261 comments on “So, who won?

  1. It is understood that all it would have taken for Qantas to cancel the grounding was for Ms Gillard to declare all future industrial action illegal.

    Anyone who doesn’t think this is simply a political game played against the current Government is kidding themselves.

    After weeks of negotiations, and days after a shareholders meeting where none of this was discussed, it all comes down to the PM acting in one afternoon

    And they expect the masses to fall for this.

    Although, ltdnews obviously has.

  2. In Parliament, Gillard will be on rare home ground for Labor – industrial relations – while Abbott occupies an uncomfortable a position. The Coalition remains politically squeamish on industrial relations post Work Choices and is publicly divided about backing compulsory arbitration.

    If he were prime minister, what would Abbott be doing right now? Apparently the same as Gillard.

    Equally, if the Fair Work legislation provides a solution to this complex dispute, it will enhance its still industrial uncertain and reputation and – as a result – that of its architect, the Prime Minister.

    http://www.afr.com/p/national/qantas_puts_ir_ball_in_gillard_court_NJSlg0PSj9GXVeIFdrmOxN

  3. in his dreams and by his goofy looks he lives in a perpetual dreamworld..

    “yes your majesty l welcome you to chogm” wakeup tony that was so last week.

  4. You will all be pleased to know that some people find CW amusing. It is good to know – that even those people who don’t like us and bag us at every opportunity – still find the time to read our every word.

    We must be doing something right.

  5. Big Business runs this country. Especially the mining industry and Woolies and Coles. The government is simply the elected representatives of the voters (surfs) who are constantly fed a stream of bias crap from all avenues.

  6. Heck, it’s looks as if they’re all ganging up on poor Tony…this one is from Saturday, but still relevant I think.

    HOWARD government minister Peter Reith has attacked Tony Abbott for suggesting that Julia Gillard intervene in the worsening Qantas dispute, declaring it would set back industrial relations policy 30 years.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/peter-reith-raps-tony-abbott-over-qantas-row-as-julia-gillard-urged-not-to-intervene-in-dispute/story-e6frg95x-1226180030337

  7. Alan Joyce and the Qantas Board won.

    Union hacks lost. So did the uninformed critics.

    But Tony Sheldon, TWU Secretary, remains a candidate for ALP Presidency. A true reflection on the talent pool and outstanding structure of the ALP.

  8. Apparently the tactics came form the Rio Tinto union buster handbook, but they forgot a couple of things.

    Rio Tinito is a mining company without hundreds of thousands of small customers.

    Rio Tinto closing a mine does not harm the total economy.

    Rio Tinto closing a mine does not leave citizens stranded all around the world.

    The handbook they are using is totally and utterly flawed. Time to revisit the Rio Tinto company thuggery book when it is used in other areas of the economy.

  9. Migs, Thanks for your generous offer. Sue, No use having my own lock installed, because I’m a teetotaler, but hey you can do a Qantas act and allocate me a couple million$$$$$$$$$$.

  10. My goodness. The backwater blog sites are going feral about Café Whispers. They might as well change their thread titles to something like:

    Café Whispers is run by evil women.
    Why it is not ToM’s fault.
    What happened to Miglo?

    Afterall, they are the three things they’ve talked about all morning.

    For my amusement I just had to have a look. Bit of a bikey club feel about the place.

  11. Migs, it must be something to do with all the group bondage sessions you and your Café ladies indulge in…it’s made you go weak in..umm, weak in the head??

  12. who do you think is running this country

    The Gillard Government

    who do you think is ruining this country

    Corporate hacks who put ideology before people 😉

  13. From the ABC.. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-31/gillard-on-qantas-grounding/3609954

    Mr Abbott says Ms Gillard could have prevented the grounding had she taken a call from Qantas CEO Mr Joyce.

    “We’ve had 48 hours of chaos because the Prime Minister wasn’t big enough to return Alan Joyce’s calls,” Mr Abbott said.

    Ms Gillard conceded Mr Joyce did contact her office before he grounded the aircraft, but said he had not asked to speak to her.

    “He did not make a request to speak to me about these matters. He understood that I was at CHOGM but in any event he had made it crystal clear to the Minister for Transport that he would be grounding the planes at 5pm – no ifs, no buts,” she said.

    But on the other hand we have Andrew Bolt 🙄

    Gillard refused to answer the call that could have kept Qantas flying.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/andrewbolt/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/gillard_refused_to_answer_the_call_that_could_have_kept_qantas_flying/

  14. It’s noticeable that all sides are being declared the winner. However, those backing management may be doing so prematurely if it is proven that bookings were taken after the decision to shut down had been made. Personally, I find it difficult to back a winner who has won by unethical means.

    What is of no doubt is that the Qantas brand has been tarnished. I don’t blame the staff for that.

