Imagine

This is what John Lennon sang four decades ago:

Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

You, you may say
I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one
I hope some day you’ll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world

You, you may say
I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one
I hope some day you’ll join us
And the world will live as one

Can you just imagine?

Imagine

Imagine (Photo credit: EricMagnuson)

111 comments on “Imagine

  1. I can do more than imagine. I can hope. The world is getting much smaller. We are also mingling more, mixing up our cultures, and blood.

    Yes, I can see the world becoming one. Where cultures , races and nationality no longer counts.

  2. the world will have to “become one” if our civilisation is to evolve through the developing crises we face from agw.

    personally, i like to imagine a world such as described by JL, ……much nicer(and more survivable) than the right’s “imaginations”, couched in conflict, fear and denial of reality as they are.

  3. One of my favourite quotes from that loquatious source of quotes ; Edward Gibbon and his “…Decline and Fall…”
    “If one was to seek an excuse even for this fantasy (religeon). one could ask : What greater perfidity could be levied upon humanity than that they should sue for their ” everlasting souls” from the very disengenous creator of their misfortune.”

  4. Peace requires a paradigm shift as implied in the words of John Lennon’s song of forty years ago. In practical terms that means applying principles and practices of justice and conflict resolution. We could move, for example, from a wider practice of transforming retributive justice into restorative justice with a stronger emphasis on “prevention rather than cure”.

    While not suggesting that peace is ever easy, a practical measure, aware that George Orwell has got there already, is to establish a Department of Peace and Conflict Resolution, in which these principles are encouraged to be used between neighbours, nationally and internationally. If the first resort is that might makes right, the use of military threat, economic pressure and overt violence, often in contravention to existing International Law, as it often it, then at best any assumed peace is conditional on violence. There is almost nothing surer: violence creates violence. As a concrete example, I wonder whether there is a connection between the increased use of Drone attacks is related to rise in attacks and killing of Nato and allied soldiers in Afghanistan.

    The problem, I am suggesting, lies in our way of thinking, and we accept these things as normal, and so we cannot understand and act to create a different world, which is now more imperative than ever.

  5. And there’s another quote that could be lavelled at Cambell Newman and the blind foolishness of the Qld. electorate in giving such a mandate to him who forewarned such cuts and savagery….”A nation of slaves will view as magnanimous the tyrant, who in witholding supreme cruelty, merely distributes pain in measured increments.”

  6. Yeah some lovely wishes in Lennon’s song but the naivety is very evident as well.

    Lennon never had to think about the rise of militant Islam which will accept no compromise and has only one outcome that they will accept which is the submission of the entire planet to Allah and his prophet Mohammed. Imagine all you please but when you face an implacable foe that won’t compromise or accept a negotiated settlement then what do you do with your wishful thinking about peace?
    Your choices then are very stark and that is to defeat the ideology by military means or to just submit to Islam and surrender our entire way of life.
    You choose

  7. Oh what rot, Iain. We face a threat from religious militants of *all* stripes-as much from Fundamentalist Christianity & Hinduism as Islam. Still, given how many of your mates are themselves Fundamentalist Christians, I’m not surprised that your little rant excluded that religion. So tell us again, Iain, how many non-Muslims have been killed by Muslims, vs the number of non-Muslims killed by those of their same ethnic group? Yet still morons like you want us to cower in fear at the largely.manufactured threat of Militant Islam!

  8. BTW, Iain, your mate Bush is close pals with the House of Saud- a family that belongs to the most Militant & Fundamentalist Sect of Islam-the Wahabbi. Reagan also gave large sums of money to Pakistan & Saudi Arabia in the 1980’s- much of which was used to sponsor militant Islamism in Afghanistan, & Pakistan-which was OK, apparently, when the Soviets were the Boogyman de jour!

  9. Militant Islam!., I believe have been around since the days of the Crusaders, probably before.

    I also notice, the Crusaders had to travel far from their homelands to launch their battles.

    There are many different types of Islamism, as there is Christianity.

  10. Marcus @ 5:12 pm

    Oh what rot, Iain. We face a threat from religious militants of *all* stripes-as much from Fundamentalist Christianity & Hinduism as Islam.

    You are superficially correct however which faith is seeking hegemony via the sword just as its scriptures require it to do?

    Still, given how many of your mates are themselves Fundamentalist Christians, I’m not surprised that your little rant excluded that religion.

    I do have a couple of family members who are born again Christians, however they are very far from being any sort of zealots and I am a life long atheist.

    So tell us again, Iain, how many non-Muslims have been killed by Muslims, vs the number of non-Muslims killed by those of their same ethnic group? Yet still morons like you want us to cower in fear at the largely.manufactured threat of Militant Islam!

    Mate, when they tell us that they want to dominate the entire planet and that they are willing to kill those who refuse to submit why would you think them insincere?

    Marcus @ 5:18 pm

    BTW, Iain, your mate Bush is close pals with the House of Saud- a family that belongs to the most Militant & Fundamentalist Sect of Islam-the Wahabbi.

    Do you think that I endorse the house of Saud? or Wahabbi Islam? I don’t

    Reagan also gave large sums of money to Pakistan & Saudi Arabia in the 1980′s- much of which was used to sponsor militant Islamism in Afghanistan, & Pakistan-which was OK, apparently, when the Soviets were the Boogyman de jour!

    They were wrong then too but so what does it matter now?

    Catching up @ 5:27 pm

    Militant Islam!., I believe have been around since the days of the Crusaders, probably before.

    I also notice, the Crusaders had to travel far from their homelands to launch their battles.

    There are many different types of Islamism, as there is Christianity.

    History CU you must read more History and then you would not embarrass yourself with your own ignorance 🙄

  11. Don’t Get me wrong Min I love the sentiments in that song as much as you do I just think that it might have been right in the long shadow of Vietnam but after 9 11 we can’t just think that pacifism is any kind of answer.

  12. Visitor, what is wrong with my history. It was throw away line. Did the Crusaders fight in England. I am sorry, I did not know that.

    Whether they fought infidels or other militant groups is of little importance. They were always fighting someone, who they always demonised.

    You are indeed a wowser. whenever a more positive topic is raised, you cannot get to the line quick enough to put it down.

