Tony Abbott’s “scare campaign was a fraud”

Tony Abbott isn’t getting the message: he needs to shut his mouth to prevent putting a foot in it. He has been given plenty of opportunities this week to learn this simple lesson.

In his latest epic fail he today he admitted to the Tasmanian State Council that:

. . . . the initial impact of the carbon tax may not be absolutely catastrophic.

What happened to the wrecking ball? What happened to Whyalla? What about those 1,001 visits to every butcher, baker and candle-stick maker with dire warnings that their business was doomed?

In a flash Wayne Swan jumped on the comment from Abbott that the impact of the carbon tax has not been catastrophic, declaring his “scare campaign was a fraud”.

I’m hoping, via this short post, that we of the Café might also take the opportunity to jump on the comment.

I encourage a free-for-all. Spare the man no mercy.

Monday is officially “Pick on Tony Abbott Day”.

no carbon tax

(Photo credit: Leonard John Matthews)

274 comments on “Tony Abbott’s “scare campaign was a fraud”

  1. Perhaps it was not a fraud. Perhaps it was misguided enthusiasm. Tony (I have chosen to do unto him what he does to my Prime Minister) is not a great reader and so often simply repeats what he is told. Perfectly understandable. Could it be that he is being led astray by others with their own agendas?

    I have asked him a number of questions about his wonderfully convincing Direct Action scheme.
    http://archiearchive.wordpress.com/2012/08/26/open-letter-to-tony-and-greg/

    Hmmm – then again, he could just be a liar and a bully and a cheat. Judging by his documented past, I think that is most likely. And he still doesn’t read, or comprehend very much!

  2. Tony Abbott is one nasty piece that needs his tongue cut out. Or better still kicked out of politics all together. We don’t need a miserable nasty piece like him in parliament. We don’t need a PM who is hell bent on destroying people’s lives and destroying the country all because he mummy said he is going to be PM or pope. He is no good for either.

  3. Well it looks like Abbott is correct

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/taxes-a-drag-on-coal-kloppers-warns-investors-20120823-24oyp.html

    BHP Billiton head Marius Kloppers has told European investors that Australia’s carbon and mining taxes have helped to render the nation’s coal industry unworthy of further investment at this time.”

    The ALP is the party of the unforeseen stuffup. I suspect that the govt will now get less tax money because of the mining and carbon taxes. Investors will go elsewhere.

  4. Archie, the man has little in the way of comprehension skills. Good luck with your questions.

    Given his recent demonstrated lack of diving into important reading material, I doubt he would have even read his own policy.

  5. Neil, no they won’t. Didn’t hear much from Kloppers about the intense pressure he has been under from investors to actually pay them a dividend. Google
    It it’s pretty interesting. Kloppers has been overall a bad CEO.
    “Marius Kloppers…. funnily enough not Gina Rinehart whose own coal project was approved on the very same day…. is facing scrutiny concerning his current employment. Kloppers tenure which is detailed, has overseen a capital collapse in BHP-Billiton’s shareprice, under scrutiny concerning his judgement over failed takeover bids and mergers and purchases, projects currently exposed to cost blowouts, write downs worth lazy billions, cannot for the life of him announce further projects satisfying speculation on BHP’s shareprice while swamped in these certain conflicted losses.

    May well this man bat off questions concerning further acquisitions and attempting added projects after performing the most elegant back flip after the major shareholders in BHP-Billiton have pro-actively campaigned against this Kloppers demanding BHP cease pandering to their inflated ego and aggressive attempts to expand and instead distribute some of the windfall with shareholders as an actual dividend. “

  6. “Well it looks like Abbott is correct”
    Typing this statement is the fastest way that one can lose all credibility on the intrawebs.

  7. “waste of taxpayers money on flights for himself and his staff”

    I have forever complaining about the flights he takes from one end of the country to the other, to put on his daily stunt of a few minutes, with a new back drop.

    Do we paid for the media to accompany him. Id not this pure electioneering, that should be paid for by his party.

  8. Kitkat, I believe that Kloppers has made more than one bad business decisions in the USA.

    If this had not occurred they mat have been able to cope with the cost better.

    He also said they were investigation cheaper options. He gave the impressions that a cheaper way existed. He also stressed that they were postponing, not abandoning.

    I suggest the scheme was dropped because it simply in it’s present mode is not feasible and has little to do with the government or taxes.

    BHP were simply greedy and over reached themselves.

  9. Neil, he would say that, would he not. Still did not have the guts to say it within the country, to the shareholders or the Stock Exchange,

    Neil, that is because he cannot lie to either. If he did, the company would be in big trouble.

    He had to tell the truth, and what he said is open to scrutiny. He would have to prove that that the taxes and government were to blame

    His problem would be, that he could not.

    Therefore he struck to the truth.

    Therefore what Kloppers says after, holds little credence.

  10. Update: Federal Coalition MP Andrew Laming says he takes full responsibility for the ‘liking’ of a sexist Facebook page about Prime Minister Julia Gillard.
    brisbanetimes.com.au this morning reported that Mr Laming had “blamed his staff” for liking the page: “How’s Julia Gillard going to run the country from the kitchen?” on his Facebook page.
    The Oxford Dictionary defines ‘blame’ as “assign fault or responsibility to; assign the responsibility for (an error or wrong) to a person”.

    Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/technology/technology-news/blame-wars-mp-accepts-responsibility-for-gillard-in-kitchen-furore-20111102-1mvbi.html#ixzz24gDKAuiQ

    https://www.facebook.com/lamingeo/photos

    or this. Pure lies

    When the Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard referred to those spreading rumours about her on the Internet as misogynist and nut jobs, she could easily have included the Liberal Party’s Federal Member for Bowman Andrew Laming in that group.

    The Liberal Party describes Laming as Australia’s most innovative user of social media in politics.

    http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/those-misogynist-nut-jobs-on-internet.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/UtodS+(North+Coast+Voices)

    The whole party are frauds and liars.

    Has anyone, including our visitors, been able to come up with similar site from a Labor MP.

    This sums it all up.


    http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/those-misogynist-nut-jobs-on-internet.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/UtodS+(North+Coast+Voices)

  11. Nick Xenophon, Senator for South Australia, has introduced a Bill into Parliament that would let employers dramatically slash weekend and overtime penalty rates.

    Already some of Australia’s biggest companies have lined up behind Senator Xenophon’s proposed new laws to slash weekend penalty rates.

    Take action today and send Senator Xenophon an email telling him that Saturday and Sunday are not just another day of the week but important days for families and communities and should be protected.

    Please feel free to get in touch with us about anything. We read every email you send us, and if you’ve asked for a response we’ll be in touch shortly

    http://www.rightsatwork.com.au/Home/Campaigns/Send-Message.aspx?documentId=2007

  12. Labor hauls back Libs’ poll lead

    THE Gillard government has narrowed the Coalition’s lead to be in its best position in six months, in an Age/Nielsen poll showing overwhelming public support for the decision to process asylum seekers offshore.
    For the second consecutive month, a majority of voters said the carbon tax was making no difference to them.
    But federal Labor would still be trounced by a 4 per cent swing in an election held now, and the ALP ”brand” received another setback with the decisive weekend defeat of the Northern Territory government, with a 6 per cent swing against Labor.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/labor-hauls-back-libs-poll-lead-20120826-24ull.html#ixzz24gIpP3tn

  13. For someone who is, supposedly, a Rhodes scholar, he doesn’t seem to be very good at reading.
    Maybe it’s a roads scholarship, found beside the M1. 🙄 😆 😆

  14. Gillard goes backwards in the PPM and/or satisfaction no matter how small the amount and it’s a crash. Abbott goes backwards in the same indicators, no matter how big the amount and it’s a slip.

  15. Möbius, I anticipate that the Neilsen poll will rapidly disappear..anything positive about the government can be counted as blink and you’ll miss it.

  16. The whole point of the Carbon tax is to drive us into using renewables (solar, ethanol). The ultimate aim of the Carbon tax is to destroy our largest export producer- the coal mining industry, otherwise why bring it in.

    The mining tax will also slow down mining. Anytime you tax something more it changes behaviour.

  17. Imagine the fun we could have with Liealott and a lie detector apparatus!!!! If only. Then again to watch a one on one debate with Julia would be the best verbal mauling of the century!!!

  18. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/greens-would-shut-a-coal-industry-worth-60bn-in-export-revenues/story-e6frg906-1226083073173

    THE stated aim of Greens leader Bob Brown to replace the coal industry with renewable energy would, if it could somehow be achieved, wipe out an industry that directly and indirectly employs about 140,000 people and is to contribute $60 billion to Australia’s export revenue next year.

    Black coal is the nation’s biggest export earner and Australia is the world’s biggest exporter of the fuel and steelmaking material, which mostly ends up in Asian power stations and steel mills.

    Speaking to ABC TV’s Insiders on Sunday, Mr Brown said the aim of an Australian carbon tax should be to shut down the local industry.”

  19. Neil is partly right and it’s working, but it will take a long time to have coal replaced. But the whole point is not to only drive us into renewables but also to gain efficiencies from current non-renewables, which is also happening, also proving the carbon price is working as Abbott Liar once said it would.

    It’s estimated an entire power station in Victoria and NSW is being used just to power the wasted energy each State produces. You only need look in Melbourne or Sydney at night to see the thousands of empty offices all with lights still on and equipment running to understand the scale of the wasted energy.

    In the meantime the price of renewables is getting to the stage of replacing coal anyway. So will Neil jump up and down bemoaning the loss of all those jobs when coal, which is slowly destroying the planet, is replaced by other technologies and resources?

    Of course he won’t as that doesn’t allow him to blame a Labor government, which is all Neil has ever been about. And if coal declines under a Liberal government you won’t hear boo out of Neil or he will say what a good thing it is.

    But the carbon tax on coal had nothing to do with Koppers decision of having to postpone the Olympic Dam expansion. Here we see yet another Right Wing attempt to blame a Labor government for a private industry failure.

  20. “Neil is partly right “.

    I’ve never heard anybody say that before. It’s good to see someone give credit to someone else’s argument instead of simply attacking it.

    I like that.

  21. Former Prime Minister John Howard has urged Opposition Leader Tony Abbott to bring back individual employment contracts from the Work Choices period.

    Mr Howard also called for a crackdown on unfair dismissal claims against small business in the off-the-record speech to a Westpac forum earlier this month, the Australian Financial Review reports.

    ‘I think we have to address this issue again,’ he said.

    ‘There is no reason why this country should not go back to the workplace system we had between 1996 and 2005 where you had individual contracts.’

    He said something must be done about unfair dismissals but he would leave the timing and the handling of it to Mr Abbott.

    The Work Choices.

    http://bigpondnews.com/articles/Small-Business/2012/08/27/Howard_reopens_Work_Choices_debate.html

  22. ” The ultimate aim of the Carbon tax is to destroy our largest export producer- the coal mining industry, otherwise why bring it in.”

    Yes, a long way down the track. This will occur if they do not find new ways of burning fossil fuels.

    It will not be the cost on carbon emissions that brings this about. It will be that the rest of the world had moved onto a cleaner energy future.

    The cost on carbon emission, is to encourage the development of clean fuel, that emits no carbon.

    If we decide to go it alone, we will find our selves shut out of many markets. This is already occurring with air travel.

    Yes, it is to bring about the end to emitting carbon into the atmosphere, while encouraging cleaner technology,, which will also provide jobs and exports.

    Something we once led the world in.

  23. Yep, Individual Contracts = WorkChoices

    You cannot have WorkChoices without individual contracts and it is them that give employers unfair power over employees, which is why they are pushing so hard to get them back in.

    Also you cannot step onto each worker being a contractor without first having individual contracts, and that is the end game of employers, workers as sub-contractors.

    As to Unfair Dismissals, it’s a furphy raised by the Liberals as an excuse to bring in WorkChoices. In business surveys the highest Unfair Dismissals made it onto a list of important items to business was eight.

    Reith and then Howard made a huge deal out of a couple of bad cases, and they were bad no doubt about it, but in the entire history of Unfair Dismissals it has worked with bogus cases more often than not weeded out and genuine cases correctly addressed.

    The Liberals at the behest of their big business masters want employers to have the ability to sack at will so as to hold that over any employee as a means of reducing wages and conditions or getting them to work outside normal hours.

