This is no conspiracy, as I’ve explained previously to my comrades here. The scientists were quietly doing their own thing, the media beat it up and politicians were forced to come onboard.

    Enlightened self interest has created a bureaucratic nightmare.

    It will need to be unravelled.

  115. M.E. @ 3.51
    Gadzooks!! I clicked onto that link expecting to go straight to an “article” & was instead confronted by a fearsome lineup of Ltd News & coalition monsters!
    But speaking of recasting things, it’s interesting to wonder how the fourth estate would be playing the story of the Abbott/Hockey team saying they’d stopped insisting on a surplus. A task that would’ve befallen them if Abbott had won last time because his promises were a fair bit more extravagant than Labor’s. And with the coalition as always allowed to slide away from their previous commitments we may see Abbott in the next campaign making a virtue of promising nothing policy wise. We’ll just have to vote him in to see…

  116. Iain, I would rather Australia with triple A ratings and the government with a less than slick publicity machine compared with Abbott’s policy to send us ASAP into another recession..however, in spite of Hockeynomics we will have the glorious spectacle of mega photos of Tony wearing different shades of lycra to console ourselves with.

  117. P.J.@ 3:10 pm

    ” PJ I have never in my life watched Sky news, I mainly get my news from your ABC and the Fairfax press. It’s rather foolish to think that we conservatives are stupid,” Iain it is not foolish to think conservatives are stupid. I know they’re stupid, it is self-evident, undeniable.

    Really? If it is SO self-evident then you will have no trouble enunciating your evidence for this sweeping claim. Sadly I doubt that you will be up to the task and I predict some spluttering bluster and an abusive retort.

    No more is this more certain in your case. In fact in your case, it is worthy of special investigation, a case study let’s say.. You are not only stupid, but delusional with it, you think you know everything, and have an air of superiority I haven’t experienced after being on this orb for over sixty years

    I am actually a quite modest man and I have been on this orb for nearly sixty years and during that time I have never stopped reading on many varied subjects and you learn a thing or two on that sort of life journey. It does not give me cause to claim expertise on much but it has given me a good working understanding of many things.

    As for your denial you don’t watch Sky News, in your case that’s probably true.

    Need I remind you of the self cancelling effects of double negatives in the English language?

    I don’t believe you watch any news. I would go further and make the point, you have probably never ever read a book either..

    actually I’m something of a News Junkie I listen to the ABC radio everyday and every morning I read the Age, The Guardian, The Australian, The UK Telegraph, The Daily Mail, The Herald Sun, as well the ABC news Online. As for books I have read plenty, even ones without pictures!

    It is quite obvious you have had a limited education from the fact, you don’t have an original thought in your head. If not for Andrew Bolt and other vile racist right-wing web sites I know you comment on, most of your comments would appear thus.

    I have a an B A from the university of Queensland PJ and I don’t comment on Bolt’s blog at all and for other right-wing sites I can’t remember when I commented on any other than my own humble blog. Ricky (Truth Serving Tory Troll Trasher)

    See I don’t get that. It’s “painfully” 😥 obvious by the substance of Iians posts he is a political pygmy who avoids anything technical as he is way out of his depth beyond cnt C cnt V. He thinks he understands media and quotes bolt, that’s like classifying a cheeseburger from macca’s as fine dining

    While I have been known to refer to Maccas as “the fine Scottish restaurant” it has always been done with my tongue firmly in my cheek, that said as fast food goes it’s not that bad especially as they now offer a salad option instead of fries with your burger. You don’t want “technical” in my comments you want me to genuflect to the experts that you personally kneel before and your claims that I cut and past my responses is actually contradicted by your regular complaint that all I offer are my opinions. You may work in the parochial media but I would argue that it does not equip you to have any kind of overview of “the media” and as you have a vested interest in the status quo I suggest that your views of the media are far too biased and lacking in objectivity.

  118. Cu and,

    THE Coalition says it can’t guarantee it would deliver a budget surplus during the entire first term of an Abbott government.

    Who would have thunk it.. 🙄

  119. el gordo, I thought you were given your own site for climate change.

    Why here then. I know some could call what you are posting bullshit, but is would be better if you went back to where you have a free go with no other topics getting in the way.

    Just a thought. Do not want to offend.

  120. Min, one minute Abbott is saying he will, the next cannot promise. As usual, Abbott is all over the place, saying what he thinks the audience wants to hear.

    Has not given much thought to the modern age, that keeps tabs on what one says, and quickly shows us disparities, within minutes sometimes.

    Once you had to have a good memory to be a liar. Today, that does not even protect one that takes on the craft of lying.

    Simpler to just tell the truth.

  121. So minus a commitment to a surplus, the Opposition now have as policies Let’s plant more trees (except on agricultural land), a parental leave scheme for millionaires (every baby is precious) and making nannies and au pairs tax deductible (should be handy..perhaps Tones could also include the pool boy).

  122. I just realized, I do not bother reading Iain closely anymore. Just scroll past quickly, maybe picking a a word here or there. Do not believe I have missed much. Do much the same to el gordo.

  123. Min @ 5:44 pm

    Iain, I would rather Australia with triple A ratings and the government with a less than slick publicity machine compared with Abbott’s policy to send us ASAP into another recession..however, in spite of Hockeynomics we will have the glorious spectacle of mega photos of Tony wearing different shades of lycra to console ourselves with.

    It’s not their publicity arm that have let Labor down its their political smarts, or lack there of, that have done Labor in on this and other issues. It’s like they have been eternally shortsighted and never looked beyond getting though each individual daily News cycle. Even writers in Fairfax have been pointing out for ages that the surplus promise was stupid, In fact check out Lenore Taylor from today’s Fairfax press:

    If politicians learn one thing from this sorry Parliament it must surely be not to make promises they can’t keep. You’d think they’d have figured this out after Bob Hawke’s 1987 campaign launch promise that by 1990 no Australian child would need to live in poverty, an impossible pledge he has said is one of his biggest regrets. But since 2010 the government has proved that rash promises – far from reassuring and convincing voters – can disastrously distract from the merits of what it has been doing. Julia Gillard’s broken promise that there would be ”no carbon tax under a government I lead” has helped undermine her legitimacy and authority as leader and the sensible policy rationale of the carbon price she succeeded in introducing. Advertisement It was made when she was still saying she would introduce an emissions trading scheme at some stage, which she must have known was likely to start with a fixed price, that is, a tax. And when in 2010 Treasury projected the budget would be back in surplus by 2012-13, the Gillard government rashly turned that projection into a ”come hell or high water” guarantee, repeated with increasing forcefulness over the ensuing 2½ years (the Coalition can provide the full quotes list, in fact it tweeted most of them on Thursday). Given that Treasury projections are just that – projections – and often end up being wrong, or buffeted by unforeseen events, it was crazy not to add some kind of caveat. Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey are perfectly justified to hold Labor to account for this. Yes, revenue did not meet Treasury’s projections. Yes, the government did absolutely the right thing to concede it would be counter-productive to still try to achieve the surplus with the economy slowing and revenue falling. And possibly they could have spent less on stimulus during the financial crisis or cut spending more in the budgets delivered since. But as things stand, trying to deliver a surplus next year would be a destructive triumph of politics over good economic management. But voters are entitled to be cynical, especially since senior ministers kept repeating the ”Labor will achieve a surplus” script even when everyone knew it was nonsense and right up to the point when Wayne Swan’s announcement delivered them with a new one. And that cynicism clouds the economic arguments that support the decision the government has made. Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/politics/politicians-never-learn-and-so-they-keep-on-promising-20121221-2brc1.html#ixzz2FkosWoTd

    Surely you of all people here must appreciate that the art of politics is not just having the right ideas and the right vision for the future but also having the good sense and confidence not to treat the voters like Mugs the way that Labor have been doing under Rudd and Gillard?

