Nothing to see here

Guest Post by Tom R. Tom can also be found at: News DeLimited

In the wake of the extraordinary action taken by Qantas in grounding their fleet at a moment’s notice, the (what soon turned out to be short-term) attention of the media turned to who knew what about the grounding. The telegraph came out with a story claiming that the PM had been warned, and that she could have prevented the whole saga if she had just returned a phone call. Luckily, Crikey has a snippet from the original online story which is no longer on the tele’s site.

“QANTAS CEO Alan Joyce would have abandoned his decision to ground the airline had Prime Minister Julia Gillard returned his call and promised to intervene directly in the union standoff.”

Even though the story had been denied, ltdnews continued to try and run with the line.

JULIA Gillard’s office and three senior ministers were told by Qantas management they had “options available” to avoid the fleet grounding and that CEO Alan Joyce was ready to talk to the PM.

However, when we get to their much quoted ‘script’, we hear this.

All were told: “We recognise the government has a range of options available to you, however we need to make it clear that we will not, and cannot put planes back in the air until these issues are resolved and we have certainty.”

This is their ‘evidence’ that the government was ‘warned’? That, in the ‘warning’ that they might ground flights, they admit that they already HAVE ground flights. Thats not a warning, that’s a revelation after the fact. By then, it is already too late. yet the paper would have us believe that the Government were ‘warned’.

After both the PM and joyce came out to deny this story, tony abbott was asked if he knew anything about it. True to form, yabot had a bubble-head moment, and Labor picked up on that and pursued him all day in Parliament over just what he did know and when. He finally came out and declared that he knew nothing until the Saturday afternoon. Considering we haven’t got that in writing (or pledged in blood), there is probably a huge question mark over that.

The Government pursued tabot all day over this, until he finally got up to declare, as shown in the Hansard

the first I heard about it was at about quarter to five on Saturday afternoon. If the Prime Minister and the minister for transport have any doubt, I refer them to a transcript of Steve Price on 2GB where he said he was beside me when I first learned about it. If I had prior notice of what Qantas was intending, I would hardly have booked myself and my family on Qantas the following day”

The question mark got bigger when hockey went on 7.30 with Leigh Sales to declare that “he was told by Qantas well before Saturday that it was planning to ground its aircraft.” Perhaps he should have passed this information on to yabot before he had booked his flights.

But the most interesting development in this whole charade. Once it had become abundantly obvious that the Government had not been fore-warned, but huge questions hung over what and when elements within the opposition knew about the grounding, this story became a non-item. The very next day, the only mention was a brief article in the SMH, and the replay of the interview with hockey on theirabc.

Not a mention anywhere else. Even though, the fact that opposition members were aware of an imminent grounding (even though there was no more industrial action, except for pilots wearing red ties), and allowed tens of thousands of people to become stranded. Not one iota of light has been shone on this murky subject.

And they wonder why the msm is held in such poor regard?

640 comments on “Nothing to see here

  1. And as Sue pointed out on the Murdoch thread, a (probably) manufactured story to about an iminent leadership challenge to keep the huddled masses attantion focussed elswere, anywhere but the gaping holes in the oppositions position over just what they new, and when, about the Qantas debacle.

    btw, nice post Min 😉

  2. The big look over here article in the Tele….The PLOT. Yes the same paper that would have you believe the PM is at fault for QANTAS. It makes you think that the senior journalists who wrote The Plot article were asked to write ANYTHING to take the heat off the Libs. It only makes you wonder just how deeply involved were the Libs in the Qantas dispute.

    and as scheduled Tony Abbott has just had the stunt/press conference
    blah blah blah Leadership blah blah tax blah blah
    who would have thunk

  3. Tom R i will post it here as well

    I was just listening to an interview by Fran Kelly with Roxon and Kelly spoke on an article in the Tele on the plot .

    Now for Kelly’s remarks that went like this ” Now Minister as Simon Benson and Steve Lewis are very senior journalists and assuming THEY JUST HAVEN’T MADE IT UP….”

    Now that is the Rub how can anyone just assume that when it comes to the Telegraph ( they have a track record for lying and headlining as evidence) that it is true. What a great diversion tactic for look over here when the Libs are being hammered in parliament. We will watch and see the msm today, back on safe ground, we the msm won’t have to leave our comfy office to write about this.

  4. Carr News 24

    The Plot what would you expect from Murdoch and the Telegraph

    Murdoch press the daily telegraph “Absolute disgrace absolutely outrageous” Doug Cameron, send them to a media inquiry

  5. Yes Min as soon as I saw the headline I presumed it would have been about the sudden change in tactics by the Telegraph.

    I wish it would stop the bullyboy tactics and partisan political opinions and actually report news verified by facts. Maybe this will after the media enquiry because it sure hasn’t influenced them yet.

  6. Penny Wong articulates clearly the misrepresentation that went on in hte brief time this had legs

    SABRA LANE: So you’re saying that this is a lie, that Qantas is rewriting history?

    PENNY WONG: I’m saying that it’s very important that when people talk about grounding, they are clear about the distinction between grounding as a result of engineer industrial action and grounding as a result of an employer making a unilateral decision to lock out its entire workforce and ground the entire fleet.

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3353745.htm

    The distinction here is the intermittent grounding of planes due to industrial action, and the wholesale grounding of a fleet over what could only be described as a dummy spit to match that displayed by the opposition and their oracle after the last election.

  7. TomR

    And the biggest connection that was needed apart from the Liberal/Qantas connect is the absolutely disgusting story about the AFP/Australian.

    Imagine the backlash if it became known that the premier rag put a STORY BEFORE LIVES.

    So we have 2 major stories where we have to have “look over here ”
    in operation. No doubt the heavies of journalism such as ,Kelly and Grattan, would dismiss my thoughts as just another conspiracy.

    Start looking msm you just might find something.

  8. Murdoch press a threat to democracy: Cameron
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-03/cameron-launches-attack-on-news-ltd/3616902

    A senior ALP faction leader branded Rupert Murdoch’s News Limited “a threat to democracy” today as the feud between the newspaper group and the Government intensified.

    Left faction convenor Doug Cameron’s extraordinary outburst was sparked by a story in News Limited’s Daily Telegraph reporting that former PM Kevin Rudd is being urged by his backers to challenge Prime Minister Julia Gillard.

    Senator Cameron said he would take a motion to Labor caucus seeking to widen the existing inquiry into the media to look specifically at News Limited’s “absolute hatred” of Labor.

    “The inquiry we are having into the media – we should widen it to make sure we get a decent press in this country,” he told reporters at Parliament House.

  9. More and more evidence of the lack of integrity and the dishonesty and mendacity of the Murdochracy for the media inquiry.

    Does the inquiry need submissions from the public? The Murdoch press seems to be doing all the heavy lifting as to the need for the inquiry and a regulator with big sharp teeth and a propensity to bite.

  10. I think he has nailed it Pip. I have been shocked for a long time at the pathetic level of reportage coming out from beind their walls. It was the main driver behind wanting to put online a place to keep track of their reprehensible record.

  11. Is the enquiry into our media also looking at the media laws of other democratic countries around the world.

    Why are those that demanded an enquiry into the ABC for political bias not supporting an enquiry into the print media for politcial bias ?.

  12. Min, Doug Cameron’s description isn’t extraordinary at all. what is extraordinary is that his comments have made it into the press !

    Hey journos, look over here….

    Rudd backs Gillard for PM – again
    November 3, 2011 – 11:34AM

    Kevin Rudd insists he is happy being foreign minister as other Labor MPs dismiss reports of an imminent leadership challenge against Prime Minister Julia Gillard.

    “As I’ve said one thousand times before, I’m very, very happy being the foreign minister,” Mr Rudd told reporters at Parliament House in Canberra on Thursday.

    “That hasn’t changed and won’t change.”

    The now worn out ‘hook’ is added for extra spice

    He refused to directly reject talk of a challenge to Ms Gillard, who is in France for the G20 leaders summit.

  13. Sue @ 11.15am,
    Now for Kelly’s remarks that went like this ” Now Minister as Simon Benson and Steve Lewis are very senior journalists and assuming THEY JUST HAVEN’T MADE IT UP….”

    That’s a very big assumption.

  14. Shane isn’t it revealing, not that we didn’t understand, that the ABC bashers are silent about the Murdoch scandals

  15. Off topic but worthy of reporting.

    MP Kate Ellis tweeted yesterday

    Guess I shouldn’t be shocked. Opposition have denied my leave to address
    tomorrow’s international dialogue on stopping violence against women

    Media Releases
    2011 | 2010 | 2009 | 2008
    03 Nov 2011 – Australia and the United States – Commited to Stopping Violence Against Women in the Pacific

    http://kateellis.com.au/newsroom/580/

  16. Pip @ 12.07pm..honestly, Rudd has the patience of a saint. How many times has Kevin been asked the same question and has given the exact same answer.

    I’ve got it..Abbott isn’t doing anything, no photo ops so how to fill in those empty pages in the newspapers. Lightbulb moment! Let’s run over to Kevin Rudd and ask him about his leadership aspirations. Hardly original is it…

  17. Pip

    It reveals to me that the motives were politcial and not for a better and unbiased ABC.

    They were for a more biased ABC leaning towards the right of the political spectrum and while the enquiry found no bias the ABC now seems to be leaning to the right anyway.

  18. Senate guillotines carbon tax debate
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-03/senate-passes-guillotine-motion-on-carbon-tax-debate/3616978

    The Senate has passed a motion to cut short debate on the Federal Government’s carbon tax bills so they can be passed next Tuesday.

    Labor’s guillotine motion passed the Upper House with Greens support this morning.

    The Government says dozens of senators have spoken on the bills, but Coalition senators say they have been gagged.

    “They won’t allow the carbon tax to be debated properly in the Senate,” Opposition environment spokesman Greg Hunt said.

    No debate? The Coalition don’t want a debate, they want to delay it until
    after Tony has his election next week

  19. During debate on the motion, Liberal Senator Ian MacDonald hit out at pro-carbon tax groups and their links to the Greens.

    “Can I suggest what was actually said to Senator Milne and I repeat it now, GetUp is the Hitler Youth wing of the Greens’ political movement and I stand by that,” he said.

    Name calling is risky, someone might step up and announce that the Coalition are toadies to the sometimes sociopathic corporations…

  20. Shane,
    Howard’s ABC is definitely leaning to the Right, maybe because of the outgoing Chairman’s desire for “balance”.
    The man was a stockbroker for god’s sake.

  21. EricA is cracking up about the carbon ‘tax’….and the evil Greens….and doesn’t accept comments :mrgreen:

    Carbon Copy – Strange Coincidences .
    Wednesday, 02 November 2011 20:18 Eric Abetz

    CANBERRA 2 November 2011. “What an amazing coincidence, the Greens and GetUp! both published messages online this morning pre-empting the Government’s announcement that the Carbon Tax Bills will be fast tracked for a final vote next Tuesday in the Senate.

    Of course the Coalition never coincidentally put out the same messages as ltd news !!

  22. The coalition want to debate the Carbon Bills. There has been a climate debate raging for decades and they want more debate and negotiation.

    Yet Qantas couldn’t wait to take action. No more negotiation just action.

    Funny how immediate action is demanded when the little workers are fighting for negotiations and wages.

    I suggest the Coalition loook back and see how much debate was given nto Workchoices in comparison to the Carbon Bills.

    So we now have action on Climate Change and about time.

  23. The coalition want to debate the Carbon Bills.

    Didn’t they walk out enmasse last time they were offered the chance to debate it?

  24. Min @ 1.22pm…..onya harry 😀

    “Precious petal” was protesting in a very hysterical voice a while ago !

    He just can’t get his message across, possibly because no-one cares.

  25. Further to mine @ 1.07pm.

    Of course the Coalition never coincidentally put out the same messages as ltd news !!

    Coalition fears Labor will embarrass Barack Obama with a leadership switch ahead of visit

    [Log in….not
    by James Massola who tried to shut down blogger Grogs Gamut, and failed.

    by: James Massola From: The Australian November 03, 2011
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/coalition-fears-labor-will-embarrass-barack-obama-with-a-leadership-switch-ahead-of-visit/story-fn59nm2j-1226184498276

    THE Coalition has used the upcoming Barack Obama visit to score domestic political points, warning that the “shambolic” Labor government could embarrass the US president by changing leaders on the eve of his visit.
    Leader of the House Anthony Albanese today announced arrangements for President Obama’s November 16-17 visit, which includes an address to a joint sitting of parliament and the announcement of an expanded US military presence in Darwin

  26. Pip, I think that this one could be added to the Café’s repertoire Precious Petal Pyne, what was Sue’s the other day..or was it Tom..ah well it was one of you lot 🙂

  27. Shane,
    I still remember watching Tony Abbott arrogantly guillotining the Work Choices debate.
    Suck it up senators.

  28. Min, I liked ‘mincing’ and ‘poodle’ myself, but the noses at the window would misinterpret that, so Precious Petal it is 😀

    Christopher Payne has to be the most annoyingly officious MP in the House, apart from B. Bishop…..

  29. “These people were mobile hunter-gatherers. They didn’t have a permanent base camp. They moved a lot,”

  30. Pip, not only but also all modern ethnic groups other than Africans, carry traces of Neanderthal DNA in their genomes. It’s estimated 1%-4% but studies indicate that it could be up to 10% or even more. I believe that for a Neanderthal that a loin cloth would need to more a bit more substantial than skimpy.

  31. Mates who were guests at the Birdcage on Cup Day were advised to change their airline on the previous weekend ……..about an hour before the grounding was announced. They changed to Jetstar or course.
    Gillard, Albanese etc seem to be the only ones not in the loop. Maybe they should heed calls from blokes who employ 35,000 Australians.

  32. Rasa, actually it was Abbott who did a Sergeant Shultz and knew nothing.

    Hey maybe your mates had better put their insider information out there, it goes before a Senate hearing tomorrow.

  33. yabot claimed he had just bought tickets

    Even though hockey reckons he knew

    hockey must have been cacking himself as yabot bought em lol

    Probably thought, ‘screw you, along with all those thousands of other travellers’

  34. What a load of crap.

    This whole thing is just a diversion to try and shed blame elsewhere rather than to condemn the govt on its poor handling of the situation.

    The ALP and its supporters are the masters of diverting attention.

    If the Coalition did know, someone would have spilt the beans before the shutdown.

  35. Neil, as massive Spray wrote today,

    Just go with the flow…if you’re one of those types who simply must provoke and incite aggro wherever you go, deal with the fallout and don’t go running to your blog-mummy when you get spanked..

  36. its poor handling of the situation.

    An airline spits the dummy and closes down it’s entire fleet, and the Government has it up and running again two days later

    and you call that poor handling 😯

    Only nil could do that lol

  37. Tom, I doubt Neil appreciated the fact that the FWA process worked.

    In the alternative scenario, as was probably, and hopefully anticipated by Qantas, the Prime Minister would have used the executive powers and given the ‘get back to work’ order herself.

    This would have led to Qantas leapty leaping off to their lawyers, Freehills, who are so experienced in this area.
    Instead, Qantas and the workers had to go straight back to work.

  38. “Abbott doesn’t seem to have any ideas.”

    Well Gillard certainly doesn’t.

    The ALP must love it when there loyal supporters back them in everything. Both the ALP and their brain dead supporters are trying to implicate the Liberals in some wild conspiracy theory between the Coalition and Qantas.

    Humans have trouble keeping quiet. If someone in the Coalition knew about the coming shutdown there would have been a leak from someone.

  39. Neil, I guess that we’ll find more out tomorrow during the Parliamentary enquiry. Notable is that Hockey has come clean and admitted that he knew of rumours.

  40. Neil

    Good to see you can still only comment when it also contains slander of some sort.

    Qantas abandoned its passengers worldwide in a hissyfit at a bit of union industrial action that was legal.

    No other airline has abandoned its passengers on every continent out of spite towards their employees legal representative in bargaining.

    Qantas is not a shop or a mine, it flies its passengers to all corners of the globe, some of which are down right dangerous and simply shut up shop in the most outrageous tantrum I have ever witnessed.

    The whole board should be removed and charged. If unions have to give 3 days notice then so does business.

  41. Shane, plus of course it’s not just holiday makers but it’s students and business people. I believe that I mentioned that an Aboriginal friend of mine missed out on an essential component of his studies due to not being able to fly from Perth to Sydney.

    I believe that this is being mooted, that essential services should be required under FWA to have to provide more than minimal notice.

  42. “No other airline has abandoned its passengers on every continent out of spite towards their employees legal representative in bargaining.”

    Why are you trying to implicate the Coalition in this??

  43. Tom R, those leadership challenges will be coming thick and fast while Qantas and who knew what when is still of interest.

    Sue @11.15am, …….ASSUMING THEY HAVEN’T JUST MADE IT UP???? It’s a joke isn’t it when you’ve got other journos saying that sort of thing?

    Min @11.52am, precisely. Only the most blinkered cheerleader could possibly believe that Ltd News was delivering accurate news coverage.

    Sue @12.02pm, a brilliant idea. Unfortunately, my MP is the perennially useless Liars Party dip stick Patrick Secker, but I’ll email Doug Cameron a message of support.

    Min @12.33pm, you just don’t get it. They’re going to keep asking the question until they get the answer they want. It’s like the old meme about women-saying No really means Yes.

    .

    ……..Coalition senators say they have been gagged.

    I’d like to do more than just gag the bastards!!!

    Howard’s ABC is definitely leaning to the Right,

    It’s leaning so far to the Right they had to call in the engineers that keep the Leaning Tower from falling over to prop it up, Pip.

    Tom R @1.32pm, they certainly did! Couldn’t be bothered to try to have some input into the framing of the Bill and couldn’t be bothered debating it! The “alternative ” government in inaction representing their adoring fans to the best of their lack of abilities.

    THE Coalition has used the upcoming Barack Obama visit to score domestic political points, warning that the “shambolic” Labor government could embarrass the US president by changing leaders on the eve of his visit.

    They wish, Pip. Desperation writ large. The government is creaming them in QT and they still can’t get their stories straight over who knew what and when about the farcical grounding debacle! They are a joke, in very poor taste!

    Bugger it, I’ll combine the words Mincing Poodle, Mincing Poodle…… has a certain ring to, I think you’ll admit.

    Do we need any more proof that Abbott is in bed with the Murdoch media?

    OMG, Roswell! He’s, he’s….not …..pregnant? Carrying Rupert’s child! Do you think they’ll get married?

    ROFL, Pip @2.12pm.

    Min @2.20pm, it pays to advertise. 🙂

  44. Still cannot work out what this has to do with the Coalition.

    Gillard is in govt not Abbott.

    I guess the Unions told Gillard that there would be no industrial action during the Melbourne Cup weekend. It is not good for the govt to be in collusion with the Unions.

    And Shane, what have you said that has anything to do with Abbott??? If Qantas is bad how is that Abbotts fault??

  45. Neil, equally what’s it got to do with the government. FWA was convened within a few hours after Alan Joyce’s formal notification.

  46. Pip @212

    “I think I read somewhere that the Neanderthals wore skimpy
    red loin cloths”

    That was until their employer said that the wearing of red loin cloths was Union action of the most disgraceful, it was shattering , it must STOP

  47. Give us a break David Speers on Sky 🙄

    Quote: Kevin Rudd is saying that he loves being Foreign Minister BUT he didn’t say that he doesn’t loves being Prime Minister.

    Talk about grasping at straws.

  48. “Neil, equally what’s it got to do with the government. ”

    Apparently the govt was warned by Qantas that something like this might happen. Seems like they sat back and did nothing. If you looked at Hockeys interview he said that Howard asked him to speak to tristar about some industrial dispute. You can do things behind the scenes.

    But I think it is a diversion by the masters of diversion to try and make out this has something to do with the Coalition.

    Shane even implies that the behaviour of Qantas has something to do with Abbott.

  49. Neil, there were apparently rumours floating around parliament house according to Joe Hockey. However, one cannot possibly take action based on mere rumours. I should imagine that there are a thousand and one rumours floating around parliament house.

  50. Neil, they only abandon their passengers.

    They did not abandon their freight. That kept coming.

    Qantas set out to caused the greatest disruption possible.

    The court did not accept that Qantas was being badly harmed by the unions. They did not accept Qantas figures.

    I believe thy also felt that the governments figures where also exaggerated.

    What happened that the PM was too wily to accept the script that the Opposition, Qantas and some in the media had set for her.

    The result is that within 30 hours, the planes are back in the air.

    Virgin showed their strengths by filling much of the vacuum at short noticed.

    Virgin did this with pilots and staff they have been able negotiate with by talking to their staff and no industrial disputes.

    Virgin appear to have no problems working under th IR laws.

    The PM has been able to get on the planet represent the country overseas.

    Neil, the matter has been settled.

    The PM did not stir the hornet’s nest up.

    I believe Mr. Abbott is heading back to Victoria. He is spending a lot of time there now. Must be the climate.

    .

  51. “Neil, they only abandon their passengers.”

    What the hell has this got to do with Abbott and the Coalition??????????

    You people are crazy.

  52. Murdoch in bed with Abbott?
    Surely not with a fellah?
    I’d never pick him as a f…ot,
    I think he’d prefer Mirabella.

  53. My first comment was about whether the Coalition knew about the shutdown was a diversion by Labor and its supporters.

    Shane then comes out and says how badly behaved was Qantas.

    What has this got to do with the Coalition??

    You people are all the same. Trying to flog off blame from Gillard to Abbott.

    Its been turned into some vendetta by Qantas and Abbott against Gillard.

    Spin away Labor supporters. It is amazing what fairy tails can be dreamed up to help your masters in Canberra

  54. Neil, these were 2 separate comments neither had anything to do with the other.

    It is indeed likely that Qantas is counting on Abbott’s support in their attempt to move operations to Asia thereby cancelling quite a number of Australian jobs. Abbott’s modus operandii has been to use every opportunity whether or not it’s for the good of Australia and her people as a ‘political opportunity’. It’s quite a cynical attitude and quite different from other leaders of the opposition, of both parties.

    The above is a personal opinion and based on my own observations.

  55. Patricia be aware that you have by the above quote proven you are homophobic.

    I have cut and pasted to give you a chance to depend yourself.

    That is only fair. I personally think it is time for this silly behaviour to cease but one person alone will not let it be.

    “……..Patricia fits in well to the centre of orderly discourse…

    https://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/nothing-to-see-here/#comment-43107

    “Murdoch in bed with Abbott?
    Surely not with a fellah?
    I’d never pick him as a f…ot,
    I think he’d prefer Mirabella”

    Patricia is a proven (again) to be a homophobic, but is popular and well looked after there.

    I suppose she has an excuse too………..”

    http://sprayoftheday.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/blogwars/

    It seems that PC declares that there can be no jokes that implies a man might not go to bed with another man.

    It is Mr. Abbott that is being attacked, nothing else.

  56. Neil

    I suggest you re read my comments you are becoming hysterical. I was using the tactics as an example of both the coalition and Qantas board of taking immediate action for their own agendas yet always demanding unions negotiate for months even years before taking any action. I was also comparing the coalition ramming through workchoices like a tank with no debate compared to their demands for even more debate over climate change after it has been deabted in public for decades.

    Just like your conspiracy theories and hatred of everything ALP I believe the coalition knew of the impending action by Qantas, despite the so called booking tickets and being in a tent with News Limited shock jocks. I believ Qantas board needed to ensure one side of politics would jump to their defence if they chose to abandon australian citizens around the world and that is exactly what happened. Instead of the coaltion blaming the board, like they would do the union, the coalition blamed the government for the antics of a privately listed company.

    I blame the coalition for stalling tactics on Carbon Pricing and seeking even more debate after there have been debates and reports and enquiries and hearings for over a decade on the issue, yet they rammed WorkChoices through like a train wreck. No debate there.

    The Coalition support the Qantas board and Alan Joyce. The board and Alan Joyce made the decision to leave passengers stranded all over the world, Not the unions. The Board and Alan Joyce made the decision to abandon our citizens all over the world, not the unions. The Coalition blame the government. The government did not do this tactic the Qantas Board did and the coalition have supported them.

    The tactic has not been publicly popular as the opinion is against the Qantas board for leaving our citizens abandoned and exposed,so it is now being shunted into the background by news limited with a bogus leadership challenge claim because the public refuse to accept that this despicable tactic is the fault of the unions.

  57. If anyone is concerned about the lack of time to respond to the bills, I suggest they tune into the Senate Committee Hearing that is still going.

    There are very few questions that relate to the bills.. No amendments. Much raving and ranting.

    I have the feeling Senator had a long liquor lunch. That is all I can think of for his 15 minutes of rambling words that made no sense. I HATE TO SAY THAT, I DO NOT MIND THE MAN.

    Maybe the Opposition would be better to cease there moaning and actually take time to read the bill.

    One senator wants the Greens shut up. At least the Greens are relevant to the bill.

  58. PS The Greens are actually answering a lot of questions.

    Many sound like they want to cry. (Opposition)

  59. Senator Cameron has nor taken over the chair. The Opposition are now challenging him, claiming he is unfair. Mr. Cameron is doing no more that the lady before him.

    I must admit, at this late date, there are some questions being asked.

    This changed appeared to coincide with Mr. Boswells efforts.

    Still no amendments.

    The Opposition is now not opposing two bills.

  60. Cu, you’d have to find a lot more evidence than that of homophobia! Friends of mine often call themselves faggots, and nowadays with the widespread acceptance of homosexuality, which I share, no one of common sense would take offence in what is clearly a light hearted rhyme.

    However, I was careful to use the traditional ommission with its “…” so no one should be complaining. I’m a very old woman but I won’t complain of ageism if someone calls me a ‘silly old bat’

    But if it offends anyone here I’ll amend it, or delete it. I never go to that other place, so what I don’t know doesn’t bother me. Those people don’t exist in my world.

  61. Go for it Qantas I am sure the shareholders will be happy

    02 Nov 2011 1.575 -3.37%
    01 Nov 2011 1.630 1.12%
    31 Oct 2011 1.612 4.34%
    28 Oct 2011 1.545 -1.59%
    27 Oct 2011 1.570 3.63%

    So apart for the blip on monday and tuesday it is back to normal for the shareholders, a price that is declining and no dividend. What a winner

  62. I’m not sure how to say this but I have been rather difficult of late.

    I don’t ask for forgiveness – I don’t deserve it. I’m going back to Gutter Trash where I belong and rude commentary is encouraged.

    I won’t be back. Carry on with your good work.

  63. Sue

    Yes I fully expect the media to comment on the loss of 3.37% today the way they championed the 4.34% 2 days ago as though Alan Joyce had performed a Lazarus on the company. Unfortunately while Qantas was abandoning its passengers and our citizens Virgin was ramping up businesas class.

    I understand that Qantas employees in some sectors are paid more than Virgins so if they want to change benefits why not simply apply them to new employees.

    My previous employer did this with numerous benefits including Health Insurance and Home Loans. The benefits were withdrawn for new employees.

    Current employees including myself were happy with that becuase new employees knew those benefits did not apply to them from the start, but those with the existing benefits kept them.

    These days there is over a 13% churn in employees in the average big business so the benefits will disappear on average over a 7 year period with immediate benefits for every new employee replacing one that resigns or retires.

