Softly, softly comes Tony

We didn’t see much of Tony Abbott for a while.

After being savaged by Leigh Sales last week and Lisa Wilkinson not 24 hours later, Tony went into hiding and the media didn’t bother to seek him out.

Finally, after a very long period where the media treated Abbott as though he was sacrosanct, the poor diddums was asked some hard, critical questions.  He showed some massive cracks in response.

Let’s look at the preceding 24 months. His backflips, brain farts and childish Parliamentary behaviour have been hailed as brilliant political manoeuvres by the media. He has been their source of lots and lots of photo ops, great one-liners and nasty quips. To a certain extent Abbott had been ‘the news’, accompanied by numerous pics in lycra, hard hats and ‘small business’ photo opportunities. Every story in the media started with “Mr Abbott says . . .” or “The leader of the opposition says . . .”

For a week and a bit such praises slowly disappeared from the media landscape. After losing his wits Tony had lost his shine. He was on the cusp of becoming a joke so the obliging media left him alone.

But praise the good Lord he is back and the media again seek him out. Yesterday’s headline after the Prime Minister’s Gonski address was:

Tony Abbott has slammed Julia Gillard’s Gonski address yesterday as too vague and unworthy of a prime minister.

The Opposition Leader told reporters in Melbourne today that Ms Gillard was “more interested in striking a pose” than delivering education reform.

They say that a week is a long time in politics and the media obviously thought a week off would be long enough for Tony.

Let’s look at the next 12 months. His backflips, brain farts and childish Parliamentary behaviour will be hailed as brilliant political manoeuvres by the media. He will be their source of lots and lots of photo ops, great one-liners and nasty quips. To a certain extent Abbott will be ‘the news’, accompanied by numerous pics in lycra, hard hats and ‘small business’ photo opportunities. Every story in the media will start with “Mr Abbott says . . .” or “The leader of the opposition says . . .”

It started yesterday.

Softly, softly comes Tony. Gripping the coat-tails of the media.

Photo courtesy of nocarbontax.com.au

783 comments on “Softly, softly comes Tony

  1. if it looks like… a… devil/turd …
    talks like… a… devil/turd …
    walks like… a… devil/turd …
    acts like… a… devil/turd …
    then it is… a …devil/turd …
    the msm are also … turds/devils …

  2. I get the feeling he is only being let of the leash when his accomplices feel he can’t do too much damage with his foot and mouth disease. Even the most biased media must have a limit to the bullshit they can swallow and get away with printing. Somehow I think there will be a push to bin him soon as you can see the concern on the Fibs faces in Parliament. They don’t like him or trust him either.

  3. The cheek of him to call the PMs address vague and uninspiring. I have never seen her do anything that could be described that way. My guess is that is as likely he watched it, as that he read that BHP report. We all know he was too lazy and uninterested to do that. Wish we could afford to hire Clint to follow him around and support him.

  4. There is a possibility that this is the last Hurrah. With Tony out of the way for a while, the polls have shown a bit of a swing and his mates my just decide that now is the time to have a pre-election spill. I hope so. It would be for the good of Australia.

  5. Migs and,

    To a certain extent Abbott will be ‘the news’, accompanied by numerous pics in lycra, hard hats and ‘small business’ photo opportunities. Every story in the media will start with “Mr Abbott says . . .” or “The leader of the opposition says . . .”

    It started yesterday.

    Softly, softly comes Tony. Gripping the coat-tails of the media.

    I should imagine that the msm’s equation is:

    Tony + brain fart/stuff up = good for Gillard. Therefore this requires a concerted effort by the media to prop up their boy.

    Good for Gillard/bad for Tony even when it’s Tony who caused the good for Gillard moment..and they’ll call this balanced commentary. 😈

  6. Susan, there was some discussion about projection..how Abbott uses descriptions pertaining to himself to describe others. I think that vague and uninspiring might fit into this category.

  7. This guy is not a reformist a visionary, or remotely popular. This nut is cracked. Tony Abbott will never be primeminister because he is fake. He is simply not worthy or capable to govern for all Australians.

  8. Extreme weather events world wide, Can the Insurance Industry Survive Climate Change? The climate itself is now the Gillard government and the climate scientists greatest advocate in their struggle to implement policies to combat climate change and try to limit the warming to 2 degrees. Both the Government and the scientists are doing rather well in the polls considering the massive campaign to discredit both, led by the media and mining barons in Australia and other self interest empire’s like Koch Bros,Murdoch media etc, in America … coordinated right-wing campaign to turn the US public against Obama and the climate scientists ..

    8 May 2012 – Promoting integrity in the use of climate science in government … funded by the billionaire Koch brothers, are attacking Obama for his support on climate science ….. their efforts to discredit climate science. A coordinated right-wing campaign to turn the US public against renewable energy? . http://www.climatesciencewatch.org

  9. Well as this post is mostly focused upon Gillard’s response to the Gronski report it would be nice to see some defence of that from the usual suspects here. Frankly as I see it (keeping in mind that I do have children in public schools) Gillard has served us up with a big dose of smoke and mirrors and her plan requires acquiescent state governments to even get off the ground. The fact that the whole thing is not due to start until a year after the next election should also be ringing alarm bells to all who are complaining about Abbot being quite rightly sceptical about this stunt.

  10. Funny piece, Migs, great writing.

    Abbott, the big bag of media-produced helium, is like a balloon, just waiting to be burst.

    The most empty-headed leader of a “mainstream” party ever.

  11. Really, all these accusations about the PM’s speech being “vague and uninspiring” are just ridiculous, to anyone who bothered to listen to the speech anyway. Yes, the details of the spending are not there. And, it was explained by her why that is. It wasn’t a brain fart, it was a calculated measure that she said would be addressed in the coming months with the states.

    The broad aim of the plan is out there, and already, debate has arced up over the details. The Uni’s are already arguing their case against the entry level (and I think they have a point too). Unfortunately, most of the media have focussed on hte paying. It would be helpfull if they could focus on the parts that have been detailed, and worry about the other parts once they are in motion.

    It is interesting that, for something so ‘vague and uninspiring’, that there is already so much being debated over the details. The sad part is that so much more could be debated, instead of navel gazing over something that hasn’t been detailed yet. yes, there is a lot of detail to come, but, as it mentiones, the detail will be done once the parties have come to agreement. The point is, there is now a roadmap of what they can decide upon. The debate should just be beginning, yet some are arguing as if the debate has been had.

    There are some broad details here
    http://www.betterschools.gov.au/fact-sheets
    It is a good place to start, but, until the relevant parties come to agreement, the finer details are not going to be known. I for one am interested in how the new funding arrangement will be worked out. The Government has laid out the ideal they would like to use, the states and independent and Catholic schools have yet to be included in the finer details of how this will be achieved.

    Of course, we could have had a case where the Government said this is our plan, take it. But I can already see the huge front page headlines of ‘backflip’ etc for every detail modified to better suit a particular sector.

    I fond it interesting that, after the way the BER was slammed for how quickly it was implemented (the very reason for its existence interestingly enough), the same parties are now complaining that a huge and complicated reform is going to take so long.

    Well, the PM detailed WHY it will take so long. But no-one was listening. Their stories were written, and the headlines already printed. And tabot already had his three word slogan. The funny thing is, it relates more to him than to anyone else. I just wonder if our media will notice that?

  12. Funny that the new proposals do not start until the present arrangements run out. That is indeed funny.

    Funny that the present PM has since 2007 been busy laying the groundwork for the next steps to be taken.

    Funny that such a big overhaul need a lengthy transition period.

    Pity the PM cannot wave a magic wand and it overnight.

    Funny that the PM has stated her aims and is now setting out to negotiate with the states before releasing what the final finance deals will be.

    Funny indeed that this PM is following normal procedures when announcing new policy. It is normal to find the nuts and bolts in budget papers.

    It is indeed funny that the PM follows a prudent political path. That the PM is paint that all important, according to some, picture for us.

    What I find more funny, is an Opposition that shows no interest in our kids education, except to say the funding model is NOT broken, and to whine, where is the money coming from. Telling us the PM is a liar and is will not happen does not impress me.

    Yes, it will begin 2014. Yes by 2020, it will be fully in place. Yes, each year will see more introduced. Yes, it is a policy that funds the child, not the school.

    Yes, it is planning for the future.

    Funny that.

    Funny the PM tells the miners, they need to get behind this policy, as it is they who will gain the most.

    Yes, as usual, everything this PM does id funny.

    You know what I find funny. It is a man that answers every questions with the words “carbon tax” and “worse government getting worse” “she” “she lie” , then back to “great big carbon tax” Then we have the “MRRT” every now and again.

    That is what we have every day, no matter the questions otr what is occurring.

    Today we will have a rerun of that BHP announcement, regardless of that is what today’s announcement does not say.

    Fortescue has to tell the truth when making statements to shareholders and stock exchange. That is why there is no mention of carbon tax or MRRT. To blame them, would be a lie.

    It is the falling price of ore that is to blame.

  13. @Iain, I think I have found your problem. Comprehension! “Well as this post is mostly focused upon Gillard’s response to the Gronski report“. Except that, it ISN’T! It is focussed on Tony Abbott and his presence or absence in the media. The post uses two quotes from the MSM about Tony Abbott’s response to the PM’s announcement about the Gonski Report as illustration. The article IS about Tony Abbott, not about the PM or the Gonski Report.

    Dare I suggest that you are the classic case of why we, here in Australia, need to improve the educational standards? So that we don’t produce more Iains?

  14. By the way, I was interested in McFarlane’s answers this morning.

    One it is a levy. When asked what is the difference. One is permanent. A levy is temporary. I do believe we have had many around\d for years. What do we call that, what we pay towards Medicare. Is it not a levy.

    The second was answer was indeed more interesting. Big firms already pay their staff good benefits. They will no be paying much more for What I have been saying all along, the women that Abbott is targeting, already have access to good benefits when they go on maternity leave. tax.

    All that Abbott is doing, is transferring the cost of their excellent maternity leave benefits from industry to the tax payer. This is especially so, when they intend the levy to be only temporary.

    It will mean less for the lower income earner.

  15. Tom T, Pyne said that Gonski was too complicated. He added anyway there is nothing wrong with the present system.

    Of course he is not vague or lacking in details.

    He also said that the present system was needs directed. Yes, to the needs of the private system.

    What the PM is proposing, is based completely on the needs of each individual child.

    The PM has cut dead in the water, the long debate this country has been having since Menzies. That of funding private schools as well as the public system.

  16. HOST: You want Australia’s schools to be some of the world’s best. That’s a very honourable thought, but why aren’t they in this league now?

    PM: I think they’re not in that league now because there was a long period where there was neglect and under-investment under the former government.

    When we got elected in 2007, we started making changes to improve schools piece by piece.

    First of all, there’s MySchool, so we’ve all got more information about what’s going on in schools than we’ve ever had before.

    When I first became Education Minister no one could even tell you which were the thousand worst-performing schools in the country.

    Now you can get that on your smartphone if you want John, and have a good look.

    HOST: But why do we have a thousand poor performing schools?

    PM: Well I think there’s a few things, and some of them we’ve moved to address and now we need to do more. First and foremost, we’ve got to have a big focus on literacy and numeracy.

    It’s not acceptable that any child comes out of school not able to read and write.

    We have been focussed on that and we need to do more.

    We’ve got to have a big focus on the quality teaching.

    Nothing’s more important than the quality of the teacher in the classroom, and we’ve been working on that and now I want to do more by making sure we get the highest calibre people into teaching that they’ve got the skills they need to manage classrooms today.

    You don’t want one disruptive kid meaning that the whole class can’t learn, or you don’t want bullying or cyber-bullying to mean that kids are distressed and not able to participate in school and get a good education.

    HOST: You talk about improving the standard of teachers. One can only assume then that they are now substandard?

    PM: I think we haven’t valued our teachers the way we should. To be frank I think we’ve got to lift standards in terms of who goes into teaching.

    I would like the best and brightest in our nation to aspire to go into teaching.

    We’ve made a start on that with a program called Teach for Australia, which does get very high-performing graduates into teaching, but we need to make a system-wide change.

    Our teaching workforce is literally hundreds of thousands of people.

    I want it to be harder to get into teaching – you’ll need to be in the top class to go into teaching – and for the teachers who are in service now I want us to be focussing on lifting their skills, annual assessments.

    We assess kids, we should assess teachers too; and always be driving them to improve the way we ask our kids to always aim for improvement….

    http://www.betterschools.gov.au/news/pms-interview-john-laws-2sm

  17. John Laws

    HOST: You want Australia’s schools to be some of the world’s best. That’s a very honourable thought, but why aren’t they in this league now?

    PM: I think they’re not in that league now because there was a long period where there was neglect and under-investment under the former government.

    When we got elected in 2007, we started making changes to improve schools piece by piece.

    First of all, there’s MySchool, so we’ve all got more information about what’s going on in schools than we’ve ever had before.

    When I first became Education Minister no one could even tell you which were the thousand worst-performing schools in the country.

    Now you can get that on your smartphone if you want John, and have a good look.

    HOST: But why do we have a thousand poor performing schools?

    PM: Well I think there’s a few things, and some of them we’ve moved to address and now we need to do more. First and foremost, we’ve got to have a big focus on literacy and numeracy.

    It’s not acceptable that any child comes out of school not able to read and write.

    We have been focussed on that and we need to do more.

    We’ve got to have a big focus on the quality teaching.

    Nothing’s more important than the quality of the teacher in the classroom, and we’ve been working on that and now I want to do more by making sure we get the highest calibre people into teaching that they’ve got the skills they need to manage classrooms today.

    You don’t want one disruptive kid meaning that the whole class can’t learn, or you don’t want bullying or cyber-bullying to mean that kids are distressed and not able to participate in school and get a good education…
    http://www.betterschools.gov.au/news/pms-interview-john-laws-2sm

  18. LEIGH SALES: But you haven’t actually laid out a new funding system.

    JULIA GILLARD: Yes, I have, Leigh. I have laid out that in the future we believe schools should be funded on the base of need.

    We believe that every child’s education should be supported through a school resourcing standard, that is, the amount of money that we can show by pointing at what is happening in schools today.
    http://www.betterschools.gov.au/news/pms-interview-leigh-sales-abc-730-report-better-schools

  19. Tom R @ 8:17 am

    Really, all these accusations about the PM’s speech being “vague and uninspiring” are just ridiculous, to anyone who bothered to listen to the speech anyway. Yes, the details of the spending are not there. And, it was explained by her why that is. It wasn’t a brain fart, it was a calculated measure that she said would be addressed in the coming months with the states.

    Not only the details of the spending are absent but also no mention at all of how this will be paid for

    The broad aim of the plan is out there, and already, debate has arced up over the details. The Uni’s are already arguing their case against the entry level (and I think they have a point too). Unfortunately, most of the media have focussed on hte paying. It would be helpful if they could focus on the parts that have been detailed, and worry about the other parts once they are in motion.

    The point is that they will never be in motion because the opposition are more than likely going to be in power in 2014 so no matter what rhetoric Gillard and co put out there no one believes that it will happen. That you seem willing to assume that this scheme will get up strikes me as being a triumph of hope over reason.

    It is interesting that, for something so ‘vague and uninspiring’, that there is already so much being debated over the details. The sad part is that so much more could be debated, instead of navel gazing over something that hasn’t been detailed yet. yes, there is a lot of detail to come, but, as it mentions, the detail will be done once the parties have come to agreement. The point is, there is now a roadmap of what they can decide upon. The debate should just be beginning, yet some are arguing as if the debate has been had.

    Given there is an expectation that the states would stump up the cash and cede control of education in the process why should anyone expect that its got a snowflakes chance of being realised?

    There are some broad details here
    http://www.betterschools.gov.au/fact-sheets
    It is a good place to start, but, until the relevant parties come to agreement, the finer details are not going to be known. I for one am interested in how the new funding arrangement will be worked out. The Government has laid out the ideal they would like to use, the states and independent and Catholic schools have yet to be included in the finer details of how this will be achieved.

    How likely do you think that agreement is Tom? Can you give me some notion of how likely this is to succeed?

    Of course, we could have had a case where the Government said this is our plan, take it. But I can already see the huge front page headlines of ‘backflip’ etc for every detail modified to better suit a particular sector.

    Yet negotiation requires compromise…

    I fond it interesting that, after the way the BER was slammed for how quickly it was implemented (the very reason for its existence interestingly enough), the same parties are now complaining that a huge and complicated reform is going to take so long.

    Funny that you should say that because I agree that it was rushed and badly administered but that does not alter the fact that the Gonski plan is aspirational and not ever likely to be realised.

    Well, the PM detailed WHY it will take so long. But no-one was listening. Their stories were written, and the headlines already printed. And tabot already had his three word slogan. The funny thing is, it relates more to him than to anyone else. I just wonder if our media will notice that?

    Perhaps we should be questioning the underlying assumptions that spending more money and keeping young people in more education has to give us a better country as a result. frankly I have my doubts.
    Catching up @ 8:18 am

    Funny that the new proposals do not start until the present arrangements run out. That is indeed funny.

    not funny really, but sad that those in the education sector are being so cruelly misled by this PM

    Funny that the present PM has since 2007 been busy laying the groundwork for the next steps to be taken.

    What ground work would that be CU?

    Funny that such a big overhaul need a lengthy transition period.

    Sad that no one seems to question the necessity for this “reform” or the assumption that getting more and more people into higher education is beneficial to our society

    Pity the PM cannot wave a magic wand and it overnight.

    No we should be thankful for small mercies because Gillard’s record for making good calls when it comes to reform is nothing to write home about.

    Funny that the PM has stated her aims and is now setting out to negotiate with the states before releasing what the final finance deals will be.

    And the mostly conservative states are all going to ask her to:

    and the deal breaker will be that she just can’t do it.

    Funny indeed that this PM is following normal procedures when announcing new policy. It is normal to find the nuts and bolts in budget papers.

    That is just excuse making and you know it 🙄

    It is indeed funny that the PM follows a prudent political path. That the PM is paint that all important, according to some, picture for us.

    No the joke is that Gillard is trying to swing the public debate way from the areas where she has been eviscerated by the opposition (like Carbon tax and the boats) onto education which she feels is firmer ground.

    What I find more funny, is an Opposition that shows no interest in our kids education, except to say the funding model is NOT broken, and to whine, where is the money coming from. Telling us the PM is a liar and is will not happen does not impress me.

    Well as you are a fan of Gillard that is hardly surprising. However asking how something can be made to happen is an essential part of the political dialogue don’t you think?

    Yes, it will begin 2014. Yes by 2020, it will be fully in place. Yes, each year will see more introduced. Yes, it is a policy that funds the child, not the school.

    Yes, it is planning for the future.

    Yes and just maybe its another of Labor’s Rolls Royce solutions to Ford problems

    Funny that.

    Funny the PM tells the miners, they need to get behind this policy, as it is they who will gain the most.

    Yes, as usual, everything this PM does is funny.

    Its not just what she does its the pretence that this will actually happen that is most sadly funny

    You know what I find funny. It is a man that answers every questions with the words “carbon tax” and “worse government getting worse” “she” “she lie” , then back to “great big carbon tax” Then we have the “MRRT” every now and again.

    That is what we have every day, no matter the questions or what is occurring.

    Well the thing that must irk you is that no matter how upsetting you find Mr Abbott the fact is that he is more likely than not to be the next resident in the lodge

    Today we will have a rerun of that BHP announcement, regardless of that is what today’s announcement does not say.

    Fortescue has to tell the truth when making statements to shareholders and stock exchange. That is why there is no mention of carbon tax or MRRT. To blame them, would be a lie.

    It is the falling price of ore that is to blame.

    Did it happen as you expected CU?
    archiearchive FCD@ 8:22 am

    @Iain, I think I have found your problem. Comprehension! “Well as this post is mostly focused upon Gillard’s response to the Gronski report“. Except that, it ISN’T! It is focussed on Tony Abbott and his presence or absence in the media. The post uses two quotes from the MSM about Tony Abbott’s response to the PM’s announcement about the Gonski Report as illustration. The article IS about Tony Abbott, not about the PM or the Gonski Report.

    That is debatable because it clearly bounces off Abbot’s response to that very subject

    Dare I suggest that you are the classic case of why we, here in Australia, need to improve the educational standards? So that we don’t produce more Iains?

    Gee does the country need more independent thinkers who are good at problem solving? Who have a commitment to debating the issues with their political rivals rather than hunkering down amongst the like minded tribe? Hmm I happen to think that the answer is a very definite yes!!!

  20. …..But they’ll have to come up with a better policy if they want to combat the compelling narrative generated by the whole Gonski review process. Perhaps there are other policy options in any true-blue’s kitbag. The Opposition’s commitment to school autonomy can easily morph into charter schools, shortly about to be launched across the Tasman in New Zealand. The education card is a voucher by another name and targeted vouchers are a useful Trojan horse for bigger things to come. Tax rebates and/or tax deductibility can easily be extended to encompass portion or whole of school fees. And there is no end to headline announcements which characterize “school reform” in places such as England, where education policy has been portrayed by one writer as three announcements before breakfast.

    The problem with the policies in the conservative kit bag is that few of them really seem to work without worsening equity problems. By itself that shouldn’t stop them: the school reform bandwagon, regardless of who is holding the reins, is loaded with policy failures. Tax deductibility is regressive and will worsen our equity divides. Time and time again research shows insignificant differences between charter and other public schools. And we already have a de facto voucher system in the sense that money follows enrolments. The beneficial impacts of school autonomy are not significant while the downside equity risk has already been felt, even in Australia.

    And the Opposition has other problems. Conservatives in Australia are running out of bogey-men. The Government is gripped by timidity, evidenced by the Prime Minister’s fawn-fest before the Independent Schools Council of Australia conference a few weeks back. No dredging of her more radical statements from yesteryear seem to dent her image as a friend of private schools. In backing the Gonski recommendations the public school teacher unions have made themselves a very small target. Even the Greens fall well short of where public school advocates might like them to be.

    Continued over the page…..
    http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14072
    Yes, it is funny. The Opposition will have to come up with better,

  21. CU
    All that Abbot has to do is give it a red hot go to keep his commitment to the voters but the reality is that a very chastened Labor party is not going to be that hot to trot in continuing to support a scheme that will have been so soundly rejected by the electorate.

  22. ian said

    “it’s all too hard”

    No, the BER was not poorly administered, and yes, it was rushed. It was very well implemented according to all metrics, except ltdnews made up ones.

    Yes, it is a plan that extends past this Governments life, All of a sudden, long term plans for the future are a thing of the past. Unfortunately, the real world does not exist in election cycles. Some things (such as training of teachers) take longer than that. There is nothing stopping the opposition using this plan, if it is a viable and better plan than what exists now.

    Almost all commentators believe that, their only complain is that it isn’t happening NOW! How ridiculous. The libs spent a decade trashing our education system, and, apparently, Labor are at fault because they haven’t fixed it NOW! As the PM said, and as CU mentioned, the groundwork is already there, ready for this major change. Labor have been laying since they took control. And they have been doing it bit by bit, in order to avoid major alterations too quickly, which something like the education system is ill suited too.

    Your entire argument rests on ‘they can’t do it’

    Labors entire argument argument rests on ‘they can’.

    History is on their side

    BER, NDIS, ETS, GFC, NBN All successes all indicating that, if the Government says it will do it, it will do it. In the most negative, combative parliament this country has seen.

    Try and pick on the failings of what you can see, rather than what you cannot. Come next budget, then is the time to hammer them about the cost. You cannot argue against what is not there. Well, you can, but it is meaningless. Especially when the opposition get away again and again with ‘it’ll be there’

    Well, the Government have said that, and they have a track record of delivery

    tabot and his mob have only vagueness and black holes on their side.

  23. If the voters are that stupid, they will deserve what they get.

    My experience is that most care less about carbon tax, as most still believe in man made climate change and realise that something has to be done.

    They sat up and noticed when NDIS was announced,

    I am sure they will compare a worthwhile education system, before the carbon tax. Especially when Abbott is promising a more expensive and less effective model.

    It is becoming tedious to listen to Abbott and his carbon tax outpourings. His daily stunts are now bordering on the ridiculous. There is twelve more months to go.

    I sense that the so called target tax will hardly rate a mention when the election rolls around. The look we see daily on Abbott’s face each day, backs this belief. e does not have the look of a confident man.

    Now the doomsayers could be right, but I believe commonsense will raised it’s head, before the end game.

  24. Iain, until recently I worked in education at the national policy level. Inititiatives were fairly stagnant until November 2007.

    Education is more than just looking after kids at school. It also includes providing an education to make immigrants and disadvantaged Australians to make them job-ready or finding ways of increasing their employment prospects. This was overlooked by the Liberal Government.

    Their attitude was “If you can’t find a job, well that’s bad luck for you”. Under Gillard the attitude and ensuing action is “If you can’t find a job, well let’s look at ways of providing assistance”.

  25. Many of the comments on this blog reinforce Professor Peter Murphy’s theory on why the Left is losing the public debate. It’s short of bright people! http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2012/9/the-end-of-the-age-of-reform/page:printable

    “The Left still commands the institutions and the media of ideas. It still dominates the press and the universities. But it no longer commands the ideas of the age. Its idea-set is exhausted… It is true that in the universities the intellectual Right remains marginalised, but the Left commands only the institution. The wellspring of leftist ideas has dried up. Most of the great left-wing intellectuals of the last century, some of whom were truly great, are dead. Their younger intellectual successors are almost entirely third-rate. They speak in clichés”

    Some here speak in worse than clichés and ironically, to coin a phrase, softly softly comes a dose of reality for Gillard…http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2012/09/the-awu-scandal-things-ms-gillard-did-wrong.html
    “It beggars belief that we as a nation have accepted this conduct. That the nation’s media could
    interpret the lie “I did nothing wrong” as being a positive show of strength from the PM.

    It may be that this matter continues to elude prosecutorial authorities. But that does nothing to
    change the truth. The Prime Minister
    did something, very, very wrong”

  26. Ah Iain. You would-of course-know all about “smoke & mirrors”, given that this is all your side of politics has come up with so far. His “Direct Action” policy being a case in point. Just vague allusions to tree planting, soil sequestration & giving tax-payers money to polluters (sounds like corporate welfare to me). Show me a single Coalition policy, Iain, that has been properly costed & thought out-yet still they keep yelling that we need fresh elections ASAP.

  27. @ Treeman. Oh, that’s just classic projection on your part. Your mate Abbott isn’t smart enough to know if he’s read reports or not, Pyne is stymied by the simplest policy statements from the Labor Government, Hockey couldn’t count if his life depended on it, & that’s before we get started on imbeciles like Joyce, Tuckey & Heffernan. Yet you claim it’s *our* side that lack the bright people. Oh that’s just too hilarious. Oh & what a nice & pathetic attempt to dredge up the non-issue of more than 17 years ago. Your beloved Howard still has a major case to answer (IMO) over the assistance he gave to the workers at his brother’s textile mill-especially as regards to what happened to the workers entitlements & why this one business got so much more assistance than any other. Howard, Downer & Vale still have a case to answer (IMO) over the AWB corruption scandal-something about which they must have received warnings. As for Abbott-well there are several cases of assault-for which he was tried but not convicted. By your standards, then that means he did something very, very wrong-more so than Gillard!

  28. BTW, anyone who gets their “information” from that Right Wing rag-Quadrant-is more poorly informed than someone who gets their info from Faux News.

  29. Also, I find it so hilarious that the same people whinging about the “lack of detail” in Gillard’s speech on Monday are the very same people who’d be whinging about her “acting unilaterally” if she’d given more detail without first entering into negotiations with the States. Of course, had those economic geniuses-Howard & Costello-not gutted Federal Funding for Public Health & Education, or sold our gold reserve at the bottom of the market, or expanded Middle Class Welfare to unsustainable levels, then meeting the requirements of the Gonski report recommendations would be so much easier today!

  30. Treeman, you’ve missed the point. This is a post where we bag Abbott and the media’s kid gloves treatment of him. Surely you can think of something to contribute in that regards. 🙂

  31. Cu @8.18am..funny also is that we have Pyne declaring that class sizes make no difference to a child’s education while at the same time we have 400 schools in Victoria closed today, and among teachers’ demands are a reduction in class sizes. It can be guaranteed that teachers and students in public schools will receive no joy from any incoming Liberal government.

  32. Speaking of dredging up old issues, we once ran a topic where we dredged up a bit about Howard.

    The response?

    We were relentlessly attacked here and elsewhere for living in the past. 🙄

  33. Ask Finland, the number one nation in the world by a long way for eduction outcomes, if class size makes no difference.

    One of their main planks for achieving outcomes is to breakdown not only class sizes into smaller components but whole schools. Their policy is that no school should be bigger than the number of student names the principal can identify by heart in the first term.

  34. The Government are attacked for going back to the past (IR)
    Policy on the Run (BER)
    Living too far in the future (Education)

    Something about a rock and a hard place springs to mind 😉

    Even though, the case for each is made and the reasons for the timing given for each.

    Unfortunately, explaining this to opponents who refuse to acknowledge comprehension or nuance is a time waster. They just prefer to run with ‘it’s vague, duh, cos I don’t unnerstand’

    Pointless

  35. Treemans comments are spot on and the problem ( as typified by the responses here ) is that no one listens. The ALP has become ruled from within,unaccountable and totally inbred.
    You dont get a job unless you are a Union Junkie or MPs relative.
    Its been said so so many times Labor is just a Bad Brand. If it continues unchanged
    it will be a total dinosaur and extinct within a decade.Soon all State Gov and the
    Federal Gov will be Conservative.And – Thats Why ?

  36. The other good one Tom is the fallacious criticism of this government not undertaking any consultation. It’s one often leveled by business groups and the media, but when the history and records are made public they reveal a full consultation process had taken place.

    On the other hand Howard was infamous for not consulting in bringing in major policies and would often say it was for the government to make the decisions and he would take full responsibility for the outcomes, which of course he never ever did though he said it often enough.

    Abbot also has bought in (less than half baked) policy without consultation, even with his own party room. His non-consultative brain farts are now famous and have caused the Coalition into the situation of having to find over $50 billion in unfunded liabilities along with the $20 billion plus they have come out with.

  37. Poor old Treeman misses the point, no doubt deliberately. How the hell this post became about GILLARD when it’s titled “…Abbott”…”, well I guess you’d have to be a RWF to understand.

    Hey, troll, isn’t it time you came down from the trees and joined the rest of us with our feet on the ground?

  38. is that no one listens

    Sort of like the media not listening to Gillards speech the other day.

    The first question after it was where is the money, which the PM detailed would be shown once they have been to the states to nut it out.

    Almost every article written since asks the same bloody question. Don’t they listen?

  39. Voyager. The State governments are failing badly, in fact worse than the Labor ones they replaced. So looking at the polls, and it appears Victoria will be first, the Liberal State governments will be one or two term wonders.

    And in a little projection you call Labor dinosaurs when Abbott and the Coalition have proven time and again they live deeply rooted into the past with Abbott openly stating he wants us to regress to some mythical bygone prehistoric age.

  40. The media don’t want to listen to news that could be negative to the ALP cause. If only we had media that could report without a skewed slant to what’s good for Labor. Let’s face it, Labor is rotten to the core from the Prime Minister down. The sooner the Australian people vote, the better off the country will be. And don’t get me started on Katter, Windsor and Oakshott – pathetic and gutless.

  41. If this PM is not about putting Labor policies in place, I need to know what many believe what policies that the PM needs to be addressing.

    The PM has bought IR laws back to the centre. Not far enough in my opinion, but some improvement.

