Carbon Price Countdown: It takes a first step

This post was first published on my personal blog and is part of a series of posts about why I support the Clean Energy Future package negotiated by the Greens, independents and ALP.read the first post in the series.

One of the biggest reasons I support the Clean Energy Future package negotiated by the Greens, the independents and the ALP is that it is an important step forward. Everything to date had been nothing else but talk and conjecture. There had been plenty of statements about time running out. In fact ‘time is running out’ has been a favourite phrase for a few decades and was most recently uttered again during the Rio+20 conference.

However Australia is embarking on the first step, and it’s the first step that’s always the hardest, to taking action on climate change. It might seem like a bitter pill to some but personally I’m happy to see Australia’s largest polluters having a price put on their pollution. Sure some of these companies have immediately used the carbon price as an excuse to pass on the full cost of the price on them. But this was to be expected. No-one was denying it but that’s why the federal government has been rolling out compensation packages for Australians as energy prices rise.

It’s important to remember as Tony Abbott and Senator Brandis blame everything on the coming price on pollution that many energy companies are also passing on significant costs of their failure to properly maintain and upgrade their networks and infrastructure; among other reasons.

The price on pollution is not going to see the sky fall in.

I support the price on pollution and I’m more than happy to pay for my emissions footprint. There is so much more that needs to be done. And it certainly doesn’t help having four states of Australia actively working against our commitment to action on climate change.

The Clean Energy Future package is an important first step in the right direction.

I look forward to hearing your reasons for supporting the Clean Energy Future package. Leave your comments below.

160 comments on “Carbon Price Countdown: It takes a first step

  1. HAHAHAHAHAHAH! A tax that does nothing for the environment that will be repealed.

    Clean energy future? Coal is king and will remain so for decades.

  2. A tax that does nothing for the environment

    At the very least, it will at least encourage the use of alternative energies that are not as polluting to the environment, regardless of any impact on global warming.

    Such an empty statement scaper. So like you.

  3. All very amusing… ‘the coming price on pollution’…you must have missed my earlier lecture where I proved conclusively that CO2 is a harmless trace gas and should not be taxed.

    To call it ‘a pollutant’ as Princess Julia has done repeatedly…is an abomination and abuse of the language.

  4. It is a pointless futile gesture, while the rest of the world continue to expand their polluting habits. This is solely a means of expanding the government’s coffers to fund more of their wasteful expenditure. Taxation in this country now makes it a waste of time to be gainfully employed, when the majority of your earnings are devoured by the Federal and State governments.

  5. Yep, the tax will do absolutely nothing for the environment and will be repealed.

    You can sit in a cave whipping your own back but the rest of Australia will be laughing at you people.

    Your abuse does not bother me as that is all you have…HAHAHAHAH!

  6. At the very least, it will at least encourage the use of alternative energies that are not as polluting to the environment, regardless of any impact on global warming.

    then

    Yep, the tax will do absolutely nothing for the environment

    😯

  7. It’s wiki, Tom, words have meaning

    so do numbers dopey, The little numbers near the text represent References. Take it up with them. There is no ambiguity, just the fact that it describes what the word means.

  8. Numbers is a pure science, words remain elusive.

    Are you really that immensely stupid that you failed to look at the references in that wiki article

    Hang on, don’t answer that, no need

    I’m with Gina, let’s talk about the science.

    As long as it says what you want, else, it is propaganda, right

  9. The world hasn’t warmed in 17 years, Gina would have confirmed this fact if they had given her three seats. Not propaganda, scientific truth.

  10. Min, very interesting…there is someone in NSW doing something similar.

    Been watching other biofuel projects that are being privately funded.

    Still against any form of tax on CO2 because it does nothing for the environment.

  11. No he didn’t troll

    Again, the Indian and Pacific Oceans represent 75% of the surface of the global oceans and together they have not warmed in 17 years.

    You cannot even get your cherry picking correct

  12. Scaps, it’s UQ and UniSA who are the leaders..at least in Australia. The results are excellent. I remember us talking about this a few years back..how unviable farmland could be utilized. That was when Tim Dunlop was helping you with your website.

  13. Yeah, I remember those days. Around four years ago. The days before the serious effects of Myrtle Rust and the Asian bees.

    No interest from the government, apiarists from as far as SA are fighting the bees up north. No honey bees, no food and the CO2 tax is taking the attention away from real environmental problems.

  14. if you accept the propositions being put forward by scaper and el gordo, dumping is perfectly legal and actually a good thing… whether it dumping waste of the ground or waste in the air it is pollution and those responsible should be made clean it up, they had time to do it on their own AND DIDN’T

  15. now there is a financial incentive to clean up the mess, as they should regardless of which other country does or does not… as decent world citizens it is appropriate. As for the repeal.. I wouldn’t count on that, Mr Abbott tells fibs and will find a way to change his mind…why because its the best option.
    (sorry for the broken comment)

  16. The smog over Beijing is a pollutant and can be reduced, the CO2 emissions from Chinese factories is not a pollutant. They have time to clean up their act and they will do it.