  64. I seem to remember, when Mr. Howard had an important event that needed Sydney to be closed off to it’s citizens. An event that needed high wire fences around it City centre. One where there was the greatest show of security this country has seen. One where there where numerous heads of governments from across the world.

    At he same time I seem to recall Howard’s back bench having secret meetings, that the public seem to be aware of, plotting to remove Mr. Howard.

    I would suggeest that is the Opposition that has form and is known for this type of behaviour, not Labor

    “……THE Coalition has used the upcoming Barack Obama visit to score domestic political points, warning that the “shambolic” Labor government could embarrass the US president by changing leaders on the eve of his visit.

    Leader of the House Anthony Albanese today announced arrangements for President Obama’s November 16-17 visit, which includes an address to a joint sitting of parliament and the announcement of an expanded US military presence in Darwin.
    ….”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/foreign-affairs/coalition-fears-labor-will-embarrass-barack-obama-with-a-leadership-switch-ahead-of-visit/story-fn59nm2j-1226184498276

  65. No, it was not at that other place. It was MS.

    I was highly insulted when they labelled me a grey hair, middle class , I think latte crowd.

    I, as you did not mind the grey hair or latte. I am grey hair and do like a cup of coffee. I am also overwrite, if the wanted to throw that one in. I objected to the middle class. I object to this because it assumes I have led a sheltered life.

    They are very well behaved at that other site. Migs should be congratulated for raising standards across the sites.

    I mainly objected because it was directly aimed at me and no one else, as is occurring to you.

    What you wrote is not aimed at any on any of the sites.

    I do not take kindly to be told how to think. I do not like being told what I am allowed to think.

    I do not demand others think like me. It would be a boring world.

  66. CU, they wish. Of course it won’t happen. Rudd is very happy as Foreign Minister.

    Neil, you twat, Sloppy spruiked that rumours of the grounding were circulating around parliament for weeks before it happened.

    If that’s so, how come Liiealot, the press and the government knew nothing about it? And if Sloppy knew all about it, why didn’t he tell Liealot?

    And wasn’t it his duty to inform the government as it was a matter of national importance. Yet he didn’t. What if it was rumours of a terrorist attack?

    Are you the only one who finds it astonishing that Sloppy is the ONLY person in Canberra who heard these rumours? Not another soul has confirmed Sloppy’s lies story.

    Or is it the case that Sloppy is just a big fat liar?

  67. Jane
    What if it was rumours of a terrorist attack?
    that’s ok, the oo will have a front page story

    CU
    Boy, I remember APEC, the previous mrs pm was in a snoot because mrs president decided not to come. But whatever happened to the crowd control water canon? the canon paraded in sydney in case the plebs got out of control and then they were all shown up for idiots by the chaser.

    And compare APEC to CHOGM, then as soon as the Queen flies out Qantas does its thing. And the PM handled it all, what a PM

  68. Yes, Sue, but his party were taking action to get rid of him. Yes he did survive, but the people did a good job of it shortly after.

    I cannot see Labor caucus or cabinet taking similar action when President Obama visits.

  69. CU

    You don’t believe the Opposition? what a shock! afterall the msm believes the coalition has inside sources in the Labor party.

    Now as for the Obama visit, let us hope that Pyne has a previous engagement.

  70. “Neil, you twat, Sloppy spruiked that rumours of the grounding were circulating around parliament for weeks before it happened.

    If that’s so, how come Liiealot, the press and the government knew nothing about it? ”

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3351862.htm

    “FRAN KELLY: Had you ever suggested to a minister, any minister, that grounding the airline was the possible option that would trigger an end to this?

    ALAN JOYCE: Yes, on multiple occasions I said that was a possibility.

    FRANK KELLY: That you would, that you would have to ground the fleet?

    ALAN JOYCE: I said on multiple occasions we could get to a stage where we’d have to ground the airline. That is how bad this was and that was made very clear.”

  71. Neil, whether the PM knew that Mr. Joyce was going to ground the planes is of little importance.
    It is my belief, she did not know.
    It is not the PMs Duty to take sides. It is not the PM’s job to take on the unions. It is not her job to support or take sides with Qantas. A PM should not and does not have that power.
    It is the PM task to make decisions on behalf of the country.
    It is up to the employer and employees to negotiate in good faith.
    As far as the PM knew, this was occurring.
    There were three joint meetings overseen by Mr Albanese up to last Wednesday. Mr. Albanese was given the impression that they were moving towards a solution. The unions have abandon propose action to decelerate the dispute.
    The PM has the duty to ensure the infrastructure is in place to ensure success.
    The PM acted as Mr. Hawke did by waiting for the appropriate time to act. This time was when there was evidence that the dispute has accelerated.
    The PM took the appropriate action by intervening at a time and place that ensured the greatest success with the less interruption.
    The planes were back in the air in 33 hours. The parties have been ordered to come to a decision in 21 days. If not, the decision will be made for them.
    This is not what Mr. Joyce hoped to achieve. He wanted the matter to bypass FWA to the High Court.
    The Liberal and many employers do not want or like industrial courts. They believe all matters should be heard in the High Court, not a specialise court. This was a main arm of WorkChoices.
    There was pressure put on the PM by two State Premiers and Mr. Abbott, on the Friday to take action. The PM refused to do this, as acceleration of the dispute was needed.
    Mr. Joyce was forced to act. He was not willing to continue the negotiations. He grounded the planes, I believe, in the belief that the workers would walk out. This did not occur. I believe there has been provoking of the workers to do this for months.
    What Mr. Joyce and Mr Abbott wanted, was the PM to make a ministerial announcement declaring that all protected action was off and cease negotiations?
    It is likely the matter would end up in the High Court. It was possible the planes would remain on the ground. No one knows. (That part of the act was left in from earlier acts. That often happens when reforms are made. Why the PM left that part of the act in, would be interesting to know. Maybe it was not seen as worthwhile fighting the employers over)
    The PM chose the alternative option, requesting FWA to lift the protected industrial action and ordered the planes into the air.
    The FWA did not consider Qantas actions reasonable or necessary. They did not agree with Qantas that the unions had overstepped the mark.
    The PM did the correct thing; she waited for the right time to intervene, when the dispute accellerated. That is when the planes were grounded. The PM intervened at the right time and place to bring a speedy solution with the less interruption.
    This is not only an industrial dispute, it is also was highly political. It still has a long way to go.
    Neil, it is not always about them and us. It is not always black and white. It is not always simple.

  72. Neil,just to let you know, we sometimes do mention what Mr. Abbott says. I am interested to see how those on this site, interpret Mr. Abbott’s words.

    “…………This week the government virtually declared war on Qantas for taking on the unions.

    It attacked the Murdoch Press as a “threat to democracy” for a story about Kevin Rudd’s looming leadership challenge. And it said that the Economist’s Business Intelligence Unit “wasn’t worth the paper it’s written on” for criticising the National Broadband Network.

    This government can’t help itself. It tries to bully everyone and everything that gets in its way – except the Greens who set the government’s agenda and the union officials who choose the Labor Party’s leader.

    For months, Qantas had been subject to the disruption from unions concerned about the company’s attempts to stay competitive. Before last Saturday, more than a thousand flights had been cancelled or seriously delayed by industrial action that the company said was costing it $15 million a week.

    After shareholders had backed management at the AGM last week, three unions threatened the company with a “slow bake” that would bleed the company without resolving disputes over manning and restructuring. Grounding the entire airline was a drastic response but at least it promised to bring the disputes to a head and have them resolved by the industrial umpire. …

    …….Afterwards, the government attacked the company as “extreme”. Minister Simon Crean even referred to “scab” workers and falsely accused the company of sacking people.

    It’s no way to run a country but it’s typical of the Gillard government: it was warned; it did nothing; then it mucked things up. Whether it’s border protection, live cattle or Qantas, that’s the way this government conducts itself. Even Kevin “pink batts” Rudd thinks he could do a better job than the current Prime Minister and, on form, he probably would.

    ………….Opposition Leader Tony Abbott blogs with you Friday at midday, send questions below.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/yoursay/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/qantas_flies_government_crashes

    Shocking mess the PM has got this country into. Of course we do have to ignore many inconvenience truths.

    Like we have the best economy in the world. We are the second best country to live in. We have low unemployment and interest rates.

    Maybe some can add to the list.

    I will agree, the PM is not frighten of a fight I am sure that Mr. Abbott is learning that.

  73. So summarising a hundred blogs above. The unions had been allowed to disrupt the Qantas business for months. Joyce and the Qantas Board shut the business down, as they should, to end the union nonsense. Now Gillard and the Unions are sitting up and listening. The stupid unions are now be on the sidelines, as they should.
    Gillard has been wedged once again. Gillard now moves on from the Qantas unfinished business to the unfinished business of the mining tax…. then the unfinished Wilkie pokie BS and then we come back to the Craig Thomson affair at the end of November. The asylum seeker policy debacle will go into recess during the monsoon season to come back bright eyed and bushy tailed in March. The Labor Party Leadership business gets sorted over Christmas/New Year. …and I see Swan is going to borrow $3Billion to give to the IMF
    It has been a rolling Swan/Green/Gillard clusterfuck since the election. …..
    …never watched it but the Gillard story must be something like the political version of “Days of Our Lives”
    clusterfuck. yep that about sums it up.

  74. Joyce and the Qantas Board shut the business down, as they should, to end the union nonsense.

    As they should? 😯 Obviously you are not one of the tens of thousands who found themselves stranded when joyce spat the dummy. There was another way to end the dispute, simply approach fair work and the same result could have been achieved, without all of the collateral damage.

    The Gillard government’s application to Fair Work Australia to end the dispute was made under provisions of the act, which Qantas itself could have chosen to activate. In fact, Qantas, any of the unions involved, or even Fair Work Australia itself is able to make use of the provisions.

    http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/politics/fair-work-gets-a-fair-play-in-airline-war-20111031-1ms5r.html

    This fiasco is solely the result of the decision by joyce, which has resulted in what could have been achieved without all of the hurt to passengers.

    And, if Hockey knew that something like this was on the cards, as he claims he knew, it was in the interests of the passengers that they were aware. As far as the Government was aware, and going on what joyce had told them, progress was being made, not the escalation that ensued.

    And, considering Hockey knew, and since we haven’t got a ‘blood oath’ from yabot, then questions still remain over what exactly was known by whom, and what exactly was their role in it all.

    It has been proven that this was not a decision that the board decided to make entirely on the Saturday, as they claimed, so when, why, and by whom are the questions the media should be asking.

    Instead, we have infantile speculation over leadership issues, issues which it has been shown in the past when it does actually happen, that the media are completely blind-sided by. Proving just how totally inaccurate and inept they truly are.

  75. As usual Geoff gets everything wrong and tits up, nothing new there. It’s the way wingnuts see the world knowing they are so screwed up and wrong they continually have to make things up and create other realities to justify their flawed ideological point of view.

    Wonder what it’s like to know you are supporting a whole bunch of buffoons with a clown as their leader that is the Federal Liberal Party. Abbott, Hockey and Robb in parliament demonstrated why they are a bunch of monkeys in a barrel without a clue about the real world.

  76. ToM, I get the impression that all that Hockey knew was that there had been rumours floating around parliament house. Obviously Hockey did not either believe the rumours or didn’t consider that anything was going to happen in the immediate term, because then he would have told Abbott.

    On the other hand, an option is that Abbott is telling a big porkie about not knowing.

    which Qantas itself could have chosen to activate.

    Amazinging even the MSM has picked up on that one..maybe baseless? Good guess journo!

    The leadership speculation, which may well be baseless, at the very least served as something distractingly shiny for the opposition to focus on, after the tide of the Qantas debate started to swing against them this week.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/a-right-ruddy-spectacle-but-no-leadership-answers-20111103-1mxy1.html#ixzz1cfm54ljH

  77. One thing that really really urks me is how some cherry pick and use this cherry picking in an attempt to turn a positive into a negative. A good example comes from the link above from the SMH.

    Hogging the limelight? Well if appearing at an End Polio Concert and announcing that Australia will be providing $50 million in a new global eradication program is ‘hogging the limelight’..then may we see a lot more of this.

    Rudd, who seems to have shaken off the terrible cold which in no way stopped him from hogging the limelight at CHOGM (including a rather startling appearance at a rock concert) didn’t look like he was trying too hard to avoid the cameras, or the reporters with them.

  78. The Senate inquiry today and this is of interest.
    “Liberal Senator Bill Heffernan usually sits on the committee but he is boycotting the Canberra hearing.

    “I don’t think Senate committees should be used as political tools in industrial disputation,” Senator Heffernan said.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-04/joyce-to-face-qantas-inquiry/3626292

    Now Bill likes to think of himself as a tough cookie, always popping up asking questions, but he has decided to boycott the hearing. Now I wonder why Heffernan doesn’t want to know what Joyce has to say or does he think that the escalation of the dispute by Joyce, was a cr@p thing to do to their customers. Or maybe Bill just doesn’t want to ask the dorothy dixers supplied by the liberal party room.

  79. “And wasn’t it his duty to inform the government as it was a matter of national importance. Yet he didn’t. What if it was rumours of a terrorist attack?”

    Joyce has said he warned the govt many times of the possibility of grounding Qantas which everyone knew about.

    Albanese has come out and said they were never told of the possibility of the lockout of the workforce.

    Notice the diversion by the masters of diversion. Albanesleazy never denied being told that Qantas may ground the fleet. He said they were never told of a workforce lockout.

    Journalists are hopeless in this country. They should have tried harder to get Albanese to admit what he actually knew.

  80. From the Senate, what the article from the ABC did not mention

    Senator Bill Heffernan, who is boycotting the hearing,is THE DEPUTY CHAIR.

    Members
    Senator Sterle (Chair), Senator Heffernan (Deputy Chair) and Senators Gallacher, Nash, Siewert and Urquhart
    Senator Edwards to replace Senator Heffernan for the committee’s inquiry into the Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011
    Senator Ludlam to replace Senator Siewert for the committee’s inquiry into the Air Navigation and Civil Aviation Amendment (Aircraft Crew) Bill 2011
    Senator Cameron to replace Senator Urquhart on 4 November 2011
    http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/membership/index.htm#Rural

    Now Heffernan’s replacement, Edwards, is a new Senator, from 1/7/11

  81. The Federal Government has seized on comments by shadow treasurer Joe Hockey that he was told by Qantas well before Saturday that it was planning to ground its aircraft.

    So why didn’t Hockey immediately inform the Minister – why did Hockey not immediately advise that the rumours about an impending strike had some substance. Why, if failing to be able to contact..and it seems that he was unable to contact anyone at all, therefore not go public.

  82. And for Qantas the questioning form the ACCC will be about who, what, where and when.
    “The potentially more contentious period was the week before the announcement. It was during this period that much of the work for the grounding of the fleet was receiving its finishing touches.

    In the days before the grounding, personnel were sent to Qantas ports around the world to deal with the fallout from stranded passengers. Hotels and transfers were booked for customers in what appeared like a military operation.

    One source said those sent to deal with passengers in the US had flown on rival United Airlines in order to maintain secrecy.”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/all-a-matter-of-timing-in-qantas-grounding-20111103-1mxv6.html#ixzz1cfy9GTbj

  83. “So why didn’t Hockey immediately inform the Minister”

    According to Joyce they were informed. Notice the very specific answer by Albanese.

    “”At no stage – at no stage – did he indicate the possibility of a lockout of the workforce, which has precipitated his announcement of a 5pm shutdown of Qantas, both domestic and internationally,” Mr Albanese said.”

    He didn’t say they were never told planes were not going to be grounded. Albanese is just playing semantics.

    What is the difference between grounding planes which they were told about and a workforce lockout???

  84. Neil

    There is a total difference between warning of something and it actually happening.

    I don’t care if Alan Joyce warned our whole population via adverts for the last 2 years that there is a chance of Qantas shutting up shop in a tantrum. He should have given 3 days notice just like a union requirement as he has commenced industrial action against his customers by withdrawing service just a like union withdraws service.

    It is a disgraceful industrial tactic by an anti union stacked board of which I have no doubt they would have scoured every legal avenue and examined every possibility in how to destroy the unions and destroy the government and thought they had found the way to do it.

    Problem is it did not unfold as they expected and the majority public mood is against Qantas for having the audacity to shut up shop and abandon our citizens and its passengers worldwide.

    This time no matter how the action is spun by anyone or any side it was an unforgiveable, unpatriotic and un Australian act by a bullyboy thug menagement led by a CEO who has presided over not only industrial trumoil but a 52% overall decline in shareholder wealth while receiving massive payrises.

    In my eyes and most others Qantas si not longer our national airline or a national icon. I will be treating it with the same disdain as I treat Telstra. A very large private company seeking nothing other than to rip off customers while screwing their workers while paying obscene wages to their CEOs while claming Icon status to seek sympathy form the Australian Public as though it is still government owned.

    The different standards and target hurdles for salaries of Management to Employee Workers is becoming starkly evident as the years roll on. Maybe one day the Superannuation Funds will wake up and look long term not short term when it comes to CEO remuneration.

  85. He didn’t say they were never told planes were not going to be grounded. Albanese is just playing semantics.

    No nil, it is you playing ‘semantics’

    Joyce, it is true, had warned that flights may be grounded. The Unions had said the same. This had happened. He hadn’t warned them that he might gound the entire fleet in a precipitous motion. That is a different proposal, semantics or not.

    “Qantas had certainly raised with me … the problems they were having with the fleet and the grounding of the fleet, in terms of the grounding of particular planes,” Mr Albanese said.

    “Seven aircraft had been grounded. Mr Joyce had indicated … that obviously if planes kept being grounded at a rate of two a week it would reach some point whereby there were a range of aircraft grounded, and therefore the airline would not operate.

    “But at no stage did he indicate the possibility of a lockout of the workforce, which has precipitated a shutdown of Qantas, both domestic and international.”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/qantas-forced-to-end-worker-lockout/story-fnaskcqt-1226181649429

    There is a huge difference from what the Government were told and what happened. Hockey appeared to have known more than that.

  86. shaneinqld

    “unforgiveable, unpatriotic and un Australian act by a bullyboy thug menagement ”

    and guess who sits on the Qantas board and likes to include in his bio
    General Peter Cosgrove, AC, MC
    General Cosgrove was Australian of the Year in 2001.

  87. You will notice that Albanese has not said what he was told.

    He has said they were never told of a workforce lockout.

    personally I would never trust anything he says anyway. but he gave a very careful non-answer.

    He should be grilled about what he was told.

    You people are trying to make out there was some collusion between Hockey and Qantas. Trying to divert the issue onto another political party.

  88. Neil

    If the enquiry finds that the government knew and the company is blameless for its actions and the union at fault you will claim it a fair and true outcome from an unbiased committee.

    If the enquiry determines that the company was at fault and it should have not done what it did and the opposition was aware of the impending total shutdown you will deem it a farce and a puppet enquiry of the untrustworthy totally dishonest and lying ALP.

  89. Sue

    If Peter Cosgrove was aware of this impending action and did not agree he should have resigned before the tactic was implemented. As no management did any such thing one can only presume they all fully supported the despicable action to abandon our citizens and their passengers.

  90. Here is an idea some journalist interview Cosgrove, oh sorry General Peter Cosgrove, AC, MC former Australian of the year 2001.

  91. You will notice that Albanese has not said what he was told.

    He seemed to be pretty clear from the quotes I put up

  92. Basically the goverment got it right – you cannot invoke previously unused powers based only on rumours. The government clearly could not take action until it was formally advised.

    The same goes for the terrorism analogy – any number, thousands of rumours might circulate but until the government is advised via investigation and a strong suspicion as to some factual information concerning the rumour, then it would be reckless to invoke further powers.

  93. Shane

    I am not really into what you are trying to say. Qantas is bad – fine.

    This lot are trying to make out there was some collusion between the Coalition and Qantas most probably organised by Murdoch.

    It is spin designed to divert attention away from Gillard by the masters of diversion.

    I don’t care what Hockey knew. He is not in govt.

    What did Albanese know??? All he has said is that they were never told there would be a workforce lockout. He has not said they were never told the fleet could be grounded.

  94. Neil, it is not ‘this lot’ here as some sort of unsubstianted rumour or opposition-bashing (although we quite enjoy that as well ;)) – on this occasion it is based on Joe Hockey’s own statement to the press.

  95. Joyce is to face the Senate Aviation Committee this morning to answer questions about whether his decision to lock-out all workers was premeditated.

  96. Neil

    I am part of “this lot” as I comment and Blog here. So you lump me in with the others by association.

    Unlike yourself I think spin comes form both sides and I have supported coaltion governments and their decisions. See my comment in reargds to fixed term elections made by the WA Coalition . You on the other hand are unable to support anything the ALP does.

    Are you able to tell me emphatically that the Qantas board did not seek advice from the coalition on any tactics or any possible action against the unions. I would find it very strange if the company did not wish to have support ( even if that is muted silence) from the political party that blindly supports big business.

    I would find it equally strange if a union was going to shut down a whole business and the ALP was unaware.

    The difference is a Union is required by law to give 3 days notice so eveyrone in the whole world knows for at least 72 hours and can make alternaitve arrangements.

    Qantas not only bad but despicable. I think Mr Burns must have bought shares in their company last month.

  97. “on this occasion it is based on Joe Hockey’s own statement to the press.”

    Yep.

    The govt was told many times the fleet could be grounded.

    What is your point???

  98. Neil

    “I don’t care what Hockey knew. He is not in govt.”

    I do care and I have absolutely no doubt that if the “Levy for Everything Government” was still in power and Hockey was an ALP politician you would be damnding no less that what that MP knew.

    I actually care about everyone on any side of politics that knew and what steps they took to protect our citizens.

    If any politician knew prior to the despicalbe 3 hours notice then I demand to know what action they took to ensure protection of our citizens. Both the Government and The Opposition have a duty to our citizens at all times, it doesn’t simply absolve when they are in opposition.

    Qantas are very lucky that no passenger was abducted or worse when their flights were stopped and they were stranded at terminals around the world.

  99. The stupid libs have been rabbitting on about using a certian section of the FWA.
    now the PM had at least 2 options,
    use the part of the act left over by Workchoices and supported by Joyce and Abbott and untested and can lead to court action
    or
    use the part of the FWA written by herself.

    Tough ask isn’t it.

  100. What does amaze me is that the media seem more interested in the Kasrdashian family and a separation of an American reality celebrity couple, than happenings in our own country.

  101. Sue, it is an absolute certainty the using this previously unused section of the Act would have lead to a lengthy court battle. All the bleatings from Abbott about why didn’t the PM take this path of action must make a person somewhat suspicious that this is what Abbott really wanted to happen. One then has to question WHY.

  102. Shane, I was reading somewhere that if you can name all of the Kardashian family, that it’s time to stop reading the Murdoch media.

  103. Neil

    Did Qantas specifically state that when we decide to strand our passengers and your citizens we will give you the untenable notice of 3 hours.

    Qantas was doing what most companies do during enterprising bargaining, predict armageddon.

    A classic example is the Westpac CEO announcing once again a massive lift in profit.

    The Banks have told us for 11 years that conditions remain tenuous, competitive measures are higher than ever, overseas conditions will have an impact on our result, GFC etc, etc.

    Yet each and every year without fail they have delivered increased profits while crying poor to their employees and seeking sympathy with their hollow words form the public.

    Problem is the media who are aslo big businesses and depspise unions report their words as gospel and people fall for it.

  104. I note comments elsewhere about my deleting my own comment..it was a quote from the other place’s blogmaster. On reading it, I thought nah stupidity and vindictiveness shouldn’t be encouraged.

  105. “I actually care about everyone on any side of politics that knew and what steps they took to protect our citizens.”

    Good point. So far there have only been accusations by this lot that Hockey knew and Albanese did not.

    The govt was warned that the fleet could be grounded many times. Joyce even rang Gillard up but she turned down the phone call.

    And you major on the Opposition. They are not in govt.

    It was Gillard who turned down the phone call because she didn’t want to deal with the issue. She had he power to stop the grounding and did not use it.

  106. Neil, the moot points are ‘warned’ and ‘could be’. Warned how? Full page newspaper adverts? So Joyce warned the travelling public that Qantas could be shut down any tick of the clock? And as noted, Joyce could be in big trouble if it is shown that he was still collecting $s for airfares when he knew that he was intending a lockout of workers.

    Gillard was in a meeting and unavailable to be reached by phone. The furphy run by the Daily Telegraph about the non-existent attempts to contact the PM have since been refuted by Alan Joyce himself.

  107. Apparently Qantas has had many meeting with govt ministers and they were told many times that the fleet could be grounded.

    All Albanese has stated is that they were not told there would be a workforce lockout.

    So Albanese admits they had meetings where they were told things. Nothing about a lockout however. They were told the fleet could be grounded.

    But you lot major on the people not in govt.

    What did Hockey know?? Who cares. He would have heard rumours as it would be impossible to keep the talks Qantas had with Albanese quiet.

  108. from grog twitters

    http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/

    Also nil, there was no phone call for the PM to respond to. Joyce has confirmed this. The Government were not warned that the fleet was going to be grounded in one fell swoop. Joyce has just admitted to Xenophone that he had not expressed to the Government that this was an option.

  109. Thank you, Tom R, Shane, Min, Sue and all of you for so rationally taking us through the morass of all this. It’s helped me understand it much better. I can even thank Neil for some of his misinformed comments, since their rebuttal has also clarified a lot of points!.

    It’s now pretty clear to me that Alan Joyce’s off shore ambitions for Qantas which are an assault on Australian jobs and standards led to an inevitable conflict with its workforce from pilots and engineer associations to baggage handlers and cleaners unions. That the Qantas board members, Australians all (including Peter Cosgrove!) should encourage him in his confrontational approach to industrial relations to the point of him sabotaging the national economy is astounding.

    It now seems that the Opposition has exploited this conflict, even colluded with Joyce, hoping to discredit the government and its Fair Work legislation, even perhaps to bring about an economic and political crisis which would bring Julia Gillard and her government down. .That amounts to near treason in my mind..

  110. The govt was warned that the fleet could be grounded many times.

    Joyce has just admitted to Xenophone that he had not expressed to the Government that this was an option.

    This could get interesting for Hockey 😉

  111. Patricia, as you explained your gay friends use the word f**gots. This reminds me of a former contributor Daphne, he had no hesitation in using such terms. You have a kind heart, keep up the good work.

  112. Thank you for the update Tom, I am attempting to listen to the Qantas Inquiry but cannot hear a scrap..currently suffering from bad acoustics, too much background noise and so my hearing ability plummets somewhat..sigh…

  113. “The govt was warned that the fleet could be grounded many times.

    Joyce has just admitted to Xenophone that he had not expressed to the Government that this was an option.”

    Well that is not what Joyce told the ABC.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-31/qantas-boss-never-warned-of-grounding3a-albanese/3610804

    “Transport Minister Anthony Albanese has angrily contradicted claims by Qantas boss Alan Joyce that he told the Federal Government “on multiple occasions” that he might ground the airline’s fleet.”

  114. Tom,
    so we have an honest admission from Joyce must be the first one in a long time.

    Patricia, I agree with others excellent poems.