  24. AMES MASSOLA
    Former Prime Minister John Howard has urged Tony Abbott’s Coalition to return to the individual employment contracts of the Work Choices era and to crack down on unfair dismissal claims against small business, claiming that Labor’s reregulation of the jobs market will impose a mounting toll on the economy.
    Mr Howard also used an unguarded and off-the-record speech to a forum hosted by Westpac earlier this month, and obtained by The Australian Financial Review, to argue Labor and Democrat opposition over including food in the goods and ­services tax had created a yawning revenue shortfall for the states.

    http://afr.com/p/national/revive_ir_reform_howard_N8f3wRatkWELbJkEBGK9rM

  25. Mr Howard suggested that Mr Abbott was locked in to opposing the carbon tax for political reasons at the expense of business certainty and admitted his government could have invested more in productivity-boosting infrastructure at the expense of personal tax cuts and family ­payments.
    Pressed during the question and answer session on Mr Abbott’s unrelenting political campaign against the carbon tax and whether the opposition leader should shift his position to give business certainty, Mr Howard effectively admitted the Opposition Leader’s hands were tied by political, rather than policy factors.
    “Tony Abbott is in the political position he is now in because he stared Kevin Rudd down on the subject of the ETS. Whether you agree with that policy position or not, it’s the reason why the Coalition is where it is politically,’’ Mr Howard said.

    http://afr.com/p/national/revive_ir_reform_howard_N8f3wRatkWELbJkEBGK9rM

  26. But can Australia under Abbott go “back to the future”, and reclaim those Glory Days? Yes We Can– if, that is, Abbott can persuade us to start borrowing again like there’s no tomorrow, as we did under John Howard.

    Political rhetoric has always focused on public debt, and on that front John Howard’s greatest hit was that he halved Australia’s public debt, while either side of him, Labor governments let that debt blow out.
    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Tony-Abbott-John-Howard-debt-borrowing-

    Many more interesting graphs on the site.

  27. The resources at Olympic Dam are uranium, copper and gold, none of which is subject to the MRRT. If anything, global action on climate change should have been expected to boost uranium demand, but the price of uranium oxide has fallen from a peak of $US290/kg in 2007 to around $US110 now, the Fukushima accident and the tumbling price of gas and photovoltaics having dampened any expectation of a price recovery.

    Even if Abbott hadn’t read the company statement, he could have scored a partisan point by blaming environmentalists for damaging the reputation of uranium. Or is he is so ignorant of the Australian economy that he does not know that Australia has the world’s largest known uranium deposit at Olympic Dam? Had he read the statement he could have focussed on the poor performance of the company’s metallurgical coal mining in Queensland, which has been subject to a long dispute between management and the unions. A conservative politician of Peter Reith’s calibre would surely have been able to lay some of the blame on the Government’s Fair

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/08/27/mining-puts-tony-out-his-depth

  28. Inconvenient fact.

    In the present resource boom the price peak is well behind us. Contrary to popular opinion, it was the Howard government in its last term, not the present government, that enjoyed the boost in metal prices. Base metal prices started to rise in 2005, and peaked in mid-2007. They fell sharply during the 2008 crisis, and rose again but only to resume their falling trajectory.

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/08/27/mining-puts-tony-out-his-depth

  29. Abbott’s comments, however, were not those of a competent, well-briefed opposition leader. Senator Arthur Sinodinos tried to excuse his performance as one of the normal stumbles that busy people make when under stress. We all experience such stumbles — a slipped word, a forgotten figure, a mistaken name. Abbott’s performance was no mere stumble, however: it was the behaviour of one who is out of his depth on issues of public policy. He showed that he knew little of Australia’s mining industry, and that he lacked the judgement to ask for a brief, perhaps from shadow Minister Ian Macfarlane or one of his staff.

    Whatever one’s partisan perspective, thes…..

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/08/27/mining-puts-tony-out-his-depth

  30. The Rabbott who cried ‘Wolf!’

    The shock jock partisans who cried ‘Wolf!’

    The News Limited partisans who cried ‘Wolf!’

    Their ABC partisans who cried ‘Wolf!’

    …At this rate soon no one will believe a word the Hate Media say about anything.

    (Except of course Liberal brain donors – they believe any old rubbish the LIEberal Party media spoonfeeds them.)

  31. Whose fault that the media cannot do their job. It appears they would rather report Abbott’s rubbish in Queensland, than have the PM’s views on what Howard ghats said.

    I am sure, this is what the public, especially would be interested in.

    So it is up to the media to decide what we are interested in????

    WITH former Liberal prime minister John Howard’s praise for the economy and a further climb in the polls, Julia Gillard had a lot to say today.

    The Prime Minister’s problem was that nobody gave her much of a chance.

    The Government also is using Mr Howard’s confidential advice to banking executives to claim Opposition Leader Tony Abbott wants to re-introduce the discredited Work Choices laws.

    And a Nielsen opinion poll in Fairfax newspapers gave Labor a six-month high of 46 per cent of the two-party preferred vote to the Coalition’s 54 per cent.

    Mr Abbott has declared Work Choices dead and cremated, and the polling still points to Labor’s devastation at the elections scheduled for late next year, but the Government wanted to go on the offensive.

    However, the Prime Minister was disappointed when reporters covering her appearance at a charity event in Sydney didn’t insist on a door-stop interview – an ad-hoc press conference.

    Ms Gillard was almost in her car at Old Customs House before getting a few questions about the polling and BHP’s latest moves.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/prime-minister-had-plenty-to-say-but-few-were-listening/story-fndo4eg9-1226458963024

  32. “Mr Howard suggested that Mr Abbott was locked in to opposing the carbon tax for political reasons at the expense of business certainty and admitted his government could have invested more in productivity-boosting infrastructure at the expense of personal tax cuts and family ­payments.”

    My Bold. Still lying through his teeth the little rodent. Howard had ten years to do that and at every opportunity bribed the public at the expense of public infrastructure and services. So for him to now come out and say he would have done the opposite to what he did for a decade is to believe that Abbot is a honest and positive leader.

    And if Howard is telling the truth then he’s admitting what Labor have been doing is correct and what the Liberals have been proposing in opposition is wrong.

  33. Actually, ME, what really made individual contracts a killer under WorkChoices is when they were combined with the removal of unfair dismissal laws for the vast bulk of Australia’s business. AWA’s had been in place for close to a decade, but had a very, very low take up rate. The moment the changes to unfair dismissal changes came in, you had over 1 million workers signed on to AWA’s within barely 18 months! Not a coincidence, I think!

  34. Back to the past. As they say, you cannot have one without the other,.. That is there must be a cap, if one is offering places where ones pays.

    The Federal Government says the Opposition has tied itself in knots and in doing so has revealed its “radical” higher education agenda.

    As the Coalition’s education spokesman Christopher Pyne tried to scotch speculation about plans to raise the cost of university courses and limit the number of student places, he pledged the Coalition would bring back full fee-paying places for Australian students.

    The Federal Government has been trying for months to flush out the Coalition’s higher education policy, without success.

    The Opposition has argued the exact details depend on many things, including the state of the Commonwealth’s finances.

    It has now shed some light after a weekend report that the Coalition’s razor gang is considering whether to charge students 25 per cent more for their degrees and put a cap on university places, which Labor removed in 2007.

    Mr Pyne released a brief statement saying, “the Coalition has no plans to increase university fees or cap places”.

    “Only the Coalition supports bringing back full fee-paying places for Australian domestic students”, which is currently restricted to overseas students.

    “That alone would give universities greater freedom to grow.”

    Tertiary Education Minister Chris Evans does not accept Mr Pyne’s assurances, claiming an Abbott-led government would cut higher education spending and pass the costs onto students.

    “Conservative governments both under Howard and in the UK, when they have to find money, they attack tertiary education,” Senator Evans said.

    “With a $70 billion black hole, they’re going to have to find savings measures elsewhere to fund paying Rio and BHP back the super tax on their mining profit.”

    AUDIO: Listen to the story (AM)
    ‘Elite group’
    Senator Evans says even if the Coalition did not cap places or raise fees, it could not possibly deliver on its third promise because no-one would opt to pay the full cost of a degree if they had the choice of a Commonwealth-subsidised place.

    “If there’s no cap, then there’s no market for people to pay the full fee,” he said.

    “They could access a Commonwealth-supported place.

    “What the Liberals are going to do now is make a cap on the number of places, which means only a select group, an elite group will get Commonwealth-supported places and other people will have to pay the full fees.

    “Which means, quite frankly, only those with the capacity to pay $30,000 a year or more will be able to access those places at university.”

    Mr Pyne’s office says the Coalition will reveal its higher education policy sometime before the next election.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-27/am-on-higher-education/4224512

  35. I believe that million figure was fudged.

    Some double/triple counting went on where each renewal of an AWA was counted as a new singing, and I believe Howard forced AWAs onto public servants also boosting the numbers.

    I read the estimated real number but can’t remember it.

  36. Cu @2.45pm and,

    it was the behaviour of one who is out of his depth on issues of public policy. He showed that he knew little of Australia’s mining industry..

    Plus too egotistical to ask. Abbott believes he is Mr People Skills and that’s about you need to run a country. Unfortunately he’s wrong, on both.

  37. “counted as a new singing”.

    I doubt if workers were singing each time they signed an AWA. Doh!

  38. We in my department of the Public Service had little choice. All new employees had to sign an AWA. Existing employees were ‘encouraged’ to sign one, a move they later regretted.

    In my case my salary went up $9K a year when Workchoices was canned and salaries were negotiated with the union.

  39. Cu, exactly what the Libs have in mind back to the good old days when only the children of the wealthy could afford a university standard education. Society has gone to wrack and ruin since they started educating those who should realise where they belong.

  40. Apparently AWA’s is one reason the mining boom took off. Nobody would work for award wages in the Pilbara. AWA’s allowed mining companies to pay workers higher wages which they would not have been able to do under the award system

  41. AWA’s allowed mining companies to pay workers higher wages

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

    i’ll bet those miners were falling over themselves in their efforts to pay their employees more !

  42. Neil, I am sure the boom would have went ahead without AWA.’s.

    The prices were high. The market good. What percentage do you believe that wages play in the cost of production. Not that high, I would imagine, in this day of high technology.

    Do not forget, we have been looking at super profits.

  43. Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has moved to shut down speculation the Coalition will return to WorkChoices, saying there will be “no going back to the past”.
    Earlier today, the government seized on a call from John Howard to return to individual employment contracts, saying you could ”bet your bottom dollar” that Mr Abbott would bring back WorkChoices.
    “Let’s face it: John Howard is two prime ministers ago, John Howard is three Liberal leaders ago. That was then, this is now,” Mr Abbott told reporters in Mackay today.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/workchoices-belongs-in-the-past-says-abbott-20120827-24v6f.html#ixzz24j68tgiA

  44. Cu, he can move as much as he likes to shut down speculation, but he’ll never convince us that they aren’t his intentions.

  45. Neil, I am sure the boom would have went ahead without AWA.’s.

    How would you get truck drivers to the Pilbara if you only pay award wages??

  46. Neil, the only people at the mines on AWAs are those who the highly skilled tradies call the veggies, otherwise known as maintenance workers. They are permanents and compared with the highly paid FIFOers earn zip.

  47. I believe that workers are capable of getting together to work our wages, to there mutual agreement.

    There is no law or convention that says, one cannot pay above award wages.

    There are only problems if they pay below.

    Are you telling me as a boss, that you believed that you had to pay according to the award. If so, I question your ability to manage.

  48. Migs, I doubt that Abbott seriously knows what his intentions are. He’s a dog’s breakfast when it come to policy, no?

  49. Past History tells us that the Libs will return to something that is equivalent to Work Choices just renamed. They are devoid of any new ideas and return to the same old crap time and time again. Public education is not high on their list of must improve lists.

  50. Handyrab, to Abbott, being Prime Minister means he gets to sleep in The Lodge each night. That’s all the country needs.

    Nothing else to do. Nothing else matters.

  51. It’s not just there IR policy that is rubbish, there telecommunications policy is also rubbish.

    Here is a link to IA on there policy. It brings in a few truths on what there policy is, RUBBISH.

