Give it up, Tony

In a post I wrote just over a month ago titled Tony Abbott and the Great Debate I provided a brief summary of the economic impact of the ‘carbon tax’ on Australia. Despite most of the country being frightened half to death from Tony Abbott’s negative campaign, the outcomes went the opposite direction. To recap, I wrote:

He [Tony Abbott] has visited every business in the country and predicted with fear and smear how the carbon tax would destroy their respective industries and how he was likely to be the last person to walk through their doors. Butchers, bakers, candle-stick makers; there’d be none left after the carbon tax annihilated them. Even whole towns were predicted to be wiped off the map.

Whyalla, I am pleased to see has survived as have his favourite butchers, bakers and candle-stick makers. The damage repeatedly predicted by Tony Abbott has failed to deliver its destruction. In fact, it has been quite the reverse. Consider the following:

The data flow covering the time period since the carbon tax started on 1 July 2012 are coming through thick and fast.

The numbers, quite unambiguously, point to the economy doing very on just about all fronts.  Share prices and house prices are both rising, business confidence and consumer sentiment is rising; jobs are being created and the unemployment rate ticked lower.

Indicator      Change since end June 2012
Market Indicators


Official cash rate

No change

Australian dollar (vs USD)


10 year govt bond yield

+0.30 percentage points



    Change in market cap of ASX

+$53 billion

Economic Indicators


RP Data house prices


      Change in Housing Wealth

+$28 billion

Westpac Index of Consumer Sentiment


TD-MI Monthly Inflation


ANZ job ads




Unemployment rate

-0.1% to 5.2%

NAB Business Confidence

+7 points

NAB Business Conditions

-2 points

Mr Abbott would be wise to consider some facts if he intends to continue with his fear and smear. Without them he is open to attack from every economist in the country as well as a Government ready to pounce with a few armed facts and figures themselves.

He may promise to repeal the legislation but in doing so he knows he’d be telling a big fat lie. And in a public debate the Prime Minister could put him to the task on exactly how it could be done. She won’t let him off the hook like our compliant and incompetent media.

I’d suggest that his argument on the ‘destructive’ carbon tax has no credibility left in it.

My suggestion above that the argument has no credibility was almost given the tick of approval by Tony Abbott himself a few days later when he admitted that the impact of the carbon tax may not be catastrophic. I quickly posted a short piece titled Tony Abbott’s “scare campaign was a fraud” and did so with a large dose of smugness. I wrote:

Tony Abbott isn’t getting the message: he needs to shut his mouth to prevent putting a foot in it. He has been given plenty of opportunities this week to learn this simple lesson.

In his latest epic fail he today he admitted to the Tasmanian State Council that:

. . . . the initial impact of the carbon tax may not be absolutely catastrophic.

What happened to the wrecking ball? What happened to Whyalla? What about those 1,001 visits to every butcher, baker and candle-stick maker with dire warnings that their business was doomed?

In a flash Wayne Swan jumped on the comment from Abbott that the impact of the carbon tax has not been catastrophic, declaring his “scare campaign was a fraud”.

Well, dear readers, the carbon tax that has not been catastrophic and which the economic indicators (above) reveal positive outcomes, a month later we now have Tony quietly saying this:

As soon as an election is called, the Coalition will take immediate and concrete steps to repeal the Carbon Tax.

Repealing the Carbon Tax will ease cost of living pressures on families, help small business and restore confidence to the economy.

The man is hell-bent on being a political opportunist. Tony, look at the data. Look at the economy. Even your Shadow Treasurer is starting to look intelligent in comparison to you:

Inside the Coalition, he [Joe Hockey] is waging war. He slapped down Barnaby Joyce for “freelancing” on foreign investment and is fighting to constrain promises being made by Abbott that don’t seem to add up.

These include the scrapping of the carbon and mining taxes while promising (without details) to keep a fair chunk of the goodies they pay for, such as tax cuts, higher pensions and superannuation changes that could cost several billion dollars.

Tony Abbott may have given up his scare campaign but in no way has he given up his ambition ‘scrap the tax’. Might I say . . . Give it up, Tony. We’re all doing just fine. You will be the wrecking ball of the economy – not the tax that you predicted would be.

222 comments on “Give it up, Tony

  1. I wonder how many there are on ‘that’ side of politics who’d quietly welcome an economic downturn to exploit as another talking point with which to bash the Labor government. During Rudd’s time as PM the GFC bearing down on our shores was at its most threatening. Some Coalition spinners were very quick off the blocks, declaring Australia to be in, quote, a: Rudd Recession. With its alliterative two-word composition it no doubt was a natural slogan for their propagandists. When it turned out that Australia was not in recession (and had not been since the 1990s) I heard of no retraction or apology. Looking at you, Sloppy Joe Hockey.

    Right now conservative governments around the country are shedding thousands of jobs per week. How long before their efforts at ‘job destruction’ overtake the job creation capacity of the healthy economy? You can bet that when it starts to play out in the national unemployment statistics, the conservatives will again be straight off the mark to condemn Labor for growing unemployment! They’re nothing if not addicted to Right Wing Projection.

  2. Migs
    The bottom line on the carbon tax is encapsulated in one simple question: “what effect will this regime have on the climate?” and the simple answer of “bugger all” . So in the absence of any substantive effect on the climate its reasonable to argue that this whole scheme is a false flag operation and that it will ultimately be be bad for the environment and even worse for our economy.
    Frankly I don’t get how all of you minions of the left are so keen to support what is in essence a derivatives trading scheme that enriches speculators and shysters while impoverishing every other aspect of our economy by making it less efficient.
    So its the long term uselessness of this scheme that the coalition base their campaign on rather than it being instant death for any one place like Whyalla. Its a slow poison like polonium instead of a quick one like cyanide but it can and will be economically fatal in the long run none the less.

  3. Cuppa. they are sure working hard to bring your scenario about. This is the last trick in their armour.

    They will do absolutely anything to win, even destroy the nation.

    The demolisher van only deliver instability and numerous elections to carry out his agenda. He cannot carry out his demolishing for years. Just will not have the numbers. One cannot call an election at whim.

    If we were unlucky enough for him to wen, I can see him setting a record to be the shortest serving PM in history. That is apart from the Country Party one that fill in in emergencies, while they found a Liberal one. Do not know if they will revert back to a National Party deputy.

    Miglo, the figures just do not add up.

    It does not add up as well, the allegations that this is an under performing PM and everything Labor does turns to dust. Just to many successes.

    None so far for Abbott. None at all, now that the polls have turn, albeit slowly but trending the same way.

    Abbott needs the biggest landslide this country has ever seen, to even to have a chance to do as he says. Once again lying and what he is good at. exaggerating.

    No matter what, that will not occur.

  4. Facts…..What facts? BLAH BLAH BLAH 👿

    Migs, good one.

    What inconvenient truths you tell… How dare you? 😆 😆 🙄 😆

    Cuppa exactly.


  5. Quite an attractive set of economic “facts” their Migs. Thanks for yet again reinforcing that this government is successfully reforming to a low carbon economy to ensure future prosperity. Any Minion of reasonable thought would understand that it will be now economically unsound business practice to pollute. Congratulations Australia, another world beating economic report card. “Yes”….The sky is still intact and “Yes”…. “fact” prevails where “rhetoric” fails.

  6. ‘How long before their efforts at ‘job destruction’ overtake the job creation capacity of the healthy economy?’

    The sacking of bureaucrats in health and education is a wonderful thing. Assuming all state and federal governments become conservative, we need only wait a few more years before the free market is operating.

  7. ‘Any Minion of reasonable thought would understand that it will be now economically unsound business practice to pollute.’

    Wait a minute, CO2 is not a pollutant, that’s just joolya making shit up.

  8. Indeed el gordo, a free market where the only people who are “free” to choose are the ones with sufficient wealth in order to exercise this “freedom”.

  9. Iain/el gordo,

    It appears that you have both missed the point of the post and/or completely disregard the economic indicators.

    But feel free to continually push your barrows.

  10. El gordo,

    Speaking of making up shit, the carbon tax stays. It’s your mate Abbott who is the bullshit producer.

  11. The good news is that 2015 has been tipped by the warminista as a ‘tipping point’ and the Arctic will be free of ice in summer.