  115. Apologies.. it was Daphon. It was Joni’s blog and Daphon used to use the Dorothy Wizard of Oz gravatar..great bloke. I wonder why Joni unfriended a certain person (not Daphon) on Facebook, oh wait a minute I do remember the reason why.

  116. Mr Joyce has said that he only told people he would ground the planes.

    He did not tell anyone he would have a lockout. No one was told there would be a lockout.

    Joyce alone made the decision for a lockout.

    It happened as Mr. Albanese said. The PM did not ignore warnings.

  117. “Mr Joyce has said that he only told people he would ground the planes.

    He did not tell anyone he would have a lockout. No one was told there would be a lockout. ”

    Yep that is what Albanese said. But it is a deceitful answer. What is the difference between grounding the planes and a lockout??

    Semantics.

    They were warned that the fleet could be grounded and it was.

  118. Tom R. Qantas could not have approached the FWA because the simple fact is that they did not have a case to get the protected industrial action lifted. They could not prove the dispute was accelerating. They could not prove that the unions were doing unreasonable harm. They could not prove the unions where not acting in good faith.

    Do I dare to say the it was not the unions that were not negotiating in good faith. It was Qantas the had no intention to come to a decision and where acting in bad faith. It was Qantas that was misleading the government. They did this by pretending the negotiations were on track and a solution was in view. The union showed there good faith by withdrawing proposed industrial action.

    Mr. Joyce had admitted planning was going on for weeks. He claimed the planning was to be used as a last resort.

    I, along with Senator Brown do not believe Mr. Joyce is credible.

    It appears the lockout was from 8 am Monday.

    He did not start the lockout at the same time as the grounding. He was not asked why.

    I will tell you why. He was goading the unions to walk out.

  119. “Joyce, it is true, had warned that flights may be grounded. The Unions had said the same. ‘

    Tom only too true.

    Both sides where making threats, The union could have used the arguments to walk out because of the threats being made by Qantas.

    The unions had withdrawn the threats towards the end of last week. Qantas then realise that if they did not come to a decision with the unions, the matter would end up at FWA.

    Qantas did not want this. Qantas want the matter transferred to the High Court. It is about crushing the unions, not coming to a settlement under the legal process in place, the FWA.

    it is said by many experts the Qantas would have won there.

    Six hours in seven months of a dispute going for over twelve months, can not by long stretch of the imagination serious.

    Mr, Joyce once again admitted that the FWA did not agree with his view as the amount of damaged caused.

    Joyce’s argument is based on what could happen. Nothing more.

  120. Senator said that Mr Joyce on the evidence given by him, had the right to approach FWA without grounding the fleet.

    Mr. Joyce saidhe could not do that, beccause FWA had told him that they have not gotten to the stage that damage was done.

    Senator Camerons argument is that once Mr. Joyce told FWA that they were closing the airline down. His only answer. he did not believe that.

  121. Tom R, he did not say he was. He said he threatened too. He did not discuss with anyone that he was grounding the fleet because he intended to lockout the workers.

  122. Neil, you clearly don’t understand the difference between grounding planes and a lock-out….being obtuse is your specialty.

  123. “might ground the airline’s fleet.”

    Neil, might is a long way from will.

    I might win the lottery. It is unlikley I will.

  124. Meeting between employers and union.

    Employer: you know if we continue this way, we might lock you out.

    Union: If you do not agree to our demands we will be continuing industrial action.

    Big deal, I am sure this is the norm during any negotiations. My bat is bigger than yours.

    The Senate hearing has not made the matter any clearer. Mr. Joyce needs to be bought back, with a session of unlimited time to answer questions, that this time he has avoided.

  125. It’s definitely getting wobbly for Joyce, that is of course, that the allegations are positively confirmed. I’ll be watching with interest.

  126. Mr. Joyce is getting hard to understand. His accent and a little mumbling is the cause. A slight stutter as well. He only has a couple of minutes to go.

    Min, that could be why you are having understanding.

  127. One senator asked why the pilots were not given, while in flight the reasons for grounding.

    He alleged that this was much more of a distraction than being told why.

  128. Min, this post might be nothing to see here.

    There was little to see at the senate hearing.

    What party does the chair belong to?

    Mr. Joyce needs to be bought back for a proper hearing.

  129. I understand the difference between grounding the planes and a lockout.

    If you ground the planes the airline shuts down.

    If you have a lockout the airline shuts down.

    Whats the difference??

    Albanese is being deceitful. He was warned many times that the fleet could be grounded. He just wasn’t told that employees would be locked out as well.

  130. Neil

    There is warning and there is warning. Giving 3 days warning as a Union is required is what I consider a warning.

    Giving 3 hours notice to totally ground a national ariline and our citizens all around the world is not a warning but rather a vindictive ultimatum.

    That is why I am angry. There are rules for unions to stop thuggery and there are no rules for Bosses to stop thuggery.

    I have a feeling that Alan Joyce is the scaegoat used by an anti union stacked board of bully boys intent on getting their own greedy way.

  131. Min, I just realise what Mr. Abbott sees his role as. He sees himself as roving advertisement for the business he turns up to each day.

    We would not know, these businesses exist, only for Mr. Abbott.

    It is wonderful, he is only interested in helping people.

    It is nice to know he is not in business to make money but to help people.

    It is only an coincidence that his product is getting full coverage.

    Same rot, leadership speculation means the government is not functioning. They should get on with governing’

    What is the PM doing overseas. Are there no bills going through parliament?

    Same lies. Nothing new.

  132. Neil

    Qantas grounded 5 planes during the dispute but the airline continued to operate other flights and take bookings so grounding planes does not close the airline down totally at all.

    Grounding every single plane or a lockout does and unless Qantas stated that it would be grounding all planes or locking out its workforce then there would have been no thought that managment would shut down their whole business out of spite as it is unheard of.

    You claim that we are on a witch hunt for the opposition yet you are doing exactly the same very thing against Albanese.

    As I have told you anyone of any political persuasion that had even a hint of when and what was truly going to happen and stayed silent should be removed from parliament. But it needs to ensure that they truly knew and not he said she said or that there was siomply a threat.

  133. ” have a feeling that Alan Joyce is the scapegoat used by an anti union stacked board of bully boys intent on getting their own greedy way.

    Spot on. Why did Mr. Joyce spend so much time and effort saying it was his choice alone?

    Why did he call a board meeting when this is so. Mr, Joyce said he can spend up to 20 million to buy anything. He has unlimited money to do anything he likes in the IR field.

  134. Joyce took industrial action. He must have, because he shut down a large industry, didn’t he? Unions are required by law to give 72 hours notice of their actions, why not Joyce?
    His defenders remind me of the psychopathic wifebeater’s line “see what ya’ve made me do NOW ya bitch!!!”

  135. CU

    I believed he was the bully boy for the anti union thuggery board and he will be rewarded handsomely even if he is to retire from Qantas. Better for one to go and be rewarded well than for the whole board to look bad.

  136. Unlimited money in the IR field to screw the workers but the same company cannot afford to negotiate with workers but can afford to compensate passengers and give payrises to management even after a 52% fall in shareholder wealth.

  137. CU, I believe that Abbott turned up the day after the Qantas strike at some poor unsuspecting factory..it might have been a chook factory, knife in hand saying Everyone look at me. It didn’t work….

    And before others elsewhere claim that I have it in for chook factories, I used to work for Marven Poultry.

  138. WTF

    News 24 have a spokesperson from the IPA on at the same time as the TWU

    so a talking head instead of senate comm

  139. It is about time Qantas solved it engine problems. Have been going on too long. ABC24. Maybe the Mr. Joyce should focus on running the business, not destroying it.

    I have not heard of other airlines having similar problems.

  140. Funny thing, the Qantas spokeswoman commenting on the current aircraft engine problem is giving the most comprehensive and detailed report in such breakneck speed to the media compared to the usual head in the sand for hours on end attitude.

    Wonder if this is because of the way the brand is totally on the nose after their disgraceful antics.

  141. The interview is being made at Parliament House. I did notice the lady making the announcement, approached Joyce during he hearing. No wonder he was stuttering.

  142. Sue, it is OK, I am recording ABC24 to look at later. Choose the hearing. I am sure the othe will be repeated.

  143. Another aspect.

    “…This dispute has been protracted and hard fought because Qantas is seeking to make significant changes to its operations through the enterprise bargaining process, including sending some functions offshore. These changes hold profound implications for the airline’s workforce, and neither side in the dispute has been prepared to make concessions on certain aspects of the airline’s plans.

    The right of employees, unions and employers to take protected industrial action in support of their position in bargaining disputes has been a feature of federal workplace laws since 1993. Another constant feature has been the ability of parties affected by harmful disputes to seek orders from the federal tribunal to end protected industrial action.

    Advertisement: Story continues below To do this, Fair Work Australia must be satisfied that the dispute is either endangering the community (for example, a dispute affecting hospitals or emergency services), or that the industrial action is threatening an important part of the Australian economy.

    Relying on this latter ground, the federal government called on Fair Work Australia to end the right of all parties to the dispute to take protected industrial action, so that the unions’ right to implement work stoppages (which have been used very effectively in recent months) would come to an end – and Qantas would not be able to proceed with its employee lockout.

    The protected action taken by unions in support of enterprise bargaining, while hurting Qantas, was not significant enough to trigger these provisions of the Fair Work Act. It was only the threatened lockout by Qantas that made the government’s application viable.

    A feature of recent events has been Qantas’s decision not to utilise the legal framework to its advantage. The statement by the Qantas CEO, Alan Joyce, that the company had no other option to resolve this dispute than to ground its fleet and lock out employees is not technically correct….”

    http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/politics/fair-work-gets-a-fair-play-in-airline-war-20111031-1ms5r.html

  144. “Fair Work Australia noted in its decision that it did not believe the protected action taken by the unions met the ”significant damage to the economy” requirement, so something more significant was required to trigger the tribunal’s powers – hence the action taken by Qantas.

    Tactically, the airline seems to have decided it would be better to have the government make the application. One might presume Qantas feared a direct approach to Fair Work Australia would have been construed as conceding defeat in its battle with unions by saying: ”Please end the unions’ protected action because the airline is bleeding”…..”

    http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/politics/fair-work-gets-a-fair-play-in-airline-war-20111031-1ms5r.html

  145. Bad, Bad, Bad TWU you have negotiated 258 agreements this year and you so terribly took industrial action over 3 and settled 255 without any action whatsoever.

    You have a terrible reputation.

  146. “Giving 3 hours notice to totally ground a national ariline and our citizens all around the world is not a warning but rather a vindictive ultimatum.”

    What has Hockey got to do with this??? The point of TomR’s post if you bothered to read it was that Hockey knew all about this and did not tell anybody.

    “The question mark got bigger when hockey went on 7.30 with Leigh Sales to declare that “he was told by Qantas well before Saturday that it was planning to ground its aircraft.” Perhaps he should have passed this information on to yabot before he had booked his flights.”

    Not only are ALP supporters masters of the diversion they are masters of the slur.

  147. The Senate “interview ” with Joyce has finished. Joyce has to return. Good. Cameron was all over him, and his inconsistencies. Brown also did a great job. Abetz asked purely politically driven questions (no surprise there), while Bill Heffernan boycotted it because he believed it would be party political!!! Speaking of inconsistencies…..

    I missed most of it, only saw the last hour. Can anyone report on the earlier part, or give us their observations in general?

  148. Roswell, you miss nothing. The questioning was even weaker.

    Abetz seems to be respectful when interviewing the union respresentive. That is unusual, would I say rare for the man. The unions are doing well.

  149. Roswell

    Your post made me smile.

    When the good guys ask the questions they are doing a great job.

    When the bad guys (Abetz) ask the questions they are party political.

    Too funny

  150. Neil, it is the Senate, a house of parliament. It is a funny thing, that is where workers are politicians.

    Parliament, I am sorry to inform you Neil, are run by politicians.

    It is a shame but this dispute is more about politics than industrial disputes.

    I hope we do not live in a country where property and employers rights are above human and workers rights.

  151. The point of TomR’s post if you bothered to read it was that Hockey knew all about this and did not tell anybody.

    The point of thispost was that, as soon as Hockey came out with this revelation, the media lost interest.

  152. Is this what it is more about?

    “Qantas boss Alan Joyce has told a parliamentary inquiry that proposed legislative changes would limit the airline’s plans to expand into Asia and as a result would cost jobs.

    The Senate’s transport committee is examining a bill, sponsored by independent senator Nick Xenophon and the Australian Green’s leader Bob Brown, which would ensure Qantas maintained its principal operational centre in Australia.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-will-always-call-australia-home-joyce-20111104-1mykr.html#ixzz1chJnERsv

  153. Tom R, the problem for Mr. Hockey is that he knew nothing. All he had was rumours, not unlike the one that Mr. Rudd is challenging the PM.

    Probabably as true as the rumour that the Queen is divorcing her consort.

    Rumours are NOT fact, even if it as Mr. Swan believes, we live in a post fact world.

  154. Neil

    So you never ever comment other than what the Blog story is all about initially ?

    ROFL

    I am making my comments regarding this disgusting episode and so are you. I want to know what every politcian knew not just Joe Hockey, but you seem to have a fixation on Joe yet I have not singled him out personally at all.

  155. “but you seem to have a fixation on Joe yet I have not singled him out personally at all.”

    No but TomR has as well as the rest of the Opposition. This is the topic of the post. Alleged collusion between Hockey and Qantas most probably mediated by Murdoch.

    “Even though, the fact that opposition members were aware of an imminent grounding (even though there was no more industrial action, except for pilots wearing red ties), and allowed tens of thousands of people to become stranded. Not one iota of light has been shone on this murky subject.”

  156. Neil

    “No but TomR has as well as the rest of the Opposition”. Then direct your questions to TomR.

    Joe Hockey created the doubts himself when he answered a question by saying yes they knew there were threats without clarifying the comment at the time. The same as Tony Abbott was unable to answer the same question when originally asked.

    Joe has clarified his statement and I actually believe him. I think Joe is an honest politcian and that was why he answered the question the way he did at the time.

    I do not think the same of Tony Abbott or many other opposition members or the Qantas Board.

  157. Tony Abbott has just one birthday wish – a new government. Mr Abbott celebrated his 54th birthday on Friday by meeting a small business owner in Melbourne’s east. Asked if he had a special wish for his birthday, he said: “I would like to see a better government in this country. We are a great country with a lousy government and I think that the best present that anyone could give Australia right now is to change government, and that’s what I’m working to bring about every single day.” – What a transparently dishonest, manipulative narcissistic nob!

  158. Did I hear right, that Qantas will be not hiring anyone else under award agreements. They will be outsourcing.

    This was one of the unions disagreements. This is what the lack of security they were concerned about.

    Wages and conditions.

    Main issue. Issue of outsourcing.

    Now Pilots are appearing. Talking about Labour Hire.

    That is the extreme concerns of the workers and unions.

  159. CU

    Yes you did hear correct, and they wonder why the unions and workers are up in arms with no trust in their employer.

    I vote we outsource the board overseas and use the saved money to keep working jobs in Australia. Afterall the board are simply overpaid employees who can only achieve results with outsourcing and job shedding.

  160. Catching up,
    I think that you are right in your comment of 12.34pm. With Qantas it was all about politically manouvering and no concern about the public whatsoever.

  161. Roswell

    They are only refunding the public to the extent they are because the ACCC growled at them.

    How would you refund a citizen it they had been taken hostage or attacked in another country because they could not board their flight to leave a certain country and had no money for accommodation or could not find accommodation with only 3 hours notice.

    It is just sheer luck that something like this did not eventuate.

    Concern for the public would have been to give 3 days notice, exactly the same requirement as a union. Nothing less.

  162. I notice those terrible International Pilots are wearing those red ties which have cost Qantas millions by taking such horrendous action as having the gall to wear them while flying.

  163. Neil, you might be interested in Alan Joyce’s performance before the Senate Committee. Despite Erica’s best efforts he now says he made the decision all by his baby self. I’ve lost count-how many versions is this?

    http://www.thepowerindex.com.au/power-move/joyce-earns-his-$5-million/20111104667?utm_source=The+Power+Index&utm_campaign=14b10c98d8-The_Power_Daily_4_Nov_2011&utm_medium=email

    They should have tried harder to get Albanese to admit what he actually knew

    Perhaps they should have tried harder to get Sloppy to admit what he actually knew; Alan Joyce has confirmed that Albo’s story is right.

    Min @7.19am, exactly. This was a matter of national importance and Sloppy had a duty to advise the Minister and the Parliament.

    I might win the lottery. It is unlikley I will.

    Excellent analogy, CU.

    @12.58pm, Sloppy says he heard rumours, but is that true, or did he and Liealot fail to synchronise their stories?

    What with Alan Joyce changing his version of events multiple times, Sloppy’s eleventh hour rumour mill, which apparently, he was the only one privy to and Liealot doing the rabbit in the headlights schtick, will we ever get to the bottom of what Joyce, Sloppy and Liealot really did know?

    I think their tangled web is now so hopelessly tangled that none of the three players knows what they knew, what they Know or should have known, even if they took a chainsaw to it. lol

  164. Roswell
    the first questioner was xenophone, he went to the money and the annual reports Joyce got redder and redder as the questioning continued.

  165. With the TWU there was going to be evidence under camera. Did any one hear about that? TWU had signed witness statements

  166. The engineers are giving examples of the same thing.

    Qantas on the evidence that is been given intends to destroy the Qantas workforce completely.

    New word, critical mass.

    The engineer has raised the issue of today’s incident.

    He is amaze that Qantas can walk out the door and say that the incident is not related to the near disaster last year. He said this is impossible to say.

    He is hinting, if the engines were maintained in Australia, it may have been identified sooner.

    Necessary work is not being undertaking in Australia because Qantas has shut down the facilities.

    Interesting committee hearing.

  167. I am hearing extremely disturbing comments regarding engine failure due to Qantas shutting down its operation in Australia and now waiting for slots overseas to have modifications done to engines with only 24% completed.

  168. Shane, no need to apologize. It is nice to see others with the same concerns. I wonder if we are going to see much of what is been said at the hearings now. I suppose not, but if the engineer is 1% right, I would not be boarding the planes.

  169. Shane, it is definitely worrying.

    No matter how the Opposition tries to spin what has been said. It has now become a regular thing for engine problems in planes that are forcing planes to land.

    There is a problem with the maintenance.

    I have not heard of Virgin or other airlines having similar problems.

  170. Q. What do you do with a elephant with three balls?
    A. Walk him, and pitch to the rhino.

    If Hockey was a baseball player it would be said “He took one for the team” This happens when the batter deliberately gets himself hit by the ball and he is the awarded first base. Its a tactic used by a desperate team, as a last resort when things are going bad.
    In the Liberal party case, it is intended to limit damage after it became obvious that they had been caught out in the Qantas dispute.

  171. Luna, any leader would have the political nous not to put themselves in the position that Mr. Abbott put him self in.

    The problem is that Mr. Abbott believes that the PM and Labor are as bad he imagines them to be. The pity for the man, it is only in his imagination.

  172. it is intended to limit damage after it became obvious that they had been caught out in the Qantas dispute.

    Imagine the damage if any sort of media attention had been placed on them. You know, even a tiny bit like the over the top analysis done on the Government on a daily basis (most often than not unfounded)

  173. I just came in at the end of a media comment by the TWU. I think they are stating a company that is outsourced to Qantas received an email from Qantas a week before the shutdown. Is this right or have I just came in on the end and got it all wrong ?

  174. Jane

    What are you on about. The govt was warned multiple times that there could be a shut down. These were the rumours Hockey was talking about.

    Albanese was told that there could be a shut down.

    he was very deceitful by claiming that he was not told there would be a lock out as well. He is trying to divert the issue.

    No-one new about the lock out except Joyce but Albanese was told the planes could be grounded.

    We need to know what Albanese was told.

  175. It appears that the problem is now Mr. Howard AWAs that are coming to a end.

    Cameron asked for comparison between an AWA and EBA.

    Jet Star WAs are about to expire.

    If they want a collective agreement, the FA have to fly domestically as well internationally.

    I must say that Qnatas has happy and contented workers.

  176. Oh dear, might Joyce be in a spot of bother… So let’s assess this situation – Qantas hadn’t even been able to manage to advise it’s own booking staff about the lockout, yet the PM is somehow supposed to ‘know’. Something doesn’t quite compute does it.

    Mr Joyce admitted it was “a mistake” to continue taking flight bookings from customers after the fleet was grounded.

    Online bookings were stopped at 8.30pm (AEDT) on Saturday – more than three hours after the grounding – when management realised its website had not been taken down.

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/my-decision-absolutely-joyce-takes-responsibility-for-qantas-grounding-as-he-hits-out-at-proposed-bill-20111104-1myle.html#ixzz1ci0FWH98

  177. “I just came in at the end of a media comment by the TWU. I think they are stating a company that is outsourced to Qantas received an email from Qantas a week before the shutdown. Is this right or have I just came in on the end and got it all wrong ?”

    It is correct and although known for some time it’s something the media have avoided.

  178. shanein qld
    you heard right and that must be the in camera evidence

    the union has 4 examples or 4 witness different statements

  179. Min

    all that contnigency planning and they simply forgot to stop the bit that takes the money.

    amazing all that planning and that was the only mistake

  180. Neil, it is clear that there were threats of a shut down. There where rumours of a shut down.

    Mr. Joyce has made it clear today, that no one was told before shut down the fleet.

    I might hit you is not the same as I will hit you. Sorry, threat does not mean I am going to do it.

    Neil, instead of not picking here, why not spend some time tuning into the senate enquiries. Neil, if you do this, you mighr have something new to say. Neil, you might also have some of your questions answered.

    http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/eventdetails.aspx?eventid=2237271

  181. Roswell,
    The same thing here. Unfortunately I was in a meeting this afternoon and so didn’t get to hear the latest. So far it seems that Joyce is accepting responsibility, he made the call for the airline to be grounded.

  182. Has anyone travelled Jet Star. Wasn’t there a TV show, sending the airline up.

    Cameron has told the whistle blowers that they cannot be harmed. They did not seem to believe him. They have put their jobs on the line to give evidence.

    One said most air staff would rather work for Virgins. One said that most people who support AWA’s are not on them.

  183. “Mr. Joyce has made it clear today, that no one was told before shut down the fleet.”

    Yes but Albanese was warned and as it turns out it was not a threat. Joyce actually did shut down the airline.

    Not sure what your point is other than to defend Albanese to the death.

  184. Neil, are you real.

    In hindsight it turned out to be real, therefore Mr. Albanese should have taken the maybe

    Mr. Albanese was also led to believe up to Wednesday that there was progress being made in the negotiations.

    He should have ignored what he was told was fact.

    In hindsight, therefore should have ignored what he was told as fact.

  185. Neil, it is still true what I said earlier.

    It is immaterial whether the PM thought there was to be a grounding of the fleet. It is immaterial who was told it might happen.

    The PM was not in an position to act until she was told. The government

    It is time to move on.

  186. Neil

    If Mr Joyce has made it clear that no one was told before the shutdown. Why is there apparently an email to a contractor of Qantas advising different ?

    You are acting like a broken record with this defend Albanese to the death. I do hope that if things turn out differently at it is found that people did know, you will acknowledge that others were aware of the tactics before they unfolded.

  187. “Mr. Albanese was also led to believe up to Wednesday that there was progress being made in the negotiations.”

    Still cannot work out why your defending Albanese. If it was a Howard govt in charge you lot would be saying that Howard should have acted sooner.

    “Mr Albanese was lead to believe”- how do you know??

    maybe you are right. The rumor I heard was that the Union was not going to cause trouble over the weekend due to the number of Melbourne Cup tourists.

    So the govt was certainly talking to the Unions as well as Joyce.

    Remember this purpose of this thread is to discuss the dasterdly Hockey who new about the coming lock down and did nothing.

    “the fact that opposition members were aware of an imminent grounding (even though there was no more industrial action, except for pilots wearing red ties), and allowed tens of thousands of people to become stranded.”

    So Hockey is responsible for people being stranded according to TomR.

  188. Neil

    If the “levy For Everything Government” was still in government Qantas would have already gone offshore and outsourced all of its pilots and crew to low cost asian countries. the onlt thing visible as Qantas would be the flying Kangaroo Tail.

    If Hockey did know then yes he is reponsible but you already know that I believe him when he said he did not know.

    Mr Albanese is being defended because he was led to believe negotiations, not lockouts were being progressed. He has stated this exact fact if you cared to listen to what he had to say.

    If the opposition knew that the action being taken by Alan Joyce would result in our citizens being stranded in foreign countries then yes they are responsible. It is yet to be proven or determined who knew what, but I would tend to believe that business would discuss its options with the side of politics that fully supports it. Just as you would expect a union to discuss options with the ALP and not the Liberal Party.

  189. Well Neil, this is what Mr. Albanese said. It has not been denied by Mr. Joyce as far as I know.

    It does not matter.

    THESE ONCE AGAIN APPEAR TO BE THE INCONVENIENT FACTS

    The PM had to wait until the dispute accelerated.

    This occurs when further action is taken by one of parties.

    This occurred at 2pm on Saturday. The matter was in the courts by nightfall.

    The matter was bought to and end at 2am Monday morning. The planes were back in the air later that day.

    Mr, Joyce has had no criticism of Mr. Albanese. Mr. Joyce has not challenged what Mr. Albanese has said.

    Why then should you, Neil.

  190. Neil, you’ve said it yourself quote: The rumor I heard was that the Union was not going to cause trouble over the weekend due to the number of Melbourne Cup tourists.

    Exactly, so why did Alan Joyce decide to.

  191. “maybe you are right. The rumor I heard was that the Union was not going to cause trouble over the weekend due to the number of Melbourne Cup tourists.”

    Yes, Neil but you are leaving the part out that the unions denied this was going to happen.

    The unions went further and put any actions on hold, while the discussions were processing as they were.

    It is called good faith bargaining. It appears that Qantas, in hindsight, had no intention of bargaining in good faith.

    It is not a matter of defending Mr. Albanese.

    It is sticking to what we believe to be facts.

  192. First I heard a rumour that Joe Hockey is going to challenge Tony Abbott for the Liberal leadership by the end of the year, but then I heard from someone who is friends with some of the Liberal Party lightweights, but the clincher being that one of those lightweights is actually friends with a Liberal Party shadow minister who says hello to Hockey everyday, that this rumour was true.

    Hockey is going to challenge Abbott for the leadership. That both are denying it, well more accurately not saying anything about it, proves this to be true.

  193. “If Hockey did know then yes he is reponsible but you already know that I believe him when he said he did not know.”

    That’s not quite what Hockey said said.

    Initially he told parliament that he heard weeks agao Qantas was considering grounding the fleet, but when challenged on who told him he stated he couldn’t recall.

    At another time he said everyone knew before hand that Qantas was going to ground the fleet.

  194. Has anyone ask Mr Hockey why Qantas was haunting the corridors of Parliament House for weeks.

    I assume they were seeking the support of the Coalition.

    Mr. Brown said no one from Qantas spoke to him.

    Mr. Joyce told Senator Brown, that someone spoke to one Green MP. Mr. Joyce did not say who.