  15. What is of no doubt is that the Qantas brand has been tarnished.

    And either joyce is either the greatest buffoon to have ever risen to the heights he has.

    Or mission accomplished

  16. Qantas had the option of being bled to death. It could look forward to a crisis at Christmas, where the disruption would have been immense. Followed by the temperature being returned to simmer until Easter.

    Or it could act to create a crisis at a time of its choosing, and force a result.

    In my opinion, it has chosen correctly.

    The Qantas Board now knows that it can operate in a more stable industrial environment, even under the legislation of this government. It is therefore more likely to retain a greater proportion of Australian based operations.

    The unions involved in this dispute don’t even represent the majority of Qantas employees. Mainstream unions – AMWU, AWU, ASU, ETU etc, have not shown support for the 3 unions involved in this dispute.

  17. min
    why bother with all that effort.
    now if shanahan is bright enough he could read lunalava’s timeline for free, his understanding of the issue may improve as well

  18. Or it could act to create a crisis at a time of its choosing, and force a result.

    Or it could negotiate with the Unions, which it now is being forced to do.

  19. ALAEA and pilots are seen as elitist. The traditional unions have no time for them. ALAEA particularly are seen as screwing the opportunities and training for tradesmen, and bottle necking progression for good skilled workers.

    Various unions see the TWU in the airline industry as avaricious, predatory in membership recruitment.

    There is no love for this campaign among the majority of unions or employees.

  20. Miglo, you are going with the flow.

    It appears that stupid women have taken over the world. Everywhere one looks, you see women in charge.

    We women of the world do realise that it is hard to have a background role. We know how the men feel, after all we have been there.

    I am waiting for the pope to be a woman. With it is alleged that this has already happened.

    As for the interlopers, I would not give them another thought. If a gaggle of women can threaten them, they are not a worthy opponent.

    Tony, is having trouble turning the weekend into a political event. Mr. Joyce let him down by saying the Telegraph story he was using to slam the PM was all lies. Poor Tony, yesterday’s man.

    Mr. Joyce, himself had to admit that he had options but to him they were not viable. Other words he did not like the options.

    Yes, Miglo you are very clever going with the strength.

    We women admire you.

  21. Jetstar only exists because it is able to compete with Virgin for budget travel. It is an airline that was built out of Impulse Airlines, and was expanded by Qantas.

    Load it up with Qantas bells and whistles, it will shut the doors. It won’t have a purpose.

    Jetstar pilots can also choose to remain pilots with Jetstar, on different conditions, or find a job somewhere else. Because they won’t be pilots with Jetstar with Qantas conditions.

  22. How come Virgin have few problems dealing with the unions.

    Maybe they genuinely sit down and talk with them.

  23. The truth is being revealed..Albanese has stated that he made at least 3 attempts to contact Joyce (after Joyce phoned him and he Albanese wasn’t available), but Joyce did not return his calls. At no stage “did Mr Joyce or Qantas or anyone” during these conversations raise the prospect of a lock-out until after Joyce made the announcement.

    At no stage did Joyce indicate to Albanese that a lock-out was intended prior to Joyce’s announcement.

  24. One thing I must say about regular Café commenters is that their views – which often come under attack – remain consistent.

    Over the last couple of days I’ve seen blog sites flip flop all over the place. Joyce is right. Joyce is wrong. Qantas are evil. Qantas are great. The workers should be supported. The workers ruined the company.

    Oh dear. Such confusion.

  25. There is no love for this campaign among the majority of unions or employees.

    lol, voice piece of the workers is our yomm.

    This, from the guy yesterday who complained about ME making ‘assumptions’

  26. A dissembling Irishman as CEO
    A board member re-living his “victories” over USA/Yank pilots.
    Corporate investors rewarding corporate greed.
    A media with hidden agendas.
    A wonderful recipe for industrial harmony and the demise of a ‘national’ airline.

  27. We are lucky that the PM, rejected Mr. Abbott’s advice, which would mean the government now would be embroiled in the dispute.

    The PM has made the right choice in not taking sides and leave it up to FWA.

    This is where IR disputes should be arbitrated.

    Both parties have 21 days to come to their senses. If not, I imagine that the FWA will make the decisions for them.

    It is not a government role to settle disputes. It is the governments role to ensure the necessary mechanism are in place to allow matters to be settled.

    TomM, unions might be as bad as you believe, but the boss is often wrong as well.

  28. Migs, and here were we thinking that you were just keeping us on at the Café so that you got out of having to do the dishes 😉

  29. Migs but you as we all know here you are a person of character.

    I am finding it somewhat astounding that the Café can be accused of homophobia and racism (in spite of the numerous topics written on both subjects by Café authors), but sexist accusations about women taking over the Café are fine apparently.

  30. …………..it’s made you go weak in..umm, weak in the head??

