Rhymin’ & Stealing

Anybody who has ever watched A Current Affair, or Today Tonight, on a reasonably regular basis will have seen the type of characters I will be writing about today.

I am talking about those blokes they usually show running from the camera, desperately trying to hide their face behind a newspaper.

These are the financial con men who rip off the unsuspecting. Normally these lowlifes target the elderly, trying to rob them of their retirement savings. Many have elaborate investment schemes to suck in the unwary with dodgy speculations of supposed profits.

The lesson to learn is whenever making financial decisions, always look for holes, and always check the fine print.

In 2010, three such conmen decided to go for a bigger prize than a pension cheque, and targeted the whole Australian economy, their names were Tony Abbott, Andrew Robb, and Joe Hockey.

These 3 Stooges, as I like to call them, thought they’d lie and cheat their way into government with their smoke, mirrors, and arrogance routine. They planned to take control, and give all their rich buddies tax breaks and passes on pollution. Buddies like Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest, Australia’s richest person. Under Labor, Twiggy looks like he will pay tax, the Liberals can’t be having that. Twiggy Forrest openly admitted on the ABCs Lateline that his company, Fortescue Metals, a $Multi Billion mining giant, has never paid tax. Never. Not a cent, ever. Kind of makes you wonder if John Howard and Peter Costello were asleep at the wheel, or just enjoyed the campaign contributions too much.

Whatever the reasons, I’m quite certain that the thousands upon thousands of you out there who own a small business and pay tax would not be happy to hear that the company that gave us Australia’s richest man has paid none.

So, just how did these 3 think they could swindle the Australian public?

Cast your mind back to the lead up to the 2010 Federal Election.

Julia Gillard and the Labor Party had released all of the costings for their policies, and all had been audited and verified by Treasury. This was done well ahead of time.

On the other side, we had Tony Abbott, and his “Gospel Truth Choir” of Andrew Robb and Joe Hockey, taking the economic conservative line and refusing to give their costings to treasury. Just trust us and our figures was the implication. Joe Hockey even suggested that the Treasury Department, an independent body, may manipulate the coalitions figures to look bad.

Even without auditing the Coaltions costings, the press soon uncovered an $11 Billion hole in the Liberals sloppy excuse for budgeting. This put the pressure back on the 3 Stooges to have their numbers checked, scrutinised, and audited by a reputable firm.

Shortly before the election the 3 Stooges fronted the press, all smiles and backslapping each other, they had appointed a firm in Perth who had gone over the Liberals costings with a fine tooth comb, and given it two thumbs up. Joe Hockey went on to explain, several times, that this had been an audit.

So, you may think this is where the story ends, but alas…

Last week it hit the press that the firm involved in Joe Hockey and The Stooges supposed audit, were being a little less than sloppy.

In fact, the fools who fudged the figures were actually fined, finally. Try that sentence fast after a few drinks…

At a Tribunal of The Institute Of Chartered Accountants, fines were handed down of $5000 each to the two accountants involved, as their work failed to state that the procedures used did not constitute an audit, or even a review.

This was sloppy work from the Liberals from start to finish.

It is interesting to note, that even with the dodgy accountants appointed to apply the smoke and mirrors, the Liberal costings still ended up with a $10.6 Billion  black hole, one can only imagine how bad they would have been if properly supervised.

There is no excuse for these 3 conmen of the lowest type, all of whom lied to the public about their poor excuse for costings.

Maybe Peter Costello was right when he told the press that Tony Abbott could not be trusted in matters of finance.

Maybe Tony Abbott himself was right when he said about himself that only those things in writing or in carefully scripted statements can be considered as gospel truth.

Either way, with these 3 at the helm, the Liberal Party has absolutely no financial credibility whatsoever.

So far based on what the Coalition has promised to cut, and what they have promised to keep, they already need to find $70 Billion for their figures, and we still have 2 years to go yet… No wonder Joe Hockey always looks sweaty.

It is now clear The Liberal Party cannot be trusted with our nations finances. These guys are not economic conservatives, they are financial terrorists.

And you can take that to the bank….

303 comments on “Rhymin’ & Stealing

  1. Wixxie. Congratulations for producing the silliest piece displayed inCafe Whispers. You are up against some very very tough competition but you have won hands down. Well done loser.

  2. It is a bit silly how these idiots thought that they would get away with it…. Almost as silly as those who criticise and don’t use a real name

  3. Ah well done wixxy. When you get an inane response from TS/Geoff like that then you know you’ve hit it on the head.

    Good article and so spot on.

  4. Wixxie. You do understand Swan has spent Costello’s surplus (Costello was debt free) plus another $230 Billion on top of that. Swan legislated the authorised debt level to $250 Billion and he is nudging up against it.
    The Coalition, as always, will fix Labors financial cockups. It will not be hard for Joe to NOT piss $240 Billion up against the wall in his first term as Treasurer.
    Even you Wixxie would make a better treasurer than Swan. You wouldn’t get a $250,000 Credit card and spend $230,000 of it. or maybe you would .
    .It’s Monday again ……another day closer to the election. I am patient.

  5. Rasa, I do understand that Swann did what 90% of economists said was the right thing and spent some money keeping employment going. I don’t think I need to go into the whole GFC.
    Swanny, like it or not was voted Treasurer of the year worldwide, and now is the first tine EVER that Australia has had a AAA credit rating from the 3 major rating agencies.
    On the other hand we have Abbott, Robb (fitting name), and Sloppy Joe, who have just been outed as dodgy in the extreme, and liars, on financial matters.
    Say what you like, Swan was upfront and honest about his actions…

  6. You do know Rasa that the Coalition were only going to spend two to four billion less than this government if they were in power during the GFC.

    It means they would also have blown Hammock Costello’s lucky surplus, but worse, they were stipulating the same GFC stimulus measures that the US and several European countries implemented. We all know how well those measures worked, not.

    Then there’s the small problem of Abbott’s $70 billion plus in unfunded promises that the Liberals themselves have stated they need to find. And that’s a growing number as Abbott continues to economically brain fart without consulting his Party.

    As to the Liberals fixing Labor’s stuff ups I think you will find that history shows it’s mostly the other way round. There is no greater example than Hawke taking five years to fix the absolute mess left to him by Howard as Treasurer.

    And let us not forget Howard’s words on the eve of his first budget. “I was left a better economy by half than I thought possible.”

    Howard was left a vastly improving economy that was at the start of the greatest sustained global economic boom ever. A sustained economic boom that Howard and Costello mostly wasted.

  7. It is a bit silly how these idiots thought that they would get away with it

    Well, quite simple really. It’s not surprising that another story was run front page by ltdnews about another imminent Rudd challenge. Anything to get the attention away from a major, morally bankrupt, failure from the opposition.

    Actually, I still haven’t even seen a small article on this in any ltdnews rag.

    Mind you, I don’t look closely at them any more. I know what they say before I glance at them these days

    And the saddest thing about our entire political debate, Gillard is the one the media hung the ‘liar’ tag on. Go figure.

  8. Well it’s a comparatively small problem at the moment because he still has two years of non-consultative economic brain farts to let loose.

  9. True ME

    And he actually has to win an election. Even with a cheering msm, major fails like this repeating too often will make it very difficult.

  10. Tom you are absolutely spot on re the media on this issue.
    If the shoe was on the other foot it would be all over the commercial news stations and headlins in all the News Ltd press.
    At least it got mentioned on Insiders on Sunday

  11. Rasa, you’re just regurgitating nonsense. It’s conventional nonsense, but nonsense nevertheless.

    You make the very common mistake of those who know little of economics of assuming that the government budget is no different from a household.

    Costello’s surpluses never actually existed, as in a pile of banknotes in a locked box in the bowels of the Treasury building in Canberra, something for a rainy day.

    They were an accounting entry that simply showed the government spent less than it taxed.

    And as government spending is the source of all private financial assets, we were the poorer for it.

    If there hadn’t been an explosion in household debt to make up the shortfall, the Howard government couldn’t have got away with it.

  12. Here is the one minute video from the ABC’s Insiders program showing Hockey lying. Imagine how much coverage this would have got if it had been our Prime Minister.

    Hockey recently denied ever claiming he had the account audited so now he lies about lying this is just another to confound a bad look for the opposition.

  13. Thanks for the vid lunalava

    I’ve just done a google on this story, with numerous keyword variations, and I cannot get one hit to a ltdnews article on this story. Have they been so duplicitous as to not bother reporting this at all?

    Are they now such blatant barrackers for one side of politics?

    (I think we all know the answer to that)

  14. As usual with Wixxy a totally dishonest post

    Julia Gillard and the Labor Party had released all of the costings for their policies, and all had been audited and verified by Treasury. This was done well ahead of time.”

    Do people remember what Rudd and Swan did before the 2007 election?? Most of their policies were not submitted for costing until 3 days before the election. This meant they could not be costed.

  15. Sorry Neil, I missed the part where I mentioned Rudd….

    The dishonest ones in this instance Neil were fined $5000 each, and the ones who paid for their dishonesty sit on the opposition front bench.
    Nothing dishonest in my post…

  16. Neil, I will admit Rudd and Swan submitted their costings extremely late, and I think they were wrong to do so. But at least they were submitted to Treasury, and at least they did not lie to the public to try and whitewash over a massive black hole…

  17. Well you were saying how great Labor was getting their policies in on time for costing. However when in Opposition, Rudd/Swan did not submit most of them until 3 days before the election. This meant they could not be costed.

    So labor went to the 2007 election with a large number of their polices not costed by Treasury

    I bet you did not condemn this behaviour in 2007

  18. As usual with Wixxy a totally dishonest post

    Do people remember what Rudd and Swan did before the 2007 election?? Most of their policies were not submitted for costing until 3 days before the election. This meant they could not be costed.

    As usually with Neil a totally meaningless comment.