    We are not stupid. We know we cannot change the whole world. The best we can hope for, is that we leave it a little better, than when we came into it.

    Why do you find this lovely country such a dammed place. Why do you believe that things cannot be better.

  13. Where was the word pacifism mentioned. People are saying, there are better ways, Most wars and disputes are more likely caused by poverty on one side, and opulent wealth on the other.

  14. lain..I refer you to Tacitus..”Agricola..30..The speech of Calgacus to the last army of Britons”, before the battle with Agricola.
    I notice it is always the most craven who arm themselves most aggressively.

  15. Catching up @ 6:24 pm

    Visitor, what is wrong with my history. It was throw away line. Did the Crusaders fight in England. I am sorry, I did not know that.

    Your history is faulty because you seem to ignorant of the fact that it was the Muslims who took the holy land by force and that the Crusades were intended to expel the invaders form the heart of Christendom.

    Whether they fought infidels or other militant groups is of little importance. They were always fighting someone, who they always demonised.

    Further ignorance of the historical facts is evident here.

    You are indeed a wowser. whenever a more positive topic is raised, you cannot get to the line quick enough to put it down.

    look CU I can sing Combya with the best of them but I just don’t think that its enough in this day and age

    We are not stupid. We know we cannot change the whole world. The best we can hope for, is that we leave it a little better, than when we came into it.

    Sure I get that and I share that sentiment but I’m getting too old and grumpy to hold onto false hope jsut tofeel betetr for a few moments

    Why do you find this lovely country such a dammed place. Why do you believe that things cannot be better.

    I don’t find this country to be Damned in any way, Nor do I believe that we can’t improve things, its just that I think that we need to pick our battles with care and to chose the ones we can win.
    Catching up @ 6:27 pm

    Where was the word pacifism mentioned. People are saying, there are better ways, Most wars and disputes are more likely caused by poverty on one side, and opulent wealth on the other.

    The whole lyric of “imagine ” is a plaintive cry for peace and to suggest that if we could lose the things that divide humanity like different religions and ambitions then we could all all live in peace. That song is pacifism personified.
    jaycee @ 6:39 pm

    lain..I refer you to Tacitus..”Agricola..30..The speech of Calgacus to the last army of Britons”, before the battle with Agricola.
    I notice it is always the most craven who arm themselves most aggressively.

    There is a big difference between being peacefull and being an utter wimp. Those of us who are realists understand that sometimes there are times when you can’t turn the other cheek and pretending that wishful thinking of the sort enunciated by Lennon in Imagine is any kind of answer is just so childish.

  16. Curious to know who were there first. I must be wrong, that is where the Arab nations were. It appears, everyone lays claim to this land. Christians, Jews and Muslims.

    It also appears that they all probably, in their eyes at least, have genuine claims.

    Both religions arose in the same vicinity.

    Before that, there were I believe the infidels. Before that, the pagans.

  17. Visitor, you spend so much time, telling us how wonderful and normal you are. Why does one find it hard to believe you.

  18. “You are superficially correct however which faith is seeking hegemony via the sword just as its scriptures require it to do?”

    LOL Iain. Care to list all the Countries that have so far been invaded or have their governments overthrown by Militant Islamic Regimes? Take your time, but I doubt you’ll find too many. Here’s a list of the ones which have been taken down by supposedly democratic Western Nations (directly or indirectly): Guatemala, El Salvador, Chile, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq (one coup, two invasions), Egypt, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Vietnam-& those are just the ones that come immediately to mind. Also, you might want to look at some of the scriptures that the Fundamentalist Christians & Jews are using to justify their attempts to drag us back into the Bronze Age-before you start pointing fingers at the Islamic Scriptures. In the last decade, it’s been the various sects of Christianity that have tried to restrict the Rights of people living in Western Nations (women’s rights, gay rights, teaching of science in schools, access to contraception & sex education etc etc). The reality is that, as much as you people try & Deny it, Islam is just the new boogyman invented by the Right Wing now that you can’t scare us all with the “evil” Soviet Union. Yet when asked to present *real* evidence of the threat posed by Islam, the Far Right fail to provide any compelling evidence (& the “evidence” they do provide is incredibly reminiscent of the “Protocols of the Elder Zion” used to drum up fear & hate of Jews during the 19th & 20th centuries).

  19. “Your history is faulty because you seem to ignorant of the fact that it was the Muslims who took the holy land by force and that the Crusades were intended to expel the invaders form the heart of Christendom.”

    Actually, it’s your knowledge of history that’s faulty. Arabia was the birthplace of the 3 major monotheistic faiths, & after the rise of Islam in the 7th century, members of all 3 faiths were allowed to practice their faith without fear of persecution. Then along came invading forces of Catholic Europeans-who murdered thousands upon thousands of Jews & Muslims. The same is true of the Reconquista. Under Islamic Rule, Jews & Christians were allowed to practice their faith, but once the Catholic rulers returned, you got the Spanish Inquisition-where Jews, Muslims & Heretic Christians were put to death by the thousands.

  20. Oh &, for the record, I despise all forms of religious fundamentalism, but it’s so like a member of the Far Right to drum up fear of one, whilst totally ignoring the ones which actually pose the greatest immediate threat to our freedoms.

  21. “They were wrong then too but so what does it matter now?”

    It matters because, had the powers of the time not been so desperate to defeat one boogyman, then maybe we wouldn’t have this current boogyman to be concerned about-Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan & Iran would all be moderate Social Democracies had we not spent the better part of 30 years propping up or otherwise giving succor to the Islamic Fundamentalist elements within these nations.

  22. Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them

    Wherever you look the Right lie. They lie about everything and anything to get into power. Abbott is no different here only he doesn’t have the huge amounts of money the Right in America can raise.

    Lying is their core and proves how weak a party they are that they believe the only way they can win elections is by prevarications. But they may be right, they could be so weak minded morally and politically they only have lies and deceits as a tactic to win elections.

  23. Möbius, from your link, fancy going to all that trouble to lie about a marathon race, especially when it can be proven to be a lie so easily.

  24. Catching up @ 7:25 pm

    Curious to know who were there first. I must be wrong, that is where the Arab nations were. It appears, everyone lays claim to this land. Christians, Jews and Muslims.