    Maybe not Migs, Min. But there seem to be others who are made of a lot less sterner stuff!

    I guess we shouldn’t complain too much, they’re learning that we ladies of a certain age and bladder control are a force to be reckoned with! lol

    Tom R @11.29am. Hear! Hear!

    Min @11.34am and we all know how well we can rely on Dolt for the truth. Maybe, we should just call what Dolt dishes out Claytons’ Truth.

    ….if shanahan is bright enough….

    And they’re the operative words, Sue-“bright enough”. I rest my case.

    Yes, Migs @1.24pm, you are our first victim!! Even now we wimmins are concocting more of our powerful spells and incantations to take over this blog and then the world!!!! The mens will be our slaves and do our biddings, or else THEY’LL ALL BE ROONED!!!! Bwwwaaahahahahahaha!

    We are lucky that the PM, rejected Mr. Abbott’s advice, which would mean the government now would be embroiled in the dispute.

    And he’s spewing, CU! lol

  31. A very powerful press conference by PM Gillard, Albanese and Evans.

    The most interesting bits came from Albanese. Apparently there were private discussions between, Albanese, Joyce and Sheldon and negotiations were progressing to a settlement. Now the discussions would have remained private except as Albanese said that Joyce went to the Tele and gave a story.

    Note it wasn’t the Minister it wasn’t the Union it was that little gloating twerp Joyce of Qantas that went to the papers.

    Albanese has corrected the story, the meeting in his office was between equals in an attempt to bring the parties to negotiate. It was heading that way until 1.58pm Saturday when after 3 attempts by the MInister to return a call from Joyce, that Joyce finally took Albanese’s call. Joyce than told the government (albanese) he was grounding the fleet at 5pm.

    As usual lots of lies in the press. The PM pointed out that stories were incorrect . The PM pointed out that Joyce would be correcting the lies.

  32. The ABC midday press conference with our Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese and Chris Evans has set the record strait about who said what and when. It is clear from the timing of these events that Qantas and the Qantas CEO are responsible for the massive disruption.
    The Telegraph has lied and should print a retraction and an apology to the Prime Minister. Have not seen anything so deceptive from the Telegraph since the front page nude photos of Pauline Hanson some anonymous female.

  33. Sue, re “The PM pointed out that Joyce would be correcting the lies”.

    Which of course means that the Bolt blog will immediately be pulled given that it’s based on a lie. Or am I dreaming…

  34. Tom R – ” This, from the guy yesterday who complained about ME making ‘assumptions’

    Since you’re so very well informed perhaps you’d provide information about how the union coverage and classifications operate in aviation.

    Perhaps you could plug into your own network and provide an informed view.

    **And yes, isn’t it hilarious that ME states that Qantas will send HQ to Texas.

  35. The word from my contact is that nobody’s won. The shit’s going to really hit the fan in 21 days.

    Here come the Asian pilots. Goodbye Aussie pilots.

  36. Miglo, and so will Australia, some believe for the same reason.

    Maybe Qantas should follow the lead of others and allow women to take over.

    First question and the fun has begun.

  37. Adele Horin at the Age considers the vital test for success to be

    …..a leadership test for the Prime Minister and the new industrial laws she designed. If her intervention results in Qantas rapidly returning to the skies and the industrial dispute being brought to a relatively quick end, both she and the laws will have passed it. If that doesn’t happen it will add dangerously to the sense of a government not in control.”

    Since the Qantas fleet is in the skies again and its staff returning to work, it’s obvious that the Prime Minister won.

    I don’t think anyone with any sense would would say that Qantas, the airline, has won, nor have its shareholders. It has wasted millions of dollars, trashed its own brand and lost untold future customers. If Alan Joyce can be said to have won it’s only in the sense that he’s had a Phyrric victory with such a huge and destructive cost to his company and revelation of his bad faith and devious dealings in advance to any arbitrator who might later be called in to judge this case.

  38. Perhaps you could back up your allegation before throwing another hissy yomm.

    Isn’t it hilarious that a vociferous supporter of workchoices claims to know how Unions and workers think. Presumptuous I think they call it?

  39. My contact says that Joyce could be in serious trouble over taking bookings after the decision to shut down was made. The lawyers are currently busy.

  40. CU Abbott is showing just how dumb and clueless he is – more voters should watch him make a goose of himself.

    One bottle of Penfolds (Red) on 2.31 pm for no confidence motion

  41. Perhaps Tom R would explain the total membership of the 3 unions, in comparison to the combined Qantas membership of ASU, AMWU, AWU, ETU the cabin crew unions.

    He might also inform about how the ALAEA classification structure works.

    Tom R is an expert, that’s why he is able to comment with such authority.
    —————-
    But with comments like the one ME made yesterday, it’s no wonder he prefers not to post in places where the challenge is a little more pointed.