  19. Neil, I think my last comment did condemn them actually. I wasn’t blogging back then however…

    I am a Labor supporter, however I have done several posts, particularly on Asylum Seeker Policy that goes against Labor Policy. I do criticise if it is warranted in my view.
    However, I believe this action from Robb, Hockey, and Abbott sets a new precedent, they should be made an aexample of so nobody tries it again, from either side.

  20. I first read of HWK Horwath’s auditors being fined last Thursday on Peter Martin’s blog.

    Then nothing, anywhere. Silence.

    The only paper that covered the story (that I could find) was, oddly, The West Australian, a couple of days later. Is that a Murdoch rag ? It’s very Tory.

    But as it was the Perth office that did the “audit”, I guess they had no choice.

  21. “Quick look over there at Labor.”

    Nothings surer to get Neil to come here to raise straw men, look at Labor and go over the same old ground yet again than to point out genuine flaws in the Liberals, but especially of his greatest hero Howard.

    Labor were wrong at the time and I think many of pointed that out, but Neil always overlooks when we criticise Labor or a Labor politician, yet he can never find fault in anything the Liberals do, even when they blatantly deceive and lie, as in this case with their costings.

    And I guess Neil is more than happy that Hockey is attempting to have the legislation his party bought in as being absolutely necessary to the integrity and honesty of political parties overturned, to be replaced by costings done in secret by private accountants and that the figures given to them will not be made public.

    And he calls the ALP dishonest.

  22. My overall opinion of the Abbottocracy’s economics is that they simply plan to push the Lucky Country’s luck as far as they can. Something will turn up, they will get the money from somewhere. That & sweeping reductions in services.
    Bugger tomorrow, it never comes.

  23. However, I believe this action from Robb, Hockey, and Abbott sets a new precedent,

    Well we will never know what would have happened if there wasn’t that leak. If everybody recalls they started submitting their polices to Treasury and some of the results were leaked and the police were called in. Robb was certain it was Swan. So they went to the accounting firm.

    Perhaps they should have kept submitting and so what if more results were leaked. I do not think it would have made much of a difference.

  24. Their belief is in trickle down economics and it’s being fed to them by the wealthy and big business.

    Give us massive tax breaks, lots of upper class welfare handouts and huge subsidies whilst bringing in WorkChoices MkII and we’ll give you a good economy by employing lots of people on lousy wages with no conditions. We’ll also bring in lots of cheap overseas workers but the trade off is productivity and more money into the economy as we’ll become much richer than we already are but will spend that wealth back into the Australian economy.

    This doesn’t work and has never worked, with the US being a prime example of how wrong and damaging this economic strategy is.

    But it’s exactly what Abbott and the Liberals want to pursue if in government and it was their stated economic strategy from opposition during the GFC.

  25. Re Even you Wixxie would make a better treasurer than Swan There you are wixxy, your fortune is made! Especially given that Swan was named the World’s Best Treasurer.

  26. Tones & Joe seemed to grab that leak with both hands. The police were called in, as I recollect, & they ‘aint been banging on any Labor doors over it. I remember Howard mouthing “Charter of Budget Honesty” in a positively reverent tone of voice, now to be ignored because it doesn’t suit them.

  27. Neil what have the leaks got to do with the dishonesty in the Liberals costings?

    Are you saying that because they thought the Treasury would leak what turns out to be their deliberately bogus figures they went to a private firm who has been fined for releasing their known to be bogus figures?

    No matter which way you look at it the Liberals were deliberately attempting to be dishonest, and even worse doing so under a policy of honesty they bought in to stop this type of dishonesty.

    Sorry, you can twist this anyway you like and raise the leaks over and over again as you have been it still does not deflect from the fact the Liberals were attempting to deliberately deceive on their budget costings, and if they do this type of thing now it is a clear indication that they will be dishonest and deceptive when in government, thus don’t deserve to be in government.

  28. The police were called in, as I recollect, & they ‘aint been banging on any Labor doors over it.”

    Apparently Wayne Swan has the right to leak those results. If the PS leaked it would be a Federal offense and the leaker could be charged. Not so for Swan however.

    But they should have kept submitting their polices. So what if more results were leaked. I guess they think Swan has politicsed Treasury so much they just lost total trust in Swan. But what could Swan do?? Even if he leaked all the results I do not think it would have made much of a difference.

  29. Migs and Min

    We had over a week of Nil BSing. on anotherthread, about the “leak” and the back and forth about who benefited. Can I suggest every time Nil uses that argument we repost lunalava’s post of the HOCKEY LIE. in a blatant but inspiring attempt to derail the derailer

  30. Yes Sue. Neil is attempting to deflect away from Hockey’s revealed lie and onto the Treasury leak to make that the topic. It is something he does every time revelations of the Liberal’s dishonesty is discussed.

    As I said in the thread on Abbott he attempted to derail using the same arguments he has for years, just go back to the topic, in this case of Hockey’s lie on lie on lie and the Liberals open dishonesty and deceptions.

  31. “We had over a week of Nil BSing. on anotherthread, about the “leak”

    Yes but BSA Bob mentioned that labor was not charged over it. Even though it was repeated many times it needs to be repeated again for BSA Bob . Labor cannot be charged for leaking since Swan has the right to leak.

  32. A word of praise for the Independents Windsor, Oakshott and Katter who insisted the Coalition submit their costings to Treasury. And basically told the Lying Liberals to stuff off when they suggested Howarth accountants explain the “audited accounts'” to them.

  33. Neil of Sydney – instead of complaining about the past (which will only make you bitter and twisted), how about asking LNP HQ to give us some idea of where Abbott will get his $70BILLION from.

    How you can claim to be good at anything when you’re $70BILLION down the tubes escapes me. By the way the proof for this statement is the fine handed out to the two Hovarth employees in Perth – which brings us back nicely to the point of this thread; the non reporting of this seemingly little error by the intrepid jounrnalists of Nonews.

  34. Neil time to man up are you prepared to call Hockey a LIAR. Run the clip that was on Insiders, it is Hockey in his own words lying to the electorate.
    Can you actually agree that he lied or are you going to cut and run just like Abbott does when the going gets tough or the truth outs.
    But I reckon you will just continue the whine about the leak as a way of deflecting your utter disappointment.

  35. A word of praise for the Independents Windsor, Oakshott and Katter who insisted the Coalition submit their costings to Treasury.

    Yes and the bottom line according to Treasury was that the Coalition polices gave a better budget bottom line. It just was not as good as they claimed. It was still superior to Labors

    We found out the other day why Treasury did not find any problem with the ALP costings. This was because Treasury costed the ALP policies before submission so of course they would be O.K.

  36. Just a point, how can something be construed as ‘a leak’ when the Feds’ investigation revealed that the person who released the information had the authority to do so.

  37. Neil
    Nice try.
    I will bite to the extent that I thought at the time Joe & Tones should’ve kept releasing their policies for costing. It was a bad look, which hopefully returns us to the original topic. Perhaps Tracey Grimshaw should’ve chased them down the street, calling out “Joe! Tony!, What’ve you got to hide?”

  38. “We found out the other day why Treasury did not find any problem with the ALP costings. This was because Treasury costed the ALP policies before submission so of course they would be O.K.”

    Neil, you are either joking or attempting to pull our leg.

    It was always known that Treasury would vet the propositions

    That was the scheme that Mr. Costello put in place.

    If you were truly unaware of this, I suggest you cease making comments until you educate yourself as to what occurred.

    I also suggest that you also keep in mind, the Opposition had a chance to correct holes in Mr. Costello’s scheme, but once again said no.

    Whatever the situation was, it does not change the fact that the Opposition requested an audit LIKE report. A bit of paper that was misleasing and dressed up to represent an audit.

    The Opposition then set out to con the public with a lie. It was not an audited report. Never was and never will be. It was figures given to the accountants, which they were asked to say added up.

    The figures were to be taken on face value. No inkling of where they came from was needed.

    What is more important, they plan to ignore budget honesty guidelines at the next electiion.

    The Opposition has no intention of telling you or anyone else where their cuts will be made.
    Why would this be so.

  39. Re wixxy and At a Tribunal of The Institute Of Chartered Accountants, fines were handed down of $5000 each to the two accountants involved, as their work failed to state that the procedures used did not constitute an audit, or even a review.

    The first thing that came to mind is that $5000 is hardly a penalty at all, and certainly nothing resembling a deterrent for any high profile accountancy firm to avoid similar in the future.

    One item that is often overlooked is WHK Howarth’s complicity in this. Where were WHK Howarth’s when Joe Hockey was misrepresenting their work as a genuine audit.

    Why weren’t Howarth’s executives straight on the tellie demanding to know why the Liberals were misrepresenting their work. Oh whoops, that’s right they omitted that ‘small snippet’ of information didn’t they – the fact that it wasn’t an audit.

    I wonder how much Howarth’s received by way of ‘payment’.

  40. Neil, you are either joking or attempting to pull our leg.”

    No. I wish I had kept the link. I think it was an article AnthonyG gave.

    Just like the Coalition used that accounting form to cost their policies the ALP polices were costed by Treasury before handing to Treasury for costing.

    Someone costed the ALP polices before they were handed to treasury and guess what??. Treasury did the costing before and after they were handed the policies. No wonder not many mistakes were found

    That is the advantage of being in govt

  41. It is true that the sitting Government have more access to Treasury than the opposition, although, to say that the Government had got Treasury to cost them before submission is, well, to use the vernacular, being dishonest.

    It must also be remembered that the opposition were offered full access to Treasury to test their assumptions through, something that I am unaware of being done previously. They declined that offer. They then proceeded TO LIE to the Australian public

  42. But Costello biased the rules against the opposition of the day, meaning they have proved unworkable.

    ROFL

    Hoisted by their own petard

  43. Yeah as Neil goes around in circles to avoid it and as much as possible do a “look at Labor” he still hasn’t said anything about Hockey lying on a lie about a lie and that the Coalition attempted but failed to deceive the Australian people.