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/2012/politics/trusting-the-coalition-to-deliver-superfast-broadband/

    And here is the Liberal policy, do not know how old it is but it is back to the past.
    http://www.liberal.org.au/~/media/Files/Policies%20and%20Media/Infrastructure/Broadband%20and%20Telecommunications%20Policy.ashx

  52. The Lodge sounds like a nice place. Might buy it when I sell the house I’m in.
    It could go for a song, no? 😀

  53. I don’t understand the discussion. Of course Workchoices will be reintroduced, along with TPVs and any other relic of the “golden” Howard era that the LNP look upon with such fond memory. Any reform since the Howard years will be scrapped equally as quickly – the net result being Hockey (in place of Costello) pissing billions against the wall giving tax cuts to all to buy their vote at the next election – instead of provision of infrastructure that will assist us to find our next marketing edge (knowledge and skills) when noboby wants our iron or coal any more.

  54. Forgetting Abbott for the moment (ah peace at last), does anyone here (leading question) have any confidence in anyone else on the LNP front bench? No?

  55. You are joking, I hope.

    The lodge would be a bad buy. Leaking roof, asbestos. crapped out plumbing. Really needs replacing. I believe it was a temporary home on the first place. Beautiful gardens and block of land I believe.

  56. Will someone tell me why the Liberals after as Mr. Abbott said three leaders ago are still pushing Howard’s agenda.

    One that the voters threw out, along with him.

    Not a new idea since 2007.

  57. Was having an argument with a friend on politics and asked him what the coalition policies were and all he could say were the three word slogans, stop the boats, blamed the carbon tax etc, i gave up trying to convince him other wise on the good things this govt have done, went in one ear and out the other. So I walked away.

  58. Everything from the top shelf in rack G of the southern wing will be a good start. Assuming of course that Bacchus hasn’t raided it. 😦

  59. IMRE SALUSINSZKY From: The Australian August 26, 2012 9:38PM

    JOHN Howard has agreed to saddle up again for the Liberal Party and will help guide the NSW division towards a plebiscite model for selecting its state and federal parliamentary candidates.

    The former prime minister’s willingness to join an “eminent persons” committee on constitutional reform in NSW marks his first direct involvement in internal Liberal Party affairs since losing office in November 2007.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/howard-to-help-steer-state-party-reform/story-e6frgczx-1226458461731

  60. AWA’s allowed mining companies to pay workers higher wages which they would not have been able to do under the award system

    Wrong again, Noddy, people can be paid “over award” wages in any job … Awards only determine the minimum conditions and pay … a company can pay anything it wants, if its over the ward and did for decades … probably before you were a twinkle in your father’s eye (assuming you have one) …

    Individual contracts were also available as common law contracts (I was employed on number of them) … however they also could not breach the basic awards … what you hero wanted to do (and still does) is to reduce the contracts to an offer from the company setting its own “standards” … like my 18 yo g/son negotiating a contract with Woolies or IGA … yeah … wh’ll get the best of that deal …

    Your naivety and lack of work and life experience is, once again .. astounding … Noddy … keep up the good fiction …

  61. Will someone tell me why the Liberals after as Mr. Abbott said three leaders ago are still pushing Howard’s agenda.

    I guess small business is not happy with the current IR laws.

    On another topic the ALP when in Opposition said that Howard wasted the mining boom because he handed money back as tax cuts or middle class welfare. Actually Howard/Costello saved $50B from 2004-2007 and paid off all the debt Labor created.

    So what is Labor doing with even bigger mining boom money??? Well they are handing it back as tax cuts and middle class welfare. Furthermore they have not saved one cent but have racked up debt surely faster than any govt in our history.

    Borrowed billions of money from China and China will want it back with interest.

  62. Neil @ 4:53 pm “How would you get truck drivers to the Pilbara if you only pay award wages??”

    Neil we’re more than willing to welcome you back and engage with you in debate, but after being away for so long I would have thought your knowledge on the matters you attempt to speak on would have improved, sadly this isn’t so, you just post the same ignorant shit you always have for the single purpose of putting down the government.

    Awards are a minimum only and there is nothing stopping in employer rewarding their workers more to an unlimited amount and in any form as long as it’s declared to the ATO.

    The truck drivers of the Pilbara are more than likely earning above the minimum award wage and good on them if they deserve it.

  63. And now Neil you just rehash the same crap you have so many times it’s impossible to keep count.

    Is that what we can expect from now on from you, just the same shit you have always posted with barely a change in wording?

  64. Neil, do you have any idea what a truck driver over there will earn (let alone receive in tax-free living away from home allowances)?

    Some of them even earn more than we/ex Public Servants. :mrgreen:

  65. By the way Howard said in that speech about bringing back WorkChoices that this government did a good job with the GFC and if he didn’t spend enough on infrastructure giving out too much in middle class welfare.

    Exactly what we have been saying since Dunlop’s blog and you Neil kept canning and supporting Howard.

    Howard has now said you were wrong all that time.

    History will show that Howard was wrong on many other things you backed him on.

  66. Is that what we can expect from now on from you, just the same shit you have always posted with barely a change in wording?

    I guess but Labor did say that the Coalition wasted the boom from 2004-2007. I do not agree with this since they saved $50B during this time.

    How is Labor better handling out tax dollars during and even bigger boom???

  67. Furthermore they have not saved one cent but have racked up debt surely faster than any govt in our history.

    And the ALP got us through the GFC (remember the GLOBAL Financial CRISIS?) … and yes they have continued with the middle class welfare … I will concede that … why any family should be given $5000 to have a baby AND tax breaks AND parental leave … the last, I agree with … but ‘tothers …

    But, Noddy, does that mean you think, John Howard, was wrong to introduce middle class welfare?

  68. Some of them even earn more than we/ex Public Servants.

    You have a problem with that? Piggy? 😉

  69. “That was then, this is now,” Mr Abbott told reporters in Mackay today.”

    He also added that there is no going back to the past.

    Did Abbott Liar or did not Abbott Liar say not all that long ago that he would return us to the Howard golden age and the Howard boat policy?

    Has someone told Abbott Liar that means he is going back to the past?

    ———————
    By the way something I have been saying about the hypocrisy of the Right has come to past as there have been complaints about reporters calling Abbott Liar “Tony” instead of Mr Abbott (Liar).

    So Gillard can be called she and many foul abusive names but never Ms Gillard and hard ever Prime Minister, but Abbott Liar cannot be called Tony. If he’s PM watch the outrage from the Right if anybody doesn’t call him Prime Minister or at least Your Most Magnificent Prime Minister Sir.

  70. But Neil, spruiking exactly the same on debt as always and making out $50 billion in savings is a great achievement, that wasn’t a great achievement and Howard himself has now admitted he should have spent on infrastructure.

    Howard had a massive structural deficit, shoved debt onto the consumer, the greatest amount in the industrialised world and allowed infrastructure and services to run down.

    That was a huge FAIL, that is now not only admitted by just about every economist and economic group out there but by Howard himself.

    Neil tell us just when and where was infrastructure and services going to be rebuilt by a conservative government?

    Putting it a better and more realistic way.

    Just how far do you believe infrastructure and services should have been run down whilst the government built up massive surpluses on the back of the longest sustained boom in global history.

  71. yes, Neil, but look at all the infrastructure being built. Looks roads etc that are not falling to pieces through neglect.

  72. Howard’s ; legacy was the greatest personal debt in Australia’s history. Put graphs up somewhere today.

  73. Familar.

    l Labor – and the ABC – have left is one scare after another, and nothing to boast about of their own:

    TONY Abbott has distanced himself from his political mentor John Howard, declaring “there is no going back to the past” as he rejected calls by the former prime minister for a return to individual contracts and a crackdown on unfair dismissal claims…

    “Let’s face it, John Howard is two prime ministers ago; John Howard is at least three Liberal leaders ago. That was then, this is now. There is no going back to the past,” he said.

    Mr Abbott said the Coalition wanted to improve Labor’s individual flexibility arrangements, but it would do so within the Fair Work Act.

    Mr Howard called at a recent closed-door Westpac forum for a return to statutory contracts and unfair dismissal exemptions for small business – an appeal backed by prominent Liberal backbencher Steve Ciobo.
    l Labor – and the ABC – have left is one scare after another, and nothing to boast about of their own:

    TONY Abbott has distanced himself from his political mentor John Howard, declaring “there is no going back to the past” as he rejected calls by the former prime minister for a return to individual contracts and a crackdown on unfair dismissal claims…

    “Let’s face it, John Howard is two prime ministers ago; John Howard is at least three Liberal leaders ago. That was then, this is now. There is no going back to the past,” he said.

    Mr Abbott said the Coalition wanted to improve Labor’s individual flexibility arrangements, but it would do so within the Fair Work Act.

    Mr Howard called at a recent closed-door Westpac forum for a return to statutory contracts and unfair dismissal exemptions for small business – an appeal backed by prominent Liberal backbencher Steve Ciobo.

    .
    .

    Is that projection in play again. Maybe the kettle calling the pot black.

  74. And, CU, if Abbott keeps going the way he has, it’ll be four Liberal leaders ago.

    So much for the Golden Years!

  75. But really, can you believe this guy (Abbott) when one week he is talking about the Howard Golden Years and now he’s saying that that was then, this is now? No?
    All over the place!!!!

  76. Howard named it. Abbott has himself in a political corner and nowhere to go.

    i believe he is on the way out.

  77. I’d happily show him the door, CU. And I think in time, so will the Liberal Party.

    He’s a dipstick.

  78. What we need to remember, we had Turnbull that agreed to Rudd’s ETS. Along came Abbott and dumped it. We have Abbott saying no Workchoices. That is OK, until another Liberal knifes Abbott , then Workchoices.

  79. Cu and,

    TONY Abbott has distanced himself from his political mentor John Howard, declaring “there is no going back to the past” as he rejected calls by the former prime minister for a return to individual contracts and a crackdown on unfair dismissal claims…

    “Let’s face it, John Howard is two prime ministers ago; John Howard is at least three Liberal leaders ago. That was then, this is now. There is no going back to the past,” he said.

    But hang on a moment wasn’t it only 5 minutes ago that Howard’s era was supposed to be The Golden Age…

  80. I’m assuming by that string of smilies that a raid did indeed take place.

    Sorry Migs – I’ve been away for the weekend. I’ve only got time for smilies while Catching Up 🙂

    Sorry about “the top shelf in rack G of the southern wing” too. I didn’t expect you to get there so quickly 😆

  81. I think that John might be three PM ago. Julia, Kevin, John.

    As for :Liberal Leaders, we had Howard, I believe Nelson Turnbull an now Abbott.

    Something wrong with his addition.

  82. Oh dear, Neil. Costello didn’t “save” $50 billion-he sold off the gold reserve (at record low prices I might add), cut back on Federal Health Spending (well, the public component), & refused to spend money on vital infrastructure & productivity building reforms. Then once the debt was paid, he simply pissed the money up against the wall on things like the Private Health Insurance Rebate, Baby Bonus, Tax Cuts, Childcare rebate etc etc. Unfortunately the Labor government has persisted on this nonsense, but they’ve at least had the good sense to curtail the costs, by implementing means testing. They’ve also been prepared to invest in the vital infrastructure & productivity based reforms (like the Resource Rent Tax & trebling the tax-free threshold).

  83. You forgot the mess that he made of the sale of Telstra.

    Forgot to separate it into two arms.

    That led to the 18 failed attempts he had at bringing in faster broad band. Labor had to abandon their first attempt for the same reason.

    That was lucky for us,

    Labor had the guts to take the monopoly from Telstra, and bring in a more expensive but superior scheme, that not only deals with today’s needs, but those of the coming decades.

    Not sticking with adding to a crapped out system will be cheaper in the long run.

    The UK has gone with fibre to the node, saying that because of the economy, this is the first step. They see fibre to the home being the way to go, but will have to wait.

    Connection to all, as you go pass, is cheaper than connecting later.

    Then there was the mess that this government had to clear up with child care. Costello’s wonderful scheme, where one got a rebate up to two years after you paid. Then we had the ABC collapsed.
    The list goes on and on and on.

  84. Why? Because workers hated his industrial relations regime; not just individual employment contracts but every damn thing about it.

    The restrictions on strikes; the power it gave to the bosses over sackings; the control it gave to the employers over almost every detail of your working life (including in some cases when you could go to the toilet); the attacks on penalty pay, minimum pay amounts, youth wages.