  42. Mr. Joyce has lost. He has lost because for the last few months, his aim is to get the workers to walk out.

    Mr. Joyce gave up to 8pm tonight before locking out the workers.

    It was his plan for the workers to immediately down tools and walk off the job.

    , unlike TomM.

  43. luna, if he does, the man definitely has no political nous. If he does, I believe the PM will remain in the house and give a reply.

  44. “When I pressed Mr Joyce whether or not there has been a change of circumstances, he was not able to answer that. But I pressed him as to why [he was resorting to this measure] – his answer was that it was the only option available to Qantas.”

    Was Mr Joyce parroting words scripted for him by the rest of the Rio Tinto ( Qantas) Union haters board and that is why he could not actually answer the question put to him by Chris Evans.

    Absolutely abominable.

  45. Listening to the Opposition in QT, does any one believe that Mr. Abbott has not been working cap in hand with Mr. Joyce.

    Mr Abbott is trying to create the perception that Mr. Joyce told Mr.Albanese directly that there would be a grounding of the panes.

    The sad part is that Mr. Abbott has a smirk on his faces, that leads one to think, that Mr. Abbott thinks he is great.

    He does not recognised that he is being whipped.

  46. “that it was the only option available to Qantas.”

    That has been changed to viable option.. That means, I believe there were no options available that Mr. Joyce liked.

  47. The PM finished QT to avoid the Opposition leader any further humiliation.

    PS. Her answer was that if she took action, it was liable to judicial review.

    The reality is that he PM choose to use parts of the act, she created. She refused to use parts that belong to Mr. Reith.

    Maybe this is why Mr. Reith told Mr. Abbott to shut up. He did not want that part of the act tested, knowing what the result would be.

    It is lovely to see Mr. Abbott being crucified on IR, something that h takes all action to avoid.

  48. There is no love for this campaign among the majority of unions or employees.

    You made a specific claim. To support your claim, you asked me to provide details??

    Ignorance and stupidity personified

  49. That means, I believe there were no options available that Mr. Joyce liked.

    Exactly. His idea of negotiation’ in the same as yabots. My way, or the highway.

    And then a dummy spit when it isn’t his way.

  50. Best QT in a while. Gillard and the whole team on firm crowd.Nothing like black balaclavas and dogs on the workers to remind the public of the Liberal and there affetion for workers rights. And it was drummed home that it was Qantas that was the one taking INDUSTRIAL ACTION.

    Miglo right from the beginning I have questioned the duties of the board of qantas. The lawyers should be looking to sue the pants of all the directors, or if not sue them then sack them for breaching fiduciary duties to the shareholders. Selling tickets when knowing you could not supply the service. SACKABLE

  51. …….it was that little gloating twerp Joyce of Qantas that went to the papers.

    Careful, Sue. Any more of that inflammatory heightist language could subject you to a lecture from our roving Smear & Slur Officer!

    It is great to see the government finally getting the opportunity to give the purveyors of lies one in the eye. Like the PM, Albo doesn’t take sh!t from anyone.

    The PM pointed out that Joyce would be correcting the lies.

    I’m glad I’m not the one she’s aiming at. She must be really savage, but at last is allowed to get the message out without the usual “Tony Abbott says….” white noise! If i were Joyce I’d be looking for a convenient rock to crawl under-a bollocking by our PM wouldn’t be fun, I think.

    lunalava, @2.04pm, at least it’s becoming very clear where the blame for this debacle lies. The whole shabby conspiracy is coming apart at the seams. The entire thing has been a bit like a Dali painting or a Godwin Grech telegram.

    patricia, I like the cut of your jib. A pithy riposte to the doubters and naysayers. And the PM on the warpath and shredding Sir Liealot. Sigh!

    A vote if no confidence. In the opposition surely, lunalava. lol!

    Go Swannie! Go Crean! Sic ’em, boys!

  52. If the PM had done what Mr. Abbott advised, the planes would still be on the ground and the government and Qantas in the High Court for god knows how long.

    It is more evidence that Mr. Abbott is only happy when things go wrong in this country. he sees that as his way of becoming PM. No matter the damage caused to the economy for the fabric of society.

    The results have shown, there was no need for any other action being taken,. there was a speedy solution to the problem of the industrial action taken.

    Whether getting an end to dispute is another matter. There has been a new framework, with a time frame to assist in this matter.

    We will find out in 21 days what happens. It will be left to FWA to make an decision if no agreement is made.

    Both will lose from this process, so maybe wise heads will rule.

  53. Jane, I would have like to been a fly on the wall when she made those phone calls this morning.

    Also I was surprised att number of meetings, where they took place, that Mr. Albanese had with the parties.

    Sometimes he spoke to them together, once in his office in Marrickville.