  17. ‘a financial incentive to clean up the mess’

    There is no mess to clean up…its a travesty.

  18. The smog over Beijing is a pollutant and can be reduced

    And a price on carbon can help do that

    Yet scaper still says it will do nothing for the environment.

    He is almost as duplicitous as yourself.

    the CO2 emissions from Chinese factories is not a pollutant.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollutant#Fund_pollutants

    I’ll just keep doing it every time you lie about it 😉

  19. Signe, I agree. Times change. Once there was motivation to make improvements..but now there is little evidence of that happening. If there is no self-motivation, then the only logical alternative is penalties.

  20. Tom, the idea that CO2 causes global warming is still in the theoretical stage and a little premature to tax this benign gas.

  21. Alex, and initiatives are not just good for the environment but mean substantial reductions in power bills etc. For example, in Victoria insulation has been compulsory in all new dwellings since the mid ’70’s and water tanks for about the last 5 years. All initiatives save on power, save wasting finite resources, benefit the consumer.

  22. Laugh away, scaper. I predict you’ll be laughing out the other side of your face when Liealot hits you up for an extra $1,300/ year to pay for his actual carbon tax plus another $600+ when he lowers the tax free threshold to $6,000.

    And then there’ll be all the extra revenue he’ll need to raise to fill his $70bn black hole as well as the increases in energy charges so the energy companies can update their infrastructure which they’ve neglected for decades.

    And I guess the companies Liealot is going to hit for the rich mothers club, will jack up their prices to claw back another one of Liealot’s GREAT BIG NEW TAXES, so yuck it up while you can. You’ll be sobbing when he rips another few grand out of your sky rocket.

    I predict you and your fellow barrackers will be imploring the ALP to get rid of the Liars after they lay waste to your hip pocket. It will certainly bring a smile to my face listening to the tales of woe from the barrackers.

    It will almost compensate for being robbed blind by that mob of incompetents.

    Just as a matter of interest, do you know if they’ve found a catering company to write their economic policy?

  23. grodo, the bullshit meter is red hot after that load of cobblers from you. CO2 is not a harmless trace gas; any Yr8 Science student would be able to call you on that.

    Next thing you’ll be claiming it’s weightless and can’t be measured. Where tf do you get this crap? Not from any reputable source, obviously.

  24. Ah yes the fanatics come out with their theories about how CO2 isn’t a pollutant when it is. Just because plants use CO2 for photosynthesis does not mean it is not a pollutant because enough CO2 will kill a plant. Though I find it odd that many people that use this argument fail to understand that during the night plants use oxygen.

    I also enjoy the constant banging on about how the weather hasn’t warmed. Well done on having a total lack of scientific rigour to read the papers. I’m amazed at how many people totally fail to remember (willingly or otherwise) their science education from high school about the greenhouse effect. But then I guess the people coming here enjoy polluted rivers and dams. They must love seeing hectares upon hectares of destroyed forests that are used in power stations.

    Our constant polluting of the environment (whether through greenhouse emissions or pollutants into rivers, waterways and landscapes) without cost will only see our life systems eroded and destroyed. Hardly a great outcome. So if companies are unwilling to make investment and business process choices that limit their environmental damage then the government has to step in.

    It’s an important first step and one I’m glad is being made now and not when it’s clear it’s too late.

  25. Alex, what a great post and I thank you for putting it up here at the Cafe.

    Anyway, I’ve just popped in to let you know that our Patricia was hit by a car this morning while walking her dog. She’s in hospital with a fractured tibia and should be home in a few days.

    I’m sure you will join me in wishing her a speedy recovery and pass on our best wishes.

  26. She has a dog called Tibia??

    Seriously, hope all is well Patricia, and that you are up and about in no time.

  27. Alex, I’d like to add my thanks to Migs’s and everyone else.

    Migs, that’s rotten news from patricia. Is Tacker OK? Please pass on my best for a speedy recovery.

  28. Thanks Migs for passing on that news.

    Such terrible news about Patricia but I’m very glad to hear she’s okay. I certainly hope she has a speedy recovery.

  29. Ah el gordo, troll after troll and on cue they all jump in and feed the troll.

    It’s the same single sentence bull with no attempt to lucidly debate. Just provocations, even throwing Rinehart in as an expert now.

    Just tell the troll to go away or ignore the posts until something credulous and lucid is offered.