    The Jews have the most long-standing claim to the land between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean sea,followed by the Christians and the Muslims came hundreds of years after them.

    It also appears that they all probably, in their eyes at least, have genuine claims.

    Both religions arose in the same vicinity.

    Before that, there were I believe the infidels. Before that, the pagans.

    Sorry C U but you need to bush up on your history of the Abrahamic religions because you are Waaay off in your understanding/
    Catching up @ 7:26 pm

    Visitor, you spend so much time, telling us how wonderful and normal you are. Why does one find it hard to believe you.

    If I was seeking your approval rather than a way of keeping my mind sharp that might worry me but as it stands I don’t care what you believe

    Marcus @ 7:31 pm

    “You are superficially correct however which faith is seeking hegemony via the sword just as its scriptures require it to do?”

    LOL Iain. Care to list all the Countries that have so far been invaded or have their governments overthrown by Militant Islamic Regimes? Take your time, but I doubt you’ll find too many.

    Just about any country with an Islamic population is to a greater or lesser degree despotic and totalitarian.

    Here’s a list of the ones which have been taken down by supposedly democratic Western Nations (directly or indirectly): Guatemala, El Salvador, Chile, Nicaragua, Iran, Iraq (one coup, two invasions), Egypt, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Vietnam-& those are just the ones that come immediately to mind.

    You really do hate western civilisation don’t you Marcus?

    Also, you might want to look at some of the scriptures that the Fundamentalist Christians & Jews are using to justify their attempts to drag us back into the Bronze Age-before you start pointing fingers at the Islamic Scriptures.

    Well I actually have done precisely that over the years and when it comes to scriptural instruction to commit beastly behaviour the Koran beats both the Talmud and the Christian bible by orders of magnitude

    In the last decade, it’s been the various sects of Christianity that have tried to restrict the Rights of people living in Western Nations (women’s rights, gay rights, teaching of science in schools, access to contraception & sex education etc etc).

    You say that with a straight face while you are trying to defend Islam? man oh man that is bent thinking. Can I suggest that you try being openly gay in any Islamic country and If you survive maybe you would be more realistic about the followers of which faith we should have concerns about.

    The reality is that, as much as you people try & Deny it, Islam is just the new boogyman invented by the Right Wing now that you can’t scare us all with the “evil” Soviet Union.

    That is utter crap. I am old enough to remember the cold war, Are you? Because the sort of “reds under the bed mentality” was well over by the sixties and a joke by the seventies That you think that Islam is nothing more than an invented threat is an insult to all those who died in those New York towers and that Bali nightclub.

    Yet when asked to present *real* evidence of the threat posed by Islam, the Far Right fail to provide any compelling evidence (& the “evidence” they do provide is incredibly reminiscent of the “Protocols of the Elder Zion” used to drum up fear & hate of Jews during the 19th & 20th centuries).

    Funny that you should mention the ““Protocols of the Elder(s) (of)Zion” because the only place that this example of scaremongering has currency these days is in the Islamic countries!

    Marcus @ 7:37 pm

    Actually, it’s your knowledge of history that’s faulty. Arabia was the birthplace of the 3 major monotheistic faiths, & after the rise of Islam in the 7th century, members of all 3 faiths were allowed to practice their faith without fear of persecution. Then along came invading forces of Catholic Europeans-who murdered thousands upon thousands of Jews & Muslims. The same is true of the Reconquista. Under Islamic Rule, Jews & Christians were allowed to practice their faith, but once the Catholic rulers returned, you got the Spanish Inquisition-where Jews, Muslims & Heretic Christians were put to death by the thousands.

    I scarcely know where to start with your amazingly twisted understanding of the history of those three faiths 🙄
    Ok lets start with Geography,

    The Jewish and Christian faith that it spawned began not in the Arabian peninsula but in Israel that is in the land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean sea, NOT hundreds of miles to the west in the Arabian desert 🙄

    as for this tosh: after the rise of Islam in the 7th century, members of all 3 faiths were allowed to practice their faith without fear of persecution. you could not be further from the truth, infidels have only ever been barely tolerated if they would accept a socially inferior status and paid a dimini tax to their Muslim over lords to say they were in any way free to practice their faith is entirely wrong.
    when it comes to the sins of the catholic church I won’t make any excuses for them but its small beer and OLD news compared to the atrocities committed in the name of Allah right up until our own times

    Marcus @ 7:41 pm

    Oh &, for the record, I despise all forms of religious fundamentalism, but it’s so like a member of the Far Right to drum up fear of one, whilst totally ignoring the ones which actually pose the greatest immediate threat to our freedoms.

    That is utter rubbish Marcus because if itv was true you would not be defending Islam as you do here


    Marcus @ 7:50 pm

    “They were wrong then too but so what does it matter now?”

    It matters because, had the powers of the time not been so desperate to defeat one boogyman, then maybe we wouldn’t have this current boogyman to be concerned about-Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan & Iran would all be moderate Social Democracies had we not spent the better part of 30 years propping up or otherwise giving succor to the Islamic Fundamentalist elements within these nations.

    The reason that the Islamists are so prominent is due to one thing, OIL, and the fact that they have grown obscenely wealthy upon the money that it makes them

    Min @ 10:09 pm

    Iain @6.15pm. I cannot think of one war where the major beneficiary was not the people, but the power hungry and the greedy.

    What about the Falklands war?

  25. Visitor. I need you to know, I do not need to brush up on anything. At least I do not need to do so, because you say. I was only talking in generality.. I was not stating facts.The truth is, I could not care less what you think.

    You just do not count with me. I see most of your arguments as tripe, as we are on the meat theme today.

  26. CU
    I want to respect your opinions but when you present them based on factually inaccurate and historically mistaken notions what chance do you think you have of making your point well?
    Now if you just take half a step back and stop thinking that I am evil incarnate you might just have as much fun as I do arguing the toss. After all isn’t it fun taht we all do this blog commenting thing for?

  27. Don’t Get me wrong. I love the sentiments in that song as much as everyone. I just think that it might have been right in the long shadow of Vietnam but after Iraq we can’t just think that americanism is any kind of answer.