  54. No Tom R, you simply deny the reality of informed opinion. Go get some information for yourself, and post something that has a semblance of authenticity.

    So much whinging, with so little capability behind it.

  55. And to think that Qantas and its board took the action while the PM was at CHOGM. Noting of course that the monarchists on the board, the general at least, insisted they wait until the Queen and HRH had safely departed. No doubt Abbott was informed as part of the aim was to maximise the humiliation and then came Monday Question Time.

  56. Very quiet finish to QT.

    No matter of public importance. No censure motions. No moving of standing orders.

    just back to normal business.

    I am disappointed, I like this part of the day.

  57. No Tom R, you simply deny the reality of informed opinion.

    Oh, so declaring on behalf of workers and unions is ‘informed opinion’ in the world of the vociferous supporter of workchoices.

    The rest of us just call that delusional

  58. CU

    yes albo said he had time for both Joyce and sheldon which is why he was pleased that the negotiations were going so well. in fact as a measure of good faiith, sheldon and the twu, stopped all further actions. BUT jOYCE WAS THE TWO FACED ONE HERE,going behind their backs oganising the biggest industrial action of all , against its own company, its customers, its workers, its government and the national interest.

    Joyce is finished he has proved he cannot be trusted, it may just take a while for Joyce to realise how low he has fallen

  59. Cu, don’t worry too much if you’ve missed out on the usual Abbott QT dummy spit. Some other blog sites are doing their own impersonation and are as equally entertaining.

  60. By the way ladies, we have been made notorious on another site.

    I believe we should take it as a compliment that we can get under the skin of some so easily.

  61. Sue, I am afraid it is going to take longer for the Oppositin Leader to come to the same conclusion.

    What has occurred over the last few days is victory for people.

  62. You’re obviously entirely unfamiliar with the inter-union wrangling in the airline industry. A dozen unions compete for membership with overlapping coverage.

    But the ALAEA bottle up the quality, skilled trades jobs, to the detriment of traditional unions. TWU is always poaching members from various unions.

    The unions involved in this dispute aren’t representing anything like the majority of Qantas employees.

    You can’t help being uninformed I suppose, but you could avoid so clearly demonstrating that to people who are .

  63. Never one to go the whole mile with the Cosgrove thing. A no doubt able & popular Regular Army officer shot to prominence as Howard relied on the Slouch Hat Mythology to extricate his reputation from the East Timor disaster. He seemed to be liked & was kept by Howard in the public eye. No aspersions from me about his fitness for the top ADF job, the Army’s turn & he probably deserved it. Lost a lot of faith when he stood by watching Mick Keelty get hung out by Howard. And now he ‘s on the Qantas board.
    A bit off topic.

  64. I may well be uninformed yomm. However, I didn’t make a statement purporting to know what workers and Unions were thinking. You did.

    To support your allegation, all you have been able to do is call me uninformed

    Ignorance and Stupidity, gelled into one tight little bundle.

    Meanwhile, I note you are getting your panties in a twist over someone posting a twitter comment.

    How sweet.

  65. A dozen unions compete for membership with overlapping coverage.

    And I would hazard a guess that all of them have similar aims in mind. That is, to protect their members rights.

    Saying there are numerous unions doesn’t mean they are all against each others actions.

    I would even guess that most are quite supportive of the action, as it furthers their own cause down the line.

  66. BSA Bob

    not off topic when you think he is on Qantas board. he was part of the decision, he is someone the public knows and should be able to question on his part of the decision making. for eg would he be truthful as to when this action was discussed, as to why tickets were sold and customers stranded, as to why the government was not told until after the Queen had left and as to why the decision to ground the fleet was final.

  67. If I could be bothered Tom R I could probably find a few articles on the subject, but I can’t be bothered.

    I’m informed on this subject and you make stuff up.
    ———–
    Did you see my link about the occasion that Qantas sacked its TWU workforce over a weekend, and then had the Industrial Commission enforce an individual (yes personal – they each had to sign a letter) no strike commitment on all the employees?

    That was back in 1993, when Qantas was owned by the government, and an ALP government appointed Board members.

    This activity isn’t isolated to the current management, and if you were familiar with the industry, you’d know that.

    But that’s fine, continue to prove your limited knowledge.

  68. TomM, so what.

    TomM, am sure it has been pointed out by many, including the unions, that only a small number of workers and unions are involved in the disputes that are occurring.

    It has been said by many, including the unions that it is not fair to punish those not involved.

    TomM, it might surprise you that it is normal for workers to transfer from one union to another. It isnormal for unions to merge, or maybe split up for that matter.

    This movement occurs for many reasons. Job change or disappear. Industries change etc. It is not an sackable offence

    Now TomM, why do you not to point out the same information when attacking Mr. Thompson.