    It was a classic example fo neoliberalism in practice – a grand house of laws to undermine unions and workplace rights to put the bosses in control.

    That doesn’t always mean wage cuts. In times of high demand for particular

    and

    Remember Howard’s ‘Golden Era’ (Abbott’s words) under WorkChoices? Remember when the Cowra abattoir sacked 29 workers to rehire 20 on lower wages? When Spotlight offered individual contracts that removed overtime, penalty rates and loadings for public holidays, shifts, leave, rest breaks and bonuses for an extra two cents an hour?

    When employment became even more precarious than in the past.

    Under Howard’s laws the individual worker and the big boss were put on a par with the aim of removing unions from the bargaining process. The one thing that gives workers strength is their collective power. Moving to individual contracts puts the bosses in total control.

    http://enpassant.com.au/2012/08/27/bring-back-workchoices-it-is-still-with-us/

  85. However the backlash and the union bureaucrats’ talk shop vote Labor campaign with demonstrations of hundreds of thousands of workers against Howard’s rotten laws saw the bourgeoisie forced to accept some changes.

    The beauty of Labor for the boss is that it can, and in the case of replacing WorkChoices with Fair Work, did, give the bosses more or less what they want while convincing workers things are much better than they are.

    However this sleight of hand weakens the union movement and gives credence to those who call for more and more power to the bosses.

    Of course, given the rejection of WorkChoices in 2007 and the fear it still engenders, Tony Abbott cannot come out publicly in support of a return to this industrial relations ‘Golden Age’. So he hides behind weasel words about limiting union control and militancy – militancy when strike days are at historic lows! – and restoring industrial relations ‘balance’.

    This is code for giving even more power to the bosses.

    This is n……
    http://enpassant.com.au/2012/08/27/bring-back-workchoices-it-is-still-with-us/

  86. Howard had a massive structural deficit”

    Where did you get that idea from?? Macolm Turnbull says that this structural deficit crap was commissioned by Swan to trash the Howard legacy. It was a new economic indicator that is almost impossible to measure. Nevertheless Treasury looked at the calculation again and got a different result to that which was published in the 2010 budget.

    http://archive.treasury.gov.au/documents/1881/HTML/docshell.asp?URL=04_Structural_Budget_Balance.htm

    Chart 14 shows the newer calculation of the alleged structural deficit and it is much smaller to what was published in the 2010 budget. Treasury states

    Based on these estimates, the structural budget balance deteriorated from 2004-05, moving to a structural deficit of around ½ per cent of GDP in 2007-08 before declining to around 5¼ per cent in 2009-10 reflecting the effects of the discretionary fiscal stimulus measures in response to the Global Financial Crisis and the impact of further personal income tax cuts.”

    And I bet you that a different result would be obtained depending on whether the people in Treasury vote Liberal or Labor.

  87. “And I bet you that a different result would be obtained depending on whether the people in Treasury vote Liberal or Labor.”

    I bet you my house that is a load of utter crap and something you have averred many times before. See folks again nothing original just the same old rehash.

    Thing is Neil the Treasury raw figures are there for anybody to scrutinise so how can they be different depending on the Treasury staff? That’s a ludicrous idea.

    What can be different is what a government allows to be made public or not and Costello was very active in keeping information that made him look bad from the public. One set of numbers he deemed not in the public interest, and won a challenge to keep hidden, was actual expenditure as compared to budgeted expenditure.

  88. O.K. According to Treasury’s new calculation the Structural deficit only occurred in Costello’s last budget (See Chart 14) and was 0.5% of GDP.

    So it was not massive.

    Nothing original?? Has anybody ever posted Treasuries chart for the structural deficit??

  89. I said you claim about Treasury being corrupt according to how they vote isn’t new Neil. That’s ludicrous.

  90. I said you claim about Treasury being corrupt according to how they vote isn’t new Neil. That’s ludicrous.”

    It is impossible to remove human bias from a calculation, especially with something as hard to define as a structural deficit with many varying parameters. And how much influence did Swan have over the original calculations published in the 2010 budget??

    Nevertheless Treasury now says there was a small structural deficit in Howards last budget. Different to what was published in 2010.

    So you should not say it was massive. Treasury disagrees with you.

  91. It is impossible to remove human bias from a calculation

    wrong as usual Neil, it’s called scientific method, and works quite well actually 😆

  92. Kitkat

    Treasury has published a different figure for the structural deficit published in the 2010 budget. What Megamaniac has published is now wrong according to Treasury.

    wrong as usual Neil”

    Well Treasury says this in the link I gave

    Sensitivity analysis of structural budget balance

    As noted earlier, estimates of the structural budget balance are highly sensitive to a range of assumptions. Alternative assumptions and approaches can result in significantly different estimates of the structural budget balance. In some cases, they can also shift the shape of movements in the structural budget balance over time.

    Treasury now says a small structural (not massive) deficit occurred in Costello’s last budget (0.5% GDP).

  93. Interestingly it was someone in the business community that sought to release the recording of Howard repudiating Abbotts approach to all things economic. Abbott has lost the support of business and finance, he’ll be gone by Christmas. As I have said before, he had his chance and he failed, they don’t need him anymore.

  94. Hi, what does one do when the family budget runs into deficit. This often happens if we but a house, we borrow. As most do it, debt cannot be that bad,

    What is important that we can service the debt.

    If we find we are not earning enough, what do most do. I say, maybe mum can ears. Maybe a little more overtime or second job. Not the end of the world.

    Maybe we downsize in our lifestyle. We makes choices in what is more important, the mortgage and house or eating out each week. We repriorise our wants and needs.

    It is only when extra income cannot be found, that we consider selling up. Maybe there is a caravan or boat that is available for sale before that.

    There are essentials that we must respect. Good food, health, education and a roof over ones head. They are the last to cut back on.

    Now, I need to point out that the nations budget is nothing like a family budget. There is much more in play.

    We have the likes of some of our visitors, that are trying to convince us that deficits are wrong. That governments mush always be in surplus, while all around us, the opposite is true.

    A government investing in infrastructure is only ensuring there will be revenue for the next generation.

    If we continue down this path, of lower taxes and lower spending, we are leaving the next generation with less that we enjoy.

    In truth, we are being selfish. We are taking all and leaving nothing in reserve.

    There is nothing wrong with debt. The economy runs on debt. Business runs on debt.

  95. Kitkat, the only support will come from the likes of Gina so Tony is still in with a chance. A major cost for the miners is labour and especially those with high skills needed…a return to 457 visas minus the proviso (introduced by Labor) that imported workers be paid at the same rate as Australian workers.

  96. Neighbour issues … Tony Abbott. Photo: Justin McManus
    It’s not very neighbourly but an ‘‘Anyone But Abbott’’ campaign to run a candidate against the opposition leader has been started by a man who lives in the same street.
    Bruce Butler, who works for the Commonwealth Bank, said he approached friends to start up a website and search for a suitable local candidate to run in Warringah.
    Leadership is about inspiration and motivation. Most of the time, when Tony Abbott speaks, people stop listening. ………………..

    The group felt that people

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/tony-abbotts-problem-neighbour-20120828-24x6i.html#ixzz24nNp6ZOM

  97. ……………The Fairfax/Nielsen poll this week found Mr Abbott is equally unpopular as Julia Gillard. The approval of each is 39 per cent; their disapproval is 57 per cent. Ms Gillard led Mr Abbott as preferred PM for the first time since February — 46-45 per cent.
    Advertisement
    Asked whether he was concerned Ms Gillard was becoming more popular at his expense, Mr Abbott told reporters yesterday he looked ‘‘at the field evidence’’, which showed people did not trust Ms Gillard and did not like the carbon tax. ‘‘If you want to look at a poll, look at the Northern Territory poll’’…………..

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/tony-abbotts-problem-neighbour-20120828-24x6i.html#ixzz24nOTlvC6

    Yes, look at the NT elections. If they voted in the Indigenous regions as in Darwin, it is possible Labor could have win.

    What happened, the Indigenous people used their voting power for the first time. Suspect it has little to do with any other election.

    What would be interesting, is how they wield this power, which they have had for ages, in the future.

    If they do not get changes, will they vote the other lot in next time. Who knows.

  98. Tony in Rockhampton at a trucking company. Wonder how much his electioneering is costing us. Makes sense to go north in the winter.
    Will be televised later. I love how they keep reminding us, when it comes to Abbott.

  99. Out driving trucks again. Maybe he should change jobs permanently.

    up and up and up

    Refridge bills goes up and up an up python worse and worse and worse

    hurts jobs hurts families Bad for our country.

    Nothing new I am afraid.

    New slogan. Axe the tax. Big new slush fund.

    Labor governments getting booted out aropund the country. Cannot keep going, living beyond our means.

    How come then, that we has All these slogans just go from one to the other.

    Owner claimed to come from Labor family and up to the second term of Howard, voted Labor. Read from script, as he is not as great as Tony.]

    More bullshit.

  100. Every trucking company will have extra costs from July 2014. is being asked questions. blah blah
    Still slogans for answers.

    Coalition governments that have to clean up the mess etc. Using Costello’s figures. Supporting his mate. I suspect that is why he is spending the week in Queensland.

    Quoting from public figures, when challenged on figures. Brother coalition premiers. I certainly talk to them.

    His heart bleeds for those doing it tough. Question, how does he feel for those sacked.

    He feels for all of us. Sure.

    He welcomes foreign investment, that has to be in Australia’s interest. I think it is nearly time for him to Walk.

    Invented Nauru but need to turn boats around etc..

    Still has not walked.

    First act to restore the ACC with full powers. Got to pull those pesky unionist into line. He did it. and will do-it again, I supposed.

    Now walked. Asked who was to blame with, in my words, rude attacks in politics. He believes that everyone should be treated with respect.

    Wonder when he is going to begin to do that.

  101. Abbott almost used the correct name ‘assylum seekers’ then quickly corrected himself and said ‘illegals’.
    Stupid msm did not attack him on this and they should have. The mn thinks he should be PM he should be held to account.

  102. Howard had a massive structural deficit

    One of the reasons I am so anti the ALP and its supporters is that when I find the time to investigate allegations against the Coalition I find them wrong.

    Costello ran surplus budgets totaling $50B in his last three years but ALP supporters said he ran massive structural deficits. It made no sense to me. The only thing that made sense was that Swan was trying to trash Costello.

    This is indeed the case. Anyone with any honesty could have seen through the structural deficit crap and realised what Swan was trying to do.

  103. If mining is short on people who are willing to move to the bush, whats wrong with offering those jobs to asylum seekers at minimum wage until they are processed?

  104. Neil, what you refuse to see, running surplus budgets means exactly nothing. During those surpluses rose how many times in a row. Massive private debt.

    Turn down of all systems, such as health, education etc.

    Run down of receipts,for essential services to give tax bonus to the wealthy.

    It is what one does with the budgets that count. Yes over cycles they need to balance.

    I do not know why we keep telling you this.

    Deficits in the scheme of things, mean nothing. In fact if the budget was kept in surplus during the GFC, we would be in BIG trouble now.

    YES, BIG TROUBLE.

    After every down turn, it takes longer and more money, to bring the unemployment rates down.

    The secret is to keep the economy running over during this time, keeping unemployment down. This, believe it or not, means deficits and is cheaper in the long run.

    I know that Canada went down the same path, as Rudd did. They are also doing OK.

    The proof is in the eating. We, when compared with others, in fact most of the western world are doing pretty good.

    At the end of the day, it is the economy, stupid.

  105. I heard a journalist say maybe we can go back to normal, talking about politics and policies. Obviously not.

    I’d say Tony Abbott definitely agrees with this but can’t say so. The reason is that he has so distorted the national debate with such wildly cartoonish characterisations of Labor government policies, like the carbon tax and refugee processing, that sensible policy discussion has become impossible.

    He knows he would get his own medicine if he adopted any policy that involved any amendment whatsoever to the current IR laws.

    So because of the dysfunctional state of national politics, Australian companies are reduced to hoping that the Opposition can slip into government while lying about its intentions on the subject of individual contracts. They want him to say: “There will be no individual contracts under a government I lead”, in the manner of Julia Gillard on the subject of carbon tax.