  12. Shorter el gordo.

    @ 7:08 Troll
    @ 7:14 Troll
    @ 7:22 Troll
    @ 7:24 Stupidity, still Troll
    @ 7:29 WFT, look over there not at Abbott/opposition Troll

    AntonyG @ 7:28 el gordo produces a huge amount of it.

  13. Cuppa & Migs
    I an not and I have never claimed ” we’ll all be ruined.” but it is clear that we would be doing better without the carbon tax and its expensive “compensation” that cost more than the tax collects

  14. Migs, reality’s got a way of going against right-wing memes. Or, as the saying goes, reality has a left-wing bias. Can’t believe those morons are still going on about the “carbon tax” and disputing the need to reduce the emissions of CO2. (Though of course they’re here to derail the topic). I wonder if they’re still putting the anti-federation arguments of the late 1800s, and resisting the move to decimal currency. 😀

  15. I see that troll1 has ignored all previous replies to his absymal talking point that the Carbon Price will do “Bugger All” for the environment, even though a “Bugger All” improvement, as previously shown, is vastly preferrable to the continued degredation.

    Meanwhile, troll2 (the wannabe ‘Ghost Troll’) still hasn’t worked out the English language, even though, dozens of times, it has proved that, under the existing definition of the term, C02 is most definitiely a ‘pollutant’

    And that is their sole contribution to the thread. trolling already disproved talking points


  16. Nice to see Swanny leaving the yanls to their own devices (although, his comments went down over there far better than I thought they would) and having a go at hockey etal

    Treasurer Wayne Swan has described as “absurd” comments by critics who say Australia’s economy has stopped growing.

    “It’s disappointing that there are those in our community that continue to talk down our nation’s prospects,” he said in an economic note released on Sunday.

    “We hear absurd claims that there is rising sovereign risk in Australia, that the investment pipeline has suddenly run dry and that our economy has stopped growing.

    “Such claims are not just plain wrong, they are an insult to the hard work and determination of our workers and our businesses.”

    He says ratings agency S&P has reaffirmed Australia’s gold-plated AAA credit rating.

    “We are now one of only seven nations rated AAA with a stable outlook by all three major international agencies – something never achieved under any previous Australian government.”

    It’s a shame the media haven’t pointed out the hypocrisy of the opposition, who made so much of S&P dodgy numbers, and ignored completely the accurate figures (the ones corresponding to the ‘apolitical’ Treasury numbers, which hockey hates so much). Nothing to see here.

  17. Iain unfortunately makes a few errors:

    The ultimate goal of the carbon price is to avoid catastrophic climate change. But everyone knows that this will only happen with global action. The alternative, to do nothing, leads to a scenario where no one acts because no one has acted. It’s MAD. The carbon price has a simple and bipartisan goal: to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 5% by 2020. Claiming that proponents have stated that Australia’s carbon price will save the planet is a lie. Iain’s statement that the carbon price will be bad for the environment and the economy defies all evidence.

    “Frankly I don’t get how all of you minions of the left are so keen to support what is in essence a derivatives trading scheme that enriches speculators and shysters while impoverishing every other aspect of our economy by making it less efficient.”

    I don’t have a problem with people making money out of reducing carbon emissions: it increases the incentive to do so. That may make me unusual as a “minion of the left”. Provided the schemes are developed correctly, it will work. Producing less pollution would make our economy more efficient.

    “So its the long term uselessness of this scheme that the coalition base their campaign on rather than it being instant death for any one place like Whyalla. Its a slow poison like polonium instead of a quick one like cyanide but it can and will be economically fatal in the long run none the less.”

    As is quite clear from the post, the Coalition has not based their fear campaign solely on long-term concerns. This was going to hurt from day one. This despite what every credible economist (including Treasury) had said. Market-based mechanisms are effective (reduce emissions), efficient (emissions at least cost), and equitable. The Direct Action plan is inefficient, ineffective, and poses a significant risk to our economy if we have to pay for it.

  18. Catching Up:

    If we were unlucky enough for him to win, I can see him setting a record to be the shortest serving PM in history

    It’s a horrifying prospect, but unfortunately cannot be dismissed out of hand, given the determination of the plutocrats, vested interests and Liberal media to make it a reality. You would hope that the innate intelligence of the people would not allow it to happen to themselves, but a population brainwashed by among the most partisan one-sided media outside of North Korea is theoretically capable of being manipulated to vote against its own interests. A shameful situation our democracy is in. Tempered by economic sunshine; it’s a stark contradiction – ailing democracy : vibrant economy.

  19. Migs, good article. Abbott, and the two resident trolls here need to understand that “Wrong way, go back” is a good roadsign on freeway ramps but absolutely useless for a political agenda.

  20. Considering what is being exposed of having gone on in the previous Government that tabot was a member off, I can only imagine a return to these horrendous ways

    In what shapes as a second big international corruption scandal for Australia following the Reserve Bank bribery affair, cables show Australian officials knew in 2005 that a Philippines order for search and rescue vessels from Tenix was made without the required budgetary approvals in Manila.

    Read more:

    Add to that AWB, and there was a lot of very dodgy practices happening directly under the noses of the then Government.

    And tabot has declared that he wants to return to those ‘glory days’

  21. Are you lookin’ for a fight Tom?

    How do you fight an apparition? Especially one who thinks they aren’t there 😆

  22. Oh dear, always such a shame when a perfectly good topic gets hijacked by Liberal Party TROLLS, such as el gordo & Iain. If stupidity were a saleable resource, both of these guys would be an almost inexhaustible source of revenue-which is exactly what their mate, Abbott, is going to need to plug their ever growing black hole!

  23. “This blog has become a hate tabit love joolya show….its a stuck picture.” If you feel that way, el troll, then please feel free to depart-any time-& never return. I, for one, most certainly will not miss you!

  24. El gordo and,

    This blog has become a hate tabit love joolya show….its a stuck picture.

    Then it helps to provide a semblance of balance to the msm’s continuous papering over of the implications of Tony Abbott Prime Minister and his bunch of incompetents who have zero imagination pertaining to the future.

  25. What people like Iain still refuse to accept is that the GST had already begun impacting the economy-negatively-by this time in 2000. Australians were faced with higher Rates, Electricity, Phone & Water Bills-not to mention pricier goods at the supermarket. Petrol prices began to quickly rise-out of control-thanks to Howard placing the GST on the fuel excise (a tax on a tax-something Hockey has *now* decided he doesn’t like). Many Small to Medium Businesses were under the hammer, as they became unpaid tax collectors for the government. The housing market was already beginning to show signs of slowing (which is the genesis of the changes to Capital Gains Tax & the introduction of the First Home Owners Grant). Yet funny how you’ll never hear the likes of Iain criticising the introduction of the GST-or the hack-handed way in which it was implemented-because doing that would involve criticising his beloved Liberal Party.

  26. Can someone do a plot of Electricity Prices pls.

    It has been a pretty steady rise for a few years, the line largely unchanged by the implementation of the Carbon Price 😉

    ‘There will be no Carbon Tax’ But there will be a market mechanism. As promised on the eve of the election.

  27. Oh Voyager, that old chestnut again? Is that *really* the best you can do? First of all, she ruled out a Carbon Tax-but made it clear in the same quote that putting a price on carbon was a priority for any government she led. Second of all, this Carbon Price isn’t a *tax*, it’s an Emissions Trading Scheme with a 3 year, fixed price period. After that it becomes a fully market based scheme with a floating price (you know, the sort of mechanism that the Liberals are meant to be big fans of-rather than the pseudo-socialist “Direct Action” approach). Third of all, if you want to get into a contest about lies, then need we remind you-again-about the “Children Overboard” lie, the “no $200,000 degrees” lie, the “medicare safety net” lie, the “Work Choices” lie, the lies about AWB & WMD’s? If lying were an Olympic sport, then the Liberal Party would be our most successful Olympic team *ever*!!

  28. What a weird statement el gordo and “its only a chat room with everyone in agreement.” You mean to say that you consider that Iain, Voyager, Chris Townley etc etc are here just for decoration.. (I have a sneaking suspicion that someone somewhere else is pulling EG’s strings. 😉 )

  29. Well el gordo why don’t you just leave and go to all the love Abbott and hate Gillard sites out there. Bolt would be right up your alley and Menzies House just to name two.