    In the union he came from there has been great change and movement of members since the man was a Union Organiser back in the 1980″s.

    Many changes in the health and related industries and the way government does business has led to this upheaval.

    TomM, as you say, sometimes the process is not nice.

    What is going on at Qantas at his time has nothing to do with struggle between unions.

    I suggest you move into the 21st century.

    TomM, you do not make the same

  69. If I could be bothered Tom R I could probably find a few articles on the subject, but I can’t be bothered.

    I’m informed on this subject and you make stuff up.

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

  70. BSA, I noticed that too. I was wondering how the man was feeling.

    Cannot be doing much for his reputation.

  71. Perhaps Tom R would point out where he has posted anything on this subject that isn’t ignorant?

  72. Has anybody else noticed that some blog sites have become very competitive within themselves? It all comes down to who can swear the most or scream the loudest.

  73. TomM, disagreeing with you does not mean we are ignorant.

    It probably means we are living in today’s world and that we are not harbouring hatreds from the past that colour our judgement.

    What I am saying, you are saying and attempting to create a diversion or argument with has nothing to do with the topic.

    I probably agree with your description of the AWU, but it has nil to do with the Qantas dispute.

  74. It all comes down to who can swear the most or scream the loudest.

    If it was who could laugh the most ……

    Any blog frequented by yomm would have to be a contender 😉

  75. do you know that the PM told the Opposition today that screaming achieves nothing.

    AAAAUUUGGGHHH!!!!

    I’ve been doing it all wrong 😦

  76. Completely off topic..kids trick and treating, well they’ve come to the wrong place if they want lollies. Why this American tradition, kids eating lollies..what’s wrong with Guy Fawkes Night when kids used to just blow their fingers off with penny bungers.

  77. Just preparing something to eat and this brain wave came to me.

    Mr. Abbott was desperate for the PM to use another part of the act, that what come from earlier acts, probably created by Mr. Reith.

    Maybe TomM can help me out by telling me how Qantas won. I fail to see how the union lost. I can only accept that the workers have lost, is that I accept they love taking industrial action.

    What we have, is that the negotiations are continuing within a frame work ordered by the court.

  78. CU, I cannot help but think that as Joyce’s ultimate motivation was to move Qantas offshore to Asia that following all this publicity that there will be all hell to pay if he tries it.

  79. Rio Tinto, Leigh Clifford, Freehills law firm….
    Qantas, Leigh Clifford, Freehills law firm….

    No need to connect the dots, it’s even in The Australian

    Qantas strategy straight out of union buster’s playbook by: Matt Chambers From: The Australian October 31, 2011

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-strategy-straight-out-of-union-busters-playbook/story-e6frg95x-1226180907904

    [for those who follow patricia’s directions}

    *** This is from 2002, but the dots lead up to the present.
    The links may be unavailable but the gist of the story is very clear.

    http://www.pprune.org/dunnunda-godzone-pacific/50189-union-bust-3-a.html

    Union Bust 3
    ——————————————————————————-
    The H.R. Nicholls Society

    “Freehills are certainly the firm you go to when you don’t want to compromise,” says one Melbourne lawyer.
    “Freehills don’t mind being known as the headkickers, the lawyers who deliver for the big end of town” says another ex-Freehills solicitor.

    But that reputation took a dent during this year’s docks dispute. When Patrick Stevedores dumped its unionised workforce just before midnight on April 7 by terminating contracts with subsidiary companies employing the workers, its management appeared supremely confident that the strategy would survive any legal challenge…. Freehills was named a real loser in newspaper headlines, and suffered the ignominy of having Mr Corrigan question on national television the legal advice his company had received.

  80. I feel for you Min (although, it is an English tradition, that has been thoroughly Americanised)

    We get more here every year too. It’s kinda sad 😦

  81. Min, I do no have any sweets in the house and find myself often embarrassed when the door bell rings.

    Not this year, the estate body has told us if we are interested to leave the front light on.

    I have no lollies, so the light will not be on.

  82. Freehills 2100

    Unions rally to support staff hurt by groundings

    http://m.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/unions-rally-to-support-staff-hurt-by-groundings-20111030-1mqho.html

    The TWU national secretary, Tony Sheldon, said his members had conducted only about six hours’ worth of industrial action during seven or eight months of negotiations.

    The national president of the Construction Forestry Mining and Energy Union, Tony Maher, said Qantas was following a game plan honed by its law firm, Freehills.
    ”Freehills came to prominence in the Reith years and they spearheaded all the major disputes where employers were testing out Work Choices and its predecessor act. They were in the waterfront dispute, they were in the Rio Tinto dispute,” he said.

    ”They stonewall in negotiations, they have an amiable looking spokesperson, that’s Alan Joyce in this case, and they exaggerate the impact of industrial action.”