    Were or were not the accountants who were hired by the Coalition to make public deliberately deceptive figures found guilty of malpractice in publishing those figures or weren’t they?

    If they were found guilty then it means Hockey lied, and it means he lied to cover up that lie.

    It means the Liberals set out to deliberately deceive the Australian public and the only reason they didn’t use the Treasury was because they knew their figures were shonky and used an accounting firm they knew would be unethical.

    This has nothing to do with leaks, or Treasury or what Labor did in the past but everything to do with a political party that is willing to go to great lengths to deceive and lie.

  44. lunanava

    Nil is doing the usual he is incapable of saying “I agree Hockey lied to the electorate, you people are right and I have to agree with you people. The proof is in the clip that lunanlava supplied.”

  45. Does WHK Horwath tell third parties they should seek independent advice on reports?
    http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/08/27/does-whk-horwath-tell-third-parties-they-should-seek-independent-advice-on-reports/

    Tony Abbott until this morning refused to provide the Coalition’s election commitments to Treasury for independent costing, despite the three independents calling for a Treasury assessment of the costs and savings each side took to the election. Tony Abbott until this morning refused to provide the Coalition’s election commitments to Treasury for independent costing, despite the three independents calling for a Treasury assessment of the costs and savings each side took to the election. Abbott initially said this was because the Public Service “couldn’t understand” the Coalition’s policies, but has since said it was because there was a leaker in Treasury. The Coalition benefited from extensive leaking by a Treasury official prior to the Godwin Grech affair blowing up in 2009.

    but has since said it was because there was a leaker in Treasury. The Coalition benefited from extensive leaking by a Treasury official prior to the Godwin Grech affair blowing up in 2009.

    Mmm,
    Abbott initially said this was because the Public Service “couldn’t understand” the Coalition’s policies, but has since said it was because there was a leaker in Treasury. The Coalition benefited from extensive leaking by a Treasury official prior to the Godwin Grech affair blowing up in 2009.

  46. Pip, which of course is one of the prime reasons why the Independents sided with Gillard and Labor instead of Tony Abbott’s Liberals.

  47. Min there was a tweet about the GOP debaters which went like this…and applies to the Libs here IMO.

    They should be on ‘Are you smarter than a fith grader’….

  48. Sorry Pip, perhaps I should have been more concise

    Still no hits from Google (or Bing) on the story about hockey lying.

    Maybe my skills in googleology are lacking?

  49. Crowe Horwath considers ICA challenge
    http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/wa/12241611/crowe-horwath-considers-ica-challenge/

    An Institute of Chartered Accountants tribunal last week upheld on appeal that Mr Kidd and Perth-based colleague Cyrus Patell’s one-page report on Liberal-National policy costings failed to state that the “procedures performed do not constitute either an audit or a review”.

    Mr Kidd said it was of “particular concern that the ICA came to their decision without reviewing any work papers or interviewing the client”.

    There was an earlier report that the Tribunal had some difficulty:-
    http://www.petermartin.com.au/2011/05/coalitions-auditors-still-under.html

    Mr Meyer was unable to say how much longer the investigation might take saying such things depended on “the complexity, the availability of material, the availability of witnesses, the availability of tribunal members, a whole range of factors”.

  50. Tom R, you’re on the right track, nothing, zip in the msm.

    My link showed up in email alert for ‘hockey costings audit’…very slim pickings !
    Nothing about the Hockey lie !

  51. I should clarify even more

    No hits from tldnews on the hockey thing

    the other outlets have published on it, but I cannot find it still in any ltdnews outlet.

  52. Maybe ltd news is too embarrassed to report on it. This absolute debacle has been performed by their party of choice. If they had any credibility they’d expect a leadership challenge.

    Rudd just has to look sideways at Gillard and what to they report? A leadership challenge, no less.

  53. Augustus

    Because Loughnane said that it was not an audit and his wife Credlin works for Abbott, Abbott backing Hockey means is also a LIAR.
    lunalava can you find and post a clip of Abbott backing Liar Hockey

  54. Is this an accurate overview of the situation? First of all came the accusation of ‘leaked’ documents with Hockey blaming Swan for the leak. A subsequent Federal Police investigation revealed that whoever leaked the documents had the authority to do so.

    However and meanwhile, Hockey uses the reason/excuse of leaked documents who use Howarths, accountants of Perth to do the Liberal Party costings which Hockey falsely claimed were ‘audits’.

    Howarths have now been fined for omitting the fact that their assessment was not an audit.

    I might have the sequence wrong…is this it? If so, something does not smell very sweet….

  55. This is more than allegations of lying.

    It is about Mr. Abbott and Co deliberately creating a false document to convey false and misleading information to the public.

    If one done that in business, what would it be called.

    As for the alleged leak, it did not appear to have occurred. The allegations of a leak was a ruse for Mr. Abbott ti use as an excuse not to have his budget analysed.

    The last comment I would like to ask, why was there any need for secrecy about the assessment. Surely the public had a right to know.

  56. Surely the public had a right to know.

    Cu, it is evident that the media decides what the public has a right to know about. If the story is true, then it’s not newsworthy.

    If it is total crap, then they’ll ram it down our throats until we believe it.

  57. The only bit left out Min is that the Liarbels went about engaging Howarth’s in June, way before the “leak” occurred but possibly when hatched.

  58. Migs, so very true..if it’s hot juicy gossip it could easily be run ad infinitum, even earning itself several reruns weeks nay unto months later, but genuine news which the Australian public needs and deserves to know..all but glossed over.

  59. Maybe that is what they want. Have you noticed, it is being talked about, on many sites I would say.

  60. Just a point, how can something be construed as ‘a leak’ when the Feds’ investigation revealed that the person who released the information had the authority to do so.

    Min, a leak is still a leak, whether it’s authorised or not. Both sides of politics “leak” all the time, often to test out reaction to a policy they’re considering…

    If, for example, Joe Hockey leaked the Treasury analysis of their policies so that they had an excuse not to submit any more costings to treasury, it’s still a leak even though he’s authorised to release the information 😛

  61. There could be a lot of anger over in Liberal world as it is now emerging that Loughnane,and Credlin have shielded Abbott from the “audit ” lie.From Augustus’ link we know Loughnane knew it wasn’t and audit. From this link we know that Abbott was conveniently not around when Hockey and Robb announced the Coalition’s audited costings

    “Mr Hockey has said the audit has been one of the most comprehensive of any Opposition in Australian political history.
    Mr Robb has said WHK Horwarth’s costings had been “far more exhaustive” than Treasury could provide anyway. “This is an accounting firm that lives and dies by the independence of the work

    Mr Abbott was not with Mr Hockey and Mr Robb announcing the numbers. He is campaigning in Queensland instead. Mr Abbott has said it shows the strength of his team: “I can rely on these guys to release these costings”.

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/features/federal-election/coalition-policies-would-double-surplus/story-e6frfllr-1225906946980#ixzz1fdAqaSrn

    So Abbott endorsed the Lies of Hockey and Robb but saved his own political skin by not standing side by side with his shadow treasurer and shadow finance ministers. So Abbott has effectively stabbed jn the back both Hockey and Robb.

  62. I wonder if Hockey and Robb knew they were being dropped in the sh*t. I wonder if they knew what Loughnane and Credlin knew, if they did then they are complicit in the lie that is the Abbott campaign.

  63. Sue @ 3.37pm, I don’t think the Libs expected a hung Parliament, thus they wouldn’t be caught out in their lies….they landed on their a….
    Not to worry, Rupe’s minions are on the job !

  64. Google must be broken

    I still cannot find a link to this revelation about a deliberate lie to the Australian people in any ltdnews site.

    There are claims that Labor cannot sell a message.

    Well, the message is pretty clear from Pips link. The only way they can get the message out, is to either trust the media to report on what is happening, or put out their own ads.

    Media releases themselves are ignored by the media.

  65. Media releases – as we know them – will soon be a thing of the past, Tom R. Western governments will eventually provide all releases via Twitter and other social media vehicles.

    As incredible as it sounds, that’s a fact.

  66. It is now 5 hours and Nil has not admitted Hockey is a Liar.

    This must be the Liarbel party line, ignore and the story will die.

    But guess what until the Liarbels admit the Lie, the story is alive.

  67. I reckon the Liberal party spin doctors are working on the story that if Hockey lied about lying, he must be telling the truth, this might run ok over at channel Ten

  68. Western governments will eventually provide all releases via Twitter

    Well, they should be doing that now by hte looks of things

    (says the person without a twit account)

  69. Tom R,
    I’m with you. I very much doubt that anything that I have to say could be expressed adequately in 140 characters or less. I always hated those word count things when at Uni, how to reduce it to 5,000 words.

  70. Perth accountants did a good job: Robb
    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8383659

    Opposition finance spokesman andrew Robb is standing by the accountants who have been have been fined for breaching professional standards in costing the coalition’s 2010 election policies, saying they did as good a job as Treasury would have done.

    A tribunal of the Institute of Chartered Accountants fined two Perth-based accountants from WHK Horwath $5000 each this week because their costings weren’t backed up by statements.

    Quizzed on the matter on Friday, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said: “That’s a matter for the individuals concerned and the relevant professional body”.

    He still stood by the costings.

  71. Anthony G, it really is a case of the emperor hopping from one photo op to another, unaware that he’s not wearing any clothes.

    They’ve been allowed to get away with no scrutiny for so long that they continue to tell whoppers in the belief that the biggest news outlet in the country won’t write about it. Quite right.

    Where is the ABC in this scenario ?

  72. Pip
    Don’t look to the ABC’s Drum, they were quite interested in discussing the Rudd challenge,union dominance,gay marriage, uranium sales, nauru.
    The Liberal was very good at coming back to the usual liberal line no mater the question.
    eg. What would the people in the Sydney electorate you represented think about gay mariage- Ans, Labor will definitely lose votes in Qld
    What do you think of uranium sales Ans well sending refugees to Malaysia is wrong Also by looking at Rudd you can definitely see that he is going to challenge.