    It seems the wingnuts are only happy when there are 100% anti-Labor and 100% pro-Liberal sites and commentary, and from experience even then they aren’t happy as the praise for their Liberal loved ones isn’t generous enough and the hate spewed out against Labor not spiteful enough.

  30. after all its only a chat room with everyone in agreement.

    I AGREE!!

    (except when I don’t)

    I sense a ‘self’ banning on the cards. Back for his Daily cry and seeking sympathy from like minded ‘warriors’. Perhaps even ‘ghosting’ for awhile?

  31. Min el gordo, in trolling, quite deliberately overlooks our criticisms.

    And this is born out by the utter nonsensical statement of everyone in agreement.

    el gordo in this thread has been throwing out one sentence scatter gun crap purely to troll to derail. Even for el gordo the current cockeyed bunch of el gordo crud posted here is scummier than is usual.

  32. Two Labor treasurers have been named by Euromoney as World’s Best. No, that is ZERO Liberal Treasurers have got the guernsey. That’s despite the Liberals having a guy in the chair hammock for the lengthiest period. Idleness and complacency are not rewarded.

  33. The faceless men ordering tabot about. From the ‘black box’ of lib hq

    ”If you insist on supporting these motions there will be World War III. We will blow the division up from underneath you. You will lose the [next] election.”

    Read more:

    I wonder if this will get as much traction as the ‘Faceless Men’ of Labor got? I’m pretty sure he is just teasing with this one though

    He would rather the Liberals lost the next federal election than he be allowed to lose his grip on power over the NSW government.

    As nice as it sounds 🙂

  34. Today Is a wonderful day in small business, new week, new Advertising contract and profits are up. Happy days indeed 🙂

    Make Cyberspace a better place, scroll the trolls.

  35. With thanks to Jack W* on Migs’ Australians for an Honest Media facebook group for the link. Courtesy of Wayne Swan..

    In the age of Twitter, blogging and the 24-hour news cycle, assertions are everywhere. Facts can be a lot harder to come by. That’s one of the reasons why I started writing these weekly economic notes three and a half years ago. I wanted to help strip away the many claims and counterclaims, and get back to the simple facts about what was really going on in our economy. Only with a firm foundation of facts can we have a considered and responsible debate about the economic opportunities and challenges we face as a nation. This is the best way to ensure we keep getting the big policy calls right for the benefit of all Australians.

  36. And courtesy of B1 of Tony Abbott Will Never Be Prime Minister facebook group..

    (B1) Abbott really is a moron … on radio this morning he said “Instead of the Prime Minister wasting time in New York she should be in Indonesia talking to the President” Who, incidentally IS ALSO in New York! Who is advising this man???? Peta Cretin?

  37. They’ve given up on the NBN too

    The Federal Opposition is launching a survey to help a future Coalition government decide which areas to prioritise for faster broadband services.

    The Coalition says it will not be able to provide a fully costed broadband policy by the next election, but says its plan will be cheaper and completed sooner than the Government’s National Broadband Network (NBN).

    Their policy is now ‘trust us, she’ll be right’ 😉

  38. The three men are Michael Photios, a lobbyist, Alex Hawke, a federal MP, and David Clarke, a state MP. They have unleashed a process they can no longer control.

    I don’t know much about Photios but Hawke and Clarke are another matter.

    A few years ago the ABC Four Corners did an exposé on the NSW religious right and their destructive grab for power by removing Liberal moderates from seats to be replaced by far right wing religious nut jobs.

    Clarke was the leader and Hawke as a Young Liberal at the time did the running around of gathering blank ballots and other nefarious activities to rig the votes. They made Labor factional fighting look mild in comparison.

    Hawke when he entered NSW State politics was quickly tagged as a future Federal pollie, which came about quickly and is touted as a future Liberal leader and PM.

    He is worse than Abbott by a long way because not only does Hawke have Abbott’s warped beliefs and methodologies, unlike Abbott, Hawke is smart and politically astute in the Howard devious way.

  39. Their ABC:

    The Coalition says it will not be able to provide a fully costed broadband policy by the next election

    I guess that’s because they’re committed to spending the next 12 months as they have the past five years: in spinning, sloganeering and whoring the media from morning to night.

    The NOpposition – The laziest Opposition in history.

  40. Tom r

    ‘The dog ate my broadband costings’

    That must have been straight after the dog vomited.

    Or Turnbull’s cost benefit analysis was too hard to swallow

  41. Acting PM Swan pointed out at the press conference that Tony Abbott should apologise after getting the facts about “she”, being the PM, and going to Djarkarta rather than the UN.
    Gosh I bet the msm will now accuse Swanny of carrrying a handbag for pointing out that not only did Abbott get his facts wrong but the radio shock jock also was uninformed.

  42. El gordo has also clearly overlooked the recent opposing views of Treeman and Curry.

    Me thinks she’s better off on a site where they mostly all nod in agreement over how bad Labor is or how leftish CW is.

    It’s the sort of groupthink she feels more comfortable with.

  43. Hey whisperers, wrote this last week, thought it might fit here.

    What A Joke the LNP are.

    What a joke the LNP are….. they really aren’t that smart
    Their federal leader… Abbott….does nothing but brain fart
    Misogynist and pugilist… he’s good at punching walls
    But as far as women and policy… he really has no balls

    His deputy the Bishop… says the Tony that I know
    Volunteers with local fire-ies… to put on quite a show
    He guides the blind through marathons… and walks on water too
    But Bishop.. just like Abbott.. is full of cattle poo

    Pyne enunciated the same script.. falling prostrate to the floor
    While proving once and for all time… he’s Abbotts little hoar
    He’s called the mincing poodle.. and he’s great at dummy spits
    But as leader of opposition business.. he gives everyone the shits

    Rolley poley Hockey… the alternate treasurer man
    Proves that numbers aren’t his forte…dragging figures from the can
    Claiming economic management… is the LNPs great strength
    While to hide his budget black hole.. he will go to any length

    Their antics in the question time… are legendary for sure
    Like the time that Thomson sent Pyne and Abbot.. running for the door
    And asking.. nothing much of relevance… but always calling for a vote
    To suspend the standing orders…their stupidity to promote

    Abetz their senate leader… is a man with little cred
    Taking fact and truth and reason…and putting them to bed
    Opting rather for the spin and lies.. that set the libs apart
    Coming second to the Abbott… in the stakes for best brain fart

    And they talk the talk with slogans… and abuse our great PM
    Using lies and obfuscation to turn attention… away from them
    But when they’re asked the tougher questions.. then it ceases to be fun
    So instead of walking the walk.. the bastards turn their backs and run

    In Victoria.. there’s Ted Ballieu… causing death by a thousand cuts
    To the public service sector… by his right wing bag of nuts
    And in New South Wales it’s O’Farrell…with his promises all shot
    A hundred and thirty and counting… means he’s lied an awful lot

    With Campbell Newman.. the new kid on the block… cutting services galore
    Pushing that tired old right wing chestnut….. that less is really more
    Telling lies about the economy using books Costello cooked
    While his model’s admired by Hockey and Abbott with both completely hooked

    Under Labors financial management… the GFC we dodged
    But with Abbott and his cronies.. all we’ll get is figures bodged
    And so give the reigns of power… to this rabble if you dare
    But don’t risk it if you have regard.. for our… Australia.. fair

    Cheers 😆 😀 😆

  44. @Iain. It’s a carbon price not a tax. You can’t trade taxes on international markets. Also, is your solution to do nothing about climate change because according to you acting will achieve nothing? Can you provide scientific and economic evidence to support your claim that a carbon price doesn’t reduce carbon pollution and can you also provide your miracle solution to the problem. Thanks

  45. Migs, glad you liked it.
    Verse is a great way to highlight what a grubby little pathetic bunch they really are, while having a chuckle at their expense.

    They really are a JOKE. 😀 😆 😀 😆



  46. Can you provide scientific and economic evidence to support your claim

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

    Oh, you were serious? 😯

  47. Ricky, great to know there are so many people here at the cafe who appreciate a bit of looney left musing.

    Cheers 😆 😀 😆

  48. It is said that much of that money spent in compensation has given stimulus to the economy. In fact it could be said it has helped in preventing us going backwards.