  83. Pip, good one. So much for Joyce’s accusation that the union has been disrupting the efficient running of Qantas. A whole entire 6 hours over seven or eight months….

  84. With thanks to the Tony Abbott Will Never Be Prime Minister facebook group for the link..A Senate enquiry next month? A coincidence…

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/17/senate-moves-to-keep-qantas-truly-australian/

    Key elements in the current Qantas restructuring are to be examined in a Senate Inquiry next month into a proposed amendment to the Qantas Sale Act and the shutting down of alleged slave labor foreign flight attendant rostering on Jetstar domestic flights.

  85. The dispute was supposedly about a 2.5% pay increase for long-haul pilots yet the lock-out has apparently cost Qantas $20 million per day. For some reason the numbers don’t quite add up….

  86. Min @4.00pm, rofl.

    CU @3.51pm, Liealot does love a wedgie. A quiet finish to QT, eh? No tears, no tantrums, no morons in the gallery? Sounds like the kiddies in the naughty corner copped a damn good thrashing!

    Normally I wouldn’t advocate thrashing the kiddies, but sometimes they’re impervious to reason and they need to be brought up short and taught some manners. Bwwahahahaha.

    Tom R, don’t feed the animals. Eventually, they get hungry and BUGGER OFF!

    Sue, after a good mauling by the PM, I’d say Mr Joyce would be feeling much chastened.

    Has anybody else noticed that some blog sites have become very competitive within themselves?

    And their lame and halt have to sod off and infest other blogs, you mean, Migs?

    Min, @5.00pm, I agree entirely. This generation of kids is soft and wimpy.; they’d probably cry if a jumping jack chased them!

    Completely off topic, what’s going to win the cup?

  87. Jane, maybe Abbott has miraculously matured overnight. Could this rub off ontoo the right wing cheer squad? Am I dreaming?

    Btw, I’m watching you wimmin. Don’t dare turn my back unless I get knifed. I have it on sound advice that a blog coup is about to be hatched.

  88. Who will win the cup? No idea. I’m sure some backwater blog site full of experts on everything will be postulating over it. Grab your knife, knuckledusters and whip and check ’em out.

  89. No, Mig we are too sensible to want that. We We will leave you in the driving seat.

    Thanks for asking us along for the ride.

  90. Mig, I would like to see more men on the site. I know we have a couple that respect us, but we seem to frighten others away.

    Then if they are so easy frightened away, maybe they are not really men.

  91. URGENT

    Murdoch’s secret ABC attack

    http://www.avaaz.org/en/murdochs_secret_abc_attack/?cl=1360156748&v=10733

    Posted: 31 October 2011

    In hours, Murdoch could secure his stranglehold on the Australian media by acquiring our public international TV news network — and rob a struggling ABC of $223 million in funding. Communications Minister Stephen Conroy is under pressure to give control over the network to Murdoch instead of the ABC — but together we can stop the deal.

  92. CU, we have quite a number of men on this blog, and in fact if you add up the numbers there are more male contributors than female. I think that it’s all about expression of opinion and gender it’s relevant.

  93. Some men feel threatened by women with an opinion, Cu. I’m one of the few who aren’t.

    Most of the males who comment here provide valuable contributions. Think Möbius, Meta, Tom R, Bacchus, Mangrove Jack. And Eddie with his links.

    And Neil. 😯

    Have I missed anybody?

  94. Jockeys are too short, Cu. Small people aren’t allowed to be discussed on this site. The blog police will be here with their batons if we’re not careful.

  95. Migs, ‘small’ is not a good word..nor is vertically challenged. Watch it or I’ll be banning everyone over the height of 5′ 2″ from this blog!!!!

  96. Migs there are indeed many decent men on this site that are willing to debate with women as equals.

    They deserve to be thanked for their support.

    I have found it is rare for men not to discriminate against women.

    I have no interested in worrying about those who are thin skinned and cannot stand the heat.

    Migs they can make the choice not to enter your kitchen, though I have been told on good authority you only use the microwave.

    Mr Truss has admitted on ABC24 this morning that they have been talking with Qantas. Interesting interview. Labor should have helped Qantas. Why did they not use the the leglisation in the act. If they did not use it why is it in the act. The answer to last question is that the leglisation was in the act came from a earlier act. Everything he said in the interview was demolish by the PM in QT.

  97. CU..immediately retract that statement I have been assured that Migs is an excellent cook and makes an amazing spag bol 🙂

    It’s only ‘elsewhere’ that has tried to turn gender into an issue. Best ignored I think.

  98. Sorry Migs, I am sorry I said you do not use the stove.

    Now that would make the kitchen a little hot, that is if you used the oven.

    Sorry Min, I was having a little fun.

    PS If that is the case, they are not having much success.