    I suggest Qantas was there to get support from Mr. Abbott.

    I suggest they were successful.

  195. ME

    I am aware of what Joe Hockey said and this morning he emphtically denied knowing that Qantas was going to lockdown the airline. I believe him. I don’t believe many coalition MPs but I do believe Joe.

    However I just picked up on something interesting.

    Alan Joyce was asked why did Qantas continue to sell tickets after the lockout and he said this was a mistake and oversight which can happen when you are planning for this type of event, or words to this effect. Just how long had they been plannning ?

  196. ME, you have heard the wrong rumour. It is said that the Bishop, Bronwyn, that is, has renewed her push for Shadow PM.

    The bishop claimed that she held rank over a abbot.

  197. “I suggest they were successful.”

    Go on suggesting its all you have got.

    And Cu you may not know this but Abbott is not in govt. Abbot has no power to give Qantas any support.

    Abbott has stated he would have used the powers under the FWA act (section 431) on Saturday afternoon

  198. Neil

    Abbott has every power to give support to Qantas. Being in government is irrelevant in seeking support from a political party to lockout employees and shut down a company.

    Qantas is a private company and nothing to do with the government.

  199. And for someone who isn’t in government he certainly is acting like he is the government by demanding they always do what he wants them to.

    Shane then what was with Hockey’s statements of him hearing weeks ago Qantas was considering grounding down the fleet, but he couldn’t recall who told him that, and then his other statement that everyone knew Qantas was going to ground the fleet before it did it?

  200. How the hell could Abbott support Qantas in locking out employees?? he has no power.

    He has stated he would have acted on Saturday afternoon if in govt and there would have been no lock down.

    Somehow you people keep turning and diverting this dispute back to Abbott and the Coalition.

    the ALP must love supporters like you people.

  201. Neil, I think you are pulling our leg.

    I seen an interview with Mr. Abetz that gave me the oppression he believed he has the power to influence the matter.

    You are not saying, Mr. Hockey cannot stand up in parliament and push Qantas case.

    You are saying it was coincidence that Mr. Abbott and two premiers on the same day, when nothing had changed, came out with the demand that the PM take ministerial action to lift the protected IR action.

    Mr. Abbott supported Qantas and only Qantas before and after the grounding of the fleet.

    Mr. Abbott has NOT uttered one word of support for the workers,

    Neil, do you believe in fairies?

  202. Because that is what the post is about.

    It is what some want to know.

    What part did the Opposition play in recent events.

    There are too many unanswered questions.

    Now, that might not concern you, that is OK.

    It is that some do not trust Mr. Abbott and co.

    Are you saying we have no right to ask.

    Sorry Neil.

  203. Uh oh CU, you could get into deep poo with the blog police for using that word ‘fairies’. I am assuming that you mean of the elven kind 😉

  204. I am politely suggesting that Nil read the following …..two or three times, then…put this in his pipe and smoke it !
    Nil should then be aware that his trolling is not working, The truth is out.

    Up, Up and Awry!
    http://ashghebranious.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/up-up-and-awry/

    The debate of who knew what was designed to take away from the fact that someone actually did do something. That is the FWA were petitioned and heard the case on behalf of the government and ruled that industrial action has to come to a close at the workplace.

  205. ME

    I think what Hockey meant was the way Qantas was taking planes out of the sky one by one when he meant grounding planes I don’t think he thought they meant the whole fleet when they said planes because neither did I.

  206. Then perhaps he should have clarified his remarks like Albanese did. Instead, he said this was no surprise. Sorry, it was a huge surprise, to everyone, except joyce himself, and, from what Hockey said, also himself.

    Now I find that curious. Or inept on the part of hockey

  207. From Ash’s blog… re grounding planes….

    Because it seems, in later testimony by unions and engineers, Qantas had very good reason to ground its fleet. The representative of the engineers union mentioned that of the 5 planes Qantas had originally ‘grounded’ in the week leading up to the lock out, 4 were scheduled for disposal. One was listed as for sale since March of 2011. Of the 5 planes, all were in need of MAJOR service. And in business speak, MAJOR service cost MAJOR bucks. So by grounding 5 planes that could not fly anyway, Qantas attempted to deceive the public that it was the problem of unions when it was a concerted and deliberate falsehood.

  208. shaneinqld
    it was interesting listening to the engineers union. at one stage they were discussing the “grounded’ planes, grounded because of union action.
    a number of the planes were actually grounded for their scheduled maintenance.
    one plane was advertised for sale, advertised in an industry magazine, the union has the evidence and was to present it to the committee. the union then went on to discuss the other “grounded” due to industrial action planes.

    the union was invited back to give more evidence.

    and anyone don’t bother saying all planes look alike they have the identification and registration of the planes

  209. This is just a thought. I wonder how many of the outsourcing firms are going to be subsidiaries of Qantas. Maybe subsidiaries of subsidiaries.

    Outsourcing is a way to by-pass the IR laws.

  210. Pip and Sue

    I agree but I was referring to what Joe Hockey thought they meant and what I thought they meant, not what the reality was.

    TomR

    He said he meant that he thought they were talking about grounding planes on an accruing basis not all at once and to be honest that is what I thought they meant as well. That was until their desicable act.

  211. You really know you have hit on something sensitive when Nil has spent so much effort telling you that you are stupid over Hockey and btw look over here.
    well done cafe patrons. hip hip hooray
    or cheers drink up

  212. Why was Mr. Joyce not asked what appointment could be more important than the senate hearing.

    Why was he not asked why he did not keep his diary clear for the day. I believe he should have been force to stay.

    He should have made him to come back after other parties were heard.

  213. PS I believe this hearing was scheduled before the grounding of the planes.

    Was Mr Joyce afraid of what was coming, adding to his decision to up the ante.

  214. This statement cannot be true as today Alan Joyce said Qantas regularly booked thousands of hotel rooms. Asked if this was done each Friday, as in last weekend, he said or mumbled I will get back to you.
    So Stephen Fry do not worry Alan will look after you

    “Fry posted a letter from the airline to his 3.3 million Twitter followers, in which Qantas apologised for the incident. However, the airline said it was having difficulty finding seats on alternative carriers for the passengers due to full planes, as well being unable to find hotel rooms for the passengers due to the Eid Al Adha public holiday in Dubai.”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/stephen-fry-stuck-as-qantas-a380-superjumbo-forced-to-shut-down-engine-20111104-1mz06.html#ixzz1cjCwdqh9

  215. CU

    Do not worry Cameron wants to study Hansard to look for the anomalies before he continues with his questions.
    Joyce suggested that they could give him questions on notice. But Cameron explained how that would not work and as he had not been given time to fully question him. Joyce did agree to come back.
    Other Senators had questions as well including more from Xenophone.

    The committee asked for the parties in the other times to come back and answer further questions.

    so we will just have to wait for the new date.

  216. CU
    Yes this committee was actually about the QANTAS ACT and had been convened by Xenophone then Joyce stepped in and the rest is history

  217. Sorry Shane but according to Eleanor Hall of the ABC Hockey’s words were (my bold):

    The shadow treasurer Joe Hockey is under scrutiny today for telling ABC’s 7.30 last night that he heard “weeks ago” that Qantas was considering grounding its fleet.

    He now says he can’t recall specifically who told him.

    He didn’t say grounded planes, he said “fleet”, and he said he couldn’t remember who told him that they are considering grounding the “fleet”. A fleet has never been a handful of cars, planes or ships and a grounding of a fleet is not shutting down a few accruing over time, it is the intention to shutdown all of your assets in a short time.

  218. Oh and on top of that Hockey said everyone knew.

    While the government maintained yesterday it had no prior knowledge of the plan by Qantas to ground its fleet and lock out its workforce, it leapt on an admission by the shadow treasurer, Joe Hockey, that he knew ”weeks ago”. ”[Qantas has] been saying it around Parliament House for the last few weeks. Everyone in Parliament House knew,” Mr Hockey told the ABC’s 7.30 Report.

    That was not in relation to an accrual of planes being grounded but in direct response to the grounding of an entire fleet and locking out workers.

  219. Everyone knew and it had been around parliament for weeks, everyone knew except for the parliamentary press gallery.
    So that just shows Joe is a LIAR because if everyone knew, he would have told Tony, Tony would have told the press, and the press would have said to the government

    TONY ABBOTT SAYS QANTAS IS GOING TO GROUND THE FLEET

  220. “Everyone knew and it had been around parliament for weeks, everyone knew except for the parliamentary press gallery.”

    Joyce has stated that he told govt ministers many times that the Qantas fleet may be grounded.

    Someone should ask Albanese under oath what Joyce told him.

    Albanese was being deceitful when he said that he was not told there would be a lock out.

    maybe so but what was Albanese told??

  221. “Tony would have told the press, and the press would have said to the government”

    You know Sue you would make a good writer of fairy tales.

    Albanese was told. Why would a govt minister blab to the press about something which might or might not happen.

  222. Do not mention fairy tales.
    But it was a good line
    TONY ABBOTT SAYS
    and so much more fun than the look over here twaddle

  223. Too bad he never said that.

    Why didn’t Albanese warn people that Qantas was going to ground the fleet since he was told it could happen by Joyce.

    Albanese had official meetings with Joyce. He has stated that he was never told that there would be a lock out. So they had meetings.

  224. Now I was wondering about some of the evidence today as
    “Evidence taken in camera, although recorded by Hansard, is not made available to anyone but members of the committee and the witness concerned.”
    So is there any investigative journalists, anyone keen to track down a story, they have had a week but so far all that has been found is ……a way to get out of Perth.

  225. I think this post by TomR should get first prize in the “look over there” awards.

    Well done TomR for diverting attention from the failures of the govt to the people who are not in govt.

    You are serving your Lords and Masters well TomR

  226. I have to post a comment in response to the lies that are being spread by reb, and in particular ToM. There have been constant malicious attacks on people and I’m only posting in an effort that their behaviour will stop. They are succeeding in destroying people. Sadly, they are thoroughly enjoying it.

    In an effort to stop the lies I posted this at Spray of the Day. Naturally, ToM spun his usual bullshit. I will say publicly that he is probably the most destructive person I have ever met. This is an email I sent out explaining the origins of Café Whispers. Reb has been referring to this email in his repeated efforts to throw abuse at Patricia, Pip, Cu, Jane, Min and Sue.

    ToM may not believe the email, but reb received a copy. To deny it will place him in the same basket as ToM: an habitual liar.

    Goodbye.

    Sent: Monday, 29 November 2010 9:13 PM
    To: Min; ‘joni’; ‘nasking’; ‘reb’
    Subject: I’ve had enough

    Hi all,

    Reb, I’m including you in this email because I feel you should know what I want to say. I know that I’m taking a bit of a risk including you, given your public outbursts against me, but what the heck, I’ll take it anyway.

    This evening I went into the Dashboard of Australian Blog Sites and noticed a couple of comments in the Spam folder from ToM. One of these distressed me. I’ve had enough of the constant harassment he has directed at me, so I will now do four things in response.

    Firstly, I will repeat the truth of the story about Café Whispers, which has already been told to ToM, but he refuses to believe it.

    CW was originally set up in Facebook (last February) for friends and relatives who belong to a minority group, namely gay people or those with a depression. It was a closed group, ie, only members could get access. At the same time I set up CW in WordPress, with the intention that the CW Facebook group have their own blog site in the future.

    Four months later joni put Blogocrats into recess, which was expected to last for a month. So that the Blogocrat bloggers could have a place to go, apart from Gutter Trash, I offered CW as an interim site. Email addresses were obtained from Blogocrats without approval – although I am 100% confident that approval would be given – and to protect people I said that the addresses came from GT. Everybody here, but you reb, knows that the addresses came from Blogocrats, but I told a lie when I said they were from GT. Two addresses had been obtained from GT, but I had been emailing those people on a social basis for some time. They do not blog at the Café, btw. Some other addresses were obtained from Facebook, where the bloggers are in my Friend’s group. It’s just a pity that Walrus was posting at Blogocrats under an alias, and he received the email about CW and started a war over it.

    I also made sure that the regulars at GT weren’t emailed about CW, so not to create any animosity. LOL that started its own problems because some people were upset that they weren’t invited to the Café.

    If CW was intended to be around for a long time I wouldn’t have invited people because they would have found their way to it eventually. But as it was only going to be a short-term place for bloggers it was necessary to alert them of its existence.

    Reb, you can dismiss the above if you want, but there are people here who can back my story up. If you think I’m lying, then you can call us all a liar.

    Secondly, I’m placing our first ban at the Café. You guess it; ToM. I’ve had enough of his attacks and I don’t need to put up with them any longer. Whilst he doesn’t have the guts to attack me at the Café, he attacks me at a couple of other sites and I’m so totally over it. If he were telling the truth about me then I’d wear it on the chin. But he continues with the lie and threatens to ruin CW and ABSites. I don’t need this. Why does he do it? People at GT stick up for him but they aren’t the ones who receive threats all the time.

    ToM and I used to email each other, which admittedly, I instigated. Then his threats started, not only via the blogs, but via emails to me. Again, why does he do it? What sick thrill does he get out of this?

    Thirdly, all new bloggers will be placed in moderation, as I’d expect that ToM would set up a gmail or Yahoo email account. For that reason, any new blogger with a gmail or Yahoo address will not be approved.

    Lastly, I will post a thread on the Café exposing ToM’s threats and explaining why he has been banned. However, I will not allow him any oxygen. He can kick and squeal elsewhere. This last piece of action might cause a bit of trouble, so I want to run it past you all first. Please keep in mind that I am at the edge of despair at what this man is doing to me. I’m an honest person whose intentions have always been good. He is trying to ruin me. He is trying to destroy me. He is trying to destroy my sites: sites that deliver a lot of pleasure and a lot of fun and a lot of knowledge to a lot of people.

    A couple of weeks ago I nearly walked away from CW, but why should I? It’s time I stood up for myself. I have always believed that good people win in the end, and that honest people win in the end. This bastard will not destroy me.

    Well he has. And others too.

    May he rot in hell.

    PS – you can see ToM’s response over at Spray of the Day. Please do go have a look. See him for the sick individual that he is.

  227. And I added the following: ToM, today’s comment from your boss Reb “Today it’s Mindless geriatric fucks that they are…..” Ho ho tres amusement. What do they call it..the cut and thrust of vigorous debate. I personally would label it being an abusive prick.

    Migs, Karma is about to come and get them.

  228. Yes, Neil, everyone knew. It was over the front of all the newspapers, TV and radio news. We just all missed it. Mr. Albanese is a big liar, in spite of the fact, Mr Joyce agrees with what he said.

    SEMATICS: Is necessary in this matter, because that is what if seems to be about, when one listens to Mr. Joyce.

    My view on what Mr. Joyce said to day and reading between the lines.

    Mr.Joyce had decided to lockout the workers and had been planning for weeks.

    I do not believe the letters could be printed and delivered by carriers in such a short time frame on a Saturday to 30,000 workers.

    What had not been decided when it would occur.

    This is the decision that was made on Saturday morning.

    Mr. Joyce had no interest in negotiating in good faith. He deliberately deceive the government.

    Mr. Joyce was subtly provoking the unions, in the belief they would up the ante and walk out.

    Pressure was put on the PM to intervene, with the aim of raising the heat.

    Neither the unions or PM came to the party. Mr. Joyce then had no option to get the result he wanted, grounded the planes. He was still hoping this would force the workers to walk out.

    Pressure was applied by Mr. Abbott and the states for the PM to give a ministerial direction to lift the IR protection. This did not happen. The PM used the alternative option she had. The PM sort action in the FWA.

    The Opposition did know what was planned and gave their support. I would be surprised if the likes of Abbott and Hockey knew the full facts.

    This would account for their confusion when questioned.

    I am not too sure what role or knowledge that Mr.Abetz had. The senator was unusually mild in his questioning of all today. It is not this man’s style. His questioning of Mr. Joyce was as if he was asking scripted questions.

    The aim of Mr. Joyce and his board is to destroy both the unions and FWA.

    Contrary to news reports, Mr. Joyce was given a easy ride by senate standards.

    Facing a senate committee for most is not a pleasant experience.

    The question that Mr. Joyce needs to be asked. What did you actually decide on Saturday morning? When did you decide a lockout was necessary?

  229. Hi Miglo

    i have never been to gutter trash and never will. something about the name i suppose. likewise the name cafe whispers sounded inviting. it has been it is and most of the guests are fun.
    thanks for the history about the cafe, i hope it stays open, i hope you can drop by.

    oh and just heard senator cameron, the committee meeting reconvenes in 3 weeks

  230. “Albanese was being deceitful when he said that he was not told there would be a lock out.

    maybe so but what was Albanese told??”

    Problem with this, that Mr. Joyce said under oath today that NO ONE knew about a lock out. He said he told no one. Now maybe Mr. Joyce is a liar.

  231. Neil, have you noticed with all your effort, this thread has not been hijacked.

    Every time some one has answered you, they have manage to put more supporting information out. We thank you for making it easy to do this.

  232. Neil, when a MP says something in the house, it is the same as under oath.

    If Mr. Albanese was told, and do not forget most ministers involved, including the PM come through the union movement would have acted.

    The PM would have done what she did on Saturday.

    It was in Mr. Joyce’s interest for the government not to know. The PM would have spoilt his plans.

    Mr. Joyce wanted to inflict the most pain he could. Why he thought this was in his interest, only he would know that.

    Mr. Joyce want the PM or unions blame for the mess.

  233. Miglo, you have one hundred percent support from me.

    I have enjoyed contributing to this site and hope to do so for many years to come.

    I am a geriatric but thanks to you, I have found a way to stay young a little longer.

    I have been making comments on many sites for a long time.

    This is the first site that made me feel welcome.

    Thank you and Min.

  234. Sue, we have some more entertainment to listen to in three weeks. Must put it in my diary.

    Isn’t that about the time of the Presidents visit.

    I wonder what stunt Mr. Abbott will pull at that time.

  235. Mr. Joyce stills call Australian Home, at least Qantas does.

    Mr Joyce is giving the impression all he has to do, to fix things is hand out some money.

    Do Australians, still call the flying kangaroo theirs, or is that day long gone.

    It did not take long to forget Ansett. The world did not stop. We still fly in planes.

  236. CU

    Albanese has been terrific in QT this week. every strike hit home and the hits were constantly aimed at hockey.
    now whether the connection is the old friend olivia worth or just that hockey stuffed up i do not know, but what is certain it has affected someone somewhere and hence the constancy of nil.

    more to come on this, that is for sure.and the more abbott tries the stunts the more ineffective they have become.

    not one word by abbott against qantas when everyone agrees qantas went too far

    good night

  237. Hi ladies,

    Cu, your contributions are always good value, and the welcome at the Cafe is appreciated by many here I’m sure

  238. Did you watch Lateline tonight. It is a real laugh. I record everything I watch and have just got around to watch it.

    Talk about the lunatics running the asylum in the Liberal Party.

    We have a few of them on the blogs at the moment, people who do not think, mucking it up for everybody.

    It has been quite a day. Cannot wait for the next version in three weeks time.

    The part of the act that Abbott said should have been used was around in the time of the MUI dispute. I am not too sure if Cameron said Howard used it or not. The PM said it has not been tested.

  239. Cu, I caught a bit of the session with Doug Cameron and Josh Frydenberg…I couldn’t bear it.

    Frydenberg has the same cocky attitude as the IPA kiddies and it’s so annoying.

    Did you see this from Ash., I posted it here earlier and then had to leave.
    He gives a very good account of the FWA proceedings

    [I probably shouldn’t have mentioned him, he’ll be invaded by the ferals next !! ]

    http://ashghebranious.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/up-up-and-awry/

  240. Cu, this was Ash’s take on the MUI dispute 🙄

    Secondly, the Patrick’s waterfront dispute went on for four months. That is a shit load of hours Tony. 2,688 or there about. During all this time, with ports closed and ships backed up for weeks, Howard, who had s431 at his disposal, did not use it. He did not even go there. He had no balls.

  241. Cu, I believe Albanese’s version of the sequence of events was confirmed by Joyce as correct.

    Joyce was at great pains throughout his evidence this morning to stress that he made that decision by himself to ground the airline on Saturday. It had not been pre-planned in consultation with anyone else.

    So why when asked about Qantas continuing to sell tickets on-line after his announcement did he say that was a mistake, an oversight I think the words he used were to the effect ‘…..That was really careless of us…..After all that careful planning, we overlooked that…….’

    There was a clip including that particular comment played on 7.00 pm national news tonight. The ABC wasn’t drawing attention to it, but I imagine Doug Cameron will be picking up on it as he works through the whole transcript of this morning’s meeting.

  242. Hi patricia, I don’t think the MSM or the Coalition are very interested in the truth, they have a different version to spin.

  243. Frydenberg, made an idiot of himself. Ally even said at one time, that is the best answer we are going to get out of him.

    Ash is good. It was time the ferals were put to sleep.

    I got the impression that Howard used it. I must be wrong, as the PM said it has never been tested.

    I think this PM is must more wily than they think.

    I have a bad cleft palate and hare lip. Also a slight hearing defect,

    Because of this, people are inclined to think you are also stupid.

    I went to uni as a mature age student at forty,

    I first did Welfare then a Social Science Degree. Courses that you do a lot of talking in.

    At first I used to get upset at the way I was ignored and cut off.

    It hit me one day, that I had an advantage, and did I learn to use it.

    While people under estimate you, they set themselves up for a fall.

    It even worked when I did appear in court for docs. The smart questions would come in. I always had the answers, and gained respect from at least the magistrates.

    I believe that the PM is keeping much in reserve. I think many are in for a shock. I believe cabinet and caucus is aware of this.

    That was genuine welcome the PM got from the USA President and the French.

    I will not mention the Italian head, I will let the videos talk for themselves.

    I think the PM was being treat with respect, that she has earned.

  244. patricia,
    when the PM addressed the Press with her Ministers, Anthony
    Albanese made it very clear that he had spoken to Alan Joyce, who assured him that he would correct the record, and it has now been corrected in the Senate enquiry.
    It remains to be seen whether it will be reported accurately in the weekend papers.

    Will Qantas be penalised for their ‘forgetfulness’ ?

  245. “Cu, I believe Albanese’s version of the sequence of events was confirmed by Joyce as correct.”

    Not true.

    Albanese was very careful to say that he was not told there would be a lock out which is true.

    But what else was he told?? Why be so careful to give a very specific answer if he wasn’t trying to hide something???

  246. There’s a horse in here !!

    It’s been led to the water [facts] but no-one can make him drink [accept the facts].

  247. Laurie Oakes article will make the horse skittish !

    Oakes: Abbott’s mauling habit
    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/oakes-abbotts-mauling-habit/story-fn6br25t-1226186208885

    AUSTRALIA’S IMF contributions has always been bipartisan – until now, writes Laurie Oakes.
    ————————————————–

    IT WAS an extraordinary complaint from Tony Abbott. “It’s very difficult to have a sensible debate,” he said, “when you are confronted with a feral government.”

    Politicians don’t come any more ferocious and brutal than Mr Abbott. He reverted to the wild the moment he got his paws on the Liberal leadership.

    His style is pure attack dog, as feral as you’d get. Everything, irrespective of merit, has to be opposed and torn to pieces.

  248. Neil, I have run out of answers.

    I do not know any other way of saying the same thing.

    Maybe a teacher could help.

    Neil, I give up.

  249. Cu, you asked
    Pip, Patricia, I wonder how often one has to say something before it sinks in.

    It’s a good question and the answer is, in the case of the horse, it doesn’t matter how often the truth is presented because the horse isn’t thirsty for the truth 😀

  250. It is about tine Oakes got off his back side. He has written nothing that is exaggerated.

    Maybe Neil should visit the site. He might find some of his answers.

  251. An aside. The Irish government has withdrawn it embassy from the Vatican and one other place I forget.

  252. Ireland closure of Vatican embassy angers Catholic church leaders

    Cardinal Sean Brady ‘profoundly disappointed’ by cost-cutting move, which follows series of rows over sex abuse scandal

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/04/ireland-closure-vatican-embassy-catholic?newsfeed=true

    The leader of Ireland’s Catholics has criticised the republic’s government for closing its embassy to Vatican City.

    Cardinal Sean Brady expressed his “profound disappointment” over the move, which comes after diplomatic clashes this year between the Fine Gael-Labour coalition and the Holy See over the Vatican’s handling of the clerical child sex abuse scandals in Ireland.

    “This decision seems to show little regard for the important role played by the Holy See in international relations and of the historic ties between the Irish people and the Holy See over many centuries,” the cardinal said on Friday.

    The Irish foreign minister and deputy prime minister, Eamon Gilmore, said the decision followed a review of overseas missions which gave “particular attention to the economic return from bilateral missions”.

    Gilmore said the government had also decided to close Ireland’s embassies to Iran as well as its representative office in Timor-Leste He said the coalition was obliged to implement cuts to meet targets set out in the EU/IMF rescue programme for the Irish economy.

    This will save E1.25 million a year which makes sense given that Eire is broke.

  253. Cu,
    I don’t know whether horses can read, but this might help, [thanks to Ashghebranious].
    http://ashghebranious.wordpress.com/2011/11/04/up-up-and-awry/

    The FWA decision went on.

    The response industrial action of which Qantas has given notice, if taken, threatens to cause significant damage to the tourism and air transport industries and indirectly to industry generally because of the effect on consumers of air passenger and cargo services.

    In other words, there was only a threat to the economy and air services after Qantas acted and grounded its fleet following its decision to lock out the staff under the disputed agreements. It is therefore quite clear that Senator Abetz, Tony Abbott, and all those in the coalition who came out to say the government failed are lying. Further, in the senate hearing, Alan Joyce made it crystal clear that he did not communicate his actions to the government and so could not have possibly known what he was up to.

  254. Pip, I believe the Irish have their priories right. Imagine the outcry here if the PM followed the Irish.

    As for Neil. I am afraid if one goes back throught the volumes written yesterday, we have tried all.

    He just cannot see. He belives we are making it up.

  255. Cu,
    I’m not so sure about Neil. He isn’t interested in the facts if they offend his Liberal loyalties.
    We’ve explained, provided links to support what we say, and still he argues.

    Neil would be astonished to learn that I have certain beefs with the government, namely the treatment of asylum seekers, and also the treatment of the poor Indonesians who are paid to bring the boats to Christmas Island.

    They are not the big shots who organise the boats and collect the money.
    I have heard that some of these boys are as young as 16, and have been in our gaols for a long time.
    There was a discussion on the radio recently about their plight and also that new laws were rushed through Parliament to deal with them, but I haven’t been able to find out any more yet.

    I’m also concerned about the news that the government expects people on the DSP to work. That’s fine for those who are able but many are not and they seem to be included in the governments plans, which is causing great stress to many people.

    Also, and this would shock one truly feral visitor to this site, I support same sex marriage [as long as it’s not compulsory]. 🙂

  256. Cu,
    our spot in the Vatican was only opened in the recent past I think.
    Is Tim Fischer the Ambassador ?

    To be continued 🙂
    Time to sleep.

  257. My take on the Qantas lockout is that there is a large group of Liberals, headed up by Peter Reith who want the draconian industrial relations laws front and center of the party forum. Abbott is dead against this and wants to wait until after the election before total deregulation of the labour market.