  124. Scrolling that one, I believe I seen “you people” Well can guess what the rest is.

    Min what I set out to say, you are becoming a cynic. Who would have suspected so,

    Here we are three days before Christmas, and politics are still going strong. I must say, this PM sure in not being ignored, whether they like her or not.

    We are srill being told how to think and how to act.

    It is nice that we have so many are willing to tell us the errors of our ways and take our welbeing to heart.

    Sometimes I wish they would just disappear and scurry back to their own sites,

  125. Sad thing Iain, is that you believe that is what they are. That one was short, and I am a very fast reader.

  126. Iain, my aim is not to hurt or wound,

    just to let others know how I feel.

    Sorry I gave the wrong impression. Will have to choose my words more carefully,

    Cannot give the wrong perceptions.

  127. Iain, probably should not say this, but I believe we would not.

    Not that I do not like many people I meet. I lkie most people.

    Just find it hard to take to your attitude.

  128. Col at 2.10 pm…

    Yes I’d like a dollar for every time Hockey’s come out with that bit about the government “crowding out” the private sector and causing interest rates to rise.

    It’s a dangerously misleading analogy because it sort of resonates like the “household budget” story that so many find appealing even though it’s dead wrong.

    One can cut Jo Blo a bit of slack I guess for not being across the minutiae of public finance, but when the Treasuer-to-be gets it so badly wrong, we’re in deep shit.

    And CU at 12.19 pm…

    Thanks for that link CU. I’ve missed a few billyblogs lately and that would’ve been a real loss. Do you get the feeling that Modern Monetary Theory is starting to penetrate the finance sector skulls ?

    Iain, you should find the time to read these 2 essays given that you wrote something like “we should learn to live within our means” yesterday in the context of all this discussion we’ve been having on deficits. I can assure you it will not bend your tie-rods. It is essentially apolitical.

  129. Iain you have a B.A. of course you do, I wouldn’t have doubted that for a nano second, and in your case the B.A. stands for ” Bullshit Artist ” I have no doubt you were the dux of your class with high honours.

    Iain spare me the line you have not commented at Bolt’s odious blog, that like your other assertion that you don’t comment on vile hate sites is arrant nonsense and you know it . I notice you have taken down the links to the more unsavoury uber right wing hate sites at your own odious blog .. You must be going soft?

    Anyway Iain I have wasted enough of my time on you, I am not going to debate you on any point, that would be futile. You are never wrong and a know all with out peer. Yes conservatives are stupid, stupid is their stock in trade. Conservatives especially the working class type (not you of course) of conservative are the most stupid. Why working class people vote for conservative stupid people will have left wing intellectuals baffled for ever. No I’m not an intellectual, but I am smarter than you by an order of magnitude.

    OBTW. Merry Xmas..

  130. like the “household budget” story

    You would think that they would live up to their own ‘common sense’ But apparently not. Professor Andrew Leigh:

    If you want to know what those opposite really think of debt, again, don’t listen to what they say in this place; listen to what they tell the Register of Members’ Interests. If they really believed what they said, that debt is a bad idea, then you would not expect to find that any of them personally held debt, would you?

    .. I note in passing that the member for North Sydney himself has a mortgage. He thinks it is worth taking on some debt for his own future, but he thinks it is a bad idea to save the jobs of some poor people. The member for Bennelong, the member for Kooyong, the member for Pearce, the member for Curtin, the member for Higgins, the member for Hasluck and the members for Macquarie, Cowan, Stirling, Dickson, Berowra, Bonner, McMillan, Wright, Cook, Indi, Swan, Moncrieff and Leichhardt all hold mortgages, as does the member for Warringah. His mortgage was a little late in coming on to the Register of Members’ Interests, but it did get on there eventually, with a story in June 2010 over his failure to declare a $710,000 mortgage. ‘What’s that as a share of income?’ I hear you ask. ‘If he’s worried about this country’s debt levels being 9.6 per cent of GDP, I bet he’s got a small mortgage.’ Well, no; in fact, his mortgage was then about 300 per cent of his annual income

    Read more here. http://www.andrewleigh.com/blog/?p=3300

    I think it’s called hyp …

  131. Catching up @ 6:37 pm

    Iain, probably should not say this, but I believe we would not. Not that I do not like many people I meet. I lkie most people. Just find it hard to take to your attitude.

    Florence I can be quite charming and most affable in person 😉 As for my attitude, well I’m at something of a loss to know precisely what you mean. Mangrove Jack @ 7:24 pm

    Iain, you should find the time to read these 2 essays given that you wrote something like “we should learn to live within our means” yesterday in the context of all this discussion we’ve been having on deficits. I can assure you it will not bend your tie-rods. It is essentially apolitical.

    I don’t recall saying anything of the sort and I did read those essays a while ago and found them most forgettable. P.J. @ 8:00 pm

    Iain you have a B.A. of course you do, I wouldn’t have doubted that for a nano second, and in your case the B.A. stands for ” Bullshit Artist ” I have no doubt you were the dux of your class with high honours.

    Opening with an Ad hominem is never a good look in debate or even a friendly conversation so that puts you on the back foot to start with.

    Iain spare me the line you have not commented at Bolt’s odious blog, that like your other assertion that you don’t comment on vile hate sites is arrant nonsense and you know it.

    Why would I be untruthful about that? The simple fact is that I don’t comment on any of the blogs you allude to, it’s much more fun to comment on blogs like this which are not moderated within an inch of their lives and where the debate is more open and free-flowing.

    I notice you have taken down the links to the more unsavoury uber right wing hate sites at your own odious blog .. You must be going soft?

    Well thanks for dropping by to my blog but I have not changed my blog roll for a very long time. As for “going soft” it’s not a problem for me but if it is for you then maybe you need some of those little blue pills.

    Anyway Iain I have wasted enough of my time on you, I am not going to debate you on any point, that would be futile. You are never wrong and a know all with out peer.

    Ah that must mean that you lack the ability to engage in civil debate or the intellect to win one.

    Yes conservatives are stupid, stupid is their stock in trade. Conservatives especially the working class type (not you of course) of conservative are the most stupid.

    Ah the old inverse working class snobbery eh? You old commos are all alike and so full of hatred for the common man aren’t you?

    Why working class people vote for conservative stupid people will have left wing intellectuals baffled for ever. No I’m not an intellectual, but I am smarter than you by an order of magnitude.

    Well its easy to baffle “leftwing intellectuals” because being one requires an intellect bypass.

    OBTW. Merry Xmas..

    This has to be sarcasm because ven this atheist understands the meaning of Christmas is all about good will to all men and a certain generosity of spirit that you are so completely lacking. But as it happens I think that this is shaping up to be a very merry Christmas here at Chez Hall.
    speaking of which tis the season for this 🙂

  132. JAMES ASHBY is continuing his sexual harassment case against the former federal speaker Peter Slipper, declaring that he will take the matter to the workplace regulator, Fair Work Australia, as well as appealing the recent Federal Court decision against him.
    But the application to Fair Work Australia is already being branded a stunt because, under the law, such claims cannot be heard in open court or go any further than a voluntary conciliation hearing. Standing beside Mr Ashby outside the Federal Court on Friday, his media spokesman Anthony McClellan said that they would lodge Mr Ashby’s case with Fair Work Australia so that ”the whole evidence and the witnesses can be tested in open court”………….