    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/WorkChoices-IR-Howard-Abbott-Coalition-penalty-rat-pd20120828-XKSMD?opendocument&src=idp&utm_source=exact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=96548&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary

  106. Tony Abbott, 18/8/12: “I’m wholly and solely dedicated to recreating the golden age of the Howard government.”

    Tony Abbott, 27/8/12: “John Howard is two prime ministers ago; John Howard is at least three Liberal leaders ago. That was then, this is now. There is no going back to the past.”

  107. So much so that the Opposition Leader, who has boasted he and 15 current colleagues were members of Howard ministries, now seems to want those days regarded simply as history.
    Ancient history at that.

    “But let’s face it: John Howard is two prime ministers ago. John Howard is three Liberal leaders ago. That was then, this is now. There is no going back to the past,” Mr Abbott told reporters on Monday.

    Compare that to his pledge, just 10 days before, to reproduce that ancient regime: “The Howard government now looks like it created a golden age of prosperity which is lost. Our task, to which we are wholly and solely dedicated, is to recreate those great days for our country and we will.”

    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/howards-legacy-now-a-hindrance-for-abbott/

    O what a different, a week makes.

  108. Yesterday Hockey went further, not merely failing to mention the events of 2008-09 at all — the government’s stimulus programs were instead “the greatest waste of taxpayers’ money in modern Australian history” — but offering an alternative account in which it was the Howard government that had handled the real economic crises. Hockey dwelt at length on the Asian financial crisis, then threw in the tech wreck (“which led to a near-recession in the developed world”) and the drought as evidence that the Howard government was the real economic crisis manager. “We guided Australia through those difficult episodes with a sure hand and sound policies that were consistent.”

    One hopes Hock……..

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/02/10/nostalgianomics-and-the-ongoing-rewriting-of-economic-history/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

  109. One hopes Hockey doesn’t seriously believe that the Asian financial crisis is comparable to the events of 2008-09, that financial crises in Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia and Korea, and subsequent crises in Russia and Brazil, were equivalent to the systemic threats in the very heart of modern capitalism. Surely he doesn’t think, say, that the bailout of Long Term Capital Management was comparable to the bailouts of Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, AIG, Bank of America and the collapse of Lehman Brothers or the dispatch of Merrill Lynch. One hopes he doesn’t seriously think the “near recession” after the tech wreck was comparable to the recession across Europe and the United States that is still unfolding years later…….

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/02/10/nostalgianomics-and-the-ongoing-rewriting-of-economic-history/?wpmp_switcher=mobile

  110. CU

    The main point I was trying to make was the factual inaccuracies of the alleged structural deficit.

    http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/homepage-speeches-articles/budget-in-reply-speech-labor-wasting-the-boom/

    Last October the Treasury’s economic forecasters released work on the ’structural’ budget deficit …………………………………………..Nonetheless, Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swan were entirely willing to use a crude earlier version of the Treasury’s work published in the 2009-10 budget without any such qualification to try and trash John Howard and Peter Costello’s reputations by claiming that they squandered the resources boom. In fact it appeared that the work had been commissioned for that very purpose

    Anyone with any common sense would not trust Wayne Swan.

    How can we trash Costello says Swan?? Ah yes let us invent the MASSIVE structural deficit even though Costello was running surplus budgets. There was no MASSIVE structural deficit. It is a total lie.

  111. Access Economics and the Business Council of Australia have warned the Treasurer Wayne Swan that the previous government left the nation’s finances in much worse shape than had been believed.

    Calculations prepared by Access for the Business Council’s pre-budget submission show that the Coalition left Australia with an “underlying” or “structural” budget deficit of $11 billion, rather than the surplus it had claimed.
    ……….
    http://www.petermartin.com.au/2008/02/surplus-that-isnt.html

  112. Major announcement by Combet on the cutting of the carbon tax floor and Kyoto permits to 12.5%.

    Also move to ETS earlier.

  113. CU
    Too bad the latest Treasury analysis does not agree with Peter Martin.

    Anybody with any common sense could see that the structural deficit was brought in to trash Costello. Indeed that is what Malcolm Turnbull says.
    And later work by Treasury gave a different result to their previous work.

    You notice that Megalogenis no longer talks about the structural deficit? He does not talk about it because the early work was shown to be in error.

    You can see the more recent work by Treasury in my post at 8.57AM.

  114. Neil, read the articles. You appear to be wrong, very wrong. Some are from the Financial Review. Hardly a left wing effort.

  115. This wouldn’t be the same Costello whose Commission of Audit report for Newman in Queensland showed a $100 billion debt that turned out to be full of errors and deliberate double accounting would it? A figure by the way that Newman recently apologised for in parliament as being in error as he was telling Queenslanders $100 billion but foreign investors a figure that was a fraction of that.

    Yes the Liberals as dishonest as a day is long.

  116. Neil true to form will now flog a dead horse over and over, then for good measure a little time down the track will dig up the dead horse and flog it again, and will keep doing that for years.

    His favourite dead horses to flog are Labor deficit and Liberal surplus. No amount of facts, links, sources, articles or quotes from any source will make an iota of difference so it’s useless getting into any discussion as he will just ignore you and flog his dead horses over and over.

  117. Neil true to form will now flog a dead horse

    I am just correcting your errors.

    But use your common sense if you have any. Costello runs surplus after surplus but they are not really surpluses but structural deficits. Turnbull has it right

    Nonetheless, Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swan were entirely willing to use a crude earlier version of the Treasury’s work published in the 2009-10 budget without any such qualification to try and trash John Howard and Peter Costello’s reputations by claiming that they squandered the resources boom. In fact it appeared that the work had been commissioned for that very purpose

    A surplus is a surplus.

  118. A surplus is a surplus, and means absolutely nothing. Do not you get it.

    It is not important. A surplus at the wrong time will lead to waste and a poor economy.

    Why keep up a campaign about something that does not count.

  119. Neil,

    The whole ‘structural balance’ thing is bullshit.

    If you really want to look like you know what you’re talking about, read this article by Bill Mitchell:

    “Structural Deficits: the great con-job”

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=2326

    Very simply, the structural balance is an essentially neo-liberal bias that is applied to the real budget outcome to make even small surpluses appear expansionary (ie, become ‘structural deficits’).

    It has its roots in a misguided belief that there is a “natural rate” of unemployment. Treasury currently believes that to be about 5%. That means that an actual balanced budget in these times would be re-calculated to look like a deficit.

    The structural balance ideology has the effect of encouraging governments to eschew deficits thereby ensuring that the sky doesn’t fall in.

  120. It is not important. A surplus at the wrong time will lead to waste and a poor economy.”

    I am not commenting on that topic.

    I am commenting on the fact that after I investigate allegations by ALP supporters about Howard/Costello they are usually wrong.

    Turnbull is correct. The structural deficit crap was commissioned by Swan to trash Costello. No body talks about the early results now. You will notice that Megalogenis no longer talks about it.

  121. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-28/combet-announces-eu-carbon-floor-price-link/4228368

    Australia and the European Union will be linked in what will become the world’s largest carbon market under a deal announced by Climate Change Minister Greg Combet today.

    Mr Combet said Australia was ditching its earlier plans to impose a floor price on carbon when the current fixed-price carbon tax moves to a floating market mechanism in July 2015.

    Instead, he said the Australian market would be linked to that which operates in Europe, where more than 500 million people are covered by carbon trading schemes, meaning the two blocs’ carbon price would be “effectively the same”.

  122. Neil, I am sorry if I am misunderstanding’s what you say.

    Then you can tell me why you continue to talk Costello’s surpluses and Labor’s deficits. I do not see the connection.

  123. BMac, unfortunately the jobs going begging on the mines story is a bit of a furphy. Dual tradies preferred with 5 years minimum experience FIFO.

  124. He’s having a foot massage, not a pedicure. Don’t cast aspersions on this upstanding cough cough honest person.

  125. THis is interesting. We had Bowen with extras police protection. I do not like the country, we are becoming.

    Yes, play the game hard, but keep id fair.

    The day before that, a 52-year-old man avoided jail after being charged with threatening to kill Attorney-General Nicola Roxon and state Labor MP Jill Hennessy at a public function. He was highly agitated; both women were justifiably frightened.
    Security is now being upgraded to the homes of MPs, as well as presumably being reviewed at Parliament House. We can be grateful that that’s all, for now. In the meantime, we desperately need to turn down the temperature of political debate.
    Everyone, on both sides of politics, inside and outside the parliamentary chamber, needs to just stop for a moment. Step away from the computer, away from forums and comment threads and Twitter. Don’t turn up your radio. Turn it off.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/misogynists-and-nut-jobs-need-to-turn-down-the-volume-20120827-24wiz.html#ixzz24od3jERQ

  126. The whole ‘structural balance’ thing is bullshit.”

    Well Treasury does not think so since they have had a couple of goes to work it out. I am not sure what to make of Bill Mitchell. Everything he says usually goes over my head.

    I was interested to see that Mitchell published a graph from Treasuries early work which was published in the 09/10 budget. They had another go at it a year to two later and came up with a different result. The early work is what everyone refers to. Turnbull says Swan commissioned it to trash Costello.

    It would help a lot if Treasury could get it right the first time. All the ALP supporters are only too happy to find some bad news about Costello. They then go to town on it.

  127. Liberal strategist and former Howard adviser Grahame Morris has been forced to apologise after calling ABC 7.30 presenter Leigh Sales a “cow” over her interview last week with Opposition Leader Tony Abbott (liar).

    Can’t help themselves these troglodyte Liberals can they?

  128. Neil, the truth is that most could not care less about Costello. He is yesterdays man. He belongs to what is becoming the distant past.

  129. Iain, TA did not want to form a minority Govt, he just wanted another election. Look where that has got him.

  130. He is incapable oft working in a minority government. That takes person and negotiation skills.

    He has neither.

  131. “Everything he says usually goes over my head.”

    If it was simple Neil there’d be no debate. And the average jo-blo would be content to limit his economics reading to Best Bets.

    I’d suggest ‘make the effort’.

    Knowledge is the only antidote to bullshit

  132. Iain, Abbott may not but one thing which he will have to deal with is the Greens in the Senate with the likelihood of them having an increase in their representation.

  133. “He is yesterdays man. He belongs to what is becoming the distant past.”

    But Abbott Liar wants to take us back to the distant past, oh that’s right, no he doesn’t, oh wait, yes he does, now he doesn’t, but he does. but he doesn’t.

    Oh good his latest long term stance as of ten minutes ago is that he does.

    What’s that, he doesn’t.

  134. paulwello @ 4:11 pm

    Iain, TA did not want to form a minority Govt, he just wanted another election. Look where that has got him.

    After seeing how Gillard has fared running a minority government who can blame him for not wanting that poisoned chalice?
    and for your information Its the people who want an election to vote out Gillard


    Catching up @ 4:15 pm

    He is incapable oft working in a minority government. That takes person and negotiation skills.

    He has neither.

    C U its not the case that Abbott is incapable, rather he showed the good sense not to do as Gillard did, and pay far too high a price for an almost unworkable parliamentary situation.

    Min @ 5:17 pm

    Iain, Abbott may not but one thing which he will have to deal with is the Greens in the Senate with the likelihood of them having an increase in their representation.

    I find it hard to believe that the Greens will increase their numbers in either house at the next election, besides the fact that both Labor and the Libs are going to direct preferences away from them next time, their behaviour when given a taste of real power has not won them as many friends as it has lost them. They have peaked IMHO.

  135. After seeing how Gillard has fared running a minority government who can blame him for not wanting that poisoned chalice?

    Why then, Iain, have there been over 300 pieces of legislation passed?

  136. So Iain comrade, all this talk from Abbott in Parliament and PC about him wanting another election is nothing, I think every day for the last 2 years he has been demanding a new election, the longest whine ever is it not.

    and Iain, “After seeing how Gillard has fared running a minority government who can blame him for not wanting that poisoned chalice?” Iain why is it a poisoned chalice. Look at the reforms that have taken place under this Minority Govt.

  137. “…have there been over 300 pieces of legislation passed?”

    Nearly 400 now. Makes the best of the Howard years with a majority in both houses look pedestrian.

  138. Miglo @ 6:21 pm

    Why then, Iain, have there been over 300 pieces of legislation passed?