  28. 730reportland

    If you are going to quote anyone convention requires that you acknowledge your source.
    That said If you had to chose American cultural hegemony or Islamic cultural hegemony which do you thing would be worse and why do you think that?

  29. chose American cultural hegemony or Islamic cultural hegemony

    as with all false binary choices, there are multitudes of choices available, but just to keep it simple for the troll, the most obvious and intelligent answer is neither

    perhaps the troll needs help with the spell check?

  30. pterosaur1

    as with all false binary choices, there are multitudes of choices available, but just to keep it simple for the troll, the most obvious and intelligent answer is neither

    🙄
    In the context of the comment I was responding to what I was asking is entirely reasonable .

    Further if you want to be picky about my spelling then perhaps you should attend instead to your tendency not to capitalise your words correctly.

  31. “Now if you just take half a step back and stop thinking that I am evil incarnate ”

    Wrong again, You are a nothing.

    Just think you are an idiot that is up yourself.

    Surely I am entitled to my own opinion.

    or do you reserve that right for yourself.

  32. what I was asking is entirely reasonable .

    well, you might think so, but i for one don’t. whether you think it “reasonable ” or not doesn’t alter the falseness of the dichotomy you have drawn

    wrt spelling, i was using your demonstrated attitude to typos by others in an effort to (perhaps) induce in you a little self awareness 🙄

    and you still owe me an apology for the false and malicious claim you made about me “hiding behind” my stroke. you remain unable to justify this falsehood, or provide any evidence to support your assertion, so it should be withdrawn, if you wish to “play nice ” 🙂

    Cu sums you up pretty well 😆

  33. Catching up @ 9:43 am

    “Now if you just take half a step back and stop thinking that I am evil incarnate ”

    Wrong again, You are a nothing.

    😆

    Just think you are an idiot that is up yourself.

    Surely I am entitled to my own opinion.

    Sure even when it is totally wrong 😀

    or do you reserve that right for yourself.

    Certainly not, but I will share my opinion that you can’t handle debate on the issues and politely made when it is outside your favoured paradigm

    pterosaur1 @ 11:23 am

    what I was asking is entirely reasonable .

    well, you might think so, but i for one don’t. whether you think it “reasonable ” or not doesn’t alter the falseness of the dichotomy you have drawn

    Gee that is a matter of opinion really isn’t it and surely its really between the person I was actually responding to rather than you to decide when push comes to shove.

    wrt spelling, i was using your demonstrated attitude to typos by others in an effort to (perhaps) induce in you a little self awareness 🙄

    I am very well aware of the fact that I am far from being a natural speller and I make a significant effort to correct may mistakes so what was the point of you chiding me about my spelling in a comment that has no errors? That you did so in comment of your own that is riven with errors suggest that it is you who not really self aware.

    and you still owe me an apology for the false and malicious claim you made about me “hiding behind” my stroke. you remain unable to justify this falsehood, or provide any evidence to support your assertion, so it should be withdrawn, if you wish to “play nice ” 🙂

    Until you prove yourself worthy of that generosity (because I have answered that complaint previously)then I see no reason to back away from anything that I have said about you in the past. That said I am more than happy to offer a quid pro quo to you and suggest that we both treat each other with more courtesy in the future, however I suspect that you are far from being man enough to do it.

  34. Yes, even when I am wrong. I course it makes a difference, who says I am wrong. Many others agree I am not wrong. What happens then.

    I am not wrong in my opinion of you. Is it true that you are unemployed ands live on benefits. That could explain why we see you so much

  35. I am more than happy to offer a quid pro quo to you and suggest that we both treat each other with more courtesy in the future, however I suspect that you are far from being man enough to do it.

    😯 😦

  36. Just out of morbid curiosity iain, are you able to vouch for the veracity of this

    Iain Hall is notoriously unemployed and has not held any form of paid employment since he began blogging in 2006. He initially claimed to be a ‘stay-at-home dad’, tending his two children while his wife worked, however both Hall’s children are now at school. Iain Hall has consistently refused to answer questions about whether he receives unemployment benefits, other pensions or family tax benefits – all while blogging mercilessly about the unfortunates in society who rely on government allowances. Iain Hall does perform odd jobs, such as the construction of spiral staircases-to-nowhere; he receives cash for these jobs but presumably does not declare this income to the Australian Taxation Office.

    And, if so, when you swap back, will your wife then be the ‘unemployed’ one?

    Tom, I felt obliged to remove the link. Can I offer you a beer?

  37. Yawn!
    Tom mate, I believe that the ethos here is to play the ball rather than the man so kindly stop referencing that site here It is a fabric of lies half truths and gross misrepresentation of both me personally and the things that I argue for. Migs previously removed your link (at my request) to that page and I expect that he will quickly do so again once he realises that you have posted it a second time. maybe that will give you a hint that the site owner here does not approve of you citing it here.

  38. I’ve got a story about that song.
    I must confess a secret perversion. I like Christmas Carols. But they have to be done right. They usually aren’t at Carols By Candlelight & such but I watch them anyway.
    One year I was watching CByC or something similar & on comes this git whose claim to fame was having come 3rd in that year’s Australian Idol or whatever.
    He started out on “Imagine” & I thought – what’s he going to do when he gets to THAT line? I didn’t have long to wait & when he got to THAT line he sang it.
    “..And no religion too-oo” wafted out through the speakers.
    He finished to the requisite applause leaving me thinking there’s something seriously wrong with this country. For various reasons I haven’t changed my opinion about that yet.

  39. Bob,
    some people just never listen to the words of songs or even think about what they mean. For many its more about the emotion and the feeling than the lyric. I think that someone sang “imagine” at the last Carols that I went too as well and I seem to recall having similar thoughts to your own.

  40. iain @ 8:30 AM

    If you had to chose

    iain @ 12:02PM

    so what was the point of you chiding me about my spelling in a comment that has no errors?