  30. Patricia for you..

    ‘Poetry is what in a poem makes you laugh, cry, prickle, be silent, makes your toe nails twinkle, makes you want to do this or that or nothing, makes you know that you are alone in the unknown world, that your bliss and suffering is forever shared and forever all your own.’ Dylan Thomas

  31. Ah! Troll attack! Möbius Ecko is right… There should be a sign, like at the zoo: Please refrain from feeding the Trolls (Homo Ignoramus) as they can be aggressive and predictable.
    This post is great, the comments are a great indication of how badly sound, reasonable arguments are not being heard, and desperately needed. Aussies who aren’t fearful of the sky falling in, who have bothered to engage the international body of research and debate understand this is a step forward towards change. Change is always met by the smallest of minds and most fearful with the loudest calls of terror, we have a long history which details this trend over and over again. Electricity, telephones, trains, medical technology, the internet. And yet we look back and think how the hell did we ever get by before?! People will feel the same about renuable energy resources one day too. Generations will look back and shake their heads at how long we took before we started using clean free energies and how much we wasted in the mean time.The positive, fearless voices need to be loud and clear right now. Well done.

  32. Ugh, Liberal trolls here at the Cafe too.

    They’ve got the whole bloody mainstream media running their filth 24/7, but that’s still not enough. They’ve got to come and pollute independent blogs like this too.

    1) Ignore the trolls. Don’t read their ‘comments’. Scroll past.

    2) Don’t respond to them. Don’t address any comments to them.

    3) If you absolutely cannot resist having a go at the trolls, do so in the third person. Talk about them in mocking tones. Poke fun at them, but don’t talk TO them.

    If you deprive them of oxygen their lifespan as trolls goes onto borrowed time.

  33. Some of these Liberal trolls are friends. 😉 I’ve never know the Café to not accept comments. I shouldn’t imagine that they’re going to start doing this any time soon.

    One you start censoring opinions, then the blog ends up nothing more than a Bolt blog, leftie variety.

  34. One you start censoring opinions

    Opinions are fine. reposting denier talking points is another.

    And, as ME know, ignoring doesn’t work. grodo is impervious to any kind of rbuttal or ignoring. It is best, imo, to just highlight the stark stupidity, and their complete inability to enter into any debate over the issue, as we saw earlier. grodo simply ignores the debate, and puts up his/her/its next denial point.

    Doing this unchallenged just allows a thread to become a dumping ground for ignorance. The media put too much of the anti-science garbage out there too, I’ll be buggered if I’ll let it infest a site like this without comment.

  35. Obviously some people do not know what a troll is. These days anyone that does not have the same group think are trolls…I see it on both left and right blogs.

    The left attack in groups with abuse and the right attack individually with smarmy sarcastic commments.

    Had a good laugh being called a Liberal though. Didn’t laugh at someone alluding to that I have no concern for the environment…something to ponder when I’m in the Oxley Creek with an electric chainsaw using fish oil as lubricant clearing out the ferals. Anyone that blindly supports either side is being fooled.

    Having a bad run, Migs. Best wishes for your wife’s recovery.

  36. Rebut their filth, but I say, treat Liberal trolls with the contempt with which the lousy Liberals treat the Australian people. That is, total.

  37. I rest my case.

    There was a case?

    trolls are puppets who continually post their world view, and refuse to enter into discussion about them

    You know, like when someone says “A tax that does nothing for the environment” to which someone else replies “At the very least, it will at least encourage the use of alternative energies that are not as polluting to the environment, regardless of any impact on global warming.” and which you rejoin with the amazing “A tax that does nothing for the environment” 😯

    It was just pointed out to you that it does in fact do something for the environment, to which you did not address anything, just repeated your mantra.

    you, yomm, grodo, cast from the same 2d mould.

  38. Troll again at 3:19.

    Thanks for proving my point so emphatically.

    Throwing in nonsense once sentence posts to be provocative is not having an opinion, it’s trolling.
    Throwing in out of context graphs and images is not an opinion, it’s trolling.
    Being emphatic and making assertive “I’m right you are all wrong” statements based on mostly nothing or by sourcing discredited people or organisations is not an opinion, it’s trolling. Especially when time and again it’s pointed out where the flaws are, but that’s ignored only to be regurgitated over again down the track. That’s trolling.

    I gave the benefit of the doubt a while back, but since then I’ve seen one or two sentence nonsense posts regularly published so as to be provocative, and for no other reason, so often now that benefit of the doubt has vanished.

    The posting yet again of an out of context graph (a graph regurgitated by the way) without explanation or sourcing, just a one sentence throw away line accompanying it, after we have repeatedly requested explanations and sources, and yes opinion on why, for these thrown up graphs demonstrates the disingenuousness.

    What el gordo does is trolling, not just having a different opinion. The proof is also the moment one of the often thrown up one or two sentence posts is challenged for a deeper explanation or evidence, the challenge is either ignored or a post on a totally different subject/tact is thrown in, also framed to provoke a response away from the previous challenge.

    It’s why el gordo was given their own thread elsewhere, so the derailing and nonsense posts could be corralled.

  39. ‘grodo simply ignores the debate, and puts up his/her/its next denial point.’

    The real debate is whether the ‘precautionary principle’ was rushed, but your narrow view doesn’t even allow for this possibility. That is the political aspect.