    The Drum ended on talking about the USA candidates.

    And by the way 6 hours since Neil was challenged to fess up and agree with you people about the Liar Hockey.

  73. Watching Abbott explain his drop in popularity, it seems that when you spend so much time telling everyone what a really bad Government this is, sometimes you get caught in the backwash.
    This has lots in common with their defence of their costings, just keep going. Mind you, it’s OK to discard a few casualties on the road, people who “aren’t your problem” anymore.

  74. BSA Bob,
    I was listening to Abbott this morning saying that his job is two-fold, to hold the government to account and to provide alternative superior policies. That this is all going to happen next year. Promises, promises.

  75. Migs, plus Abbott has developed the ‘Howard eyes’..you know, the ones where the eyes dart to and fro where one know that Howard was telling a porkie, which was almost always.

    I don’t know that Abbott is on, but whatever it is I’m not hugely certain that it is legal..at least not in such excessive doses.

  76. And by the way 6 hours since Neil was challenged to fess up and agree with you people about the Liar Hockey.

    How long has it been since Neil was challenged to fess up and agree with you people about the Liar Hockey now Sue? :mrgreen:

  77. Bacchus
    anybody would think that I am counting,……… 10 hours by the way
    I wonder if there is a conference in London, that had to be attended.

  78. 😯 Really Sue? It has been 10 hours since Neil was challenged to fess up and agree with you people about the Liar Hockey? Unbelievable 😆 Where is Neil?? 😉

  79. BSA Bob @10.16am, that’s not saying much. My whippet could run rungs around poor old Sloppy! And he’d make a better fist of Treasurer. lol

    ME, my money’s on Robb as the “leaker”. The”leak” was a load of bullshit invented by the Liars Party to avoid scrutiny of their dodgy policy “costings”. Neil can say what he likes but that’s the nub of the issue.

    And wot Sue said at 10.41am.

    2353 @1047am, Liealot will get the money from the same place he gets all his other crap, from his @rse! (Pun intended)

    I wouldn’t suggest anyone should hold their breath for Rupert’s Rag to report any wrongdoing by that fine firm of Liars Party accountants.

    Sue @3.09pm, you’ve got to pity poor old Neil. He’s like a Dalek who can’t remember who to exterminate! Spinning in ever-decreasing circles up his fundamental orifice.

    It may not be Lliars party policy, but I reckon Neil thinks that if he makes himself very small, say like a baby rodent, and keeps very still, it will all go away and he won’t have to admit that Sloppy is a BIG FAT LIAR!

    Anthony G, it really is a case of the emperor hopping from one photo op to another, unaware that he’s not wearing any clothes.

    And he still can’t understand why everyone is pointing and laughing at a certain part of his anatomy!

  80. Enjoyed reading this, which put a lot of things swirling about in my pea-soup brain into a consistnt and enjoyable read 🙂

    One thing I was reminded of, for some reason, was the election at which Howard first got into power. Does anyone else recall Cheryl Kernot, then still leader of the Democrats, announcing that the ALP (Gareth I guess) had told her they had identified 10 or 20 major non-taxpayers and planned to ensure these were taxed, and that the tax raised that way would mean no news taxes for anyone else and yet plenty of new money?

    It didn’t get much credence at the time, I suspect many thought it was just a last desperate throw, but I wonder now if she/they meant miners such as Forrest? And no doubt others who are smart enough to keep a low profile as they cadge off the public purse. Whoever it was, the Howard government never bothered to follow it up …

    Anyway, yes, they are all just a few steps ahead of Today Tonight’s camera wirelding champions, hahaha!

  81. Hi Christine, yes that Kernot comment does sound familiar. It might be worth a little time spent on google 🙂 Miners makes sense.
    What a good memory you have !

  82. Watching Andrew Robb and Joe Hockey and their role in Audit-gate, I was reminded of the gravestone inscription:

    There was a young man from Hyde
    Who fell down a midden and died
    His unfortunate brother fell down another
    And now they’re interred side by side

    So Joe and Andrew’s political aspirations are interred side by side.

    (in homage to Patricawa)

  83. lunalava

    Nil has a hide , does he have a brother

    It has been 19 hours and Nil has still not fessed up and agreed with you people that Joe hockey is a LIAR.

  84. When a political reporter, Laura Tingle, wins a Walkley award for revealing the truth on the issue of the Coalition cooking the fiscal books and Hockey’s lie on lie, both lies repeated several times and a third lie on those lie added, then there must be some truth in the claims of Coalition malfeasance.

  85. Mobius, the suggestion has to be that Tingle (what a great name :)) is completely accurate in her factual information, which is in comparison to that ‘great’ news.com journalist the Blot.

  86. The Fairfax group should celebrate Laura Tingle’s Walkley award by printing the article in every publication across Australia.

    http://www.walkleys.com/files/media/tingleliarsandclunkheads.pdf

    “One is that they are liars, the other is that they are clunkheads.
    is that they are clunkheads. Actually, there is a third they are liars and clunkheads. But whatever the combination they are not fit to govern.

    The picture that emerges from the econocrats’ report is that the opposition very purposely created a very dodgy set of numbers which were never expected to withstand any scrutiny and would require the intervention of the Australian Securities and Investments Commission if it was a company.”

  87. Sue, this is just an impression but at the time I was thinking that as per Tingle, the numbers “were never expected to withstand any scrutiny”, because of course the Liberals had concluded that they were going to win the election. After forming government any shortfalls could have quickly been blamed on the former Labor government.

  88. Google isstill broken in respect to this story and murdochs rags.

    Which is a shame, as the public, even those rusted ons who get their ideologies from a paper that would stoop so low as to hack into peoples phones, have the right to know that these costings are not what the libs claim them to be, that, in fact, the libs lied to them at the last election, and are planning to do it at the next one.

    Joe Hockey has confirmed that he will hide his policy costings from public scrutiny at the next election, telling The Sydney Morning Herald today that he will use private sector accountants to cost his policies.

    Mr Hockey has also indicated he may use the Parliamentary Budget Office to cost his policies in secret, despite the Opposition voting against and publicly criticising the PBO over the past month.

    Mr Hockey has said he might use the PBO outside of the election period when costings are confidential, but will dodge any public costings by the PBO during the election period – when he has to be open and transparent with the Australian people.

    http://www.alp.org.au/blogs/alp-blog/september-2011/hockey-confirms-he-will-hide-policy-costings/

    Yes, I know I sound like a broken record, but, when our media actively take sides and enable this kind of manipulation of the public record, then yes, they are a threat to our democracy.

  89. Min
    Exactly and as Tingle says “But what is more extraordinary is that now, having been caught out, Tony Abbott, Joe Hockey and Andrew Robb are continuing to try to bluff their way through..”

    3 LIARS. the 3 senior OPPOSITION leaders LIE to the Australian public and yet it is not banner headlines day after day after day. And Abbott is not being challenged daily on this issue.
    As I said Loughnane and Credlin arranged for Abbott not to be standing next to Hockey and Robb when they launched these lies on the electorate.
    Abbott is either their puppet or just a coward.

  90. Tom R
    The utter betrayal of the Murdoch press and its reporting on issues to the Australian electorate has to be shouted. If the internet screams then possibly someone in TV news may hear and run the story.

    And as for broken records:
    It has been 20 hours and still no Nil fessing up to you people that Hockey is a Liar.
    It may be that Nil is preparing himself and will actually say, Hockey is a LIAR but you people should also say Abbott and Robb are LIARS too.

  91. Mr Denmore nails it again

    What is it going to take the Australian population to wake up to this con job? When are people going to realise that a plutocrat, US-based billionaire – playing his role as the common man railing against the ‘elites’ – is wilfuly distorting reality so as to eat their lunch and those of their children?

    http://thefailedestate.blogspot.com/

  92. Tom R
    yesterday an essential poll was published. on the question

    And which party would you trust most to handle the following issues?

    Management of the economy 27% 45% 2% 25%
    Labor Lib Gr Don’t know

    Imagine the Essential poll result if the msm ran the story on Hockey, Abbott, Robb and the big fat Lie.

  93. Sue,
    Brainwashed by the media continuously allowing Abbott to bleat on about a Big New Tax while avoiding major scrutiny of the implications of their policies. Or is that the promise to withdraw all of Labor’s policies including the NBN. I wonder what the cost of cancelling that one would be.

  94. “I wonder what the cost of cancelling that one would be.”

    That’s factored into the $70+ billion the Coalition now need to find before they even look at a budget, as is their rescinding of the MRT and just about every other reform or policy this government has introduced.

    The stupid thing on the part of the Coalition opposition if they win government is that the massive time and cost or dismantling all these Labor government reforms would have been greatly alleviated if they had actually spent a little effort in bringing up alternate policies and then negotiating for amendments or compromises. Instead Abbott, the ultimate populist (remember Rudd being canned for being that), chose the lazy and easy way of just opposing everything that had the effect of changing nothing and now must bear the responsibility of finding $70+ billion before he even starts looking at spending promises in an election campaign.

    As has been pointed out in several public fora, Abbott’s and the hard right of the opposition, along with their vested interest wealthy supporters aided and abetted by a morally corrupt right wing MSM, only ever had a short term tactical plan in place to oust the Labor government within 12 months, pinning everything they had onto that including a nasty and mostly dishonest media campaign denigrating the government at every turn whilst giving Abbott unfettered reign to do and say as he was told to by them.

    Their tactic fell to pieces however and not just because Gillard had remained calm, stoic and in command throughout, but also because Abbott could not stick to the instructions and tended to either brain fart or brain freeze.

    The talk from the rabid right and from Abbott is that in 2012 they are going to come out with less negativity and with actual lucid policy and my bet is that they will have Abbott doing intensive acting lessons throughout the break making sure he religiously sticks to the instructions given to him.

  95. That’s it, move along, nothing to see here, ‘don’t you worry about that’.

    Here, chook, chook chook!