    Has moved to remove some of the handouts to the wealthy.

    Has moved to make education more efficient, removing many of the inequities.

    Has done much in health.

    Has bought in reforms and is putting in place infrastructure for the future. NBNco for starters.

    What does Mr. Abbott offer, besides his slogans and stunts.

    To demolish all the good work, Labor has managed since Mr. Howard was kicked put of government and seat.

    Policies that appear to be based back in the 1950’s.

    To retain a education system and funding that only they can see nothing wrong with.

    To replace and add to middle and upper income rebates and subsidiaries that began under Howard. To continue to transfer wealth from the bottom to the top, from the workers to employer.

    Where are the reforms and the dreams for the future, from Mr. Abbott.

    What has the PM done that is against Labor policies and belief. I believe the PM when she says, it is the Labor way.

    Why is Gina getting such a run. At least the public is getting a earful of what see is about. No tax. Low wages, on the African level. I assume that the tax payer picks up the bill for the infrastructure that she needs.

    Please, those who complain about our positive cliques when it comes to the PM, please tell us why Mr. Abbott will be better.

    Just one policy would not be bad for starters. His daily stunts, of slogand and three word sentences tell us nothing.

    Just talk about Abbott for once. You all must have many positive stories to tell. Please let us in on them.

  42. As to, no one is listening. I suggest you take the time to listen to the PM’s PC.

    Reporters are now asking questions, many questions. What’s more, the PM is giving full answers to everyone. The PM continues to take questions, until they run out. No three word slogans. No talking down to. No stunts. Just answering questions for as long as they come. Answering in a calm and sensible manner, with no name calling. Talking about what is important to most. Education, Health and Disability.

    Mr. Abbott’s name is rarely raised in these days.

    I suggest some get up with the times. There is a change underway, and Mr. Abbott and his mob are being left behind.

    Like Mr. Abbott, most of you are back in the past. The carnival has moved on. There is a new show underway.

  43. Abbott must be worried. Their bloggers are out in full force. Cory Bernardi must be busy. It is a long time since we have seen so many.

    I believe we have learnt a thing or two, since the last times they swamped the web.

    They are still flogging the sad, worn out messages. They are ignoring, at their peril, the runs this PM has on the board. Runs that the PM is proudly yelling from the roof tops.

    I am visiting my grand daughter’s school tomorrow night. I am sure I am going to enjoy sitting in a hall, instead of out in the cold. I am sure that other parents will also noticed how things have improved.

  44. The media don’t want to listen to news that could be negative to the ALP cause.

    No one who’s serious or in their right mind could make this ‘claim’. Begone, troll!

  45. Reporters are now asking questions, many questions. What’s more, the PM is giving full answers to everyone.

    In case we miss the questions, I’m sure they will be on the front page of the ‘lefty’ ‘Labor lovin’ papers. Sans answers 😉

  46. Curry, that is right, everyone is wrong and rotten, except for you.

    Swan now on. NPC might be interesting CSIRO. ABC 1

  47. The noise that Abbott has be

    The PM seems to be able to be heard above it.

    Swan, is now once again, giving us the facts on how good it has been for us, since Labor came to power.

    Still leading the world.

  48. I am sure this would be Abbott’s beliefs. I am sure he will back the lady all the way.

    Ms Rinehart has consistency and conviction, so much of it that there is no room for any awareness that it simply is not credible for the woman who is the richest person in the history of this nation to be pleading for others to take a pay cut for her benefit.

    That grating moment came when Ms Rinehart noted: “Business as usual will not do, not when West African competitors can offer our biggest customers an average capital cost for a tonne of iron ore that’s $100 under the price offered by an emerging producer in the Pilbara.

    “Furthermore, Africans want to work and its workers are willing to work for less than $2 per day. Such statistics make me worry for this country’s future.”

    This allowed Prime Ministe…

    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/gina-wants-us-to-wake-up-to-her-struggles/

  49. LOL Curry (or should that be Troll?) I’ve never known a government that has been so subjected to negative press as the current Gillard Government (well, maybe Whitlam). Nor have I ever known an Opposition to be treated with such kid gloves as the current, Abbott-led Opposition (& yes, I’m also referring to when Turnbull was Opposition Leader). So please spare us your fanciful ideas of the press being “Lefty” or “Labor Loving”, when the opposite is so clearly the case.

  50. “http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2012/09/which-party-wants-an-early-election.html”

    I suggest some of our visitors visit this site. This is reality.

    I am sure most will not.

    It backs up what I am saying, that Abbott’s time had run out. He is now becoming a loser. He has no more cards up his sleeve.

  51. Instead of making vacuous comments over tabots inability to listen to Press conferences, why not attack Labor over something atrocious they appear to be doing. This data retention plan is atrocious (if indeed they are planning to implement it) The recent comments from Roxon certainly look like they are going to

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-05/data-retention-plan-likened-to-gestapo-tactics/4243402

    Is it because the libs actually support this?

    I have enough issue with Google and the like (facebook) keeping reams of data on you, far more in fact than almost anybody is aware of. Even them apparently. But at least with them, you have the choice not to use them. This means that anyone who uses the internet has a record of their activity. And, considering anything in a database can be hacked, I have a real issue with that.

    I understand that law enforcement agencies want this, but, we really need to weigh up security against freedoms. This just goes too far against freedoms imo

  52. @Tom R

    but, we really need to weigh up security against freedoms. This just goes too far against freedoms imo

    i posted a link on another thread to a story about hackers gaining access to FBI database

    The group called AntiSec, linked to the hacking collective known as Anonymous, posted one million Apple user identifiers on Monday purported to be part of a larger group of 12 million obtained from an FBI laptop.

    In the posting, AntiSec said the original file “contained around 12,000,000 devices” and that “we decided a million would be enough to release”.

    The group said it “trimmed out other personal data as, full names, cell numbers, addresses, zipcodes, etc”.

  53. I am glad you have noticed our new policy at my ABC.
    There will be no more `cotton-wool` interviews for Mr-Rabbit with Chris-Toolman. From now to the election we will be setting the `cow` upon him, horns and all.

  54. Abbott was in hiding until he got some help from:

    1. his Deputy, Julie Bishop —–We will break the refugee convention and send all sri lankans back to sri lanka.

    2, his treasurer, Joe Hockey——-Barnaby Joyce is not speaking for the Coalition, the Nationals or the Liberals, the sale of cubbie station

    3. his banker, Gina Rinehardt——We want wages for miners like Africa, $2 per day, and a special taxation and investment zone in areas I own. The special investment zone backed by nationals, Nash and Joyce

  55. @Catching up. If you’re that far behind with the truth about what Gina said you’ll never get there!

    What Gina Rinehart said:

    “Business as usual will not do, not when West African competitors can offer our biggest customers an average capital cost for a tonne of iron ore that’s $100 under the price offered by an emerging producer in the Pilbara. Furthermore, Africans want to work and its workers are willing to work for less than $2 per day. Such statistics make me worry for this country’s future”

    What Labor parrot Malcolm Farr says she said:
    … it simply is not credible for the woman who is the richest person in the history of this nation to be pleading for others to take a pay cut for her benefit…. This allowed Prime Minister Julia Gillard to reply to Ms Rinehart without engaging in other matters raised by her video: “We are not going to have wage rates the same as the wage rates in Africa. We mine differently than in other countries.”

    The view of those up to speed and not needing to catch up:

    “Gillard, of course, is the bigger fool. In saying that, I assume both Gillard and Farr simply have comprehension problems”

    Could this be part of a growing cognitive disconnect from the Left?

  56. On,

    Furthermore, Africans want to work and its workers are willing to work for less than $2 per day. Such statistics make me worry for this country’s future”

    And for how many decades has Australia been competing with Asian nations who likewise pay their workers less than $2 per day…

  57. its workers are willing to work for less than $2 per day.

    I wonder if she is referring to the workers in South Africa, who actually appear to be quite unwilling.

    Or perhaps her definition of ‘willing’ is slightly more ‘liberal’ than mine

  58. I am not the stupid one here.

    The lady has been saying the same things for years. She learnt her lines at her father’s knees.

    We do not attempt to compete with low wage countries. We go for the higher end of the market.

    Those low age countries have existed for decades. Why have the miners stay here I am sure there are more than low wages in play. At least one does not need army and police protection here, and wondering who the next dictator who is going to be.

    If it is so good elsewhere, why has she not yet gone.

    We have been hearing the same arguments for years. Look around you, our employment figures are not bad. In fact, our economy is not bad at all.

    I know you believe that all on the left are stupid, but ou have to do much better than you have up to now.

    We do recognise bullshit when we see it. There is sure plenty coming from the other side.

    Still keep trying, you might just make a mistake, and give us something meaty, to reply to. I will not hold my breath waiting.

  59. I wonder what is like to live in a world, where you see everyone that does not agree with you as fools.

    t must be a very lonely world indeed.

  60. Rabbit, I wonder why Abbott’s arse does not appeal to women. Come to think of it, I suspect Gina’s ample body does not appeal to men, as well.

  61. Min, I think it might be $2 per week.

    I seem to have seen many funerals this week, where they have been willing to die for higher wages.

    As for nations poverty, out visitor once more blames the victims. Fairer trade laws and assistance will go a long way to help these countries. Many in the middle east are at this time putting their lives on the line for a better deal. They obviously believe things can be better.

  62. Hmmm, so I wonder if Treeman will “take one for the team”, by being the first to work for $2 per day. I bet he won’t. What he also seems to forget is that those Countries Reinhart mentioned are also incredibly unstable Kleptocracy, constantly on the verge of Civil War, & with rampant violent crime issues. That’s why none of the big mining giants are prepared to invest in Countries like that, in spite of what morons like Reinhart & Treeman would have us believe.

  63. What the buffoons like Gina and others of the right miss in comparing the wages and investment costs of the third world to ours is the incremental cost of military protection or military suppression of the workers..a not inconsequential cost! Also one that creates a certain insecurity of continuety when bribery of officialdom is taken into account along with the possibility of abduction/ransom alongside the inevitable terrorism attack….Sure, Gina…go and have a scratch around Nigeria…the “air” will do you and us both good!
    And Treeman…lose the “Walker Corp'” cap..it gives your game away!

  64. GDP per hour worked in the latest economic data rose 0.9% for the quarter making it 3.7% annually.

    Shit the productivity crisis in this country continues!

    No wonder the Right just make things up when this government keeps on producing good to great economic figures, many far better than Howard who was in power throughout the greatest economic growth period in global history.

    This government keeps on reminding them what a very lazy government Howard’s was and just how bad Abbott will be who was a part of that Howard government but without the guile of Howard or the nous of Costello. So they have to make things up and send out armies of zombie trolls sprouting utter nonsense, they haven’t got anything else.

  65. Hmmm, so I wonder if Treeman will “take one for the team”, by being the first to work for $2 per day. I bet he won’t.

    Nah, they would never work for that themselves, but just expect that it will be their neighbours and loved ones who end up having to take Third World pay and conditions under the Liberals’ SERFchoices.

  66. Just read this pearl of wisdom from ms rhineheart

    In her video released today she says: “And with state and federal debts, we must get realistic not just promote class warfare. Indeed, if we competed at the Olympic Games as sluggishly as we compete economically there would be an outcry.”

    Considering that, economically, compared with the rest of the world, we are leading the medal count, that is pretty lame.

  67. Tom, just the same old tactic..just keep reinforcing how badly off we are, so as to set the scene for “necessary” cost cutting measures.

  68. Cuppa, Gina lacks a sense of realism.

    Bit like Tom. :mrgreen:

    Go the Swannies.

    Who would have thunk that seven of my favourite teams are competing in the finals. 😉

  69. ABC 24 is sure giving Gina a dream run. Why? She has not said anything interesting or new for her. She has been saying that since she was a young girl. She learnt it at her father’s knee.

  70. This from a woman that has become the richest in the world, under an economy created in the last five years, by Labor governments.

  71. ABC 24 is sure giving Gina a dream run. Why?

    For the same reason they give Clive Palmer, the IPA and the Liberals copious amounts of gratuitous airtime/promotion/propaganda opportunities, I suppose. Cos it’s #TheirABC.

  72. Who would have thunk that seven of my favourite teams are competing in the finals.

    Alas, still backing the wrong ones 😉

  73. Tom, I didn’t like any of them until your mob made the finals.

    Now it’s go Hawks, go Cats, go ‘Pies, go Weagles, go Dockers, go Swannies and go the Roos.

  74. Tom R
    September 5, 2012 @ 9:51 am

    Iain said

    “it’s all too hard”

    No, the BER was not poorly administered, and yes, it was rushed. It was very well implemented according to all metrics, except ltdnews made up ones.

    Tom if even one metric says that it was not so good that makes your claim above wrong.

    Yes, it is a plan that extends past this Governments life, All of a sudden, long term plans for the future are a thing of the past. Unfortunately, the real world does not exist in election cycles. Some things (such as training of teachers) take longer than that. There is nothing stopping the opposition using this plan, if it is a viable and better plan than what exists now.

    No tom if a government has a credible chance of being re-elected then any long term plan that they posit has credibility but the Gillard government needs something akin to a miracle to retain office and as such Labor’s “long term” plan lacks credibility.

    Almost all commentators believe that, their only complain is that it isn’t happening NOW! How ridiculous.

    Yes I agree that expecting instant change is silly.

    The libs spent a decade trashing our education system, and, apparently, Labor are at fault because they haven’t fixed it NOW!

    Of course I disagree with you that having different education priorities is not the same as “trashing our education system” and in any event Labor have been in power for five long years and now in the sunset of their tenure they come up with a plan. well pardon me if I don’t think that its makes sliced bread obsolete.

    As the PM said, and as CU mentioned, the groundwork is already there, ready for this major change. Labor have been laying since they took control. And they have been doing it bit by bit, in order to avoid major alterations too quickly, which something like the education system is ill suited too.

    Is it really that broken Tom? Really truly broken? As a parent with children in public schools I tend to think not.

    Your entire argument rests on ‘they can’t do it’

    Labors entire argument argument rests on ‘they can’.

    History is on their side

    Yer dreamin Tom. If history shows us anything its the fact that Labor have a very poor record for delivering reforms taht actually do what their designers intend them to do

    BER, NDIS, ETS, GFC, NBN All successes all indicating that, if the Government says it will do it, it will do it. In the most negative, combative parliament this country has seen.

    The BER has had questionable benefits at best the NDIS is at this point in time entirely unrealised, the ETS is a political disaster for this government and it has trashed brand Labor in the eyes of the voters with out even the slimiest possibility of it doing anything for the climate, in fact news reports today inform us that they have abandoned the plan to shut down coal fired generation, The GFC Hmm its very debatable that the Rudd government spendathon was anything less than utter panic, As for the NBN its hugely over budget and behind schedule. Some sucess that you are seeing eh?

    Try and pick on the failings of what you can see, rather than what you cannot. Come next budget, then is the time to hammer them about the cost. You cannot argue against what is not there. Well, you can, but it is meaningless. Especially when the opposition get away again and again with ‘it’ll be there’

    Well I for one want to know if Labor will deliver that promised surplus or if we will be given excuses. I expect excuses

    Well, the Government have said that, and they have a track record of delivery

    tabot and his mob have only vagueness and black holes on their side.

    Given the fact that you are so wrong about the ALP “delivering” I’ll take what you say about the opposition with a very large grain of salt


    Catching up @ 10:00 am

    If the voters are that stupid, they will deserve what they get.

    😆 those grapes are sweet

    My experience is that most care less about carbon tax, as most still believe in man made climate change and realise that something has to be done.

    Even if you do believe in AGW its hared to see what Labor have created as being in anyway effective

    They sat up and noticed when NDIS was announced,

    I’ll admit that this sounds good but its just more pie in the sky stuff from Gillard intended to distract from the Carbon tax and the never ending boats

    I am sure they will compare a worthwhile education system, before the carbon tax. Especially when Abbott is promising a more expensive and less effective model.

    Those of us with children in school now have taken one look at what is proposed and the time scale proposed and we can’t help but be cynical. those without children care less

    It is becoming tedious to listen to Abbott and his carbon tax outpourings. His daily stunts are now bordering on the ridiculous. There is twelve more months to go.

    I think that you are saying that because You want the issue to just go away because its played well for Abbott and badly for Gillard.

    I sense that the so called target tax will hardly rate a mention when the election rolls around. The look we see daily on Abbott’s face each day, backs this belief. e does not have the look of a confident man.

    Well if the scuttle butt is right that election may be sooner than you think

    Now the doomsayers could be right, but I believe commonsense will raised it’s head, before the end game.

    Go the “doomsayers”!


    Miglo @ 10:01 am

    Iain, until recently I worked in education at the national policy level. Initiatives were fairly stagnant until November 2007.

    Is that really a bad thing?

    Education is more than just looking after kids at school. It also includes providing an education to make immigrants and disadvantaged Australians to make them job-ready or finding ways of increasing their employment prospects. This was overlooked by the Liberal Government.

    I know what you mean here but I am also less than enthused by the idea that government has all of the answers here

    Their attitude was “If you can’t find a job, well that’s bad luck for you”. Under Gillard the attitude and ensuing action is “If you can’t find a job, well let’s look at ways of providing assistance”.

    Don’t you believe in individuals taking responsibility for themselves?
    That said have you read this because it puts a rather different perspective on politics of “reform”.

  75. @Catching Up …Caught out.
    Tony Abbott is quite right to stay quiet while Gillard does an Irving!

    Labor rejects power compensation demands, axes plan to pay stations to close…
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-tax/labor-rejects-power-industry-compensation-demands/comments-fndttws1-1226465424126
    “THE credibility of Labor’s clean energy scheme is under attack from all sides following its decision to abandon a planned buyout of some of Australia’s dirtiest power stations.”

    Read some of the comments for a taste of reality:

    anthony of Brisbane Posted at 11:25 AM Today
    This government is in total disarray. Every policy is unravelling as the money runs out. Back flip after humiliating back flip, bridges burned and promises broken. It is getting ugly and the punters are getting very, very nervous as the spending continues unabated and the announcements need to be even more stupendous to give the impression that we are still moving forward.

    Keith of Werribee Posted at 11:38 AM Today
    “recent forecasts suggesting a lowering of energy demand” Who the hell are these forcasts from. Were we not told that with the heat expected with Global Warming that we would need more electricity to keep our air conditioners running. Can we believe anything this Government is saying. And the Greens want to drive us into caves. The sooner we have an election the better and we can rid this country of both Labor and the Greens.

    14th Man of Gold Coast Posted at 12:14 PM Today
    Oh dear. Gillards CO2 Web is unravelling at a rapid rate isn’t it? First, we get to hitch our carbon wagon to the derelict and inoperable EU ecomony, now the dirty little electricity nemeses of Labor and The Greens get to carry on as they always have, leaving Julia’s Green Energy Future in tatters. What’s next is anyone’s guess, but I bet it lines up with the wonderful results of the BER and Pink Batts schemes in funnelling taxpayer and borrowed funds directly down the toilet. The time of this ‘new paradigm’ of a Federal Parliament has come to an end. Election now !

    Still catching up?

  76. Oh for fuck sake posting comments now. I could flood this and other blogs with comments against Abbott and the Coalitions nonsense policies and costings.

    That’s unbelievable desperation and a sign of someone who has absolutely nothing, just like his beloved leader.

  77. lol ME – and comments from The Australian, Ltd News’ flagship propaganda mouthpiece, at that! The troll obviously has NFI 😆

  78. NFI sums it up for me. That’s a first in my long years of blogging, using anonymous comments from a right wing piece, and selective ones at that, as proof.

    I don’t give a toss what it’s against or who that is about as legitimate as newspaper or TV phone in polls, probably worse.

    There is a point to attack this government over its decision to abandon its buyout of the coal stations, something the opposition has also done, but using comments from right wing zombie trolls, please spare me.

  79. Yes, it is broken, All say so, exceptfor Pyne and Abbott.

    The PM has been putting forwarded her dreams for education. Much has been done. The PM asked Gonski to do research in what is the best way to proceded. Does not appear to be last minute action to me. It sounds more like policy that has been worked towards for the last five years.

    The visitor is wrong, Labor has a good history of delivering reform, often under extreme difficulties.

    It never stopped Whitlam which delivered much, followed by Hawke and Keating.

    Both Rudd and Gillard have already delivered much.

    I know that the Opposition are busy trying to put aboard the proposition that Labor has done nothing. The problem is, it is not true.

    Be careful toss grapes do not give you a bellyache, as I believe they will. Time will prove who is correct.

    The surplus will be delivered, in spite of the fact, it would be better if it was not.

    I am damn sure Direct Action is any better.

    As for NDIS and the Dental scheme. Is it any more unattainable that Medicare was seen to be.

    The carbon tax is fast fading from the public’s glaze. Abbott is flogging a dead horse.

    “Is that really a bad thing?”

    If you cannot see this as bad and reckless, one indeed has to feel sorry for you,.

    Why take so much time cut and pasting what we have written. I like it, as it might mean more read what I have said. Surely just answers, as most do here, will do. One has to read through a lot, to get to your comments.

    We are not children that need reminding of what we have written.

    Your last reply was the greatest waste of time, you have yet put up.

    What you have written has been discredited, time and time again. In fact it is misinformation and straightout lies.

  80. What happens with these dirty power stations now? Do they slowly go broke and end up getting nothing because they were too greedy in their negotiations at this time?

  81. Oh bugger, Labor ain’t buying the power stations. So this news will really be terrible (for the trolls and abbott):

    The operators of two coal-fired power stations in South Australia will consider a switch to solar thermal electricity generation following a move by the federal government to abandon plans to pay some power stations to close down.

    Alinta Energy owns and operates the 240 megawatt Playford Power Station and the 540mw Northern Northern Power Station at Port Augusta

    Alinta Energy respects the federal government’s decision to not proceed with the contract for closure program; clearly the views on commercial asset value were out of alignment,’’ the company said in a statement on Wednesday.

    ‘‘In light of today’s announcement, Alinta Energy is considering the implications for the Flinders assets in SA and the potential for investment in solar thermal power.’’

    In the short term, Alinta said the Northern Power Station would continue to operate during the coming summer with the Playford station remaining available subject to market conditions.

    Solar thermal has the potential to provide base load electricity by using large solar collectors to generate heat which is then used to drive turbines.

    Port Augusta city officials have previously backed plans for a shift to the new technology.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/environment/alinta-considers-thermal-solar-plants-for-sa-20120905-25efn.html#ixzz25a7yFCMy

  82. And as they lose more money Bacchus they will demand greater subsidies from the governments, and an Abbott government and Liberal State ones will have no hesitation of throwing billions at them whilst they close down schools, hospitals, services and allow infrastructure to crumble.

  83. Tony Abbott opposed to using facts in economic debates

    “The Private Member’s Motion recognised the strength of the Australian economy and called upon all Members to approach economic debates with facts rather than fear.

    Tony Abbott and the opposition voted against the motion.”

    This doesn’t surprise any one of us here, even his supporters. To have Abbott support facts would be to see him collapse in a gibbering heap that would be devastatingly embarrassing for them.

  84. A few more facts and a good read:

    “The final economic scorecard for 2011-12 shows it was a pretty good year for the workers and a rather poor year for much of the commentariat – not that either party would want to admit it.

    The final score of 0.8 per cent trend GDP growth in the June quarter making 3.8 per cent for the year was a little better than the Reserve Bank and Treasury had predicted – and they were both criticised as being too optimistic by the much the same pet shop denizens who continue to declare we’ll all be ruined any minute now.

    When it comes to credibility, the numbers continue to show the RBA and Treasury are OK, the Greek chorus not much chop at all.

    This July Alan Kohler, publisher of a rival website, declared he was living through his first Depression and as for the rest of the Murdoch press – well, why bother when the Australian’s front page lead story yesterday suggested an entirely reasonable set of monthly retail sales figures meant the economy was in tatters. Oh, please.”

    But GDP per hour worked grew by a respectable 0.9 per cent in three quarters out of four, showing a rise of 3.5 per cent for the year.

    Gross value per hour worked in the market sector improved by 3.7 per cent, while non-farm real unit labour costs were up by 2.3 per cent. Yes, the workers were being paid more, but they also were being more productive.”

    Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/business/the-economy/the-growth-economy–one-for-the-workers-20120905-25dv6.html#ixzz25aQwgKkZ

    Did you see that last line………”workers were being paid more BUT BUT BUT they were also being more productive.”

    Abetz, did ya read that!!!!!!!

  85. What has happened in not a back-flip or back down.

    What has sharpened is a couple of very dirty and old power stations have opted out of the government offer. They have always had the option to do this.

    They have chosen to go with paying the price on carbon emission, that it was claimed would wipe out all industry. maybe they can explain to the shareholders down the track, why they are paying this money out.

    They have obviously swallowed Abbott’s spiel that they will not have to pay. Maybe that is true, but no certainty for a number of years.

    It is to the governments credit, that they did not allow themselves to be blackmailed into making outrageous payments.

    The company was offered assistance in getting out. It is on it’s own now.

    Maybe the company is interested in that technology that does not yet exist, but Abbott pushes to capture emissions.

    I would not begin crowing too early.

    If the brown coal power houses continue in there present mode, it will be our children and their children that pays the price. That would not worry many of out visitors. All they care about is winning. There are no winners in this one. It is lose lose situation.

    Bacchus, you could be right. It was either accept government assistance to ease out, or face the possibility o being forced out by the price on carbon emission.

    Whether Abbott wins or not, a similar carbon pricing is inevitable. Most industry knows this. The difference is the long we wait, the more expensive it will be.

  86. It is no more a back-flip, than leaving out the set price. It was said in the beginning that negotiations would be made to join other carbon markets. That occurred quicker that planned for. Not back-flip, but getting to the next planned stage quicker.

    Government can only work with industry to make it easier for them. It is their problem if they reject the assistance.

  87. “Abandon plans to pay some power stations to close down”

    From my reading, the government did not abandon their plans. The company rejected the offer. The alternative is to let the price on carbon emission do it’s work.

  88. We also have Hockey out there once again rubbing his hands with glee, running down the economy.

    Former Treasury boss Ken Henry has delivered a strong defence of foreign investment in Australia, arguing the current public debate has been “frequently misinformed” and skewed by “populist instincts”.

    Dr Henry says Australia has benefited from several waves of foreign investment over hundreds of years; first from Europe, then from the United States and more recently from Asia.

    “Every wave in our history has been controversial for a period of time,” Dr Henry told a forum in Canberra.

    “It is perhaps inevitable that people would be concerned about Chinese investment, especially because it’s occurred so recently and because it’s grown so rapidly.”

    The most recent debate about foreign investment has been sparked by the proposed sale of Australia’s largest cotton farm to a consortium of Chinese and Japanese investor

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-05/ex-treasury-boss-defends-foreign-investment/4244792

    That plus the good figures, showing that we have now had 21 good years. Figures still showing a good economy.

  89. Seriously, it’s time for Abbott to be replaced…he’s not at all popular so why are the Liberals trying to win with him as their leader? Leigh Sales & Lisa Wilkinson showed him up for the fool he is…it’s about time the media toughen up and stopped making him out to be some kind of hero.- he is full of lies and scams! btw – everyone’s talking about his marriage break up…true?

  90. Me thinks ‘Catching Up’ has never and will never Catch Up. Obviously however
    has real potential as a Labor Politician. Always too much to say and nothing
    worthwhile. 2 Big backflips on The Carbon Tax in 2 weeks = a loss of 2%+
    in the polls for Labor. Give me an Election and give it to Australians now!
    Not the way to run a Country.
    Everyone espousing the wonderful position we are in – yes thanks to Qld and WA
    Mining. Succeed and be rewarded with a ‘Punative anti-success Tax’ thats not
    Smart thats Stupid. Dont worry Catching Up you are so far behind you could
    not run fast enough to catch the broken down Labor Bus.

  91. What is it with uneducated morons starting every second word with a capital letter, and why do they always seem to be Liberal dupes?

  92. Sue at 7.44pm,

    Those productivity figures must be same ones ME referred to earlier today.

    Joe Hockey is probably still staring at those numbers and wondering what they mean.

    Last night he was telling Leigh Sales he was going to raise productivity by somehow forcing the long term unemployed to find work:

    ” Well, the way to do it is to try and grow the pie. We have a six point productivity plan that focuses on growing the pie; the Labor Party focuses on
    redistributing the pie.

    And if you actually grow the pie by having productivity measures in place such as getting welfare to work back in place

    Hockey doesn’t seem to understand that increasing the number of employed people has very little to do with productivity as economists define it. And if it came about as a result of welfare-to-work programmes it would almost certainly result in a drop in productivity, at least until those new workers picked up their skills to match their co-workers.

    I’ve heard Abbott make the same mistake in relation to single mums.

    Growing the pie is a worthy goal (given environmental constraints) but if it comes about by simply increasing the employed rate, productivity remains unchanged.

    And growing the pie is certainly something the current government has been doing, in sharp contrast to almost every other developed country.

    But Hockey’s welfare-to-work ambitions are hypocritical and hollow.

    Conservative politics subscribes to the notion of a “natural rate of unemployment” as an article of faith. It is embodied in an offensively named doctrine called the Non Accelerating Inflation Rate of Unemployment (the NAIRU). Glen Stevens says it is currently about 5%.

    Translated, that means that Hockey knows that if unemployment fell below 5% he’d have to deal with rising inflation and the RBA reacting with interest rate rises.

    So Hockey needs a successful welfare-to-work programme like a hole in the head.

    That wouldn’t happen of course, but it’s a core belief of the neo-liberal economics that Hockey has been learning. And doing rather badly even at that it seems.

    Hockey’s side of politics is quite comfortable with a headline rate of unemployment of 5% because it is supposed to keep a lid on inflation, and keeps the workforce disciplined.

    So why does he even mention it as policy ?

    Answer: It keeps the myth of the welfare bludger/dole cheat alive in the imagination of the bogan electorate, and identifies an “enemy”.

    Short of a Leni Riefenstahl docco featuring hordes of plague rats snatching at dole cheques, be prepared for further developments in this area of Coalition policy.

  93. Government willing to continue with assistance. Company wants more money. How is that a back down. Would you have them pay the excessive money the company demanded.

    If the company continues to have high emissions, they will have to pay.

    As for the other matter, that was the final intention, that comes into play a little earlier than planned. A move that industry was pushed and was fully supported by industry.

    What is wrong today, that decisions cannot be changed, especially when it leads to a better outcome.

    If that is a bad thing, it is a new one on me.

  94. Voyager, I can find little to reply to in your rant., There must be a point that you are trying to get across. Sorry, I cannot find it.

  95. “Voyager, I can find little to reply to in your rant., There must be a point that you are trying to get across. Sorry, I cannot find it.”…….. congrats CU on being targeted by the Trolls, a hearty well done 😀 …. guess they are having trouble with your ‘reasoned’ argument(s)…. go figure 😆

  96. “If the company continues to have high emissions, they will have to pay.”

    On the early TV news this morning it is going to cost the coal companies an extra billion dollars in carbon pricing by staying with coal instead of moving over to gas and other efficiencies. That is cost that will be passed onto the consumer of course.

    It tells me the owners of these companies are after quick profits instead of strategic outcome.

    “What is wrong today, that decisions cannot be changed, especially when it leads to a better outcome.”

    Let’s not forget Howard nearly always made significant changes to his policies after he bought them in, but in his case because he royally stuffed up in the first instance in formulating them. None more so than WorkChoices, which had a major rewrite only two weeks after being introduced and then of course the now infamous massive backflip in bringing in safety nets that Howard insisted were not needed when he introduced WorkChoices.