  49. ‘true attention-getter called self banning…’

    Seems like only yesterday when you went off in a huff…

    I’ll drop in occasionally when the mood takes me.

  50. Skeptical,
    nice one on par with patriciawa, now resides in my poem file.
    Julia in US and Tones in the mire where only the depth varies. As you what a joke

  51. el gordo, you are deliberately misleading or are thick. On a right wing site, we would not get t look in. No way are they going to allow their dubious opinions be tainted by any comment from the likes of us.

  52. CU surely you Jest?

    “On a right wing site, we would not get t look in. No way are they going to allow their dubious opinions be tainted by any comment from the likes of us.”
    I know of at least one “right wing site” where your comments would be welcome.
    You are projecting here and think that all right wing sites would be as willing to ban or otherwise exclude dissenting opinions as you would wish was the case here.

  53. We don’t jest, Iain. I’ve tried posting comments at several Right Wing sites-& no matter how many facts I use to back up my posts, I find myself banned within less than 24 hours of telling them something they don’t want to hear-after being subjected to abuse (& horrible grammar) that’d make your ears bleed. Your accusations of “projection” are discredited by the fact that you, Curry, Voyager et al are free to post your fact-free rants without penalty.

  54. Iain, that’s like saying we shouldn’t bother picking up litter. At the very least, by reducing our emissions, we will not be increasing the pollution currently puffed into the atmosphere

    Very small business (VSB) has been screwed by the carbon tax…

    WTF!!! are you gibbering on about grodo? Any FACTS (you do know what they are?) to support your ludicrous statement? Apart from the FACT that there isn’t a carbon tax and that VSB, MSB (medium sized business) or LB (large business) unless they are among the country’s 500 highest emitters.

    I’ll tell you the biggest drain on VSB, SB, MSB and LB-Tony Feckin’ Abbott’s GST? The greatest rip off in the history of taxation.

    Oh and what a fine idea-modelling our health and education systems on the US model. That’ll do us a power of good. 😯

    I suppose you’re in lockstep with the world’s richest woman (who inherited her wealth, btw), who reckons that slave labour is a fine thing for the peasants. Stop ’em drinking and getting any pleasure out of life.

    Feel free not to honour your promise to return.

    Voyager, are you really as thick as your post suggests? Or are you just a troll? Just in case being as thick as 3 short planks is responsible for your complete inability to comprehend English, there is NO carbon tax.

    There is a price on carbon emissions payable at the rate of $23/tonne by the nation’s 500 highest emitters, as PROMISED by Julia Gillard.

    So you should bugger off until your ability to read and comprehend even the simplest sentence rises above kindergarten level. No wonder Liealot’s slogans are so lame if you’re an example of the IQ of his slogan “writers”.

    No, changed my mind. You’re just a common or garden Liars Party wanker.

    Min @10.37am, unfortunately we’re in no danger of the Liars Party availing themselves of any facts.

    The dog ate my broadband costings

    Or Sloppy spilt his nosh all over them and the ink ran, Tom R.

    ME, Alex Hawke is a very nasty piece of work along Liealot’s lines. Yet another thuggish Liars party bully.

  55. Jane, when ever we ask for facts from the likes of Iain, curry,, el gordo, etc, they offer none or just go and hide for a few days, or abuse you for giving the right facts., typical liberals party supporters.

  56. paulwello facts like these:

    Since GFC Australia’s economy grew +11%, Canada +4%, Germany +2.9% USA +1.8%, France -0.5% Japan -1%, UK -4.2%, Italy -6.3%.

  57. Tony Abbott’s boats broadside misfires, after he declares the PM should be in Jakarta, not New York
    BY: BEN PACKHAM AND SID MAHER From: The Australian September 24, 2012
    TONY Abbott has been accused of a blunder after declaring Julia Gillard should be in Jakarta talking to President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, when she is preparing to speak to him in New York in coming days.

    Ms Gillard and President Yudhoyono have no formal bilateral meeting scheduled during the UN General Assembly this week, but will meet on the sidelines of event.


  58. No. I never jest about this.

    Remember back when we would make comments about other sites we contribute too, never getting anything posted.

    Why would I jest about such a well known fact.

  59. Visitor, surely you are not recommending yours. Why, don’t you think we get enough of you here.

    Nothing there to interest me at all. Come to think of it, nothing you contribute here does either.

    Do you wonder sometimes, why none from here visit.

  60. I know of at least one “right wing site” where your comments would be welcome.

    They said ‘right wing’, not bat-shit crazy (although, to be honest, those lines are blurring more and more by the day)

  61. If the visitor’s were to put up some kind of argument instead of rubbish they are pushing, give links to back there so called arguments, they might actually learn something. That web site by the so called visitor is the best the right have, I do not have to say any more.

  62. paulwello @5.47pm, unfortunately so. Their only contribution to any discussion is to trot out Liealot’s tired and tiring slogans and keep repeating the carbon tax lie meme, which has been well and truly exposed as Liars party spin and opportunistic rubbish.

  63. Joe Hockey is getting canned on his 7:30 Report interview. I didn’t see it so am only getting snippets.

    Hockey caught out in a direct lie.

    Hockey: Another big Labor lie…. that I said 20,000 public servants would go under us. Penny Wong where did I say that?

    Wong: JOE: We will cut public service. UHLMANN: By 20,000? JOE: And we’ve already said that.

    Transcript of Hockey saying he’d cut 20,000 public servants available ABC online.

  64. Turnbull was grilled tonight on 730 Report so I don’t know which interview they are referring to with Hockey?

    Had a chuckle. Turnbull a month ago saying he had fully costed alternate broadband policy he could release immediately and today says the details of the costs won’t be worked out until after the election.

  65. ‘…when ever we ask for facts from the likes of Iain, curry,, el gordo, etc, they offer none or just go and hide for a few days, or abuse you for giving the right facts…’

    Iain is polite and doesn’t abuse anyone, curry is an abuser and …I can’t speak for myself.

    Dally Trash is open to different view points, a balance between left and right, but you may get abused there. The beauty of going outside your comfort zone into a robust environment is that you are forced to defend your beliefs…which I find very educational.

    This allows for reinforcement through new insights or modification when proved wrong…very healthy.

  66. “Different viewpoints” an interesting definition of Liars party spin, obfuscation, lies and sloganeering trotted out as a laughable and dishonest counter argument to facts and the truth.

  67. Abuse is never healthy el gordo.

    Modification when proved wrong. I call bullshit on that one. You have been proved wrong so often it’s become a running joke but for a long time now you have not modified by a single comma of the way you post or changed with the proof presented to you.

    So don’t go on about reinforcement through new insights or modification.

  68. anyone who starts, or attempts to engage, with a lie is not polite, lie(s) are abusive in themselves, additionally demonstrating contempt for those being lied to, by the liar(s).

    pity the trolls, consistently wrong on everything, at war with reality and the rest of the world, too stupid to recognise their blindness, as their souls fester in malice and spite, unable to learn, unable to recognise their own failings even when confronted by evidence, the worst fact of their nightmare(s).

  69. ‘you have not modified by a single comma of the way you post or changed with the proof presented to you.’

    In post normal science even laymen can read papers and make up their own mind, whereas ‘you lot’ have faith in what scientists say without questioning the science. This is not beneficial, particularly as you see everything in political terms.

  70. Noice prose pet, but all this stuff about ‘evidence’ and ‘facts’ is the debate we still need to have.

    For example, if the Arctic is losing ice in summer at an alarming rate, shouldn’t Antarctica also be feeling the stress?

  71. the arctic ice cover is shrinking, no ifs or buts about it.

    the antarctic is also showing effects.

    i’ve yet to see any troll who will take notice of links given to them, why don’t you break the pattern, and show you’re capable of independent thought?

  72. Can already hear them already, Iain, el gordo and all the denialists, oh yes but this is a natural occurrence and happens all the time and that is what climate does.

    TA is the biggest fool in this country after his out burst on the PM visiting NY instead of going to Indonesia to talk with the president there. Just had to laugh at that, as did a lot of people here.

  73. In post normal science even laymen can ignore the science. 😉

    Yes ME, turnbull, and probably hockey, look like they will get away with their ‘mis-speaks’. What is telling, is that commentators like grattan, a true Gilard hater, appears to be cutting tabot loose

    The mistake came after some difficult weeks for Abbott, when he has contradicted himself about whether he had read a BHP Billiton press release and shifted his story about an incident from his university days.