    When a credible scientist like Santer (IPCC lead writer) questions the veracity of the theoretical models, we might assume the science is not settled.

  40. Then you tell me how placing a tax on CO2 will benefit the environment. How much of the tax collected will be devoted to the feral weeds, pests, native rehab and the like?

  41. Then you tell me how placing a tax on CO2 will benefit the environment

    😯

    At the very least, it will at least encourage the use of alternative energies that are not as polluting to the environment

  42. Is that all you’ve got? The time will come when alternatives will be the order of the day but I doubt it will be in my lifetime.

    Until then, coal is king.

  43. ‘Until then, coal is king.’

    Yep and for the simple reason that there’s no alternative to base load coal at the moment.

  44. one point that always amuses me about Carbon tax is that its one that is eternally estimated and that not one smokestack will ever have any kind of metering to measure the actual amount of emissions.
    That said the who Carbon tax edifice is a joke in terms of the environment, the economy and as for changing peoples behaviour, well it will certainly affect their tendency to vote for the current government and consign Labor to the wilderness for a decade at least. So do those here who want a left of centre government really think that the Carbon tax will be a good thing? Face it folks The Carbon tax that Gillard promised never to introduce (cue hair splitting excuse making that its a “price” rather than a tax) is in reality the Labor equivalent to Howard’s “workchoices” and like workchoices it will be the idea that dare not speak its name after the next election.

  45. Scaper, therefore you’ve given up on he idea of the great inland city, redirection of rivers from the north, the great inland rail system.

  46. Min – exactly.

    A price on carbon is this simple in my (some say simple) mind. I pay rates to the Council of which part goes to supply a suitable truck and driver to come around every week to empty a bin (again supplied by the Council) that I fill with household emissions – food scraps, plastic and so on. They have a number of costs to provide this service and if I have what is considered to be excessive emissions, I am charged additional cost for an additional bin.

    As it is difficult to “see” carbon emissions in the air, I believe those who have some experience in the area who tell me that they do exist (just as scientists and engineers believe me when I produce a professional opinion on an issue where I am considered to have considerable knowledge). They tell me these emissions are potentially harmful to my and my children’s way of life. There is no way to “take away and treat” these emissions so the only effective way to remove them is to stop their emission. It seems that some large companies who are responsible for the production of these emissions are content to do so (others have made efforts to remove emissions to the air). The Carbon Price is an effective tool (i.e. money) to make those that obviously couldn’t care about my or my family’s future on a habitable planet to rethink their ways.

    Sure they will pass on some of the cost – and some emissions are unavoidable with current technology, the Government will arrange some reimbursement for that. But I’m also in the position to purchase a cheaper product or service produced by a company that has reduced/eliminated their emissions – and subsequently doesn’t pay a price for throwing carbon emissions up a chimney, saving me money and the environment in which I and my family live.

  47. Yep and for the simple reason that there’s no alternative to base load coal at the moment.

    See there you go again. You put up that same one sentence post a couple of times before. We post links and articles showing that there are other renewable sources of baseload, so you then go off onto another tangent ignoring our response, and here you are again posting the one sentence assertion.

    Someone will respond and give sources and articles, which you will duly ignore and then out of the blue submit that one sentence post again.

  48. I bet scaper and Iain even those they hate The Carbon Tax, well be still putting their hands for the rebate?

    And why has Iain failed to mentioned Howard never ever GST or that Abbott accepted a form of Carbon Tax?

    Face it folks, both are willing to come up with abuse and lies, but not willing to face the truth.

  49. You must be a true Liberal Supporter and paid up Member and owned by Hartless, if you come out with claims that The Carbon Tax well not work based on emotions not facts, don’t mentioned Howard never ever GST and don’t mentioned Abbott actually accepted a form of Carbon Tax?

  50. Thankyou Alex. I realise i will be on a hiding to no where using logic in reply to some of the posters above. But here goes anyway. As is well known, carbon pricing is an incentive for the large polluters. It is not really about the consumers. Most of the carbon pollution comes from the top polluters not the smallest players. However we can all do our bit. So, an example of how the system will work; A large polluter such as a steel works or a cement manufacturer. Both businesses will have to pay for emissions, something in the order of a 1% wage rise or equal to the daily effects of the girations associated with the Australian dollar on imputs. The cost to the business is small in percentage terms yet as in aggregate the amount is sufficient to offer an incentive to reduce the balance sheet cost. Pioneer concrete across a couple of plants may have to pay 20 million (an example only) whilst the cost would not shut down the operation, given the large sunk cost investments they would be able to sponser a dozen PHD students to research ways to reduce the emissions within the industrial processes. It will be of no suprise that much of the up grading of industry has been pushed back to take advantage of the initial savings.

  51. ‘See there you go again.’

    We discussed the Spanish experiment the other day and I thought it worthwhile. To replace the electricity needs of Sydney or Melbourne with gemsolar is a big ask…that’s real baseload.