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/ashby-bid-to-take-sexual-harassment-case-to-watchdog-branded-a-stunt-20121221-2brgc.html#ixzz2FmAThovf

  133. What a fine web they weave when they set out to deceive.

    ………………….Fairfax Media has now confirmed that the type of sexual harassment claim Mr Ashby has made to the workplace watchdog – that is, under the ”general protections” section of the Fair Work Act – can go no further than a conciliation conference, which Mr Slipper is not required to attend.
    ”Any application under General Protections is dealt with through a conciliation conference, it is not dealt with through a hearing,” a Fair Work Australia spokeswoman said.
    The managing director of the law firm, Workplace Law, Athena Koelmeyer, said such conferences did not involve witness testimony, affidavits or cross examination.
    ”It is effectively the parties sitting down with legal representatives and a judicial member from Fair Work Australia,” she said.
    Employers are only required to attend if they have dismissed their employee. Mr Ashby was not dismissed.
    If the parties are unable to settle their differences, the judicial member may issue a certificate which can then form part of an application to the Federal Court or the Federal Magistrates Court.
    However, given that Mr Ashby has already had an application dismissed by the Federal Court, any new application would have to be based on new facts or new evidence.
    ”I’m not quite sure what the point is,” Ms Koelmeyer said of the new application.
    ”They have already appealed the abuse of process decision [by Justice Rares]. If they proceed with this application to the Federal Court it would mean having two matters before the court which are the same.”
    Another workplace law expert who asked not to be named said the application had ”the hallmarks of a stunt”.
    McClellan declined to comment when asked how the Fair Work application could possibly lead to Mr Ashby’s claim being heard in open court as he had claimed.
    Mr Slipper also declined to comment.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/ashby-bid-to-take-sexual-harassment-case-to-watchdog-branded-a-stunt-20121221-2brgc.html#ixzz2FmBXo74W

  134. “Florence I can be quite charming and most affable in person As for my attitude, well I’m at something of a loss to know precisely what you mean.”

    Being charming does not go far with me. Do not have a need to have my ego stroked.

    You do not have to tell me you are at a loss to know what I mean.

    We already know that. This in spite of many here telling you what they think of you.

    Many do not see you, as you see yourself.

    Sorry, it is one you will have to work out yourself.

    PS. Hint, try rereading the comments you post, with a open mind.

  135. Iain Hall
    December 22, 2012 @ 5:44 pm
    While I have been known to refer to Maccas as “the fine Scottish restaurant”

    The Golden Arches sells neither Haggis nor Deep fried Mars Bars….As Bolt sells neither fact or truth….
    Merry Christmas

    Neil of Sydney
    December 22, 2012 @ 10:06 pm
    What is the deception???

    You know I am convinced that Nil is so stupid and gullible he has no idea
    Hey Nil you been asleep?

  136. ‘I am not going to debate you on any point, that would be futile.’

    Iain needs a thread of his own so that the locals can ignore him.

  137. Iain, I said…

    “Iain, you should find the time to read these 2 essays given that you wrote something like “we should learn to live within our means” yesterday in the context of all this discussion we’ve been having on deficits. I can assure you it will not bend your tie-rods. It is essentially apolitical.”

    You replied…

    “I don’t recall saying anything of the sort and I did read those essays a while ago and found them most forgettable.”

    But this is what you wrote…

    “Its called living within our means and I suspect that you are not so good at it because you seem to have trouble grasping the simple idea that one’s credit cards are very useful unless they are all maxed out. Labor have maxed out the nation’s credit cards… ”

    OK, we can all have slips of the memory. But those 2 essays were very recent.

    Regardless, if you change your mind and read them I’d be most interested to hear your response. You’ve often said you enjoy a good debate.

  138. el gordo
    December 22, 2012 @ 10:59 pm
    ‘I am not going to debate you on any point, that would be futile.’
    Iain needs a thread of his own so that the locals can ignore him.

    Now that’s better… lol.

  139. MJ, so recent that you missed one.

    el godo, why should Migs give him a thread of his own, as you know he has his own site.

    I am curious as to what you believe it should be called, as Iain is more interested just objecting to what we say, than any topic.

  140. El Gordo… oh guffaw.. “Iain doesn’t appear to have a particular portfolio.”
    …… you and your one liners (echo) ….(echo)…..(hello)….. na, thats why he did’nt set up his own misinformation vehicle …. 👿 ….. what is it with you Ostrdges’ and sandpits……. and oh…. thats a guffaw….. :mrgreen:

  141. Hey Ricky I was surprised Iain Hall wasn’t on that list. After all he fits all the right criteria pardon the pun, again. I think our Iain has has an epiphany of sorts, either that or he must have thought no one would remember his links to uber right wing hate sites. Yea it was great reading Iain Hall’s political bursts on these blogs, usually he was in deep and meaningful conversations into the night with uber right wingers like Beck from RWDB and the good ol Currency Lad.Topic being those damn commies, you know the rest. These days Hall likes to post the diatribes of the British comedian Pat Condell. Yea ol Pat (Is he still alive?) likes to prattle on about the Muslims and how they’re just arse holes. I fail to see the humour myself. Maybe you have to have a right wing thought pattern to get it?

    But the best for last Hall reckons, now dig this, I have a terminal case of working class snobbery. Well at last, Hall finally nails half of that insult and wait for it, he’s heavens to Murgatroyd right (sorry again), yes I still work. Well I still do my bit, drive a bus as it happens, for a load of downs syndrome kids But Hall true to form ruins it all by calling me a commo. I wouldn’t mind if Hall actually knew what one was..

    Anyway enough of Hall. I thought your link was very interesting, especially the fact that two of the names mentioned still put the fear (if there is one) of God into me. John Bolton and Oliver North. .I will never forget North’s appearances at the hearings into the Iran Contra affair. This f*&^%$ is/was dangerous to say the least. As for Bolton he is dead set barking mad. ” Lesson lost in translation ” Aint that the ever lovin truth?

  142. On the commie/socialist tag. It’s never ceased to amaze me how the right get the apportioning of these organisations so wrong, and indeed what they actually represent.

    Modern Labor here and the Democrats in the US for example are mostly centre to centre right wing parties, but it goes to show how radically far the right have shifted that they call these parties socialists and communist. To them anything left of the Black Hundreds benchmark are communists and anything left of John Howard are socialists, and it was Howard here who shifted them to the far right in thinking.

    The other explanation for their constant misapportioning of these organisations, and probably the correct one, is that they mostly lack the acuity to debate at the political and policy level so deliberately use that misapportioning as a method of denigration and insult.

  143. P.J. 4:29 am

    Hey Ricky I was surprised Iain Hall wasn’t on that list. After all he fits all the right criteria pardon the pun, again.

    Do you imagine me with a collections of guns eh PJ?
    Wrong!!!!!! I have an intense dislike of them

    I think our Iain has has an epiphany of sorts, either that or he must have thought no one would remember his links to uber right wing hate sites. Yea it was great reading Iain Hall’s political bursts on these blogs, usually he was in deep and meaningful conversations into the night with uber right wingers like Beck from RWDB and the good ol Currency Lad.

    Well Currency lad has long ago deleted his blog and its literally been years since I even read Beck’s blog but I find it rather telling that you think that any thing to the right of the political spectrum is a “hate site”.

    Topic being those damn commies, you know the rest. These days Hall likes to post the diatribes of the British comedian Pat Condell. Yea ol Pat (Is he still alive?) likes to prattle on about the Muslims and how they’re just arse holes. I fail to see the humour myself. Maybe you have to have a right wing thought pattern to get it?

    I like Pat Condell and I have no trouble admitting that, you are however missing the point about his shtick in the vids which is not to attack Muslims, but to reveal the truths about the faith that they so blindly follow.

    But the best for last Hall reckons, now dig this, I have a terminal case of working class snobbery. Well at last, Hall finally nails half of that insult and wait for it, he’s heavens to Murgatroyd right (sorry again), yes I still work. Well I still do my bit, drive a bus as it happens, for a load of downs syndrome kids But Hall true to form ruins it all by calling me a commo. I wouldn’t mind if Hall actually knew what one was..