    Sue @7.12am, you people should know that you are all Labor stooges and anyway (look over there, no there, no there, just look anywhere else, ffs!) that despite the slight arithmetical error the untrustworthy bastards Labor stooges at Treasury said ourmy Hockey had a better bottom line. Keep looking over here!!!!

  96. Mobius, Malcolm Turnbull’s suggestion is that this is about the antagonism between Rudd and Gillard, but none of the hot air floating around today means much compared to the fact that the Murdoch/News of the World phone hacking story hit the headlines in June.

    Combined with the blatant support for the Coalition by News Ltd, and the equally blatant campaign to oust a legitimate government, any Minister worth his salt would have done exactly the same thing, Labor or Liberal.

    The snub to Murdoch is long overdue.

    Abbott, sticking religiously to the instructions given to him….I’d like to see that !
    His middle name is brainfart. 😀

  97. Turnbull is certainly copping it from the right wing trolls on the mainstream blogs..it’s so predictable isn’t it. Turnbull belongs in the Labor Party, only they spell it Labour 🙄

  98. lunalava, great rhyme! But my inner schoolmarm itches to correct your spelling. Surely the last line reads

    And now they’re in turd side by side!

  99. Tom R @ 9.11am, Mr. Denmore also nailed the silence on the costings ‘audit’.

    And now, they’re doing it again. Peter Martin, one of the few real economic journalists out there, has revealed the dodgy, behind-the-bike-sheds arithmetic on which the Coalition costed its policy promises ahead of the federal election last year. Mind you, we knew this was the case. In fact, Laura Tingle, another rare, real journalist recently won a Walkley for speaking the truth on the issue. Nobody listened.

  100. I think you people are going overboard about this topic. Did Joe lie?? It all depends what he knew. If you use accountants you expect to get an audit.

    Joe most probably thought the books were audited and said so. He most probably did not know it was not an audit in the traditional sense. I am not sure what Joe’s training is in but I do not think he was an accountant. If he was a trained accountant I would say he was very loose with the truth and most probably lied.

    He most probably did not know what he was talking about and was therefore guilty of some incompetence. He said the policies were audited because that is what he thought had happened.

  101. OK everyone please note

    It has been 24 hours since Nil was challenged to fess up and admit that Joe Hockey is a Liar and that you people are right.

  102. Neil, a person wants to be Australia’s Treasurer doesn’t know what an audit looks like nor the precise rules pertaining to what constitutes an audit..I do hope that Hockey gets around to do some swatting up over the Xmas break..

  103. Well I have been doing some reading. It could never be an audit. You cannot audit forward estimates. You can only audit things that happen in the past.

    I suspect he was using the word in a generic sense that the policies and numbers had been looked at.

    The accountants were fined not because the numbers were wrong but because they did not put this statement at the end

    “procedures performed do not constitute either an audit or a review”.

    If you want to be strict you could say that Joe was sloppy with the word audit but that is about it. What word should he have used???

  104. I AGREE! with nil

    It is perhaps possible that hockey is not a liar.

    Of course, the only other excuse is PIG IGNORANCE

    either way, not a viable option to replace “The Worlds Greatest Treasurer”

    What is your choice nil? Liar or ignoramus?

  105. Those defending Howard’s long string of lies were caught in the same dilemma Tom. If they averred he wasn’t lying and it was an honest mistake, or he said it out of ignorance, then they had to contend with the fact they were saying Howard was an incompetent, uninformed and kept in the dark Prime Minister, making him unfit for that position.

  106. But yes Tom, Neil has confirmed that Hockey is completely unqualified in any way to have anything to do with the finances of this country, just as he was completely unqualified for the IR portfolio and totally screwed that up.

  107. “Auditing and certifying in law” Joe words
    Joe’s bio Liberal Home Page
    “He attended the University of Sydney where he completed degrees in Arts and Law.
    After university Joe worked as a finance and banking lawyer.”

    You think he should know what an audit and certifying in law means, particularly if he wants to be the treasurer of the country.
    Or Joe Hockey is a Liar, and he lied to the Australian electorate.

    So “sloppy” Joe (thanks for that Nil ) is incompetent as well as a LIAR.

  108. Hockey is a lawyer by training and most probably thought an audit was occurring. You have to say he was ignorant because after a little bit of reading even I worked out you cannot audit forward estimates.

    But I am sure he had no idea of the difference between an audit and what the accounting firm was doing.

  109. He doesn’t know law either.

    “Certifying in law our numbers are accurate” Joe Hockey

    But rather than get into yet another descriptive argument, the case is simple.

    TONY ABBOTT , JOE HOCKEY, ANDREW ROBB deliberately LIED to the Australian electorate.
    And the reason those three are still in prominent positions in the Liberal party is because the MSM led by News Ltd have failed to hammer the Coalition on The LIES.

  110. What will ‘the rich’ make of this ?

    Swan tax shake-up targets super rich
    Peter Martin
    December 6, 2011

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/swan-tax-shakeup-targets-super-rich-20111205-1ofj9.html


    A WORKING group set up by the Treasurer, Wayne Swan, is planning a shake-up that would see most companies pay no corporate tax and a smaller number pay a much higher rate of “super tax” on profits clearly above the odds.

    If fully implemented the change would render the minerals resource rent tax redundant.

  111. I think this “story” is not in the news because there is nothing in it as much as you people would like it to be.

    And the accounting firm was fined not because of dodgy numbers but because they did not have an appropriate statement at the end.

  112. Neil re Hockey is a lawyer by training and most probably thought an audit was occurring

    Joe Hockey was a banking and finance lawyer and was Minister for Financial Services and Regulation 1998 to 2001. I think that this should, logically speaking give him just a smidgey bit of expertise in the field.

  113. Nil I understand you have a very short attention span so here is where Hockey says “audit” and “certified in law”

    So Hockey has no real knowledge of finance, accounting or law.

    Several times since this first lie, he has repeated the lie that he never said the words shown in the video.
    The guy is a fool and a liar and so are you if you continue to support him.

  114. Most people outside the accounting field would not know the legalities of an audit. If you step outside your field of expertise, most people are lost.

    But you would have thought someone may have told Hockey that an audit was not occurring. If so he is lying.

    But I think you want to make this into something its not. Hockey meant to say that a large accounting firm had analysed the numbers and everything was O.K.

  115. Most people outside an accounting firm would expect the shadow Treasurer to be not to Lie when talking directly to the electorate.

    Joe Hockey lied to the electorate.
    Andrew Robb lied to the electorate
    Abbott protected himself by not standing by his shadow ministers when they Lied to the electorate.

  116. You will have to ask Joe if he lied or not.

    But you cannot audit the future. You can only audit historical data. So it is impossible to conduct an audit on forward estimates. So it never was an audit.

    At the moment I believe that he did not know what he was talking about.

  117. A banking and finance lawyer doesn’t know what an audit is, then he/she would be in serious trouble. Hockey’s excuse for using the term ‘audit’ was that he wanted to put it in layman’s terms, as it was a term that everyone would understand.

    But you’re saying that Hockey didn’t understand it himself. (even though he is a banking and finance lawyer).

  118. “Hockey meant to say that a large accounting firm had analysed the numbers and everything was O.K.”

    But that is not the case. The firm did not analyse the numbers but just tabled them in spreadsheets as they were told to by the Coalition opposition. It’s why they were found guilty of malpractice as they didn’t review the figures given to them at all, they just tabled them and put their signatures to them to make it look good for the opposition, and they knew that’s what they were doing, as did the opposition in giving them the charter to do exactly that.

    Here was an opposition with a set of very dodgy numbers that turned out to be out by some $11 billion and they needed to hide that.

    They knew they couldn’t adhere to their own regulation and submit the $11 billion dodgy figures to Treasury or any other independent credible agency.

    They leak a Treasury report to give them an excuse to circumvent their own regulation.

    They use an accounting firm that “does” Liberal Party accounting.

    They and the firm get caught out cooking the books.

    Hockey lies about it. Then lies about it. Then lies about it. Then lies about the lie and finally lies about the lie on the lie.

    Is that a fairly accurate summation.

    It’s also worrying that the Liberals use and accounting firm that is willing to engage in shonky practices for their clients, or probably more accurately, this is why the Liberal Party uses them.

  119. It’s why they were found guilty of malpractice as they didn’t review the figures given to them at all,

    I do not think that is true.

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/business/a/-/wa/12241611/crowe-horwath-considers-ica-challenge/

    “”The ICA did not make any findings that the professional work we carried out was not of a high standard or the conclusions that we reached on that work were not soundly based,” Mr Kidd said yesterday.

    “Nor did they find that the report that we issued was false and misleading. It was just that technically we did not include several paragraphs to comply with a standard; that was the full extent of their determination.”

    They did not place “procedures performed do not constitute either an audit or a review” at the end of their “audit”. That is the only reason they were fined

  120. Well Hockey appears to be right when he said the “audit” was “certified in law”

    The accountants got fined for not following proper procedure

  121. Meta thanks for the reference
    iii
    . a statement that the responsibility for determining the adequacy or otherwise of the procedures agreed to be performed by the auditor is that of the recipient;

    The decisions of the Appeal Tribunal were:

    2 to note that in determining the sanctions to be imposed the Professional Conduct Tribunal considered the nature of the assignment and the public interest in the matter. Members have a professional obligation to understand the nature of an assignment that they are engaged to undertake, to determine which standards are applicable to that engagement, and to comply with those standards;

    So the accountants were responsible for the task, including appropriate standards, what was asked of the accountants “an audit of the numbers” and the numbers given to the accountants were the responsibilty of the coalition.

  122. Well Hockey appears to be right when he said the “audit” was “certified in law”

    😯

    I still think nil is going with the PIG IGNORANT defense

  123. “In fact, the document was the result of a carefully worded agreement between the accountants and the Coalition to produce work primarily ”not of an audit nature”.