  52. ‘…links connected to The Liberals?’

    Didn’t know it was…I found it at a right wing think tank.

  53. Isn’t it good to seer The Liberal Troll, thinks it is ok, prices went up for anyone because of The never ever GST?

  54. dear editor
    marshall mcluhan predicted the conditions of our climate change “debate”: a wired-up global village, where every village idiot’s an expert, and no expert’s an authority. the inevitable unstoppable outcome of the fusion of computers & satellite telephony. our society’s paralysis is inevitable in our technology.
    yours sincerely
    alfred venison

  55. Thanks Russell and I think you did a great job of explaining how the carbon price will work and why it will force industry to change their business processes to reduce emissions and avoid being slugged with a price on their carbon pollution.

    Thanks again.

  56. Your welcome Alex, perhaps to gase into the future and where the next steps into decarbonising the economy will go. You may have heard of managed investment scheme’s, olive groves, tree plantations, wineries etc. Whilst these investments have had a chequered history they have created critical mass for a number of new agricultural industries from scratch (Australian olive oil for one). Most of the investment funds are put together within the funds management divisions of banks, brokerages and financial planning groups. Should the current government tighten up some of the rules this is likely to be a great source of capital for the future. The banking and investment industry is currently doing it tough (it all realative). (In 2008 we couldn’t find enough high quality investments) A new wave of locally sourced growth would be hard for them to resist. An investment of this sort would put a bunch of tax breaks down for the higher earners to place real funds into something like Gemsolar (noted above). To give you some idea of the quantum of investment, in 2008 Australians poured 14 billion into this area. That is more than 14 base load solar power stations. Contemplate what that would do when trying to resind a carbon price…

  57. Found a link at a right wing think (LOL) tank?

    What a true and loyal Liberal Supporter el gordo is?

    They must be proud of their members with lack of research skills?

  58. ‘Speaking at an international coal symposium, Resources and Energy Minister Martin Ferguson said Victoria could soon deliver its first export shipments of modified brown coal.

    ‘With the state possessing about 9 per cent of the world’s recoverable brown coal reserves, Mr Ferguson said it could become a mining powerhouse akin to the Pilbara, the North-West Shelf, the Hunter Valley and central Queensland.’

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/pilbara-plan-for-victoria-20120418-1x7ox.html#ixzz1z5PTKwtD

    For the sake of the planet we should leave it in the ground?

  59. scraper…junior wrote:

    Can el gordo do any better, then put up links connected to The Liberals?

    No, they can’t do any better. If they could, they would see through the Liberal lies and spin.

  60. Nice one Russell. Thanks for the follow up. It’s clear that the NOalition’s rhetoric is just that – rhetoric. There is no way the NOalition can wind back the Clean Energy Future package without doing far more damage to future growth and sustainability of the economy than the package’s introduction.

  61. Scaper said:

    “no one owns me!”

    So very, very true. After all, who would want to own an intellectual liability?

  62. ‘There is no way the NOalition can wind back the Clean Energy Future package’

    That’s not true, it only takes political will. It will be expensive to dismantle, but a lot cheaper than keeping it in place.

    Assuming we go to the election with the tax in place, Labor will lose. They still have the senate refusing to bend, so Abbott will go to a double D…destroying the Greens and Labor for a generation or more.

  63. Alex,

    How do we know the NO coalition give a damn about the future growth and sustainability of the economy? They SAY they’re better economic managers, but that’s just spin; the evidence of their actions when in government does not back it up.

    I think all they care about is getting their silver-plated butts onto the leathered seats of power. There to do the bidding of resource billionaires, fat plutocrats and greedy media moguls, cut the wages (ie living standards) of working people, and “let ‘er rip” on the environment.

    God is coming back any minute now to take the ‘true believers’ to somewhere better, so who cares about this earthly coil. That’s what a lot of them believe, starting with Rabbott.

  64. Col,

    After all, who would want to own an intellectual liability?

    Lol, the Liberals would. Firm reliable voter base.

  65. ‘the evidence of their actions when in government does not back it up.’

    The Howard /Costello years had us in surplus, but that’s no indication they are good money managers.

    I know Swan is trying to get us back in surplus after some recent blowouts beyond his control.

  66. Yes Alex, winding back the carbon pricing system would be very difficult indeed. In short, it’s not going to happen. Take for example contracts for delivery written over the issued permits going out a couple of years out past the fixed price date. These are property assets just like the right to purchase wheat, oil, coal and any number of commoddities. Once these are issued, options to buy the rights will be issued. I guess the good folk in the Coalition are going to pick a fight with a number of large banks and the associated law firms to compensate the loss of property. (I’m sure it will be really cheap). But worst of all for the neanderthal liberal party is if some trading of these rights occured with California and Korea. Greg Combet is currently working on this right now. Why, because compensating Australian financial players is one thing picking a fight with the American banking system is something even Sophie Mirabella would have to think about.