    Oh course I know what Commos are PJ and you fit the definition of a Marxist to a T, Full of hate and envy for anyone who has made a Quid or two, check, believes in the glorious revolution lead by the vanguard of the party (himself) Check, full of bitterness that the “lumpen proletariat” have no interest in the glorious revolution, check, hates anyone who has turned their back on their working class roots and socialism, check! I could go on but I think that the picture is clear enough. Congrats on doing something worthwhile in your working life though.

    Möbius Ecko @ 5:18 am

    On the commie/socialist tag. It’s never ceased to amaze me how the right get the apportioning of these organisations so wrong, and indeed what they actually represent.

    Ah yes the glories of a 19th century ideology, that wrecked havoc through most of the 20th century and is totally discredited in this century. What it represents is essentially totalitarian enslavement, poverty and death on an massive scale.

    Modern Labor here and the Democrats in the US for example are mostly centre to centre right wing parties, but it goes to show how radically far the right have shifted that they call these parties socialists and communist. To them anything left of the Black Hundreds benchmark are communists and anything left of John Howard are socialists, and it was Howard here who shifted them to the far right in thinking.

    Well I have never seriously called Labor “socialists” or “communists” because it is obvious that Labor lack the ability or ideological vision to organise a piss up let alone a revolution. Its their lack of a cogent political narrative that has allowed Labor to become captives of both the free marketeers and the loopy Greens in a desperate attempts to gain or retain office.

    The other explanation for their constant misapportioning of these organisations, and probably the correct one, is that they mostly lack the acuity to debate at the political and policy level so deliberately use that misapportioning as a method of denigration and insult.

    You are projecting ME and your focus need attention.

  144. ‘NEW census analysis reveals that the “crisis” in Aboriginal languages is overstated, debunking the notion that mother tongues are dying out.

    ‘In the Northern Territory the proportion of Aborigines speaking an indigenous language at home rose from 59.1 per cent in 2006 to 64.7 per cent in 2011.’

    Karvelas and Rontoul in the Oz

  145. Iain Hall (on living beyond our means)

    “I don’t recall saying anything of the sort and I did read those essays a while ago and found them most forgettable.”

    24 hours earlier…

    “Its called living within our means and I suspect that you are not so good at it because you seem to have trouble grasping the simple idea that one’s credit cards are very useful unless they are all maxed out. Labor have maxed out the nation’s credit cards… ”

    I think we’ve been here before Iain ?

    There are 2 issues here: firstly there’s your misunderstanding of how the budgets of sovereign governments work (which could be easily fixed with a bit of homework).

    The other is character.

  146. MJ
    This is your second comment saying essentially the same thing (although in the first you do admit that its not unreasonable for me not to remember precisely what I have said before).

    And now let me explain what I understand about your “how the budgets of sovereign governments work” argument.
    You want to suggest that deficits don’t matter because governments can and do just create money out of nothing and that as more is needed by the nation then more can easily created to meet that need.
    Would that be a fair summary of the argument?

  147. “Maxing out our credit cards” and “Living beyond our means” are 2 points often made by those who think they’re making telling points against government policy.

    Like I’ve said before, they’d probably earn smug chortles from like-minded guests at a dinner party but as for informed analysis, such comments just tell us the writer doesn’t have a clue.

    And, once again, that’s no great crime. But when you’ve been told again and again that it’s nonsense and given links to material that’s factually correct…

    Even lab rats learn faster than that.

  148. “You want to suggest that deficits don’t matter because governments can and do just create money out of nothing and that as more is needed by the nation then more can easily created to meet that need.

    Would that be a fair summary of the argument?”

    No, Iain. It’s not.

    All I can suggest is that you go and read those links to Mitchell again.

  149. Iain Hall
    December 23, 2012 @ 6:12 am
    Do you imagine me with a collections of guns eh PJ?
    Wrong!!!!!! I have an intense dislike of them

    Me too Iian. Living in Sydney, it’s a constant worry. I was once in my village pub and caught in the middle of a Lebanese gunfight… It was Sunday pool comp.
    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/08/1070732140942.html
    I was at the table behind this fuckwit in the picture. My mate had his family (two 5 year old twins) in the beer garden. It spilled outside and a shot whistled past a woman over the baby capsule she was fastening and lodged in the front window pillar. A shot grazed the top of a bowser whilst a guy was filling his car with his kids in the back seat. Most concerning was a guy was filling an LPG bottle and the bullet missed the top of cylinder by inches and lodged in the wall
    These were glock pistols “stolen” from a house which was a “Leb” security company in Greenacre.
    I personally admire John Howards political bravery after Port Arthur which is indeed a great Legacy of true bipartisan politics.
    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/26/1072308673527.html?from=storyrhs

    Mangrove Jack
    December 23, 2012 @ 8:54 am
    “Maxing out our credit cards” and “Living beyond our means” are 2 points often made by those who think they’re making telling points against government policy.

    That’s like explaining nanotechnology as little stuff can’t be as good as big stuff because you can’t see it. That’s why the floposition is addicted to three word slogans catering to the idiocy epidemic perpetuated by low brow featherweight entertainers masquerading as media commentators.

    Iain Hall
    December 23, 2012 @ 9:16 am
    Please provide those links again then as I did not save them.

    Echoed, please do. MJ.

  150. Here’s the link to Bill Mitchell, Iain.

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/

    These are the 2 recent essays being discussed here (scroll down)

    “Keep the helicopters on their pads and just spend”

    “Government budgets bear no relation to household budgets”

    They are fairly “accessible”. Good luck.

  151. Hope you find the link useful too Ricky.

    For your info Ricky, Bill Mitchell writes about Modern Monetary Theory.

    It’s not really a “theory” as we’ve come to use the word but a clear statement about how our monetary system operates, the nuts and bolts. Armed with this knowledge makes one pretty much bullshit-proof, from all sides of politics.

    It gets really interesting when it gets into banking. Who for example understands that commercial banks are not intermediaries: they do not for example lend out customers deposits. Nor do they get their “lending” money from the RBA, which makes all the jawboning about “passing on” the rate cuts so hilarious.

    Mitchell is one of about 20 or so academic economists around the world presently writing about this stuff.

    Here’s a link to one of Mitchell’s colleagues, Prof Stephanie Kelton, being interviewed on NPR. It’s well worth listening to, especially in light of the “fiscal cliff” stuff.

    I hope you get addicted.

  152. Ricky, I had a similar experience thirty odd years ago, sitting in the beer garden that was used by families. I had four children at the time, including one in a bassinet.

    It was a good place to be, until the publican decided more money could ne made from the bikies of the time.

    If you evet been caught in between two gangs fighting, believe me, it is your worst nightmare,. Bike chains and mufflers swinging around everywhere.

    After things settled down, most of the fathers approched the police, saying they were willing to give evidence.

    What occutted , that the police sat down with the bikies, all very amicable;e. On the was out, they picked up a sleeping drunk, that was out of sight and causing no problems.

    There was never any police action. The familes just stopped coming.

    I am telling this story, because there was not a Arab in sight. All were just like us.

    Yes, they were all Australians and white.

    It was little further west than your story.

  153. Thanks Jack ..I will study that later today.
    CU. I am the furthest thing from racist you will get. All my mates are wogs and my last name is Polish…Lebanese and Arab Crime is an epidemic in Sydney. Not enough leadership from the community leaders, as with the other communities.
    They own the security industry and our current police commissioner is doing a great job in attacking a problem that is spiraling out of control.