    The Qantas lock out had two main political objectives (1) spoil the PM’s two months of “clear air” that is photo ops, handshakes and associate “good” PR. (2) plunge the country into industrial chaos and bring on a vote of no confidence – granted this would have been a “best” case scenario for Abbott.

    Neither was achieved so now it is “duck and cover” oh and drag out the usual subjects, you know pink batts etc etc.

    For me the most disappointing thing is that the MSM is in lock step with the Liberal agenda even if it trashes the place.

    Not sure if the journos are being complicit or just too dumb/ lazy to do any real investigation.

  258. Luna, seems to be an excellent summary of the situation.

    In addition we have as below. To me this also reads as a fact that Joyce cared for nothing about the public, but that the lockout was a business decision only.

    But at least below confirms that the government was provided with no indication that Joyce was comtemplating a lockout contradicting suggestions that the government ‘should have known’.

    Joyce showed little sign he understood why the government is angry that, in many talks about the dispute, he never said he was contemplating a lockout.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/senators-want-more-of-joyce-20111104-1n052.html#ixzz1clkIbSQy

  259. There is method in his madness. Liberal propaganda players don’t have to take facts into account, it is not about “truth”. It is about “confounding” any message that might support the Labor side of politics.
    For example, accusing the other side of a tactic that your side uses constantly is a clever deception that has been around for a long time.
    So when Abbott complains of “not being allowed to conduct sensible debate” (Laurie Oaks article mentioned above) he is defusing any legitimate criticism of his rabid behaviour.

    Neil I am not sure if you are a “smart” Liberal propaganda player or just another dumb party hack, either way your contribution is getting a bit boring – but under the heading “Nothing to See Here” it is at least staying on thread.

  260. Pip

    Yes Tim is

    CU PIP patriciawa you have all kept Tom R’s thread going, I know it is easy as the issue is important. The importance is easy to measure because as you have all noted the silly things Nil thinks he has to tell us.

    The Senate committee

    What a great coincidence that Xenophone had called for the committee to meet after worries of Qantas and the Act.
    Back when the Qantas went with the dispute (ok I am just waking as did Joyce last week and didn’t he have a busy day) One of my arguments in the discussion that followed, was that if chaos had continued it would have been to the benefit of Qantas at this committee. But then in stepped the PM and it kind of backfired on Joyce.
    Xenophone’s main line is the financial arrangements in Qantas. The unions claim shifting costs Qantas says no.
    My take, the Unions want forensic exam of all Qantas accounting, Qantas wants a very narrow exam and then when the results come out, unions to drop the issue.

    Bob Brown went to Joyce himself and how from his own assertion( ” We had been planning for weeks but when I woke in the morning blah blah”) he Joyce had misled the Prime Minister of this nation, he had misled this parliament.

    Sterle the chair, hadn’t realised until the pilots told him in evidence that at 5pm last saturday even planes taxiing for takeoff had to return to terminal and offload passengers. Sterle was amazed he kept asking “did you know that” to the other members. Sterle wasgood in an understated way.

    Cameron set the scene for Joyce, I am just a former little union official and now a senator. he then set the framework about how important Qantas is. Cameron highlighted many points Joyce agreed to every point , then the punch line , Joyce had satisfied each section of s424 of FWA so why didn’t he use it rather than the action he took against his passengers, worhkorce and nation. Cameron now has time to read Hansard with the on camera evidence and documents supplied by the witnesses and thanks to Cameron, Joyce has to return. And that is definitely not what Joyce wanted.

    3 weeks is going to be a long time to wait but even longer for Joyce, Qantas and the Opposition.

  261. Yes Sue but Qantas (very generously) allowed planes in mid flight to complete their journey.

    CU I always thought it better to be smart and pretend to be dumb than the other way around.

    It has been said that Abbott is more powerful than Gillard because he is “louder”. Many (especially young ones with their first car) associate power with noise volume. My advice would be to watch out for the quiet ones.

  262. Lunalava

    I do remember that Reporter reading out that Qantas statement. Shows how stupid the news reporters are that he read the statement without saying
    This is complete bunkum, what do you think they should do crash, ask passengers to step outside, tell the flight attendants to forget the whistles and just kiss your arse goodbye!

    It also goes to the crux of the Qantas argument about the grounding before lockout. IF Qantas was concerned about SAFETY why didn’t they see the safety issue of flights in mid air or were Qantas satisfied their pilots could handle the news of the pending lockout.

  263. Now just to add to Hockey’s woes and the plain stupidity of Abbott have a read of this

    “Australian Prime Minister Julia Gillard summed up the mood of many summit participants when she said: “Europe needs to get its own house in order.”

    Ms Gillard said she was pleased her push for increased funds for the IMF would be carried though, although how much each country would end up paying will not be agreed for several months.

    “This meeting laid the basis for IMF resources to be increased, so the IMF can play its role as a bulwark of the global economy,” she said.

    She said there had been progress on trade, jobs and financial stability.

    She also announced Australia will host the 2014 G20 summit in a city yet to be decided.”

    Now which State Premiers, who would like G20 meeting for the prestige, sent a note to the Tele before they sent it to the PM!!
    good morning Barry and Ted

  264. More on the practice of political propaganda. “When you are sick of saying the same thing, some people are hearing it for the first time”.
    Hence effective propaganda needs to have a simple message, repeated over and over to get maximum penetration, the trouble is it gets boring real quick.
    Just look at Neil of Sydney’s contributions.
    The Liberal Party “Nothing to See Here” strategy this week has seen the usual subjects being trotted out. For those who have just returned from outer space, these are:
    (1) pink batts
    (2) Rudd/Gillard Leadership tensions (see Politically Homeless for a laugh)
    (3) and this weeks new furphy – Australia donating to the European debt crisis.

  265. Pip @ 3.56am..a good one from Oakes. From your link:

    But Mr Abbott is sticking to his decision that he will abolish the (mining) tax – and all the benefits it will pay for – as soon as he becomes prime minister.

    That means he will repeal tax cuts for business, big and small. He will slash proposed infrastructure spending. And he will take back superannuation increases for workers.

    And why? Because he claims the mining companies exploiting Australia’s mineral wealth cannot afford to pay more tax.

    The risk for the Opposition Leader is that those he would deprive of benefits might see that for the nonsense it is.

    Yes indeed..this is exactly what Tony Abbott is likely to do if/when he becomes PM.

  266. “(2) Rudd/Gillard Leadership tensions (see Politically Homeless for a laugh)”

    Well centerbet thinks Rudd could be PM

    http://goodevans.centrebet.com/2011/11/04/first-time-rudd-draws-level-in-betting

    “Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd has firmed again this morning to be PM at the next Federal Election, sensationally joining Julia Gillard as $2.60 equal favourite for the first time to reclaim the top job by the next poll!

    Centrebet’s Media chief and political analyst Neil Evans said that after several continued surges in money, including a string of recent bets, Rudd had drawn level with Ms Gillard for the first time in 2011!”

  267. I reckon the G20 will be Brisbane or Canberra (Perth just had CHOGM).
    I hope Sydney will lend us (Canberra) their water canon after all our Capt Cook Jet is broke (all water spouts decline with age).

  268. Migs

    Thanks for providing the comment you posted elsewhere, so I went and had a look. I know there is so much going on behind the scenes that I am unaware of so I will only say 1 thing as it is my personal experience so I can speak with certainty.

    I left GT because of personally directed nastiness disguised as thinly veiled humour and especially from IATW who even changed his name to king rat to re enter the debate. But after a very short period it became very evident from the tone and snipes that this was the very same person that I did not wish to communicate with. I decided to have another attempt at debate but once again it was not long before it was back to the same.

    I do not leave a site simply because I have been proven wrong and I have apologised on numerous occasions both here and previously at GT and even directly one time to IATW/King Rat or the other 10 aliases he goes by. I choose to leave when the tone aginast me (not others as that is their issue to deal with) becomes bitter and sarcastic. It is my nature to not wish to deal with that type of garbage and it is time to move on.

    Derision is not debate.

    King rat has now revealed he goes by 12 aliases and email addresses on the internet. I go by 1 and 1 alone on the internet.

    If a person needs to invent 12 names and email addresses I am glad I made the decision to have nothing further to do with this individual because in my opinion it speaks volumes regarding ability to believe anyhting when a person needs to invent additional names simply to comment on blog sites.

    GT is a closed book and I am now reading and commenting on chapters at CW therefore I will not comment or respond any further.

  269. Neil

    Aussies will ( and do) bet on anything. Doesn’t mean it will happen or it is true.

    People bet on where William and Kate would holiday.

    We knew they would holiday just as we know there will be a PM at the next election.

    As I do not bet on election outcomes what and who are the bets on who will be opposition leader at the next Federal Election ?.

    Also who placed the bets ?. Are they weaqlthy coalition supporters who can manipulate a betting market to make it seem as though it is a popular decision.

  270. Oh Nil

    keep coming with the funnies, you definitely are good for a laugh.As Cameron said to Josh on lateline
    “your political analysis is based on Centrebet.”

    Good old liberals, give some support for gambling industry and try and move the debate to pokies. . Yep keep the funnies coming Nil not bad with just 5 hours sleep.

  271. Neil says:

    Well centerbet thinks Rudd could be PM

    and I bet that is a great example of the “look over here stuff”.

    Neil thanks for the good laugh by staying “on thread”

    Wonder if the Libs are “problem” gamblers they certainly don’t like policy pre-commitments.

  272. Lunalava

    we need an article on the Liberal party aversion to policy pre-commitments.
    Do you think Nil with his profound knowledge, as displayed here, could be encouraged to write it> Or is that just another distraction ?

    Back to Qantas, Joyce, the Senate committee evidence, so much more interesting and enlightening for the blogs..

  273. Wow, the font of all knowledge..Centrebet. Actually rather than equal favorite with Julia, I would have thought that Rudd would have been the short odds favorite.

    I personally have never bet on first past the post, I always bet for a win and a place.

  274. Now back to Qantas and a very god summary of last satuday

    “The preparedness raised suspicions. ”You don’t just wake up and decide to ground an entire fleet. Well, seriously, do you?” said Transport Minister Anthony Albanese.

    Richard Woodward, vice-president of the Australian and International Pilots Association, said he was told the airline was booking thousands of hotel rooms worldwide before the annual meeting.

    Qantas has not said when it booked the hotel rooms, but it has been reported that, at the weekend, it found accommodation for more than 8000 passengers overseas and more than 1700 in Australia.”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/business/timing-of-the-essence-for-qantas-20111104-1n00r.html#ixzz1cmWGPAil

  275. Shane, thanks for that info. I’ve experienced personally and watched that poisonous malice directed at others over a few months now. It’s good that you’re still here with those same ‘others.’ After an initially distressed reaction I’ve decided that awareness and a refusal to respond or buy into their nasty little dramas works for me.

    Interesting, isn’t it, Sue, that the PM seems to have learned that lesson on a much bigger stage than any we are ever likely to play on. But the script is the same for the bad guys – lie, spread poison, stir up trouble and ruin things for the good guys. Get the govt. riled and defensive so they can’t concentrate on the important things. Bring the govt down if possible. Her solution? Just keep going and refuse to be distracted. Works for her, doesn’t it Even if she loses that election in 2013 she’s still a healthy woman with a clear head and conscience. You can see it in her smile.

    I’d rather be her than Abbott any day.

    Re Centre Bet – lots of wealthy mining magnates and corporate millionaires happy to spread money around placing bets on Rudd, just as the Clubs have millions available for advertising campaigns. Explains the recent ‘surge’ in bets placed!

  276. Alert, alert, alert Nil do not read this, be warned if you do we will hear the weeping.

    “Once Labor ministers and backbenchers got past their anger at Qantas, which most of them managed by the middle of the week, they realised the company had done them a political favour. Labor has in the past few weeks begun a desperate effort to recast itself. If it is to have any chance of becoming politically competitive, it knows it must meet two threshold objectives.

    The first is to show that it can act decisively and competently. That is, it needs to demonstrate consistently that it knows what it is doing. The second is that it must reconnect with the parts of its blue-collar base that have deserted it this year – especially blue-collar males. To that end, it has to start talking and acting like a Labor government.”

    “That is where Labor is trying to take itself. So far, so good. Julia Gillard looked and sounded different this week. As the architect of the Fair Work Act, she knew what she was talking about and she believed in what she was saying. Her system faced its biggest test and within 48 hours the fleet was back in the air. Compare that with the months-long pilots’ dispute under Bob Hawke in 1989 and the 1998 waterfront dispute under John Howard.

    Gillard’s confidence in her industrial relations regime does not stem from stubborn personal pride but from a genuine philosophical commitment.”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/qantas-has-helped-labor-fly-with-some-bedrock-themes-20111104-1mzz8.html#ixzz1cmd6AERN

  277. Wow The Age. I have the same opinion of Age journalists as you do of News LTD.

    Most of them are card carrying members of the ALP. BUt I found this interesting

    “The first is to show that it can act decisively and competently. That is, it needs to demonstrate consistently that it knows what it is doing. ”

    Exactly because it is obvious to most people they have no idea what they are doing. Labor turned a $20B surplus budget into a $50B deficit during the biggest mining boom in Australian history. Furthermore labor will never balance the budget but produce the largest debt in our history if not thrown out.

    “The second is that it must reconnect with the parts of its blue-collar base that have deserted it this year – especially blue-collar males. ”

    Exactly. Even their blue-collar base no how incompetent they are.

    And Gillard does not have the slightest idea what she is doing otherwise why all the rumours of a leadership spill???

  278. Neil, and then during the Global Financial Crisis was able to turn Australia into probably the best performing economy in the World.

    The leadership speculation (yawn, not yet another one) was a time-waster, a trick that journos use to fill in the empty gaps when there is no news. Mind you, I was only a journo for a brief period of time but did learn all the tricks of the trade. Neil, these are really quite interesting..the tricks that the media uses to influence people’s opinions, especially the weak minded.

  279. “the tricks that the media uses to influence people’s opinions, especially the weak minded.”

    I tend to agree with you. What I don’t agree with is that this has started happening when the ALP was elected and the media has some vendeta against Labor. Mosts journalists are leftists so tend to favor labor and they hated John Howard.

    So if the media is against labor they most probably have a good reason.

    And I find you giving credit to labor for the economy highly offensive.

    It took 11 years to pay off the debt you people created last time in power. We were one of the few countries to hit the GFC with zero Federal govt debt.

    To give credit to labor who only creates debt when in power is insulting.

  280. Nil you just don’t understand the irony, Shaun Carney. Even that is funny. Have another read but keep the tissues handy.

  281. Min
    The only problem is, there is plenty of news, it is just that the news does not fit in the pro-forma news articles that the journos rely on.

  282. Excellent round-up of how the ‘media’ happened over this shameful (for Qantas board) affair.

    Apparently the world wide disruption caused by this event is no longer important if it can’t be used to further the Murdoch media’s misigynistic and disgraceful misrepresentation of Prime Minister Gillard.

    It’s now at the point where I can no longer read or watch most mainstream media due to the manipulation and game playing which is increasingly evident. It’s pretty sickening when we can’t get any actual news about events such as the G20 summit (fairly important one might think) unless we read foreign media.

    The Australian press, bleating all the while about ‘free speech’ of course, fails to report much news at all and hardly anything in the way of domestic politics, remaining intent on sullying Gillard’s position by dredging up possible (although unlikely) “leadership challenges”. Such claims were once the province of the ‘slow news’ day ~ now they replace the actual news.

    Puff pieces, ‘infotorials’ and plain out editorialising is not news, and I’m thankful others have the stomach to read it so I don’t have to. 😀

  283. Luna @ 7.03am,
    Not sure if the journos are being complicit or just too dumb/ lazy to do any real investigation.

    I think it has something to do with ‘another day, another dollar’.

    Write what the old foreigner wants or take a hike !

  284. “Apparently the world wide disruption caused by this event is no longer important if it can’t be used to further the Murdoch media’s misigynistic and disgraceful misrepresentation of Prime Minister Gillard.”

    You got that wrong. It is no longer important because there is no mileage in it for the ALP.

    If Howard was in power the Qantas dispute would be frontline news for weeks. Michelle Gratan and the rest of The Age would keep it in the news for weeks.

    I think you people should go back and read newspaper articles from 1996-2007. The press was not very friendly to Howard. It never is for Conservative govts since leftists tend to migrate to media institutions like the ABC, newspapers etc. Talk back radio however seems to be dominated by people who are Liberal supporters.

    But it is a terrible govt with no success stories.

    We had 6 boat people in detention in 2007. We now have 6,000 with hundreds dead trying to get here. All due to the ALP and the people who voted for this moral scum in 2007.

  285. Nil,
    You got that wrong. It is no longer important because there is no mileage in it for the ALP.

    Would you like a bet on that ??

  286. For those who weren’t blindly singing the Howard government’s praises, it comes as no surprise that the Free Trade Agreement with the USA is a very one-sided deal which left Australia way behind.

    Very clever hey Neil !

    Free trade pact a dud for Australia
    http://www.smh.com.au/business/free-trade-pact-a-dud-for-australia-20111104-1mzze.html


    The FTA was a major event. It was conceived by the friendship between prime minister John Howard and president George Bush. It had the total support of the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The chief negotiator for the US was Richard Zoellick, an ex-managing director of Goldman Sachs. He is now president of the World Bank.

    Zoellick arrived for the negotiations with a large and sophisticated team. We were almost drowned before we knew we were in deep water. Australia’s prospects of selling elaborately transformed manufactures (ETMs) to the US were limited at the outset. A lot of what was promised by the US either didn’t happen (sugar and access to the US market for movies and TV) or was put on an 18-year phasing program.

    And

    Since the FTA began, we have bought $100 billion more of goods from the US than we have received from sales to it.

    ***
    Martin Feil is a tax and industry policy consultant and former director of the Industries Assistance Commission.

  287. The numbers in detention centres rise for the same reason that the numbers in private prisons around the world continue to rise. There are numerous vested interests in having people in detention. In otherw ords ~ money, and large amounts of it, is being made from detention. I have no doubt Mr Howard would approve.

    What that has to do with the media coverage of the Qantas affair I’m not sure. The media is notably silent about the matter of privatisation of human services, possibly because the same large investors like to spread their shareholdings about.

    As for media coberage during the Howard years, I am sure I recall Mr Howard’s overseas adventures being reported on in detail, and that an enquiry set up by the Liberal party to investigate ABC tv ‘bias’ found there was almost none. It’s too nice a day to spend looking that up, those who fel sufficiently moved to do so, can. Or you could just trust me. After all, I may be a tv journalist for all you know!

  288. Christine Say Hi
    if you are interested about corporates and prisons have a look at truthout. In the good old USA the prisons and their labor force are undercutting private enterprise. eg
    http://www.truth-out.org/georgia-considers-replacing-firefighters-free-prison-laborers/1318532127

    Nil
    ‘If Howard was in power the Qantas dispute would be frontline news for weeks. Michelle Gratan and the rest of The Age would keep it in the news for weeks.”
    substitute waterfront for qantas and you would be right. howard certainly stuffed up there and thanks to howard’s action the msm couldn’t help but write about it.
    keep the tissues handy, nil

  289. I’m happy to be proven wrong on this if the receipts or whatever can be produced. But the idea that hotels across the globe would happily leave large numbers of empty rooms vacant on the off chance a transport company might need them fails my personal laugh test.

  290. Christine don’t worry , it’s been done before 😳

    Some links on Serco. [ Not your average small business ! ]

    * Serco’s detenction-centre fees ‘secretly doubled’

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/treasury/sercos-detenction-centre-fees-secretly-doubled/story-fn8gf1nz-1226054256352

    ** Nightmare on Christmas Island: Serco’s Australian Detention Center

    by Patrick O’Keeffe, Special to CorpWatch
    October 25th, 2011

    http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15664

    SERCO

    A FTSE 1000 international service company, Serco has grown largely through the outsourcing of public services, particularly from successive UK governments. Now worth an estimated $4 billion, Serco is involved in hospitals, traffic management, prisons, immigration detention, military logistics, military health support, prisoner transport and custodial security, education, health and justice, amongst other activities.

  291. Christine Says Hi, how wonderful to see you here. That’s fine..and absolutely, we’re all learners one way or the other 😉

    Christine, you may indeed be a TV journo..nah, you’ve done far too much research to be one of those.

  292. BSA Bob
    What is even funnier at the committee yesterday, Joyce said it was common practice to book such room in advance each weekend. Sterle than asked if it was common to book every Friday for the weekend. Joyce mumbled quite common, so sterle asked for Joyce to produce the evidence.
    The truth will out as they say

  293. If Christine Says Hi was a tv journo, she would have assured us that all planes are allowed to complete their journeys, then put forward her comments.

  294. BSA Bob, it beggers belief that thousands of rooms would be found with just a few hours notice, in exactly the same cities across the world as the grounded flights.

    As you say it fails the personal laugh test.

    Corporate sociopathy at it’s most impressive, that we are expected to believe the lies, simply because they said so.

  295. Min, Christine, you may indeed be a TV journo..nah, you’ve done far too much research to be one of those.

    True !

  296. All Albanese had to do was read the daily Telegraph to know a grounding of the fleet was possible. However he already knew since he was told many times but chose to do nothing about it.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/albaneses-grasp-on-reality-limited/story-e6frezz0-1226182941215

    “On October 25, the Telegraph published a page 11 report that began with these ominous words: “Qantas has warned it will ground its entire international fleet … “

  297. “here are numerous vested interests in having people in detention. In otherw ords ~ money, and large amounts of it, is being made from detention. I have no doubt Mr Howard would approve.”

    Mr Howard would not approve.

    Christine we had 6 people in detention when Howard lost office and we now have 6,000. You people have the record for the most refugees locked up.

    And it is all due to your vote at the 2007 election. Yes siree.

  298. Neil

    Rather than believe a one sentence headline can you provide me a link to the 25th October Telegraph Story as I cannot find it to be able to actually read what the story said.

  299. Neil

    The only story I can find in the daily Telegraph begins with the following sentence.

    “QANTAS has warned that it would be forced to ground its entire international fleet if long haul pilots invoked a 48 hour strike clause contained in its protected action claim filed with Fair Work Australia.”

    Long haul pilots took no such action whatsoever and only wore red ties and made public announcements. If this is the so called Telegraph Story they are alluding to then they are lying about the contents of their own story.

    Here is the link.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/snap-pilots-strike-could-ground-entire-qantas-fleet/story-fn6b3v4f-1226175484298

  300. Neil

    The sentence says something completely different than what happened.

    Long Haul pilots took no industrial action whatsoever yet a despicable board shut down an ariline and the Daily Telegraph takes a snippet of one sentence and uses it as some kind of proof that we all knew Qantas would shut down the airline.

    Shows to me the total vendetta of a newspaper to spitefully claim things that are totally false from even its own so called news items from its own paper.

  301. Well you may be right but there were other warnings

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/qantas-forced-to-end-worker-lockout/story-fnaskcqt-1226181649429

    “Mr Albanese said he’d had three face-to-face meetings with Mr Joyce – two on October 21 and one on October 26.

    “Qantas had certainly raised with me … the problems they were having with the fleet and the grounding of the fleet, in terms of the grounding of particular planes,” Mr Albanese said.

    “Seven aircraft had been grounded. Mr Joyce had indicated … that obviously if planes kept being grounded at a rate of two a week it would reach some point whereby there were a range of aircraft grounded, and therefore the airline would not operate.”

    You have your angle of the story- the dasterdly behaviour of Qantas.

    I am saying that the Coalition had no idea of this action. TomR said that the Coalition allowed thousands of people to be grounded because they had inside knowledge and did not tell anybody.

  302. Neil

    It is not a case of I may be right, it is fact. Other than wearing red ties and making PA announcements no other action was taken by pilots. To claim anything else is a lie.

    I do have my angle and once again this report proves the dastardly behaviour of Qantas and the terrible bias and bitterness of the Daily Telegraph and News Limited.

    The board should be removed for this ( in my opinion) criminal act against our citizens and against out tourism industry without notice.

    While the coaliton may not have known of the exact timing I would doubt Qantas would have acte din this way without any political party knowing especially the coalition just as you would doubt an ALP government not knowing of a union action of this magnitude beforehand. It just doesn’t gel and the more the Telegraph tries to lay blame the more it is making a mockery of its own reporting. Just a pity that those who are commenting on the link you provided haven’t gone back and read the whole story before lodging their spiteful comments.

  303. Shane

    We do not know what Qantas told Albanese. I would not trust him in a million years.

    Strange. The last link I gave worked for me when I posted but now you need to login.

    Anyway it said this “Mr Albanese said he’d had three face-to-face meetings with Mr Joyce – two on October 21 and one on October 26.”

    What was said??? Joyce has said the govt was warned there could be a grounding of the fleet.

  304. Luna. I did not say I was pretending to act dumb. That is what Mr. Abbott is doing. I have no idea why.
    What I said that people assumed I was dumb and I realise it was to my benefit to let them continue to think so. There is no way I would pretend to act dumb. That would not be smart. Not that I am that clever anyway. It is just that I do not see myself as stupid.
    It is not my fault, because of cosmetic and mild speaking disabilities that others do. It is not my fault that people judge a book by its cover.
    Notice they spend little time criticising what the PM is doing. The do not attempt to analyse the bills that are past in Parliament. Anything of substance must be avoided at all cost.
    This is why they spend so much effort focussing on what the PM is wearing. If one cannot, in their reasoning, wear clothes like a fashion model, you are lacking in any ability. If you are a woman, you must have the perfect figure. I noticed last night; the Italian head of government was not disappointed by what he saw. I am not too sure that is a compliment from that man.
    That why Mr. Abbott worked hard to undermine the PM in Perth. No matter what is good for the country, the PM must not be allowed to look good. The glimpses we had of the PM indicated she looked very good.
    The same for her visit to IMF. What does the illustrious Opposition leader come out with on Thursday? The stupid proposition the PM is wasting our moment at the IMF. Most business leaders and many other economic experts quickly crushed this but I suspect the perception is still aboard in the community that the PM is wasting our money on countries that got themselves into their own messes.
    I am surprised of the warm and what appears to be the genuine welcome our PM received heads of government. There must have been a lot of hard work done behind the scenes for this to happen after only twelve months in the job.
    Yes, it is stupid to act dumb as Mr. Abbott does.
    Mr. Abbott made a statement that did not get much coverage when he made it. He said that there was no way he would revisit WorkChoices UNLESS there was are call form the business world to do so. I think he added that it was up to them to that. Please do not ask for links, I do not have them after this length of time.
    Is not this is what occurring now. The climate us being created for the return of WorkChoices. If anyone thinks big business is not going give up, they had better think again.
    I say big business because there is little in WorkChoices for little business. The opposite is true.
    It was said yesterday by the whistle blowers that the agreements ending are the AWA’s of WorkChoices.
    Mr Costello has said also as these agreements come to an end, there will be much more strife that is industrial. This has to be true. The employers that demand and imposed AWA are the extreme ones. They are going to fight hard to keep the advantages they gained at the expense of the workers under AWAs.

  305. I believe you confided once that you are a union member Neil. Have you recently (over the past 5 years) been in a dispute with your employer? Are you aware of the requirements of notification which needs to be given to the employers before any action can legally occur?