    Read more:

    It is interesting that she largely ignored the first incident, defended him on the second, but now, is starting to turn on him for this last one. has the worm, as they say, turned?

  74. Last brain fart. Tony is going to order a white paper with eighteen months, and raised spending on defence. Why I would ask, as one is due next year, set in place by this government. Is he saying he cannot trust this one, as Labor is in power. Once again insulting present day defence personnel.

    So we are moving on from government waste, and big debts, that are in the eye of the Coalition and does not compute with the facts, to lack of border control.

    He is purchasing drones to protect our borders. Who from, a few refugees. This has already been seen as a little stupid and unnecessary.

    Yesterday, Mr, Abbott demanded the PM goes to Indonesia, to tell the Indonesians what to do, and how to do it. How this was to occur, when the leader is in New York along with the PM.

    A PM by the way, has always shown that she never wastes as a opportunity to work on behalf of Australians while overseas.

    Known the PM’s ability to carried many different functions at one time, I am sure the PM is dealing with all that needs to be done. This is unlike Mr. Abbott, who appears to be one tracked mind and can only do one thing at a time. He is in no way multi-tasked, as the PM is.

    His outbursts are becoming more bizarre as time goes on.

    I imagine the PM will also be spending time with the Malaysian leader as well. Which Mr. Abbott ignores, but maybe more important.

    Once again Mr. Abbott is saying no to Australia being represented on the UN seat, as we have been four times in the past.

    PM is sick, but is still carrying out duties, talking behind the scenes. The PM is in New York for five days. I imagine, as she usually does, will be using her time widely.

    Health Minister very good last night on Q and A.

    Turnbull once again out, wanting to change QT. Blaming in words the PM but in reality undermining Mr. Abbott. He does make sense though. QT needs to move back to questioning the government and raising concerns, not acting in a full adversarial role.


  75. Mr. Abbott did not say who he is going to ask to compile that white paper. Obviously not the experts of the present defence force, whom he distrusts. Maybe a private security firm, not a catering firm, I suspect.

  76. Yes, the boxer once again leading the slugger, that generally occurs in a boxing match.

    TONY Abbott has swung one political punch too many, and yesterday floored himself.
    As Julia Gillard arrived in the United States for a last-ditch effort to garner support for Australia’s Security Council bid, Mr Abbott insisted she should be elsewhere.
    With boat arrivals continuing apace, he said rather than ”swanning around in New York talking to Africans,” spruiking for votes, she should be in Indonesia ”because that is where Australia’s national interest is most at stake right now.”
    ”Rather than talking to African countries trying to drum up the numbers to get us a temporary seat on the UN Security Council, she should be in Jakarta talking to President Yudhoyono – talking about how we can co-operate better with the Indonesians to stop this flow which is putting our border protection hopelessly under the pump.”
    Unfortunately for Abbott, President Yudhoyono wasn’t in Jakarta but just where Gillard was – in New York.
    Acting Prime Minister Wayne Swan quickly jumped on the gaffe, attacking the opposition leader for not knowing what was ”a clear matter of public record”. ”Mr Abbott ought to retract his statements immediately – he ought to apologise for them. He ought to give an undertaking that he’s going to give up this reckless negativity which is always in complete defiance of the facts.” He also pointed out that when Abbott had met Yudhoyono in Australia he ”did not have the courage” to raise his tow-back policy.
    The mistake came after some difficult weeks for Abbott, when he has contradicted himself about whether he had read a BHP Billiton press release and shifted his story about an incident from his university days.

    Read more:

  77. Could go in the media thread.

    Very telling this morning that the commercial TV and radio networks reported Abbott’s gaffe on the PM swanning around the UN with Africans in a negative light, highlighting the fact the Indonesian PM who Abbott was saying Gillard should be meeting in Indonesia was also in New York and they showed or spoke of her meeting Yudhoyono at the UN, except for ABC TV and radio, who reported Carr’s criticism of Abbott being Anglophobic and showed or spoke of Gillard meeting Yudhoyono, but not once did they mention Abbott’s gaffe or even allude to it.

  78. Swan attempts to pull rabbit from hat.

    ‘WAYNE Swan is promising an unprecedented $45 billion turnaround in the nation’s fortunes without resorting to major cuts in the bureaucracy.

    ‘As economists yesterday cast doubt on the Treasurer’s ability to return the budget to a $1.5bn surplus this year, given the sharp fall in company tax revenue, Mr Swan vowed to meet what he said was a “significant” shortfall in tax revenue with fresh budget savings.’

    David Uren in the Oz

  79. el gordo will you promise to show new insights and modification by saying you were utterly wrong and are nearly always wrong if Swan does bring in a surplus?

    Not that the surplus matters and in fact we should be encouraging Swan to allow the deficit as that is better economically for the nation.

    But as they have nothing else positive in their very limited kitty of gross negativity, the conservatives rattle on about surpluses as the be all and end all of economics because they are written in black and have a plus sign in front of them, that’s about the full extent of their understanding of economics.

  80. el gordo @ 7:19 am

    Are you going to follow up on your statement of new insights and modifications over that link you provided.

    No sources, no data and it doesn’t purport to say what you think it does. You only chose that article from the Rational Optimist in the Wall Street Journal as one sentence mentions that the Antarctic hasn’t warmed, which by the way is what the global warming models predict.

    So how about some science instead.

    Global Warming Facts An OverviewFull

    “Antarctic sea ice hasn’t seen these big reductions we’ve seen in the Arctic. This is not a surprise to us,” said climate scientist Mark Serreze, director of the NSIDC. “Some of the skeptics say ‘Well, everything is OK because the big changes in the Arctic are essentially balanced by what’s happening in the Antarctic.’ This is simply not true.” [Former Global Warming Skeptic Makes a ‘Total Turnaround‘]

    Projections made from climate models all predict that global warming should impact Arctic sea ice first and most intensely, Serreze said. “We have known for many years that as the Earth started to warm up, the effects would be seen first in the Arctic and not the Antarctic. The physical geography of the two hemispheres is very different. Largely as a result of that, they behave very differently.”

    Global Warming in Antarctica
    8 Ways Global Warming Is Already Changing the World
    Global warming threatens the world’s largest ice cube

    And even Ltd News conspires against you el gordo: Vast ice shelf in Antarctic has shrunk by 85pc since 1995

    That is the merest fraction of the scientific information you can get from the web.

    So are now going to follow your own tenet of new insights and modifications? Of course bloody not, hypocrite.

  81. David Uren in the Oz

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

    What’s that saying about predicting 12 of the past 2 downturns


  82. Swan attempts to pull rabbit from hat.

    Should be interesting watching part two of that cartoon should the surplus come in

  83. El gordo,

    “Dally Trash is open to different view points, a balance between left and right, but you may get abused there”. The abuse is a certainty.

  84. Tom, at least Swan has a chance of achieving this which compares with Hockey…

    Ouch. That’s hitting below the belt Min 😉

  85. Apologies if this has already been mentioned, but isn’t Abbott being just a wee bit racist.. Africans aren’t important!!??? I assume that Abbott means African from that continent rather than African Americans. Taken at his word, that statement might not go down overly well in New York….

    Michelle Grattan has a go…love the headline: Abbott punches the foot in his mouth.

    With boat arrivals continuing apace, he said rather than ”swanning around in New York talking to Africans,” spruiking for votes, she should be in Indonesia ”because that is where Australia’s national interest is most at stake right now.”

  86. Back on the original post…
    PMT still appears to be refusing to let go of the wrecking ball and, more than that, his continued talking down of the economy makes it look like he’s standing on it while it flails about. Imagine what the economy would have been doing for the last few years without the scare campaign!
    On the Carbon Price, Iain, I don’t care if what we do makes no physical difference for 2 reasons. 1). We take the moral high ground. Perhaps starting the wrecking ball rolling in the direction of oil companies might encourage others to take up the cause or perhaps it won’t, but, 2) Economies are changing and the renewable economy is worth billions if not trillions right now, even before it takes off fully. Should we risk being left behind?