    😆
    so in iain’s “reality” i have to

    prove yourself worthy of that generosity

    in asking for an apology for an uncalled for, incorrect and malicious slur ? this

    because I have answered that complaint previously

    well you haven’t done that iain, rather you attempted justification of your false and malicious statement, and rather than properly apologise, you continue, that

    I see no reason to back away from anything that I have said about you in the past

    hint : it’s not “generosity”, i seek, honesty and the decency to admit error, seem more appropriate in this case
    as for your offer

    that we both treat each other with more courtesy

    well that may be possible – if you would for instance, cease your lying, and personal abuse. however, if you think use of lies, denial and misrepresentation, in order to make a point is “courteous” then we differ.

    i would also point out that what you seem to regard as “abuse”, (ie my pointing out , with the provision of evidence of your use of such tactics) contrasts significantly with your approach in attempting evidence free personal attacks, as evidenced by
    your complete failure to support your previous assertion that i was
    ”hiding behind my stroke” with any evidence

  41. Do you share may doubts about pterosaur1 Tom ?

    I’m pretty sure I share little with you. For one, I probably wouldn’t sulk in asking people to play nice with me, then give them a pathetic backhander on the way out. It’s no real surprise that you find it hard to be taken seriously. Given your long record of being, should we say, not completely honest in your arguments, and your inability to face up to that track record.

    Why do you not want that link put up? Why do you not want to address the core of the comment I put up? Is there something there that you are ashamed of?

    Personally, I think that someone with a long history on the internet should have nothing to fear from others seeing what has happened in the past. You can either face it, or pretend it didn’t happen. Neither choice will make the past go away.

    And, I would prefer the link to a beer Migs. I really cannot see why others cannot see what has gone before? It is nice to have a little context

    It isn’t hard to find, all I did was google a name and the word troll. Google did the rest. 😉

  42. From what I know of Tom R he might have a few nervous weeks ahead of him, starting with the game against the Swans.

    Every AFL fan outside of Adelaide will be going for the Swannies.

    Imagine. The Crows losing. 🙂

  43. :oops:, i forgot

    however I suspect that you are far from being man enough to do it.

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

    projection much ❓

  44. Yea, I got it earlier pterosaur1

    I just don’t think he did

    Imagine. The Crows losing

    Not an easy thing to do. I can Imagine the another night at Crow Casino though 🙂

  45. pterosaur1 @ 2:20 pm

    so in iain’s “reality” i have to

    prove yourself worthy of that generosity

    in asking for an apology for an uncalled for, incorrect and malicious slur ?

    Mate even before I made taht suggestion about your stroke you have been needlessly abusive towards me not once but many times and I have held out the olive branch several times despite your abuse and ongoing rancour. Yet you think I owe you and apology :roll:!

    this

    because I have answered that complaint previously

    well you haven’t done that Iain, rather you attempted justification of your false and malicious statement, and rather than properly apologise, you continue,

    Why would you expect me to back down over a triviality when you are unwilling to accept my offer of a Quid Pro Quo? You know that means we both let go of the previous animus and start afresh with civility. I’m willing but you clearly need that act of supplication from me that is just not going to happen.

    that I see no reason to back away from anything that I have said about you in the past

    hint : it’s not “generosity”, i seek, honesty and the decency to admit error, seem more appropriate in this case
    as for your offer

    I am honest in my comments and as for decency you should practice what you preach, you were the first to stoop to personal abuse so it is you who should, in any concept of good manners apologise first.

    that we both treat each other with more courtesy

    well that may be possible – if you would for instance, cease your lying, and personal abuse. however, if you think use of lies, denial and misrepresentation, in order to make a point is “courteous” then we differ.

    I do not abuse other posters and as for honesty well you think that anyone who does not have your green faith is some sort of ecological vandal who is deliberately spreading lies which shows that it is you who has a problem with the truth not I.

    i would also point out that what you seem to regard as “abuse”, (ie my pointing out , with the provision of evidence of your use of such tactics) contrasts significantly with your approach in attempting evidence free personal attacks, as evidenced by
    your complete failure to support your previous assertion that i was
    ”hiding behind my stroke” with any evidence

    Get over it mate or it will be a stroke that takes you out.

    Tom R @ 2:30 pm

    Do you share may doubts about pterosaur1 Tom ?

    I’m pretty sure I share little with you. For one, I probably wouldn’t sulk in asking people to play nice with me, then give them a pathetic backhander on the way out. It’s no real surprise that you find it hard to be taken seriously. Given your long record of being, should we say, not completely honest in your arguments, and your inability to face up to that track record.

    I am what I am and I have shall we say “a history”. As I was suggesting on the trolling thread I do know how such things work because I have been a victim of some very serious cyber bullying in my years on the net I have had an endless series of trolls turn up to my blog trying to go the Gotcha, or worse yet pretend to be my friend in the hope of drawing me into saying something imprudent. I’ve done some things that I now regret but on the whole I think that I have sinned far less than I have been sinned against.

    Why do you not want that link put up? Why do you not want to address the core of the comment I put up? Is there something there that you are ashamed of?

    Its simple Tom I’m trying to put all of the blog wars that have vexed me for the last six years behind me. Is that so hard to understand? I have managed to see off just about every one of the scum-bags who tried to make my life a misery and now I don’t want to endlessly rehash old history.

    Personally, I think that someone with a long history on the internet should have nothing to fear from others seeing what has happened in the past. You can either face it, or pretend it didn’t happen. Neither choice will make the past go away.

    Those who know need no explanation Tom,and for those like you who don’t know no explanation is possible.

  46. in spite of your assertions iain, you cannot substantiate any of your claims about me. i have substantiated every claim i have made (for instance) about your dishonesty.

    you’re out of your league you fool

  47. pterosaur1 @ 3:35 pm

    in spite of your assertions iain, you cannot substantiate any of your claims about me. i have substantiated every claim i have made (for instance) about your dishonesty.

    you’re out of your league you fool

    Mate I have made to “claims” about you beyond questioning your expertise and qualification which because of your anonymity is entirely reasonable

  48. Mate I have made to “claims” about you,/i>

    And of course your ‘suspicion’ that he isn’t ‘man enough’ 😉

    As an olive branch no less ROFL 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

  49. 😆 ian. You are a riot. Seriously, that is just too funny for words

    Perhaps you should do a Tafe course on conflict resolution or something with all of your spare time and obvious inclination in that area 😆

  50. Here’s a hint for ya ian, when offering up to wipe a slate clean, don’t do it while piling more shit on the slate 😉

  51. Mate I have made to “claims” about you beyond questioning your expertise and qualification

    you have inferred that i am as dishonest as you are, in falsely claiming an “expertise” that i don’t have. you made the scurrilous claim wrt my stroke, and continue to denigrate while fondly imagining you’re clever, as you continue to demonstrate your deep hypocrisy and dishonesty. At no stage have you attempted to justify these assertions …….i’ll count the effort @ 4:03 as an attempt, at least. 😆

    you’re a troll, and i was obviously foolish to expect rationality behind the semblance of reason you offer, but then again just like John Lennon, i’d like a world free of lies and bullshit.