    An audit would examine the assumptions used by the Coalition and whether they were reasonable.

    Mr Kidd and Mr Patell’s unpublished agreement with the Coalition explicitly required them not to inquire about “the reasonableness or otherwise of the assumptions used”.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/lib-policy-costings-exposed-by-ruling-20111130-1o773.html#ixzz1fisszgrf

    So Joe Hockey Lied, he used the word audit, the coalition and the accountants had agreed to produce a work not of an audit nature. Because the document did not say this is not audited, Joe gave himself room to use the infamous word. Hockey, Robb, Abbott were all in on the lie.

    They are LIARS.

  124. It’s the vibe, folks.
    The whole vibe of the coalition’s costings tactic was to get across that Treasury were a bunch of leakers & dills who weren’t schmick enough to understand the subtlety of the coalition’s numbers. That had forced them to get a private firm to do it. The private firm said that everything was O.K.
    It wasn’t.
    Hockey went along with it.
    The MSM let him.
    The private firm has since been found to have breached standards.

  125. And I must throw back at Neil and accusation he often makes of us, but in reverse.

    If this had been Labor that had done the exact same thing and made the same lie as Hockey and the rest of the Coalition, then Neil would have been harping on about how dishonest Labor are, and us lot being blind and dishonest for sticking up for them.

    Difference is Neil would still be bringing this up as a beating stick from now to eternity, long after everyone else has moved on. He would have added it to his small golf bag of beating sticks he constantly brings out whenever any malfeasance, malpractice, malformation, malevolence, malice, maliciousness, malignancy, malingering, malodorousness, malposition, or maltreatment is raised against the Liberals.

  126. Mobius re It’s also worrying that the Liberals use and accounting firm that is willing to engage in shonky practices for their clients, or probably more accurately, this is why the Liberal Party uses them.

    I thought at the time that Western Australia was a long way to travel to find an accountant….

  127. “Turnbull belongs in the Labor Party, only they spell it Labour ”

    Maybe they are suggesting that he move to the mother country or NZ.

  128. “They are LIARS.”

    Well you will have to ask Joe. But it is the accountants who are in trouble for not having the correct statements at the end of their “audit”

    You pay for a service and expect it to be performed correctly. It is not the Coalitions fault that the accountants statements did not end correctly.

    Joe could be just too stupid to know what he is talking about.

    I know I myself have some expertise in a particular field. But if I step outside that area I am totally lost.

  129. “It was just that technically we did not include several paragraphs to comply with a standard; that was the full extent of their determination.”

    Maybe there was a good reason for that. I suggest thy may have been in more trouble if the did.

    Mr. Hockey among others said more than once it was a audit. It was not.

    It was a document created to look like a audit report.

    The two accountants are now complaining that the clients were not interviewed. I believe they have a point.

    From where I am sitting, we have two employees set up to take the blame. I hope they do appeal.

    What is more worrying, if the Opposition had won the election, the matter would have stayed hidden.

    I believe it is because of the minority government that the truth has arisen.

    What is more worrying, that the Opposition does not intend to follow budget honesty guidelines at the next election.

    Neil, you can audited figures for the future. You take the figures, conpare them against assumptions and give the likely outcome. Yes, the assumptions and figures could be wrong.

  130. Neil. no one said the numbers where wrong.

    What is being said, is that the numbers mean nothing.

    The numbers are what Mr. Hockey and maybe Mr. Robb gave the accountants.

    The accountants then put them on a piece of paper and added them up.

    As far as we can tell, they were numbers taken out of thin air.

  131. “You pay for a service and expect it to be performed correctly. It is not the Coalitions fault that the accountants statements did not end correctly.”

    They got what they wanted, a bit of paper that looked like a audit.

    They lied about it being an audit.

    Mr. Hockey is a lawyer in the field. So is his wife. I am sure he knew the difference.

    I will go further and say that only someone in the know could come up with such a con document.

    Does the firm still do the Liberals business?

  132. Neil. you have never said a truer word.

    What is the field you have expertise in.

    By some of your comments here, it must be very narrow.

    Mr. Hockey is suppose to have expertise in the field we are talking about.

  133. Lib policy costings exposed by ruling

    The numbers were wrong Cu, and deliberately so, which is why the Coalition went to such great lengths to not having them independently audited or reviewed.

    It was the wrong numbers that revealed the $11 billion black hole. An $11 billion hole by the way that still exists.

  134. ME, I worded that wrongly. The accountants were never asked whether the numbers were wrong. They were asked to add some numbers up, that the Liberals gave them.

    I believe that the Liberals did not care whether they were right or not. They had other intentions after the election.

    The problem was, they could not tell the voters.

    A little like Mr. Griener, along with Max, the axe, being the real Premiers in NSW. The cuts we are seeing did not see the light of day before the election.

  135. “It was the wrong numbers that revealed the $11 billion black hole. An $11 billion hole by the way that still exists.”

    You wonder why I repeat myself. Treasury found that Coalition policies gave a better budget bottom line and would add between $0.86B to $4.5B to the budget bottom line. It just wasn’t the $11.5B that they claimed.

    And Treasury is not good at forecasts. Just 6 months ago they said the budget deficit would be $22.6B. It is now going to be $37B. Almost double. And you want me to trust Treasury.

  136. I wonder why we have to keep repeating ourselves about you repeating yourself.

    They fixed the figures. Plain and simple and if that were not the case they would have had no trouble whatsoever in allowing those figures to be independently audited.

    What part of double counting and counting what doesn’t exist do you not understand. A site about football understands it better than you can.

    “A Treasury examination of the Coalition’s 2010 costings found errors including double counting and questionable assumptions amounting to $11 billion.”

    Of course you are going to get a better bottom line if you fix the figures to give you a better bottom line.

    And I contend again, just to repeat myself, if this had been Labor we would never hear the end of you beating them up over it no matter if we attempted the same lame excuses you are with the Coalition trying on a fiscal subversion.

  137. “Of course you are going to get a better bottom line if you fix the figures to give you a better bottom line.”

    NOPE. When Treasury puts its interpretation of the Coalition policies they improved the budget by $0.86B to $4.5B. And they were better than Labors

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-09-01/treasury-finds-black-hole-in-coalition-costings/2245360

    “Before the election the Coalition said its promises would add about $11.5 billion to the budget bottom line over the next four years.

    But Treasury analysis given to Tony Windsor and his fellow independents Rob Oakeshott and Bob Katter shows the Coalition’s promises would only add between $860 million and $4.5 billion to the bottom line.”

  138. Now the Coalition have a huge problem in that their savings to be found column adds to $70 billion and growing every time Abbott opens his mouth and brain farts.

    And you want us to trust this mob who attempted to double account and falsely claim $11 billion in savings, no matter what distraction is attempted. That fact is inviolable, it’s there in the Coalition’s figures.

    So what lies and false accounting do they have to engage in to hide $70 billion or more?

    No wonder Hockey wants to do away with the policy of budget honesty his government bought in. But here is another case where Gillard has the better of them as her government is to introduce a policy to form a panel of independent experts who will cost a Party’s fiscal policies.

    Hockey sweats profusely at the best of time but watch it pour when this bill is introduced into parliament. He will will be beaming bright red as he attempts to shout it down.

  139. On a show of hands:

    Hockey LIED plus is an Ignorant Pig. The Ayes have it.

    Neil, as a consolation prize you may have your choice from Migs’ cellar (I’ll tell him about it later), middle shelf.

  140. “And you want us to trust this mob who attempted to double account and falsely claim $11 billion in savings, ”

    I would trust them and the accounting firm over Treasury.

    And Labor has only one reason why their costings agreed with Treasury.

    Being in govt they get Treasury to cost their numbers before they hand them back for costing. So they have to agree more or less.

    And Hockey is not expert in accounting. He has a law degree and would not be up on the legalities of an audit. Neither would Gillard who also has a law degree.

  141. About Joe

    He attended the University of Sydney where he completed degrees in Arts and Law.

    After university Joe worked as a finance and banking lawyer. He was seconded to the New South Wales Government to take a lead role in the state privatisation program. He went on to become the Senior Policy Adviser to the Treasurer and then Director of Policy to the Premier of New South Wales.

    …in 1998, was made Minister for Financial Services and Regulation

    Sounds to me like he should know quite a bit about accounting Neil. I guess you can’t complain about the source either 😆

  142. Neil appears to be missing some real pertinent points. How obvious can the bleedin’ obvious get before it starts to sink in?

  143. You would trust anyone that agreed with the Liberals shonky dealings and figures and would always disagree with any Labor dealings and figures.

    I will repeat if this were the other way round you would be damning that accounting firm and calling Swan shonky and deceptive.

    Hockey lied and the Coalition attempted and failed to pull the wool over the Australian voters.

    And if the Labor government gets favourable treatment from Treasury, even though you had no problem with them during Howard’s years, then why is the Gillard government proposing an independent panel of financial experts and that all costings be open and transparent?

    Seems a strange move for a government that you say is dishonest and if the opposition knock it back to keep with Hockey’s proposal to have secret costing that are not made public then it can only mean they have a real lot to hide and really are dishonest.

  144. Bacchus

    Would a trained economist know about the legalities of an audit?? An economist may know something about accounting but perhaps not the rules of an audit.

    I do not know. I do now that if someone steps outside their field of expertise they are soon lost.

  145. Wondering why the Coalition chose a Perth company ?

    Figures checked by firm with Liberal ties Peter Martin
    August 19, 2010.

    http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/figures-checked-by-firm-with-liberal-ties-20100818-12f8u.html


    We are asked to take both Horwath and the Coalition on trust. Then known as Hendry, Rae and Court, Horwath’s founding partner in 1938 was Charles Court, later Sir Charles, the long-serving Liberal premier of Western Australia and father of Richard Court, the Liberal premier from 1993 to 2001.

    and
    It began work on the federal Coalition’s costings in mid-June,

    Was the argument about the Treasury leak a furphy.