  87. Yes Tom R…. Woz…is a bit of a legend. He recognises and understands the benefits of strategic forward thinking though his own experience at Apple, one of the great innovators of the modern age. This is our modern Snowy river Hydro or National Highway project. Its a scalable foundation for the future that is way beyond the understanding of the ideologically enslaved politicised simpletons who embarrass themselves with luddite language.

  88. BMac, I think that is the most important reason of all as to why Tony Abbott does not deserve to be Prime Minister; to him it’s all about winning the election and he simply does not care about the methods used to obtain this goal.

    As to what happens after the election should Australia have the misfortune to have Tony Abbott as Prime Minister, Tony simply does not care because winning is the game. Certainly neither the process of how you arrive at that point, nor concern about *what happens next* are a part of Abbott’s consideration.

  89. ‘Economies are changing and the renewable economy is worth billions if not trillions right now, even before it takes off fully. Should we risk being left behind?’

    Renewables are fine but they shouldn’t be subsidised. The best use for solar is in the great outback. Windfarms are already becoming dinosaurs and further growth will undoubtedly be curtailed once the subsidy is removed.

  90. There is movement afoot in the UK to stop the spread of windfarms because they are ‘unreliable, expensive and utterly impractical.

  91. ‘So are now going to follow your own tenet of new insights and modifications? Of course bloody not, hypocrite.’

    Just noticed your comment, I’ll enjoy reading those links.

    Did you know 10% of Australia is reserved for parks and exempt from agriculture; add aboriginal claims and you have an area larger than NSW and Victoria?

  92. Again and again from a person who has made a statement on insights and modifications we see emphatic trolling statements, made as facts but not a single source or data to back them up.

    Also you do know that non-renewable energy is subsidised to a far greater extent than renewable el gordo? The nuclear power industry would have collapsed decades ago if it weren’t for the billions of tax payers money poured into it to keep it viable.

  93. This is an inappropriate thread to talk about ice loss in Antarctica, but on a brief reading ‘East Antarctica seems to remain in balance or slightly gain mass’ (Chen et al).

    I’ll attempt to answer the other questions over at ‘CO2 and You’ (Daily Trash)…

  94. Welcome to the UK Wind Energy Database – UKWED – the most definitive database on wind energy projects in the UK, both onshore and offshore, tracking project progress from submission through to operation. UKWED offers a range of statistical information, tables and maps, which is automatically updated as and when new data is entered, divided into four categories for those projects in planning, consented, under construction and operational.

    And I’m not going to post the dozens of other links and sources as the troll will just ignore them and throw in a distraction of another one or two sentence emphatic statement with nothing to back it up. Designed purely to derail and get attention but not add anything to a topic or discussion.

  95. ‘…made as facts but not a single source or data to back them up.’

    There is a groundswell against windfarms, they can’t carry base load and are a health hazard to those who live nearby.

  96. For a person who went on about insight and modification to correct wrongs it must be sad to go through life being so wrong all the time and having so little knowledge on the topics being discussed.

  97. Facts el gordo? You have made those same fallacious claims before, been put in your place by the facts, especially on the proven lies of the health hazard claim, and here you are making the same erroneous statements again.

    You go on about insight and modification when proven wrong but you don’t adhere to your own tenet. Hypocrite.

  98. Mobius your partisan view is amusing…

    ‘Britain’s windfarms broke a new record on Friday by providing over four gigawatts of power to the National Grid – enough to light and heat more than 3m British homes.’

    There was a windstorm I think.

  99. El gordo, not many here are taking your bait. What makes you think we’ll go racing over to the Daily Trash to engage you?

  100. FMD – if that one don’t take the cake 🙄

    ‘Britain’s windfarms broke a new record on Friday by providing over four gigawatts of power to the National Grid – enough to light and heat more than 3m British homes.’

    There was a windstorm I think.

    And then a link to a windstorm in ALASKA 😆 😆

    You really are nothing but a joke, aren’t you el gordo?

  101. el gordo your lame attack of calling people here partisan is all the more ridiculous considering the unbending partisan view you hold, and even more so from someone who made a statement about insight and modification on being proven wrong, yet you never bend an iota no matter how many times you are proven wrong, which is all the time.

    Hypocrite much methinks.

  102. You do know that wind farms have an lower and upper limit on wind speed and shut down feathering the blades if too high a speed is reached, like in a windstorm?

    Another case of not knowing what the subject is but still making incorrect emphatic statements of fact.

    I’m often wrong but at least I know that I can sometimes have it right, but I shudder at the thought of always being wrong on most everything being discussed or raised.

  103. Investment in Renewables between 2004 and 2010 was over 800 billion dollars. In this report they “are concentrating on renewable power and fuels rather than the wider definition of clean energy, which includes energy-smart technologies such as smart grid and electric vehicles, covered in previous years’ reports.” So if I understand correctly, a significant amount of investment has not been covered in the attached report.

    Click to access BNEF_global_trends_in_renewable_energy_investment_2011_report.pdf

    So, should we be a part of this or not? Forget adjusting the economy to work in this new environment? I think not.

    Wind Farms and health – “is what we can call a “communicated” disease: it spreads via the nocebo effect by being talked about, and is thereby a strong candidate for being defined as a psychogenic condition.”

    Nocebo effect. lol. Maybe PMT lives near a windfarm then…

  104. El Gordo, love people like you mate…Broad sweeping statements like…Renewables are fine but they shouldn’t be subsidised……Wind farms are dinosaurs….Subjective, expensive and irrational…..I take it your a climate sceptic too? Oil has been subsidised in one form of another over the course of last century. I particularly like the term “base load power:”, that’s a killer ROTFL. If we encouraged people to use solar power in their houses with the most rudimentary system, their maximum average consumption would be 1/3 of what they use leaving the rest to be returned to the grid. This effectively eliminates the whole electricity rip off culture that prevails at the moment.

    Future economic and social prosperity requires an investment in the future. That future lies in technology, telecommunications, food security and renewables. A business case for infrastructure cannot be qualified in the short term, otherwise we would not have built a road, hospital or have enjoyed the innovative application of infrastructure we have today.

    [b]Its arguments like yours that resound in history as ridiculous jokes.[/b]
    There is no reason for an individual to have a computer in their home….

    Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible…..

    I think there is a world market for maybe five computers….

    The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a ‘mouse.’ There is no evidence that people want to use these things….

    [move][b]Of course there are then those who see the future clearly because they understand and appreciate what is possible and highly probable[/b][/move]

    For one person who is blessed with the power of invention, many will always be found who have the capacity of applying principles.
    — Charles Babbage

    Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former. – Albert Einstein

    When it comes to the future, there are three kinds of people: those who let it happen, those who make it happen, and those who wonder what happened.
    – John M. Richardson

  105. The Wind farm effect was a global misinformation campaign invented by an American paediatrician with no experience in acoustics, but whose husband was an active campaigner against wind energy. In Australia one woman, an unregistered doctor, ran the wind turbine syndrome myth and talked people she visited into symptoms.

    A German study found that wind turbine syndrome symptoms were directly linked to whether you were or were not getting paid to have turbines on your property or whether you were anti-wind turbine in the first place.

    In other words if your neighbour was getting paid for having turbines on their property or got subsidised power, and because of your location you didn’t, then you got the syndrome whilst the people with the turbines on their properties remained perfectly healthy. Towns that got subsidised power from nearby turbines were perfectly normal health wise for the population size but those down the road that didn’t get subsidised power had high incidents of wind turbine syndrome.

    We have gone through this all before with el gordo and I have no doubt it’s all been duly ignored by the intransigent hypocrite and will as a troll distraction will be raised again in a one sentence emphatic statement with nothing to back it up.

  106. “Global investment in renewable power and fuels increased 17% to a new record of $257 billion in 2011. Developing economies made up 35% of this total investment, compared to 65% for developed economies.

    The US closed in on China in the race to be the lead investor in Renewable Energy, with a 57% leap in its outlays to $51 billion. India however, displayed the fastest expansion rate for investment of any large renewables market in the world in 2011, with a 62% increase to $12 billion.

    One of the dominant features of the Renewable Energy landscape in 2011 was falling technology costs. Photovoltaic module prices fell by close to 50%, and onshore wind turbine prices by around 10%. These changes brought these two leading renewable power technologies closer to competitiveness with fossil-fuel alternatives such as coal and gas. The other key feature was a weakening in policy support for Renewable Energy in many developed countries. This reflected austerity pressures, particularly in Europe, and legislative deadlock in the US Congress.”