  52. AntonyG @ 4:59 pm

    Iain,

    Anonymous only to you. I would suggest that you take a person at their word.

    Mate I have absolutely no reason to take anyone posting under a pseudonym “at their word” especially when they have been less than pleasant to me. Does they irony of you giving me that advice while you yourself remain anonymous not occur to you either?

  53. Does they irony of you giving me that advice while you yourself remain anonymous not occur to you either?

    Does the irony of you complaining about this just after making Migs take down a link cataloguing your less than illustrious blogging career not occur to you?

  54. The visitor must be in his glory today. He has succeed in taking over the post. It is only fitting, it is all about him.

    I am a little disappointed, as he gave the impression months ago that he used his lunch hour to reply here.

    I used to comment, that he had extra long lunches. That was obviously untrue.

    Keep returning the serves. It is about time, the visitor had a little of his own treatment.

  55. I wonder if those who say we have been less than pleasant to them, ever ask themselves why.

    Most on this site, appear to treat one another with respect.

  56. Yeah some lovely wishes in Lennon’s song but his accuracy is very evident as well. Lennon always did think about the rise of militant americanism which, will accept no compromise and has only one outcome that they will accept, which is the submission of the entire planet to america and its war machine. Imagine all you please, but when you face an invading foe that won’t compromise or accept a negotiated settlement then what do you do with your wishful thinking about peace? Your choices then are very stark and that is to defeat the ideology by military means or to just submit to americanism and surrender our entire way of life. You choose.

  57. On the education funding issue..

    ONLY the best and brightest will be able to get into university teaching courses under the federal government’s reform package to improve the educational outcomes of the nation’s children.

    But the Education Minister, Peter Garrett, would not say whether teachers should be paid more in return for lifting children’s performances.

    ”The issue of their remuneration is a matter for their employers,” Mr Garrett said.

    The Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, announced yesterday that she would introduce legislation by the end of the year to overhaul federal school funding arrangements, which will aim to raise the performance of Australian students to the top five countries for maths, science and reading by 2025.

    Australian students are ranked seventh at reading and science and 13th at maths.

    Ms Gillard said improving teacher quality would be central to meeting these results.

    ”Under our plan, you will need to be at the top of your class to get into a university teaching class,” she said.

    I am honestly not certain how this is going to be achieved as according to the UAI/ATAR cut-offs 2011 were 90.00 for Primary Teaching however, were a lowly 80.30-82.45 for Secondary courses. Clearly very bright students are entering Primary school teaching but Secondary courses are less desirable. How do get the higher achievers into Secondary? The only answer to pay them more, which is a States’ issue.

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/pm-pledges-to-push-for-better-teachers-to-make-the-grade-20120903-25ai2.html#ixzz25UUFTCjx

  58. Min,

    My understanding for secondary teachers is that many do a specialist degree first – Maths, Science or Arts – then go on to add the teaching qualifications post-grad… The teachers with only the undergrad education degree aren’t rated very highly in the various school systems…

    I know a few secondary teachers, but the one to ask would be Nas – he’s a secondary teacher with a HOD wife…

  59. Bacchus, things are different since I studied teaching. The numbers I quoted were the UAI/ATARI – that is Universities Admission Index/Australian Tertiary Admission Index and so relate to HSC graduates.

  60. I would be interested in the employment outcomes from graduates from the various universities Min.To relate your figures to Qld, the cutoff for B Ed for 2012 was OP13. Niece studied a few years ago – dual degree Psych + Ed. She had OP2 (1 is the highest) and has been employed since graduation (Primary school), but came close to missing out on a couple of occasions.

    How do those who come in with OP13 and just an undergrad B Ed fare in actually getting a job after graduation?

  61. Further to that, another teacher I know completed a Maths degree, and then followed that with a post-grad Education qualification (not sure what exactly that was). He has been employed in the private school sector since graduation.

    Another woman I know, completed an Arts degree, followed up with Education qualification, and worked for many years as a secondary English teacher. She also completed a Masters in Education and was working in the Dept of Education setting the statewide curriculum last I met her.

    The key from this seems to be more than just the basic B Ed is needed to actually work in the system, especially secondary.

    As I said earlier, Nas would have the most insight into the reality here…

  62. Difficult to say Bacchus..I’ve known kids who just scraped by for their yr 12 but then thrived once at uni. Either which way, I’m not certain how they are going to attract more “quality” to teaching without having their pay on par with other professions. Also, exams results do not necessarily a good teacher make..I found that aptitude plus enthusiasm for the job are at least of equal importance.

  63. Majoring in wine selection and appreciation and sub majoring in how to follow a particular footy team and still be able to smile. 😉

  64. listen to the song Whisperers and then I invite those who have been less than pleasant to Moi here to consider the Irony of their behaviour in a post that is trying to endorse the sentiments of Lennon’s song.

  65. Imagine all the people living life in peace

    IF YA’ MAN ENOUGH!!

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

    I’m quite happy to be accomodating to people, but buggered if I’ll sit around and let someone bully and lie to people without a challenge. I reckon there are others here who might feel the same way.

  66. Tom R
    Its clear that you don’t understand what Lennon was saying in this song, namely that everyone should be prepared to forgive, forget animosities and move on to a more caring sharing future. That you and others who have claimed to believe in that message have been so keen to attack the one person here who questions the possibility of such sentiments being made manifest in the world is beyond Ironic, in fact it smacks of hypocrisy.
    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :lol::lol: 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 :

  67. We need to remember that the brightest just not make the best teachers. This fact has been recognise for years that this is also true when it comes to medicine.

    Many uni’s use more than the scores a student obtains at their last year of school.