    I know that is a look over there at the Liberals, which is what the Right wingers do all the time, but in this case it’s valid as major policies are changed all the time after they are introduced and also constantly tweaked in reaction to outcomes, feedback or the finding of loopholes/errors.

    To use this as an attack against this government is to say that the Liberals should also be attacked every time, and Abbott especially should be as he’s changed tact and policy so many times from opposition and from when he was in government it’s now impossible to keep up. His own party can’t keep up with his backflips, side steps and prevarications anymore.

  97. Well said and explained MJ.

    I’m always impressed by the way you can simplify complex matters into easy to understand chunks. Of course you can never elucidate the full complexity of finance and economy without taking up tomes and spending long keyboard hours explaining it, but the short lucid pieces you post go a long to explaining these complex matters.

    Thanks.

  98. No Voyager, as usual you get it horrible wrong in an almost unintelligible and meaningless rant.

    They went back in one poll, not polls. They gained one point in two others, all of the polls within the margin of error.

    And if you are going to play the poll game then why don’t you mention how badly Abbott is doing and has been consistently doing?

  99. Sue many landowners build up their properties for that one purpose, to sell it to anyone who will pay the price.

    There are two groups in this country who historically and on balance do better under Labor governments, both State and Federal, yet steadfastly vote Liberals and/or Nationals, pensioners and rural.

    It’s almost the same mentality as Joe Bageant’s “Deer Hunting with Jesus”.

  100. It’s almost the same mentality as Joe Bageant’s “Deer Hunting with Jesus”.

    Thanks ME. You always provide meaty google bait 😉

    Listening to that, there are many similarities to be drawn between the US and Australia politically right now. Although, when he mention the ‘faceless’ aspect of corporations, I thought that the best weapon that has been handed the Government is the clives, gina’s and twiggy’s of the current landscape. Or biggest ‘corporations’ have a face, and they are not shy of showing it. But, every time they do, they seem to lend weight to the Governments position.

  101. “It’s almost the same mentality as Joe Bageant’s “Deer Hunting with Jesus”.”

    This aspect of human nature has always fascinated me ME: what makes Joe Bageant’s busted-arse rellies, working for slave-labour rates with no benefits pledge undying (or in their case, dying) loyalty to conservative politics ?

    And similarly for those 2 groups in this country you mentioned, although the comparisons with Bageant’s counterparts are less dramatic. It must be a modern phenomena as “the bush” used to vote solid Labor.

    The loyalty of a large chunk of the wealthy to the conservative cause is totally understandable. It’s roots lie in a ruthless dedication to self-interest. Not pretty, but in a callous way, logical.

    But the loyalty of what we call the “Howard battlers” to conservative politics is weird. It is decidedly not in their best interests, so why do they do it ?

    Thanks for the you-tube link Tom, will watch when I send this. I think Bageant died recently,so no more words of wisdom from that quarter.

    And thanks for the kind words ME. I try to do my best for “the cause”.

  102. On the the Gina statement, there was this reply by Gillard

    “It’s not the Australian way to toss people two dollars – to toss them a $2 gold coin and ask them to work for a day,” Ms Gillard said.

    “We support proper Australian wages and decent working conditions for Australian people.”
    http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/14766716/pm-continues-crusade-on-education/http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/14766716/pm-continues-crusade-on-education/

    And TomR the “face” that Gina has presented to the Australian public its hard to believe she would actually open her purse to “toss” that $2 coin.

  103. Hey, Tom

    Thanks for digging up that you-tube of Joe Bageant. Really great !

    It’s probably only the 3rd or 4th y/t I’ve ever watched. Must do it some more.

    I tend to be a reader rather than a watcher, but seeing Bageant in the flesh and actually speaking his stuff adds yet another dimension to his writing that no amount of written word can create.

  104. Little anecdote on a practical example I saw on TV of the US “Deer Hunting with Jesus” ingrained mentality. It’s almost, and many would say is, a brain washing.

    At the height of the second Gulf war under W Bush and the start of the collapse of the US economy even before the GFC took hold, with major factories and SMEs shutting down everywhere, many moving offshore under policies fermented by the Bush administration to help their wealthy donors and lobbyists, they interviewed a man walking away from a closing factory he had worked at all his life since his late teens and he was now around 50.

    The bloke seemed to be of below average intelligence and when they asked if he was mad at this administration as it was they who caused his factory to be closed he responded with, “hell no!”.

    His explanation was that W Bush had done everything possible to save the factory and was forced into making the economic (as we now know bad) decisions because he HAD TO GO to war with Saddam to protect God given America from the terrorist attacks of Saddam Hussein. Anyway it was all Clinton’s fault because he did such a terrible job when he was POTUS he destroyed the nation and W Bush will take many years more to fix it up good.

    A lot more with constant references to God and Christianity, but this bloke was deeply sincere and as the report concluded with was the attitude of just about all the workers who lost jobs because of closing businesses and industries across America.

    It like the Right wingers here, no matter how much evidence you shove in front of them, no matter what the facts and empirical data, and no matter how idiotic, deceptive and disingenuous Abbott is revealed to be, they will always discombobulate that into Abbott being honest and a hero and Gillard being terrible.

  105. As a further illustration of the brain washing that went on in America during the lead up to the invasion of Iraq.

    I’m going from memory but the stats were around 80% of Americans believed they were invading Iraq as revenge for the November 11 terrorist attacks on the US, even though Saddam had nothing to do with them.

    60% of US troops going to Iraq at the time believed they were doing so to get the person behind the 9/11 attacks. By the way in a survey of Australian troops, not a single one believed they were going to Iraq to get the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks.

    In a wide ranging street interview with random people across the US, where a picture of Bin Laden was shown and another of Hussein, I think every single person identified Hussein as the perpetrator of the 9/11 attacks and nearly every one didn’t know who the photo of Bin Laden was.

    This is the same mentality that supports the conservatives who are screwing them to wall and taking everything from them in blood, sweat and tears. The US army of working poor.

    The same thing Howard wanted to bring in here, and was heading that way until rightly turfed out. It’s what Rhinehart, Forrest, Palmer etc. want.

  106. If it is so good elsewhere, why has she not yet gone.

    Well, she’d have to cough up a considerable sum to keep the corrupt officials on side and in unstable countries, she’d run the risk of having her assets seized by the local dictator.

    As for cutting workers’ wages, I suggest she stop milking the company. That should more than pay the wages at full tote odds.

    And I just love her lecturing the badly paid about their spending habits. Not bad for someone who never lifted a finger for her start in life. I think a dose of working at KFC or some other low paid job would be good therapy for her.

    BTW, isn’t it nice to see the Trolls taking the family brain cell out for the evening? I think its name is Jimbob. Its big brother, Bubba died in a tragic thinking accident. We should all take a lesson from his demise.

    The Joe Hockey self help slim volume “Joe’s Guide to Black Holes. was plainly too much for poor old Bubba to swallow and he burst his cell membrane.

    He’s been sadly missed by the Liars Party. Another one of their intellectual giants bites the dust.

  107. “I think a dose of working at KFC or some other low paid job would be good therapy for her.”

    Gosh Jane…I think that’s where her, ahem, “problem” could’ve started, KFC that is.

    Does anyone remember the family dinner scene in “The Loved One” (the movie of Evelyn Waugh’s 50’s novel on the American funeral business).

    If they do a remake Gina could play Mr Joyboy’s mom.

  108. Paul
    I got used to more frequent posting is all and its just sad teht the wind has gone out of Migs’ sails is all.

    Jaycee
    I didn’t know you were a Trot! they really are some of the most whiny commos going 😉

  109. Hahaha. Had that copied to the clipboard ready to paste Sue.

    Priceless. Abbott is all at sea at the moment because he’s not being allowed to stick to his small quiver of three word arrows and is being asked questions outside his slogans.

    So he’s now taken to asking himself the question and answering it.

    lol.

  110. Mobius Ecko
    I didn’t see the question and answer so I cannot guarantee that he answered the actual question and not give his usual : It’s a baaaaaaad tax by a baaaaaad govt.

    On the today show, I wonder what the odds are that Abbott is interviewed by Karl from now on?

  111. Mobius Ecko
    it has just been suggested to me that Abbott might ask the Today show to employ Chris Uhlmann for the Friday political questions.

  112. The negative body language, sitting there almost rigid and not moving for the entire interview, all spoke uncomfortable facing an assertive female, again.

    I guess his PR team thought that it would be good to have another interview with someone who so badly showed him up for the phony he is, and they probably rehearsed him to behave and answer in certain way. But we are dealing with Abbott here, and Abbott is so one dimensional, extremely narrow minded and defocused that he becomes this wooden caricature whenever taken outside his miniscule mindset.

  113. Malcolm Fraser Paul????

    What do you expect from a man who has spent the last twenty years trying to atone to the left for the dismissal of the Whitlam Government.

    That is weak. even for you!
    😆

  114. If anything, I think Fraser isn’t a half decent person these days.

    Iain, your suggestion was weak. Even for you. 🙂

  115. I rather admire Fraser for his recent voice as a champion for Aboriginal Australians and under-privileged societies.

    It’s no wonder his deserted the Liberal Party. They deserted humanity.

  116. Iain, it might surprise you but some people do have obligations outside of blogs..you know, family, friends..that sort of thing. 🙄

  117. Iain, I’ve been without Internet connection, hence no new posts. When I’m back on board later tonight I’m thinking of putting up a post with a topic that is very popular here with the majority: Tony Abbott and the media. 🙂

  118. The trouble with Frazer is the same as it is with all of the other “open door” asylum seeker advocates, namely where is the line to be drawn and how do we balance compassion with the need of our own citizens to feel secure within our own borders?

  119. The thing which strikes me about Fraser is how much of a leftie he’s become. Or has he? A thought: perhaps due to the fact that the Liberal Party has become only slightly left of Attila the Hun, that Fraser looks a leftie in comparison.

    Since when did humanitarian issues become the prerogative of the left only, surely there are Liberals equally as concerned..sadly not reflected in the people who they choose to represent them at present.

  120. I feel your pain on your lack of internet Migs that happened to me the other week and you very quickly feel like Robinson Crusoe alone on this tiny Island and separated from all Humanity! 😦
    That said did you get a chance to read that Quadrant essay that I Linked to the other day ? It would be very interesting hear what you thought about that argument as a post here in Latte land 🙂

  121. Migs

    Iain, you sound somewhat xenophobic.

    No I love people of different cultures but I think (like a lot of conservatives do) that we have to put our own citizens first .

  122. Apt post Migs. Been enjoying the posts on here. Well done.

    Abbott is on the downward spiral.

    He’s Rick Perry of Texas…during the debates.

    This fella wilts under REAL pressure.

    I vote we keep him as Lib leader…the gift that keeps on giving.

    N’

  123. Nas, as much as I enjoy my daily dose of Abbottisms and agree that he’s a gift for Labor, one must wonder how he manages to keep his job.

    I suspect that his party will eventually storm the Abbott Bastille.

  124. Iain, and the need(s) of our own citizens to feel secure within our own borders.

    The next time that Camberwell, or Macquarie Park, or Ridgehaven or St Lucia are threatened by marauding invaders threatening to rape our GT Falcons, to pillage our flat screens and to drink our beer..then I’ll start to worry.

  125. You know Iain, was looking at your site, it seems to me that you copy and paste a lot from articles for you blog’s, Do you not have an original thought in you mind.

    Iain so was mine. 😆 😆

  126. “The trouble with Frazer is the same as it is with all of the other “open door” asylum seeker advocates, namely where is the line to be drawn and how do we balance compassion with the need of our own citizens to feel secure within our own borders?”

    You really think desperate people on rickety boats make people feel insecure? I call bullshit on that line of argument? Look where the boats are usually picked up by ARMED NAVY BOATS!!

  127. Paul
    I try to post something everyday and sometimes its a longer piece and other times I find something of interest and just make an observation on it. in each instance if I do cite the words of others it is always correctly acknowledged and cited. Looking at most political blogs and you will find the same sort of thing. Some news Bon Mott and a reaction to it.
    KitKat

    You really think desperate people on rickety boats make people feel insecure? I call bullshit on that line of argument? Look where the boats are usually picked up by ARMED NAVY BOATS!!

    The question that you leave unasked is what kind of desperate are we seeing here? Is it really the desperation of those fleeing for their lives , or is it the desperation of those seeking a better economic conditions than those which they have left?
    The fact that most of these mendicants have passed through several countries where they could be described as being “safe” on their way here suggest that its the economic outcome that matters rather than their personal safety

  128. Iain, the question you have failed to answer is, how/why people here feel insecure. There is no evidence of this. It was a stupid comment that quite simply makes no bloody sense, don’t try and switch the argument.

  129. KitKat
    for as long as I can remember it has been expected that our government has decided just who is allowed to enter the country and who is allowed to stay here. When people just front up without papers or permission to settle here its hardly surprising that this is seen as being unfair to those who go through regular channels to get permission. And a threat to social stability and the rule of our law. Especially when some of these mendicants seem to bring their ancient animosities and unacceptable cultural practices with them.

    Of course these concerns are not anything like being in fear of one’s life but they are legitimate concerns none the less.

  130. Iain, let me see. How many lives lost a sea? How many years spent in detention? Yet you doubt that the people who choose to take these risks are desperate. It’s not an ocean cruise that these people are embarking on.

  131. Min, some even take time out to have a little fun.

    Clinton, Turnbull have came out with the same message in the last few days.

    Politics has become hateful, based on conflict. It might be good politics, but it does not lead to good policy, We are all worse off.

    Bipartisan leads to good policy. Hewson siad that th e battle between his and Keating was at times aggressive and full on, or words to tah effect. He also said he respected Kearting, and believed Keating, when he said he respected him.

    It is not playing politics ahrd and aggressive that is a problem. It is the hate that underlies many that is harmful and ridiculous.

    As for posts, there are times to many up, others, to hold off. It depends on the daily news and the interest that exist in current posts.

    By the way Min, I hope that you are having a good time.

    Some of our visitors seem to think it is about production, regardless of content and interest.

  132. What point was I trying to make Iain, All i did was make a comment on a news article about a Former Liberal PM dumping on TA your hero.

    Now Iain if you did not like the comment, why then did you respond the way that you did, calling me weak.

  133. “And a threat to social stability and the rule of our law. Especially when some of these mendicants seem to bring their ancient animosities and unacceptable cultural practices with them.”
    Any real evidnce of this buddy???
    Any real risk to our security would walk through a major airport with a valid visa, and you know it!!

  134. Iain and,

    KitKat
    for as long as I can remember it has been expected that our government has decided just who is allowed to enter the country and who is allowed to stay here.

    That is just straightforward migration, but then we do have our obligations to process people requesting asylum. We therefore still “allow” people to enter the country and we “allow” people to stay here as long as they fulfill the criteria. If they do fulfill these, then they stay. Therefore, by all criteria we maintain control over our borders because “illegals” are duly deported whereas those who fulfill OUR criteria are permitted to stay. So where is the loss of control when people who fulfill OUR criteria are permitted to stay, whereas those who do not are deported.

  135. Min @ 6:02 pm

    Iain, let me see. How many lives lost a sea? How many years spent in detention? Yet you doubt that the people who choose to take these risks are desperate. It’s not an ocean cruise that these people are embarking on.

    As I said earlier is it all down to the nature of that desperation isn’t it? For instance now that the civil war is over in Sri Lanka the claims from people leaving that Island are looking more and more suspect and its pretty obvious that its economics that is driving that migration surge. The UN charter, as flawed as it is, does not oblige us to accept economic migrants no matter how poverty stricken their home country may be.


    Catching up @ 6:05 pm

    Bipartisan leads to good policy. Hewson said that the battle between his and Keating was at times aggressive and full on, or words to that effect. He also said he respected Keating, and believed Keating, when he said he respected him.

    That only works sometimes CU

    It is not playing politics hard and aggressive that is a problem. It is the hate that underlies many that is harmful and ridiculous.

    Tend to agree but I think that criticism applys just as much to those who are fond of lattes as it does to those opf us on the right

    As for posts, there are times to many up, others, to hold off. It depends on the daily news and the interest that exist in current posts.

    Agree with that

    By the way Min, I hope that you are having a good time.

    Some of our visitors seem to think it is about production, regardless of content and interest.

    No I was just missing out on may Daily fix of Latte dripping amusement 😦

    paulwello@ 6:06 pm

    What point was I trying to make Iain, All i did was make a comment on a news article about a Former Liberal PM dumping on TA your hero.

    And my response was to point out that Frazer is hardly an appropriate source considering that he is no longer even in the party or even any sort of credible commentator.

    Now Iain if you did not like the comment, why then did you respond the way that you did, calling me weak.

    Because if you wanted to suggest that those with in the party were critical of Abbot then Frazer is a poor (weak) choice.

    Kitkat @ 6:07 pm

    “And a threat to social stability and the rule of our law. Especially when some of these mendicants seem to bring their ancient animosities and unacceptable cultural practices with them.”

    Any real evidence of this buddy???

    Gun Crime in western Sydney among the Lebanese Diaspora, FGM, honour killing, the oppression of women

    Any real risk to our security would walk through a major airport with a valid visa, and you know it!!

    I’m not talking about terrorist plots here KK


    Min @ 6:10 pm

    Iain and,

    KitKat
    for as long as I can remember it has been expected that our government has decided just who is allowed to enter the country and who is allowed to stay here.

    That is just straightforward migration, but then we do have our obligations to process people requesting asylum. We therefore still “allow” people to enter the country and we “allow” people to stay here as long as they fulfill the criteria. If they do fulfill these, then they stay. Therefore, by all criteria we maintain control over our borders because “illegals” are duly deported whereas those who fulfill OUR criteria are permitted to stay. So where is the loss of control when people who fulfill OUR criteria are permitted to stay, whereas those who do not are deported.

    And may point is that many of the mendicants are actually just economic migrants.

    Miglo @ 6:12 pm

    Yep, Iain, you are xenophobic. With a large dose of ethnocentricity.

    Migs I am very fond of saying that “God is and Englishman, because he could choose” My tongue is of course firmly in my cheek when I do so 😉 However I do happen to think that ours is a pretty good culture, not perfect but better than most and I see no reason to pretend that all cultures are as good or equitable as the politically correct are wont to do.

  136. So Iain your saying Fraser is not a credible commentator, he was a Liberal PM, if he is not credible who is, Even your other hero Little John Howard has come out criticising TA for being to conservative.

  137. I try to see the best in everyone…so I refuse to believe that you really believe the majority of the bullshit you post Iain.

  138. • Arrest/offenders processed statistics from Victoria for the five year period
    1993-94 to 1997-98 display the following patterns:
    The overall arrest rate of alleged offenders from no migrant group display a
    consistently rising trend over the five year period. However, alleged
    offenders born in the Russian Federation, Romania, Vietnam, Former
    Yugoslavia, New Zealand, Turkey, and Lebanon were processed at a higher
    rate than the Australian-born in each of the five years.
    The 1997-98
    statistics produce high alleged offender rates for those born in Somalia,
    Uruguay, and Thailand.
    Generally, the largest proportion of alleged offenders born in Australia and
    overseas, with the exception of those born in Cambodia, was processed for
    property offences. In 1997-98 this proportion ranged between a low of 34.1
    Australian Institute of Criminology Ethnicity and Crime
    vi
    per cent for the Cambodian-born and a high of 88.3 per cent for the
    Uruguayan-born alleged offenders.
    Among all the groups listed in the Victorian statistics, the highest proportion
    of alleged offenders processed for violent offences were the Fijian-born.
    More than a third of alleged offenders born in Cambodia and Vietnam was
    processed for drug offences in 1997-98, about a quarter of the alleged
    offenders born in Indonesia and Thailand was also processed for drug
    offences.

    Since 1994-95 alleged and distinct offenders born in Vietnam were the
    largest overseas-born group processed by Victoria Police.

    Generally young people in the age group 15-24 displayed the highest
    distinct offender rate and arrest rate declined systematically following this
    age.
    Migrant groups that had relatively high proportion of young people in their
    population did not display either the highest over all arrest rate or the
    highest arrest rate for young offenders.
    Arrest rate of females did not display significant differences between
    migrant groups. However, female distinct offenders born in Lebanon and
    Turkey showed the lowest arrest rate compared to those from all other
    groups.
    • The results of National Prison Census of Australia for the years 1982 to
    1998 show the following patterns and trends in imprisonment:
    The number of inmates in Australian prisons has increased from 10,195 in
    1983 to 19,906 in 1998. The number of inmates born in Vietnam has
    increased from 18 to 474 during the same period.
    Imprisonment rate of inmates born in Turkey, Lebanon and New Zealand
    has always been substantially higher than that of those born in Australia;
    since 1989 the rate of those born in Vietnam has been increasing and
    currently their rate is the highest. The same pattern is obtained when the
    rate based on most serious offences of violence, property and drugs is
    examined separately.
    The number of inmates whose most serious offence was a violent offence
    has increased from 4,167 in 1983 to 9,742 in 1998, an increase of 134 per
    cent. For the Vietnamese-born inmates the numbers increased from 12 to
    113, an increase of over 800 per sent.
    The imprisonment rate for the New
    Australian Institute of Criminology Ethnicity and Crime
    vii
    Zealand-born, whose most serious offence was a violent offence, increased
    from 102 to 261, an increase of about 156 per cent
    , over the same period.
    Among prisoners whose most serious offence was a drug offence, the
    number of Vietnamese-born, particularly since 1993, has increased very
    substantially.
    Hate Crime
    • There is some evidence of incidents of hate crime against migrant/race
    group. Careful examination is needed before some statements can be made.
    General
    • Crime statistics from Victoria, the National Prison Census, and the
    Australian Census of Population and Housing appear to show that migrant
    groups who suffer disadvantages such as poor knowledge of English, no or
    low level of formal education, low status occupation, and high
    unemployment rate tend to display high arrest and imprisonment rate.

    KK from the last link that you posted Hmm I wonder if that really supports your argument?
    My bold BTW 😉

  139. paulwello @ 6:53 pm

    So Iain your saying Fraser is not a credible commentator, he was a Liberal PM, if he is not credible who is, Even your other hero Little John Howard has come out criticising TA for being too conservative.

    Firstly I’m far too grumpy to endorse any pollie without reservation these days, that said I find it amazing that so many lefties now genuflect to Frazer as if the dismissal never happened because I am old enough to remember those events that just makes me chuckle. Further better to be too conservative than to be intent on constant change just for the sake of changing things.

  140. So Iain, you do not believe that change should not happen, that we should all sit on our hands and do nothing, go back to the days of just putting money in the bank and handing out middle class welfare and give the like of Gina, Clive and twiggy tax breaks so they can make more money and hope that solves all our problems.

  141. So we should stop the boats from New Zealand and Vietnam???
    Did you read the conclusion to the Collins article?

  142. paulwello @ 7:27 pm

    So Iain, you do not believe that change should not happen,

    Hmm a double negative in the one sentence makes for a positive statement 🙄

    that we should all sit on our hands and do nothing,

    Lets just do nothing rash that may not turn out as we expect it to.

    go back to the days of just putting money in the bank and handing out middle class welfare and give the like of Gina, Clive and twiggy tax breaks so they can make more money and hope that solves all our problems.

    While I am a great believer in frugality and saving It does not fallow at all that this means that I have to endorse either “middle class welfare” or the movers and shakers of the mining industry.

    Kitkat @ 7:32 pm

    So we should stop the boats from New Zealand and Vietnam???
    Did you read the conclusion to the Collins article?

    I did not read 143 pages of the PDF its rather long for this time of the evening. that said I have always been of the opinion that we should grow our own Australians rather than importing them form anywhere else on the planet

  143. Firstly I’m far too grumpy to endorse any pollie. That is just a weak excuse Iain and you know that.

    You are a true conservative, don’t build anything, sell of off anything that other governments built, tear down good policy from other governments and tax the population more and more just so they can hand out more benefits to the rich and middle class.

  144. He’ll be defending himself saying I was commenting on another article from earlier in the year. 😆 😆 😆

  145. “I have always been of the opinion that we should grow our own Australians rather than importing them form anywhere else on the planet”

    But then there wouldn’t be any white people here!

  146. Sounds like Iain is saying that people are produce, growing people, importing people, sounds like the days of slavery.

  147. “I have always been of the opinion that we should grow our own Australians rather than importing them form anywhere else on the planet”

    I’m pretty glad most intelligent Australians don’t agree with you because otherwise I would never had met many good friends, and married my lovely wife, and enjoyed my beautiful kids.

    I’m not sure that you understand how ignorant and offensive that comment is to many, many Australian Iain!!

  148. Here is a tip Iain, think about what you are going to type. If you can see Tony Abbott or Scott Morrison saying the same thing…don’t type it because it will be mendacious, ignorant and offensive.

  149. I don’t agree with much of what Windshuttle has to say, but he has added to Australian historical discourse so…yeah.

  150. Paulwello:

    Little John Howard has come out criticising TA for being to conservative.

    He did? Wow! Is there a link please?

  151. Kitkat, this is the list I’m referring to.

    Here is a tip Iain, think about what you are going to type. If you can see Tony Abbott or Scott Morrison saying the same thing…don’t type it because it will be mendacious, ignorant and offensive.

    .

  152. Thanks Paul. Good speech by Wayne Swan. I like the quote at the end: Liberals do what Liberals always do: attack the wages of workers and slash their services.

  153. OK, sorry I got confused between that and the list of immigrants that have been most awesome in the development of OZ. Cheers Migs!!

  154. Looking at what Cuppa said I thought I’d have a spray (bit pissed sorry) , I can’t believe that the GOP is trying to sell a Wall St man as Pres, on a platform that is pretty much the same thing what got them into the situation they are in now. Cut taxes and spending and increase deregulation and hope to move a country forward!!! Will never happen, never has and never will. If the yanks vote in Romney they are officialy fridged in the fridgen head.

  155. Hi Kitkat, I’d probably be having some similar thoughts run though my head about Australians if they vote Abbott in. Here we are with a first-class economy, why would you hand it over to fanatics of a proven failed ideology to wreck? Why?

    Actually, I guess we shouldn’t be too hard on the voters. At least, not all of them. A very great percentage of the population are politically manipulated beyond their ability to conceive. Conservatives are the greatest brainwashers you’ll find, and in addition they have the unmatched influence of the mass media to interface with the population. This cartoon (adapted for the Australian situation) spells out a lot:

    http://yfrog.com/ocmd2yfdj

  156. Capitalism vs democracy. Sounds like i’m a tin pot to some but that’s the fact.
    My distaste is that those (corporations) that promote unbridaled laissez faire economics have created a system that they, those very companys, when against the wall threaten to bring whole house of cards down unless they break their very own tenent. Fucking ‘borm to rule arsehole’

    Education is the answer.

  157. A visitor to this site needs to grow up and join the real world.

    Bipartisanship works most times. There is more that holds us together, than divides us.

    As for giving the likes of Mr.Fraser and Mr. Hewson credit, I see no problem. It is not the people most on the left do not like, and as the Liberals seem to do, it is their policies and views.

    Therefore ones has no trouble giving credit where credit is due.

    Most as we grow older, have the sense and grace to admit when we are wrong.

    As for believing in home grown Australians. Please explain why they would be any better than those who choose to come to this country. We live on a globe, where all should be seen as worthy. Unless they have committed some serious crime, why should they not contribute to this country and share our wealth.

    I am very proud of my many grand and great grand kids, that share parentage from may countries.

    As for crime, I believe the razor gangs of pre-war Sydney were very Australians. So were the early bikies.

    If you are so concerned about immigration, why not demand we stop the 53,000 or more, that came from NZ. Many of these where not of European heritage.

    The visitor writes much rubbish and gets much wrong.

    We are a nation of migrants, from all corners of the world. We have been for over two hundred years. This is what has made us what we are. It is what has created our culture

    Culture is not a static thing that is set in stone. It is something that is always changing. Every new wave of immigration or asylum seekers add to that culture. It does not distract from it. We take what is good from each.

    No, hate in politics gets us nowhere.

  158. Another interesting article on Tony Abbott. This from the article.

    “WHEN Tony Abbott lost the University of Sydney Students’ Representative Council presidency, he allegedly approached the woman who beat him and, leaning into her face, punched the wall on each side of her head.
    Barbara Ramjan, a social work student in 1977, told the author and journalist David Marr she thought Mr Abbott was coming over to congratulate her. ”But no … he came up to within an inch of my nose and punched the wall on either side of my head. It was done to intimidate,” she said.”

    Bully tactics came out early in Abbott, says former rival

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/bully-tactics-came-out-early-in-abbott-says-former-rival-20120907-25joi.html#ixzz25nIlUQM3

  159. paulwello 2 @ 7:46 pm

    Firstly I’m far too grumpy to endorse any pollie. That is just a weak excuse Iain and you know that.

    No Paul, its just an expression of my more general cynicism about politics and the fact atht I think that in the end we have to choose the lesser of the evils on offer

    You are a true conservative, don’t build anything, sell of off anything that other governments built, tear down good policy from other governments and tax the population more and more just so they can hand out more benefits to the rich and middle class.

    You obviously don’t understand the Old adage “if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it” which is not unusual from the left where the mantra seems to be “lets reinvent the wheel” in every political cycle

    paulwello @ 7:48 pm

    So Iain is now making comments on article he does not read, interesting indeed.

    I read the executive summary of teh piece and I even cited it in my previous comment

    Kitkat @ 8:07 pm

    “I have always been of the opinion that we should grow our own Australians rather than importing them form anywhere else on the planet”

    But then there wouldn’t be any white people here!

    How do you work that out KK? I’m suggesting that if we do want to have a bigger population then we go about making them form the people that we have in the country now. Further that we should educate them ourselves and encourage them to have their first loyalty to this country rather than to the source counties of their individual Diasporas

    paulwello @ 8:18 pm

    Sounds like Iain is saying that people are produce, growing people, importing people, sounds like the days of slavery.

    Unlike you Paul I don’t see any substantive distinction between human beings and any other animal on the planet.

    Kitkat @ 8:20 pm

    “I have always been of the opinion that we should grow our own Australians rather than importing them form anywhere else on the planet”

    I’m pretty glad most intelligent Australians don’t agree with you because otherwise I would never had met many good friends, and married my lovely wife, and enjoyed my beautiful kids.

    I’m not sure that you understand how ignorant and offensive that comment is to many, many Australian Iain!!

    Why should it offend you? Are your children not Aussies as much as mine are? You are actually doing precisely what I have suggested.

    Kitkat @ 8:39 pm

    Here is a tip Iain, think about what you are going to type. If you can see Tony Abbott or Scott Morrison saying the same thing…don’t type it because it will be mendacious, ignorant and offensive.

    Unlike you I don’t buy into the internationalist conceit that we are obliged to care equally about all of those who want to come here.

    Cuppa @ 10:01 pm

    Hi Kitkat, I’d probably be having some similar thoughts run though my head about Australians if they vote Abbott in. Here we are with a first-class economy, why would you hand it over to fanatics of a proven failed ideology to wreck? Why?

    We may have a first class economy but we have a no class government that has only one claim to fame and that is to have created a huge Ponzi scheme in the shape of the Carbon tax, further its a scheme that is falling apart even before it has even got really warmed up

    Actually, I guess we shouldn’t be too hard on the voters. At least, not all of them. A very great percentage of the population are politically manipulated beyond their ability to conceive. Conservatives are the greatest brainwashers you’ll find, and in addition they have the unmatched influence of the mass media to interface with the population. This cartoon (adapted for the Australian situation) spells out a lot:

    The sad thing is that you probably believe your own rhetoric here 🙄

    Kitkat @ 10:22 pm

    Capitalism vs democracy. Sounds like i’m a tin pot to some but that’s the fact.