  67. so Abbott will go to a double D

    Better think back to the history of DD elections EG. I think you’ll find that in most cases, the sitting government, if returned, was returned with a reduced margin. In two out of the six DD elections held, the government lost its majority, so maybe it might be prudent not to rely so heavily on that method of enacting your delusional position 😉

  68. Cuppa, scaper is well known around the ‘tubes’.

    He’s a wannabe. Very sad case.

    But seriously, he ought to be more pitied rather than criticised. Did you know he claims to have an alcoholic wife who loses ‘valuable’ rings, ear adornments and the like when under the influence?

    But like Gina, his ‘mentor’, he can be very aggressive.

  69. Thanks Cuppa.

    You do raise a good point. Although one would imagine if they believe in supporting big business then they should be leading the charge to make sure we maintain our competitive edge. It seems big business is having less problems with it than the LOTO.

    But then

  70. A number of good points have been made on this post. And by some unexplainable coincidence they’ve been made by left-leaning individuals. 😉

  71. Also sends the system out of sync. I do not believe that many firms will the uncertainty, The effect of the price on carbon emission is not worth it. There are many, many bushiness that are going to thrive out of the new economic regime.

    Many, maybe most big business agree to some type of scheme. Most see it as inevitable.

    Do not forget, most do not want the Direct Action Scheme.

    No, if he is ever in the driving seat, he will quickly be told to put his foot on the brakes.

    Many vote for Howard, with the stupid belief that the Democrats would save then with the GST. This was not so.

  72. Alex,

    Competitive edge, that’s just it. The world is moving (some countries, very quickly) to low-emissions production.

    The wingnuts, with their eyes-tight-shut phobia of change, scream that Australia is ahead of the rest of the world. Not true, as you will know. If the wingnuts had their way we would be BEHIND the rest of the world, competitively retarded and irrelevant.

    They’d have us ‘lose the race’ because they were too fearful and resistant to change to even JOIN the race. And they wonder why they’re seen as morons.

  73. EL Gordo trolled …”For the sake of the planet we should leave it in the ground?” … hear, hear el gordo glad to see that you can extrapolate 😀 umm, but if, as you say, there is no Co2 prob. then why should we leave it in the ground ❓ ..

  74. Migs left leaning and proud of it. What does the PM say, This is the way, the Labor way.. or something like that.

    Most are not even going to notice anything after Sunday. Big power bills are nothing new at this time.

    Some might notice a drop in tax. Some have noticed a few dollars extra in their bank accounts. Woolworths and Coles are not putting prices up. I assume they have already converted their stores to be more power efficient.

    As for that other site, I suspect they are more interested in being against, than supporting any side. They are unusual in that.

    The PM’s performance today, does her proud. I still think she will have more to come when she greets the Indonesia leader, who arrives on Sunday.

  75. ‘why should we leave it in the ground’

    It’s only money and jobs for Victorians, why should I care?

  76. ‘enacting your delusional position’

    You may be correct on the history of double D elections, but as the people go to the polls a year from now it will be such a devastating defeat for your side of politics that the senate will quickly cave-in to the ‘dismantling’…to avoid further carnage.

  77. ‘And they wonder why they’re seen as morons.’

    Oddly enough, that’s how the other side sees the warmist coalition.

    It’s a black and white issue, with only a minority of the electorate believing in gorebull worming.

  78. In fact a third of Australians believe in human induced global warming…so I have my work cut out for me.

    Debriefing left wing grandmothers and girlie men (not that there is anything wrong with that) to explain that their faith in the scientific models is misguided and they have been brainwashed.

  79. It matters not a scrap who believes it climate change or not. My 88yr old mum believes in it..but then she’s a country girl and my late dad was an avid climate watcher.

    Mum versus Monckton..I’ll go with mum. 😉

  80. I don’t want to put your mum down at all Min, but I’d pick Daffy Duck over munktoon any day

  81. scaper…junior

    I bet scaper and Iain even those they hate The Carbon Tax, well be still putting their hands for the rebate?

    Its not a matter of putting one’s hand out if you meet the means test criteria the cash will just appear in your bank account and there is absolutely no mechanism to return the money.

    And why has Iain failed to mentioned Howard never ever GST or that Abbott accepted a form of Carbon Tax?


    Yawn!
    how convenient that you forget that before introducing the GST Howard went back to the people and got a mandate to introduce it.

    Face it folks, both are willing to come up with abuse and lies, but not willing to face the truth.

    We speak the truth mate and sadly you can’t handle the truth.

  82. Troll: and they have been brainwashed.

    Tom R: so says munktoons minion lol

    Yep, Tom, brainwashing is something they know a lot about. Either because they’re brainwashed themselves, or involved in trying to brainwash others. (Why else would they even be on a blog like this where they don’t ‘fit in’, if not trying to brainwash people).