    Migs why do you think that passing legislation is any measure of a government’s success? How many bills did Howard pass? Face it the “bills passed” claim is meaningless Labor spin.

    paulwello @ 6:23 pm

    So Iain comrade, all this talk from Abbott in Parliament and PC about him wanting another election is nothing, I think every day for the last 2 years he has been demanding a new election, the longest whine ever is it not.

    Its strategy Paul and there to remind the voters that the only cure for the Gillard disease is the removal of Labor at the ballot box

    and Iain, “After seeing how Gillard has fared running a minority government who can blame him for not wanting that poisoned chalice?” Iain why is it a poisoned chalice. Look at the reforms that have taken place under this Minority Govt.

    When are you poor deluded lefties going to realise that just because Labor makes “reforms” it does not mean that they are appropriate or worthwhile changes to the country.

  139. Iain, one minute you say the voters want a change of Govt, then there not.

    Iain, yes Labor are making reforms that are good for the country, the coalition want to rip down those reforms, why is that Iain.

  140. So Iain, the passing of legislation is not important to running a Government, so If the coalition get into government they will not pass any legislation at all except the dismantling of all Labor reforms, that is a forward thinking government not a fresh idea among them.

  141. Mo, further, the passing of almost 400 pieces of legislation should put to bed Abbott’s lie that this is a do-nothing Government.

  142. Paul also in order to dismantle it’s likely that they will have pass bills in order to do so, the carbon tax for example.

  143. The best measure of success for a Government is the ability to run a strong economy with the least pain to tax payers. Best not to do these things from a hammock

    Assume the current Labor Government collected the same average amount of tax as the Howard Government – no more, no less. That is, just to reiterate, an amount equal to 23.4% of GDP for each year from 2008-09 to 2012-13.

    What would be the level of net government debt in this scenario?

    Well, in 2012-13, net government debt would be – wait for it – negative 1.6% of GDP. That is, there would be no government debt. Fact.

    And if the tax to GDP ratio held at the Howard Government average out to the end of the forward estimates (2015-16), then net government debt would be negative 3.3% of GDP in June 2016. Fact.

    Which just goes to show, if the government taxes the tripe out of the private sector, it is easy to run large budget surpluses and have no government debt.

    http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/2213-how-howard-taxed-the-tripe-out-of-the-public-to-eliminate-government-debt

  144. TomR

    After reading that rubbish by Stephen Koukoulas I can honestly say i have nothing in common with you people. If you believe that crap you are in need of serious help.

    So the ALP is not taxing enough?? How about the reckless spending??

    In 2007 we had 4 boat people in detention. We now have 6,000 and this is costing us $1B/year more. When in Opposition the ALP said the Pacific Solution was costly. It was cheap compared to what we are paying now.

    Pink batts, school assembly halls, $900 cheques et al.

    http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/homepage-speeches-articles/budget-in-reply-speech-labor-wasting-the-boom/

    During the four budgets delivered so far by Labor in this term of government the Treasury figures from October last year suggest that the federal government has benefited from a terms of trade windfall of at least $90 billion, with the largest single boost coming in the 2011-12 financial year we are about to commence. According to the latest government forecasts deficits run up by Labor over those four years from 2008-09 to 2011-12 will total $154 billion. Regardless of the impact of the global financial crisis those figures speak for themselves………………….There we can seen that annual spending has risen by $90 billion since the last year of the Howard government. That is a rise of 33 per cent in nominal terms and more than 20 per cent after adjusting for price change………………………….No wonder we are in deep deficit despite full employment, an unemployment rate starting with a four and the strongest terms of trade in our history..”

  145. Tony Abbott is always saying “this is a bad government”, however journalists never ask why / on what criteria do you base that statement?

    Now with the Facts that this minority government has passed 400 pieces of legislation, a journalist could ask which or how many of the 400 will be repealed?
    How many of the 400 make the government “bad”, 4, 40, 140, 240, 340 or 400?

  146. Min, I believe demolition can be very expensive. Double so, if there is nothing put in place after the demolition.

    Combet has tied up the carbon tax today. His action makes it harder to unravel. Also the best way to go.

    It is not as Abbott says, a background. It would be I assume the result of negotiations with Europe. An option that was not available six months ago.

  147. Iain, MT talks about Plan A and says the Govt has no plan B. Not once did he say what the coalitions plan was, ABCDE,

  148. If you believe that crap you are in need of serious help.

    Well, perhaps you can point out where he has gone wrong with his figures? Instead of just abusing.

    As for the BER

    Sandi Keane forensically dissects The Australian newspaper’s calculating, concerted and misleading campaign against the Federal Government’s extremely successful ‘Building the Education Revolution’ programme.

    “…probably the best designed stimulus package of any of the countries….”

    http://www.independentaustralia.net/2012/business/media-2/the-australians-ber-campaign-building-an-election-result/

  149. Neil, we have a deficit that is manageable. it is not the end of the world.

    As for Pink Bats and BER. More that one investigation, prove them to be delivered in a orderly manner, with little waste.The cost overruns were small. Most private industry would have been envious.

    Neil, the economy continues to grow. Now that would release more to spend.

    There is little wrong with the economy today. That is on all fronts. We have AAA ratings from all rating agencies for the first time in our history.

    Why our treasurer has been named the worlds best. I believe the only other to get this award was Keating.

    There has been improvements in health, education, roads and fast broadband.

    The list goes on and on and on. Even something for the disabled, along with better super arrangements, which I believe have gone through.

    Why the whinge.

  150. Another wasteful; action of a Labor government. Does one recall the headlines and criticism that went on for weeks.

    The 1973 purchase of ‘Blue Poles’ for $1.3 million divided public opinion.

    Four decades later, Jackson Pollock’s painting still has the capacity to divide opinion, but its purchase is now regarded as a masterstroke.

    The National Gallery of Australia (NGA), where Blue Poles is the proud collection centrepiece, has hosted a symposium to discuss the painting’s place in the wider Abstract Expressionism movement.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-28/stroke-of-genius-the-legacy-of-blue-poles/4228672?height=100&ratio=1×1&width=100

  151. Cu, on the demolition..all those contracts which will require compensatory payouts for cancellations..and that’s just for starters.

  152. Neil, there is a difference between receipts and expenditure. Tom R asked you to detail where Mr Koukolas had his figures wrong in his piece talking about tax and its effect on debt.

    You respond by talking about spending – WTF???

    So 1st challenge for you Neil – answer Tom R’s original challenge – “Well, perhaps you can point out where he has gone wrong with his figures?

    2nd challenge – detail the “tricks” Mr Turnbull is using to successfully deceive you.

    3rd challenge – detail where Mr Koukolas has his figures wrong in this piece:
    http://stephenkoukoulas.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/peter-costello-needs-to-read-budget.html

    Government spending to GDP averaged 24.2% of GDP during the 12 Budgets that Mr Costello delivered between 1996 and 2007.

    Government spending rose as a result of the stimulus measures during the GFC and peaked at 26.0% of GDP in 2009-10.

    It since fell to 24.7% of GDP in 2010-11.

    Government spending to GDP is projected to be 23.6% of GDP in 2012-13.

    This will be around 1.5% of GDP below the average government spending to GDP ratio of the last 30 years and obviously below the average spending to GDP ratio in the Budget’s the Mr Costello delivered.

    Whoops!

    And for the record, in only in 3 years out of 12 Budget delivered by Mr Costello was the government spending to GDP ratio lower than the Gillard Government is projecting for 2012-13.

  153. As MJ will no doubt point out, having a lower spending to GDP ratio isn’t necessarily a good thing anyway, but to humour your mindless, uncritical “thinking,” you could cogitate on the facts in this piece as well:
    http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/2115-the-size-of-government-in-australia

    The conventional wisdom on the side of politics that is big spending and big taxing has been dramatically turned on its head with the 2012-13 budget.

    The facts in the budget papers show undeniably that the Labor side of politics is able to deliver smaller government through low spending and taxing as a share of the economy. The Coalition parties, conversely, err on the side of higher spending with the budget surplus objectives inevitably met by high tax receipts.

    The facts show that the fifth Labor budget in this political cycle has in place a quite massive 4.3 per cent cut in real government spending in 2012-13, the largest single-year cut yet recorded.

    In nominal terms, government spending falls in 2012-13 for the first time. Adding context to this extraordinary spending restraint indicates that in the three years since 2009-10 there has been a cumulative total of zero growth in real government spending, restraint only exceeded in the three Labor budgets from 1986-87.

    Not once did the Howard or Fraser governments in about 20 years in office achieve a single year where government spending was cut in real terms, while Labor governments have been able to cut real spending in five years since the mid-1980s.

    Suffice to say, the updated facts on government spending and taxing in the budget papers confirm that Labor delivers smaller government than the Coalition. This is important to recognise because it repudiates the mantra from various opposition spokespeople about this government being “addicted to tax” or not delivering “genuine savings” in terms of cuts in government spending. Nothing could be further from the truth.

  154. paulwello @ 7:24 pm

    Iain, one minute you say the voters want a change of Govt, then there not.

    Iain, yes Labor are making reforms that are good for the country, the coalition want to rip down those reforms, why is that Iain.

    That is because many of those so called reforms do us no benefit
    paulwello @ 7:36 pm

    So Iain, the passing of legislation is not important to running a Government, so If the coalition get into government they will not pass any legislation at all except the dismantling of all Labor reforms, that is a forward thinking government not a fresh idea among them.

    🙄

    Paul to get the keys to the lodge a party has to have the confidence of the house, and if they have the confidence of the house they can pass legislation even without a majority in the senate its far from unusual for ANY government to pass many bills, its the fact that All governments can pass legislation through the parliament that makes this claim utterly empty.

    Min @ 7:40 pm

    Iain, just wondering but how do you implement policies without passing legislation?

    Surely you must realise that many things can be done with administrative powers based upon previous legislation. that said I suggest that you read carefully my response to Paul above

    Miglo @ 7:41 pm

    Mo, further, the passing of almost 400 pieces of legislation should put to bed Abbott’s lie that this is a do-nothing Government.

    Passing legislation is far less important than what is in those bills and the way that legislation is made manifest by the administrative instruments of government
    Min @ 7:43 pm

    Paul also in order to dismantle it’s likely that they will have pass bills in order to do so, the carbon tax for example.

    Certainly they will Min but because they will have to have the numbers to be in government pass bills they will.

  155. And around in circles Neil goes.

    People in all honesty do waste your time and effort in chasing up sources and fact to regale Neil with, he will totally ignore anything you post and just go around in circles posting the same stuff he has been doing for a long time now.

    Absolutely no different, the same narrow band of points over and over, nor any variation in his attacks on them. Tomes of stats, facts, figures, sources, quotes and articles, many from ostensibly Right wing sources have been thrown at him only to have him a short time later post the same discredited item, and then to do so again and again.

    He hasn’t been back here long but already he is now bringing up exactly the same subjects he has been harping over for as long as I can remember his posts, and that goes back a way.

    It’s how Neil operates, wasting everyone’s time with the exact same unending guff as long as it attacks Labor in some way. On the same token he will completely ignore any stats, facts, figures, sources, quotes and articles that are justifiably critical of the Liberals, but especially of Howard and/or Costello.

    You really are wasting you time and effort in responding to Neil in anyway, though every now and again, rare that may, he does surprise and comes up with something new and information that is correct. But that never makes up for the huge amount of wasted space most of his oft repeated posts are.

  156. Hunt on ABC radio news. Nice to hear him challenged and Direct Action bouhgt up.

    Hunt in Timor, visiting the troops.

    Answered with their usual lies. Maybe does not matter, as most know what Hunt is saying, is no the truth.

    Claims government scheme is unique and will not work. Claims their will. Tried to present that government as in chaos. Interviewer kept saying change of mind, and probably for the better,.

    ]

  157. wasting everyone’s time with the exact same unending guff

    Yes, his non-answer to my question is a perfect example.

    The Kouk showed that, had taxes remained as high as they were under howard, net government debt would, by 2012-13, be negative 1.6% of GDP

    He replies with the same old churnbull crap that spending has risen, ignoring completely the elephant in the room, that little thing called the GFC.

    But regardless, none of those (temporary) increases in spending dispute the fact that, had taxes remained as high as they were under howard, net government debt would, by 2012-13, be negative 1.6% of GDP

  158. ME, he has a mate or two, with the same affliction. At least I think he is genuine, The other is not, just believes he is superior. More waste of time there.