    Only a minion of the left would make such a claim

    My distaste is that those (corporations) that promote unbridled laissez faire economics have created a system that they, those very companies, when against the wall threaten to bring whole house of cards down unless they break their very own tenet. Fucking ‘borm to rule arsehole’

    Education is the answer.

    What sort of education would that be? Something akin to North Korean re-education?

    Catching up @ 10:51 pm

    A visitor to this site needs to grow up and join the real world.

    Bipartisanship works most times. There is more that holds us together, than divides us.

    Yeah in theory we can all sing “coombyyah!”

    As for giving the likes of Mr.Fraser and Mr. Hewson credit, I see no problem. It is not the people most on the left do not like, and as the Liberals seem to do, it is their policies and views.

    Therefore ones has no trouble giving credit where credit is due.

    Well you are of teh left and they are both espousing views that you broadly agree with so naturally you rate their opinions.

    Most as we grow older, have the sense and grace to admit when we are wrong.

    Sure, but there are often reasons to seek forgiveness that has nothing at all to do with how right or wrong your original actions were.

    As for believing in home grown Australians. Please explain why they would be any better than those who choose to come to this country. We live on a globe, where all should be seen as worthy. Unless they have committed some serious crime, why should they not contribute to this country and share our wealth.

    Children that we grow our selves and educate here mostly end up holding values and aspirations that are both acceptable and efficacious to the future of this country. There is also the benefit to our economy to growing people here rather than importing them (teachers and carers will be be employed ect) Further the population increase will be gradual. Its not a matter of other people on the planet being more or less worthy at all. Its what is best for the country

    I am very proud of my many grand and great grand kids, that share parentage from may countries.

    Good on you I’m proud of my multicultural family as well

    If you are so concerned about immigration, why not demand we stop the 53,000 or more, that came from NZ. Many of these where not of European heritage.

    I don’t care if they are “not of European heritage” not a bit, in fact I tend to think that NZ is really a de-facto Australian state anyway

    The visitor writes much rubbish and gets much wrong.

    We are a nation of migrants, from all corners of the world. We have been for over two hundred years. This is what has made us what we are. It is what has created our culture

    And what I’m saying is that there is merit in turning of the immigration tap now and allowing a few generations to consolidate that diversity into a more cohesive whole

    Culture is not a static thing that is set in stone. It is something that is always changing. Every new wave of immigration or asylum seekers add to that culture. It does not distract from it. We take what is good from each.

    No, hate in politics gets us nowhere.

    But You are mistaken in thinking that its hate or fear that drives my thinking on this subject. Its rather like cooking a stew or a curry the flavour is improved by not adding too many ingredients too quickly and by letting the pot simmer for a while.

  160. …she thought Mr Abbott was coming over to congratulate her. ”But no … he came up to within an inch of my nose and punched the wall on either side of my head. It was done to intimidate,” she said.”

    It’s not just an alliterative epithet: he’s a mad monk.

  161. Morning news item said Abbott is denying the accusation and is very angry. The graphic was labelled Abbott Angry.

    Not that it will ever stop Abbott Liar making vexatious accusations against others and especially Gillard, but I hope this accusation makes him realise the consequences of his actions.

    He has torn down parliament debating and reduced it to base levels of negativity and meanness. He now can’t expect that his actions won’t come back onto him.

    It will be even more damning, and probably the end of him, if this accusation turns out to be true. But given his known problems with women of power who beat him or show him up then it will not surprise me one bit that he did it.

  162. Iain, it might amaze you to learn that this not common practise among Muslims. It is only found in communities where the extreme is practised..

    More likely to be found in those we legally, as some would say, from northern Africa.

    There are religions in this country so severe, that they separate families, stop children from having contact with parents.

    What is your point.

  163. Mobius,

    It will be even more damning, and probably the end of him, if this accusation turns out to be true.

    I thought that when the incident with Mark Riley happened. Here was someone, purporting to have the qualities needed to lead the country, caught on camera mutely nodding his head in unhinged rage for 72 seconds in response to one quite tame question from a reporter. On a topic that Abbott’s office had had more than two hours’ advance notice of.

    I thought, How can he survive this when previous Opposition leaders have gone down for things like an energetic handshake or making dumb ‘jokes’ about The Things That Batter.

    I wouldn’t be writing off the teflon idiot just yet. The media are likely to brush this under the carpet VERY quickly. Story dead by the end of the weekend?

  164. And re,

    And what I’m saying is that there is merit in turning of the immigration tap now and allowing a few generations to consolidate that diversity into a more cohesive whole.

    Where is the evidence that integration of migrants is not working. Having grown up in inner suburban Melbourne in the 50’s – 70’s I would estimate that today’s migrants are far more integrated than in the days of wogs, wops and dagos. I would consider that this is due in no small part to the Labor government’s changes which now concentrates on skilled migration such as engineers and nurses.

    This is a lot different to the factory hands and farm workers of several decades ago, that is migrants today are far better educated than previous waves.

  165. “What sort of education would that be? Something akin to North Korean re-education?”

    Another stupid comment mate, well done!

  166. Catching up @ 7:56 am

    Iain, it might amaze you to learn that this not common practise among Muslims. It is only found in communities where the extreme is practised..

    Yes I do know that but its not my point to imply that every Muslim wants to mutilate the genitals of their daughters.

    More likely to be found in those we legally, as some would say, from northern Africa.

    Where they come from does not matter to me CU my point is that we should not tolerate such things at all and anyone who does it should be imprisoned for a very long time and the abused children taken away from them.

    There are religions in this country so severe, that they separate families, stop children from having contact with parents.

    Really which ones would they be?

    What is your point.

    My point is that your judgement free consideration of other cultures leads to things like this.

    Min @ 8:13 am

    On,

    Yeah in theory we can all sing “coombyyah!”

    Or we can become a nay-sayer with zero imagination.

    I actually have a rather good imagination when it comes down to it its just I channel that imagination through a “what is both good and what is possible prism

    Catching up @ 8:17 am

    When new cultures come to this land, we tend to keep the good and throw out the bad.

    Well hopefully that is the case but when it comes to FGM how many girls have to lose their clitoris before this foul practice is stopped?

    Min @ 8:24 am

    And re,

    And what I’m saying is that there is merit in turning of the immigration tap now and allowing a few generations to consolidate that diversity into a more cohesive whole.

    Where is the evidence that integration of migrants is not working. Having grown up in inner suburban Melbourne in the 50′s – 70′s I would estimate that today’s migrants are far more integrated than in the days of wogs, wops and dagos. I would consider that this is due in no small part to the Labor government’s changes which now concentrates on skilled migration such as engineers and nurses.

    I’m a migrant who came here in the sixties Min and when we came here we were expected to make the effort to become part of the greater society there seems to be far less of that sort of expectation now

    This is a lot different to the factory hands and farm workers of several decades ago, that is migrants today are far better educated than previous waves.

    Its a bit like adding water to a sponge as I see it Min if you add water at a slow rate it can easily be absorbed into the whole turn the tap on too fast and it isn’t absorbed at all.

  167. KitKat
    I’ll admit to the sarcasm of my response to you but putting that aside its a legitimate question. When you say that “education is the answer” what precisely do you mean?

  168. I could be nasty and say, I am sorry we left our visitor in. But we do take all sorts, as it takes all sorts to make a great country.

    I do disagree when he says they got no assistance back in those days. What were migrant camps all over the country for up to the 70’s at least. I worked with many that began their les here at the Villawood one. I have known a few migrants that have come through others.

    I was disgusted when these facilities closed, leaving migrant to cope on their own.

    They actually get less assistance now, but that would not fit into the story so well for some.

    Your stories sound terrible. The trouble is there is no data or research that backs you up.

    We had he stories that w

    The wogs ate horse, the Vietnamese cats and dogs, now all our daughters are in danger of having their clitoris cut off.

    In my experience and over sixty years, nothing has changed in this debate when talking about who we let into the county. Also none of the shocking claims of disater and ruin have come to pass.

    Each wave merges into out community, and we all become one. This will occur once again.

    The likes of our visitor will ignore this and continue with their whine. For what reason, is beyond my comprehension.

    Maybe someone out their can explain why some think that their culture, beliefs and nationality are superior to all other. So superior, that they fear coming into contact with any other.

    What is wrong with live and let live.

  169. iain “You obviously don’t understand the Old adage “if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it”. Please explain then why the coalition wants to rip apart the NBN, which is upgrading our old phone system from copper to fibre, dismantle the MRRT. the price on carbon, which by the way Abbott also said is the way to go.

    Now Iain, you said “I did not read 143 pages of the PDF its rather long for this time of the evening. that said I have always been of the opinion that we should grow our own Australians rather than importing them form anywhere else on the planet” so u make a comment on something that u have not read, then turn around and say you did, people get into trouble for that, and you treat people like produce. you are one sick person treating people in that manner. I hope I do not meet you in real life for the fear of being thrown into your compost bin.

  170. I actually think it is full of people he does not like, as he said I treat people the same as everything else. So he has all these dead people in his sandpit

  171. Catching up @ 9:22 am

    I could be nasty and say, I am sorry we left our visitor in. But we do take all sorts, as it takes all sorts to make a great country.

    Well that is generous of you 🙄

    I do disagree when he says they got no assistance back in those days. What were migrant camps all over the country for up to the 70′s at least. I worked with many that began their les here at the Villawood one. I have known a few migrants that have come through others.

    Well I remember the Migrant camp that we stayed at in 1963 at Wacol it wasn’t as grand as you seem to think it was.

    I was disgusted when these facilities closed, leaving migrant to cope on their own.

    Why do you say that?

    They actually get less assistance now, but that would not fit into the story so well for some.

    The main reason that people stayed in the camps was a distinct lack of housing in the early sixties

    Your stories sound terrible. The trouble is there is no data or research that backs you up.

    We had he stories that w

    What are you on about?

    The wogs ate horse, the Vietnamese cats and dogs, now all our daughters are in danger of having their clitoris cut off.

    That is not the point of my citation at all

    In my experience and over sixty years, nothing has changed in this debate when talking about who we let into the county. Also none of the shocking claims of disaster and ruin have come to pass.

    Well in northern Europe they were quite sanguine about immigration and now they are reaping a rather bitter crop from what has been sown

    Each wave merges into out community, and we all become one. This will occur once again.

    When I cam here in 63 we were obliged to make our life here and to some extent abandon our old lives half a world away now days with cheap phone calls and even cheaper air travel its far too easy to hold onto those old animosities and cultural practices that we find abhorrent.

    The likes of our visitor will ignore this and continue with their whine. For what reason, is beyond my comprehension.

    I’m not whining at all as it happens

    Maybe someone out their can explain why some think that their culture, beliefs and nationality are superior to all other. So superior, that they fear coming into contact with any other

    I have said a couple of times that I think that we have a pretty good culture, not perfect but better than most

    What is wrong with live and let live.

    Nothing as long as you don’t expect everyone to do it here

    Min @ 10:02 am

    Iain, with imagination and determination then all things are possible.

    Well I imagine my back getting better everyday but no amount of determination will make it so

    Miglo @ 11:21 am

    I agree. Education is the answer.

    As I asked Kitkat what precisely do you mean by that?
    Who needs education and what is it that they need to learn?


    paulwello @ 12:18 pm

    iain “You obviously don’t understand the Old adage “if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it”. Please explain then why the coalition wants to rip apart the NBN, which is upgrading our old phone system from copper to fibre, dismantle the MRRT. the price on carbon, which by the way Abbott also said is the way to go.

    The NBN is very clearly a Rolls Royce solution to a Ford problem that is taking longer and costing far more than Labor predicted

    Now Iain, you said “I did not read 143 pages of the PDF its rather long for this time of the evening. that said I have always been of the opinion that we should grow our own Australians rather than importing them form anywhere else on the planet” so u make a comment on something that u have not read, then turn around and say you did, people get into trouble for that, and you treat people like produce. you are one sick person treating people in that manner. I hope I do not meet you in real life for the fear of being thrown into your compost bin.

    Do you understand the function of an executive summary which I read and used as the basis for my response.
    I am constantly amused when individuals think that humanity deserves a special place outside other animals or plants on this planet, we are just another element in the biosphere nothing more and nothing less.

  172. Iain The NBN is very clearly a Rolls Royce solution to a Ford problem that is taking longer and costing far more than Labor predicted, from what I have read Iain the Coalitions Broadband policy is just as expensive and will take the same amount of time and be inferior to the NBN

  173. Iain, once again answering to things that was not said.

    Who said the camps were luxurious. You said you got no assistance. You did not have to complete with the private rental market as most do today.

    In the 50 and 60, there was hardly rental accommodation available pull stop.

    The camps where at the best minimum accommodation. I had a friend who nearly lost her baby when the bassinet caught alight trying to keep warm.

    I believe the food was bloody awful too.

    It was tough then. It was tough today.

    I suggest if you do not like it here, one can always move on.

    All my people came here before 1850. I am very happy to see others come.

    Does our visitor realise that the things he see shocking in their culture, might just be what they are fleeing from. Dictators and fundamentalist religion. By the way female circumcision is not religious but cultural in some of the north Africa, mostly.

    What you are doing is demonising a race of people, putting them all in the same basket.

    It is not right. It is not fair.
    .

  174. paulwello @ 2:10 pm

    Iain The NBN is very clearly a Rolls Royce solution to a Ford problem that is taking longer and costing far more than Labor predicted, from what I have read Iain the Coalitions Broadband policy is just as expensive and will take the same amount of time and be inferior to the NBN

    Citation required Paul and do you think that you could learn the HTML prompts to differentiate your citations from your responses?
    Catching up @ 2:25 pm

    Iain, once again answering to things that was not said.

    Who said the camps were luxurious. You said you got no assistance. You did not have to complete with the private rental market as most do today.

    I never claimed that “we got no assistance” and when has it ever been the case that new arrivals did not have to find their own accommodation?

    In the 50 and 60, there was hardly rental accommodation available pull stop.

    Not going to argue with you on that.

    The camps where at the best minimum accommodation. I had a friend who nearly lost her baby when the bassinet caught alight trying to keep warm.

    Really??

    I believe the food was bloody awful too.

    Well they made me develop a life long loathing of Vegemite

    It was tough then. It was tough today.

    CU its always tough moving to a new place

    I suggest if you do not like it here, one can always move on.

    I love it here CU and I can think of no better place to raise my children

    All my people came here before 1850. I am very happy to see others come.

    Does our visitor realise that the things he see shocking in their culture, might just be what they are fleeing from. Dictators and fundamentalist religion. By the way female circumcision is not religious but cultural in some of the north Africa, mostly.

    I don’t care what the origins of the foul practice are it has no place in this country and any that would want to do it should be treated to the full weight of the law

    What you are doing is demonising a race of people, putting them all in the same basket.

    That is not what I’m doing at all You are projecting that notion on to me because you think that I can’t draw the distinction between individuals. I can and I don’t give two hoots what anyone believes in but once they do bodily harm to children then I won’t be at all deferential to their culture.

    It is not right. It is not fair.

    Tell that to the little girls who have been mutilated or to the young women brutalised or killed because they have dishonoured their family bay daring to chose their own partners. My point is that you can’t go through life just pretending that all cultures are equal in their virtue and beyond criticism.

  175. Citation required Paul and do you think that you could learn the HTML prompts to differentiate your citations from your responses? no i wont iain, i understand it ok.

    And Iain please explain why going FTTN is cheaper then FTTP

  176. Iain and,

    I don’t care what the origins of the foul practice are it has no place in this country and any that would want to do it should be treated to the full weight of the law.

    Not only is the practice illegal in Australia, but the Gillard government introduced a new class of refugee..those who claim for asylum is due to this practice.

  177. Min, it is certainty illegal.The woman from those countries are setting up protection to prevent young girls being taken overseas, it seem s by some mothers.

    There a many foul practices that one does not want in this country, The first that comes to mind, is the belief that one has the right to beat the wife.

  178. So I gather that Iain condones the practice of female genital mutilation, because he must if he’s against Western countries taking in these immigrants and having in laws that makes it illegal, so eventually wiping it out over time.

    To not allow these immigrants into Western countries with stricter laws is to say that the girls should stay in the countries where they are being mutilated, mostly by their grandmothers, and to then have them grow up, have kids and have them mutilated, which won’t happen in the Western countries they immigrate to.

    I surely hope that Iain is not saying we should stop these women from coming here and to other Western countries.

  179. Cu, there was a scare campaign in the msm a while back suggesting that Sharia law could be introduced in Australia. Yet another Major Furphy as no religious law can counter the Common Law…and there a number of religions who have had this misconception, mostly Christian ones.

  180. Miglo@ 4:35 pm

    Where did they come from, Iain? Ireland?

    Where did who come from Migs?
    paulwello @ 4:38 pm

    no i wont iain, i understand it ok.

    Well its your laziness and your loss!

    And Iain please explain why going FTTN is cheaper then FTTP

    I don’t speak acronym

    Min @ 4:40 pm

    Iain and,

    I don’t care what the origins of the foul practice are it has no place in this country and any that would want to do it should be treated to the full weight of the law.

    Not only is the practice illegal in Australia, but the Gillard government introduced a new class of refugee..those who claim for asylum is due to this practice.

    Yet its you lefties who are so keen to “understand ” such practices in the name of multiculturalism…
    Catching up @ 4:42 pm

    Does sound like a pommy, Miglo. Do not hear the Irish whine.

    Whine Moi? not at all!!!


    Catching up@ 4:46 pm

    There a many foul practices that one does not want in this country, The first that comes to mind, is the belief that one has the right to beat the wife.

    FGM is orders of magnitude worse than beating the wife


    Möbius Ecko @ 5:02 pm

    So I gather that Iain condones the practice of female genital mutilation, because he must if he’s against Western countries taking in these immigrants and having in laws that makes it illegal, so eventually wiping it out over time.

    What gave you that impression? Because its NOT what I’m saying here at all

    To not allow these immigrants into Western countries with stricter laws is to say that the girls should stay in the countries where they are being mutilated, mostly by their grandmothers, and to then have them grow up, have kids and have them mutilated, which won’t happen in the Western countries they immigrate to.

    My point is that once people from cultures that practice FGM emigrate to the west there should be zero tolerance of the vile practice in their new countries

    I surely hope that Iain is not saying we should stop these women from coming here and to other Western countries.

    Hmm why should that vile cultural practice have any bearing on who we invite to emigrate to western countries?

    Catching up @ 5:19 pm

    ME. indeed that is what he is saying.

    No it isn’t what I;m saying AT ALL!
    Min @ 5:21 pm

    Cu, there was a scare campaign in the msm a while back suggesting that Sharia law could be introduced in Australia. Yet another Major Furphy as no religious law can counter the Common Law…and there a number of religions who have had this misconception, mostly Christian ones.

    Sharia law has long been lobbied for by members of the Islamic Diaspora and the larger the minority becomes the louder such calls become. The experience in Europe certainly bears this out.

  181. “FGM is orders of magnitude worse than beating the wife


    Is it. You obviously have not been a victim of domestic violence either as a wife or child.

    One cannot rate injustices or cruelty.

    Both are terrible. You will find much domestic violence in this country. You will find it is much more wide spread and of a greater magnitude. A real, not exaggerated problem.

    Thanks for the acronym, which you say you do not speak.

    What experience. a few from your camp making a big noise. while the majority get on with leading their lives.

    We do have fundamentalist christians that also make as much noise. They are far from the norm.

    You are saying they should not come. If not. what in the hell are you saying?

  182. Who here is guilty of understanding such vile practices. I assume we all condemn them. What I fail to understand why that shouold stop. especially the women coming to this country.

    We had a similar problem in the past, of marrying young girls off, often to older men. We overcame that practice, to the delight, I assume of many young girls.

    Demonizing people is just not on. Is not a reason to reuse them safe haven.

  183. “My point is that once people from cultures that practice FGM emigrate to the west there should be zero tolerance of the vile practice in their new countries”

    But there is zero tolerance in all Western and most other countries they immigrate to, which is why a tiny handful practice it underground. When found out, and as I say it’s usually done by the grandmothers, they are legally punished.

    So if this practice carried out in a few pockets is not representative of the entire culture, religion or race, and even if a small handful who practice it do immigrate, but the practice is wiped out within two to three generations after immigration, then I guess this is a better outcome. In this case immigration is helping wipe out a horrible and debilitating practice.

    So I don’t get Iain’s point in all this, unless it’s as usual a deliberate attempt at demonising one particular ethnic group and tar the entire diaspora with that brush.

    Sure Iain doesn’t engage in such low racist based tactics?

  184. And of course these cultures are not the only ones (as suggested by Cu) to have practices now made illegal. Another example is plural marriages.

    If these people emigrate to a country where they know that the practice is banned, then they must be prepared to accept the law of the land. I realize that we have some religious leaders agitating to have their laws accepted, but that will not happen.

  185. It is not that long ago, that certain churches did not recognize your marriage if you married outside your church. Certain Churches refused to form mixed marriages.

    Our visitors arguments and points of view make little sense or carry any weight. They are only one thing, racist.

    Why one would believe they are superior to another race or culture, I do not understand.

    There is good and bad in all.

    What appears to happen, when the merge, the bad and extreme appears to get dumped.

    I believe we always, and I mean always, end up with better. At least that is what has happened in this country, after the initial period of disruption.

    I believe it has created the culture that our visitor holds so dearly.

    Yes, it can be improved. We can begin to have hope in the future. We can grow up, stop judging people by race, culture and religion, and judge them for who they are.

    History has shown us, we have nothing to fear from the infusion of new blood. It strengthens the culture we already enjoy.

  186. Well its your laziness and your loss, No Iain, you are being lazy and running away from the question again, a true conservative, are u afraid to answer the questions.

  187. Not, afraid. They just have no answers. If they did, we would hear them shouting from the rooftops.

    My son-in-law. who likes to tease me, told me he did not want an Asian schooling for his kids. Where did that come from. I do not listen to the radio jocks, but that is were I assume, this message is getting across. Thankfully he has no time for Pynes whine.

    Still does not believe me when the figures show this is not a high spending, high taxing government. Well time will tell. He told me the PM will be sorry when she is beaten. Suggested that it might not worry her, as long as she feels she has achieved something. Added it will be you and I that is sorry. No answer for that one.

    I still believe the next election will be about education funding, NDIS and dental care.

    Most seem to have little interest in the so called carbon tax. Most would ask what MRRT is, and the young will be asking when the NBNco comes to their area.

    Education, health and roads are always first priories. Why will it be any different next time.

  188. Catching up @ 8:18 am


    “FGM is orders of magnitude worse than beating the wife

    Is it. You obviously have not been a victim of domestic violence either as a wife or child.

    One cannot rate injustices or cruelty.

    That is just not true,v in either a moral or a legal sense.

    Both are terrible. You will find much domestic violence in this country. You will find it is much more wide spread and of a greater magnitude. A real, not exaggerated problem.

    Yeah well what does it have to do with the topic of FGM? Apart from you trying to do something of a bait and switch.

    Thanks for the acronym, which you say you do not speak.

    What experience. a few from your camp making a big noise. while the majority get on with leading their lives.

    We do have fundamentalist Christians that also make as much noise. They are far from the norm.

    You are saying they should not come. If not. what in the hell are you saying?

    What is that all supposed to mean? Sorry but its essentially incoherent.
    Catching up @ 8:27 am

    Who here is guilty of understanding such vile practices. I assume we all condemn them. What I fail to understand why that should stop. especially the women coming to this country.

    Everyone here who thinks that the cultural practices of immigrants should be treated with undue deference.

    We had a similar problem in the past, of marrying young girls off, often to older men. We overcame that practice, to the delight, I assume of many young girls.

    What on earth are you on about with this?

    Demonizing people is just not on. Is not a reason to reuse them safe haven.

    But that is precisely what I’m NOT doing here, you and Mobius have both implied that from my comments and you are both wrong to have done so.


    Möbius Ecko @ 10:54 am

    “My point is that once people from cultures that practice FGM emigrate to the west there should be zero tolerance of the vile practice in their new countries”

    But there is zero tolerance in all Western and most other countries they immigrate to, which is why a tiny handful practice it underground. When found out, and as I say it’s usually done by the grandmothers, they are legally punished.

    a legal punishment that us usually totally inadequate

    So if this practice carried out in a few pockets is not representative of the entire culture, religion or race, and even if a small handful who practice it do immigrate, but the practice is wiped out within two to three generations after immigration, then I guess this is a better outcome. In this case immigration is helping wipe out a horrible and debilitating practice.

    Maybe but “multiculturalism” tell us to “respect” the right of immigrants to maintain and propagate their culture rather than assimilating and anyone who is critical of any aspect of an immigrant culture is attacked as racist or xenophobic

    So I don’t get Iain’s point in all this, unless it’s as usual a deliberate attempt at demonising one particular ethnic group and tar the entire diaspora with that brush.

    Sure Iain doesn’t engage in such low racist based tactics?

    My point is lets call a spade a spade when it comes to cultural practices that are contrary to our own laws and a social expectations rather than pussy footing around in a quest to be “culturally sensitive”


    Min @ 11:03 am

    And of course these cultures are not the only ones (as suggested by Cu) to have practices now made illegal. Another example is plural marriages.

    If these people emigrate to a country where they know that the practice is banned, then they must be prepared to accept the law of the land. I realize that we have some religious leaders agitating to have their laws accepted, but that will not happen.

    As I said earlier once the minority reaches a certain level then things change
    Catching up @ 11:16 am

    It is not that long ago, that certain churches did not recognize your marriage if you married outside your church. Certain Churches refused to form mixed marriages.

    How precisely is that relevant?

    Our visitors arguments and points of view make little sense or carry any weight. They are only one thing, racist.

    Its the practice of FGM That I am condemning here not the poor deluded people who believe in it. Frankly its not at all racist to condemn FGM but I would say that it is racist to be so patronising of immigrants that you look the other way out of a mistaken fear of giving offence.

    Why one would believe they are superior to another race or culture, I do not understand.

    So are you suggesting that no matter what another group of people believe or practice that we should consider it valid and not speak out against that which we find unacceptable? We are all equal in our humanity but some cultures are plainly at odds with modernity and our own secular society.

    There is good and bad in all.

    Sure but the amount of good and bad in each individual is different.

    What appears to happen, when the merge, the bad and extreme appears to get dumped.

    Well that assumes that they will merge which happens less these days under the rule of “multiculturalism” than was the case in the wake of earlier waves of migration.

    I believe we always, and I mean always, end up with better. At least that is what has happened in this country, after the initial period of disruption.

    well we can all live in hope

    I believe it has created the culture that our visitor holds so dearly.

    Really?

    Yes, it can be improved. We can begin to have hope in the future. We can grow up, stop judging people by race, culture and religion, and judge them for who they are.

    That is a ridiculous sentiment CU who people are can not be entirely separated from their culture and religion so there is no problem with anyone’s culture or religion until its practice is in conflict with our secular law.

    History has shown us, we have nothing to fear from the infusion of new blood. It strengthens the culture we already enjoy.

    paulwello @ 11:25 am

    No Iain, you are being lazy and running away from the question again, a true conservative, are u afraid to answer the questions.

    No paul I will answer the question when you make it entirely clear what you are asking me as I said earlier I am unfamiliar with those acronyms
    Catching up @ 11:50 am

    Not, afraid. They just have no answers. If they did, we would hear them shouting from the rooftops.

    We have the answers but you lot are just unwilling to accept them

    My son-in-law. who likes to tease me, told me he did not want an Asian schooling for his kids. Where did that come from. I do not listen to the radio jocks, but that is were I assume, this message is getting across. Thankfully he has no time for Pynes whine.

    personally I’m more concerned about my children being indoctrinated with the Green religion

    Still does not believe me when the figures show this is not a high spending, high taxing government. Well time will tell. He told me the PM will be sorry when she is beaten. Suggested that it might not worry her, as long as she feels she has achieved something. Added it will be you and I that is sorry. No answer for that one.

    You keep believing that CU the rest of us know that it is delusional thinking

    I still believe the next election will be about education funding, NDIS and dental care.

    No that is the spin that Labor wants to campaign on but I think that it will be on the dysfunctional Carbon tax and the unending boat arrivals

    Most seem to have little interest in the so called carbon tax. Most would ask what MRRT is, and the young will be asking when the NBNco comes to their area.

    Do you know anyone who is not a lefty C U? anyone at all? I bet that you don’t.

    Education, health and roads are always first priories. Why will it be any different next time.

    It will be different because no one believes anything uttered by Gillard

  189. Iain, all you have to do is look them up, you are being lazy and not answering the question, you seem to know what the NBN is, the MRRT, AGW, ETS is.

  190. Pyne has announced that the Coalition will keep Gillard’s education policy if they are lucky enough to win government, they won’t automatically unroll it.

    Please note the use of the word “lucky” and not “deserve”. Very telling.

  191. Mobius, also Pyne’s use of the word “might”, which I suspect is a very big might..

    Again false economy in my opinion. If we fail to help all young Australians reach their fullest potential then we run the risk of denying ourselves a good 20% of future highly qualified professionals. This is doubly not-good given our skills shortage. We may not be able to rely on immigration for ever to help fill this void.

  192. “That is just not true,v in either a moral or a legal sense”

    Pardon me why not?

    It is as immporal mad this country just as illegal. That does not stop it from happening.

    I do not agree that the damage caused is not on a equal or greater level.

    You say anything, no matter how silly or ridiculous to keep your argument going.

    Sometimes I believe you do not read what you write.

    Domestic violence can and does lead to death, often murder, sometimes sucide. What could be worse than that.

    .

  193. “Everyone here who thinks that the cultural practices of immigrants should be treated with undue deference.”

    Incoherent statement that makes no sense. On top of that, you are telling lies.

    No one here or anywhere else, as far as I know has said that every cultural practce should be treated with deference.

    Aside from that lie, what you are using as an example, is not a common cultural pratice.

    Most who come from that part of the world, would agree with you, that it is not on.

    To clear any confusion , which I am sure I am not alone in, are you saying these people should not come because do not like some of their cultural practices. If not. what are you saying.

  194. I am wondering if our visitor can give us some examples of who practices this green religion, where they worship and who are the head people in leading this green order of religion.

  195. Your lack of understanding of what I have written, and you do not comprehend our little you know of our history. Yes, many from Europe in the 60 and 70’s attempted to marry their girls off at 13 or younger. The practice quickly disappeared in the second genration.

    You are using an example that is shocking to most. It is no is not as wide spread as to seem to beliieve. Please explain what you believe is being yelled from the roof tops. All I hear is bad government, big taxes , over and over. That tells me nothing. I forgot, liar.

    What I do not hear, is why you and your mob think Abbott and co will be better.

    Surely the Greens message of caring for the country could not harm your children that much. The one positive, maybe only positive thing I have got from you, that you do love the bush around where you live..

  196. Cu, and the practice of what today we would call underage marriages was common in the pioneering days. Early marriages are often tied in with the status of women. As the status of women improves via health and education, then the practice of early marriage recedes.

  197. I think, but I might be wrong, that the visitor believes all cultures are set in stone, that all that live in a country follow all blindly.

    The visitor believes that we are delusional, for thinking that there could be a better world, where we learn to get on together. According to the visitor, that is impossible.

    ‘Min, it is not us that has a problem, it is him.

    He is boring me with his ignorance.

  198. On the subject of Green issues being good for the environment, it would seem that the potential for these to also be good for the economy is improving..