  154. Ricky, not saying you are.

    That pub was in Guildford, and I am very aware of the changes. I lived through them. Even had one or more of the worse today in my homes as kids. Do not know where they went wrong. (no I do have some ideas, which I will keep to myself)

    I also know many other families that are a credit to this country.

    What I am saying, it is not faitr to tar all with the same brush.

    l also lived through similar allegations, with the Vietnamese community.

    Now I have had a few Polish friends over the years. I found that many of the men had big problems with alcohol. Lovely people though. Now it would be amiss of me, to say all are the same. For I know that not to be true.

    Merry Christmas.

  155. Ricky, one thing I observed many years ago, on more that one occasion, money changing hands between bikies and police. Wonder if that still exists, since they have taken over the gangs.

    What got me, the police did not seem too concerned who saw the transactions.

  156. When Lebs drive round in a Lexus with a patch on….something is seriously wrong. Reason. Bike Gangs control 90% of the amphetamine trade especially ice and speed.

  157. ” The other explanation for their constant misapportioning of these organisations, and probably the correct one, is that they mostly lack the acuity to debate at the political and policy level so deliberately use that misapportioning as a method of denigration and insult”

    Indeed. Of course Hall has been doing his for years. His favourite insults being Latte Sipper and Warminista. Hall and his ilk like to associate the modern left with any of the so called communists out of the mists of time, this is to try and legitimisee his argument on any topic under the sun. He does this even in debate about global warming. The fact is, most of the murdering sociopath killers that Hall likes to think were communists, were the left overs of medieval bully boys, in fact dictators, communists in the true sense of the word, they were anything but.This subtle difference is lost on Hall. Hall at times has even tried revisionist history by calling Nazi’s leftists. Such is Hall’s total lack of education and reading. When it has been pointed out to him that Nazi’s were in fact right wing fascists, Halls retort was, the Nazi’s were closer to leftist ideology than the right.

    Hall’s tirade against the Labor party, about lacking vision and not being able to organise a piss up and cogent political narrative, just goes to show how uneducated this dunce is. That the Labor party or its union wing is responsible for every progressive policy this country has ever experienced is lost on Hall. But he is good sport and I hope he is around for a long time, he represents what we on this blog in most cases are against, every blog has its village idiot.

    .

  158. P.J. @ 3:08 pm

    Indeed. Of course Hall has been doing his for years. His favourite insults being Latte Sipper and Warminista.

    Those epithets are not “insults” PJ they are nothing more than an affectionate tease for those of you on the left side of politics.

    Hall and his ilk like to associate the modern left with any of the so called communists out of the mists of time, this is to try and legitimise his argument on any topic under the sun.

    Rubbish! While I certainly do criticise the modern left over lots of issues I certainly don’t do so in such a crude manner.

    He does this even in debate about global warming. The fact is, most of the murdering sociopath killers that Hall likes to think were communists, were the left overs of medieval bully boys, in fact dictators, communists in the true sense of the word, they were anything but.This subtle difference is lost on Hall. Hall at times has even tried revisionist history by calling Nazi’s leftists. Such is Hall’s total lack of education and reading. When it has been pointed out to him that Nazi’s were in fact right wing fascists, Halls retort was, the Nazi’s were closer to leftist ideology than the right.

    My Criticism of communism is based entirely upon the tendency of of all Marxist states and movements to have a really broad totalitarian streak and an “ends justifies the means” mentality the very same trait was an essential aspect of National socialism as was centralised state control of the economy. There is plenty of evidence to support this view. However so many of the unthinking left (like yourself PJ) get very upset by the comparison because they see Communism and Nazism as a dichotomy rather than siblings from the totalitarian persuasion.

    Hall’s tirade against the Labor party, about lacking vision and not being able to organise a piss up and cogent political narrative, just goes to show how uneducated this dunce is.

    I just call it as I see it

    That the Labor party or its union wing is responsible for every progressive policy this country has ever experienced is lost on Hall.

    Not at all PJ I voted for them for most of may adult life, in fact the first time I ever voted it was to answer the “its time” call to change the government, My father was a personal friend of Bill Hayden and secretary of his local ALP branch in the late sixties, in fact its only been in the last decade that my opinions about the ALP have changed as I became so very disillusioned with them. I fully endorse many “progressive” policies and institutions, like social welfare, Medicare, and public education.

    But he is good sport and I hope he is around for a long time, he represents what we on this blog in most cases are against,

    Well yes I am a good sport and to me this commenting thing is a game, I do it for enjoyment but you should ask your self where debate, on any topic, would be without someone to put the contrary viewpoint. Frankly I think that it would be very dull indeed…

    every blog has its village idiot.

    Mate you should try to avoid all of that negative self talk it can lead to depression you know.

  159. Iain Hall wrote to PJ…
    “Mate you should try to avoid all of that negative self talk it can lead to depression you know”

    A wise and valid counsel that could equally be applied to many of the regulars here, where contrarian views are met with accusations of hatred by holier than thou commenters. For a blog that supposedly promotes debate it also allows vilification of contrarians which really makes it no more than a group think exercise for the believers.

    Compliments of the Season to all and may 2013 be the year when the planet cools a little more and more Aussies wake up to the shenanigans of the worst government we’ve ever had!

  160. Yes Treeman
    you are so right about too many of the regulars here when it comes to their willingness to use abuse to try to put down anyone who does not toe the party line. Of course its easy enough to be snarky back (as I have done to PJ above ) but that is a sideshow to the issues that are very worthy of proper debate.
    MJ
    I have read the links that you so kindly supplied and I think that I get the gist of the argument, however it does seem to be predicated upon notions of eternal economic growth and I just can see how the whole edifice won’t eventually collapse once humanity’s population reaches the environmental limit of growth, if not before.

  161. Iain you really don’t get it do you? I haven’t got a problem with a differing point of view if, that point of view is based on more than the prattlings of an idiot. I have never ever said anywhere, anytime, that anyone, is not allowed a point of view mine is, you are a moron.

    No one as dedicated as you are to the rancid right side of politic’,s has ever voted for the Labor party. What is more, when you have been debating an issue and trapped in to a point of no where left to go, you try to out manoeuvre your , antagonist with revisionist history., which is your stock in trade.

    I read with great delight your affirmation you believe in social welfare, Medicare and public education, yet you would support an ideology that would have all these institutions destroyed if, they, they being the conservatives, ever got a big enough mandate from the people. It was no secret your mentor, a one John Winston Howard canvassed such an idea by stealth. He was going to hand over social welfare to charitable organisations. He was told by wiser heads in his party, who agreed with him incedentally, that move would be electoral Armageddon. That is why people like you Iain are dangerous to the causes I believe in. I don’t believe your comments are out of malice btw like I said, you an uneducated oaf who just doesn’t know any better.
    . . .

  162. Tree and Co, do you really believe that you are debating.

    You all ignore any serious comments that are posted. You all go off on your own tangent, very rarely address what is written.

    You are all interested in your own beliefs and opinions, with the aim of imposing the on others. That is not debating.

    In case you all have not noticed the debate goes on in spite of you all, and around you.

    I do not know why any waste time, acknowledging what you all have to say. All is recycled over and over,

    Debates should move on, to new ground and topics. This I know, you lot cannot afford this to happen, but believe me it will, in spite of all your concerted efforts to waylaid the conversation..

  163. Right on cue CU…
    “In case you all have not noticed the debate goes on in spite of you all, and around you”
    That’s group think for you…

    Do you ever stop to think that it just might be you not moving on? Clinging to the misplaced belief that 97% of all scientists have some sort of climate consensus for example?

  164. Iain Hall
    December 23, 2012 @ 3:55 pm
    I voted for them for most of may adult life, in fact the first time I ever voted it was to answer the “its time” call to change the government, My father was a personal friend of Bill Hayden and secretary of his local ALP branch in the late sixties, in fact its only been in the last decade that my opinions about the ALP have changed as I became so very disillusioned with them. I fully endorse many “progressive” policies and institutions, like social welfare, Medicare, and public education.