    All of those “warnings” are based on contingency plans the union had to tell Qantas about before they could take any action. The 48 hr stoppage was only an option on the table for the union – it was obviously not a preferred or likely option, but it had to be flagged as a possibility if they needed to escalate their action – that’s what Joyce’s ‘warnings” are based upon.

    Many Labor ministers would be very well aware of how the IR system works, as I’m sure Mr Joyce and his HR management people also do. The claims Mr Joyce is making publicly now are of an @r$e covering nature, trying to deflect attention away from the despicable actions he took, quite likely cheered on by sympathisers from the conservative side of politics…

  306. Neil

    Read the whole story from the link I provided if you can and you will see there was no threat of immediate action by Qantas but rather a slow grounding of the fleet if the pilots took industrial action.

    The pilots took no such action, so even if Qantas had meetings with Albanese they were stating publicly that Pilot action would trigger groundings and this did not eventuate.

    Even if there were so called rumours they would have included the proviso of pilots taking industrial action and this simply did not happen

    Of course you would believe Hockey and the coalition and not Albanese or the ALP who are full of liars, thieves etc,etc.

    I accept you dont trust anyone in the ALP at all, as that has been your nature since we first corresponded, but it is interesting that you believe the daily telegraph without even reading the story they link to first.

    I am more inclined to make decisions based on individuals rather than tar everyone with the same brush.

  307. O.K. But we have this

    ““Qantas had certainly raised with me … the problems they were having with the fleet and the grounding of the fleet, in terms of the grounding of particular planes,” Mr Albanese said.

    “Seven aircraft had been grounded. Mr Joyce had indicated … that obviously if planes kept being grounded at a rate of two a week it would reach some point whereby there were a range of aircraft grounded, and therefore the airline would not operate.”

    There is no Conspiracy between Qantas and the Coalition as TomR in his post tries to make out.

  308. Neil

    I hope you remember how you claim no conspiracy between Qantas and the coalition when any claim of conspiracy between the ALP and unions is raised in the future from rumours and so called news from papaers at News Limiited.

    I accept there is no evidence at this stage of a conspiracy between Qantas and the Coalition.

  309. Neil

    What you also need to accept is that the government acted as quickly as it could and also knew nothing of a total lockout and abandonment of our citizens worldwide by Qantas

  310. http://www.pm.gov.au/press-office/transcript-joint-press-conference-canberra-18

    “MINISTER ALBANESE: Well, what it’s up to me to explain is to put the facts out there.

    Qantas had certainly raised with me, on a number of occasions – we had face to face meetings, phone conversations – the problems they were having with the fleet and the grounding of the fleet in terms of the grounding of particular planes, and seven aircraft had been grounded.

    As you would be aware, Mr Joyce has indicated, and we have a difference as with regard to interpretation of that in terms of timing, but he indicated that obviously if planes kept being grounded at a rate of two a week it would reach some point whereby there were a range of aircraft grounded, and therefore the airline would not operate.”

    He was warned that the airline may not operate. he was not told there would be a lock out.

    Whats the difference??

  311. I don’t think Tom R is trying to make up anything. He has presented his side of the argument, as you have yours. His is by far stronger.

  312. Well how would you interpret this

    “Even though, the fact that opposition members were aware of an imminent grounding (even though there was no more industrial action, except for pilots wearing red ties), and allowed tens of thousands of people to become stranded. Not one iota of light has been shone on this murky subject.”

  313. http://www.fwa.gov.au/index.cfm?pagename=industrialstop

    What is involved in taking protected industrial action?

    In the case of employees, a protected action ballot to authorise the industrial action is required before industrial action can be taken.

    Before the industrial action begins, written notice must be given to the other side of the negotiations.

    Unless the industrial action is in response to industrial action taken by the other side, at least three days’ notice must be given. The written notice must state the nature of the intended action and the day it will begin.

    What this means, is that the union must notify the employer in wirting of any action it may take at least 3 days before that action could legally be taken. In my experience, the action flagged is very often not taken. It is flagged as a possibility to encourage the employer to bargain in good faith rather than risk the consequences of the proposed action. Sometimes though the employer digs their heels in & the action is taken…

  314. He was warned that the airline may not operate. he was not told there would be a lock out.

    Whats the difference??

    One is contingent on unions proceding with a particular course of action – IF that were to occur, the airline MAY not be able to operate. The other is a deliberate ploy by Qantas to ground all flights immediately…

  315. Sue @ 7.35am wrote
    CU PIP patriciawa you have all kept Tom R’s thread going, I know it is easy as the issue is important. The importance is easy to measure because as you have all noted the silly things Nil thinks he has to tell us.

    Nil has been writing silly things and making up stuff all day !

  316. Neil’s mention at 3.30 of a Telegraph story brings images of adolescent males & wolves to mind. No doubt suitable connections can be found if you look hard enough through right coloured glasses, but coming from a rag like the Tele they can’t be considered as anything other than either pieces of a plot or clang associations.

  317. BSA Bob,
    Nil has had the links provided repeatedly and ignores them so once more, with feeling !!

    Nil, for the record, this is what Alan Joyce told the Senators yesterday ……

    http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/8370061/qantas-told-no-one-of-lockout-plans-joyce

    Qantas boss Alan Joyce says he did not discuss the possibility of locking out the airline’s workforce with either the federal government or the opposition before he announced the drastic action last weekend.

    Mr Joyce was grilled by senators for three hours on Friday during a fiery parliamentary hearing which ran twice as long as scheduled.

  318. “Qantas boss Alan Joyce says he did not discuss the possibility of locking out the airline’s workforce with either the federal government or the opposition before he announced the drastic action last weekend.”

    Yes, for the one millionth time I know.

    Albanese was told however that the airline may shut down.

    TomR is giving the govt the Sargent Schulz defence. I know nothing.

    However according to TomR the Coalition knew all about this “and allowed tens of thousands of people to become stranded. Not one iota of light has been shone on this murky subject.”

    It is only murky in TomR’s deluded brain.

  319. Neil

    “It is only murky in TomR’s deluded brain”

    I think there are many murky things lurkinjg in all of our brains, I don’t think that means we are deluded. Should that phrase apply to yourself with your comment and link at 3.30pm which was found to be completely false simply by reading the full story on the date quoted.

  320. “If Howard was in power the Qantas dispute would be frontline news for weeks. Michelle Grattan and the rest of The Age would keep it in the news for weeks.”

    Neil, for once I have to agree with you. I would be surprise if it was for the same reason.

    It would be in the news because the dispute would be still going. It would would not be ended 33 hours. Yes Neil, hours, not days or weeks.

    Why are the leadership rumours still going. I will ask you why do you think they are.

    Yes, Luna you have to be aware of the quiet achievers. They do not crave the limelight but get on with the job.

    Neil, it does not matter what the topic is, you always get back to debt.

    Mr. Abbott tried that on Thursday. He shot himself in the foot and it did not do him much good

    Neil, the proof is in the eating, and at this time our economy does not taste bad.

    Neil, Mr Abbott complains the gevernment is feral and only attacks. He is complaining you cannot have a sensible debate. Neil do you agree with Mr. Abbott.

    Neil, is Mr. Abbott reaping what he has sown.

    Is it possible to have a sensible debate with Mr. Abbott.

    Is it too late to expect a sensible debate. I noticed that Mr. Abbott has made one or two attempts at this but has been ignored by the MSM.

    Why?

  321. Shane

    It wasn’t totally false. It adds evidence that there were rumours of a shut down for whatever reason.

    The Telegraph was trying to say that a grounding was a possibility. It did not happen for the reason they gave but it did happen and Albanese was told.

    http://www.pm.gov.au/press-office/transcript-joint-press-conference-canberra-18

    “As you would be aware, Mr Joyce has indicated, and we have a difference as with regard to interpretation of that in terms of timing, but he indicated that obviously if planes kept being grounded at a rate of two a week it would reach some point whereby there were a range of aircraft grounded, and therefore the airline would not operate.”

    But TomR’s point is that the govt knew nothing but the Coalition did know.

    What a joke.

  322. Neil

    It was totally false and misleading and you know it beause you accepted it was.

    You are now simply trying to justify the despicable action of the Telegraph for telling lies to make a story.

    It is as obvious as the day is long that Qantas were threatening to ground the airline totally if the pilots took action.

    The pilots did not take action. Qnatas despicably shut down its airline anyway

    Those are the facts. The rest is lies and trying to justify them by colouring the words or manipultaion and massage of terms is downright dishonest.

    What I do await with interest is whether booking thousands of hotel rooms worldwide was pre organised or standard procedure for Qantas.

  323. No Neil – As Tom R said, “The point of this post was that, as soon as Hockey came out with this revelation, the media lost interest.

    Shane mentioned that Mr Hockey had clarified his remarks since the post was made, but the MSM wasn’t interested in investigating the quite likely link between the conservative side of politics (whether that involves advice to Qantas from Liberal politicians or faceless men) and Qantas in this matter.

    No further investigation of Mr Hockey’s former employee and any “informal” information that may have passed along this channel. No investigation of the mutterings from 2 Liberal Premiers well before the event. All suspicious stuff that warrants further scrutiny, but it’s totally ignored by our media. Why?

  324. “BSA Bob, it beggars belief that thousands of rooms would be found with just a few hours notice, in exactly the same cities across the world as the grounded flights.”

    Mr. Joyce is extremely lucky to find all those rooms available on a weekend, and a Saturday night at that.

    It is amazing that he can have printed and individually delivered, notifications by five PM to 30,000 people. This borders on miraculous, considering it was Saturday and the decision was not made until after ten AM.

    It is amazing that the board was available to be called to an emergency meeting at ten, Saturday morning.

    This man is truly a amazing organiser.

  325. I will suggest it would read better for Qantas if Mr. Joyce did not turn up to those three meetings in the eight days leading up to the dispute.

    It would make better reading for Qantas if Mr. Joyce did not let the parties think there was progress happening.

    It would read better for Qantas if Mr. Joyce said during the time, he would not agree to anything.

    Neil, where did Mr. Joyce say he did not believe anything Mr. Albanese said. The only comment I heard Mr,. Joyce utter, was that Mr. Albanese behaved in an professional manner at all times.

  326. “All suspicious stuff that warrants further scrutiny, but it’s totally ignored by our media. Why?”

    Because there is nothing in it.

    What our useless media should be doing is finding out what the people in govt ie. Albanese knew.

    “It is as obvious as the day is long that Qantas were threatening to ground the airline totally if the pilots took action.”

    Shane- people in the media have access to information we do not have. They obviously knew about the rumours as did Hockey. They had been circulating for weeks

  327. Neil, but yes there may have been rumours but as I have stated previously you cannot expect anyone to take action based just on rumours.

    If no one in the opposition had enough faith in these rumours to bother going to the Minister..well then they didn’t care much about the people stranded by Qantas, either that or they thought that it was just that, a rumour.

    That is IF there was substance to these rumours..the opposition or the media who you say has ‘access to information we do not have’…then WHY did they not make this information public. WHY did they just sit there like lumps and not bother to make this information public..the media AND Hockey.

  328. Note: It is imperative that a PM now needs the power to read the tea leaves.

    These same tea leaves will be analyse after the event, and god help them if they get it wrong.

    I do not know where this leaves Mr. Abbott. He has trouble looking to to morrow.

    We now have to judge this government by what happens in hindsight.

    They should have known.

  329. An aside, did anyone see any interviews of refugees from the Melbourne Races stranded at the airport.

    Being a big racing weekend, there must have been some.

    I hate to think they had been forewarned.

  330. Neil

    You keep repeating exactly the same thing over and over again, so I deem it no longer worth responding. I suggest you simply go back up to where you said the same thing earlier and then read my responses if you want me to respond.

  331. Because there is nothing in it.

    You “know” this how Neil?

    The media has asked those questions of the government Neil – and been answered. Why no scrutiny of areas that do seem to warrant it?

  332. Bracchus, do not worry, Mr. Abbott and his cohorts are also of the belief Questions should not be asked of them.

    Maybe this is because they are uncomfortable answering them. Particually the ones where the scripted three word slogans answers sound silly.

  333. I sometimes wonder if Neil really believes his own words. Has anybody ever considered the possibility that he’s just playing a game?

  334. Roswell I have but he is so dedicated.

    Maybe he needs to take some time off to update his views.

    The world is changing and changing fast.

    It is that Neil has not noticed.

  335. “If no one in the opposition had enough faith in these rumours to bother going to the Minister..well then they didn’t care much about the people stranded by Qantas, either that or they thought that it was just that, a rumour. ”

    Come on Min you are starting to annoy me. can you read English?? Everybody new, especially govt ministers

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/spat-over-who-was-told-what-and-when-in-qantas-shutdown/story-fnaskcqt-1226181997543

    “We had briefings with ministers, with the department. We told them how our operation was deteriorating and that reliability was collapsing,” Mr Joyce told ABC Radio National’s Fran Kelly.

    “I said on multiple occasions we could get to a stage where we have to ground the airline. That’s how bad this was. And that was made very clear.””

    No doubt you will support your corrupt Lords and masters to the bitter end.

    Albanese was TOLD

    Why did he sit on this knowledge like a lump and do NOTHING???

  336. Neil, because he was too bloody busy mediating between the parties, including Mr Joyce to settle the dispute.

    That is why.

    At the same time Mr. Joyce was leading Mr. Albanese down the garden path, stalling until he could put in place his plans to lock out the workers.

    That is why?

    Yes, Mr. ALbanese may have been naive to believe that Mr. Joyce was acting in good faith.

    We all make mistakes..

  337. shaneinqld

    regarding the 7 grounded planes I suggest you read Hansard and the engineers evidence. the committee will definitely be questioning Joyce on that angle. all is not as the tele would assert.

    Nil
    poor nil pull out the tissues. The private meetings blabbed to the tele by joyce were thoroughly addressed by Albo, but you probably missed it. all the parties, albo joyce sheldon on the wednesday had decided progress was made. in fact, as a concession to the progress of good faith bargaining the TWU called off all industrial action. that is why when the parties were at the fwa hearing the only industrial action apart from Qantas, was the wearing of red ties by pilots. weep and whine nil . i myself have been wiping away the tears by my fits of laughter, knowing that nil quotes the Telegraph as a source of intelligent argument.

  338. Quote:

    Neil of Sydney:

    “here are numerous vested interests in having people in detention. In otherw ords ~ money, and large amounts of it, is being made from detention. I have no doubt Mr Howard would approve.”

    Mr Howard would not approve.

    Christine we had 6 people in detention when Howard lost office and we now have 6,000. You people have the record for the most refugees locked up.

    And it is all due to your vote at the 2007 election. Yes siree.

    End quote

    This will be a little off topic, so apologies in advance ~ please skip it if you’re wishing to stay on track! Also, I don’t usually bother to reply to personally attacking posts because meh, life is short, but I’m new here so wtf 🙂

    Point 1:

    The Howard government detained thousands of people during its political life, many of them on Nauru where accountability to the Australian government which paid for the process was nil.

    During Howard’s time as PM, mandatory detention was privatised (first to Global Solutions, later to Serco) at a hugely increased cost to taxpayers above the previous state agency managed system. Australians now pay up to half a million dollars per four person family ‘managed’ by Serco, per year. Yes, every single year. Some are ‘detained for nine years. profit motivations? Oh, surely not.

    Over 2,000 children were held in mandatory detention for up to five years while Howard was PM, a fact which prompted a number of Howard’s own parliamentary members to threaten to cross the floor unless he changed the policy. Detainees also launched and won legal actions rsulting in millions of dollars of costs and hundreds of thousands in comepnsation payments during the Howard years.

    The cherries on top of this neat confection were doubtless the 200 people found to have been illegally detained, Several of them Australian citizens who had the misfirtune to be brown or heavily accented. One of these was deported and could not later be found.

    The Rudd and Gillard governments have rightly incurred much criticism for the policies they are running regarding mandatory detention but Howard’s crowd have nothing to crow about, although eating crow may be appropriate.

    Point 2:

    Since my arrival this afternoon, I have posted opinions regarding two matters ~ opposing the actions of the Qantas Board in downing the fleet last week and opposing Australia’s mandatory detention policies.

    How you arrived at your decision about my political persuasion, let alone how I voted at any election any time ever is beyond me. You know nothing about me or my politics, or my views, or my vote, except what I choose to make public in forums such as this.

    You may wish to spend a moment thinking about that as a reality before further exercising you ‘call a name and run away’ debating technique.

    No doubt you were the terror of the third grade with that finely honed skill, but once I finish this paragraph, I will have ceased to care about you, or your ‘debate’ style.

  339. Christine Says Hi

    I wish you luck. You will need it,if you are going to convince Neil of anything.

    The rest of us I believe are happy to see new opinions.

    Neil is one of our pets. We have had to deal with much worse than him.

    All we have to do, is remeber to respect one another and everything flows wondefully.

  340. Migs, have only just read your post from last night. I can only say I don’t know how you put up with his behaviour for so long. He never once contributed anything of value to any of our discussions.

    He is a troll and should be treated as one.

    I support your decision 100%.

  341. Hi Christine Says Hi Welcome 🙂

    You may be interested in the How To tab at the top of the page for formatting tips.

    You seem to be wanting to use blockquote code to enhance your posts 😉 Don’t hesitate to ask if you need a hand…

  342. Likewise Roswell – there’s plenty of help available if you want to learn about enhancing posts. Migs setup the HowTo early on, and many here can help with any questions 🙂

  343. Catching up – Did you mean to type Neil is one of our pets or pests?

    You’re right either way. Neil is Cafe Whispers’ pet pest.

  344. Nope Roswell – there’s many here much more technically competent than me when it comes to blogging – I’ve just been around for a while 😉

  345. A few weeks ago , AFL CEO, Mr. Andrew Demetriou took a swipe at Clubs Australia for reports of an alliance of NRL and AFL clubs backing Clubs Australia’s campaign against mandatory pre-commitment technology with TV ads ahead of grand final weekend

    AFL chief Andrew Demetriou slaps down clubs movement over pokies push
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/andrew-wilkie-says-he-has-no-position-on-whether-clubs-are-compensated-for-pokies-reforms/story-fn59niix-1226147076481

    Mr. Demetriou didn’t appreciate the “reports” and delivered a rebuke to Clubs Australia chief executive Anthony Ball.

    “The fellow from Clubs Australia, I don’t even know his name, so please stop talking on our behalf. Just shut up,” he said in Melbourne.

    For a long time now the media have been making up stuff about Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd and anything else that enters their silly skulls, and it’s time someone said to the journalists what Mr. Demetriou said to the Clubs Australia CEO.

    “SHUT UP. JUST SHUT UP’ and stop writing crap.

    For the umteenth time Mr. Rudd has put the record straight and it has made no dent in the spin from the “news” media.

    Rudd denies plotting against Gillard

    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/rudd-denies-plotting-against-gillard/story-e6frfku0-1226186140983

    FOREIGN Minister Kevin Rudd has again dismissed speculation he’s trying to orchestrate the demise of Prime Minister Julia Gillard.
    “I am very happy being the Foreign Minister of Australia (and) I intend to remain the Foreign Minister of Australia, on the condition that I continue to do a reasonable job,” Mr Rudd said today.

    Mr Rudd insisted Ms Gillard had his support on poker machine reforms after he ignored a question on the issue in Parliament last week.

  346. Yesterday when the news broke that the PM had the G20 for 2014, I pondered whether Barry and Ted would regret their letter in the Tele about Qantas, the letter that was sent to the PM later.

    Well low and behold they are not at all regretful, no, good old Barrel is the first off the mark with putting up Sydney as the host of the G20

    “A spokesman for the Prime Minister said candidates’ submissions would go to the PM’s office.

    Those submissions would be taken with recommendations to cabinet, which would make a decision and announcement by June 2012, he said.

    NSW was first to begin its campaign, with Premier Barry O’Farrell stressing the benefits of Sydney.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-05/state-leaders-spruik-for-g20-city/3637382

    Oh and Nil, I looked in the Tele to see if Barrel’s request was there but it wasn’t. The Tele has a much more important story to run your Alan Joyce, the bravest or craziest man in Australia. Yes a PR story on the man who attempted to stop a nation.

    Nothing like a sympathy story for the best PR – his prostate made him do it-
    “Qantas image may never recover.How will Joyce solve this one?
    Part of the answer is the 45-year-old Irish-Australian’s stubborn resolve; the steel that helped him survive a highly aggressive form of prostate cancer this year.”

    And Nil as a bit more of the PR, poor old General Cosgrove got a bit of a bad rap, so why not include him, and here it is

    “he’s still a working class boy, says one of Joyce’s staunchest supporters, General Peter Cosgrove. “People become fixated on his appointment and his [$5 million] remuneration, and they probably think he’s some kind of silvertail,” says Cosgrove, the former Defence Force chief and now a Qantas board member.

    “I know that Alan Joyce came from a working class background and dragged himself up through a career. He’s a very clever, very compassionate and very talented man who is doing a great job as CEO.”

    This week, Cosgrove has loved watching Qantas herd passengers into hotel rooms or on to other airlines. “It was more impressive than anything I’ve seen in the military,” Cosgrove says. Couldn’t this all have been avoided, if Joyce had simply given in?”

    Well FU Cosgrove I DIDN’T LOVE SEEING QANTAS PASSENGERS STRANDED. Stick that with your AC,s MC, Australian of the year.
    How dare you, and we all guessed that it was done with MILITARY precision!, And I would ask does a general wake up and think today is a good day for a war?

    Oh and the best from the General is when he is attacking the engineers. Fancy needing engineers. I remind you General under your command maintenance on military machines was run down. Look at what is left of the navy, look a the lives lost because of the helicopters.

    Yes General Cosgrove include yourself with Joyce but give back your Australian awards .

  347. Isn’t it the first class passengers, who describe the ones at the back of the plane as the “cattle class”. So for the General, having Qantas “herd” stranded passengers is quite acceptable. Was the General present when this “herding” took place? A compassionate man, this Qantas Board Member, to foist this on his passengers than “love” watching the aftermath.
    He may like to address his opinions to the very welcoming Senate Committee in 3 weeks time. Hey Doug Cameron offer him an invite.

  348. A big thank you to Nil.

    I only went to the Tele, nil’s paper of choice, to see if Barrel had sent the Tele his letter to the PM and Cabinet, bit no he hasn’t.
    The I came across the Joyce/Cosgrove/Qantas PR stunt.
    A gifted piece of writing.

  349. So Qantas is going to use millions of shareholders money in giving away 100,000 free tickets just to save Joyce’s reputation.

    When all else fails with the wealthy and privileged, bribe, but always do so with someone else’s money, never your own considerable wealth.

    Not surer admission he well and truly stuffed it up.

  350. The opposition has again promised to hand out huge amounts of money with no funding, business case or inkling of just where they are going to get the money from.

    The government wants to up the super surcharge from 9% to 12% and will fund some of that from the MRT. The opposition have also said they would do this, but will not say where they will get the money from.

    As I posted not all that long ago, the opposition’s currently $70 billion unfunded black hole will be small bickies by the time an election comes round, shit, $100 billion in the red will be minuscule.

    But of course they can promise all the unfunded tens or hundreds of billions they like as Abbott has no intention of keeping a fraction of his promises. But I bet there aren’t placards at parliament house calling him a liar.

  351. Mobius, on your previous recommendation that to look at State Liberal governments is to be looking at a future Abbott government…

    THE Baillieu government has developed a secret plan to goad the state’s nurses into industrial action so it can force them into arbitration, cut nurse numbers and replace them at hospital bedsides with low-skilled ”health assistants”.

    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/revealed-secret-plan-to-cut-nurse-numbers-20111105-1n1f9.html#ixzz1crqvWaRq

  352. Yep Min welcome to the Liberal’s world of screw the workers, screw the disenfranchised, screw those unable to defend themselves and screw ordinary Australians by cutting infrastructure and services whilst spending millions of public money in spinning how they are helping ordinary Australians, when what they really mean by ordinary Australians is those on such a good wicket they make up the top 5% of the population.

    Yet their supporters don’t have any problem with this and go out of their way to defend them in screwing parts of the population, then jumping on Labor when they come in to fix those essential things the Liberal governments have dismantled or reduced.

    We have with America an example of what unbridled free markets and privatisation eventually does to a country whilst governments pay out huge largess to the elite top small percentage of the population and to the big businesses who are not the biggest employers or tax payers.

    Yet the Liberals here, as we saw with Howard and has continued more so with Abbott, want to race headlong down the same path, and guess who they will blame when Australia ends up like America sometime down the track if the Liberals ever do get power? Labor of course.

  353. “Nil is good for a laugh, he likes to quote the Telegraph and The Australian.”

    Actually I quoted Albanese’s own words

    http://www.pm.gov.au/press-office/transcript-joint-press-conference-canberra-18

    “As you would be aware, Mr Joyce has indicated, and we have a difference as with regard to interpretation of that in terms of timing, but he indicated that obviously if planes kept being grounded at a rate of two a week it would reach some point whereby there were a range of aircraft grounded, and therefore the airline would not operate.”

    I am not making a stand for Qantas or the Unions. But this thread is about some conspiracy between Hockey and Qantas. Apparently Hockey knew and did not tell anyone therefore leaving thousands stranded.

    What a load of crap.

  354. But Hockey said so, he said everyone knew and has been directly quoted as saying he knew weeks before the even Qantas was planning on grounding its fleet.

    What Albenese said is there is a difference of interpretation, but Joyce indicated if planes continued to be grounded at two a week then at some point all would have to be grounded. That is not what you are trying to make Albenese was stating at all.

    The problem for Joyce is that planes were not longer being grounded at two a week as the pilots had called off their planned action and the other workers involved in disputes with Qantas had postponed their actions for a considerable time, so the action Joyce took and the timing of it are very suspect.

    Also there is the fact he planned it well before and not as a contingency but it appears as a deliberate plot to cause the maximum harm to the Australian public and economy. If a union had done that then you and the rest of the right, but especially the opposition, would have been screaming blue murder and demanding all unions be shut down immediately.

    So workers take action to protect their jobs = bad
    The wealthy harm the economy and disrupt the public so they can make more money for themselves = good.

  355. What did Hockey actually say.??

    I think he said there were rumours the fleet could be grounded which apparently everybody knew about.

    Your back on your conspiracy theories again which you have no evidence for but it is what you want to believe.

    It is why I never trust anything you people say. What you believe could have happened becomes facts in your brain even if they are not true.

  356. Mr. Abbott made a statement that did not get much coverage when he made it. He said that there was no way he would revisit WorkChoices UNLESS there was are call form the business world to do so. I think he added that it was up to them to

    I do remember him saying that CU. It was some time ago and I can’t remember whether I read it here in a link or heard it from ABC news. The crucial sentence is the one I’ve bolded in the quote from your comment.

    Liealot is laying the groundwork to impose SerfChoices when/if he wins the next election while shifting responsibility for breaking another promise. He will claim that the business world made him do it and that things had changed since he made that promise.

    Apparently, changing policy in the face of different circumstances or situations is a luxury only afforded to the Liars Party. For the ALP to do so is an appalling sin only surpassed by the crucifixion.