    Regional leaders have agreed cut tariffs on solar panels, wind turbine blades, solar hot water systems and a range of other “environmental goods” in what has been hailed as a shift against protectionist sentiment after global financial turmoil.

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/apec-leaders-sign-off-green-measures-20120909-25m0m.html#ixzz25xUZtrHv

  199. Cu, it would appear that someone is falling into the trap of rash generalisations. We’ve had many of these referring to cultures and religions. I recall the generalisation that all Wogs fought using knives whereas Australians didn’t. There are many, many more of course.

  200. Iain is getting confused as to what is taught at schools, If he thinks that the green religion is the teaching of students to look after the environment as against polluting and not fixing the problem, he has a lot to learn.

  201. Paul, one of the things which doesn’t impress me about climate change deniers is that many appear to have little interest in a cleaner environment. That is very much a 20th century attitude, for example that we can continue dumping our rubbish into the waterways and Mother Nature will do the rest…unassisted.

  202. The people I speak to that are deniers are of the attitude is that ” I didn’t do it, so why should I clean it up.”

  203. “Can someone explain to me what is Green religion.”

    Whenever the Right couch something that isn’t a religion as being a religion as a form of denigration or point of argument then you know for absolute certainty they have nothing to debate with and their argument is so feeble they cannot longer support it with rational reasoning and lucid points.

    They call atheism a religion, support for climate change and the environment as well.

    They do so because it always leads to the one thing nobody can ever argue against, faith.

    I don’t debate religion much because no matter what is presented and the tact taken the religious person always comes down to saying they have “faith” in what they believe in and are arguing for.

    How can you argue against faith. No matter what facts, pragmatism, data and real life you use they will fob it off and say their faith overrules it.

    So when they have nothing to argue with the Right wingers accuse the other side of engaging in a religion and having a faith in it, not a reality. In this way they can eschew the argument as not being one worthy of their obvious superiority as they can’t argue against faith.

    Also note this is a form of projection because no matter how much you argue that you are not debating on faith but on facts and weight of evidence, they will just fob you off, not address the evidence and accuse you of following a religion.

  204. thanks ME, I sort of figured it out, I just wanted the visitor to explain it, but as always he has gone off to hide and not answer any questions.

  205. On behalf of the Denialati I can say that we are firm believers in global cooling and CO2 does not cause global warming.

    I can understand your concerns on this issue, but don’t be afraid the natural sinks are working overtime to soak up the extra human induced stuff. The green religion is faith based and a hoax, similar to religion.

  206. EG claims

    The green religion is faith based and a hoax, similar to religion.

    bit tautological there ?

    of course the claim is rubbish, as the idea of agw is based on EVIDENCE rather than mythology and/or wishful thinking

  207. paulwello @ 5:09 pm

    Iain, all you have to do is look them up, you are being lazy and not answering the question, you seem to know what the NBN is, the MRRT, AGW, ETS is.

    Why should I have to look them up when you could just tell me top move the debate along?

    Möbius Ecko @ 5:12 pm

    Pyne has announced that the Coalition will keep Gillard’s education policy if they are lucky enough to win government, they won’t automatically unroll it.

    Please note the use of the word “lucky” and not “deserve”. Very telling.

    I saw him on “Insiders” where he pointed out taht none of Gillard’s education plans are going to happen before she loses office anyway.


    Min @ 5:20 pm

    Mobius, also Pyne’s use of the word “might”, which I suspect is a very big might..

    Again false economy in my opinion. If we fail to help all young Australians reach their fullest potential then we run the risk of denying ourselves a good 20% of future highly qualified professionals. This is doubly not-good given our skills shortage. We may not be able to rely on immigration for ever to help fill this void.

    I think that the so called “skills shortage” has far more to do with an addiction to endless economic growth than a real need for more “skilled people”.
    paulwello @ 5:21 pm

    Can someone explain to me what is Green religion

    It is the faith based belief in AGW which has a very large element of misanthropy and a dogmatic condemnation of all of those who deny the tenets of the liturgy.
    Catching up @ 5:22 pm

    “That is just not true,v in either a moral or a legal sense”

    Pardon me why not?

    You are trying to argue that there is no difference between FGM and domestic violence now while both are revolting and unacceptable you can’t say that doing grievous bodily harm to a child is the same as a blow or two from a spouse. the former will be a lifelong injury where as the latter can be recovered from.

    It is as immoral mad this country just as illegal. That does not stop it from happening.

    Your point being?

    I do not agree that the damage caused is not on a equal or greater level.

    Hmm just imagine you clitoris hacked off with a knife compared to a “clip round the ear” which would you say is more serious?

    You say anything, no matter how silly or ridiculous to keep your argument going.

    Sometimes I believe you do not read what you write.

    I always read what I write and I think carefully about it before I write it as well

    Domestic violence can and does lead to death, often murder, sometimes suicide . What could be worse than that.

    I’m not denying that at all however most domestic violence is of a much lesser magnitude than bodily mutilation

    .
    Catching up @ 5:37 pm

    “Everyone here who thinks that the cultural practices of immigrants should be treated with undue deference.”

    Incoherent statement that makes no sense. On top of that, you are telling lies.

    No one here or anywhere else, as far as I know has said that every cultural practice should be treated with deference.

    You yourself have been insisting that “all cultures are equal” which must mean that you are turning a blind eye to aspects of different cultures that we would find unacceptable.

    Aside from that lie, what you are using as an example, is not a common cultural practice.

    Most who come from that part of the world, would agree with you, that it is not on.

    In some parts of the world FGM is far more common that you seem to think it is CU

    To clear any confusion , which I am sure I am not alone in, are you saying these people should not come because do not like some of their cultural practices. If not. what are you saying.

    What I am suggesting is that any migrant who comes from a country where FGM is practised should be sat down and told that it is a condition of their entry into this country that they agree to abandon the vile practice and if they mutilate their children here or take them overseas to have them mutilated that they will have those children taken from them and they will be expelled from this country as well.

    paulwello@ 5:52 pm

    I am wondering if our visitor can give us some examples of who practices this green religion, where they worship and who are the head people in leading this green order of religion.

    Just read these pieces Paul
    Catching up @ 5:54 pm

    Your lack of understanding of what I have written, and you do not comprehend our little you know of our history. Yes, many from Europe in the 60 and 70′s attempted to marry their girls off at 13 or younger. The practice quickly disappeared in the second generation.

    I’ll admit that I do struggle with some of your prose C U, often having to deduce what you actually mean through a haze of hastily made sentences that clearly need to be proof read. But I don’t agree with you that girls getting married at thirteen has ever been a big thing here even among immigrant communities.

    You are using an example that is shocking to most. It is no is not as wide spread as to seem to believe. Please explain what you believe is being yelled from the roof tops. All I hear is bad government, big taxes , over and over. That tells me nothing. I forgot, liar.

    What does this incoherent sentence mean?

    What I do not hear, is why you and your mob think Abbott and co will be better.

    Well they won’t be Labor or the Greens now will they? that makes them better for a start before we even consider any of the details

    Surely the Greens message of caring for the country could not harm your children that much. The one positive, maybe only positive thing I have got from you, that you do love the bush around where you live..

    C U why do you think that one has to be a “Green” to care for the countryside? You are right about me loving the bush though and I have raised my children to utterly respect nature, and to tread lightly on the planet. While making sure that they understand that the latte sipping Greenies are most often total hypocrites.

    Min @ 6:00 pm

    Cu, and the practice of what today we would call underage marriages was common in the pioneering days. Early marriages are often tied in with the status of women. As the status of women improves via health and education, then the practice of early marriage recedes.

    I don’t think that you should discount the fact that when lifespan is short that it makes sense to breed as soon as it is biologically possible.

    Catching up @ 6:17 pm

    I think, but I might be wrong, that the visitor believes all cultures are set in stone, that all that live in a country follow all blindly.

    The visitor believes that we are delusional, for thinking that there could be a better world, where we learn to get on together. According to the visitor, that is impossible.

    You start from the point of view that “all cultures are equal” which is plainly nonsense and when you have that starting point and the mythical Multiculturalism doctrine it is actually harder to extinguish unacceptable cultural practices.

    ‘Min, it is not us that has a problem, it is him.

    He is boring me with his ignorance.

    Hmm I think that its more likely that you are not up to rigorous debate CU

    Min @ 6:21 pm

    Cu, it would appear that someone is falling into the trap of rash generalisations. We’ve had many of these referring to cultures and religions. I recall the generalisation that all Wogs fought using knives whereas Australians didn’t. There are many, many more of course.

    Not I Min, I fully understand that its aberrant individuals that inspire such notions
    paulwello @ 6:32 pm

    Iain is getting confused as to what is taught at schools, If he thinks that the green religion is the teaching of students to look after the environment as against polluting and not fixing the problem, he has a lot to learn.

    I have children in school Paul so that means that I have a better understanding of what they are being taught than you do

    Min @ 6:40 pm

    Paul, one of the things which doesn’t impress me about climate change deniers is that many appear to have little interest in a cleaner environment. That is very much a 20th century attitude, for example that we can continue dumping our rubbish into the waterways and Mother Nature will do the rest…unassisted.

    You could not be more wrong Min most of us sceptics care just as deeply about the planet as you do. For me personally I resent the pointless focus on CO2 instead of other more pressing environmental problems (like waste plastic in our oceans) or the built in obsolescence in all of our manufactured goods.
    paulwello @ 6:43 pm

    The people I speak to that are deniers are of the attitude is that ” I didn’t do it, so why should I clean it up.”

    I don’t believe you Paul. on a related not have you ever flown anywhere?


    Min @ 6:46 pm

    Paul, also the attitude of I can’t see that and so it doesn’t exist…

    Actually Min the mantra of most sceptics that I know is “show me the unequivocal evidence”
    Möbius Ecko @ 7:19 pm

    “Can someone explain to me what is Green religion.”

    Whenever the Right couch something that isn’t a religion as being a religion as a form of denigration or point of argument then you know for absolute certainty they have nothing to debate with and their argument is so feeble they cannot longer support it with rational reasoning and lucid points.

    a belief system does not have to be formally declared “a religion” to evoke religiosity in its adherents and when it comes to the AGW theory so much of it is propagated on emotion and guilt that it certainly does meet the definition of religious thought. Further the way that heretics who do not accept the entire liturgy are denounced as “deniers” does not help your cause either.

    They call atheism a religion, support for climate change and the environment as well.

    Well both require a similar leap of faith because they are each essentially questions that can not be definitively answered.

    They do so because it always leads to the one thing nobody can ever argue against, faith.

    How many times have you heard the argument about “scientific consensus” and how many times have we been asked to accept the pronouncements of the white coated priests because they are “the qualified” That is all arguments from authority and all arguments form authority require, you guessed it, FAITH!

    I don’t debate religion much because no matter what is presented and the tact taken the religious person always comes down to saying they have “faith” in what they believe in and are arguing for.

    And have you not noticed that the AGW faithful do precisely that?

    How can you argue against faith. No matter what facts, pragmatism, data and real life you use they will fob it off and say their faith overrules it.

    Look at the AGW liturgy and you will see that the so called data is littered with caveats and assumptions that require “faith” for their reconciliation.

    So when they have nothing to argue with the Right wingers accuse the other side of engaging in a religion and having a faith in it, not a reality. In this way they can eschew the argument as not being one worthy of their obvious superiority as they can’t argue against faith.

    Well I for one have spent years arguing against the Green faith

    Also note this is a form of projection because no matter how much you argue that you are not debating on faith but on facts and weight of evidence, they will just fob you off, not address the evidence and accuse you of following a religion.

    I just call it as I see it ME

    paulwello @ 7:43 pm

    thanks ME, I sort of figured it out, I just wanted the visitor to explain it, but as always he has gone off to hide and not answer any questions.

    No Paul I’m not hiding I’m a little under the weather at present so its early to bed for me

  208. el gordo proves my point so perfectly.

    Having lost the argument on AGW, note how the denialists, and even the true skeptics, have become quieter on the matter as the evidence for AGW continues to pile up, it’s back to the reference to religion, proving there is nothing more to debate with.

    Stupid thing is that it’s actually the denialists who are running on faith as they have not credible majority consensus scientific evidence to back up their contentions, so can only be arguing on faith.

  209. Mo,

    the true skeptics

    are, in fact the scientists of course.

    Given the availability and variety of the evidence of agw from pretty much all scientific disciplines, i do not believe that such a thing as an “honest sceptic” exists – certainly, those denialists who term themselves “sceptics” are dishonest, and show themselves to be much more “gullible” than truly “sceptical”, given their propensity for discarding evidence which doesn’t fit their ideology, for “cherry picking” and/or misrepresenting otherwise valid research results and in lying outright when unable to substantiate their ludicrous, and often self contradictory claims.
    that they prefer such sources as monckton, watts, plimer et al, rather than the actual results of scientific research, illustrates the depth of their intellectual (and moral) bankruptcies,imho.

    ithose having abandoned reality in favour of their denialist fantasies, find themselves pretty much without any sustainable arguments left, hence the efforts to “project” such nonsense as the “green religion” slur, in attempting to make their fact free “arguments”

    Stupid thing is that it’s actually the denialists who are running on faith

    😀 true!

  210. Iain answer the question, you are just running away from answering it again, and by the way the answer to the meaning of life is not 42.

  211. I know he gave the answer on another blog, for a person of such knowledge he couldn’t even get that right, well he did but the answer the wrong question.

  212. ‘Those having abandoned reality in favour of their denialist fantasies, find themselves pretty much without any sustainable arguments left, hence the efforts to “project” such nonsense as the “green religion” slur, in attempting to make their fact free “arguments”

    The arguments for and against human induced global warming are complex, the scientists for the theory have put their faith in the ‘precautionary principle’.

    The Denialati are relaxed about the eventual outcome of the scientific and political debate.

  213. No Paul I’m not hiding I’m a little under the weather at present so its early to bed for me.

    you see Iain I do not believe you again. It is always an excuse on not answering the question.

    And what does this mean Iain. “I don’t believe you Paul. on a related not have you ever flown anywhere?” Cannot work out what this is suppose to mean.

  214. If I could but add my 😯 ..and it/she/him always said he was skinny 🙄
    El Gordo, welcome back…’they’ must need a ‘subject’ changer if your back… or is it a case of ‘all hands on deck’ as the tide changers 😉

  215. ‘…or is it a case of ‘all hands on deck’ as the tide changers’

    Yes…the Denialati have decided to return to the fray and mop up.

  216. El gordo, the denialati would indeed need to mop up given that the progressives are making a clean sweep of the climate change issue. 😉

  217. “..return to the fray and mop up.” …. good on ya El Gordo, the trail of shyte that Abbortt and his cronies have left needs a good going over…. nice to see that your willing to volunteer.. 😉

  218. Möbius Ecko @ 8:43 am

    el gordo proves my point so perfectly.

    Having lost the argument on AGW, note how the denialists, and even the true skeptics, have become quieter on the matter as the evidence for AGW continues to pile up, it’s back to the reference to religion, proving there is nothing more to debate with.

    Do you realise that your claim is rather silly? The evidence for AGW has not in fact been “continuing to pile” up at all in fact there has been more that a few cracks appearing that façade of “consensus” as the validity of the assumptions that underlay the modelling is crumbling. And then there are the so called “solutions” like emissions trading which if failing in every single instance to make the tiniest bit of difference to the amount of CO2 in the air and they are failing at a truly monstrous cost.

    Stupid thing is that it’s actually the denialists who are running on faith as they have not credible majority consensus scientific evidence to back up their contentions, so can only be arguing on faith.

    You do realise don’t you M E that “consensus” is utterly meaningless in science don’t you?
    pterosaur1@ 9:52 am

    Given the availability and variety of the evidence of agw from pretty much all scientific disciplines, i do not believe that such a thing as an “honest sceptic” exists – certainly, those denialists who term themselves “sceptics” are dishonest, and show themselves to be much more “gullible” than truly “sceptical”, given their propensity for discarding evidence which doesn’t fit their ideology, for “cherry picking” and/or misrepresenting otherwise valid research results and in lying outright when unable to substantiate their ludicrous, and often self contradictory claims.

    Do you actually ever read anything that argues against the AGW proposition pterosaur1? or do you only ever read screeds from the true believers denouncing them?

    that they prefer such sources as monckton, watts, plimer et al, rather than the actual results of scientific research, illustrates the depth of their intellectual (and moral) bankruptcies,imho.

    Its statements like this where you provide proof that the belief in AGW is a religious rather than scientific thing. because what you are saying is that only the anointed ones can understand the details of the faith the whole basis of your arguments on the subject is an unapologetic appeal to the authority of the priests of your chosen faith.

    ithose having abandoned reality in favour of their denialist fantasies, find themselves pretty much without any sustainable arguments left, hence the efforts to “project” such nonsense as the “green religion” slur, in attempting to make their fact free “arguments”

    My argument is that all of the argument about the validity of the AGW theory is actually rather moot when it comes down to the reality that we will not be able to effect “a cure” to the problem even if the true believers like you are correct about the effect of CO2 on the planet’s climate. The reason is of course due to global politics and the impossibility of establishing any substantive Global level response that your profits(deliberate spelling choice) insist is the answer.
    So that means that the only sensible recourse we have is adaptation if and when we need to do it.

    paulwello @ 10:40 am

    Iain answer the question, you are just running away from answering it again, and by the way the answer to the meaning of life is not 42.

    Frankly I would take the word of the late Douglas Adams over you any time. That said what was your question again?

    paulwello@ 11:06 am

    I know he gave the answer on another blog, for a person of such knowledge he couldn’t even get that right, well he did but the answer the wrong question.

    There is no wrong answer to the ultimate question Paul

  219. Iain, what is the question to the answer 42, you obviously do not know, and you keep evading the answer to my question.

  220. … and the bowl of petunias’ said ‘oh no, not again’…… and why did it say that??? Must of seen one of Iains overly long diatribes…. 😉

  221. Iain, have you noticed that you spend much effort in dissecting and criticizing the opinions of others whilst failing to provide any of your own opinions?

  222. ‘…the progressives are making a clean sweep of the climate change issue.’

    The watermelons are losing the waverers, evidenced by the council elections.

  223. Mo,Paul,pterosaur1, I dont have ‘faith’ in what Iain says anymore, thats why I *scroll*.
    Deny the denia-latti set….

  224. we get the democracy we ask for presents some reasoning as to the nature of the trolls collective idiocy, and makes some valid points as to how the facts vs fantasy dispute(s) may be resolved

    So, we get the debate we create.

    How can this be? Here we are, better educated and with more information at our fingertips than at any other point in history. You’d think we’d all be brimming with facts, honed by reason, and immune to spin.

    What went wrong?

    Simply, this: we have stopped discriminating between argument and sophistry.

    and continues

    We didn’t mean to become like this. But we need to face the fact that we’re ultimately the cause of the dreadful state of discourse in this country.

    However, the good news is that this means we can fix it.

    The very first step is changing the standards of discourse that we’ll accept – from others and from ourselves. We demand that, at the very least, any opinion on a topic of genuine importance needs to be delivered rationally, be supported by evidence and be free from fallacies. That’s not too much to ask.

    (my bold)………….

    We set the bar, and if an individual doesn’t clear it, we don’t even bother engaging with them. We just sideline them. Their opinions on the subject ought to be ignored until such time as they have a shot at clearing the bar.

  225. I finally found out what a watermelon ‘officially’ is. It’s a person who believes in climate change. Green on the outside, red in the inside.

    So yes, el gordo, most here are watermelons.

  226. I agree LOVO, but he is good for a laugh every so often. When he gives a link to another site to back up his so called opinions, it is always to his site, so again you cannot believe what he says.

  227. Yes LOVO I’ve been scrolling past him for a while now, always his long posts of providing meaningless short answers point by point as a way of not really answering.

    Otherwise I catch something of his when he’s quoted and respond to the person who quoted him on Iain’s quote.

    Rarely a short post of his catches my eye, but that’s about the extent of it.

  228. I think of “the otherside” as Fartelberries….. you know, the fragrant piece of fruit that hang on to the hairs of your arse after you’ve farted…. 😀

  229. Thanks Migs, if I may have the floor…

    I voted for Joolya, knowing her red background, because she appeared as joan of ark, a charismatic leader over the bureaucratic kev.

    If she had followed the script, gay marriage, pokie reform, drug law reform and equal pay for women, all would have been well, but instead she went off at a tangent after discussions with the greens.

    The rest of course is history and the ordinary people continue to suffer.

    My power bills have doubled because of a harmless trace gas, but its comforting to know that she won’t be burnt at the stake.

  230. “My power bills have doubled because of a harmless trace gas”

    Spoken like a true moron, one who most definitely does *not* support Labor, & probably never has. If your power bill has doubled-which I doubt-it will be down to investment in poles & wires-not due to a price on carbon. Also, CO2 is *not* a trace gas, but a very potent Greenhouse Gas-not that I expect idiots like you to understand that. As for Gay Marriage, Pokie Reform & Drug Law Reform-they’d all have been achieved if Labor had listened to The Greens-though I don’t see you presenting any evidence of people “continuing to suffer”-especially not given the very significant tax cuts that most Australians received in July of this year!

  231. Oh c’mon off it el gordo.

    How has your electricity bill doubled because of the Carbon Price? If it genuinely has then you have a legitimate case and should immediately make a complaint to get reimbursed and the power provider fined.

    Now please tell us how under every positive economic indicator that has been put out and the increased living standards, savings, disposable income, jobs and it goes on, have ordinary people continued to suffer?

    And finally after all the links, sources and evidence we have posted to the contrary, to your none, can you tell us how the man made portion of CO² in the atmosphere is a harmless trace gas. Is CO² a greenhouse gas or isn’t it? For if it is then at a certain concentration it goes from being beneficial to harmful, and if in significant enough concentration it becomes deadly.

    Finally finally. I don’t know why I posted this as el gordo is trolling on climate change again. A same meaningless and discredited assertion that will be followed by the same non-answers or discredited sources.

    Welcome back, not for me.

  232. Who the f**k is Marcus.

    ‘How has your electricity bill doubled because of the Carbon Price?’

    I can only go on what has happened in our town and east to the Blueys. It’s the plight of very small business, joolya has screwed us.

    Everyone is complaining, not just right wingers, that its doubled or tripled and we can’t raise prices because the whole town is suddenly in recession.

    One irate fellow said he had put in solar panels well in advance and his power bills still tripled. Just sayin’ ….

  233. ‘Is CO² a greenhouse gas or isn’t it?’

    Even sceptics accept that theory, but the denialati think differently, something to do with black body radiation.

    The science debate has moved on…but do drop into TDT (in the back room called co2 and you) I would enjoy a discussion.

  234. Hello el gordo.

    You know very well that the price on carbon has increased the price of electricity by something less than 10%, and that the majority of price rises over the last 5 years has been due to investment in “poles & wires”, so don’t come here trolling. I’m sure most will happily engage if you engage in good faith, but that crap you posted was anything but. Just sayin’…

  235. Don’t tell us the RWFs are still making a big song ‘n dance about the “carbon tax”! Lol, these mental midgets are heavily under the manipulation of the Liberal media. Useful idiots.

  236. Migs @ 1:29 pm

    Iain, have you noticed that you spend much effort in dissecting and criticizing the opinions of others whilst failing to provide any of your own opinions?

    On the contrary the way I dissect and respond to other comments here makes it very clear what my opinions are on various topics, If tehre are any gaps then anyone is free to explore may own blog to find out If I have written on the topic there.

    Oh Paul this is for you:

  237. ‘…so don’t come here trolling.’

    I’m not making shit up, there has been an enormous jump in power bills for very small business.

    Joolya probably imagines its a tax right off, which is the same as compensation, but we are all earning so little that we don’t pay tax and we have to carry the full load.

  238. can only go on what has happened in our town and east to the Blueys. It’s the plight of very small business, joolya has screwed us.
    ————–
    Give it up el gordo…if your town has been hit that much you need to change your electricity supplier…they’re obviously ripping you off. We’ve haven’t seen anything like that here…sounds like typical hype you get from the beer soaked, gossip-driven, always prepared to point a finger and whinge types with nothing better to do.

    Be an active citizen. Find ways to get cheaper electricity. I thought you Righties were supposed to have initiative. Must ya have everything handed to you on a plate?

    Gawd some Righties are a pathetic apathetic bunch of whiners these days.

    N’

  239. Hi Nas, that was a great post of yours. The bloke hasn’t changed a bit since then yet his fans still worship him. But whilst HE hasn’t changed, public opinion is.

    I might even re-blog your post if its OK with you.

  240. El gordo and

    ….gay marriage, pokie reform, drug law reform and equal pay for women, all would have been well

    . And so you’re going to vote for Tony instead. 🙄

  241. Nas, el gordo won’t find ways of decreasing her power bill. It’s much easier to moan and groan about them and blame the Prime Minister.

    I’ve found one way: comment on the blogs via my iPad more often and at the computer less often. 🙂

  242. el gordo won’t find ways of decreasing her power bill. It’s much easier to moan and groan about them and blame the Prime Minister.
    ———-
    Migs,
    the modern right-wing parties rely on moaners, gripers and hate-mongers to get their message out these days.

    They have no positivity and ideas to offfer…apart from making life easier for the already highly privileged, creating wars, and trying to convince the poor to have lots of babies and buy unaffordable houses so they fall into so much debt they must work forever…get so tired and sick they go for the easy convenience food and big pharma buzz…and opt for lots of booze and cigs to try and kill the boredom and pain. Libs are looking out for many big shareholders.

    They know if they can keep your kids tied to babies and debt they won’t get a professional degree and compete with their own silver spoon kids for well paid careers.

    N’

  243. Nas, an update would be useful. I could look through more recent posts to massage it a bit. There’s a lot of data out there. The patterns continue.

  244. El gordo could reduce her power bills by spending less time on the computer. :mrgreen:

    Spend your evenings outside combing the skies for alien craft. It’s free.

  245. Nas, an update would be useful. I could look through more recent posts to massage it a bit. There’s a lot of data out there. The patterns continue.
    ———
    Add to it…or edit part of it into your own…I have no probs with that Migs. You know I’m about the message…not precious about how it’s used. 🙂

    Gotta head off to make dinner.
    Have a gooie.
    N’

  246. Min, “And so you’re going to vote for Tony instead.”….. which should read again,still, always did…… El Gordo is here to disrupt the convo…. here to distract… here to obfuscate……here to muddy the waters…. Tony has called for all hands on deck because the changing tide is turning back his boat 😀 thats why shim has oozed on to the scene again…….
    Remember folks El Gordo has a long history in the fifth estate, a long disruptive history (deny that,ye of the denia-latti set)
    El Gordo, when are you going to give us one of your wonderful links to a silly graph or some right wing thunk-tank projection.
    Maybe shim could show us how the Artic is actually freezing up and not reducing or are you here for a last hoorah as the evidence mounts against your usual ‘confirmation bias’ diatribe.
    ……over to you ‘skinny one’ … 🙄 😀

  247. Iain you still have not answered my question, you keep evading the issue, going off on tangents that do not answer the question I have asked, All I want is an answer.

  248. By the way Iain, that clip gives the the to the ultimate answer, not the answer to the meaning of life, so your answer of 42 is wrong.

  249. ‘And so you’re going to vote for Tony instead.’

    Its hardly the point, we now look forward to a decade without social reform…thanks to joolya. The difference between Obama and the PM is that he understands the meaning of Realpolitik.

  250. Iain you said this. “Why should I have to look them up when you could just tell me top move the debate along?”

    Now to me Iain this means you do not have an answer, or are to afraid to answer the question I asked several days ago, which is it or do you like to runaway like your hero.

  251. ‘…are you here for a last hoorah as the evidence mounts against your usual ‘confirmation bias’ diatribe.’

    No…I don’t do diatribes. As I mentioned earlier, I’m happy to discuss weather and climate over at TDT.

    ‘Confirmation bias’…amusing.

  252. El G said, “Its hardly the point, we now look forward to a decade without social reform…thanks to joolya.” ……..where have you been lately, living under a rock 😕
    Thanks to Julia we are living in a country that is the envy of the western world or did you miss all that living under your rock.
    … and there are several ‘meanings’ to Realpolitik, which do you envoke…. put some ‘flesh’ on that or it becomes ‘a throw away line’…. *toss*

  253. El gordo, what social reforms could we expect from an Abbott Government?

    A serious answer would be appreciated.

  254. ‘…what social reforms could we expect from an Abbott Government?’

    None, that’s the point I’m making….lost opportunity and I’m not happy.

  255. el gordo how about discussing climate over at Deltoid Science, why do we have to got to TDT? Or why not discuss it here or Skeptical Science?

  256. El gordo, I’ve messaged you over at RTB. I apologise for my lack of engagement but I didn’t realise there was any conversation happening.

    I’d be interested to read your response when I’m back later.

  257. Möbius, I’m going to distract el gordo elsewhere on a subject of global importance other than climate change.

    You’ll no doubt thank me for encouraging her sudden departure. 😉

  258. OPPOSITION Leader Tony Abbott could face a probe by the Privileges Committee into whether he misled Parliament in comments about the shelved Olympic Dam expansion.
    Labor has asked Speaker Peter Slipper to assess contradictory statements from Mr Abbott about whether he had read BHP’s official statement explaining the delay to the multibillion-dollar project before commenting.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/abbotts-record-queried-20120829-2513p.html#ixzz263mcKuwI

  259. el gordo, what reforms wouldf you like to see.

    Now to electricity prices. These are some things that others have done to ease the pain.

    Put in some insulation. Works wonderfully. Some solar panels on the roof. Warmer blankets on the beds. Solar hot water.Maybe gas fires.

    At the same time, look around for cheaper deal. There are many available. Just be careful of the small print in this regard.

    Tell your local state member, you are not too happy with the present state of affairs.

    Now with the mopping up that you said needs to occur. It is going to be a big job to dry up all that melting ice. When we add all the disastrous weather, that is now being slated home to man made climate change, the job of mopping up is sure great. Maybe beyond mankind.

    From what you said, am I to believe that well over 90% of the World’s scientist are Greenie’s. That is an amazing state of affairs.

    Curious as to why you have come back. I am serious about what reforms that you would like to see.

  260. el gordo, what reforms would you like to see.

    Now to electricity prices. These are some things that others have done to ease the pain.

    Put in some insulation. Works wonderfully. Some solar panels on the roof. Warmer blankets on the beds. Solar hot water.Maybe gas fires.

    At the same time, look around for cheaper deal. There are many available. Just be careful of the small print in this regard.

    Tell your local state member, you are not too happy with the present state of affairs.

    Now with the mopping up that you said needs to occur. It is going to be a big job to dry up all that melting ice. When we add all the disastrous weather, that is now being slated home to man made climate change, the job of mopping up is sure great. Maybe beyond mankind.

    From what you said, am I to believe that well over 90% of the World’s scientist are Greenie’s. That is an amazing state of affairs.

    Curious as to why you have come back. I am serious about what reforms that you would like to see.

  261. RTD is the blog Min set up. Return to Blogocracy. I still have it in the Blogroll. El gordo uses it to talk about flying saucers.

  262. ‘how about discussing climate over at Deltoid’

    I’m banned.

    ‘why not discuss it here’

    That would be folly.

  263. TDT must be reb’s blog that replaced the gutter. The Daily Trash. You won’t find it in our Blogroll. We only link to like-minded sites.

  264. Cu, from your link to the SMH,

    Mr Abbott said he thought he was responding to another question on 7.30.