    Yes, we need bright kids to enter the filed, but they need more that that to become good teachers. They need many more skills and a love and desire to teach.

    Yes, wages count. We have bought down the class sizes, at the same time expecting teachers to spend more time before the classes. This is a big difference to Finland and other leading countries.

    The teacher have less face to face teaching. They have more time for preparation and research.

    Teaching, to me, is the only profession I know of, that people with no training or involvement, know better than the experts. It appears that politicians are the only ont of knowledge, when it comes to the education of our kids.

    It is time to stop .running the profession down, and give it the credit it deserves. That does not take money.

  68. I think that we might just have found some common ground Here CU insofar as I also agree that teaching is more a vocation than something that any teacher just does for the pay cheque. My wife teaches Music and I have a few friends who are teachers as well, the good ones just have that fire in the belly for teaching.

  69. Tom
    Who here has offered to make peace only to have his offer rejected by someone with a fondness for extinct flying reptiles and deriding his interlocutors ?

  70. Because something is seen as a vocation, should not mean they do the job for love. They, along with every other worker deserve to be fully recompensed for their effort, and deserve respect.

    We have moved past that position with nurses, lesser extent with welfare workers, and now is time for teachers to be given the same respect.

    It has been a long time since students entered teaching, because they had no other option to gain a tertiary education.

    Good teachers need exceptional aptitudes and innate skills. Not all are able to reach the standard required.

  71. The insults keep coming. I have come to the conclusion, he just does not see that they are.

    I like to think we can aim for a more peaceful world. Yes, if attacked, we defend ourselves. In this one has no choice.

    Also is true, a more peaceful world will not eventuate out of the muzzle of a gun.

    It will only occur, when the world has become a more equal place. When the gap between poverty and wealth is narrowed.

    When we respect all races and nationalities.

    I believe it will come, as the world becomes more globalised.

    If one does not believe, they will not try and things will not improve, in fact they will worsen.

    The people who live in countries of poverty, are not going to sit there, taking what we dished out for them.

    I am at a lost to know why one would spend so much time and energy, saying the future cannot be better. .

  72. who here has shown his honesty and committment wrt to “making peace” by failing to withdraw offensive and plainly wrong slurs on another?

    who is of the opinion that couching within such an “offer” yet another snark can even be remotely taken seriously? 😆

    who won’t commit to honesty and truth in argument?

    who repeatedly asserts alleged “abuse” of himself. but is unable to back up his claims with any evidence?

    who discards evidence which shows that he is incorrect, and/or lying, even when the evidence provided is either quoted, without loss or misrepresentation from his own words, or by linking appropriately?

    who thinks he knows more about climate science than the world’s experts in the field.(s)?

    who thinks his plainly hypocritical claim offer to “make peace” was rejected?
    hint : “qualification” is not equal to “rejection” 😀

    who apparently considers others of insufficient mental calibre to see through his lies, misrepresentations, and smears, with the sort of arrogance that can only be grounded in ignorance?

    who apparently hates the “noughts and ones” so much, that he daily sacrifices millions to inconsequential verbiage, mistaking quantity for quality?

    a troll 🙄

  73. @ Cu 10:22 am

    I like to think we can aim for a more peaceful world. Yes, if attacked, we defend ourselves. In this one has no choice.

    indeed – a master once said to me that
    “the only fight you can win is the one you don’t have” – good advice, considering his antecedents, (SAS, several martial arts) i feel that to be prepared for the worst, but seek the best.:grin: while heeding this advice, can be part of the basis of a viable future.

    Also is true, a more peaceful world will not eventuate out of the muzzle of a gun.

    precisely, mao was pretty right in his observation that political power (often) does do so, though.

    which poses the dilemma our civilisation faces as we look forward beyond tomorrow, and it becomes obvious that the road to equality (in every) sense is the only one that can lead to a resolution with positive outcomes for all, and the environment upon which we universally depend.

    the major trouble i have with rightist “thinking” is that so accustomed to self-delusion that it has become, that their purported “thinkers” assume all others must share their delusions and dishonesty. which in turn leads to the projection of these traits on all who threaten the integrity of their delusions, for instance by pointing out “inconvenient truths”. 😀

    the right is apparently oblivious to the fact that reality is “the decider-in=chief” with regard to the world upon which we all ultimately depend, and that their lies can only be self-defeating.

    Rather pathetic, if one ignores their evident malice, and the real threats they pose.

  74. Abbott’s stunt is late today. Still carbon tax.

    Still ignoring good economy news.

    Nothing worth listening to.

    Same old rot.

    Dutton in tow. Must be in Queensland.
    he has better policies. Why not give us some details of what they are.

    He is promising what Howard did, and fail to carry out over twelve years.

    A fete sentences and slogans on many topics, that do not seem to gel together.

  75. They were in Ballarat earlier. Abbott copped a fair amount of criticism from callers on the talkback radio, according to a local. Not sure of the details.

  76. Catching up @ 10:14 am

    Because something is seen as a vocation, should not mean they do the job for love. They, along with every other worker deserve to be fully recompensed for their effort, and deserve respect.

    Oh I agree with you that teachers are worth higher pay

    We have moved past that position with nurses, lesser extent with welfare workers, and now is time for teachers to be given the same respect.

    And You know what will happen if teachers are too well paid? Schools will find ways to employ fewer teachers, just as fewer nurses and welfare workers are expected to d more now.

    It has been a long time since students entered teaching, because they had no other option to gain a tertiary education.

    Agreed

    Good teachers need exceptional aptitudes and innate skills. Not all are able to reach the standard required.

    Sure no contest on that from me.
    Catching up @ 10:22 am

    The insults keep coming. I have come to the conclusion, he just does not see that they are.

    If you see may plain speaking as insults you shouldn’t because I have absolutely intention to insult you or anyone else here.

    I like to think we can aim for a more peaceful world. Yes, if attacked, we defend ourselves. In this one has no choice.

    And that goes for me as well

    Also is true, a more peaceful world will not eventuate out of the muzzle of a gun.

    There are times when I would agree with you on that and other times when I know that singing “imagine” will never be enough.

    It will only occur, when the world has become a more equal place. When the gap between poverty and wealth is narrowed.