    It’s definitely a deliberate push across the media. They’ve got networks of Liberal-biased talkback radio stations (“Hate Radio”) pushing the “It’s a hoax!” meme line 24/7. This hateful rubbish is relayed around the country, from Far North Queensland, down the east coast: Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, and into South Australia.

    They’ve got Bolt published regularly in many major newspapers. Bolt on TV, the IPA pests all over their ABC programs preaching the same rubbish.

    And then Mr Monckton came to Australia telling the denialists that they need to step up the media propaganda push even further with a Fox-style TV network. As if Australia,with among the most one-sided media of any democracy on the planet, is not enough.

    Yep, it’s all about the brainwashing. Every consumer of “mainstream” news or opinion, wherever they live in Australia, is subjected to this. Whether it be via hate radio, News Limited, Their ABC or the news bulletins on TV.

    So, aware they’re part of (or caught up by) one of the biggest brainwahsing exercises in the world, what’s their response / defense? To claim that the other side is brainwashed! “They’re just brainwahsed!” they cry.

    What they’re doing there is classic Right Wing Projection: RWFs projecting their own behaviour / motivations onto their opponents. In other words, accusing their opponents of the exact same thing they do themselves. It’s employed frequently as a tactic by RWFs. You can spot it from a mile off, time after time.

  83. And then Mr Monckton came to Australia telling the denialists that they need to step up the media propaganda

    Yes, I remember seeing the video with all the rwdb’s gathered around talking about buying out media to control their message/ Then, lo and behold, gina starts doing just what they were plotting.

    Glad Fairfax had the balls to stand up to her. Pity 10 weren’t as gutsy.

  84. ‘Whether it be via hate radio, News Limited, Their ABC or the news bulletins on TV.’

    Do you really think the ABC is biased? This is of great concern, because if both the left and right have lost faith in their Australian Brainwashing Company….its only a matter of time before Latham gets the job of axeman.

  85. “I’M NOT A TROLL, I’M NOT!”

    Thanx for your reassuring words Jaws, the vacuous mob at the cafe will not weary me. I’m only hanging out on one thread down there… to vent my spleen as July 1 draws ever closer.

  86. Tom R @ 9:28.

    That was rather pathetic of el gordo. It’s extremely disappointing. She needs to decide whether or not she wants to comment here or not, given her current attitude.

    Even a tolerant fellow like myself expected better.

  87. What does Sunday bring. The list goes on and on and on..

    What we know, from July 1:

    MORE FOR HOUSEHOLDS

    HIGHER INCOME TAX-FREE THRESHOLD Earnings of up to $18,200 tax-free (previously $6000)

    INCOME TAX CUTS Every worker earning up to $80,000 will pay less tax.
    Current scale Starting July
    From $6001 15% From $18,201 19%
    From $37,001 30% From $37,001 32.5%
    From $80,001 37% From $80,001 37%
    From $180,001 45% From $180,001 45%

    LOW INCOME SUPER TAX RELIEF: A payment of up to $500 a year will effectively mean no tax is paid on compulsory super contributions for workers earning up to $37,000 a year.

    SCHOOLKIDS BONUS Worth $410 per annum for each primary school student and $820 for each secondary school student for families on Family Tax Benefit A. To be paid each January and July from January 2013. An early full-year payment was made this month.

    EXTRA FAMILY TAX BENEFIT Families receiving the maximum rate of Family Tax Benefit Part A with two or more children will receive an extra $300 a year if they have one child, $600 a year for two or more children. Families receiving the base rate will get $100 a year if they have one child, $200 if they have two or more children.

    LUMP SUM SUPPLEMENTARY ALLOWANCE $210 a year for singles or $350 a year for couples receiving benefits such as Newstart, Youth Allowance, Austudy and Parenting Payment.

    ……….http://www.petermartin.com.au/2012/06/whatll-change-from-july-1-apart-from.html………………

  88. Now for some more good news

    “THE body that manages Australia’s electricity grid has for the first time forecast a fall in energy use, and predicted it will delay for years the need for investment in new power plants or transmission networks.

    The Australian Energy Market Operator says consumption will fall this year due to four factors: a decline in manufacturing, comparatively mild weather, the swift growth in rooftop solar panels and consumers reacting to rapidly rising electricity prices.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/energy-use-set-to-fall-for-first-time-20120628-215fj.html#ixzz1z9Ar2g6y

  89. Welcome back Patriciawa – glad to see you’re well enough to join us online. I’m sure TAbbott would be sympathetic and blame the carbon price for you getting injured.

  90. ‘She needs to decide whether or not she wants to comment here or not, given her current attitude.’

    Just a reminder that CW is on the The Daily Trash blog roll and I reserve the right to speak my mind here and there. You’re being far too precious.

    On the science of climate change not one of you has a clue and support the tax based only on faith.