    Neil @4.51pm 5/11, read what you have just written! The groundings referred to are limited groundings as a result of industrial action, which is what Albanese would have been told, not grounding the entire passenger fleet and lockout, by management.

    Joyce was disingenuous in the extreme about what form the grounding would take. He didn’t exactly lie, but he sure as hell didn’t tell the whole truth. Just like the Murdochracy-cherry picking the information they allow the public access to.

    Shane- people in the media have access to information we do not have. They obviously knew about the rumours as did Hockey. They had been circulating for weeks

    If they knew about the rumours for weeks why did none of the media outlets report on them? Zero mention of these all pervading rumours wafting around the corridors of power. It seems the only one who knew about these “rumours” was Sloppy. So what does that tell you?

    Go Sue @7.36am! WRT “A gifted piece of writing”, the author is obviously looking to a career change as a fiction writer. This is a test piece.

    ME @9.18am, that should please shareholders no end seeing they haven’t been paid a dividend for 3 years!

    @9.34am, you just don’t understand, ME, they’ll get the money from the sky, the same place they get their policies. Obviously they’re not going to get it from the budget and current policies.

    Robb’s fine tooth comb seems not to have worked. They haven’t trumpeted the $70bn in savings they confidently predicted would be found to fund their laughable policies. And seeing their only plan is to cut taxes and consequently revenue, it seems unlikely that even if they intended to keep their promises and blood pledges, they’d be able to fund any of them.

    Min, I am surprised. Fancy Mr Baillieu doing something like that! No wonder he and O’Farrell were so interested in the outcome of FWA’s ruling on the Qantas affair. I’d suggest that nurses and others in NSW should prepare themselves for a similar betrayal.

    Neil, I rest my case. Your link shows that Albanese was talking about planes being grounded as a result of industrial action by the workforce and not a blanket grounding and lockout by management.

    The thread is not solely about what Hockey knew, but about who knew what and when, across the board. Hockey put himself in the picture with his lame story, directly contradicting Liealot, btw, about phantom rumours apparently circulating the corridors of Parliament House, to which it seems only Hockey was privy.

    Obviously the press didn’t know anything or it would have been widely reported, don’t you think? Or is it your theory that the press had their news finding antannae switched off? And don’t you find it odd that out of all the MPs and Senators wandering around parliament House, only Hockey heard the rumours?

    A cynical person would have to draw the conclusion that Hockey’s “rumours” were a figment of his imagination or just a straight out lie to cover Liealot’s arse.

    To quote you, “Mr Hockey,

    What a load of crap.

  357. Jane

    Joyce has stated that he told the govt many times that the airline could be shut down. Mate this must have been mentioned a million times. You say that I repeat myself. i have to because you conviently forget previous posts.

    Mentioning Hockey your way of diverting attention back onto the Coalition and away from your Lords and Masters. That is the whole point of this post.

  358. I posted what Hockey said Neil, which was a direct quote, and he did not say “rumours”, he said he had heard weeks ago (i.e. before the event) that Qantas is considering grounding its fleet. He did not say he heard “rumours” that Qantas is considering grounding its fleet, but they “are” considering it.

    His other quote that is on the record also contain the word “rumour”. (bold mine)

    While the government maintained yesterday it had no prior knowledge of the plan by Qantas to ground its fleet and lock out its workforce, it leapt on an admission by the shadow treasurer, Joe Hockey, that he knew ”weeks ago”. ”[Qantas has] been saying it around Parliament House for the last few weeks. Everyone in Parliament House knew,” Mr Hockey told the ABC’s 7.30 Report.

    How did everyone “knew” turn into a “rumour”.

    You keep going about not trusting others here in what they say whilst also continually labelling Labor and their supporters liars, but you engage in misdirections, misquoting and supporting

  359. Where did Joyce tell the government Neil. It is not quoted anywhere and the government has denied it. It is only Joyce’s assertion that he did and Hockey going around telling all and sundry that “everyone knew”.

    Everyone it seems but the government, the shareholders, the pilots, the workers, the ticket holders and the public.

  360. “How did everyone “knew” turn into a “rumour”.”

    Because everyone knew about the rumour. He did not say he knew they were going to ground the fleet but that it was a rumour.

    You are just trying to divert attention away from the ALP.

  361. Adrian it was quoted in the ABC and the govt has not denied it. They have said they were not told there was going to be a lock out. They have not denied they were told the airline might shut down

    FROM MY PREVIOUS POST

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3351862.htm

    “FRAN KELLY: Had you ever suggested to a minister, any minister, that grounding the airline was the possible option that would trigger an end to this?

    ALAN JOYCE: Yes, on multiple occasions I said that was a possibility.

    FRANK KELLY: That you would, that you would have to ground the fleet?

    ALAN JOYCE: I said on multiple occasions we could get to a stage where we’d have to ground the airline. That is how bad this was and that was made very clear.”

  362. Hi Christine Says Hi Welcome 🙂

    You may be interested in the How To tab at the top of the page for formatting tips.

    You seem to be wanting to use blockquote code to enhance your posts 😉 Don’t hesitate to ask if you need a hand…

    Thank you Bacchus! 🙂

  363. You keep quoting Alan Joyce back at us, a man who has lied, but the government has denied they were told Alan Joyce would shut down the entire fleet and he gave no one notice of when he would do so, even though it appears he planned for when it beforehand.

    The incongruous thing in your attacks against the government whilst defending Hockey is that you are saying Hockey was not told even though he says he knew weeks before but you say the government was told even though they deny it. Now you are saying that Alan Joyce told everyone but you keep saying Hockey was not told only heard “rumours” even though Hockey has never used the word “rumour”.

    You are starting to go on you merry-go-round Neil, where you just keep reiterating the same thing over and over in response to anything that counters your argument or contention.

    Neil, Hockey never ever said “rumour” in anything I have read or that is a direct quote of his on air or in the papers. So where did he say “rumour”, your are adding something he never said to his statements.

    You are very lamely trying to divert attention away from Hockey.

  364. “but the government has denied they were told Alan Joyce would shut down the entire fleet ”

    Well if you have a link for this I would like to see it. I have seen Albanese say he was not told there would be a lock out or there would be a shut down and lock out.

    I have not seen him say he was not told the fleet may shut down.

    We have this
    “but he indicated that obviously if planes kept being grounded at a rate of two a week it would reach some point whereby there were a range of aircraft grounded, and therefore the airline would not operate.”

    Obviously there were rumours floating around which is all Hockey was trying to say. And you are attacking the people “not in govt again” while giving a free pass to the ALP.

    So we have Joyce vs Albanese.

    I believe Joyce

  365. Joyce has stated that he told the govt many times that the airline could be shut down.

    as a result of industrial action, not a blanket grounding and lockout by management, Neil. We must have pointed it out and provided links for you a million times, but apparently you conveniently “forget” previous comments.

    And it’s all too obvious that nobody except Sloppy knew about it. He certainly hasn’t been backed up in his claim by Liealot, his colleagues or the Press Gallery. How can this be if everyone in Parliament House knew?

    i think you’re trying to divert attention away from the fact that Sloppy had the information about Joyce’s intentions and told absolutely no one.

  366. I wish you luck. You will need it,if you are going to convince Neil of anything.

    The rest of us I believe are happy to see new opinions.

    Neil is one of our pets. We have had to deal with much worse than him.

    All we have to do, is remeber to respect one another and everything flows wondefully.

    Thank you, Catching Up. I also believe in respect and am glad to be somewhere it is held in regard. Also, I do like to share and hear the opinions of others.

    As you’ve also probably guessed, I’m a bit of a rambler but I do ~ usually ~ get there in the end.

    As for Neil, I’m not really in the business of convincing anyone. I just say my say and if people don’t agree, well, I might say something back, hehe.

  367. Oh blow, my blockquote thingy didn’t work. *Sigh*. Maybe next time 🙂

    Catching Up’s quote ends with “wonderfully”.

  368. “i think you’re trying to divert attention away from the fact that Sloppy had the information about Joyce’s intentions and told absolutely no one.”

    Really?? Any evidence for that??

    Anyway humans are not like that. If Hockey knew he would have told someone and the story would have leaked. And who told Hockey??

    It is very sad that you are trying to defend one of the most useless govts in our history.

  369. Talk about trying to twist things around Neil.

    You are attributing something to Albanese he never inferred or said and you are attributing something different to Hockey in something he never inferred or said.

    You keep throwing in words or inferences that were not made by either man and use that as the basis of your argument whilst quoting the same things over that don’t support your inference.

    So the old fall back of attempting to divert and calling someone a liar where there is no evidence for that person lying whilst believing others where there is circumstantial evidence they did lie or at the minimum stretch the truth.

    As I stated, as an assault on Albanese you are quoting Joyce in an interview where he said everyone was told and you take his word for that, which then must include Hockey, but you then say Hockey wasn’t told, only knew of a “rumour”, a word he didn’t use, but he did say he knew weeks before of a plan to ground the fleet.

    So did Joyce tell everyone, which you have just stated you believe as you say he’s not lying, or in some mysterious way was Hockey exempt from everyone, even though Hockey himself has said he was one of the everyone?

  370. I think the Add-on site for that gives you some help.

    To keep it simple you only need xhtmlXtra function for this site and can disable the others unless you blog outside of WordPress, though most blogs use xhtml.

    Once the add-on is installed, right click in the reply box and you will see the bbXtra items at the top of the popup menu. Select the text you want to add formatting to, right click and select xhtmlXtra then the formatting you want.

    Quote comes under the Clipboard sub-item.

  371. Actually this post is like Wixxy’s last post. Very deceitful.

    When we should be talking about Qantas, Unions, Federal govt etc. TomR manages to turn this dispute into some sort of conspiracy theory between Qantas and the Coalition.

  372. “NSW was first to begin its campaign, with Premier Barry O’Farrell stressing the benefits of Sydney.”

    Which started off with “the PM needs to understand….”

    Good way to get one on side.

  373. Creative?? More like deluded.

    If Joyce told Hockey there would be a shut down and lock out of Qantas on the date that it was going to occur, do you really think Hockey would not tell anybody??

  374. So did I. You were referring to Wixxy’s post were you??

    Actually the people who wrote both posts are deluded.

  375. The Board of Qantas should be invited to the next Senate inquiry. Mr. Joyce spent too much time at the last one, convincing the committee that he was completely responsible for the lockout and all the actions taken, I assume in the last fourteen months. Mr. Joyce is a tool of the Board.

    If so, why was it necessary for a Board Saturday morning?

    This is misleading. I am sure that the Board has the final say and this is why the meeting is necessary. The Board must take full responsibility for the actions of Mr. Joyce.

    Therefore, members of the Board should be facing the Senate. Mr. Joyce is only an employee of the Board.

    It was unclear, in the ‘make Mr. Joyce look good” article, if Mr. Cosgrove was interviewed for the article.

    It is telling that the media was following Mr. Joyce around last Saturday and taken into the command centre set up to organise the shutdown. One could day it was a militarily exercise.

  376. Here you go Neil. What about writing a Topic for the Café. With your approval, I will email you and we can set it up for you to do a Guest Post.

  377. “Actually the people who wrote both posts are deluded.”

    Neil, has it ever struck you that there are a great many deluded people, if you are correct.

    Do not worry, I have noticed some journalists getting themselves in a tangle while attempting to support Qantas and attack the PM.

    The problem being Neil, there are too many inconvenient facts that have to be ignored.

    This is true even when one lives in an post fact era.

  378. Well Wixxy was proven wrong. O’Farrel is not going to send the Nuclear waste to Kemps Creek . It is going to Lidcombe.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/kemps-creek-spared-radioactive-waste-but-contaminated-soil-may-be-dumped-elsewhere-in-nsw/story-e6freuzi-1226181281010

    “RADIOACTIVE waste dug up in Hunters Hill will not be dumped at Kemps Creek, the NSW Government announced today, but the opposition says another NSW community could now be the site where material will be dumped.”

    And if Joyce told Hockey when the lock down was going to occur, Hockey would have blabbed to everybody.

  379. Neil, you are joking. Lidcombe is better.

    Neil, do you know Sydney. That is near the centre.

    Why not leave it at Hunters Hill then.I am sure the diet can be made safe.

    Yes, no one will be able to buy or live on the blocks. Might even lower the value.

    Of course non of this happens at Lidcombe.

    Only foals live there.

    By the way no said Mr. O’Farrell was sending the waste to Kemp’s creek. There was a strong rumour that he was.

    Now, Neil you know about rumours, as you do put great faith in them.

    You are right, both Mr. Abbott and Mr. Hockey could not help babbling.

    I do not remember seeing anywhere, that said they knew the details.

    I believe Mr. Joyce when he said the decision was made to go ahead last Saturday morning.

    I do not believe him when he said that the decision was made to lockout was made Saturday morning.

    I believe that Mr. Abbott was co-opted, along with the Premiers to put out demands on the PM, that fitted in with Qantas ongoing plans on Thursday.

    I do not believe in coincidences, well not that many..

  380. “Up to 5000 tonnes of contaminated soil from the site of a former uranium smelter at Hunters Hill was to have been trucked to Kemps Creek, near Penrith, allowing the sale of three blocks of land in the waterside suburb. ”

    Neil, noticed it is being done to allow the sale of three blocks. I also it is also to protect the value of the surrounding blocks.

    It is sealed and I assume safe on the site it is on now. It has been this way for thirteen years.

  381. Neil, the evidence comes from Sloppy himself. He has confirmed that he told no one about what he allegedly heard in the corridors of Parliament House. He was interviewed on radio and repeated that he told noone, he didn’t even tell his boss, Liealot.

    It’s out there in the public domain, Neil, and how would we know all this if Sloppy hadn’t spilled his guts to the press after Joyce grounded the entire passenger fleet?

    And if Joyce told Hockey when the lock down was going to occur, Hockey would have blabbed to everybody.

    Joyce didn’t speak to Sloppy. Where did you get that idea? He claims his information came from the rumour mill at Parliament House and oddly enough said not a word about it?

    Don’t you find it the least bit odd that Sloppy would have kept that juicy information all to himself, not even telling Liealot, considering he’s such a blabber mouth?

  382. Jane

    I listened to the whole interview between Hockey and Sales in the link that TomR gave ( all 6.5minutes).

    Hockey did say that Qantas officials had been in Parliament House for weeks telling people publicly and privately there could be a grounding of the fleet if the dispute gets worse and that Albanese did nothing about it.

    You are trying to manufacture a story that does not exist.

  383. TomR manages to turn this dispute into some sort of conspiracy theory between Qantas and the Coalition.

    I never alluded to there being a conspiracy nil. I did say that, if, as hockey had declared, that he was aware of an imminent grounding of hte fleet, it is disgusting that he didn’t warn someone. Trying to say that I am creating a sonspiracy is totally untrue.

    What is interesting is, now that light has finally been shone on this debacle, as it should have done initially, we find that hockey may himself have been a little mischeavous with his statement, and that the Government did not have any foreknowledge of an imminent grounding. Any grounding, if it did occur, would have been a ‘slow-cook’ type, as highlighted by your helpfull links (which I had already referred too)

    Simply, hockey tried to declare that the Government had been warned, which was untrue, and that had been left floating out there for the general public to make of what they will. That the msm allowed this to sit unchallenged for so long re-inforces Doug Camerons assessment of them. They are a threat to democracy. They allow lies to sit and foment, and then it is up to a senate hearing to uncover the truth, and expose hockey as being deliberately misleading, and the msm as toothless barrackers.

    Bacchus has it correct here

    https://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2011/11/03/nothing-to-see-here/#comment-43521

    If there is anything in this post is about conspiracy theories nil, it is about the role of our msm, and how they continue to fail our society and political process by there apparent partisan behaviour

  384. Joyce said under oath at the Senate enquiry that he told the govt many times that the Qantas fleet could be grounded.

    I did say that, if, as hockey had declared, that he was aware of an imminent grounding of hte fleet, it is disgusting that he didn’t warn someone.”

    Too bad he didn’t say that. He was told if the dispute gets worse the fleet may be grounded. He has stated he did not learn about the lock out until 4.45PM on Saturday.

    You are just trying to divert attention away from the govt failures and create a story that does not exist.

    I would like to know what Albanese was told.

    His VERY SPECIFIC answer (not told about a lock out rather than shut down) leads me to believe that Albanese is hiding something.

  385. That is the entire point nil. Albanese was very specific about what he was told. It was proven that this was correct. hockey was deliberately obtuse, and deliberately left the impression that the Government, and himself, had been forewarned of something similar to what transpired actually happening. This was false. This was left unchallenged and allowed to sit unchallenged for days, until the senate hearing. Then hockey came clean (apparently)

    Our msm, if they had any use, would have exposed this well before the senate hearing.

    It reminds me of the BER days, when Gillard used to get up in parliament and daily correct the oo’s rubbish they printed that day

  386. and deliberately left the impression that the Government, and himself, had been forewarned of something similar to what transpired actually happening.”

    I think that is pretty true. The govt was warned about a possible shut down. Joyce said so under oath. No-one knew that there would be a lock out however.

    And Albanese was being VERY SPECIFIC because he wanted to give the impression that he did not know about a shut down as well as a lock out.

    He was being deceitful. And you are trying to divert attention from the ALP.

    His VERY SPECIFIC answer leads me to believe that he told the truth but the the whole truth.

  387. Tom, and yet round and round it goes and where it stops nobody knows…BER rorts, Pink Batts Kill People, turn back the boats, stop the NBN.

    Now there latter is of interest..does Abbott means that once he has The Power that everyone already connected will have the lines or whatever pulled out of their naturestrips. It brought this one to mind.

  388. The govt was warned about a possible shut down

    IF the strikes escalated . . . . . . They didn’t.

    IF planes continued to be grounded, until effectively the fleet would be grounded if enough were grounded due to strikes. . . . . there were none grounded at the time (to my knowledge)

    Nowhere did he say he would arbitrarily close the fleet down. Which explains why nobody had any idea he would do it (except perhaps hockey)

  389. Tom, Hockey knew all about it…I suspect that he might have heard a rumour while chewing on his Quarter Pounder in the grounds of parliament house. At least that’s where he said he heard the rumour, however if it wasn’t a Quarter Pounder that he was chewing on I will stand corrected.

  390. I posted this two days ago but it’s worth repeating …for Nil…

    From Ash’s blog… re grounding planes….

    Because it seems, in later testimony by unions and engineers, Qantas had very good reason to ground its fleet.

    The representative of the engineers union mentioned that of the 5 planes Qantas had originally ‘grounded’ in the week leading up to the lock out, 4 were scheduled for disposal.

    One was listed as for sale since March of 2011.

    Of the 5 planes, all were in need of MAJOR service. And in business speak, MAJOR service cost MAJOR bucks. So by grounding 5 planes that could not fly anyway, Qantas attempted to deceive the public that it was the problem of unions when it was a concerted and deliberate falsehood.

  391. Sorry Pip..whose blog is that. If you think that it’s a good’un we’ll add it to the Blog Roll, I’m certain that this will be ok with the boss. Do you have a link for that one.

  392. Have we had this one already, what the heck it’s worth a repeat.

    Could the Daily Telegraph get any more gushier in it’s approval of Alan Joyce..OMG girls we had better hang around just so that we can get a whiff of his..umm..underarm deodorant..

    Deliciously geeky??? I know deliciously geeky and Alan Joyce most definitely isn’t it….

    IT was not the smell of avgas, nor the glamour of flying, that lured the young Alan Joyce into aviation.
    It was pure nerdiness. Joyce, son of a Dublin cleaner and a factory worker, had never been on a plane until the age of 22, in his first job as an Aer Lingus operations research analyst.

    Joyce had applied for the job only because it sounded deliciously geeky: full of the numbers and probabilities he adored as a mathematics and physics student at Trinity College, Dublin.

  393. Thank you Pip, I know of that blog but for the life of me couldn’t remember how to spell it…for some unknown reason…as in, it’s a really complicated name.

  394. Neil is going around in circles and is in about his ninth orbit so it is of no use continuing to discuss this with him. He has his mind set of single hand finger count for responses and the usual “we are trying to shift from Labor, we are liars, the ALP are liars etc.”

    So when he reached the pinky in his response count he just goes back to the thumb and counts each finger over, not always in any order, but none the less repeated ad nauseum.

    If you want to keep getting the same responses and bang your head against a brick wall, no matter what you quote, what sources you give and what facts your reveal then it’s your bloody forehead.

  395. I’ve noticed that with Neil too. I’m convinced he’s just trying to have fun with everybody because I can’t believe that an adult human being can be so obstinate.

  396. Roswell, are you sure about that Tony Abbott assured everyone that he had a flight booked the same weekend as Joyce called the strike.

  397. “Obviously the press didn’t know anything or it would have been widely reported’

    There is another option, they withheld information fro, the public.

  398. I’m inclined to think the press shield Abbott. The avoidance of the issue suggest there’s a story in it somewhere.

  399. “Nope Min, deliciously geeky he’s not.”

    But focus on figures, he is. I mean numbers, not humans.

    problem is that were human beings are involved, the figures rarely add up.

  400. “Tom, Hockey knew all about it”

    What a load of CRAP.

    It is amazing how people believe what they want to believe. You avoiding the truth that the govt was asleep.

    You have NO evidence for this crap.

    I would like to know what Albanese knew. He was never pressed by the media.

    He gave a VERY SPECIFIC answer because he was hiding other facts.

  401. Roswell i take affront. My grand fathher was lest than 5′ 4′ .

    He was one of the biggest and greatest man I have known.

    He rode in pony races in the early years of last century.

    Then I was married to a creep that used his lack of size to challenge those who could not hit back. The biigest of cowards I have ever known.

  402. There’s nothing wrong with small men, they just don’t appeal to me. My own father was short but it didn’t deter me from respecting him. Size doesn’t matter in some things.

  403. From TomR’s link

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-02/albanese-renews-attack-over-qantas/3614710

    “Mr Albanese cited a report given to Qantas on October 20, more than a week before the lockout, on the safety implications of a lockout of its workforce – suggesting Qantas was planning a grounding well in advance.”

    If Albanese knew about this report before the lock out he would have been aware that something was about to happen.

    But our useless media never presses the govt on anything.

    Whenever the govt stuffs up ALP supporters ALWAYS try to divert attention from the ALP.

  404. I hope Hansard will be available from tomorrow. In Hansard we will be able to read what the engineers know of the “grounded planes”. The committee have 3 weeks to examine the evidence then Joyce will be back. It will be interesting to see if any of his statements change.

  405. “Tom, Hockey knew all about it”

    Well Hockey said this

    “Mr Hockey moved to clarify what he had said, telling ABC News Breakfast this morning the Opposition had not heard about the lockout of workers until “4:45[pm] on Saturday”.

    “Qantas had not suggested there was going to be a lockout at any previous time to that,” he said.”

  406. If you believe Hockey then it goes without saying that you don’t believe Abbott. They’ve been spinning different yarns. One is clearly lying.

  407. ???

    Did you read Hockey’s statement i gave at 10.08PM??? Hockey said he knew nothing of the lock out until 4.45PM Saturday.

    Both Abbotts and Hockeys statements are identical. Nobody knew about the lock out since Joyce did not decide until Saturday.

    The only person telling lies is YOU Mr Roswell.

  408. Neil, the bottom line is that Qantas blew it.

    The proof of this, is that Qantas is spending hundreds of million dollars to get themselves out of the hole they have dug.

    Labor has seen off Telstra when they tried similar tactics. I expect the same outcome for Qantas.

  409. “Neil, the bottom line is that Qantas blew it.”

    Really?? You know everything do you??

    If Qantas did not act the Unions would have had rolling stoppages for months. Up to and through Christmas/ New year.

    And ROSWELL I am still waiting for links where you show that Abbott and Hockey had stories that did not match.

  410. Neil, nice try but no cigar. Hockey claimed in an interview that “everybody knew about it because of the rumours which had been circulating in Parliament House “for weeks”, although nobody else had, including Liealot.

  411. No he didn’t jane. You people say i keep repeating myself. I have to.

    The rumours were about a shut down which everybody had heard about.

    Hockey claimed he did not know about the lock out until it happened. Abbott said the same thing.

    If I needed a human being to tell false witness against another human being I would pick an ALP supporter because you are good at bearing false witness.

  412. Well Neil the planes are back in the sky. I believe that is a fact. If not please show me where I am wrong.

    The parties have 21 days to solve their differences, If not, FWA will settle it for them.

    Qantas did have alternative actions they could have taken.

    The government acted as soon as Qantas accelerated the dispute. It was Qantas that did this, not the union.

    Yes, Qantas blew it. They took the wrong action.

    They are now playing the price.

    people did not have to be left stranded.

    All the twisting and turning that you can come up will not change this.

  413. and @11.47 Nil finally lost the plot

    “If I needed a human being to tell false witness………bearing false witness.”

    lol

  414. Congratulations Neil – you’ve done exceptionally well on this thread. You’ve managed to keep your circular argument going for three days now! Is that a record for one thread? 😉

  415. Neil, the government does not have to respond as Qantas or the Opposition demands.

    The government can and did make the choice as to what was the best course of action to take.

    From the result that was achieved, they choose the right action.

    The PLANES ARE BACK IN THE AIR IN 33 HOURS.

    The government is not embroiled in a private company industrial dispute.

    This is how it should be.

  416. Qantas boss never warned of grounding: Albanese
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-31/qantas-boss-never-warned-of-grounding3a-albanese/3610804/?site=melbourne

    Transport Minister Anthony Albanese has angrily contradicted claims by Qantas boss Alan Joyce that he told the Federal Government “on multiple occasions” that he might ground the airline’s fleet.

    and
    Fronting a news conference in Sydney this morning, Mr Joyce said grounding the fleet “was not a surprise to anybody”.

    “We have been talking about it for weeks, months about the pain this was causing Qantas,” Mr Joyce said.

    But at a press conference this afternoon, a visibly annoyed Mr Albanese described three meetings he had convened with Mr Joyce, union boss Tony Sheldon and himself, where “at no stage” did Mr Joyce say Qantas would initiate a lockout and grounding.

    Prime Minister Julia Gillard said she did not accept that Qantas’s only choice on Saturday was “to take the extreme action” of grounding all planes and “leaving tens of thousands of passengers stranded”.

    She also denied newspaper reports that Mr Joyce had attempted to contact her before grounding aircraft.

    “That is untrue and Mr Joyce has confirmed today that that is untrue,” she told a press conference.

    ***and many viewers would have seen Mr. Albanese making this statement:-
    .
    Mr Albanese went through a detailed timeline of telephone calls between himself and Qantas in which he rang Mr Joyce three times on Saturday after one of his staff had been alerted of the impending action.

    He said it was only when Mr Joyce finally rang back that he got an indication the Qantas fleet would be grounded.

    “That was the first occasion in which Mr Joyce or anyone else from Qantas had ever raised the issue of a lockout,” Mr Albanese told reporters.

    ***Mr. Alan Joyce later confirmed Mr. Albanese’s statement to the Senate Enquiry.

    He said when he heard Mr Joyce make his claims on radio about warning the Government of a lockout he rang the Qantas boss, who then agreed the warning was never made.