    Come back comrade. I can assure you that we are working hard to turn the light back on (the hill si now a mountain) to reform the party. By reform I mean refocus the vision back to what drove you and others away an abandonment of cor Labor values (not liberal lite). Bring on ICAC and the decimation of Sussex street right mafia.

  165. CU wrote…
    “Tree and Co, do you really believe that you are debating.
    You all ignore any serious comments that are posted. You all go off on your own tangent, very rarely address what is written.
    You are all interested in your own beliefs and opinions, with the aim of imposing the on others. That is not debating”

    That’s not right at all, when I have time and the subject is in my sphere of interest I’ve stayed the course.

    “In case you all have not noticed the debate goes on in spite of you all, and around you”

    By writing that you virtually admit that you drive by anything we might say…scroll past as you put it!

    “I do not know why any waste time, acknowledging what you all have to say. All is recycled over and over”

    Frankly, I feel the same. You lot are basically recycling the same old ALP propaganda pieces.

    “Debates should move on, to new ground and topics. This I know, you lot cannot afford this to happen, but believe me it will, in spite of all your concerted efforts to waylaid the conversation.”

    While you lot continue to diss and vilify, scroll past and abuse any contrary views, this site will forever remain nothing more than an exercise on leftist group think!

  166. There is an online campaign to out the media in their involvement in the Slipper co-conspiracy by Brough, Bishop, Pyne and probably Abbott himself.

    Australians For Honest Politics

    Just saw the Abbott response on ABC News and there is no doubt he’s very worried. Using the cost of drafting a letter as an reaction with the large amount of tax payers money he’s squandered on political stunts shows his desparation.

  167. Ricky wrote…”Come back comrade. I can assure you that we are working hard to turn the light back on (the hill si now a mountain) to reform the party…”

    Well blow me down that’s an admission of problems if ever there was one. Give me a bell when it’s all done and dusted Ricky… Gillard gone, Thomson in jail, NSW Obeid or whatever his name is sorted and all the riff raff and hangers on called to task.

    I won’t be expecting to hear from anytime soon…comrade!

  168. Off his Treeman
    December 23, 2012 @ 4:56 pm
    PJ, nails himself to the wall Moron and uneducated oaf are most apt!

    Do you ever stop to think that it just might be you not moving on? Clinging to the misplaced belief that 97% of all scientists have some sort of climate consensus for example?

    I can see off his treeman is again offering his articulate brand of “debate” Big open ended sweeping comments without an ounce of fact delivered with insults. What a crude little factless troll.

    Hey off your treeman, the debate is over the consensus is in, it’s the action that we are debating.

  169. Möbius Ecko…”the cost of drafting a letter as an reaction with the large amount of tax payers money he’s squandered on political stunts shows his desparation.”

    For mine it pales in comparison to Gillard’s desperation in parachuting Slipper into the speakers seat in the first place. Everyone in canberra already knew the colour of slippers sandwich so it was always going to be a difficult one to digest. For mine Gillard is still grieving for a relationship that did not reward her in any way shape or form.

  170. “PJ, nails himself to the wall Moron and uneducated oaf are most apt!”

    Then this from Treeman, the brains trust.

    ” While you lot continue to diss and vilify, scroll past and abuse any contrary views, this site will forever remain nothing more than an exercise on leftist group think”

    Do you self flagellate as well ?

    Treeman there are a myriad of self loathing right wing hate sites, why not go there where you can do what we do here on the left, agree with each other.

  171. Off his Treeman
    December 23, 2012 @ 5:12 pm …”
    Well blow me down that’s an admission of problems if ever there was one. Give me a bell when it’s all done and dusted Ricky… Gillard gone, Thomson in jail, NSW Obeid or whatever his name is sorted and all the riff raff and hangers on called to task.
    I won’t be expecting to hear from anytime soon…comrade!

    WTF?
    Off your Treeman you’re a manchild.

    • Gillard is leader
    • Thomson is a beat up, no charges just fiberal bullshit
    • Obied in Jail, awesome and anyone else that’s a corrupt criminal

    See here is a concept you are unfamiliar with in a political party. We don’t all agree. That’s why we have a caucus. Seriously you’re a political Pygmy with the same IQ as our debt to GDP ratio, that is done and dusted you ignorant bolt quoting Zombie. 🙄

  172. “Treeman there are a myriad of self loathing right wing hate sites, why not go there where you can do what we do here on the left, agree with each other.”

    When my work is done I’ll take my leave and begone. Right now I’m enjoying myself too much and I do so want to be around in the New Year…

  173. P.J. @ 4:53 pm

    Iain you really don’t get it do you? I haven’t got a problem with a differing point of view if, that point of view is based on more than the prattlings(sic) of an idiot. I have never ever said anywhere, anytime, that anyone, is not allowed a point of view mine is, you are a moron.

    Well I can at least string a clear and comprehensible sentence together. Hint to you PJ when calling someone a “moron” its a good idea to proof read your copy before hitting the “post comment” button.

    No one as dedicated as you are to the rancid right side of politic’,s has ever voted for the Labor party.

    Why are you so incapable of accepting that I once voted Labor? I have absolutely no reason to be dishonest about it.

    What is more, when you have been debating an issue and trapped in to a point of no where left to go, you try to out manoeuvre your , antagonist with revisionist history., which is your stock in trade.

    WTF does that mean? examples please 😉

    I read with great delight your affirmation you believe in social welfare, Medicare and public education, yet you would support an ideology that would have all these institutions destroyed if, they, they being the conservatives, ever got a big enough mandate from the people.

    That is utter bollocks PJ there may well be individuals who believe in the dismantling of the welfare system but most conservatives accept that social welfare is what it costs for a civil society

    It was no secret your mentor, a one John Winston Howard canvassed such an idea by stealth. He was going to hand over social welfare to charitable organisations. He was told by wiser heads in his party, who agreed with him incedentally, that move would be electoral Armageddon.

    and do you really think that the knowledge of how electorally unpalatable the dissolution of welfare would be has been lost or forgotten?

    That is why people like you Iain are dangerous to the causes I believe in. I don’t believe your comments are out of malice btw like I said, you an uneducated oaf who just doesn’t know any better.

    No you fear and loathe my opinions because you know that I have greater powers of persuasion than you yourself can muster
    . . .
    Catching up @ 4:54 pm

    Tree and Co, do you really believe that you are debating.

    We are trying Florence 😉

    You all ignore any serious comments that are posted. You all go off on your own tangent, very rarely address what is written.

    I suspect that you equate seriousness with being consistent with the thinking of the left.

    You are all interested in your own beliefs and opinions, with the aim of imposing the on others. That is not debating.

    Right back at you 😉

    In case you all have not noticed the debate goes on in spite of you all, and around you.

    Comment threads are never truly linear Florence, they weave and diverge and coalesce as the conversation moves on.

    I do not know why any waste time, acknowledging what you all have to say. All is recycled over and over,

    Right back at you again

    Debates should move on, to new ground and topics. This I know, you lot cannot afford this to happen, but believe me it will, in spite of all your concerted efforts to waylaid the conversation..

    Its the Journey and not the destination that matters to me not the destination

  174. ” Just saw the Abbott response on ABC News and there is no doubt he’s very worried. Using the cost of drafting a letter as an reaction with the large amount of tax payers money he’s squandered on political stunts shows his desparation.”

    Indeed. His kisser said it all. It is over for Abbott and I think that realisation has just dawned on him. He did not look a well man.