  146. Pip, the leaking or rather the authorised release of information construed as a leak certainly ended up a lucky accident for the Liberals. Who of course then promptly stated that they couldn’t trust Treasury and so used Horwaths.

  147. I forgot the little fact that Howarth’s had actually begun on the Coalition’s costings before the leak, and there was the Coalition immediately able to find and set in action a contract for their costings the moment they announced the leak.

    Honest my arse.

  148. Neil – in a form even you may get (imagine a lump of 4×2 hitting you behind the left ear as you read each point 😉 )

    * Mr Hockey worked as a finance and banking lawyer.
    * Mr Hockey worked as a Senior Policy Adviser to the NSW Treasurer.
    * Mr Hockey was Minister for Financial Services and Regulation.
    * Mr Hockey is currently Shadow Treasurer.

    And you expect us to believe he didn’t lie about their audit 😆 😆 😆

  149. Correction based on advice from Mobius:

    Who of course then promptly stated that they couldn’t trust Treasury and so used Howarths who prior to the leak, had already organised for Horwaths to do their costings.

  150. Lets get back to basics.

    Hockey and Robb stood in front of a Press Conference and stated that their costings had been audited by a Perth Accountant. Hockey is a Lawyer by trade (working – for the time he did “work” in a financial area) and Robb is an Economist and Ag Scientist. Either they lied – knowingly misrepresenting the figures with an $11BILLION black hole as an audit when it wasn’t – or Credlin and Louginhan could tell them to say the sky is pink with blue spots and they would only ask how often?

    So they are either lying or will say or do anything to sit in a Ministerial Office – and the LNP wants them to be considered to be the alternate Financial Ministers to Swan and Wong.

  151. It’s been thundering and pouring with rain here in Freo and I’ve been indoors all day following this fascinating thread and wondering where the ‘rhymin’ comes in. Have I missed it somehow? Please explain! Anyway I decided to make up my own. Thanks wixxy. Great post. I loved the gospel choir! I’ll be doing a full post around this at polliepomes with appropriate pictures tonight. Not sure about the title. Any ideas anyone?

    Economical With The Truth?

    From whatever point of view one looks
    The Liberal Party cooked its books
    Then claimed some firm had done an audit
    Trying to get the voters to applaud it.
    Tony Abbott will not admit that’s fraud
    Claims he’s always honest, above board.
    My bet is he’s a crook, a figures juggler
    Why else would he wear that budget smuggler?

    It’s a garment he’s learned has room to hide
    Plenty things more than his Manly pride.
    He puts it on instead of underwear
    Just in case he’s challenged and needs to swear
    About some brazen lie that he’s just told.
    Specially in Canberra where the weather’s cold.
    He can shove it down there till he’s feeling calmer
    Or gets the chance to don his body armor.

    Meanwhile his lieutenants repeat his lies.
    Hockey sweating, and with averted eyes,
    And Robb who knows that lying’s very bad
    Is looking ever more depressed and sad.
    But Abbott urges them on to fight
    For him and everything that’s good and right!
    Promises them absolution from Cardinal Pell.
    Who cares if Labor and the country go to hell?

  152. Yes, considering the level that these people are operating at, ignorance cannot be used as an excuse. These are the people at the top of the rung, the people where the buck stops. When they stand up and tell the nation that something has been done in a particular manner, we need to be able to trust them. Ignorance does not cut it at that level. It might for an underling (although I’m pretty sure someone that ignorant would be not long at the job). That level of gnorance is no excuse for a leader. If they do not know of what they speak, they should not speak, or tell us they do not know.

    No, blind ignorance is no excuse. That leaves only one excuse.

    THEY LIED!

  153. “I forgot the little fact that Howarth’s had actually begun on the Coalition’s costings before the leak,”

    Is that unusual?? I doubt that Abbott, Robb, Hockey have the time or ability to do the costings themselves. I would think political parties get outside help to draw up their policies

    Swan would send various ideas to Treasury and pick the best ideas for the ALP policy platform. He would then send them back to treasury again for final costing.

    The thing I find suspicious is Howarths made such a elementary mistake. If they are as good as Hockey makes out surely they knew how to finish their report properly by including the correct statements.

  154. Neil at best the scope as understood by the customer and the service provided varied to a large degree. If it’s not just lying – they can’t run a contract to convert some figures into a spreadsheet and ensure a disclaimer is inserted at the bottom.

    Incompetent doesn’t even start to describe both the LNP & Howarths here. If I was a Western Australian and I used the same firm – I’d be worried about the Tax Office knocking on my door, and if Howarth’s Professional Indemnity Insurance would cover me for fines and penalties. The only reason the LNP isn’t ruing the day they commissioned Howarth’s to do something is that Nonewscorp has attempted to kill the story.

    By the way – if the ALP pulled the same trick, I would be equally as critical.

  155. Sorry Sue, for outing you.

    She is in fact, the best Forensic accountant around. It’s the eye for detail, plus a great bullshit meter.
    best regards
    a fan

  156. Pingback: Budget Smugglers Won’t Hide A Black Hole. | polliepomes

  157. The only reason the LNP isn’t ruing the day they commissioned Howarth’s to do something is that Nonewscorp has attempted to kill the story.”

    Any evidence for that?? I think it is not in the media because it is a non-story. Hockey was right when he said there were legal issues about the firm getting it right since they were fined.

    And that alleged $11B black hole is over 4 years. Even if Treasury was right which I doubt it is not a lot of money compared to the size of the Australian budget. Bottom line was Treasury said the Coalition costings gave a better result.

    And just 6 months ago Treasury said our next budget deficit would be $22.6B. They just came out and revised it to $37B. That is a $14B increase in just 6 months.

  158. And that alleged $11B black hole is over 4 years. Even if Treasury was right which I doubt it is not a lot of money compared to the size of the Australian budget.

    This from one of the people screaming that it is important to have a surplus budget. Dunno if “give us a break”, “you can’t have it both ways”, or “stop that or you’ll go blind” is more appropriate.

  159. “By the way – if the ALP pulled the same trick, I would be equally as critical.”

    If they had it would have been front page news and news bulletin headlines for weeks with the ABC putting every negative angle they could on it. Abbott would have been on a constant rotation of interviews and press conferences as would have Hockey and Robb.

    In other words you would not have heard the end of it.

    But worst of all. Neil at the time not only would have banged on about how corrupt and bad Labor is but would have then continued to raise this issue ad infinitum for as long as he lives.

    In the meantime there would have been Labor supporters and those who lean left who would have also condemned it. That’s the big difference between most on the right and the left. It’s why they are called wingnuts and dingbats. They are ideologically blinkered to the exclusion of common sense and reasonableness.

  160. And that alleged $11B black hole is over 4 years.

    There is nothing ‘alleged’ about it. It is there. Any first year economics student could see it, which is probably why hockey missed it.

    They lied, and they are planning to do it again.

    And still, the murdoch press refuses to acknowledge a major story.

  161. By the way does anyone know who costed the ALP policies before the 2007 election??

    I guess there would be months of work involved in trying out different policies before they submit them for costing to Treasury under the Charter of Budget Honesty.

    Opposition parties do not have the resources of treasury to use so I guess they must use outside sources. I cannot imagine that it would be Swan, Gillard Rudd spending hours crunching the numbers back in 2007.

  162. Oh and that $11 billion is now $70 billion over four years. And that is not insignificant by Neil’s measures as that is the type of budget deficit he harangues Labor for.

    And don’t forget that is $70 billion in unfunded non-budgeted money that needs to be accounted for. They have barely started on their election policy spending and bribes.

  163. Opposition parties do not have the resources of treasury to use so I guess they must use outside sources. I cannot imagine that it would be Swan, Gillard Rudd spending hours crunching the numbers back in 2007

    Are you sure about this ?

    I thought any parties can submit their policy costings to Treasury because the Independents demanded the Opposition lodge their policy costings to Treasury which was refused.

  164. Neil tries a look over there at Labor again.

    Labor used an accounting firm that is utilised by both parties I believe, and is reputable, wasn’t fined and the figures added up.

    The thing they did that was wrong was waiting until the very last moment to put in their costings. Something Howard in opposition also used to do. It was to stop that that Howard bought in the Charter of Budget Honesty. You know that Liberal government policy they harped on about as being essential to democracy in this country, but on a sham circumvented during the last election.

  165. Neil would it be possible to get an honest answer to something everyone here already knows the answer to?

    If Labor had done exactly the same thing, using the same accounting firm and been caught out attempting to hide $11 billion by stating they have an “audit”, would you be using the same reasons you now are to excuse the Liberals to exonerate Labor?

  166. It’s interesting isn’t it.

    Labor operated under the flawed Charter of Budget Honesty for years, their complaints falling on deaf ears. The first time the opposition are forced to use their own legislation, they have a massive dummy spit.

    Labor then implement a different system, one actually called for by the opposition

    http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2011/08/22/Parliamentary-Budget-Office.aspx

    But when push comes to shove, they will spit the dummy about that too, preferring to use a system which has already been found to be deceptive to the Australian public.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/hockey-shies-from-costings-unit-as-ethics-probe-drags-on-20110912-1k62o.html

    Of course, you won’t read about any of this in the murdoch papers. Don’t want any of the shine to come off their boys.

  167. Are you sure about this ?

    No it was a question. I am not sure.


    “If Labor had done exactly the same thing, using the same accounting firm and been caught out attempting to hide $11 billion”

    No hiding at all. I think Robb still stands by the numbers. The Coalition does not agree with Treasury.

    And it was not $11B. Treasury said the bottom line would improve by $0.86B to $4.5B instead of the $11B claimed by the Coalition

  168. The Coalition does not agree with Treasury.

    That is immaterial, Treasury are the ones who set the standard. Like it or not, they are the ones you need to convince. Besides, many of the mistakes were primary school mistakes, such as counting the same numbers twice.