    “He will confirm that at no stage did Qantas, Mr Joyce or anyone else raise with me the possibility of a lockout of the Qantas workforce until we had that conversation (Saturday) afternoon,” Mr Albanese said

    It’s little wonder there was confusion when the Qantas CEO wasn’t above making an untrue statement on the national broadcaster.

  417. “Is that a record for one thread?”

    Most probably. But Bacchus i have to keep repeating myself because they keep making the same false statements.

    Roswell has just come out and said “In a nutshell, Abbott said the opposition knew absolutely nothing. Hockey said they did.”

    Abbott and Hockey both said they did not know about the lock out until it happened.

    What am I supposed to do?? Let statements like that go unchallenged???

  418. 😆 Once again, really well done Neil! I think you’ve found a formula. I wonder how long you can milk it? 😉

  419. Bacchus, Neil has kept going for three days, but if you look, the argument has moved on.

    Neil is the only one repeating himself.

    I think we have stated our case very clearly for anyone that looks in at the site.

    We can thank Neil for that.

    I am sure that Neil will have the same beliefs in a couple of years.

    That is his problem, not ours.

  420. This is for Nil…..everyone else has moved on…

    Government seizes on Hockey’s Qantas comments
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-01/hockey-comments-on-qantas-grounding/3613936?section=business

    ***Hockey big notes himself, then “can’t recall” !

    Government seizes on Hockey’s Qantas comments
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-02/albanese-renews-attack-over-qantas/3614710/?site=newcastle

    ***Abbott did his usual cut and run from an interview with the press.
    Abbott denies prior knowledge of Qantas grounding
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-01/abbott-denies-prior-qantas-grounding-knowledge/3613094

    This morning, Mr Abbott was asked three questions by journalists about what he knew and when.

    He was first asked when “on Saturday” he found out about the grounding, to which he replied “just before five o’clock”.

    But later in the press conference journalists asked if anyone from Qantas spoke to him or someone from his office “prior to Saturday” about a possible grounding, but he avoided the question.

    The journalists persisted: “Was your office forewarned of the dispute – can you answer that?”

    “My office was in regular contact with Qantas. Qantas, as anyone in Parliament House would know, have basically been patrolling the corridors of Parliament House for weeks now alerting people to the seriousness of the dispute,” Mr Abbott replied before terminating the press conference.

  421. NEIL,
    THERE’S NO NEED TO SHOUT !

    The word lock-out was never used until Mr. Joyce announced it on the Saturday. ‘Grounded’, yes, ‘lock-out’, NO.

    Grounding the ENTIRE FLEET was never suggested until that speech by Joyce
    on the Saturday afternoon.

    MOVE ON !

  422. Neil, all the public is concerned about is that the planes are back in the air.

    They do not care how that come about.

  423. Very true CU & Pip, but all Neil is doing is repeating his same inane “talking points” over and over. These have been repeatedly and decisively rebuffed over and over and over. He’s not introducing anything new into the debate – in short, he’s just trolling, very successfully 😉

  424. Catching up,
    the argument has moved on. Snap ! 😀

    Bacchus,
    he’s just trolling, very successfully.

    yes he is, and I’m not playing his silly game any more !

    It’s just like dealing with a two year old !!

  425. Bacchus, [ on the circular thread ]
    re your comment at 12.07pm,
    Bacchus
    Congratulations Neil – you’ve done exceptionally well on this thread. You’ve managed to keep your circular argument going for three days now! Is that a record for one thread?

    I went back to the 3rd, and there is Tom R @ 11.46am,
    Tom R
    Penny Wong articulates clearly the misrepresentation that went on in hte brief time this had legs

    SABRA LANE: So you’re saying that this is a lie, that Qantas is rewriting history?

    PENNY WONG: I’m saying that it’s very important that when people talk about grounding, they are clear about the distinction between grounding as a result of engineer industrial action and grounding as a result of an employer making a unilateral decision to lock out its entire workforce and ground the entire fleet.

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3353745.htm

    The distinction here is the intermittent grounding of planes due to industrial action, and the wholesale grounding of a fleet over what could only be described as a dummy spit to match that displayed by the opposition and their oracle after the last election.

  426. Pip @ 1.13

    And possibly we will also find out about the distinction between grounding of planes

    due to regular maintenance
    in preparation of a sale
    engineers industrial action
    CEO decision to ground the whole fleet / industrial action of employer.

    Therein lies the truth and the beginning of Tom R’s article
    “In the wake of the extraordinary action taken by Qantas in grounding their fleet”

  427. Sue, thanks to our decisive PM, the planes were back in the air in 33 hours. The PM or not embroiled in a IR dispute between a Private company and their workers. The matter in now where it should be, FWA.

  428. These have been repeatedly and decisively rebuffed over and over and over.

    Sorry Bacchus I do not agree. You lot keep bringing up the same stuff which does not rebuff my points.

    He’s not introducing anything new into the debate

    I agree with that but I am not trolling. I keep saying the same things because they go in one ear and out the other side with you lot.

    Abbott and Hockey have not made conflicting statements as Roswell claims. They both said they heard about the lock out on Saturday.

    And I believe Joyce when he states he told the govt that a shut down was possible for whatever reason you lot claim. Albanese did not take it serious enough.

  429. Neil, re Abbott and Hockey have not made conflicting statements as Roswell claims.

    But Abbott’s attack was blunted by a self-inflicted wound.

    Asked by reporters whether Qantas had forewarned him about the grounding, he obfuscated.

    “My office was in regular contact with Qantas,” was all he would say.

    A later clarification to parliament was muddied when his treasury spokesman Joe Hockey happily admitted Qantas had told him of the possible action weeks ago.

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/pm-relishes-qantas-fight-then-flies-out-20111104-1myk2.html

  430. http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/tony-abbott-faces-serious-questions-on-qantas-lock-out/story-e6frfq80-1226182561133

    “Mr Abbott told Parliament that on Saturday his office had been told of the Qantas action at about 4.15pm (AEDT) and he heard about it just before 5pm.

    “Let me reiterate, the first I heard about it was at about a quarter to five on Saturday afternoon,” he told Parliament.”

    They both claimed they heard about the lock out on Saturday.

    You are trying to manufacture a story that does not exist.

    Both sides were told a shut down could occur at some point in the future if the situation deteriorated. So a possible shut down was on the cards.

    Neither side of politics was told about a shut down and lock out.

    But if Albanese had any brains he should have seen a shut down coming.

  431. Well if Abbott told Parliament it would be in Hansard.

    It is standard ALP tactic to divert attention from themselves by bringing up some red herring.

  432. Hockey said in an interview he did not hear about the lock out until saturday.

    But lets keep talking about the people “not in govt”

    Moderator’s note: Time to move on from this issue, Neil.

  433. Neil, we do not and no matter how many times you say it, agree with what you say. We have told you why.

    What is important, which you ignore. is the PM took appropriate action soon as it was clear that Qantas had accellerated the dispute.

    Within five hours the matter was in court. By the way, Qantas lawyers where well prepared.

    Within 33 hours from Mr. Joyce’s announcment, the planes were back in the air. These are the facts.

  434. Neil, it does not matter if he seen a shut down coming. The government could not act until it came.

    Mr. Joyce attend three meeting with Mr. Albanese, in the eight days before the grounding of the fleet, once in Marrickville.

    At these meetings, Mr. Albanese was led to believe progress was being made. The unions as an act of good faith deferred action they were proposing to take.

    Mr. Joyce was busy planning to lock out the workers. To do this, he ground the fleet with three hours noticed.

    In my humble opinion, Mr. Joyce had made the decision to go ahead with the lockout. The decision that was made on Saturday, was to go ahead that day.

    In my humble opinion, Mr. Joyce was hoping the unions would walk out immediately. This did not occur. There appears to be evidence that Mr. Joyce was provoking the unions. Time will tell if that was true.

  435. Neil, no one is that interested in what Hockey said. It had no effect on the issue.

    What Mr. Albanese and the PM did, is what is important. They got the planes back into the air.

  436. Nil believes Joyce. Nil believes Hansard
    Hansard will have evidence on grounded planes.
    Joyce will be able to contribute to Hansard in 3 weeks.

    Today Joyce gets to negotiate with the engineers at FWA.
    WTF

  437. Sue, I think it is time that Mr. Joyce should be accompanied by members of the board. After all, Joyce is only an employee.

  438. Leave Hockey alone you lot. He has more important things to do like finding

    $11billlion
    $70 billion
    $12.3 billion

    Total $93.3 Billion and today is monday and that figure has been circulating around the coalition for days.

  439. Sue, he also has to clean up messes that Mr. Abbott keeps creating.

    It is not an easy life.

    The poor man also has to cope with Robb sniping at him, and wanting his job.

    Lying in wait in the background, is Mr. Turnbull.

    You are correct Sue, the man is having a hard time.

  440. Min

    I thought you said it is time to move on. I guess you changed your mind.

    I cannot believe you posted that stupid quote at 9.34AM.

    Albanese, Hockey, Abbott and other govt ministers were told there could be a shut down if the situation got worse. Qantas was in parliament house telling govt and Opposition ministers that there could be a shut down.

    Qantas obviously thought the situation had gotten worse.

    The govt was caught with its pants down. To try and divert a govt failing onto the Coalition is disgraceful.

    Editor’s note: Neil, people engage you here and are quite happy to do so. It’s a pity that you are attempting to create animosity against us elsewhere because we do actually engage with you. If you don’t like us then don’t bother with us.

  441. Min, if we have not been engaging for the last three days, I do not know what we have been doing.

    Neils problem is not that we do not engage, it is we do not agree. We also give reasons why.

  442. Abbott is releasing his anti dumping Policy.Mr. Abbott thanked Ms. Mirabella.

    That is something I have not heard of for years. I believe. Maybe someone can correct me.

    Cannot wait to see it.

    He is aiming it at Indonesia.

  443. Sue at 9.38
    I was thinking about this, thanks for combining the figures into one piece. I suppose the question is whether having ignored $11 billion during the last election, the media will ignore that & the other $82.3. On current form I think they will.
    No doubt the figure’ll be larger than this before the next election, at what tipping point I wonder would the MSM cry “enough”?

  444. BSA Bob
    The msm cry enough, well Phil Corey was pretty amazed about the latest $12.3Billion, but if that amazement lasts more than a day i would be surprised.

  445. Swan just said that the growth figures is still pretty good. It will have some effect on the deficit, but he is still saying they will meet it.

  446. Sue
    There’s the rub, I give the media’s current interest in the figures a day or so too.

    Neil
    Thanks for the admission that the Coalition’s figures are imaginary.

  447. That is correct. They are figments of your imagination. In the real world we will never know what they will be.

    I noticed you mentioned the alleged $11B black hole in the Coalition costings from the last election. Did you ever read what Treasury said??

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-09-01/treasury-finds-black-hole-in-coalition-costings/2245360

    The bottom line is that Treasury said that the Coaliton promises yielded a better bottom line. It just wasn’t the $11.5B improvement that the Coalition claimed.

    But Treasury analysis given to Tony Windsor and his fellow independents Rob Oakeshott and Bob Katter shows the Coalition’s promises would only add between $860 million and $4.5 billion to the bottom line.”

    Get that?? The Coalition claimed an $11.5B improvement but Treasury said it would be between $0.86M and $4.5B improvement.

    “Labor said its promises would improve the Budget bottom line by about $44 million over four years, but Treasury says it is actually more than that – about $106 million.”

    Get that?? Labors policies only improve the bottom line by $0.106B.

    So the Coalition policies were better according to treasury

  448. Neil, how about filling us in with Mr. Abbott’s new anti dumping policy, written up by Ms. Mirabella. Now that is new.

    Why is Mr. Abbott singling out Indonesia?

    How do anti dumping laws fit in with free trade?

  449. Neil at 11:13AM

    I’d like to see some real figures, too, Neil. That’s arguably the whole point of Cameo Tony; to avoid scrutiny, by running a prance and trance routine; and, thereby, avoid oversight of the (death by a) thousand cuts he has in store, and which he will have to reveal by and by. Having campaigned heavily on the basis of perceived costs and loss avoidance, (Behavioural)-Economics-Is-Boring Tony undoubtedly will be in the enviable position of having to explain all the relative losses, all the opportunity costs, and all the cuts his inchoate (chaotic?) policies imply, and in detail.

  450. Neil, do we really need to go down this track once again. have you anything new to say. Get that.

    Well BSA Bob mentioned the $11B. I wanted to correct his false statement. I enjoy telling ALP supporters the error of their ways.

    The bottom line is that the Coalition policies improved the budget by $0.86B to $4.5B.

    It just wasn’t the $11.5B that the Coalition claimed (according to treasury).

    But it was still better than labors policies.

    So why did the two Independent traitors side with Labor??

    I will keep repeating myself until I am thrown out of the Cafe.

  451. And there was a GFC Neil and how many times do we have to explain it to you.

    But you are so fixated by debt, even though ours is extremely low compared to other developed countries, that you would rather see all our infrastructure and services collapse and be run down just so a Liberal PM can brag about having surplus.

    Howard ran down our infrastructure so much it was hurting our economy, and that was his big business mates complaining. So what was Labor supposed to do Neil, chase a surplus over everything and continue to allow roads, bridges, ports, schools, hospitals, social services, business services, transport and all those other things that are Federal government responsibility run down.

    And did you know that O’Farrell was handed a surplus and blew well over $300 million in his first budget, and you know what his excuse was Neil?

    He had to go into debt to build neglected infrastructure.

    So how come it’s OK for a Liberal government to go into large debt to build neglected infrastructure but not a Labor government?

    Plus debt is a broken record with you. It’s nearly all you go on about, but the incongruous thing is that you make excuses for Howard’s debt when he treasurer and the Liberal State governments, it is on Labor you waffle droningly on about.

    Oh and yet again when attention is drawn to a Liberal party failure and a failing of their leader, Neil does a “look over there at Labor debt.”

    And again around in circles we go.

  452. ME, may I suggest we do not go down this path. It is off topic anyway. Tom R mention nothing about debt.

    The post has become very long. I am not sure if there is any more we can say on the matter.

    If Neil want s to bring up debt, maybe Open Thread is the place to go.

    I do not want to be rude to Neil, but we have been very patient.

  453. It was Sue that mentioned some numbers at 9.38AM followed by BSA Bob at 11.04AM who said “whether having ignored $11 billion during the last election,”

    I needed to comment on this because it is not the whole truth. The WHOLE trush is that the Coalitions costings were better than Labors. It just wasn’t the $11.5B the Coalition claimed.

    Do you want to talk about what Hockey said do you??

  454. Circle boy Neil @ 12.08pm
    I will keep repeating myself until I am thrown out of the Cafe.

    I’d like to see that….

  455. (It’s probably off topic, yet is tangentially related; Judith Sloan presenting her latest off-topic pitch for why proposed Qantas restructuring, Senator Xenophon’s Bill, and loci and gradients of power and economic rent-seeking (which rent doesn’t exist, err shouldn’t be seen to exist, so nothing to see here, or there) can be blithely talked around: Labour law, economics and the statutory right to strike.)

  456. Why don’t you grab a leg each and drag him down the stairs? I have heard that a bouncing head quickly acquires good sense.

  457. Roswell I think we could manage that too …not too sure that the acquisition of good sense applies to all though !

  458. Min
    I know it is off topic but this quote is GOLD and you will excuse me (please)

    “Hockey’s apologists claim he just has to run with the policies Abbott invents, but that excuse is wearing very thin. Hockeynomics looks like a dangerous cult – a world where Canberra increases services but cuts taxes, all while building up a massive surplus. No, it does not add up.”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/abbotts-gross-failure-of-economic-credibility-20111107-1n31k.html#ixzz1czHyXytM

  459. Neil, they are kinda talking about your favourite topic over on Open Thread.

    Maybe that is where you should go.

  460. Neil says I will keep repeating myself until I am thrown out of the Cafe

    I think we should keep ignoring him until he goes away.

  461. “I will keep repeating myself until I am thrown out of the Cafe.”

    Why Neil, you sound like it is a badge of honour to be thrown out of CW.

    Is this what you really want. Many would be sorry to see you go.

  462. Roswell, sadly I do not ignore him. I try to point out that others have views that do not gel with his.

    Roswell, why is it so hard to get him to see he is wasting his time repeating things so many times.

    It will not change my mind, because I do remember his arguments from last time he said it, and the time before that, before that……..

  463. Neil at 11.27
    Thanks for getting back to me.
    You quote these figures & cite references, but you make strange use of them. By your own admission Treasury said that at best Coalition policies would deliver considerably less than half of what they claimed, whereas Labor’s would’ve delivered more than double. Not sure that this is a good look.

  464. Well I guess the people who did the costings for Labor before the election was Treasury. So it is not surprising that Treasury agreed with the costings. Labors improvement in the budget went from $0.044B to $0.106B.

    The costings for the Coalition were done by a private firm and would have used a different method. According to Treasury the improvement in the budget was in the range $.86B and $4.5B.

    And treasury is highly politicised under Swan

  465. “Many would be sorry to see you go.”

    As a long time Neil sparring respondent I would be one of those.

  466. Nil conveniently omits the fact that it is the same Treasury Department that was there in Costello’s day.

    Bored now.

  467. Roswell, I don’t mean to be rude but Neil wouldn’t know if his elbow was on fire.

    I’ve been reviewing something that Grogs Gamut wrote a few months ago.

    Joe packs his bags for Saudi Arabia
    http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com/search/label/Economy?updated-max=2011-05-24T20%3A47%3A00%2B10%3A00&max-results=20

    Joe Hockey today gave his Budget Reply address at the National Press Club. The best you can say is it wasn’t as bad a last year, where he failed to outline the Budget cuts that Tony Abbott had said he would.

    To say it was not good would be kind. To say his answers to the questions from journalists afterwards was embarrassing would be accurate.

    I won’t go through them tonight (I don’t have a transcript, and also don’t have the time), suffice to say they were all on the money. They started with Samantha Maiden whose question Hockey completely non-answered and it got progressively worse until Laura Tingle asked him a question that had Hockey responding “It’s a fair question” which seemed to be code for “I have absolutely no idea and so will not answer it”.

    One could say the same about Tony Abbott.

  468. “The costings for the Coalition were done by a private firm and would have used a different method. According to ‘

    They sure did it differently. They did not bother with an audit. They did not question the figures. They just added then up.

    Yes, it was a diiferent method. It was a con.

  469. I keep saying the same things because they go in one ear and out the other side with you lot.

    That’s because our heads only need to see the things you say once and discard more of the same as being superfluous to requirements for inane Liars Party babble.

    But if Albanese had any brains he should have seen a shut down coming.

    Lol, Neil. Maybe his crystal ball was being repaired.

    Total $93.3 Billion and today is monday and that figure has been circulating around the coalition for days.

    But when did the government know and why didn’t the PM take action as soon as the clairvoyant said? Kevin Rudd has refused to comment leading to further speculation that he will challenge for the leadership within the next 10-15 years.

    Mirabella’s lipstick, if possible is redder and thicker than ever.

    She’s probably been feasting on some unfortunate elderly geriatric lawyer, CU

    So why did the two Independent traitors side with Labor??.

    I bring the word Independent to your notice, Neil. I trust you know what that means? You know, unaligned to any political party-independent!

  470. “I bring the word Independent to your notice, Neil.”

    That leads to an interesting question. When we elect our representatives do we give them the power to act on our behalf or are they there to do what the people who voted for them say.

    If Windsor and Oakshot asked the constituents did they want a Carbon tax or for them to side with Labor, the answer would have been NO.

    They went against the wishes of the people who voted for them.

    And Albanese was asleep. He was told many time about a possible shut down. i guess he did not think it would take place over a Melbourne Cup weekend. He was caught with his pants down.

  471. Nil
    Newspoll? The oo? Newsltd ?

    He will be there while James takes a seat at the committee investigating phone hacking.

  472. So if some ALP pollie does not fly Qantas you will of course be critical.

    Since Abbott is not flying Qantas it sounds like his trip is sponsored. I think people in Opposition do not have access to the same lurks and perks as people in govt.

    Wish the media would ask Albanese when Qantas first told him there could be a shut down. Bet you he would go blue in the face and not answer the question.

  473. Back to who is paying for the trip?
    Maybe the Libs are keen to spend the $30m slush fund from the mining industry – after all the mining industry may ask for the money back given Abbott’s failure to deliver even one of his bloated promises.

  474. What promises has Gillard delivered on??

    There will be no carbon tax under the govt I lead?? Oh wait she is bringing one in.

    She said she will fix up the asylum seeker issue. oh wait that is not fixed.

  475. It is aamazing watching the Nationals close to tears, complaining about the power the Greens have with 12% of the vote,

    Funny the Nationals have wag the tails of many governments with a similar percentage.

  476. “If Windsor and Oakshot asked the constituents did they want a Carbon tax or for them to side with Labor, the answer would have been NO.”

    The problem is that they did before the election. Therefore the answer from those who gave them their mandate must be yes.

  477. Neil, we now have on shore processing. That is an solution that many support.

    There is ongoing search still occurring for a regional solution. I predict that will come.

    We never get all we want in this life. Sometimes we have to wait.

    We do now have what was promised, a price on carbon emission. This was promised.

    We do NOT have a CARBON TAX

    The Opposition will soon find flogging a dead horse is not productive.

    The opposition is going nowhere as the horse is..

  478. The hate and bile plus threats coming out of the Opposition, now in the Senate is unbelievable.

    Do not they know there is a time to shut up.

    The galleries have emptied completely.

  479. Jane, it’s like talking to a radio !

    Or three short planks, Pip.

    If Windsor and Oakshot asked the constituents did they want a Carbon tax or for them to side with Labor, the answer would have been NO.

    Who is paying for the trip??

    You are, you twit. he’s gone to sniff David Cameron’s backside.

    And guess what, we’re getting a carbon pricing scheme transitioning into an ETS as promised during the election campaign by Julia gillard. Do try to keep up, Neil. It’s the Liars Party who will impose a carbon tax, given the chance. As usual, nice try but no cigar!

    The Opposition will soon find flogging a dead horse is not productive.

    But Neil will keep flogging, CU. 🙂

    The opposition is going nowhere as the horse is..

    Actually you’re wrong on that, Neil. they did include carbon pricing in their election campaigns as well as NBN and were elected handsomely. Any other bullshit to hand?

  480. Jane,
    I have lost count of the number of times I and others have provided links for Neil, which show that the Prime Minister DID NOT LIE ABOUT THE ‘CARBON TAX’….gosh I’m shouting like Neil did last night !

    There was the PM’s speech, still on her website, dated prior to the last election, and an article by two very senior journalists from the Murdoch stable, who reported on the the PM’s carbon price promise, also before the election.
    How quickly they moved on from that.

    “three planks” indeed.

  481. Pip, Neil will keep refusing to believe that the PM didn’t lie, no matter the proof, because it doesn’t jibe with his Liars Party brainwashing.

    And it’s not just Neil. The Liars Party world view is continually reinforced by the likes of Anal Jones and such loonies, who are well aware that the PM didn’t lie. Hell, some of the buggers reported what the PM said in her election eve speech and are still on the J*U*L*I*A*R bandwagon.

    These are the people who keep parroting the nonsense that Gillard has done enormous damage to the country and inevitably they’re the ones who are also obsessed with surpluses and debt.

    The same ones who claim that the present government is the worst in the history of the universe, whose proof for this statement is Liealot said so. And try telling them what outsiders think of the government and its achievements! (Not the bit about being gold medal whingers) Fingers in ears and lalalalalalala.

    And then out with the electron microscope to pick over every utterance to find any negatives to trumpet triumphantly to the huddled, homeless and starving masses.

    You do realise that we’re all rooned and living under bridges, don’t you? That’s why Barnyard threw in a bridge building program when he denounced the passing of the CEF bills this arvo as being undemocratic.

  482. Quite true Roswell. I did fix it by switching the computer off and starting
    again but nothing better has turned up 😀

  483. By the way, you all know that Mr. Howard is chairing the show that Mr. Abbott is going to on Thursday.

    Mr. Abbott may have had his ticket paid for.

  484. Best tweet of the evening

    TheOldAussieBag The Old Aussie Bag
    by slabb0

    Excuse me xenophobes.
    May I borrow a ‘Fuck Off We’re Full’ sign?
    I need to put one at the airport before Abbott tries to get back in
    #auspol

  485. Have any noticed that we are not only seeing Mr. Abbott getting scrutinised.

    We are getting information about the clean energy act and other things.

    Actually talking facts.

    There is little opinion

    Could not be the media enquiry. No, couldn’t be.

    .

  486. Then again, maybe this is the best tweet 😀

    Thefinnigans TheFinnigans天地有道人无道
    by slabb0

    Howard, Nelson, Turnbull, Rudd all want #CT, all men, failed & lost their job.

    Gillard succeeded & keep job. what a woman
    #auspol
    l

  487. Cu, the change of tone in the MSM is truly shocking to behold.

    Who would have believed it could happen…still groupthink but change
    of agenda ?

  488. Pip, I’m having problems too. Very slow and often stuck, having to escape and re-start. But if I turn off entirely at the mains and restart it’s fine again. I thought it was my modem. I’m so IT illiterate I’m even considering just buying new equipment. But I guess that may not be the solution.

    I do have an IT man I call, and he does fix things but he doesn’t teach me what’s going on. It’s like having a doctor who won’t trust you with information about your own body. I have to find a new ‘fixer’ but that’s easier said than done.

    I hate classes – so please don’t suggest a course!

    MORE IMPORTANTLY – I keep referring people to that Oz article you linked into your Lie about a lie post, now all at once having lost so much data with computer freezes, I’ve lost it along with that beautiful picture the Australian (!) published along with her making that pre-election statement about her carbon pricing policy. Can you give us that link again, please, Pip.

    What’s been achieved today is so close to that policy. Greg Combet is right to claim the Clean Energy plan as another piece of great Labor legislation. Wasn’t he great on 7.30, but why didn’t he mention the UK and David Cameron’s congratulations to the PM! Now that was a coup!

  489. Roswell that’s just two of us wishing for the speed of light thingy; there must be hundreds of thousand with the same wish.

    Or, could it be that the computer was a bit tired and needed a boot ??

  490. Pip and Patricia, I also had my computer freeze when entering a comment. Logged me out.Also had to turn computer off to get back in. I also know I should put the new hard drive I have in. Too lazy. It was probably a coincidence.

    Has anyone heard any outcry against the bill, except for the whinging and bad losing Opposition.

    The truth is the public could not care less.

    No one against it is the gallery. There was room, as the galleries where not full.

    Not one bus load. No locals turned up.

  491. Patricia there is no course that helps.

    I have and do a lot of the work on my computers.

    The annoying things is that every time it breaks down and I learn or work out how to fix it.

    The problem is that it is never the same problem, it is something else the next time.

    Frustrating..

  492. Technology-can’t live with it and can’t live without it.I’d be pleased to live without Liealot, though and he may have granted my wish. Interesting that he shot through before he had to answer any questions.

  493. Jane,
    you could be right; the meeja have changed direction in the last few
    days, finally.
    It looks like the readers of their scribbles are being prepared for the changes afoot.

  494. Yes they’re softening everyone up for the 180-Gillard=good, Liealot=bad, just like they’ve said all along.

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