    Gee, I wonder why costs are falling? Perhaps its ‘market mechanisms’? Is it perhaps related to demand? The outback must have a heck of a need for solar panels…

  107. Handyrab(bit). this from your link:-
    One of Commoner’s lasting legacies is his four laws of ecology, as written in The Closing Circle in 1971.
    The four laws are:

    1. Everything is Connected to Everything Else. There is one ecosphere for all living organisms and what affects one, affects all.
    2. Everything Must Go Somewhere. There is no “waste” in nature and there is no “away” to which things can be thrown.
    3. Nature Knows Best. Humankind has fashioned technology to improve upon nature, but such change in a natural system is, says Commoner, “likely to be detrimental to that system.”
    4. There Is No Such Thing as a Free Lunch. Exploitation of nature will inevitably involve the conversion of resources from useful to useless forms.
    El Gordo has reached point 4 .. 😀

  108. Rabbit and LOVO, excellent. I cannot help but think that a lot of the current attitude springs from our imported ancestors who saw the land as something to be tamed, to have control over. Having supposedly now tamed the land, we have also lost our respect for her and the forces of nature. Hence point 4.

  109. It was probably back around 1980 when you were reading Commoner h’rab that I recall that the installed capacity of conventional power stations was costing around $1 per watt.

    PV was many multiples of that despite the promises of breakthroughs ‘any day now’

    Lovo’s link talks about PV installed capacity costing around $3 per watt installed capacity (in 2012 dollars !) seems remarkable. And no fueling costs !

    I’d take a guess and say that’s probably less than for conventional thermal.

    No wonder AGL’s right in there.

  110. Well they elected Sarah Palin

    I take it all back, they deserve the worst we can do (and grodo would be pretty close to that I reckon)

  111. ‘Well they elected Sarah Palin., Tom R… maybe there’s room for one more’

    That’s pretty bloody funny ‘rab

  112. Scones Palin should get out more often and have a look at what is happening in her ‘the last frontier’ (US wise)…. instead what does she do…. goes to tea-parties…… 😀

  113. I don’t think that we’ve had this link as yet..

    Primetime coverage of global warming at Fox News is overwhelmingly misleading, according to a new report that finds the same is true of climate change information in the Wall Street Journal op-ed pages.

    Both outlets are owned by Rupert Murdoch’s media company News Corporation. The analysis by the science-policy nonprofit Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS) finds that 93 percent of primetime program discussions of global warming on Fox News are inaccurate, as are 81 percent of Wall Street Journal editorials on the subject.

    “It’s like they were writing and talking about some sort of bizarre world where climate change isn’t happening,” study author Aaron Huertas, a press secretary at UCS, told LiveScience.

  114. “It’s like they were writing and talking about some sort of bizarre world where climate change isn’t happening,”

    There’s some we know that also live in that bizarro world.

  115. The Bizarro Bird Elgordis Soundthesamerus
    “Nasty bushwackin’ animals!
    As you say, the male makes it’s very annoying call, endlessly, driving everyone crazy” …….. with that trolling grunt as it pushes logic out of the nest 😀

  116. Ricky Pann @ 2:01 pm

    That vid about the firies in NSW is just shocking. Why isn’t htis being highlighted in the news? Or is it?

  117. No Tom, the media is still attempting to cover for O’Farrell and mostly ignore anything he does politically whilst giving full coverage to his swanning around or meaningless chest thumping.

    As it’s a union exposing this the media won’t have a bar to do with it.

  118. Yet they repeat, unquestioned, what politicians say, often to their detriment.

    I hope this goes further but, considering it appears that Ramjan really doesn’t want to be involved in politics at all, I wouldn’t be holding my breath.

    Well received decency.Alan Jones Broadcast apology to Barbara Ramjan 2GB #auspol

    I wonder if Kroger will display the same decency after he smeared her?

  119. Barbara Ramjan is married to a ‘former Supreme Court judge who was himself a former Royal Commissioner and the President of the Mental Health Tribunal the same Barabra Ramjan I now find out has an Honours degree from Sydney university in Philosophy. She is a Guardian of the Supreme Court and other courts.’


  120. Amazing.

    Not as amazing as Kroger calling her a liar, and the oo printing that slander for him, and apparently pyne is in on it too.

    We can only hope that action is forthcoming.

  121. There was a windstorm I think.

    I think I know who provided the wind.

    Min@ 11.30am, why am I not surprised to see that the wizened foreigner’s claw is in Fox News and the New York Journal? I wonder if Liealot and the Nopposition shadow front bench are regular contributors?

  122. I fully agree with jane 24/sep/2012 @ 5:39 pm
    Anybody spouting americanisms over health or education as a model to follow is just displaying how ignorant they are. The american system fails so many of its own citizens, it is ridiculous to hold it up as a model to follow. By all means, hold it up as a model to avoid.

  123. Looks like it’s open season on tabot

    hehehe, we’re hunting tabbots 🙂

    Abbott went first and managed to bend the pole a little, at which two policemen emerged from a car parked across the road and arrested him.”

    Why is something as trivial and unimportant as this on the table, like I have said all along, if they want to get down and dirty and scrape through every piece of mud on the PM, then expect it back. And, as Latham says, Paul Kelly himself has given his approval for it.

    I’m not a fan of it, what happened way back when is largely irrelevant to what happens now. I guess, by today’s standards in personal accountability, if I were to enter politics in the future, I’d be screwed. But, they have played this grubby game for a long time the libs, even more grubbily since they lost the last election. Too late to cry about it now. Yet they will

    Last month, the Australian’s editor-at-large, Paul Kelly, rewrote the rule book. He argued that the Gillard allegations, involving questions of professional reputation, were part of the “character test” which should be applied to political leaders. “It is absurd to pretend there is no public interest simply because the test is not about criminal behaviour”, he said.

    In a blow to the Coalition’s electoral standing, the Kelly thesis has legitimised scrutiny of Abbott’s past, most notably “the punch” incident in David Marr’s Quarterly Essay.

    This is a fight the opposition cannot win. For every ancient allegation against Gillard, there are dozens about Abbott, many of them more damaging to the Liberal leader’s standing than “the punch”.

    Given The Australian’s editorial support for Abbott, Kelly’s intervention has been an own goal. Think of it this way: what sort of fool would run Newt Gingrich against Hillary Clinton but then campaign on matters of personal character and history? This is the equivalent of what Kelly has done with Abbott and Gillard.

    The next step for the anti-Abbott forces will be to investigate other aspects of his colourful past, such as the hooliganism outlined in Duffy’s book. A series of questions remain unanswered.

  124. The parallel universe constructed by the right is built primarily on talking points, of which “47 per cent of Americans pay no tax” is a great example. These talking points work well, within the rightwing universe, no matter how misleading they are, and how thoroughly refuted by left/liberal critics. These talking points are never subjected to sharp questioning by the centrist media, nor do they need to fit into a coherent analysis. The 47 per cent line got a good run in the Republican primary campaign, and didn’t cause any trouble for Rick Perry or Michelle Bachmann (they caused enough for themselves).

    Things change when a point like this escapes into a general election campaign, especially when it is attached to a definite number and a definite group of people. Mitt Romney won’t tell senior citizens or low-wage workers in North Carolina that they are part of the 47 per cent he’s written off, but the Obama campaign will certainly do it for him. Romney can either stay silent and hope it all blows over or try the kind of tortured “clarification” being offered by people like Erickson.

    That piece is in regards to Romney and the Right in America but in Right Wing post truth politics it applies equally to Abbott and the Right Wing here along with their media mouth pieces.

    A very recent example is Turnbull’s lies on the NBN and the costs and benefits of the Coalition’s flawed broadband non-policy. Not all that long ago Turnbull would have been able to get away with the utter bullshit he espoused not once but several times in different interviews and media pieces. The Right Wing media would have back him up with their own untruths and the Right Wing supporters even knowing it was bullshit would have allowed it to sail past without a second glance.

    Now, as it is in the US, that’s not quite true anymore as shown by Abbott’s sudden plunge and scrutiny, especially over his two years of carbon price falsehoods and deceits.