    I’ll put this up again in the hope of reinforcing reality…feel free to comment.

    http://c3headlines.typepad.com/.a/6a010536b58035970c0168ebb1aa56970c-pi

  91. El gordo, I know that CW is on TDT’s Blogroll and I appreciate Reb including us. However, I, and I suspect Reb too, don’t appreciate childish behaviour.

  92. I could post up several sources that completely refute that C3 Headlines guff, but what’s the use with el gordo. They will be ignored, the refutations and the source for that bull bypassed and then another diversion made.

    Know who David Rose is? There’s the source

    The January Daily Mail article that spawned the no warming in 15 years has been refuted, just do a search and you will find info on it.

    But it’s no use debating with uncompromising idiotic statement like; “On the science of climate change not one of you has a clue and support the tax based only on faith.”

    See only el gordo, whose not a climate scientist nor an expert in anything really, especially anything to do with climate, makes these emphatic statements of being the only one of us all, and of all those scientists out there, and of all those proponents, who absolutely and irrefutably knows the fact who has a clue and knows for absolutely certainty there’s no global warming, a position that’s el gordo has flipped flopped on several times by the way, yet says we are the ones relying on “faith”.

    Joke doesn’t even begin to describe el gordo’s posts.

  93. ‘there’s no global warming, a position that’s el gordo has flipped flopped on several times …’

    There was global warming from 1976 to 1998, the big El Nino year, since then temperatures have flattened.

    ‘…and I suspect Reb too, don’t appreciate childish behaviour.’

    In the cafe the other day I overheard the editor of The Daily Trash say I admire Nick Minchin….this is a fallacy, I do not admire Minchin.

    Orders have come in from Denialati HQ not to fraternise after July 1….so I’ll leave you to it.

  94. I haven’t read all the comments because of the trolling, but did you know those really decent folk who are against carbon pricing are holding a rally in Melbourne on Sunday, with the wonderful Mr Jones as guest speaker. Nothing wrong with that, but did you also know the organisers are selling participants plastic baseball bats! Since when did we become so eager to show the absolute worst side of ourselves so publicly and think protesting with baseball bats is harmless fun?

  95. Julia, yes there has been a substantial amount of that. Baseball and plastic..??? Plastic morals..and that’s a certainty.

  96. Nah…they are blow ups, not plastic. Jones has his finger in everything! Watch for an organisation rising to take it up to GetUP. Watch that space but a hint…premier soup.

    Back to twirling the Montecristo with a Dead Arm shiraz ’06 as lubricant.

  97. Being plastic, they will be light enough for the oldies to wield.

    The extra money that the PM as put into their ban accounts should ensure they can afford the cost of getting to the rally.

  98. Has anyone noticed that Abbott has dropped the slogans and three word sentences that are repeated over and over and over…….

  99. Cu and Has anyone noticed that Abbott has dropped the slogans and three word sentences that are repeated over and over and over……. Has he increased it four???

  100. Back to twirling the Montecristo with a Dead Arm shiraz ’06 as lubricant.

    I’ve just been overwhelmed with an enormous amount of envy. 😦

    My reward for a decade and a half of service was a Henri Winterman’s half corona and a cup of coffee.

  101. No Min, he is in a prickle and has to use some real words to dig himself out of that hole.

    Now that rally, pity it is in Melbourne, if it was Sydney, I might turn up with the hundreds of plastic balls my grand daughters have, and see if they are capable of hitting anything. I suspect not. I feel that age may be slowing them up.

    it would be fun, standing in the sidelines, pelting those balls.

  102. Then off to the arcade you go tomorrow. As you know I gave the humidor and contents away a couple of years ago…lasted seven months and kicked myself.

    Now the stock is in the wine fridge in a box on top of the St Henri. Wife’s out with the girls and I’m sitting here with the windows open. Bliss.

  103. Migs, the rewards will be yours in the future..Karma is just about to take care of that. Don’t worry. It’s all going to work itself out soon.

  104. Last time I went to the Getuo rally near Central, the one in Hyde Park hardly registered.

    What I noticed at Central, the make up was of all ages, families and singles.

  105. Cu, the problem with me is that I always want to be on the go.

    I feel like a Montecristo. I know the arcade scaper is referring to. The local bottle shop also sells them, meaning I could kill two birds with one stone.

    Doing a mental shopping list now. A Montecristo No. 2 – check. A bottle of premium Coonawarra cab sav – check. A bottle of Jim Beam – check.

  106. Migs, it’s a matter of lateral thinking..it’s something that you told me a month or so ago. I am certain that it’s going to happen.

  107. “Already the carbon tax has seen Australia crash out of the Wimbledon singles. And I hadn’t realised little warm puppies and soft fluffy kittens would die in their thousands until Abbott visited an RSPCA animal shelter on Tuesday to tell us so. ” – Mike Carlton

    I personally had a bloody awful sleep last night..t’was the carbon tax which done it.

  108. ME, don’t feed the trol 😉

    Now he’s gotta go to wtfuwt and get another denialist point to spreay

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