    So it seems that Abbott doesn’t even recognise questions, much less know any answers…

  265. ‘I am serious about what reforms that you would like to see.’

    I mentioned earlier the social reforms we expected from Joolya…pokie reform, drug law reform, equal pay for women and gay marriage.

    If she had done those things…avoiding CC and the asylum seeker fiasco, we would be going to the next election with an unbeatable lead.

    sigh

  266. El gordo, if you’re obsessed with the notion that we engage in groupthink then it is clear you haven’t been reading the comments over the last week or so.

    As Tom R would say, “do try to keep up”. 🙄

  267. “…we would be going to the next election with an unbeatable lead.”

    “We…”

    Please el gordo, there has never been a “we” with you on the side of Labor.

    Why are you treating everyone here as being stupid?

    You know why I know you’re full of shit, because you call Gillard by a derogatory as a deliberate belittling. If you were really part of the “we” and had voted for her you wouldn’t do that.

    You still go on about you stance on climate change as an absolute but with no evidence or knowledge to back up that stance, you do it out of pure faith, it must be faith as you don’t have credible science or data for your phoney assertions.

    I believe you only raise a denialist stance, and now revel in it for you once didn’t call yourself a denialist, purely to invoke arguments, not because of any real belief one way or the other, certainly not because of an incredulous faith.

  268. “On the contrary the way I dissect and respond to other comments here makes it very clear what my opinions are on various topics, If tehre are any gaps then anyone is free to explore may own blog to find out If I have written on the topic there.

    It appears your wisdom and superiority is beyond most on this site. I, for one, have no idea of where you are coming from. I( suspect you do not know yourself.

    Criticising what others say, is the limit of your ability, I fear.

    Please tell me why the other mob would be better. I am desperate to know, especially when you keep saying I am delusional. Please put me out of my ignorance and explain why.

    My problem is, I cannot find any reason to believe that the Opposition would be good for me. All I can see is disaster if he gained power. As I am ignorant and delusional, I need you to let me into the secrets, you keep close to your chest.

    Many have asked you to explain why you believe that others can do better that PM Gillard. In fact I would not mind some facts as to why the PM is so bad. Tell me what legalisation you would like undone.

  269. CU I have been trying to get an answer to that for days, but he does not answer the questions put to him, he will not explain as to why there policies are better then Labor’s and also cheaper or where the money will come from to fund there policies.

  270. Cu, ” As I am ignorant and delusional, I need you to let me into the secrets, you keep close to your chest.”……ahh, so good, thought I’d repeat it. 😀

  271. Paul, I am aware of that. We can only keep asking. We have no choice, as the visitor is the font of all knowledge.

  272. Catching up @ 9:27 pm

    “On the contrary the way I dissect and respond to other comments here makes it very clear what my opinions are on various topics, If there are any gaps then anyone is free to explore my own blog to find out If I have written on the topic there.”

    It appears your wisdom and superiority is beyond most on this site. I, for one, have no idea of where you are coming from. I( suspect you do not know yourself.

    Where I’m coming from is the place where good governance and sound administration trumps the stupid desire to constantly change things just for the sake of change.

    Criticising what others say, is the limit of your ability, I fear.

    Definitely not but when I point out the flaws in your arguments here that is not the trivial achievement that you seem to think it is.

    Please tell me why the other mob would be better. I am desperate to know, especially when you keep saying I am delusional. Please put me out of my ignorance and explain why.

    I have actually answered this question many times, however I think that you want more, you want and argument that will convince you, a card carrying Gillard fan, that Abbott would be better. Well we both know that no matter what Gillard does you are still going to vote for her. So I concede that I don’t have and argument that will convince YOU (or Paul)to vote against Labor but that does not matter because enough swinging voters have already abandoned Labor and the Loopy Greens to give government to Abbott at the next election.

    My problem is, I cannot find any reason to believe that the Opposition would be good for me. All I can see is disaster if he gained power. As I am ignorant and delusional, I need you to let me into the secrets, you keep close to your chest.

    The reason for your problem is two fold, firstly you believe in socialism and the failed ideology of the left and secondly you have been far too willing to accept Labor spin about its disastrous policy failures.

    Many have asked you to explain why you believe that others can do better that PM Gillard. In fact I would not mind some facts as to why the PM is so bad. Tell me what legalisation you would like undone.

    The entire “clean energy future” shambles will go for a start along with lunacy like the mining tax,and also any of labor’s attempts at social engineering.
    paulwello @ 9:42 pm

    CU I have been trying to get an answer to that for days, but he does not answer the questions put to him, he will not explain as to why there policies are better then Labor’s and also cheaper or where the money will come from to fund there policies.

    Like CU you say that you want me to give you “reasons” to vote against Labor and I have given you reasons only to have you to insist that those reasons are “not enough”
    LOVO @ 9:47 pm

    Cu, ” As I am ignorant and delusional, I need you to let me into the secrets, you keep close to your chest.”……ahh, so good, thought I’d repeat it. 😀

    Hmm there is many a true word spoken in jest Lovo 😉
    Catching up @ 9:57 pm

    Paul, I am aware of that. We can only keep asking. We have no choice, as the visitor is the font of all knowledge.

    Ah well its nice to be appreciated….

  273. you know he still does not give answers, he is all talk, but when put to the task of answering the questions, he lets us all down again. And he does not know the answer to the meaning of life (sic).

  274. On the Nauru amendment vote last night, Abbott chose not to be paired with the PM, who is on bereavment leave. Instead the opposition chose Moylan as the pair, as she was more likely to abstain on voting. So the vote notes the PM was paired but the record also shows that Abbott himself would not pair the PM.

  275. Visitor, sorry we do not agree. We do not comprehend. We do not understand the message you are sending. All we see is our comments criticised and pulled to pieces. You are failing to get your message across. Suggest you bypass criticising us at every opportunity. and just tell us what you think. We are very interested in hearing why you believe others can do a better job than our present PM. Why we would be better off. We have told you why we believe the present PM is doing a good job.

    Tell us the reason why Mr. Abbott would be better for us. I agree with many that say you are just hot air.

    By the way, I do not expect you will tell us anything. We will just get another long reply, that says absolutely nothing new. How many times do we have to tell you, we do not think you are that clever.

    Have visited your own blog. Find nothing there to interest me. Have not noticed many comments from others as well.

    Nice setup but lacking in content.

    We do not accept that you are correct about flaws in our arguments. We do at least put up an argument. You do not.

    Yes, I will vote for the PM. One because I believe she is doing a good job. Not perfect, but one does not expect that. Two, I would not vote for the other mob, as they scare the daylights out of me. I do not agree with his policies, at least the few he has revealed. I do not want to see the things this and the previous government pulled down. I do not want to see the Howard government returned.

    I want a government that looks to the future not the past.

    I want a doer, not a demolisher.

    Yes it appears that the voters might be deserting the Greens.Do you really believe they will move to Abbott. I believe the message being sent, is that many of their supporters do not agree with their present stance on asylum seekers.

    It Abbott is elected, he will be the most unpopular Opposition leader to do so.

    Yes I am a Labor voter. What’s more I am a proud Labor voter. I am in favour of most of what they have done.

    Yes. I agree with the Clean Energy Future. Most still believe in man made climate change.

    Therefore this is the best solution. Mr. Abbott offers us a more expensive solution, based on unproven technology. That does not make sense.

    We are getting a NBN, that Mr. Turnbull obviously agrees with as he is investing in at least two similar systems overseas.

    I agree with the PM’s hopes for health. education and disabilities. They all offer hope for the future.

    I do like the way that this PM is dismantling the Howard governments handouts to the rich, to pay for the new proposals.

    I also know that you will once again say I have it wrong. Once again, you will say this without offering facts or data to prove so.

    Noticed, I do not say Abbott is bad. I say what I do not like about him. Most of all I condemn his actions and what he is promising to do. That is, demolish all within his path.

    I like a builder, not a demolisher.

    No, visitor, I do not understand what makes you tick, or what you are trying to tell us.

    I suspect most others here feel the same way. Maybe someone else can explain to me, what the \visitor is trying to convince us of. Straight talking would go along way to fix this problem.

    Stop dissecting and just tell us. Your method is not working. It is just annoying to see ones words flung back with no explanation, except that we are wrong. We can all cut and paste. That is all you are doing, with snide comments. Not that smart, as most will agree.

    I could be wrong. Does anyone understand or agree with the visitor, who has to come to this site, because he cannot get a bite on his own.

  276. ‘Tell me what legalisation you would like undone.’

    The PM has been punished on two main issues, CC and refugees. She has finally fixed the asylum seeker problem at long last, now all she has to say on CC is that the science has moved on and it appears there is no immediate danger from global warming….and will drop the tax.

  277. Please, and I know I’m going to regret this, el gordo show us where the science has moved on?

    Everywhere I go and across the globe, from most governments, even ones you would never think to take notice of this issue, and every major education and scientific institution plus most of the smaller ones as well, have moved on, to AGW being more accepted and the evidence being sounder for it happening.

    The only ones now against it, and even they are slowly being mute on the issue, are right wing think tanks and vested interest groups who make up a tiny fraction of the issue, though they have lots of money and media clout so can be loud.

    So I would love to know where all this evidence that it has moved on against climate change?

    By the way, since you are back and in the past you have changed positions so many times, what position do you currently hold?

    1. Globe is cooling and going into and ice age.
    2. Globe is warming but it’s natural.
    3. Nothing is happening at all.

  278. el gordo, the danger for you is, that many will wake uo that the CC solution is the best available.

    It going to be a surprise for you, when you wake up to the fact, that the system being put in place bears little resemblance to Howard’s Pacific solution. The only thing in common, is the Islands being used.

    Howard set out to isolate these people, keeping all away. This system is fully opened to public Surveillance

    People will know they have a long wait. They will know from the beginning what their future is. This is difference from waiting for years, not knowing what ones future is.

    They are warned before they set out.

    There is still efforts going on to follow through with Malaysia and maybe Indonesia as well.

    There are increased efforts to work with all in the region to prevent the boats from setting out. Turning the boats back is not on.

    Temporary visas are not requires, as they will not be setting foot in this country.

    The pressure will be taken off the need to get on the boats by over 6000 more being taken from the region. Maybe this number will need to be revised.

    It looks like all will be done to make the wait as productive as possible with the provision of education and training.

    Children are to receive education within the local school system.

    There is to be an effort to allow the asylum seekers to contribute to the local communities. Being a small island, this will be limited.

    I do hope that there is also some effort, to make their wait more comfortable in Malaysia and Indonesia for starters.

    No, this is not and is not meant to be a rebirth of the Pacific Solution, that was based purely on punishing those who boarded the boats.

    Nauru and Manus Island are only seen as a circuit breaker and stop gap.solution. It is described as so within the report handed down.

    Do not be taken in by Morrison continuous whining that this is the Pacific Solution. He knows it is not, but is happy to mislead for political advantage.

    It is his greatest hope that the boats keep coming.

    I do not like the solution, but the reality is, it is the best we are going to get at this time. Racism still reigns in this country.

  279. Catching up @ 7:50 am

    Visitor, sorry we do not agree. We do not comprehend. We do not understand the message you are sending.

    Really??? well there are none as blind as those who will not see…

    All we see is our comments criticised and pulled to pieces. You are failing to get your message across. Suggest you bypass criticising us at every opportunity. and just tell us what you think.

    Clearly I think that your political opinions and the reasoning behind them are foolish and mistaken

    We are very interested in hearing why you believe others can do a better job than our present PM. Why we would be better off. We have told you why we believe the present PM is doing a good job.

    Well It would not be hard to do better than Gillard, all an alternative PM has to do is not make grand sounding announcements that are composed of wishes and what ifs We would be better off under and administration the dumps the stupid and futile carbon tax regime because that will lift a huge burden from our economy.

    Tell us the reason why Mr. Abbott would be better for us. n I agree with many that say you are just hot air.

    Abbott will be better for us because he will not be driven by the failed ideology of the left, by the religiosity of the AGW orthodoxy and he believes in governments living within their means rather than creating an ever growing debt buying tack that has no benefit to the nation.

    By the way, I do not expect you will tell us anything. We will just get another long reply, that says absolutely nothing new. How many times do we have to tell you, we do not think you are that clever.

    There is nothing new in anything CU and I suspect that part of your problem is that you minions of the left are addicted to the novelty of change and the hope that change will be for the good rather than to the worse to society.

    Have visited your own blog. Find nothing there to interest me. Have not notice many comments from others as well.

    Really CU you fond nothing that got you thinking at all?

    Nice set-up but lacking in content.

    Oh there is lots of content but clearly you must think that only left leaning content counts

    We do not accept that you are correct about flaws in our arguments. We do at least put up an argument. You do not.

    Do you speak for the collective or are you using the royal we here? You see I don’t expect to win any of you lot over to my point of view with any particular comment or response. But it will be interesting to look back on all of the clear faith in Labor/Greens potential for re-election that is evident in latte land and its that longer view that I’m considering here in my responses to your arguments.

    Yes, I will vote for the PM. One because I believe she is doing a good job. Not perfect, but one does not expect that. Two, I would not vote for the other mob, as they scare the daylights out of me. I do not agree with his policies, at least the few he has revealed. I do not want to see the things this and the previous government pulled down. I do not want to see the Howard government returned.

    Firstly John Howard has retired from politics, secondly thanks for admitting what I have been suggesting, namely nothing would convince you that Gillard is bad for the country,

    I want a government that looks to the future not the past.

    You say that with a straight face when our beloved treasurer has been trying so hard to revive outdated notions of class warfare?

    I want a doer, not a demolisher.

    Well I want my doers to do things that are useful and efficacious as for demolitions do you really think that an incoming coalition should retain Labor’s stupid schemes like the carbon tax?

    Yes it appears that the voters might be deserting the Greens.Do you really believe they will move to Abbott.

    No the ones who are deserting the Greens appear to be returning to the ALP

    It Abbott is elected, he will be the most unpopular Opposition leader to do so.

    an achievement to be celebrated then 😉

    Yes I am a Labor voter. What’s more I am a proud Labor voter. I am in favour of most of what they have done.

    Well just our of curiosity what is it that Labor have done that you disapprove of then?

    Yes. I agree with the Clean Energy Future. Most still believe in man made climate change.

    Even if you believe in “climate change” there are lots of reasons to be dismayed by Labor’s wacky scheme.

    Therefore this is the best solution. Mr. Abbott offers us a more expensive solution, based on unproven technology. That does not make sense.

    As I have said before I am not fond of the coalition’s direct action policy that much either but its a little bit better that Labor’s scheme

    We are getting a NBN, that Mr. Turnbull obviously agrees with as he is investing in at least two similar systems overseas.

    Well that is the promise of the NBN but Labor don’t have much of a record for its promises turning out as expected

    I agree with the PM’s hopes for health. education and disabilities. They all offer hope for the future.

    Well I don’t think that the promises ion these issues are credible and that they have been hastily cobbled together to distract from Gillard’s policy failures elsewhere.

    I do like the way that this PM is dismantling the Howard governments handouts to the rich, to pay for the new proposals.

    What was I saying earlier about class warfare?

    I also know that you will once again say I have it wrong. Once again, you will say this without offering facts or data to prove so.

    If I knew precisely what Howard programs you were talking about I could offer an opinion but as I don’t I therefore won’t say that you are right or wrong.

    Noticed, I do not say Abbott is bad. I say what I do not like about him. Most of all I condemn his actions and what he is promising to do. That is, demolish all within his path.

    You make him sound like Attila the Hun CU! what is he promising to do that so scares you? repeal the carbon tax? How will you be worse off from that? Stop the boats? once again How will that make you worse off? Come on give us a blow by blow explanation of what Abbott may do that worries you.

    I like a builder, not a demolisher.

    The problem is that Labor as a builder is all facarde and no building behind that false front so you must ask is what Labor is building real or false?

    No, visitor, I do not understand what makes you tick, or what you are trying to tell us. I

    suspect most others here feel the same way. Maybe someone else can explain to me, what the \visitor is trying to convince us of. Straight talking would go along way to fix this problem.

    I do this for may own amusement just as you do I just love a good argument, nothing more complex than that.

    Stop dissecting and just tell us. Your method is not working. It is just annoying to see ones words flung back with no explanation, except that we are wrong. We can all cut and paste. That is all you are doing, with snide comments. Not that smart, as most will agree. I could be wrong. Does anyone understand or agree with the visitor, who has to come to this site, because he cannot get a bite on his own.

    Its a game CU rather like internet chess but instead of pawns , bishops and knights, we play with the politics of the day and its a long game rather than something that is over in an instant I must say though You are not proving to be the most scintillating opponent I have ever versed but I live in hope that you will pick up your game.

  280. I do not like the solution, but the reality is, it is the best we are going to get at this time.

    I agree!

    The sooner the Government can implement their chosen solution, the better.

  281. The Republicans ignore CC. The President put if up front in his speech. What that means, I am not sure. It does indication that Obama believes it is an issue, which he is promising to address.

    Every day, we read reports of the damage now being done by CC. Whether it is the ice melting, or changing conditions that is occurring in our oceans.

    More and more natural disasters are being attributed to CC.

    Yes, the science has well and truly moved on. It is now saying it is here, not that it is coming.

    We only get one chance at this. Once the carbon is in the atmosphere, it will be there for hundreds of years. Nothing we can do, will undo the damage.

    Once the climate is warmer, we cannot bring it down. It is not about lowering temperatures. it is about stopping them from rising.

    I just wish someone would tell the likes of Bolt that. As far as I know, know, no one has said the aim is to bring temperatures down.

  282. Does one get the feeling that there is a push to revisit Hockey for Opposition leader among his party. Even Bolt has good words for him. Hockey seems to be stating his won case.

  283. Visitor, if the cap fits wear it

    Yes, there are none so blind that refuses to see. Do you ever look in a mirror. If one does not agree with you, they are wrong, blind and stupid.

    Sorry I do not buy your explanation. I believe you are projecting your own personality onto me.

    Prove where I have given false information or facts.

    Why is it so important that I have to agree with you. My opinions are as creditable as yours. Sometimes I believe more so.

    Do you realise that this so called debate is going around in circles. Why you keep up with the criticism is beyond me. It is OK not to agree. Why keep kicking a dead and stinking horse.

    Where are all those who think I am wrong, coming to your defence.

    Please those who agree with the visitor I am wrong, side with him. It is lonely to keep up a argument, when none seem to agree.

    I am very happy to live and let live. Maybe you should try the same. Give up re-educating us, we are a lost cause as far as you are concerned.

  284. Visitor, note, I do not say you are wrong. I do not say your are stupid. I say, I disagree. Carnot you get that.

  285. “Abbott will be better for us because he will not be driven by the failed ideology of the left, by the religiosity of the AGW orthodoxy and he believes in governments living within their means rather than creating an ever growing debt buying tack that has no benefit to the nation. ”

    No, he will be driven by the ideology of Santamaria and the long dead DLP.

  286. by the religiosity of the AGW orthodoxy

    lol. You mean the guy who who tried to stop the morning after pill on his religious beliefs ROFL

    believes in governments living within their means

    You mean the guy who was a member of a Government who steered the nations treasury into a structural deficit 😯

    Really, you normally have to pay for this standard of comedy 😆

  287. Cu,
    thnx for the support of my Abbott post.
    I thought David Marr too easy on Abbott on Lateline…he’s written some excellent stuff providing interesting, revealing details about Abbott’s past…his bullyboy tactics…his Santamaria like fervour…his wrecking ball approach to organisations that don’t suit his needs…his problem with women who present hurdles for him or stand up to him…his quest to wipe out abortion (noble to want to protect all children but unrealistic considering the human interactive environment, history, womens’ rights, the inability of science to put creation and gestation outside the body and convince the populace to follow such)…

    this is an unpredictable raging bull who is not as self-disciplined as Marr would have us believe…as my post and others on here, and across the blogosphere and MSM have demonstrated.

    Abbott has been treated with kid gloves due to his long-term relationship with the media industry, his powerful allies…and the bias in the media created during the Howard years. And the fact that ALP own goals gave him an opening.

    In any other true democracy Tony Abbott’s antics would’ve been scrutinised intensely…his stuffups and raging in parliament in all probability seeing him gone within a year…apart from say Italy (but what does that tell us? Berlusconi dominated the media…a weakened democracy).

    N’

  288. I do not play chess but I suspect you would be easy to beat. You only appear to have one game play, that you keep repeating over and over.

    If I am not a worthy opponent, I would not mind if you gave me a miss. It is boring having to make replies when you challenge one,

    I can live with you ignoring everything I have to say. I have said this before, but it is another thing that you appear not to see or comprehend..

    In case you have not noticed, the PM has put in place everything she promised to do. The PM is now laying the groundwork for what is needed into the future. Yes, it would be nice if it could be done quicker, but that in the present global economy would be irresponsible.

    We, after five years of Labor, have one of the best economies in the world. Lower spending and taxes than Howard. Fairer IR laws.

    As for bringing back the Howard government. I say this, as Mr. Abbott’s proudest boast is that he still has most of his front bench in place.

    After five years, where are the Opposition rising stars. They do not exist, or at the very least, getting a chance to shine.

  289. @ Cu 9:40

    I just wish someone would tell the likes of Bolt that.

    bolt, his flying monkeys, and the imposing trolls here have all been told that – the response – fingers in ears, “nah nah nah i can’t hear.”

    there is NO evidence supporting their collective fantasies, so they are reliant on FUD, lies, smears, bullshit and their vain attempts to spread malice wherever possible, hoping to destroy, and create conflict wherever they are able, rather than admit they are cowards, and unable to deal with the challenges posed by the reality of agw.

  290. Nasking, I am on the way out. Yes, I believe he went too lightly. Said that the episode was in the past when he was a angry young man, and took the lost badly. I would like to point out, he behaved the same after the last election, and is still sulking. Still throwing his weight around. Still acting like a thug.

  291. I would like to point out, he behaved the same after the last election, and is still sulking. Still throwing his weight around. Still acting like a thug.
    ————
    Indeed Cu,
    Abbott demonstrates a distinct pattern of behaviour that is troubling…imagine a PM willing to throw a hissy fit and do just about anything to get his way – even against those who differ on his own side.

    I find PM Gillard a calm character…sure she gets a bit fed up with Abbott’s antics in parliament…but generally her demeanour is calm, quietly determined, respectful, with the odd bit of wit and a hug or chat for the people.

    She goes about negotiating and her job with quiet dignity. And once in a while courageously stands up…or by radio/tv interview…sells her policies/plans…and with dignity and boldness sweeps away the ravings and abuse of others.

    Give me that approach…that evolution…anyday over Abbott’s negabore antics, weathervane opinion, parliamentary rants, mask of faux sincerity and nudge nudge wink wink approach to extremist nutbags on his side of politics.

    N’

  292. I’m confused over the Denialati.

    Elsewhere, they complain about being banned, and stick their little booties in. Yet here they are, denying that, along with other inconvenient truths

    Weird ❓

  293. Iain and,

    Abbott will be better for us because he will not be driven by the failed ideology of the left, by the religiosity of the AGW orthodoxy..

    I wonder who this “us” might be..

    I also wonder why it could be considered that the ideology of the left has failed when it is the nations who have proceeded with uber capitalism who are rapidly becoming/have become failed states.

  294. just did dome slumming again, found this ditty “Oh I have been fighting the good fight a bit in Latte land”

    from anyone we no

  295. Tom el gordo is not being completely honest about being banned from Deltoid. Being disruptive and throwing in many what some would call trolling posts, Deltoid gave a personal thread to el gordo to post and say whatever el gordo liked, and anyone could come along and debate in that thread.

    This way the open and scientific debate could be carried out elsewhere whilst those who wanted to debate or support el gordo could do so. Of el gordo’s own volition El gordo left Deltoid after a short time.

  296. the visitor said this “all an alternative PM has to do is not make grand sounding announcements that are composed of wishes and what ifs”

    No the opposition only make aspirations of what they are going to do, which sounds to me like core and non core promises again.

  297. The visitor states that he knows of the NBN but will not offer as to why the Coalitions policy would be better other than to say. “Well that is the promise of the NBN but Labor don’t have much of a record for its promises turning out as expected”

    What type of answer is that. RUBBISH

  298. The most accurate description of the situation is that global warming has stopped, even as CO2 continues to rise.

    But more importantly, on the political science, fracking and economic recession in the US has reduced their CO2 output back to 1992 levels and without a tax.

    The same will be repeated in China, they have reportedly got the largest fracking potential in the world, this should impact our coal and natural gas exports to the celestial kingdom.

    Germany is building 18 new coal fired power stations, state of the art and easily converted to gas. In the UK a debate is raging about wind farms, medieval and unhealthy monstrosities.

  299. Actually ME, grodo was claiming over at DT that he/she/it had been banned from here

    Migs, I’ll take the drink. I’ll need it to charge me up for Friday night. 😉

    But, I just gotta say, Sydney were awesome. That is how you play a finals game.

  300. “The most accurate description of the situation is that global warming has stopped, even as CO2 continues to rise.”

    Why do you do that el gordo, post discredited stuff that you’ve posted several times before, here and elsewhere, and that we’ve shown with links and sources to be false?

    Yet here you are posting the same nonsense again.

    And again you will just ignore the contention or challenge, change tact or topic whilst going off into another discredited tangent you’ve raised and had shot down many times before.

    If you make the assertion, prove it with credited and agreed to by a decent consensus of scientists and bodies in the field, otherwise you are doing what you’ve always done and for the reason you’ve always done it.

  301. No use giving credible links and sources pterosaur, el gordo will most likely just ignore them and keep on making the same discredited assertion with no evidence to back it up or begrudgingly will link to some right wing think tank, paid for PR speaker or vested interest denialist source.

    el gordo has been given that and many other sources to show the wrongness of the contention made, but they are always ignored and the subject changed.

  302. China is now the world leader in alternative fuel sources having taken over from the US a few years ago…hence the reason our scientists now head to Beijing for conferences which once were held in Boston. Germany is also investing heavily, with our scientists working with both countries.

  303. CHRISTOPHER JOYE
    The man most likely to be Australia’s next treasurer, Joe Hockey, is also its most misunderstood politician.
    It’s widely accepted that Hockey is one of Parliament’s most effortless performers. He possesses a Clintonesque capacity to connect with the community. Ask any Liberal who they want with them in a campaign, and Hockey’s the first pick. Journalists who travel with him relay stories of being mobbed at gigs.
    Yet this laconic hulk of a man, who was fathered by a Palestinian orphan, is chronically underestimated by Australia’s elites. The lazy caricature confuses his physical and psychological traits. That Joe is soft and indolent…………..

    http://afr.com/f/free/blogs/christopher_joye/is_joe_hockey_australia_most_misunderstood_KE3Jop9YGeK9xeyEPnR03M

  304. At least our visitor has made a few comments that one can reply to. It was like drawing teeth to get to this stage.

    Anyone up to dissecting his comments. I, for one, am not that interested. Nothing there that we have not already reputed on many, many occasions.

    I only say this, so those who scroll past might like to take a look.

    I suspect it will be all we will get.

  305. “economic recession in the US has reduced their CO2 output back to 1992 levels and without a tax.”

    Some truth in this. What happens when industry picks up again. I am sure the rates will rise. I assume they used less oil too. The traffic on the roads would have been lighter.

    That argument is indeed drawing a long bow. How desperate can one get.

    Same occurred in Europe.

    Yes the GFC has given us a little more time.

  306. Mo,

    No use giving credible links and sources

    well i know it, i just like breaking lies 😈 and others may benefit from the links, too 😀

    reality holds all the winning cards too 😆

  307. ‘What happens when industry picks up again.’

    By then the world will be on fracking gas, a lot more economic than converting coal to gas.

  308. ‘grodo was claiming over at DT that he/she/it had been banned from here’

    It was self banning, but I stood with my bruvvers who have been banned. Now I’m back (after taking the CC cure in a Dickensian cell) freelancing on other portfolios which may have potential in the ‘new media’.

  309. Gas still emits carbon. Admittedly less. What happens when the gas runs out.

    Not all have access to it. I believe Obama is looking at keeping theirs for their own industry.

    Gas at the best, is another stop gap measure.

    I believe that ten percent of world electricity is now generated from no fossil fuel.

    There are many, solar, wind, ocean and thermal for starters. Expensive to put in place but cheap to maintain and run.

    Yes, they do meet base loads. It is spreading lies to say they do not.

  310. Why are we going down this track again. Even Abbott says he believes in the science. The Greens do. The denialists seem to have little or no political support.

  311. Was slumming again, this what our visitor thinks of climate change.

    As I have been saying for ages if the response to AGW can not be made to happen at a truly global level then any efforts from a minority of the global emitters is at best pointless and futile.At worst it will be an expensive exercise in climate piety that is of no value what so ever. There is only one answer to the AGW question that is to do nothing, wait and see if any of the dire prognostications come to pass and if they do then we deal with each problem as it actually presents itself rather than spending huge amounts of effort and treasure trying to forestall things that may never happen.

  312. Catching up @ 9:57 am

    Visitor, if the cap fits wear it

    apropos of what precisely inspires you to say this?

    Yes, there are none so blind that refuses to see. Do you ever look in a mirror. If one does not agree with you, they are wrong, blind and stupid.

    I don’t expect a whole mess of road to Damascus moments at the Cafe CU and I don’t need that kind of affirmation either.

    Sorry I do not buy your explanation. I believe you are projecting your own personality onto me.

    No I just call it as I see it

    Prove where I have given false information or facts.

    About what in particular

    Why is it so important that I have to agree with you. My opinions are as creditable as yours. Sometimes I believe more so.

    Well its good that you have such faith in yourself but that does not make you correct or more credible.

    Do you realise that this so called debate is going around in circles. Why you keep up with the criticism is beyond me. It is OK not to agree. Why keep kicking a dead and stinking horse.

    seeing yourself as ” a dead and stinking horse.”surely has to qualify as and example of poor self esteem or a horribly chosen metaphor

    Where are all those who think I am wrong, coming to your defence.

    Do I need defending?

    Please those who agree with the visitor I am wrong, side with him. It is lonely to keep up a argument, when none seem to agree.

    If I needed that sort of affirmation then I could go elsewhere.

    I am very happy to live and let live. Maybe you should try the same. Give up re-educating us, we are a lost cause as far as you are concerned.

    The steeper the climb the sweeter the summit CU 😉
    Catching up @ 9:58 am

    Visitor, note, I do not say you are wrong. I do not say your are stupid. I say, I disagree. Carnot you get that.

    Right back at you CU !

    Catching up @ 10:02 am

    “Abbott will be better for us because he will not be driven by the failed ideology of the left, by the religiosity of the AGW orthodoxy and he believes in governments living within their means rather than creating an ever growing debt buying tack that has no benefit to the nation. ”

    No, he will be driven by the ideology of Santamaria and the long dead DLP.

    Better the DLP than the ethically challenged ALP any day!

    Tom R @ 10:09 am

    by the religiosity of the AGW orthodoxy

    lol. You mean the guy who who tried to stop the morning after pill on his religious beliefs ROFL

    Tom mate you betray your ideological blinkers with this silly claim.

    believes in governments living within their means

    You mean the guy who was a member of a Government who steered the nations treasury into a structural deficit 😯

    that is bollocks

    Really, you normally have to pay for this standard of comedy 😆

    Glad to brighten your day Tom.

  313. From your link ME
    The federal Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, has urged his NSW MPs to lobby members of the O’Farrell government to dump plans to cut tens of millions of dollars in funding from Catholic and independent schools.

    Does that mean he isn’t lobbying them about thire plans to cut funding from Government schools as well?