    Which is precisely why I don’t expect the sentiments of the song to be fulfilled any time soon

    When we respect all races and nationalities.

    I believe it will come, as the world becomes more globalised.

    Well I’m not as optimistic as you are.

    If one does not believe, they will not try and things will not improve, in fact they will worsen.

    The people who live in countries of poverty, are not going to sit there, taking what we dished out for them.

    I am at a lost to know why one would spend so much time and energy, saying the future cannot be better. .

    There are lots of reasons to think that its not “us” at all who are causing those countries to live in poverty often its a failure of their own societies to provide good governance or even sound administration that is the real problem
    Tom R @ 10:46 am

    I see that ian aint man enough sigh 😦

    🙄

    pterosaur1 @ 10:58 am

    who here has shown his honesty and committment wrt to “making peace” by failing to withdraw offensive and plainly wrong slurs on another?

    Do you understand what a “quid pro quo” is? because I don’t think so in this context it means that we each forgive the other any sins of slurs that have been exchanged and then we agree not to repeat them. Now you seem to be working on the assumption that I am the only sinner here when it comes to the utterance of nasty things about my interlocutors.

    who is of the opinion that couching within such an “offer” yet another snark can even be remotely taken seriously? 😆

    Well given the fact that this is not the first time I have tried to make peace with you its hardly surprising that my expectations of success are low and my cynicism is high.

    who won’t commit to honesty and truth in argument?

    I have always argued with you in good faith and presented my arguments with honesty and truth.

    who repeatedly asserts alleged “abuse” of himself. but is unable to back up his claims with any evidence?

    Really? besides the fact that you have insisted on referring to me as “troll” and other negative epithets like “denier” in just about every comment you have addressed to me do I really have to go back and cite each instance of your own abusive behaviour before you can recognise it as such?

    who discards evidence which shows that he is incorrect, and/or lying, even when the evidence provided is either quoted, without loss or misrepresentation from his own words, or by linking appropriately?

    Hang on that is a terribly self-serving piece of convoluted logic, essentially you are making an appeal to the authority of your sources and suggesting that they are beyond question and that anyone (like Moi) who fails to acknowledge the authority of your sources must therefore be dishonest. Mate that is utter crap.

    who thinks he knows more about climate science than the world’s experts in the field.(s)?

    Show me where I have ever claimed that, I’ll save you the trouble of looking because I have NEVER made such a claim, however I also refuse to genuflect to anyone in a white coat who says “trust me I’m a scientist” or their sycophants who say “if they are scientists then they must be correct”.

    who thinks his plainly hypocritical claim offer to “make peace” was rejected?
    hint : “qualification” is not equal to “rejection” 😀

    Is that you back handed way of saying that you would make peace If I offer you an apology?

    who apparently considers others of insufficient mental calibre to see through his lies, misrepresentations, and smears, with the sort of arrogance that can only be grounded in ignorance?

    I am a humble man with absolutely no tickets on myself and as I don’t actually use either lies, misrepresentation or “smears” (I don’t consider sarcasm to be a smear”

    who apparently hates the “noughts and ones” so much, that he daily sacrifices millions to inconsequential verbiage, mistaking quantity for quality?

    a troll

    Although I have been known to call computers “Instruments of the devil” I am quite fond of those noughts and ones and I don’t consider any that I send out into the ether to be wasted.

  77. the States cannot find ways of employing less teachers due to minimum class sizes.

    Perhaps they could borrows hockeys calculator to get the class sizes they want. 30 kids will equal 20 with hockeynomics 😉 Problem Solvered 🙂

  78. Min there is little reason to think that class sizes are set in stone, especially when it comes to modern technology and its eternal encroachment on things like teaching

  79. Iain, the kids still have to go to school and be taught whether they use computers or pencils and psper. They still have to be supervised. Their work still has to be marked.

  80. Iain, a computer is but a piece of equipment. Does a camera give you the ability to take 1st class photos? Nor does being in a class of 35 others. It’s the one on one tuition which provides maximum benefit.

  81. Computers actually add to the workload for most teachers. It is just another tool for the students to learn. Luckily, to date, the basics of maths etc are still taught. There is just the added complexity of learning to do this things with a computer.

    Luckily, stupidity like learning txting is no longer on the table, but I pity these teachers, many who themselves are still getting up to date on computers, having to deal with a room full of kids on them. Even worst, many of these kids are very computer savvy, and spend a lot of their time trying to disrupt and simply cause havoc on these machines. I have to admit, I have laughed at some of the stories my kids come home with (yes, I know, I’m going to hell), but, then I think of the aggravation this must cause the teachers. Particularly those who are not very computer literate. Add to that the issues with mobile phones and an inter-connected classroom. My son told me his mates phone has my sons number marked as ‘dad’. His mate told the teacher he was of sick the day before, and the teacher asked for proof. He got my kid to send a text, which he showed him from his ‘dad’s’ number.

    Cheeky buggers, but just another thing teachers have to contend with these days. I do not envy them at all.

  82. troll
    when you are able to put substance to ANY of the slurs you have made against me then you may be entitled to request a “quid pro quo”

    without evidence of my alleged ”transgressions” you propose that if i would just accept that i’m mean to you, because you say so, and ignore your lies, slurs and deceit, you would be “nice” to me? 🙄

  83. pterosaur1 @ 4:35 pm

    troll
    when you are able to put substance to ANY of the slurs you have made against me then you may be entitled to request a “quid pro quo”

    I have said that you are abusive and you respond by referring to me in an abusive manner yet you still think that I am the only one with something to apologise for

    without evidence of my alleged ”transgressions” you propose that if i would just accept that i’m mean to you, because you say so, and ignore your lies, slurs and deceit, you would be “nice” to me? 🙄

    You can’t say that I haven’t tried to make peace here but it seems to me that you are so lacking in self awareness that you don’t realise just how bad you have been behaving.
    🙄

  84. Imagine that..IAIN…I’m surprise you haven’t critiqued his work
    Imagine there’s no Heaven
    ” blah blah blah bah”.
    Its easy if you can
    ” blah blah blah bah”.

    Yeah Iain he has all your records too mate.

    Great documentary, America V John Lennon.

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