    Turnbull’s fallacious statements on both the government’s the Coalition’s broadband polices were not overlooked this time and on several fronts he was challenged on what he stated, and he was found wanting and rightly lambasted for his failure to truthfully elucidate either policy. It was especially bad for Turnbull, as it had been for Abbott on the carbon price, because Turnbull not all that long ago had categorically stated the Coalition had a fleshed out costed broadband policy, yet because of only superficial scrutiny this was found out to be a lie, just as Abbott’s claims on his policies have inevitably turned out to be falsehoods.

    The media hasn’t gone anywhere near far enough yet to holding the post truth politics of the opposition and State Liberal governments to account, but it is happening, and as it does the large lead Obama now has in the important swing states in the US might have an equivalence here for the government and State Labor oppositions.

  125. Solar Is The Brightest Energy Option
    By Ben Eltham

    Tags: solar pv solar future shock energy electricity ben eltham
    Solar power may soon be the cheapest way to power your home – and the rapid growth of the industry is making other energy providers nervous. Ben Eltham on the solar revolution

    Few ordinary punters know who she is, but ……

    There are groups forming, to take those on who are against wind farms it the bush. They do no like the missing out on the money, these wind farms and I assume other forms of renewal energy brings to their towns. Do not blame them.

    I wonder how we survived all those wind mills that were close to our homes, pumping water from nearby dams. Maybe a little noisy, if not maintained, but no known illness.

    Then through the outback for decades, there have been home plants that depended on that little wind mill for power. Seemed to work vary well, wherever I seen it. My father relied on a diesel engine, which I am sure was more expensive and dirtier. .

    Manage to store electricity for the week in a number of car batteries. Believe this technology has advance in forty years,

    Have not heard those in the Northern Europe countries such as Finland raised any health concerns. Have relied on wind farms, in high density areas for decades.

    10% of world power production now comes from renewals.

  126. Some of the statistics from the Global Status Report underline the solar explosion. An amazing 47 per cent of all new electricity generation in the entire EU came from photovoltaics in 2011. Almost 30 gigawatts of solar energy was added to global energy supply last year, a 74 per cent increase. Between 2006 and 2011, the operating capacity of solar electricity globally increased by an average of 58 per cent a year.

    Global solar photovoltaic capacity is increasing exponentially. Source: REN 21 Global Status Report.

    el gordo, the facts just do not support your brain farts. We are no longer talking about was is going to happening, we are now talking about what is happening.

  127. The reason for solar’s explosion is clear: shrinking costs. In just one year, 2011, the price of solar PV modules fell by 42 per cent. No wonder Lins called last year a “very special year” for renewable energy.

    This plummeting cost base is transforming the energy industry, including in Australia. Although solar is still only a relatively small component of Australia’s energy mix, its growth is so rapid and its costs are shrinking so quickly that solar threatens to upend the entire structure of the Australian energy sector. That’s got a lot of people very excited. It’s got many established players in the energy industry very worried.

    I have found this to be true. I have been offered a deal that is so cheap, I might just go ahead. I have also been told by friends that it is not only cheaper. it is more efficient. That one more for less.

  128. WARNING

    Big energy is fighting back, however, lobbying for new regulations and industry protections. Given the vast lobbying power of the mining and fossil fuel industries, they have a good chance of succeeding. Now more than ever, the renewable industry’s best weapon will be ordinary voters.

    Be aware of the el gordo’s with their lies and misinformation.

  129. Saw on a Tweet, sorry no longer have the link, that in May for a time 50% of Germany’s total power consumption came from solar.

    Shit if Germany, a European country with way less sunlight than us can achieve that then why are we still stuck with coal and contemplating building more coal powered stations.

  130. Mobius, that power can easily be produced near where it is needed. It is the wires and poles that are now putting the cost up, they say, not so much production. Moving away from the necessity of a nation wide grid must lead to savings. I believe.

    This is not true of coal I believe, I remember as a small child, many small towns had their own power plants, that where replaced by power produced by mainly coal. They were connected to the grid.

    I fail to see why a town hundreds of kilometers from one another need the expense of being connected to a grid.

  131. Could the economy be moving forwarded, in spite of Abbott and his cohorts working hard to talk it down?

    Job vacancies rise in three months to August end, ABS says
    BY: RACHEL PANNETT From: Dow Jones Newswires September 27, 2012 1:05PM

    AUSTRALIAN job vacancies rose a seasonally-adjusted 4.2 per cent in the three months ended August, after falling by a downwardly-revised 5.4 per cent in the three months ended May, the Australian Bureau of Statistics said.

    Job vacancies were down by a seasonally-adjusted 4.4 per cent in the three months through August compared with a year earlier, the bureau said.


  132. Möbius, Germans are united in their belief that we are going through a climate change and they have reacted accordingly. In Australia every body is content on arguing. Hopeless.

  133. Germany, along with China is also a world leader in the innovative Chinese and Germans to be ahead and sad that so many in Australia are content to lag behind.

  134. El gordo, I read your link. It’s good to see that they are doing this as a way to reduce carbon emissions. Did you notice that?

  135. It may be that the answer to Greg Combet is that Tony Abbott has been listening to his former Parliamentary Secretary, Senator Cory Bernardi

    “Mr Abbott’s latest analogy has prompted Climate Change Minister Greg Combet to question whether the Opposition Leader has a problem with animals.

    “Previously he has described the carbon price as ‘another cash cow’, ‘a python squeeze’, ‘a cobra strike’, ‘a dog of a tax’, and today it was ‘an octopus’,” Mr Combet said.

    “What’s he got against animals?”

  136. Abbott and O’Farrell swanning at the Bulldogs do, and very noticeable Abbott flanked by two of his daughters, very carefully stage managed to look adoringly at dad as he stammered meaningless words to the reporter.

    And so the media’s and Abbott’s minders snow job on behalf of him starts.

  137. ‘…they are doing this as a way to reduce carbon emissions. Did you notice that?’

    Its lip service.

    ‘It is amazing how biased the international media is when it comes to reporting on energy generation, specifically electricity.

    ‘In mid-August, Germany opened a new 2200MW coal-fired power station near Cologne, and virtually not a word has been said about it. This dearth of reporting is even more surprising when one considers that Germany has said building new coal plants is necessary because electricity produced by wind and solar has turned out to be unaffordably expensive and unreliable.’

    Kelvin Kemm

  138. Why does he frown all the time now. and have that worried look on his face. At the same time, the PM appears to be relaxed and confident, performing on that world stage4, that Abbott so yearns for. By the way the Indonesian leader turned up to listen to her.

  139. ” Why does he frown all the time now. and have that worried look on his face.
    All those years of training under the Satanmarie method so he could take his rightful place……………… Australian Ambassador to Tuvalu……. Tones has got that sink’n feel’n…
    …….he is but a Whispering Eye. ……. (excuse my french 😉 )

  140. Opposition Leader Tony Abbott continues to attack the prime minister over her campaign to secure a place on the United Nations Security Council, saying it’s distorting Australia’s foreign policy priorities.

    Mr Abbott, who came under fire for saying Julia Gillard had been ‘swanning around in New York talking to Africans’ instead of focusing on border protection solutions with Indonesia, did not back down on Friday.

    He says there have been 100 Australian-bound asylum seeker boats in 100 days, and that the UN bid has seen the government’s foreign policies manipulated.

    ‘We’ve redirected our aid to places that aren’t really our prime concern, and here’s the prime minister spending four days in New York when she’s not prepared to spend four days in Jakarta on something which is absolutely vital for our national interest,’ he told the Nine Network on Friday.

    When shown a photo released by the PM’s office, which shows Ms Gillard sitting alongside and chatting with Indonesian president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, Mr Abbott responded: ‘We need more than a photo op, we need a strategy to stop the boats.’

    He said he would rather see Australia on the council than not, and brushed aside questioning over Fairfax reports that his attitude towards the bid could hamper the country’s chances.

    ‘If we can’t beat Luxembourg, there’s something wrong, frankly,’ he said….

    Maybe someone can tell me what the PM would have achieved by going to Indonesia or anywhere else ion the region, when all the leaders where in New York. Mr. Abbott has been asked, but up to now has not given any answer.

    Now we have 70 billion invested in Africa by our miners. I am sure they are happy for the PM to take an interest in that part of the world.

    Abbott’s actions and talk appear to be making less sense as time goes on. Is the word, unhinged.

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