    It is also immaterial what the ‘bottom line’ would have been. They only achieved this by doing nothing. It’s like the last ten years all over again.

  169. So Neil doesn’t answer. Oh well, that’s immaterial as we all know the answer anyway.

    They did try to hide $11 billion by double counting, leaving out information and putting in information that shouldn’t be there.

    Robb can stand by the numbers all he likes, it just proves he can’t add up because the numbers show the accounting mistakes made, it appears quite deliberately. If Robb, Hockey and Abbott stand by them then it absolutely proves they don’t deserve to be in charge of an economy.

  170. Robb still stands by the numbers

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/robb-says-he-stands-by-costings-20100902-14o4e.html

    “Opposition finance spokesman Andrew Robb says he stands by coalition costings and says claims of a black hole relate to a difference of opinion over calculations…………..Out of 304 policies there was established at the end what I would say (was) a difference of opinion on a handful of projects,” he told ABC radio.

    “It’s not an error of costings. There is a difference of opinion when you go through the projects that they had identified. We stand by our costings.””

  171. Well Robb gave one example. They used cancelling the NBN and the amount saved using an interest rate of 5.5% on the borrowed money. Treasury used 4.9% and said there was a $900M hole in their calculations.

    The Coalition disagrees.

    I believe it was the leak about the alleged $900M hole that lead to the Coalition to get their policies costed by the Perth accountants.

  172. The libs should have available to them rates that are used by Treasury. They do not need to submit their numbers to find out details like that.

    That is just plain sloppy on joes behalf

  173. Did you read the link I gave???

    “”We said what do you use and they said `We are not telling you’,” he said.

    However, Treasury subsequently acknowledged a calculation rate of 4.9 per cent based on a weighted average of other rates that they declined to disclose.”

  174. Robb gave an example did he. This is the Robb who can’t count and the sidekick to a man with an education in accounting and finance but doesn’t know what an audit looks like.

    Oh and as an aside let’s see how it should be done.

    Swan predicts a growth figure in the midyear budget forecasts and blow me if a better than expected growth figure comes in almost spot on to what Swan predicts. Compare that to Costello who could not even get one month ahead right.

    Not only is growth better than expected with the backdrop of the rest of the world in a downturn and in economic trouble most of our other key economic indicators are also good. Manufacturing is up, investment is up, investment in capital equipment is up, interest rates down again and non-housing construction is up and both household spending and saving has increased.

    Think long and hard if Howard had won the last election and the Coalition had implemented their economic plan for the global downturn. We would have gone into a recession, have high unemployment, devastated industries and businesses because their economic plan was to do what the US and other countries that are in strife did.

    Abbott’s response today was to have a go at the “World’s Greatest Treasurer” for not being able to control banks. But Abbott really did sound flat and despondent when he said it.

    Do you believe that. The leader of a political party whose core is deregulation and the free market is deriding a Treasurer for not being able to control private banks by telling them what they should do.

  175. Fair enough nil

    As I said earlier, hoisted by their own petard. It is no excuse, Labor worked underneath those conditions while in opposition since costello implemented his failed budget of honesty caper. The libs failed to do it just once.

    They knew they were out, and tried to hide it from the public.

  176. Coalition had a less-than-awesome foursome

    The Coalition made four kinds of mistakes in its costings, according to Treasury: the inexcusable, the inexplicable, those resulting from a failure to comprehend the nature of the process, and some understandable errors.

    Libs ‘didn’t understand budget process’

    The $10.6 billion hole in the Coalition’s election policy costings identified by Treasury was caused by a breach of budgeting principles.

    A leading budget expert and former deputy secretary in the Department of Finance, Stephen Bartos, said some of the Coalition’s costing errors were understandable, as the Treasury Department had relied on information that was not publicly available to generate its estimates.

    However, about $8bn was the result of Coalition claims that Treasury and the Department of Finance were never going to accept. “It shows that there isn’t a good understanding of how the budget works amongst the general public, even among the senior parliamentarians,” Mr Bartos said.

    Bottom line – they knowingly LIED, hoping to get away with it by winning the election…

  177. Where’s Hockey? Doesn’t he usually come out and say the interest rate cuts are a sign that Labor are managing the economy poorly? Maybe he’s been silenced – an old Howard ploy. Keeping Joe’s mouth shut during tender political moments was political mastery. The situation at the moment demands he remains out of the spotlight.

  178. Neil @1.55pm, that link is from 2010. Does Robb still stand by these costings now that the accounting firm has been fined?

  179. Doesn’t he usually come out and say the interest rate cuts are a sign that Labor are managing the economy poorly?

    I thought all of this ‘reckless spending’ was putting too much pressure on interest rates?

    Maybe the need to be more reckless 😉

  180. Barnaby Joyce was on the radio waffling on about jobs and businesses going under in the bush and somehow, in an explanation I can’t fathom, it was all the Labor government’s fault.

    I’m looking for all the times he blamed the Howard government for the closure of the many rural business and loss of jobs during his tenure, but I don’t know why, there doesn’t seem to be any.

  181. An interesting one from The Drum…therefore as suspected, it is not Abbott’s Liberals who are winning, but Labor who has lost votes to the minors.

    In effect, this meant that the Coalition and Greens were attracting about the same support as they had in the 2010 election but the ALP had lost a chunk of voters who had transferred to the ‘Others’ group (independents and other minor parties).

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3717268.html

  182. Neil @1.55pm, that link is from 2010. Does Robb still stand by these costings now that the accounting firm has been fined?

    http://www.wabusinessnews.com.au/article/Perth-accountants-did-a-good-job-Robb

    “Opposition finance spokesman Andrew Robb is standing by the accountants who have been have been fined for breaching professional standards in costing the coalition’s 2010 election policies, saying they did as good a job as Treasury would have done……………………………………………………..Mr Robb said the fining of the accountants was not an embarrassment to the coalition.

    “They did a very good job. They did as good a job as Treasury, and they did as good a job anyone could have done in the country ” Mr Robb told Sky News.

    He said the opposition’s figures were correct, with 295 of its 305 election policies having been given a tick by Treasury, while the others were disputed over assumptions and were highly politicised.”

  183. And of course Robb is so reliable and unbiased on this.

    You keep quoting Robb Neil and taking his word as you always take the word of the Coalition when they lie and deceive.

    So I gather from your ardent defence of Robb and the Coalition on this if the situation was reversed and it was Labor who had deliberately avoided their own Charter of Budget Honesty and cooked the books, you would be standing up for them and Penny Wong, taking every word she said on the matter as being honest?

  184. Well the question was does Robb still stand by the costings.

    I answered the question that was asked.

    And a $10.6B hole over 4 years is not that big even if Treasury was right in a budget the size of ours. And even if Treasury was right the budget bottom line was still better no matter which Treasury figures you use. It just wasn’t an $11B improvement.

    I will repeat myself again. Within 6 months Swan has revised the deficit from $22.6B to $37B. That is a lot of money lost in just 6 months.

    Why should I trust Treasury??

  185. Barnaby Joyce was on the radio waffling on about jobs and businesses going under in the bush and somehow, in an explanation I can’t fathom, it was all the Labor government’s fault.

    Mobius, did he happen to ‘demand’ that the major banks pass on yesterday’s interest rate cut?

  186. Why should I trust Treasury??,

    Will you trust them the next time the coalition is in power and the figures add up ?.

  187. Didn’t hear that but there was a Liberal Senator with a Dutch accent who demanded that Swan order the banks to pass on the rates in full.

    He repeated the same line several times, which is obviously the opposition’s rehearsed response to the interest rate cuts.

    “Ever since Swan became Treasurer the banks have been ahead of rate rises and behind in rate cuts.”

    “Swan has no authority as Treasurer.” Also stated several times.

    In every case, no matter who in opposition has stated it, not one has said what they would do to force the banks to pass on interest rates in full.

    I also find it incongruous that the party of free enterprise and deregulation is saying that the private banks should be controlled by government and a single Treasurer in particular.

  188. Min

    Yes a new pic of Riley :). The bed with around 1000 bulbs burst into flower with the last heavy rain last week so I sat him in front of it and then cropped the pic to get him in the gravatar as much as possible.

    He passed with a clean bill of health from the vet as well. They remain amazed that he can even walk let alone run and jump ( albeit very wobbly) since his stroke.

  189. Robb stands by his figures, Neil? That’s like saying the Dodgy Brothers sold a dog with no legs. It doesn’t stand up and neither does Robb’s bogus set of books.

    Their 2010 figures would have done Al Capone proud.

    We would have gone into a recession, have high unemployment, devastated industries and businesses because their economic plan was to do what the US and other countries that are in strife did.

    Yes, ME. All signs of superior ability to manage an economy. Just ask the Derailer.

    I can’t think of that senator’s name atm, but he’s a typical Liars Party blowhard. Always aiming cheap shots at Wong and being shot down in flames.

  190. Shane, that is wonderful that Riley is doing so well. I seem to remember at one stage that the vets didn’t seem too hopeful, so extra marvellous.

  191. A Dutch sounding senator talking double Dutch by the sound of it.

    Let me guess. He’s an idiot.

    Yes, a idiot but also a very nasty and arrogant man.

    Sounds like Cory Bernardi 👿

  192. Bacchus, they are like twins. I keep mixing them up. They both need to learn how to talk to women. Their hatred for Senator Wong is well and truly on show and is childish.

    They will never be in her class and that lady does have class.

  193. There are also a couple of women, in the same class.

    I wonder where they find them.

    I must say, I do not come across such people in my day to day life.

  194. Cu, I suspect that they resent Wong’s supreme coolness under pressure. As a gay female politician, she didn’t get where she is today by suffering these sort of fools lightly.

  195. Dutch sounding Liars Party senator is Matthias Cormann, another one who should stop before he goes blind.

    They will never be in her class and that lady does have class.

    That’s why they hate her, CU. She’d run rings around them if she was on crutches.

    I wonder where they find them.

    In the front bar at 10.00am, CU.

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