  175. Off his Treeman
    December 23, 2012 @ 5:20 pm
    Ricky thanks for the compliments.

    Your welcome you Fact deficient cretinous Troll… and I would check that figure (I know that’s beyond you) before accepting the complement. Jesus your dumb 🙄

  176. Off his Treeman
    December 23, 2012 @ 5:27 pm
    Iain Hall, calling the real morons and zombies to account!.

    Same old..qoute opinion, Paiste
    At least, for all his political faults, rambling and irrelevance Iian is articulate, unlike you, you pathetic trolling imbecilic. Your work is done? What work? You goose stepping intellectually challenged fruitloop

  177. Seeing as this is the post de jour, how about a success story for Christmas?

    EDUCATION REVOLUTION SUCCESS FOR GILLARD?

    “In an open letter to federal, state and territory education ministers and their opposition counterparts, the group of 36 educators, scientists and clinicians call for a “vast shake-up at all levels of teacher training” to ensure children are taught to read properly.

    The letter was prompted by the results in the international Progress In Reading Literacy Study tests last week that revealed almost 25 per cent of Year 4 children in Australia failed to meet the standard in reading for their age, to the shock of many educators and governments…”Federal governments have known about this problem for nearly a decade, and have received advice from two independent committees of investigation about how to deal with the problem,” yesterday’s letter says. “This advice has been ignored. Little productive change has eventuated at the policy level, much less at the classroom level”

  178. “At least, for all his political faults, rambling and irrelevance Iian is articulate, unlike you, you pathetic trolling imbecilic. Your work is done? What work? You goose stepping intellectually challenged fruitloop”

    By their works shall you know them…

  179. ” That is utter bollocks PJ there may well be individuals who believe in the dismantling of the welfare system but most conservatives accept that social welfare is what it costs for a civil society”

    No, what you have just put is utter, unadulterated bollocks. In fact there was one individual who claimed the very belief to the world that social welfare should be dismantled, and it may have cost him what you said was a lay down misere, the Presidency of the U.S. a one ,Mit Romney. He was speaking for every hard arsed conservative in the country you idiot. To say that it is only some individuals believe social welfare should be dismantled is utter bollocks.

    You have scored an own goal by saying most conservatives believe in social welfare only to keep, your words not mine, a civil society. So they don’t believe in it for any benevolent reasons, just so the poor wont rob them.

    The best for last.

    ” No you fear and loathe my opinions because you know that I have greater powers of persuasion than you yourself can muster”

    Yea you keep believing that, not only a moron, but vain with it.

  180. Whenever Treeman is being done in a debate he falls back to being a spelling/literacy nazi. You see it often across blogs and forums for all sides of a debate, but it’s nearly always a sign of a divagation.

  181. How many police and other legal investigations has Mr, Brandis and the Liberals initiated over the last couple of years.

    None by the way, have delivered any results, and are mainly about things that occurred to a decade or two ago.

    I do not believe that Justice Rares gave the judgement he did for fun. It is all there in the court. It is not based on rumour or innuendo.

    Do you mob ever read what you post, and wonder what others think of what you write. I believe not.

  182. P.J. @ 5:46 pm

    ” That is utter bollocks PJ there may well be individuals who believe in the dismantling of the welfare system but most conservatives accept that social welfare is what it costs for a civil society”

    No, what you have just put is utter, unadulterated bollocks. In fact there was one individual who claimed the very belief to the world that social welfare should be dismantled, and it may have cost him what you said was a lay down misere, the Presidency of the U.S. a one ,Mit Romney.

    By what leap of logic are you conflating the situation in the USA with the Australia we were discussing? Mate you need to focus your answers so that you present a logical argument rather than an inane grab-bag of socialist fearmongering that casts an inappropriately wide net.

    He was speaking for every hard arsed conservative in the country you idiot. To say that it is only some individuals believe social welfare should be dismantled is utter bollocks.

    Romney was an AMERICAN candidate PJ the topic here is Australian Politics… 🙄

    You have scored an own goal by saying most conservatives believe in social welfare only to keep, your words not mine, a civil society. So they don’t believe in it for any benevolent reasons, just so the poor wont rob them.

    The reasons that conservatives are willing to accept the need for social welfare are of no importance if the result is help to those in need. That you think that not only do the poor have to be helped but helped for the approved reason just shows how petty you are.

    Yea you keep believing that, not only a moron, but vain with it.

    No actually I’m quite a modest man but that does not mean I am going to hide my light under a bushel

  183. Dan
    I think that Rickiy is being the clear opposite of racist in that comment by calling it like it is and not pretending that the ethnicity of the perps is irrelevant for fear of being politically incorrect.

  184. “I have read the links that you so kindly supplied and I think that I get the gist of the argument, however it does seem to be predicated upon notions of eternal economic growth and I just can’t see how the whole edifice won’t eventually collapse once humanity’s population reaches the environmental limit of growth, if not before.”

    I think Mitchell would be horrified if you came away with that impression Iain: you did raise this same issue with me some time ago…you actually said that I sounded like one of those growth at any price types, but let’s put that behind us.

    It is however a concern that we obviously both share and I guess any economic model can be bent to the needs of relentless growth. In the meantime, if only to avoid the distraction of any even bigger problem than the piddly one we’re talking about, just think about consumption as being of the most environmentally benign variety, as in an ideal world.

    The “gist”of MMT is that the government can spend into the economy to buy up services that the private sector is unwilling to do, without fear of inflation, right up to the point of full employment, barring exogenous shocks.

    If you can accept the absolute truth of the proposition that the government can print whatever money it wants (in its own currency) without the need to issue debt then you essentially have it.

    As you’re probably starting to suspect, the issuance of debt serves other purposes and could be totally done away with if the government wanted to.

    I would never say “deficits don’t matter” because quite clearly any government that spent more than it took in taxation when that economy was running hot would be risking a quick dose of inflation.

    Conversely, a government that withheld spending when the economy was running flat would be committing economic vandalism. Like Swan was looking like doing.

    Last, and maybe the most important point: the purpose of taxation is to control aggregate demand. The government doesn’t need our taxes to pay for stuff. It does however need to pull a bit back off us though to keep the price level in the sweet spot.

    MMT is a very simple concept. The problem most of us have is cleaning out all the old ideas.

  185. ‘If you can accept the absolute truth of the proposition that the government can print whatever money it wants (in its own currency) without the need to issue debt then you essentially have it.’

    Italy under Belesconi?

  186. Dan. My best mates are Italian, macedonian, Serbian. Pom, Chinese, and my name is Pannowitz. O have produced two albums for lebonese hip hoppers, at the moment I am @ bankstown sports club. I was raised by a man who started a multicultural soccer club. I have Vietnamese next door, Arabs behind and polish Jews across the road. I break bread with them all. I can assure you the shots are from rougue Leb guns. I call it as a social observation. Racists to me are one step up the ladder from child molesters.

  187. You missed the most important part of the quote el gordo (in its own currency)

    Italy moved to the Euro in 1999, and hence was no longer sovereign in its own currency…

  188. Big round of applause for the person who tweeted the entire Justice Rares judgement onto @TonyAbbottMHR Twitter account, 1686 tweets.

    I don’t think Abbott will ever be able to use the lame excuse he didn’t read it again because there will be a small army online who make sure he does.

  189. ” By what leap of logic are you conflating the situation in the USA with the Australia”

    A dog in the U.S. is still a dog in Australia, you idiot.

    So the reasons that conservatives keep social welfare is not important as long as the needy are taken care of.. Now who is using fucked logic ? . Of course it matters, there has been much debate on this blog about the character’s of our leaders, if it does not matter, then why comment on it at all?

    Iain that light you boastfully refer to, is about as bright as a five watt globe.