    Thanks to Neil we have had a chance to look at available data. Appears that it has grown in favour of this government.

    Yes, remember, Howard love to by pass parliament, using administive powers, which can also be challenged.

    I still stick with the builder, not the demolisher. One only demolished, when the intend to build something better.

    Abbott

    Demolish NBN to be replaced with inferior system, which is also expensive and nowhere as good. Will be appreciated and meet needs in the future, as well as now.

    Price on carbon emission that is now tied in with most of the globe, .We are not unique, but going down the Direct Action route, based on unproven science will be.

    The list goes on and on and on.

    Supporters of the demolisher need to tell us why what the government has done is so wrong, and why Abbott is so right.

    We need to be told the reasons for being for or against. Bad governing, bad laws mean little.

    That we will never get. Just empty and meaningless criticism and carping.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    At the end of the day, the government cannot be that wrong. Look at the economy stupid.

    All-we will get is a long rambling list. naming by name, giving stupid reasons, to prove how stupid we must be, Little will be added, except opinions from a opinionated troll, which are not worth the effort that it takes to compile them.

    Not one new thing added to the debate. It is easy to criticise and carp.

  159. Yes Tom. Turnbull specifically states the GFC in his piece but then ignores it.

    The other thing Turnbull deliberately leaves out is that the Coalition’s stimulus policy at the time as tabled by Hockey and Robb was only $4 billion less than the government’s very successful stimulus. History proves that success.

    The Coalition’s stimulus was along the same lines as the US and several European countries, whereas Canada’s was a similar stimulus strategy to Australia’s.

    History also shows the successes and failures of each of those strategies, with Canada now having a higher per capita income than the US.

    The Coalition’s GFC policy would have seen hundreds of thousands more unemployed, many more businesses closed down and a significant drop in government tax receipts, thus a much larger deficit.

    But that side of the equation, as it is with most of the Coalition side of the equation, is ignored or glossed over in obfuscations and look over there at the government.

  160. He hasn’t been back here long but already he is now bringing up exactly the same subjects

    My main comments have been on the alleged structural deficit and then I start commenting on other people’s posts.

    By the way you can see the figure Journalists used to say that Howard left a large structural deficit at Chart 10 in this link. This was published in the 09 budget.

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2009-10/content/bp1/html/bp1_bst4-06.htm

    It says the budget going into alleged structural deficit in 2005-06 increasing to 1% of GDP in 07-08.

    This link shows Treasuries second go at measuring the structural deficit

    http://archive.treasury.gov.au/documents/1881/HTML/docshell.asp?URL=04_Structural_Budget_Balance.htm

    It shows the budget going into alleged structural deficit in Howards last year 07-08 and it was 0.5% of GDP.

    However I agree with Turnbull. These studies were commissioned by Swan to trash Costello. You notice that Megalogenis no longer talks about the structural deficit because it is a load of crap. I suspect that ALP supporters in Treasury leaked the results to ALP supporting Journalists knowing that they would go to town on this information

  161. Cu @7.57am, a thought came to mind..while the science of climate change and a price on carbon are continuously being challenged, where are the msm’s critiques as to the science Abbott’s Direct Action Plan…

  162. “As MJ will no doubt point out, having a lower spending to GDP ratio isn’t necessarily a good thing anyway,”

    Quite so Bacchus…but I do find it richly entertaining that when those on the Right are through trumpeting the virtues of small government they have to confront the embarrassing reality that it’s the Labor government that’s been delivering (sadly).

    Thanks for the link to the Kalecki article on the politics of full employment. Kalecki knew back in 1943 exactly why the interests of capital were antagonistic to the idea of full employment, despite the fact that it would be to their financial advantage.

    But it would be another 30 years or so before orthodox economists could give them their theoretical cover in the guise of the “natural rate of unemployment” doctrine, thus bringing us back to Neil’s interest in the structural balance and his bizarre belief that it was a bit of Leftish devilry…or was that Turnbull… Gosh !

  163. Mobius, the Liberals have no problem with stimulus spending, as long as it is tax cuts to the better off.

    What they cannot bring themselves to do, is give the money to those at the bottom of the ladder. They are happy to see the wealthy keep the handouts, therefore negating the action.

    Those at the bottom will spend whatever they get. This is because they have no choice.

    For the purpose of the stimulus, it matters not what the money is spent on. It matters not, if some see it as waste. What matters that it begins circulating in the economy.

    When it comes to stimulus, there is no such thing as waste.
    The saying hit big, hit quickly seems to have been proven the correct course of action.

    The stimulus, if my memory is correct was made up of three phrases, all with the aim of keeping people in work.

    The first was to get into the economy money as soon as quickly as possible, therefore the $900 handouts and other actions. This kept the retail industry turning over.

    Next getting money out to the states, councils and other organisations to keep manufacturing turning over. This is why we had schemes such as BER and Insulation. The money was given to get as many, ready to go projects off the ground as possible. From this we do get ongoing benefits. The outfit of school libraries, halls and laborities will last well into the future. Along with this infrastructure was the provision of this ge

    The third phrase took longer, and included ports and other necessary infrastructure. This allowed projects that were in the pipe line to be bought forwarded.

    Yes, it was a complex and well though out scheme to deal with the GFC. Yes, it worked.

    Now back to BER and Insulation. The many enquiries and investigations did not reveal excessive waste or costs.

    Any private industry endeavours would have been proud \of similar outcomes.

    All the Opposition offered was tax cuts that benefit one higher their income is.

    Has proven time and rime again not to work.

    If it meant a few poor families manage to buy a wide screen TV, that they could not have afforded otherwise, so what.

    The truth is,that in times of GFC, the money will be spent. There is no way around that fact. One can spend it in the beginning, keeping business and people in work. They can spend ot down the track, getting unemployment down and kick starting business.

    I like Labor’s way best.

    The other problem is the fact, that history is showing, after every down turn, it is taking a longer period to get unemployment down. I assume also getting business going again.

    Why some or most on the right, cannot stand to see money going to the poorest is beyond me. They keep this stance up, when they probably gain more by the stance taken by Rudd and his government.

    Money given to the rich is good. Money given to the needy is seen by them as waste.

  164. I would like to add, the government would have got a lot of that money back quickly. In taxation and other receipts. Yes, it also helped to protect government revenue.

    I think it could be called, spending money to save money.

  165. “The Carbon Tax started on 1 July this year at $23, but goes up every year and is expected to be $350 by 2050.”

    If the CEF works, there should not be much carbon emission around by 2050 to pay the cost on.

    Burning fossil fuels will be a distance memory for most. Just like the horse and cart was in the 1950’s.

    If fossil fuel is still around, it will because the technology was found to capture the emissions.

  166. Neil, as Mandy Rice said in the middle of last century, they would say that, would they not. I am talking about using data from Liberal Party sites.

    Especially with a leader like Abbott, who has no compunction in telling lies.

    Yesterday was telling in this regard. Lies on every topic that was bought up with him.

  167. Min, Hunt was challenged this morning on ABC radio news. Answered with the usual lies. But he was challenged, that is a start. Direct Action, was also raised.

    He was also asked, if the government changing it mind, meant they were doing what was best.

    Yes, the government have made alterations for the better. Only difference is that the scheme comes on line quicker. The government has listened to industry.

    We are talking about changes that come into being in 2015 Even for businesses that plan well into the future. that is not bad.

    The final outcome of the scheme has not changed, Just a small part of the process to get there.

    Funny we are linking into the rest of the world. Not bad for a scheme that is unique and ahead of the pack. Not bad, considering, according to the Opposition, we are going alone.

  168. “For the purpose of the stimulus, it matters not what the money is spent on. It matters not, if some see it as waste. What matters that it begins circulating in the economy.”

    Remember the howls of indignation from the Right (and righteous), CU…that the poor would blow their handouts on the pokies ?

    I recalled the “Quantity Theory of Money” and the importance of the velocity of circulation…well,wow, what faster way to get the dollars moving ?

    Keynes said you could also put 5 pound notes in bottles, bury them, and contract out the rights to dig them up…but he added it would be better to do something of lasting benefit like build houses. He might’ve also added insulate homes and build school libraries.

  169. Cu and,

    Next getting money out to the states, councils and other organisations to keep manufacturing turning over. This is why we had schemes such as BER and Insulation.

    One day the virtues of these schemes will be recognised. Firstly, the schemes had to be shovel ready..we could not wait 3-5 years for environmental issues etc to be assessed. The schemes had to be via existing businesses and those who could readily access both materials and labour. We could not have schemes where there were already skills shortages or lack of materials. And as a substantial plus, the schemes were those which would have lasting benefits – houses today are still insulated with benefits to the householder, schools still have their halls, science blocks and libraries.

  170. The penny has just dropped. How silly we all are.

    The right have to focus on deficits, as that is all they have in their armoury. It helps to is one con promote waste, as that like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. One man’s waste is another’s essential spending.

    What many forget, yes Labor is on the side of the worker. That is as it should be, as Labor grew out of the union movement.

    What Labor know, is that the worker can only prospers with a strong economy, and that means that industry must be supported.

    Yes, both are important. The worker is just as important, as the bosses.

    Now the right, on the hand only see industry as worthy of support. They see the worker as being a nuisance, that must be kept in their place at all times. They do not see or acknowledge the contribution of the worker to the economy or the well being of industry.

    They see labour as a tool, nothing more. Trouble is tools s do not consume or spend.

    A well paid, educated workforce, is more productive and are big consumers.

    A economy works like a well oiled machine, when both work together.

    The worker needs successful industry. The bosses need workers that add to productive and more important, are able to consume.

    Labor knows and understand this. So do unions.

    The Opposition does not.

  171. My father was born 1900. Left school at 12. Was a loner until he married at forty. Live isolated on small farms during this time. Had no contact with the media etc. Was not a social animal.

    Not even much contact with the bush telegraph.
    Put his car up on drums during the depression and survived on boiled wheat and rabbits.

    He had two beliefs until he died in 1997.

    One, there is no problems while money is going around. One should panic when it stops. He did not believe when it came to the economy, that money could be wasted.

    The other was that another great depression was always just around the corner.

    If I have described my father as dull, yes he was. That is as a person. What he did not have, was dull brain when it came to how the world works.

    I am not sure how my mother came to marry him. It has to be all her effort.

  172. So it has been stated that govt under Labor is smaller. Is the govt employing less people?? No it is employing more. Is the govt spending less?? No it is spending more. So I am supposed to believe that govt is smaller. What a joke.

    Also I find it hard to believe that Labor is taxing less. They have given income tax cuts which are very similar to the ones Costello would have given if he was in power.

    Apart from that the only tax receipts which are less that I know of are Capital Gains taxes. The budget has taken a hit because of the GFC because the share prices have gone down and people are allowed to claim their loses as a tax deduction. This will continue for years.

    But Turnbull is right. The main damage to the budget is because of the huge increase in reckless spending.

    that annual spending has risen by $90 billion since the last year of the Howard government. That is a rise of 33 per cent in nominal terms and more than 20 per cent after adjusting for price change

  173. Where is the reckless spending.

    What spending do you identify as being reckless. Not figures.

    I am thinking of such things that are spent on education, welfare, infrastructure, roads and ports for starters.

    Please Neil list what you believe is reckless.

    Maybe it is childcare and money spent on the disabled.

    Maybe it is the many wars we are involved in.

    It is easy to repeat reckless spending. It is harder to identify that spending.

    As it concerns you so, I assume you have examples to put up.

  174. That is 33 percent in five years.

    What is more important, is what that money being spent on.

    Tell me what Mr. Howard spent the money on. Tell me why Mr. Howard’s spending was OK, Labor’s reckless.

  175. Millions of children and low-income patients will get free dental care under a landmark $4 billion package of reforms announced by Health Minister Tanya Plibersek today.

    Announcing the changes this morning, Ms Plibersek said providing free care would cut waiting lists, free up “massive resources” in the dental sector, and improve the dental health of people across the country.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-29/plibersek-unveils-4b-dental-reform-package/4230196

    Maybe this is some of the reckless spending. Cannot waste money on people. It is lowering the raxes of the rich, that is important.

  176. Cu and,

    Where is the reckless spending.

    What spending do you identify as being reckless.