  314. The visitor has out done himself in twisting what one says. The dead and stinking horse. is his campaign to bring us to his way of thinking.

    Can never see that happening.

    The visitor just does not get it.

  315. No el gordo you are wrong again.

    The polls, especially in the light of the latest climate data and world wide instability in climate, are showing more believe AGW is a fact.

    And the polls of the masses are useless unless the masses have their head around every bit of the science, which is impossible. If they did there would be a 100% support for it no matter how much the right wing groups tried to sully the matter.

    As to using discredited wind farm crap, that has been proven to be bogus, started by a crusade of one woman by the way, well that shows you have nothing and never did.

    Also note people the wind farm bit is a distraction, a favoured ploy of el gordo’s.

    The subject was on one thing, the asked what the person’s current stance is as it changes so often, the topic was side stepped. The stance apparently now is that the warming has stopped, but hang on, this person said that CO² was a harmless trace gas, so how could the planet have been previously warming for it to stop?

    You see the problem. All over the shop, with the planet freezing, then warming but not man made, then the gas being harmless but harmful and it goes on.

    Then a distraction, in comes wind farms with an old discredited claim. Note no links or sources to the claims of global warming stopping as in the original assertion, but one to the distraction of wind farms.

    Back again, but exactly the same crap all over again.

  316. ……….The more the Coalition pretends that it left the budget battle-ready for the global recession, the more it plays into Labor’s hands. Every new government craves the narrative of the black hole, and Wayne Swan has a credible story to tell on the structure of the budget – up to a point.

    The Treasurer is correct when he says the dramatic plunge into deficit wasn’t his doing. It remains primarily the fault of the global recession and the former government.

    This can be seen with a simple calculation. Let’s assume Labor didn’t spend a dollar since the world economy turned turtle. That is, it did what the Opposition seems to have been demanding, by keeping fiscal policy tighter in recession than it had been under the Coalition in the boom.

    Take out the stimulus, in fact all new spending since last May’s budget, and you get a run of whopping deficits that linger well after the economy is supposed to be growing again. This is where common sense must kick in for the Coalition and the structural deficit moves from the realms of theory to a statement of the obvious.

    A stimulus-free budget would have faced deficits of $25.6 billion in 2009-10, $38.4billion in 2010-11 and $31.3 billion in 2011-12. That was, in effect, the Costello trajectory. It would have been worse, of course, because no spending would have made the recession deeper and crunched revenues by even more.

    How exactly did the Howard-Costello government prepare the nation for what came next when it left behind a budget that could not afford to spend in bad times without breaking all previous deficit records?

    The Coalition must cut the cord with its past if it wants to argue with credibility on fiscal prudence. The Opposition Leader could do worse than give Howard and Costello a public dressing-down for leaving the budget vulnerable to shocks such as the one we are going through at the moment.

    It would make his case against Labor more credible because it would resonate with members of the public who happen to believe that the previous government did waste the proceeds of the boom.

    Here’s……..

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/coalition-faces-a-ruinous-record/story-e6frg7ex-1225712757155

  317. Tom, did you know that only five of the Crow’s 17 wins were against sides that finished in the top 8?

    Pretenders. Chokers.

    Loving it. 😀

  318. Cu, from your link to the OO,

    The Coalition must cut the cord with its past if it wants to argue with credibility on fiscal prudence. The Opposition Leader could do worse than give Howard and Costello a public dressing-down for leaving the budget vulnerable to shocks such as the one we are going through at the moment.

    Record household debt and record housing unaffordability are not the things which any country would want to take them into a recession. The Liberals would spend less, sack more and therefore add to the problem, all the while allowing their fat cat mates to reap record profits .

  319. In a speech yesterday to a lunch held by the Committee for the Economic Development of Australia, Young claimed that the Coalition’s policy of delivering NBN cost savings by using fibre to the node technology wouldn’t necessarily save money, and wouldn’t actually meet the objective of structurally separating Telstra either.

    “… the prospective cost savings of fibre to the node depend on what time frame you look at,” he said. “Maintaining the copper that connects node to premise is expensive. Coping with legacy IT is expensive. The total system cost of fibre to the node is higher than its front-end cost. The same is true of fibre to the premise, but less so. The apparent cost advantage of fibre to the node decreases as you lengthen the time frame you look at. In the long run, as Keynes famously said, we are all dead. Estimating costs is an engineering problem. Deciding on the relevant time frame is a policy question.”

    Most media outlets which reported Young’s speech yesterday chose to focus directly on the cost issue as it was the most controversial aspect of the speech, and Young’s comments ran against traditional thinking in the telecommunications industry. Up until now, most telecommunications industry commentators have consistently stated that FTTN-based broadband deployments would in general soak up less costs in general than similar FTTH-based builds, although some have highlighted a potential higher long-term maintenance cost associated with the copper portions of a FTTN network…
    http://delimiter.com.au/2012/09/11/turnbull-ignores-fttn-cost-issue/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Delimiter+%28Delimiter%29

    news NBN Co chairman Harrison Young gave a landmark speech in Sydney yesterday claiming that the Coalition’s policy of delivering NBN cost savings by using fibre to the node technology wouldn’t necessarily save money, and wouldn’t actually meet the objective of structurally separating Telstra either.

    The Federal Government’s NBN project currently focuses on a so-called fibre to the home rollout style, which will see Telstra’s copper network decommissioned and fibre deployed all the way to homes and business premises. However, the Coalition has proposed to acquire portions of Telstra’s copper network and deploy fibre only part of the way to premises. This is a style which is popular in some countries internationally, such as the United Kingdom.

    In a speech yester…

    http://delimiter.com.au/2012/09/11/fttn-could-cost-more-says-nbn-chairman/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Delimiter+%28Delimiter%29

  320. Myth: Wind farms are dangerous to human health

    Fact: Wind energy is a benign technology with no associated emissions, harmful pollutants or waste products.

    In over 25 years and with thousands of turbines installed around the world, no member of the public has ever been harmed by the normal operation of wind turbines. In response to unscientific accusations that wind turbines emit infrasound and cause associated health problems, Dr Geoff Leventhall, Consultant in Noise Vibration and Acoustics and author of the Government Report on Low Frequency Noise and its Effects, has said: “I can state quite categorically that there is no significant infrasound from current designs of wind turbines. To say that there is an infrasound problem is one of the hares which objectors to wind farms like to run. There will not be any effects from infrasound from the turbines.”

    So-called ‘Wind Turbine Syndrome’ has also recently been debunked by researchers in the United States. Health and engineering experts commissioned by the Massachusetts Departments of Environmental Protection and Public Health concluded in January 2012 that health-related claims from wind power opponents were unsubstantiated. It backs up a previous study in Ontario, Canada, which found no link between wind turbine noise and health.

    Strange thing about the claims of ill health from wind turbines, all started by one woman by the way who goes around the world telling people what symptoms they have, is that a German study found that the supposed illness caused by them was directly related to whether or not you were getting paid to have turbines on your property or were benefiting from them in some way.

    So a farmer and family who had turbines on their property had no medical problems at all, but the neighbour and family whose property wasn’t suitable for turbines and who saw the neighbour making money out of them had all sorts of medical problems, and they happened to be ones told to them by a certain woman.

    The same went for whole towns. A town that endorsed wind farms and got reduced cost power from them was perfectly healthy and happy, but the town down the road who was against them from the start, initially spurned on by a anti-turbine campaign from outside the town, had all sorts of medical problems.

    The other problem is that the supposed negative health effects are not the same and widely vary. If the cause is the same then the effects should be similar, but they aren’t, they fluctuate wildly.

    Anyway having been suitably distracted I will now await the next unoriginal distraction bought up.

  321. And the distractions just keep coming, and the change in stance. I forgot about the debunked solar cause one championed by el gordo before then dropped for something else but apparently now back in vogue.

    el gordo’s latest stance is always whatever link can be found that seems to support the contention that there is no AGW, whether that says there is warming that’s not anthropogenic or freezing. Not matter what the contention, how wild or how many times it’s been debunked el gordo will keep trotting it out.

    It has become tiresome.

  322. ……….However, many commentators consider it to be misleading for Turnbull to focus only on the cost of the FTTH NBN build alone, and not its return. The cost of building the NBN is not an expense as generally understood, but is actually an investment expected to generate (according to NBN Co’s corporate plan) a modest return of 7.1 percent on the Government’s investment, over the period through to 2030.

    In comparison, there is currently no publicly available evidence that Turnbull is correct in his ongoing claims that the Coalition’s rival NBN policy would save the Federal Government billions of dollars in investment when it comes to its funding of the NBN project. For the Coalition’s rival FTTN plan to save the Government money, it would either need to make similar revenues as the existing FTTH plan, but with lower costs, or make higher revenues than the current FTTH-based NBN plan.

    The Coalition has not yet released the monetary details of its own rival NBN policy, although Turnbull stated recently that the policy had been costed. An analysis by Citigroup published in November found that the Coalition’s policy would cost $16.7 billion. The Citigroup report didn’t mention what financial return, if any, the Coalition’s proposal was slated to bring in on its own investment.

    Turnbull’s comments do not reflect the first time that the Coalition has referred to the inaccurate possibility of saving government money by cutting or substantially modifying the NBN project. In February, for example, opposition Leader Tony Abbott stated in a high-profile speech at the National Press Club in Canberra that cutting Labor’s National Broadband Network project would free up Federal Government money to be spent in other areas such as transport….

    http://delimiter.com.au/2012/09/11/turnbull-ignores-fttn-cost-issue/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Delimiter+%28Delimiter%29

  323. Our visitor has contradicted himself on Climate Change just from this little Quote

    As I have said before I am not fond of the coalition’s direct action policy that much either but its a little bit better that Labor’s scheme

    So our visitor is saying something needs to be done on climate change, it does not matter who’s policy it is.

  324. Cu, this what I want our visitor to debate as well, but he has not done so, kept coming up with the excuse he does not understand what FTTN or FTTP means, as I told him to look it up, but he is being lazy.

  325. Loving it.

    Me too Migs. And, I must thank the Crows for looking after their supporters and allowing them a game every week 😉

  326. Paul from Your citation

    Will the new agreement really be legally binding?

    A last-minute compromise at Durban meant the new phase of negotiations about to start should be “a protocol, a legal instrument or an agreed outcome with legal force”. The latter is the weakest option, but according to the EU it will effectively mean countries are legally bound.

    In other words the outcome will be nothing more than impotent spin.

    Will this deal stop climate change?

    No. What was discussed at Durban were the principles on which future negotiations will be based. There was no discussion of how far and how fast countries should be cutting their carbon dioxide.

    So in even the “best possible outcome (from a Warminista viewpoint)this gab-fest will achieve nothing.

    Isn’t that worrying?

    Yes – emissions have risen by nearly 50% in the past 20 years, and they are still going up. With every year of increase, we have much less chance of keeping global temperature rises to less than 2C – beyond which scientists say climate change becomes catastrophic and irreversible.

    So even though no agreement is going to happen the best that we get is the usual end of the world millenarian predictions

    Governments will begin negotiations on what the new climate agreement should look like. According to the “Durban platform”, these must wrap
    up in 2015 with a legal document ready to be signed. Governments will then have five years to ratify it.

    It just won’t happen no one has any real interest it playing this game any more

    What can go wrong?

    Everything. This is a delicate process, as powerful national and vested interests are involved, and it has taken 20 years to get this far. Countries deciding how far and how fast to cut emissions was one of the hardest part of the process leading up to the Copenhagen summit in 2009, and the pledges declared there were inadequate to the scale of the climate challenge, according to scientists. Although the US has signed up, for instance, there is no guarantee that if a Republican president were elected next year, he or she would not rip up this agreement and refuse to negotiate.

    So as I have said if the so called international efforts to address the issue are bound to fail (which they are) then why should we waste treasure and effort on something so pointless and futile? I’m all for our government spending on things that will work but I draw the line at pointless posturing and pretending that an expensive response (like the carbon tax)will make any difference. To be honest if you really care about “responding to climate change” then you have to want “bang for your buck” rather than just empty symbolism. There is a lot of wisdom from Bjorn Lomborg:

  327. Paul, but he knows it is bad. From where I am sitting, Turnbull is getting himself in a tangle. he does not believe that the maintenance of crapped out copper wire matters.

    He has now invested in two similar overseas schemes.

  328. Visitor this quote from the article What happened in Durban?

    For the first time, world governments committed themselves to write a comprehensive global agreement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, covering developed and developing countries, to come into force in 2020. Haven’t we had climate change agreements before?

    Yes, going back to 1992, but never like this. The 1997 Kyoto protocol is the world’s only existing treaty stipulating cuts in greenhouse gas emissions, but the cuts only apply to developed countries and the US has never joined in. The current Kyoto targets expire next year, and only the EU among major developed countries has agreed to a continuation of them afterwards – Japan, Russia and Canada have all dropped out. Accords were also struck in 2009 and 2010 at Copenhagen and Cancun respectively, by which most countries and all of the biggest economies set out national targets on emissions curbs up to 2020. But these are voluntary, not legally binding.

    Why is a legally binding treaty important?

    An international treaty is far harder for future politicians to wriggle out of than commitments at a national level. They are not impossible to renege on – witness the failure of several Kyoto participants, such as Canada, to meet their targets – but they give an additional level of security which is important for investors looking to pour money into greening the economy

    Does not this mean Governments around the world are committed to making a change against climate change.

  329. “but its a little bit better that Labor’s scheme”

    No expert seems to agree. Abbott’s scheme is seen as expensive, putting the cost onto taxpayers, and based on unproven technology.

    It is also impractical, as one would have to plant a area the size of Tasmania with trees, to get any effect at all. Pry, tell me where we have all this land to do this. Trees do not grow in deserts.

    Soil sequestration. Unproven.

    No, just one of Abbott’s fart’s or pipe dreams.

  330. Also from the article, the coalition have not stated that the Telstra agreement becomes null and void, so there fore a new agreement has to be drawn up between them.

    The Federal Government’s NBN project currently focuses on a so-called fibre to the home rollout style, which will see Telstra’s copper network decommissioned and fibre deployed all the way to homes and business premises. However, the Coalition has proposed to acquire portions of Telstra’s copper network and deploy fibre only part of the way to premises. This is a style which is popular in some countries internationally, such as the United Kingdom.

    In a speech yesterday to a lunch held by the Committee for the Economic Development of Australia, Young claimed that the Coalition’s policy of delivering NBN cost savings by using fibre to the node technology wouldn’t necessarily save money, and wouldn’t actually meet the objective of structurally separating Telstra either.

    … the prospective cost savings of fibre to the node depend on what time frame you look at,” he said. “Maintaining the copper that connects node to premise is expensive. Coping with legacy IT is expensive. The total system cost of fibre to the node is higher than its front-end cost. The same is true of fibre to the premise, but less so. The apparent cost advantage of fibre to the node decreases as you lengthen the time frame you look at. In the long run, as Keynes famously said, we are all dead. Estimating costs is an engineering problem. Deciding on the relevant time frame is a policy question.”

  331. Even Obama in his latest speech acknowledged that there is still much to be done. Yes, the Republicans have ignored it altogether, but does that surprise one.

    Most countries are going ahead with plans to cut carbon emission. Not necessary on a national level, but definitely on state basis. This includes the USA and Canada.

    I believe that 10% of the world energy production is now by renewal energy. It is a growing industry.

    So now Bolt is the expert we need to heed. The man that has most of his statements shot down regularly in flames.

    Need to do better than that.

    What is wrong in looking to the scientist in the field. Oh, I forgot, 90 odd percent agree that there is man made CC. Cannot quote them.

    If I want a broken arm set, I do not seek out a plumber.

    No one, and I mean no one is going down the proposed track of Abbott.

    Then Abbott like most of his supporters do not look to experts in any field in for advice.

    He, and it appears those follow him, know better.

  332. We’re still not seeing much of Tony Abbott.

    This is a good thing.

    He has ran away leaving Pyne to jump to his defense over the wall-punching story.

  333. Again on CC, a link from our visitor.

    Fifty-five countries pledge to cut greenhouse emissions. http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/feb/02/55-countries-greenhouse-emissions-pledge

    At the UN climate summit in Copenhagen last year, all countries were asked to register their intentions to support the Copenhagen accord by 31 January. However, the deadline was relaxed last month when it became apparent that many of the world’s poorest countries were reluctant to sign up to the political accord without better understanding of its legal implications or stronger financial assurances. The UN now says the deadline is flexible, possibly allowing countries to submit their plans until next December.

    Many senior figures around the world contacted by the Guardian believe that a legally binding deal in 2010 is now impossible.

    Examination of the pledges shows that no countries have strengthened the commitments which they announced at Copenhagen, despite worldwide condemnation of the lack of ambition shown by world leaders in Denmark. Several rich countries have added clauses which could allow them to reduce emissions later.

    The US, which had pledged 17% cuts on a 2005 baseline by 2020 now says it will cut “in the range of 17%, in conformity with anticipated US energy and climate legislation, recognising that the final target will be reported to the Secretariat in light of enacted legislation”. Canada, too, has amended its Copenhagen target of 17% to make it align “with the final economy-wide emissions target of the US in enacted legislation”.

    Ed Miliband, UK energy and climate secretary, said the figures were “significant”. “If countries, including the EU, implement their commitments to the maximum levels we will be in striking distance of ensuring that global emissions peak by 2020. This is a crucial first step to keeping temperature rises to no more than two degrees.”

    So our visitor again has linked to a site which says governments around the world are taking action on CC.

  334. OK el gordo, what if our climate change is driven by the sun. Should we not be looking at ways to minimise the impact this will have on us?

    Do you stand in the rain? Do you take cover from a blazing sun? Do you put on extra clothing when it’s cold?

    Of course you do.

    We find ways of protecting ourselves from Mother Nature when she provides us with a hostile environment. She is doing it again.

    Big time.

  335. If the recent climate change really was driven by the sun Migs, then the argument would be that it is C02 driving it.

    You don’t appear to be catching on to how the denialati operate 😉

  336. Does not this mean Governments around the world are committed to making a change against climate change.

    This was meant to say ” The governments around the world are committed to taking a stand on climate change”

  337. I assume it is the speaker that glare is aimed at.

    It appears that all that it is alleged attacks by Mr. Abbott, have been on women, except for Mr. Hockey.

  338. So the visitor said

    It just won’t happen no one has any real interest it playing this game any more

    So climate change is just a game for you is it. not taking it seriously, then why are Governments around the world taking action on climate change.

  339. …then why are Governments around the world taking action on climate change.

    Not just governments but many big businesses around the world as well.

    Then there are government intelligence agencies and defence departments, all planning for the globe warming.

    Many governments, businesses and organisations have nothing to gain by taking action against climate change, many will actually lose in doing so, yet they are taking action.

    Why would that be?

    (stand by for conspiracy theories and references to religion)

  340. So our What ever he is now, comes in here trying to convince us that Climate change is not happening, he posts links to site that climate change is happening and Governments around the world are doing something about it and still says it will not work, even though the evidence is against him overwhelming.

    He himself has also stated

    As I have been saying for ages if the response to AGW can not be made to happen at a truly global level then any efforts from a minority of the global emitters is at best pointless and futile.At worst it will be an expensive exercise in climate piety that is of no value what so ever. There is only one answer to the AGW question that is to do nothing, wait and see if any of the dire prognostications come to pass and if they do then we deal with each problem as it actually presents itself rather than spending huge amounts of effort and treasure trying to forestall things that may never happen.

    As I have said before I am not fond of the coalition’s direct action policy that much either but its a little bit better that Labor’s scheme

    So in these two paragraphs he contradicts himself, he is against climate change but wants something done about it.

    He is getting confused about what he is saying.

  341. Education spending in NSW will be slashed by $1.7 billion with independent schools expected to share the pain with the public system.
    Premier Barry O’Farrell has described the cuts as “difficult but necessary”.
    The Education Minister, Adrian Piccoli, said he would cap per capita funding for independent schools at the current level, which will save the government $116 million over four years. Public schools would lose $201 million from their budgets.

    TAFE cuts … NSW Education Minister Adrian Piccoli in a file picture. Photo: Quentin Jones
    “It will not be capped forever and the cap won’t come into affect until the first of July 2013,” Mr Piccoli said.

    “The intention of these changes is that the impact on non-government schools is the same as government schools of around 3 per cent.”
    The government sector would be expected to shed 600 staff in state and regional offices over four years – as part of a total cut of 1800 from the Department of Educatio

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/nsw-to-slash-17b-from-education-funding-20120911-25ps9.html#ixzz269CCHTLf

  342. Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has told coalition colleagues they need to improve the way they handle their differences over foreign investment.

    An internal debate has erupted over the Labor government’s decision to allow massive Queensland cotton property Cubbie Station to be sold to a foreign consortium.

    Mr Abbott told a coalition joint party room meeting on Tuesday that Liberal and Nationals MPs need to show voters that they were ‘the adults in the room’.

    While it was okay to have different views, the challenge was to handle those different views in the right way, he said.

    Mr Abbott said……….
    http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Politics/2012/09/11/Abbott_in_support_of_foreign_investment_793929.html

  343. So the coalition are arguing among themselves, get nothing right with foot in mouth disease, so Julie Bishop brings up leadership speculation again.

  344. Paul, maybe he is right in not getting into reasons or facts.

    That takes more work. More comprehension of what one is talking about.

    Maybe we are asking too much of our visitor.

  345. I actually think he does not do research, just copy and paste from articles and pastes the links, does not read them, a quick glance at the article, yep that will do.

  346. Maybe that is why he comes to the conclusion, that we are always wrong. What we say, does not fit in with the false perceptions that are aboard. It is obvious, I believe that this is were he forms most of his opinions.

    You know, the PM is a liar. CC is wrong. The BER scheme was all waste. No computers delivered. Insulation a failure. The list goes on and on. Problem is, these public perceptions do not stand up to scrutiny.

    The PM delivers nothing. and and ………………..

    A little more dissecting of where he gets his opinions from would be more productive for him, than wasting his time, criticising everything we say.

    Generalisation and throw away lines, can get one into trouble.

  347. Iain is getting confused as to what is taught at schools, If he thinks that the green religion is the teaching of students to look after the environment as against polluting and not fixing the problem, he has a lot to learn.

    I have children in school Paul so that means that I have a better understanding of what they are being taught than you do

    Now visitor, you do not know what I do for a living, I may have children or I may not, But I have a good Idea as to what is being taught in our schools. So the impression I get from that little quote

    I have children in school Paul so that means that I have a better understanding of what they are being taught than you do

    is that you think you are better than me.

  348. Paul @ 4:02 pm

    Visitor this quote from the article What happened in Durban?

    For the first time, world governments committed themselves to write a comprehensive global agreement to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, covering developed and developing countries, to come into force in 2020. Haven’t we had climate change agreements before?

    Yes, going back to 1992, but never like this. The 1997 Kyoto protocol is the world’s only existing treaty stipulating cuts in greenhouse gas emissions, but the cuts only apply to developed countries and the US has never joined in. The current Kyoto targets expire next year, and only the EU among major developed countries has agreed to a continuation of them afterwards – Japan, Russia and Canada have all dropped out. Accords were also struck in 2009 and 2010 at Copenhagen and Cancun respectively, by which most countries and all of the biggest economies set out national targets on emissions curbs up to 2020. But these are voluntary, not legally binding.

    This is entirely meaningless its an agreement to try to agree and given the usual competing agendas it will amount to nothing.

    Why is a legally binding treaty important?

    An international treaty is far harder for future politicians to wriggle out of than commitments at a national level. They are not impossible to renege on – witness the failure of several Kyoto participants, such as Canada, to meet their targets – but they give an additional level of security which is important for investors looking to pour money into greening the economy

    Which is an admission that the “legally binding” claim is hollow at best because national g9overnemnts can certainly repudiate them at any time.

    Does not this mean Governments around the world are committed to making a change against climate change.

    Certainly not all it proves is taht many are willing to pay lip-service to the noption but in real terms they will do nothing.
    Catching up 2012 @ 4:04 pm

    “but its a little bit better that Labor’s scheme”

    No expert seems to agree. Abbott’s scheme is seen as expensive, putting the cost onto taxpayers, and based on unproven technology.

    It is also impractical, as one would have to plant a area the size of Tasmania with trees, to get any effect at all. Pry, tell me where we have all this land to do this. Trees do not grow in deserts.

    Soil sequestration. Unproven.

    Well I’m looking at it and I see that even if the AGW proposition is definitively proven to be a sham we get something of value for the investment in the coalition scheme, either in the form of improved soil quality or more trees ect what would we have top show from the carbon tax?

    Paul @ 4:25 pm

    Again on CC, a link from our visitor.

    So our visitor again has linked to a site which says governments around the world are taking action on CC.

    Read you quote again Paul its says that they have made pious promises but the experience has been that such targets are seldom met

    paulwello @ 4:37 pm

    Does not this mean Governments around the world are committed to making a change against climate change.

    This was meant to say ” The governments around the world are committed to taking a stand on climate change”

    You still don’t understand the difference between promises and actual action now do you Paul?

    paulwello @ 6:32 pm

    So the visitor said

    It just won’t happen no one has any real interest it playing this game any more

    So climate change is just a game for you is it. not taking it seriously, then why are Governments around the world taking action on climate change.

    What makes you think that games are thing not taken seriously Paul?

  349. The truth is there is plenty going on in both Canada and the USA. Maybe not at a Federal level, but definitely at a state level.

    We are not out there alone, we are in the middle.

    Visitor is back at making generalise statements, as if they present the truth. Saying something just does not make it true.

    As for schools, I now have no children there, but believe me I know what they are teaching.

    I am amazed at what is now taught in kindy. Yes, I have close contact with many schools. Public and private. I have numerous grand kids. I take a great interest in their education.

    We hear the Opposition get up each day, claiming that schools have bigger power bills. Funny, last week I visited a school and was amazed at the solar panels on the roofs. Took interest on the way home. You know, it is now normal for schools to have panels. That would mean that this government has funded this phenomenon, preparing for the rises in electricity, that were coming.

    As I said, one has to be very careful when they take their clues from the Opposition. Things are rarely as they seem.

  350. The visitor forgot to put this bit in

    Will the new agreement really be legally binding?

    A last-minute compromise at Durban meant the new phase of negotiations about to start should be “a protocol, a legal instrument or an agreed outcome with legal force”. The latter is the weakest option, but according to the EU it will effectively mean countries are legally bound.

    Will this deal stop climate change?

    No. What was discussed at Durban were the principles on which future negotiations will be based. There was no discussion of how far and how fast countries should be cutting their carbon dioxide.

    Isn’t that worrying?

    Yes – emissions have risen by nearly 50% in the past 20 years, and they are still going up. With every year of increase, we have much less chance of keeping global temperature rises to less than 2C – beyond which scientists say climate change becomes catastrophic and irreversible.

    So what happens next?

    Governments will begin negotiations on what the new climate agreement should look like. According to the “Durban platform”, these must wrap up in 2015 with a legal document ready to be signed. Governments will then have five years to ratify it.

    From my understanding The Durban platform is a new agreement on climate change that governments around the world should agree to, other wise Emissions will rise by nearly 50% and temps to rise as well. But you do not want this to happen and let the world take care of itself.

    If these talks do not happen the situation just gets worse, with the governments talking and implementing policies to deal with climate change, action is being taken.

    You still don’t understand the difference between promises and actual action now do you Paul?

    I do visitor.

  351. Busy, twisting everything we say on this site, to fit in with his agenda.

    Whether countries have signed accords or not, I am not too sure. That does not seem them from taking steps on their own behalf.

    So much effort, for so little sense or results.

  352. As long as countries around the world take action against CC, then something is being done, and not just countries, companies as well.

    The thing is I cannot work out what is agenda is now, one minute he is against CC, then he is quoting from sites that are for CC

  353. Paul some how, he sees those sites as proving his argument. I believe he has this idea that people say things, but never carry them out. Especially if they are on the left, or in this case CC.

    He often makes comments like that, especially about the PM. Reckons she is all talk,, no action. Problem is the facts do not back his beliefs. Still does not matter to him, as he believes Labor has achieved or done anything.

    Very selective in what he takes on board.

    How he can ignore the economy is one I cannot understand.

  354. It baffles me, Möbius (from the Wilkinson video) how Abbott continually harps on about 4,000 mining jobs (that aren’t even lost jobs) yet remains silent on Newman sacking 14,000 public servants. 😯

  355. Labor has achieved or done anything.

    Well, in his defense, they have wrecked the economy, and in hte process, making it the worlds best.
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    hang on … 😯

  356. http://tinyurl.com/cu5y6w3

    Noddy saying No to everything is not assisting Good Government; nor is it representing the interest of those who voted for the opposition effectively. This is their plan for Australia

    It is not only the PM that gets this treatment. One needs to turn to the Senate, to see what is dished out to Senator Wong.

    These are supposed to be mature men and women. Yes, the women, there leave much to be desired.

  357. ‘Should we not be looking at ways to minimise the impact this will have on us?’

    Natural disasters are part and parcel of living on earth and we have minimised the loss of life through improved technology.

  358. CU I agree with every thing you say, He die-sects every word you say and turns it against you just to prove a point, he does not look at the bigger picture, only what he wants to see. I know already he is going to rip apart the document from the CSIRO and the BOM, just because he wants to.

    When we ask him on how Abbott would be a better PM, no evidence just, has to be better than Gillard. Labor policies are bad but offers nothing to back up his opinions.

    He is getting to a bit of a bore actually, I think the only reason he comes here because no one visits his site, or only his regulars, which of are but two so called followers, if you could call them that.

  359. El gordo re,

    Natural disasters are part and parcel of living on earth and we have minimised the loss of life through improved technology.

    . However, have contributed to the likelihood of natural disasters via neglect…

  360. ‘natural disasters via neglect…’

    A drought in the Sahel could see the deaths of many thousands and the same goes for crop failures in North Korea. Tsunami, volcanic eruptions, earthquakes, hurricanes and freezing winters are all natural disasters if they kill people.

    Freezing winters in Europe, combined with fuel poverty, will kill people prematurely.

  361. Paul maybe we should call it a day, and give up. Maybe I will find that scroll button. as most on this site has. It has indeed become very boring.

  362. Cu.”Paul maybe we should call it a day, and give up. Maybe I will find that scroll button. as most on this site has. It has indeed become very boring”
    … Cu, you have taken the ‘fight’ to ‘them’ time and time again…. you have have been pertinent, factual, topical and so very,very, to the point… you have provided links and explained your reasonings to the point of exaspiration… and still all that is offered to you is some congealed whatcha-ma-call-it, ….. ‘they’ are but distractions… and ‘purposely so ‘….. ignor ‘them’ and continue teaching….. ‘THEY’ arn’t listen’n.. but a few of us are 😉 YOUR BITE IS MUCH BIGGER THAN THIER BARK…. just say’n…. 😀

  363. paulwello @ 7:29 pm

    He actually reads a lot from Bolt, he said it in a post a while back

    Not as much as you think when it comes down to it

    Catching up @ 7:44 pm

    The truth is there is plenty going on in both Canada and the USA. Maybe not at a Federal level, but definitely at a state level.

    Care to quantify that claim CU? because if you did I’m sure that you would come to the same conclusion that I hold , namely most of that so called action is all symbolism and very little substance.

    We are not out there alone, we are in the middle.

    Being in the middle of a bunch of millenarian converts does not make us wise.

    Visitor is back at making generalise(d) statements, as if they present the truth. Saying something just does not make it true.

    No I am usually quite specific

    As for schools, I now have no children there, but believe me I know what they are teaching.

    well I have a child each in primary and secondary school so I KNOW what they are teaching.