  190. Mangrove Jack @ 6:58 pm

    “I have read the links that you so kindly supplied and I think that I get the gist of the argument, however it does seem to be predicated upon notions of eternal economic growth and I just can’t see how the whole edifice won’t eventually collapse once humanity’s population reaches the environmental limit of growth, if not before.”

    I think Mitchell would be horrified if you came away with that impression Iain: you did raise this same issue with me some time ago…you actually said that I sounded like one of those growth at any price types, but let’s put that behind us.

    I may be a conservative Jack but I have been cynical about the eternal growth proposition for at least twenty years

    It is however a concern that we obviously both share and I guess any economic model can be bent to the needs of relentless growth. In the meantime, if only to avoid the distraction of any even bigger problem than the piddly one we’re talking about, just think about consumption as being of the most environmentally benign variety, as in an ideal world.

    Have you ever read “the waste makers” by Vance Packard? I did years ago and I was quite taken with his preposition that most industrial design has a big element of built in obsolescence,ideally an appliance will fail and need replacement not long after it is out of its warranty period, Frankly I don’t think that we will have truly benign consumption until things are made to last and have very long service lives.

    The “gist”of MMT is that the government can spend into the economy to buy up services that the private sector is unwilling to do, without fear of inflation, right up to the point of full employment, barring exogenous shocks.

    Yes I get that however the ability to do that without causing inflation is not any kind of certainty because the other factor is the necessity for the people to trust the value of the currency and the government issuing it. This is where Labor fall down as they lurch from one grand scheme to another, and they undermine their own credibility with promises that they can’t keep, and the people know that they can’t keep.

    If you can accept the absolute truth of the proposition that the government can print whatever money it wants (in its own currency) without the need to issue debt then you essentially have it.

    Of course I can accept that, but my concern is that its an edifice built upon a foundation of quicksand, of promises and a big dose of wishful thinking.

    As you’re probably starting to suspect, the issuance of debt serves other purposes and could be totally done away with if the government wanted to.

    I would never say “deficits don’t matter” because quite clearly any government that spent more than it took in taxation when that economy was running hot would be risking a quick dose of inflation.

    I have always understood that like many things in life its a matter of priorities Jack and it seems to me that far too often what Labor has been doing is rather like the digging holes notion they Mitchell talks about in one of his pieces.

    Conversely, a government that withheld spending when the economy was running flat would be committing economic vandalism. Like Swan was looking like doing.

    Its not just Swan Jack its the whole Labor team, they have no vision and they believe too much of their own spin

    Last, and maybe the most important point: the purpose of taxation is to control aggregate demand. The government doesn’t need our taxes to pay for stuff. It does however need to pull a bit back off us though to keep the price level in the sweet spot.

    I don’t think that follows at all. in a totally hypothetical construct what you say may be right but in the real world all governments have to be seen to have some backup for the currency it spends on “stuff” without that perception and subsequent confidence of the public in the “reality” of money bank notes would be no more valued than toilet paper

    MMT is a very simple concept. The problem most of us have is cleaning out all the old ideas.

    I think its really a sort of tricky accounting Jack but if it works then who am I to argue?

  191. From Craig Emerson:

    If editors consider a news story doesn’t accord with their editorial position they simply don’t run it. And if journalists want to protect favoured politicians from answering questions about their untruthfulness, they simply don’t ask them.

    In making these observations, I am not asserting there is a general bias in the media. Some editors and a few journalists are blatantly biased. That has always been the case. But the real problem is the abandonment of professional standards to give effect to that bias. All subtlety is lost.

    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0ctB3LVda7ha3JmZW1Nek5ZQzg/view?pli=1&sle=true

  192. P.J. @ 7:44 pm

    ” By what leap of logic are you conflating the situation in the USA with the Australia”

    A dog in the U.S. is still a dog in Australia, you idiot.

    the last time I checked our politics were entirely separate and distinct from the USA.

    So the reasons that conservatives keep social welfare is not important as long as the needy are taken care of.. Now who is using fucked logic ? . Of course it matters, there has been much debate on this blog about the character’s of our leaders, if it does not matter, then why comment on it at all?

    Ask anyone in need if they care about the reasons that they are being helped and I am rather certain that most do not care AT ALL,and I invite you to prove otherwise.

    Iain that light you boastfully refer to, is about as bright as a five watt globe.

    Do you know how many lumens you can get out of 5watts of super-bright Leds?

  193. ‘Italy moved to the Euro in 1999, and hence was no longer sovereign in its own currency…’

    I was projecting, Belesconi wants to come back and print Lira.

  194. ‘Mr Berlusconi plays mischievously with the theme, one day floating his “crazy idea” of telling the Banca d’Italia to print euros defiantly, the next saying “it’s not blasphemy to talk of leaving the euro”.

    ‘His language had a harder edge this week. “Italy is on the edge of the abyss. I can’t allow my country to plunge into an endless recessionary spiral.

    “The situation today is far worse than a year ago when I left the government. We have an extra million unemployed, the debt is rising, firms are closing, property is collapsing, and the car market is destroyed. We can’t keep going on like this.”

    ‘Indeed not.’

    Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

  195. Pingback: Gillard promised the world and delivered a handful of nothing « Iain Hall's SANDPIT

  196. Iain,

    I was hoping we could leave politics right out of this. Your response is quite disappointing. Christ knows what the Labor Party has ever done to you but it must’ve been something pretty bloody bad. You are quite scarred.

    Unfortunately, this has consequences. Your hatred for the Labor Party has somehow blinded you to some core truths about the nature of fiat currencies. That the Labor Party and fiat currencies are totally unrelated is just weird.

    Would you raise the same objections if we had a LNP government I wonder.

    If you have indeed laboured through those 2 lengthy essays by Bill Michell and come away with such strange ideas I must sadly conclude that you just don’t get it.

  197. “I was projecting, Belesconi wants to come back and print Lira.”

    Such a threat might at least make Merkel spare a thought for Greece as it would mean the end of the euro and Germany’s trade surpluses.

  198. For those who might have missed it on last night’s Cafe Talk:

    Notice from Migs. Migs has asked me to let everyone know that he is currently in hospital due to lupus.

    I know that all here wish him well, and most especially a speedy recovery.

  199. its is a real blow for anyone to be laid up for Christmas and I too wish Migs a speedy recovery.
    While I’m here I want to wish all here a happy Christmas

  200. All the best for Christmas to you all.
    You Whisperers are, to my mind, all pretty weird but that’s what makes our society interesting. And the good thing is we have a democracy that permits you weirdos to move freely in Australian society and allows us Clear Thinkers to change governments when we have the numbers.
    I feel truly sad for those in Syria and other such countries.
    Imaging being trapped with a regime that you cannot get rid of.
    ….imagine if Gillard was President for Life….Ahhhhhhhhrggggg.
    I am sincerely glad I am not a Muslim as I am now hovering and salivating over my leg ham with sharpened carving knife at the ready.
    Cheers.

  201. Only a right winger could turn a Xmas greeting into a left wing political bash.

    And they call us weird and themselves clear thinkers?

  202. Merry Christmas everyone.

    Will not be around much today.

    Migs, get better quickly. Better place than hospitals to be today. Min, keep ones chin up

    Thanks for this site, for us rusted on Laborites. Not many places we can go, to share our views.

  203. And they call us weird and themselves clear thinkers?

    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
    Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

  204. My wish,

    To Migs and Min and all those here
    Who post and write throughout the year
    To make CW a place most dear
    In political blogs, almost without peer
    An on-line family, that is clear
    A most safe and happy Christmas cheer

    To all, be safe and well and happy and return
    To re-join the fight in 2013.

    Cheers

  205. Pingback: The ‘Right’ to be heard: what we heard. | Café Whispers

  206. Pingback: Don’t write crap | The Australian Independent Media Network

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