    Perhaps the msm might ask that question of Abbott next time he stares glassy eyed repeating his old, worn out catchphrases.

  177. .. and this is not waste. I say this, after been a beneficiary of it. Yes, and I have no ongoing illness or disorders. Had to go back the the hospital dental units to replace, forty year old plate. Essential for me, as I has severe cleft palate. The private dentist did the easy part.

    Ms Plibersek also said the Government was scrapping the Chronic Disease Dental Scheme, championed by Opposition Leader Tony Abbott during his time as health minister in the Howard government.

    “That is a scheme thought up by Tony Abbott in the last dying days of the Howard Government. It’s been one of the most widely misused schemes ever designed in our public health system,” she said.

    “This is a scheme that Tony Abbott as Health Minister said would cost $90 million a year, it’s costing about $80 million a month now and there has been massive over-servicing and reports of rorting in this scheme.

    “There have been dentists charging millions of dollars, in some cases doing work that is completely unnecessary and in some cases charging for work that hasn’t even been done.

    “It is an extremely poorly designed scheme and I am very pleased to be seeing the back of it.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-29/plibersek-unveils-4b-dental-reform-package/4230196

  178. “But Turnbull is right. The main damage to the budget is because of the huge increase in reckless spending.”

    Neil, what on earth is that supposed to mean ?

    The term “reckless” has no meaning in economics.

    And a budget can’t sustain “damage”.

    A budget surplus however can be very damaging to the economy, something you don’t seem to understand. Surpluses usually presage a recession.

    I’ve made this point before but I make it again for your benefit:

    When there’s a deficit on the external account (as there usually is in this country) and the govt chooses to run a surplus, then the private sector must run a deficit (ie can’t save)

    This is the inescapable logic imposed by the sectoral balance of the national accounts. It is not politics, not ideology, just simple book-keeping.

    That’s the underlying reason why we still had GDP growth during the Costello surpluses: the private sector made up the spending gap with borrowings.

    I’d like to think that wasn’t controversial.

  179. Thanks for the link to the Kalecki article on the politics of full employment.

    It is a good article MJ & easy to read. I thought even Neil may be able to understand a little of it, but I doubt that he even attempted to read it – sad really…

  180. Also I find it hard to believe that Labor is taxing less.

    Mr Koukoulas got all of his figures from Treasury (budget papers) or the ABS Neil. If you find it hard to believe, go to the primary sources and do your own research. Once again, I know you won’t because it will tell you a story you don’t want to hear 😦

  181. Regrettably lots of effort wasted here on the RWF. These morons don’t understand Economics, that’s why no Liberal treasurer has ever been awarded International Finance Minister of the Year (and two Labor treasurers have). The extent of their comprehension is a few deceptive memes drummed into their heads with repetition by the Lying Rodent, the hammock-dwelling Costello and (if you’ll pardon the tautology), the Liberal media.

    Frankly, CWers, you’d have more success trying to teach your dog Quantum Physics!

  182. The free market economists are a strange lot. They have been, and continue to be, silent about the global financial crisis and they opposed to the use of market mechanisms (an emissions trading scheme) to deal with carbon dioxide pollution from coal fired power stations.

    With respect to the latter, the Australian design is one of a fixed price period followed by Australia’s carbon price being linked to, and largely set by, the European price. Australia becomes a part of an international carbon market. The transition from a small standalone carbon market to a much larger international market will greatly increase market efficiency, providing Australian businesses with improved liquidity, reduced volatility, lower marginal costs of abatement and lower transaction costs.

    The free market economists at the IPA, who are hostile to subsidies for green energy schemes, are also opposed to the carbon market setting the carbon floor price. In emissions trading the government merely sets the target; it is the market that sets the price. Alan Moran, for instance, talks of a humiliating backdown in the AFR:…………………

    http://www.sauer-thompson.com/archives/opinion/2012/08/something-rotte.php

    It is fun, watching the Opposition attacking Combet and the PM for listening to industry when making adjustments to the CEF.

  183. Bacchus- It makes no sense to me. Perhaps revenue has fallen because of the GFC. This does not mean they are taxing less.

    Capital Gains tax receipts have dropped because of the GFC. It will take years before all the deductions filter through the system.

    Also unemployment has gone from 4% to 5%. It may not seem like a large increase but that is a lot of people not paying income tax.

    I remember being told by you lot that Howard changed the way the unemployment rate was measured to make his govt’s employment rate look better. This also made no sense to me because the ALP Opposition would be condemning this if it was true. Turns out that allegation was a load of crap.

    I suspect the point that Stephen Koukoulas is trying to make is also a load of crap.

    And govt is not smaller. Rudd said he would take a meataxe to the PS. Well he lied. The PS now employs more people and spends more money. So govt is not smaller.

  184. I suspect the point that Stephen Koukoulas is trying to make is also a load of crap.

    But you just can’t put your finger on that reason can you.

    Could it because it isn’t ‘crap’?

    Two weeks ago, the secretary of the Treasury, Dr Martin Parkinson, in a speech to the Committee for Economic Development in Australia (CEDA), rang a pretty loud bell for all politicians when he stated:

    [T]he taxation base is weaker than we had imagined in the mid-2000s. … The takeout message is that the days of large surpluses being delivered by buoyant tax receipts are behind us. While economic activity rebounded quite quickly after the global financial crisis, tax receipts are expected to remain substantially lower – around $20 billion per annum lower at the Commonwealth level alone – than pre-crisis projections.

    Just to make it clear, this isn’t a recent belief; Dr Parkinson had mentioned much the same back in March when, in a speech to the Australia-Israel Chamber of Commerce, he noted:

    The tax-to-GDP ratio has fallen by 4 percentage points since the GFC, and is not expected to recover to its pre-crisis level for many years to come.

    In other words, all other things being equal, the amount of revenue the Government would now get each year compared to during the boom period is around $20 billion less.

    When you consider that the 2007-08 budget surplus was $19.7 billion, this highlights the problems for political parties and their policies.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4228336.html

    What was all that about Swan making up this ‘structural defisit’ analysis?

  185. Curious. Does one measure the size of the government by the number of PS.

    I suspect not.

    The government uses many different ways to get what they want done. They use contractors. They use NGOs. They used the private sector directly.

    They subsidise others to carry out government roles. Like monies paid to private schools and hospitals. Where does the Health Fund subsidies come into the equation,

    They build armies.

    How does one measure the size of government activity.

  186. tax receipts are expected to remain substantially lower – around $20 billion per annum lower at the Commonwealth level alone – than pre-crisis projections.”

    Well then why are we running $45B budget deficits??? The drop in revenue should equal Costello’s last surplus and the budget will be neutral.

    But it is ALP policies that lead to less revenue

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/taxes-a-drag-on-coal-kloppers-warns-investors-20120823-24oyp.html

    BHP Billiton head Marius Kloppers has told European investors that Australia’s carbon and mining taxes have helped to render the nation’s coal industry unworthy of further investment at this time.”

  187. Well then why are we running $45B budget deficits?

    You have your answer yourself nil

    Also unemployment has gone from 4% to 5%. It may not seem like a large increase but that is a lot of people not paying income tax.

    The reason for these deficits was the splurge that kept things moving along while the private sector shit itself. The libs would have spent almost as much, but, going on their reaction to Labors stimulus, which has become widely regarded as the best in the world, it is highly unlikely that it would have achieved the same results

  188. Neil, does that mean the statement that Kloppers made to the Shareholders ans Stock Exchange was lies. That is a criminal offence, I believe.

  189. Neil, this far down the track, cherry picking sentences no longer works. Most know the context the sentences are coming from.

  190. I fail to see how the right, over decades lower the tax rates and expect that there is ample tax base to carry out the responsibilities of government.

    I suspect lowering income tax, narrows the base. If the wealthy do not pay tax, the money has to come from somewhere.

    What has been occurring at the same time, is replacing progressive taxes with regressive taxes.

    This has led to a widening of the gap between rich and poor.

    What it means the tax burden has been transferred to those on lower incomes.

    It has moved from the ability to pay, to all paying.

  191. @Min. Damn blog expands faster than I can read it…
    regarding using Asylum Seekers, I wasn’t buying into the jobs going begging thing. Just asking if its a viable alternative – presumably with training. As an idea I thought it could work as an alternative to Gina’s ‘bring in cheap foreign labour’ idea while giving them useful skills in an environment that allows them to learn to integrate – like the snowy mountains scheme did for Europeans after WW2. It negates the need to process offshore AND the ‘not in our community’ brigade AND the ‘they don’t integrate’ mob while allowing them to contribute to the nation and earn a wage prior to being accepted as refugees or returned home.

  192. “Shush…Barry don’t be too obvious, now you’ve given away my plans for Australia’s workers”.
    It’s not going to be Work Choices it’s going to be “MY CHOICES”
    They should not have a say, business knows best!

    80,000 NSW public sector workers are set to lose salary benefits and conditions under sweeping cuts to their awards.

    The O’Farrell government has applied to the NSW Industrial Commission this week to change 98 awards for public sector workers, including 1000 nurses who assist people with disabilities and those in aged-care facilities.

    Clerical staff
    Librarians
    Parks and gardens staff
    School administration assistants
    Regulatory inspectors
    Legal officers

    These are also among those set to lose their entitlement to long-held conditions, including their annual leave loading of 17.5 per cent.

    The government also plans to cut penalties for all shift workers and allowances for staff stationed in remote areas.

    Then there’s some sick leave entitlements, flexible work arrangements and parental leave would also be affected by the changes.
    http://www.goodluckstroke.com/2012/08/abbottofarrell-and-newmanthe-future-for.html

  193. Isn’t workchoices already with us via short term contracts? You don’t need to worry about unfair dismissal if you only have 3 or 6 month contracts. If those contracts only offer limited benefits then no negotiation is required to screw the maximum out of potential employees.

  194. Coles Supermarkets is seeking to have thrown out of court allegations it underpaid trolley collectors at five Adelaide shopping centres.

    The Fair Work Ombudsman has launched legal action in the Federal Court against the supermarket and four contractors who employed collectors at West Lakes, Elizabeth, Craigmore, Munno Para and Gawler.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-08-29/coles-rejects-trolley-collector-underpayment-claims/4230822

    I wonder what percentage of their costs, the wages of these people are.

  195. BMac, I think that Julia had a good idea regarding immigration, that priority be given to migrants who would be prepared to locate to regions where there are shortages in the workforce, such as depleted major regional centres. I can’t see why this couldn’t likewise apply to asylum seekers.

  196. “Well then why are we running $45B budget deficits??? The drop in revenue should equal Costello’s last surplus and the budget will be neutral.”

    For starters Neil, budget outcomes are what economists call “flows”, water under the bridge.

    Last year’s surplus cannot be added to this year’s deficit in the belief they might somehow cancel.

    Sort of like how adding last year’s floods to a previous year’s drought would turn a wipe-out into a bumper crop.

    You can turn deficits into “stocks” by issuing debt but when you understand the process by which the government injects money into the economy you begin to get the joke. The joke that is, sadly, on us all.

  197. We are in a new world.

    ………..[T]he taxation base is weaker than we had imagined in the mid-2000s. … The takeout message is that the days of large surpluses being delivered by buoyant tax receipts are behind us. While economic activity rebounded quite quickly after the global financial crisis, tax receipts are expected to remain substantially lower – around $20 billion per annum lower at the Commonwealth level alone – than pre-crisis projections.
    Just to make it clear, this isn’t a recent belief; Dr Parkinson had mentioned much the same back in March when, in a speech to the Australia-Israel Chamber of Commerce, he noted:
    The tax-to-GDP ratio has fallen by 4 percentage points since the GFC, and is not expected to recover to its pre-crisis level for many years to come.
    In other words, all other things being equal, the amount of revenue the Government would now get each year compared to during the boom period is around $20 billion less…………….

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4228336.html

  198. Sounds good to me Min, and how could the libels knock it back? If the mines are complaining of a lack of people then, in the words of Bush, slightly modified for local consumption, ‘onshore processing mission accomplished…’

  199. I would like to know neils opinions on ginas comments, if you consider his argument was based on higher wages for miners?

  200. Pingback: Give it up, Tony | Café Whispers

  201. Pingback: I’m sorry . . . from the bottom of my heart | Café Whispers

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