    I am amazed at what is now taught in kindy. Yes, I have close contact with many schools. Public and private. I have numerous grand kids. I take a great interest in their education.

    As much as that sounds good your contact with what they are being taught is at best ephemeral and superficial

    We hear the Opposition get up each day, claiming that schools have bigger power bills. Funny, last week I visited a school and was amazed at the solar panels on the roofs. Took interest on the way home. You know, it is now normal for schools to have panels. That would mean that this government has funded this phenomenon, preparing for the rises in electricity, that were coming.

    This speaks more to your ignorance than knowledge. Solar panels are an overall cost to the community because the general tariff for power has risen to compensate power utilities for the cost of buying power and extra infrastructure to support PV installations. Its the poor and those on fixed incomes who are subsidising the largely middle class owners of solar panels. So much for social justice eh???

    As I said, one has to be very careful when they take their clues(sic) from the Opposition. Things are rarely as they seem.

    But you have to be even MORE careful when you take your cues from the Government because you can be CERTAIN that they will not be what you are promised.

    paulwello @ 7:48 pm

    Governments will begin negotiations on what the new climate agreement should look like. According to the “Durban platform”, these must wrap up in 2015 with a legal document ready to be signed. Governments will then have five years to ratify it.

    That is all “aspiration” Paul Its nothing of substance

    From my understanding The Durban platform is a new agreement on climate change that governments around the world should agree to, other wise Emissions will rise by nearly 50% and temps to rise as well. But you do not want this to happen and let the world take care of itself.

    And the chances of a meaningful agreement are what precisely? Further you make the bold claim (in bold above) yet that is not supported by the empirical evidence, just as so many of the dire predictions of the AGW crowd have not been supported by the evidence either.

    If these talks do not happen the situation just gets worse, with the governments talking and implementing policies to deal with climate change, action is being taken.

    Talk is not action Paul, you seem to think that it is

    You still don’t understand the difference between promises and actual action now do you Paul?

    I do visitor.

    No you don’t that is certain.

    Catching up @ 7:48 pm

    Busy, twisting everything we say on this site, to fit in with his agenda.

    I have no agenda CU

    Whether countries have signed accords or not, I am not too sure. That does not seem them from taking steps on their own behalf.

    That is meaningless at best you are relying on blind faith here.

    So much effort, for so little sense or results.

    Which is precisely the way that I see so much of the so called efforts to “combat” “climate change”

    paulwello @ 7:53 pm

    As long as countries around the world take action against CC, then something is being done, and not just countries, companies as well.

    You are asking the wrong questions on this topic Paul, and you are confusing things that wear the “climate change action” label with their actual effectiveness at doing anything substantive to make a difference. The Liturgy of the AGW faith makes some rather stark claims about what needs to be done to “save the planet” I ask you to look at all of the action you are so keen to praise and then tell me if it will be enough to make the necessary (according to the AGW orthodoxy) difference.

    The thing is I cannot work out what is agenda is now, one minute he is against CC, then he is quoting from sites that are for CC

    Why Do I so confuse you Paul? Personally I don’t think that the AGW catastrophe argument has been substantiated, however even if it is valid its not hard to point out that the so called cure can’t be made to happen anyway and that even AGW believers like Lomborg offer some good sense when it comes to how to react to this issue.

  364. What did I say, just gibberish. 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

  365. Iain hasn’t taken much interest in the science, otherwise he would come straight out and say AGW is a hoax….as the denialati is prone to do.

  366. I have enjoy stirring but it has come tedious.

    Today efforts beats all that the visitor has provided up to now.

    A grand mother’s knowledge of educations is only superficial, says it all.

    I will use that scroll button and revert back to what is more interesting, concentrating on the comments of others, that at least make sense.

  367. Nothing seems to count, I am afraid.

    If one wants to be impressed, listen to the interview with the NSW Education minister this morning on ABC radio 702. He should have followed his leaders example and went into hiding. Among the education cuts in NSW are the dismantling of two units, that support teacher training and the introduction of two new curriculum changes. It appears that the intention was for greater cuts. This is an watered down version. God knows what the original proposals. The only ones that seem to have been consulted with, are the Catholic and independents schools. They did mange to get a better deal. The cuts do not start to next July and are capped for four years.

    The problem I believe that in NSW PS there is not much fat to trim.

    Mr. Abbott continues with his lies. Last night he told his party that there has to be a election before next August. This is not true. The deal with the Independents is October or November. The final date under the Constitution is November 31 2013.

  368. I am quite encouraged that schools are using solar panels for better efficiency, it also teaches the student to alternate sources of energy, instead of using fossil fuels which will eventually be depleted in the future.

  369. I heard a rumor that Tony Abbot has imposed a ban on himself to not appear on Lateline, Q & A and the 7.30 report. is this true.

  370. Says it all. Once again, Labor builds, Liberals demolish.

    The Gonski Review has called for huge increases in funding to ensure that the growing equity gap between advantaged and disadvantaged communities is closed.
    The other side of the politics of austerity is the attack on social justice–ie., the redistribution of resources to the poor and disadvantaged –as a form of class warfare and class envy in conservative political discourse. This politics here is to defend private health insurance and private education at independent schools and to wind back the welfare state and to tell the poor to adapt to a transition to a health and education system that involves more personal responsibility and individual contributions.

    http://www.blogotariat.com/node/572372

  371. Did you not read, solar panels are a extra cost to the community. That one I cannot comprehend.

    As for what my kindy GC is learning as being not worth while. Why, half way through the year, on the way to being able to read. Already has a useful number of words, which she can now read and spell. Taught phonics by the way. Also knows what data is, and how to compile a graph. I supposed that is waste of time. Getting a good basis in english and maths, is sure wrong.

    They did not put on a bad concert on a big stage as well. Sport is taken seriously. Any behaviour problem is dealt with seriously. Of course, looking at her work, listening her mother take her through set home work, tells me nothing. Same goes for a couple of older Grand kids. I wish I could say the same for my G grand kids that go to school in a more disadvantage area. The teachers try hard, but the odds are against them. All but one are in the PS at this time. I do not see the one in an expensive Catholic school getting any better education.

    After O’Farrell’s efforts this week, much of the good work will be undone.

    NSW did not do much better on land use proposals yesterday, as well. No wonder, the Premier has gone underground.

  372. Paul, if he has not, it would be prudent for him to do so. They will ask him questions. he cannot afford that. Tony would rather answer his own questions. He only needs to have someone hold the mike. Questions are not required.

  373. Judging by the pics from the other day of TA a PC, he is beginning to ask questions of himself, and answering them as well. Hey isn’t that a sign of madness answering ones own questions.

  374. Answering his own questions is what got him into trouble in those two interviews. I suspect he might not have lied.

    If he does listen to the question, he answers with slogans, regardless of whether the slogans bear any relation to the question.

    He slings slogans together, jumping all over the place. from one topic to another.

    When one listens, he makes no sense.

    This is supposed to be communications. I do not agree.

    ………………………..

    Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.” – Joseph Goebbels

    “Those who are capable of tyranny are capable of perjury to sustain it.” – Lysander Spooner

    “The day we see truth and do not speak is the day we begin to die.” – Martin Luther King

    “Do right and risk the consequences.” – Sam Houston”

    http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=iqnuv6bab&v=001-VufbrhO4aYIOg_cpcp2V1eRPqTeAcWsNe8OKs3qiiue5l7EMFTbJGUbn_SAw8L_NfC9veh9zIKVvlNiteVq5uYJB1mA61wnNhl8LLgLK_2LRVL4CzPwcw%3D%3D

  375. Abbott facing test of tactics

    Michelle Grattan on TA tactics yesterday in Parliament, just show’s how much a grub TA is.

    Abbott was determined to vote himself, which meant some other Liberal would need to be Gillard’s pair. (The pairing system means that when an MP is absent, the numbers are not affected. Pairs are worked out between the sides, and sometimes refused, especially by this opposition.)
    Moylan, an opponent of asylum processing in Nauru, would have abstained, embarrassing the opposition – so she was persuaded to be the one to sit out the vote.
    In other words, the opposition took advantage of the PM’s absence to avoid losing one of its numbers.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/abbott-facing-test-of-tactics-20120911-25qmu.html#ixzz26CwJHgT8

  376. After yesterday encounter with the dark side, I am even more convinced they do not see the big picture, criticising what there children learn at school, schools taking the initiative of installing solar panels to help the children to learn not to rely on fossil fuels, but use the sun as a power generator, then saying this

    Solar panels are an overall cost to the community because the general tariff for power has risen to compensate power utilities for the cost of buying power and extra infrastructure to support PV installations. Its the poor and those on fixed incomes who are subsidising the largely middle class owners of solar panels.

    The more people that start using renewable energy, the less and less we will rely on fossil fuels, thus making it cheaper to use these wonderful new technologies to enhance our wonderful world we live in.

  377. I’m still amazed that tabot went into bat for private schools, but not public.

    Actually, no I’m not.

    I am amazed though that the media have failed to latch onto this

    Actually, no I’m not.

  378. Maybe Moylan should have refused to be paired.

    From above.

    “Do right and risk the consequences.” – Sam Houston”

  379. I ask the same question as Tom.

    Why?

    And please don’t reply with ‘why not?’ or provide a link denying climate change. 🙄

  380. Comprehension is a problem. Reply had no relevance to what I said. Same disease as Abbott. Has a reply prepared for everything. Ignores the question if necessary.

    I have not heard anyone complain about putting the panels on their roofs. Yes, they were over promised on returns, but still would be ahead of the game.

    I said that the government had put panels on the roofs of schools, to ensure they had some protection against rising power costs.

    I was pointing out, that the Opposition with their daily report of power bills rising within schools ignores this fact. I suspect, most schools would be better off when it came to power cost, than they were five years ago.

    Another success for a government that does nothing.

  381. PS. The computers and associated technology, that the government has put in every classroom, would probably be more to blame for rising bills, than that from the CEF costs.

  382. I am surprise. It was only recently that Abbott said that the states funded public schools. The Federal government Independent.

    It was admitted this morning, that what they announced is a watered down version of the cuts. It was hinted that the minister was rolled when it come to his plans for the independents. The final; version, Independents do not miss out to July next year, and has a four year cap.

    Listening to callers. The government is sacking before putting the labour saving technology in placed. It is still being trialled. The two units that give teacher traininjg. and support, as well as planning for new curriculum that is being introduced, have already gone. Independents next year. Public today.

    As for TAFE’s it is my feeling that they are always reinventing themselves, as the workplace changes.

    I am sure that el gordo has swallowed perception that is aboard, that there are too many hobby courses.

    What needs to happen, funding should cease to privet training agencies and the funds diverted to the TAFEs and other government training centres. That was a so called reform of Howard, that is a complete farce and does not deliver.

  383. I also notice that the so called visitor likes to belittle the people he converses with snide remarks like.

    Talk is not action Paul, you seem to think that it is

    You still don’t understand the difference between promises and actual action now do you Paul?

    I do visitor.

    No you don’t that is certain.

    I know this Government is taking action on Climate change by the policies they are implementing and the work that has been done, where the LNP have only given aspirational policies, on what they might do in the future.

  384. paulwello @ 7:18 am

    What did I say, just gibberish.

    Don’t be too hard on yourself Paul, with work you can make your comments comprehensible…

    el gordo @ 7:55 am

    Iain hasn’t taken much interest in the science, otherwise he would come straight out and say AGW is a hoax….as the denialati is prone to do.

    I have actually argued the science for years El Gordo but in places like this I try the lateral approach and hope taht by pointing out that the faithful don’t have to abandon their core beliefs in AGW to understand that what is proposed in the name of saving the planet is utter bunkum.

    Catching up @ 8:32 am

    I have enjoy stirring but it has come tedious.

    Today efforts beats all that the visitor has provided up to now.

    A grand mother’s knowledge of educations is only superficial, says it all.

    how often do you see each grand child CU and how often when you see them do you have any contact with what they do at school? I bet that even with multiple grand children that your total contact time during the school year is orders of magnitude less than any parent who raises their children full time. Why you should think other wise is beyond me.

    Min @ 8:46 am

    Cu, and I suppose that my qualifications as a teacher majoring in psychology don’t count for much either

    Oh your qualification gets the Iain Hall tick of approval Min!

    Catching up
    September 12, 2012 @ 9:03 am

    Says it all. Once again, Labor builds, Liberals demolish.

    The Gonski Review has called for huge increases in funding to ensure that the growing equity gap between advantaged and disadvantaged communities is closed.
    The other side of the politics of austerity is the attack on social justice–ie., the redistribution of resources to the poor and disadvantaged –as a form of class warfare and class envy in conservative political discourse. This politics here is to defend private health insurance and private education at independent schools and to wind back the welfare state and to tell the poor to adapt to a transition to a health and education system that involves more personal responsibility and individual contributions.

    http://www.blogotariat.com/node/572372

    Catching up @ 9:19 am

    Did you not read, solar panels are a extra cost to the community. That one I cannot comprehend.

    Solar panels are subsidised (by the community) the feed in tariff from said panels is subsidised (by the community) and the infrastructure to support them is also subsidised by the other electricity consumers through higher charges, Did you think taht all of teh benifits enjoyed by panel owners come out of nothing?


    Tom R @ 9:38 am

    the so called cure can’t be made to happen anyway

    Why not?

    That is a really simple question to answer Tom.
    alright lets firstly enunciate just what the “cure is claimed to be. In the simplest terms its the removal of anthropogenic sources of “Greenhouse gases” from from the whole globe.
    Do you agree that is what the Gurus are calling for?
    So what political mechanism exits to make that happen?

    I mean actually make it happen and happen in a way that can be honestly measured?

    I won’t hold my breath while you try to answer that pertinent question.

    Humanity totally lacks teh ability to agree to do the one thing extensively enough or for long enough (centuries according to your experts)to make any kind of emission reductions work. We can’t even make peace last taht long let alone anything else.

    paulwello @ 10:11 am

    After yesterday encounter with the dark side, I am even more convinced they do not see the big picture, criticising what there children learn at school, schools taking the initiative of installing solar panels to help the children to learn not to rely on fossil fuels, but use the sun as a power generator, then saying this

    Solar panels are an overall cost to the community because the general tariff for power has risen to compensate power utilities for the cost of buying power and extra infrastructure to support PV installations. Its the poor and those on fixed incomes who are subsidising the largely middle class owners of solar panels.

    The more people that start using renewable energy, the less and less we will rely on fossil fuels, thus making it cheaper to use these wonderful new technologies to enhance our wonderful world we live in.

    I’m sure that you are probably well intentioned Paul and I’m certain that you don’t have kids or you would at least understand the reticence of those of us who do have children to surrender their minds to the ideology of their teachers. For the most part I am more than happy with what my children have been taught about caring for the environment and in many ways we are a head of the curve compared to those that live in the big smoke, after all how many city kids wake up to wallabies on the lawn and butcher birds visiting the lounge room? But I do object to them being fed the AGW theory as if it is proven fact. And I also object to the notion that humanity is in some sense outside of nature.
    Finally the theory about renewable energy is all well and good but it only exists due to ideologically driven subsidies and all of these “wonderful new technologies” are over priced and not as fit for purpose or reliable as the things that they seek to replace

  385. Thank you Iain re the tick of approval – it was an interesting study combining psychology with an arts major as many traumatised children cannot express things in words but can express via their drawings. Another reason why I’m against the schools chaplaincy program..but that’s another story..

  386. Sorry to have yet another go at el gordo, but only back here a short time and straight away into the usual tricks, or if you want to call it what I really think it is, trolling.

    What else do you call bumptious posting of single line or one paragraph statements with no explanation or reasoning behind them?

    If you want to engage in debate and have discussions then how about actually posting stuff that is meaningful and initiates lucid talking points.

    How is, “TAFE needs to be restructured.” in anyway a lucid and engaging talking point?

    On the other hand, “TAFE needs to be restructured because of failings in the following areas, 1. 2. 3. and not producing outcomes that meet industry needs due to A. B. C. etc. does start the ball rolling.

    One is trolling the other is the instigator of a discussion, especially if sources and links are provided to backup the contentions made.

  387. Has anyone noticed that there are many grannies around schools every day of the week. Funny, they often turn up more than mummy, definitely more that most dads.

    Many grannies are there for every school event, no matter how boring.

    It is nice to sit in a hall, instead of in the cold or heat, Even hear what is going on now,

    I have more input and interest in my year twelve grandson, than possibly his father does. I have been the one that is rung over the years, when ther has been problems or questions to be answered.

    I do not know what world some live in, if they believe that only they, as parents see what is going on in schools.

    My experience covers many schools in different areas. I spend days, even weeks with different members of my family.

    Maybe some think all those older women around schools are elderly mums.

    Any other grannies out there up to date with how their grand kids, and in my case, g grand kids are doing at school. Please enlighten certain parents on this site.

    As I said, some are becoming tedious, and not very with it, to boot.

  388. Mobius, an excellent description of how to differentiate between trolling and as you say, being an instigator of a discussion. Hence the reason why trolls are easy to overlook as they put forward no discussion.

  389. You know, our visitor is big on words but does not offer links or facts as to why climate change is not happening, only his opinion again

  390. The visitor said this

    Finally the theory about renewable energy is all well and good but it only exists due to ideologically driven subsidies and all of these “wonderful new technologies” are over priced and not as fit for purpose or reliable as the things that they seek to replace

    That is a negative view, if more and more of these renewable’s are used, it is more likely that the subsidies will be removed because of the advancement of these products to produce more energy and be more efficient.

  391. Do you agree that is what the Gurus are calling for?

    No, the scientists are calling for a reduction. And it is achievable

    centuries according to your experts

    You’ll have to expand on that, unlike you were able to do previously when asked to provide an explanation by me.

  392. ‘Why?’

    TAFE is designed to get people into the workforce, they can now be educated online. Sacking those teachers is the result of the technological revolution.

    Local libraries will also go out of fashion in the foreseeable future.

  393. I was told a story about two children, one a pessimist, one an optimist. They were put in a room with horse shit piled higher then the children and left there for a period of time to be observed.

    They noticed the pessimist child just sat there and did nothing but complain about being put in a room of horse shit.

    The optimist child was throwing the horse shit around like there was no tomorrow.

    They then asked the two children of there experience, the pessimist just groaned and complained some more. The optimist child said. ” with all that shit in there, there must be horse in there somewhere.”

  394. TAFE is designed to get people into the workforce, they can now be educated online.

    TAFE is primarily for manual trades genius. We aren’t quite that advanced in 3d modelling technology for that…..yet.

    It is vastly different to Universities, who are theoretically oriented

  395. That’s not all together true for TAFE el gordo.

    I’ve done two Cert IV’s through TAFE and both could not have been done wholly online.

    Also the provision of the VET courses online still needs staff and resources to conduct them, along with the considerable online websites required, and they aren’t cheap.

    As to local libraries, also wrong to a great extent. I get PUB books for my reader through a library in Adelaide. This is a service more local libraries are taking up, along with providing internet type cafes for research. They are adapting, so the local library still exists, just in different forms and providing a wider range of online/offline soft and hard copy reading materials. Local libraries also have mobile libraries as another example of their adpatation.

    So you are partly correct that TAFE needs to be restructured, but that was just a throwaway line with no information, so why did it take people asking for it to make you provide the scant something you did?

    TAFE is restructuring just as local libraries are, but that’s not a reason to savagely cut from them, it’s a reason to invest more in them.

    Sorry el gordo, your right wing governments are doing what they have always done, destroyed, and it will take Labor governments going into debt to rebuild. The cutbacks to TAFE have little to do with courses being available online, if that were they case why did they increase the fees?

    It has everything to do with conservatives not providing for most of the people in what is a core belief of theirs, which is of user pays, whilst they shift wealth from the bottom and middle to the top. They have no problems in finding huge amounts of funds to subsidise the private sector but nearly always eschew funding for the public.

  396. I’ve done two Cert IV’s through TAFE and both could not have been done wholly online.

    I think that you will find that there is very little TAFE does that can easily be moved online.

  397. paulwello 12:40 pm

    Complaining about renewables being subsidised, now I know it’s a joke.

    If you want to see massive subsidies have a look at those at every level that’s being paid to the fossil fuel industries.

    Another example is nuclear. Even Howard’s Ziggy Switkowski stacked and flawed report on nuclear energy showed it wasn’t viable without heavy subsidies.

    So how come the Right never bitch about non-renewables being subsidised and have had untold billions paid to them over the decades, but bitch at the slightest amount going to renewables, even if that’s to make it more efficient and cheaper?

    Hypcrites.

  398. ‘TAFE is primarily for manual trades genius.’

    Those relevant sections will be maintained, its the social misfits in the arts they can do away with …obviously I can’t say much more.

  399. Tom there are TAFE courses that have direct whole online equivalents, many are provided by private registered training organisations (RTO).

    The ones I’ve seen tend to be as expensive or more so and all take longer than going to TAFE. If you have a TAFE campus that provides the training you require I have found in nearly every case TAFE to be the better choice for a variety of reasons.

  400. obviously I can’t say much more.

    If you had just taken that view from the start, you could have saved yourself the ensuing embarrassment 😆

    Tom there are TAFE courses that have direct whole online equivalents

    In other words, it is already online (but, as I said, it is a very small portion of what TAFE does.

    Genius said they need to be restructured. His explanation so far has come to moving online, which appears to have been done for the very small areas avialable for them to do.

    In other words, he’s back at ‘DOH’ 😉

  401. ME here is a link to Fossil Fuel subsidies.

    Tightening the tap on ‘$1 trillion’ a year fossil fuel subsidies.

    The International Energy Agency (IEA) reported that internationally $409 billion worth of government money flowed into the coffers of the fossil fuel industry in consumption subsidies (designed to make fuel more affordable and accessible to the consumer) in 2010.
    A separate study from the U.S. Natural Resources Defense Council estimates that global fossil fuel subsidies will reach $775 billion this year when producer subsidies (designed to facilitate greater fuel production) are added on.
    However Kretzmann believes these figures may only be the tip of the iceberg and could actually top $1 trillion every year.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/18/business/fossil-fuel-subsidies/index.html

  402. Pyne is putting a real hissy fit, on today. Now Bishop is taking up the reins. Nastier than ever. She is supporting the fishing trawler.

    Desperation, I would say, is on display for all. A election from now on, is of no benefit for Abbott. He has loss and does not like it.

    Abbott is once again warn. I suspect there are many will be ejected. One already.

    They, are I believe challenging the deputy speaker.

  403. That is not what you said el gordo.

    You are doing it again.

    I was banned. Later to become, I was self banned.

    Now it was, TAFE needs to be restructured, which has morphed into, social misfits in the arts they can do away with. That is not a restructuring, that is dropping courses, which is something TAFE has been doing for a long time, ever since its inception.

    And it’s not just the arts that are being dropped, but many vocational courses as well, mostly those that benefit the least well off who are attempting to get some training behind them for work.

    I can post about why the arts and humanities should stay in TAFE and there is a good article on it, but what’s the use with el gordo, another one paragraph meaningless post on a different tact or topic will follow.

    So yet again the Liberals are creating the climate for increased poverty and crime, and will blame everything, including the people they screwed, but themselves for the mess they find themselves in when they get voted out for another decade or so.

  404. Yes paul. The wingnuts scream like stuck pigs about renewables being given subsidies, which are mostly to make them more efficient and affordable in the long run, and which is working, but hell don’t mention the insane amounts that go to the non-renewable energy sector and into the pockets of a few wealthy people.

  405. “‘TAFE is primarily for manual trades genius.’”

    That is a surprise to me and I suspect the many that have done non manual trades at TAFE over the last few decades.

    There is nothing manual about certificate and diploma courses in such things as welfare. There is nothing manual about courses that help one set up a small business. The lists go on and on.

    It is not hard to check, just go on line and take a peak. Maybe there are some that teach one how to provide a substantial breakfast.

  406. There is nothing manual about certificate and diploma courses in such things as welfare.

    True CU, but I did say ‘primarily’

    And, I think that you will find that even in things like Welfare etc, the TAFE certificate courses are more directed to real life interactions, front line work essentially, whereas a University degree is far more theoretical. And, as far as I am aware, much of this is available online, where possible.

    But, by and large, the largest area TAFE is aimed at is manual trades. I think that would take up their largest percentage of students (or it once did, anyway). It is hard to keep up with the constant attacks on it from the conservatives

  407. Yes, many courses can and are done on line. It might surprise some, TEACHERS and staff are still necessary.

  408. Min @ 12:07 pm

    Thank you Iain re the tick of approval – it was an interesting study combining psychology with an arts major as many traumatised children cannot express things in words but can express via their drawings. Another reason why I’m against the schools chaplaincy program..but that’s another story..

    Well as I see it Min there is no one size that fits all when it comes to helping children who are struggling in their lives sometimes they need the touch of the trick cyclist with paint and paper and other time they just need someone who will listen and not judge them.

    Catching up @ 12:10 pm

    Has anyone noticed that there are many grannies around schools every day of the week. Funny, they often turn up more than mummy, definitely more that most dads.

    Well this dad has been primary carer for his children for their whole lives their teachers know me far better than may wife

    Many grannies are there for every school event, no matter how boring.

    School events always bring out the Grannies but that does not make them au fait with the nuances of the curriculum now does it

    It is nice to sit in a hall, instead of in the cold or heat, Even hear what is going on now,

    My son’s school has a lovely new library but I don’t think that it has made any difference to the quality of the teaching (which was as good before the fancy digs were built)

    I have more input and interest in my year twelve grandson, than possibly his father does. I have been the one that is rung over the years, when there has been problems or questions to be answered.

    Well my thirteen year old daughter and I talk about her schooling every day

    I do not know what world some live in, if they believe that only they, as parents see what is going on in schools.

    Its not a case of parents being teh only ones who see but we do see far more detail than Grand parents ever do.

    My experience covers many schools in different areas. I spend days, even weeks with different members of my family.

    Maybe some think all those older women around schools are elderly mums.

    And I’m really respectful of your interest in the education of your grand children I’m sure that you have lots of valued experience to share with them. Its just ridiculousness to claim that your contact with their education exceeds taht of most parents who live with their children not just for the odd week or two but every day of the year.


    paulwello @ 12:33 pm

    You know, our visitor is big on words but does not offer links or facts as to why climate change is not happening, only his opinion again

    I defy you to find any where where I have ever claimed “climate change is not happening” I have repeatedly acknowledged that the climate constantly changes The real question that needs to be answered is to what extent can we blame human activity for any measured or perceived change.

    If you can’t understand that subtle distinction then you may as well give up trying to argue about climate


    paulwello @ 12:40 pm

    The visitor said this

    Finally the theory about renewable energy is all well and good but it only exists due to ideologically driven subsidies and all of these “wonderful new technologies” are over priced and not as fit for purpose or reliable as the things that they seek to replace

    That is a negative view, if more and more of these renewable’s are used, it is more likely that the subsidies will be removed because of the advancement of these products to produce more energy and be more efficient.

    Sure its a negative view Paul because I am a practical man who makes things so I am pretty well uninterested in stuff that does not match its promises. Especially if it is more expensive and less reliable, Take the alternatives to incandescent lights as an example it was claimed that they would do more for less power consumption yet in reality they are dimmer, and they last less time than the old bulbs. So by the time you add together the energy needed to make the new energy saver bulbs package and distribute them added top the fact that you need to change them a bit more often are we really that far ahead?

    Tom R @ 12:44 pm

    Do you agree that is what the Gurus are calling for?

    No, the scientists are calling for a reduction. And it is achievable

    that is splitting hairs Tom In essence they want to reduce emissions as much as possible but I would just love to hear you explain precisely how it is possible

    centuries according to your experts

    You’ll have to expand on that, unlike you were able to do previously when asked to provide an explanation by me.

    Well according to the Gurus of the Green faith we will have to not only reduce global emissions now but continue reducing them for hundreds of years. Are you that far out of touch with what the faith demands of you that I have to explain it to you”?

  409. The DS has threaten to send around all the emails she gets after QT, complaining about the behaviour of the house. Did look at the Opposition side when saying it.

  410. That’s it Cu. Even if TAFE courses are done offline, and even they are available by the private sector, they still require considerable funding and staffing.

    Every online TAFE or VET course I’ve seen has an advisor/instructor allocated to them so they can be contacted at anytime the trainee needs assistance.

    Online courses aren’t automatic monkey see monkey do, they require resources and interactions.

    What O’Farrell has done, which has been neatly side stepped in wasting tomes of posts in response to a single trolling line, is dramatically cut huge swaths from education in NSW, and if analysed most if all will be found to be unnecessary and being undertaken purely on ideological grounds in pursuit of the sole goal of a bragging right of having produced a surplus.

  411. Tom R, I was not having a go at you. Just saying, TAFE provides many courses that helps one get work, whether manually or in other fields. I believe they do a good job.

    As for renewals, yes they are expensive to introduce, especially when we have been use to cheap dirty coal. Coal which I believe is not so cheap now.

    Renewals on the other hand, is cheaper to maintain and run.

    Abbott has just reach the lowest of the lowest. Albanese had a crack at Abbott for not being out on his daily message. Abbott came back, very upset, telling Albanese was not he aware that there was a military funeral on today, He refrain out of respect. Abbott needs acting lessons. or maybe leave such comments up to Pyne, sees himself as a bit of a ham.

    Albanese then asked,, where has been for the rest of the week. Wonder why he was not at the funeral.

  412. that is splitting hairs Tom In essence they want to reduce emissions as much as possible but I would just love to hear you explain precisely how it is possible

    No it isn’t splitting hairs. reducing emmissions is achievable, whereas the ‘removal of anthropogenic sources of “Greenhouse gases” from from the whole globe.’ is quite probably not. They are vastly different. If you cannot understand that, then no wonder bolt makes sense to you.

    Well according to the Gurus of the Green faith we will have to not only reduce global emissions now but continue reducing them for hundreds of years.

    No, you are again wrong. Once a sustainable level of emmissions is attained, it can be maintained at that level. Try reading scientists opinions, and not your own ‘guru’s, who make an art form out of twisting what the scieence really says.

    I would just love to hear you explain precisely how it is possible

    😯

    An ETS is a good start. Far more investment in renewables. Better housing design (something this Government should be doing a lot more about). Hempcrete is a material I just saw last week on Grand Designs. There are solutions out there, if you are not too afraid, or blinkered, to look.

  413. Tom
    apart from more hair splitting is this really the best that you can come up with?

    An ETS is a good start. Far more investment in renewables. Better housing design (something this Government should be doing a lot more about). Hempcrete is a material I just saw last week on Grand Designs. There are solutions out there, if you are not too afraid, or blinkered, to look.

    That is no explanation AT ALL of how it is possible it is just more pious hope and wishful thinking so I’ll give another chance to do better

  414. Opposition give not give government necessary notice. Albanese has moved that Hockey be no longer heard.

    Not very nice or productive QT

  415. That is no explanation AT ALL of how it is possible

    Well that is your opinion. The large proportion of the worlds scientists, economists and politicains disagree with you. And, considering you classify ‘reducing emmissions’ to acceptable levels with ‘removal … from the whole planet’ as mere ‘hair splitting’ then I know who I’ll be taking notice of.

    And please, in case you don’t want me to put a link up that will have you running to Migs to pull down from pure embarrassment, don’t conflate two seperate issues to try and pretend we are on the same page here. There is no ‘hair splitting’ at all. No scientist that I have ever read has argued that we must remove anthropogenic sources of “Greenhouse gases” from the whole globe. Don’t make shit up, and pretend that you are ‘debating’.