  99. I’m just letting you know that I won’t be coming back here again.

    As many of you know, I’m gay, of Celtic background and short statured…

    Forgive me if I find it offensive that you all laugh at calling Alan Joyce a “gay leprechuan short arse” but I do.

    I have tried, diplomatically, to explain why I find this characterisation to be homophobic and xenophobic, but instead you have accused me of “insulting” and “attacking” you.

    In return I’ve just been ridiculed.

    So I’ll leave you to it. It’s a shame really as I once thought of Migs as a friend.

    You all deserve each other.

    Don’t bother replying because I won’t be back.

    Goodbye.

  100. They are having great success, Cu. Their hypocricy and sexist attitudes are being brilliantly displayed.

    Sorry, Min (I mean boss/blogmaster), I too was having a bit of fun.

  101. Miglo, if we are racist, homophobic and any other ” ism” one can think of, why has the site not suffered a deluged of complaints by others offended

    I say this particularly, after the exposure to your site has had today.

    One or two seem to be mounting a lonely campaign.

    Drum is good. Watching the Liberal supported trying to talk themselves out of a corner.

    I am looking forward to more of this.

  102. It is a little of the kettle calling the pot black I believe.

    Maybe it is not prudent to throw stones when one lives in a glass house.

  103. Over the last couple of days I’ve listened to the condemnation of CW over at GT and some of the bile that goes with it. I decided to play the same game, but apparently they aren’t in the rules.

    Reb, you have some brilliant commenters at GT and you’re a very gifted writer yourself, but you also have among your group some of the nastiest pieces of work to be seen on the blogosphere. In my opinion their presence belittles you. I know that this opinion is shared by many.

    But if those morons wish to keep attacking me with their vile crap then I’ll fight back.

    In order to show that I am genuine I will not denigrate GT any further and I ask that other contributors here follow this commitment.

    The ball’s now in your/their court. We can walk peacefully away from this.

  104. CU, because of course it’s untrue. Migs has been a constant and passionate supporter of all human rights issues, not just on his own blog but on The Blogocrats and before this on Tim Dunlop’s Blogocracy. And this is just the blogs and apart from his other work.

    I dare anyone to name another blog which has specific Categories titled Gay Issues and Indigenous Australia. Migs of course is our expert on Indigenous issues and has written extensively and with expertise that none of us have. One need only to ‘hover’ over his gravatar to learn his field of study. But this isn’t just a field of study for Migs, it’s his passion.

  105. Jane
    the last horse i had in a sweep dropped dead during the race, there ended my interest.

    As to the senate inquiry of Qantas I think it is scheduled for this week.

  106. Inexplicable Migs. But then we are just a bunch of racist, homophobic, feminist short-arsed people. Your good self being the exception of course 😉 Well..you’re tall anyway…

  107. And they are off and racing

    “Debate on the government’s carbon tax has got off to a spluttering start in the Senate.

    A package of 19 bills is being considered by the upper house for the first time, following its approval by the House of Representatives this month.”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/opposition-bid-to-block-carbon-tax-bills-defeated-20111031-1mrbf.html#ixzz1cLUG3aC3

    And the next we will hear is about the winner is when they cross the finishing line.

  108. You’re right Migs, reb is one hell of a gifted writer and you have to admire the time that he puts in creating the posts that he does. I have always wondered how he keeps going. In fact, I’ve often wondered how you all keep going.

    Now, I’ve been around both sites for some time and have always enjoyed reading, though not often contributing to them.

    The stress that comes with,managing a blog, and the exchange with people that you don’t (really) know and can’t see, must be great.

    There have been a few dummy-spits over the years and being a cyber world thing sort of, I suppose, makes it simpler just write a few words and that’s it. And I suspect, hoping everyone demands you back.

    Now, I don’t really know what a ‘gay leprechaun’ is, but I’m sure as hell it’s friendlier thing than ToM when Fifi’s off heat.

  109. Sue, the last time I picked a winner in the Melbourne Cup I did it twice with
    Think Big.
    Since then every last one of ’em has run up a lane…..

  110. Back on the Qantas thingy. My wife, who is from a Liberal background, and whom I have kept locked up in the bedroom for the last ten years with only Foxnews, on the tele, said, when let out tonight for her monthly feed, ‘Gosh isn’t that Joyce a dick”, Freedom at last!!! It takes time, but it’s worth it. (OOOPPPS have I offended anyone????)

  111. So how long do you give her until she’s got to go back in handyrab? And Foxnews!? Isn’t that cruel and unusual punishment, even for the heinous crime of being from a Liberal background? :mrgreen:

  112. …and just to ensure I’m not speaking behind anyone’s back…
    ——————–
    Interesting.

    Miglo – ”And when did I ridicule them?” (gay men)

    Remarkably, on a couple of occasions that I’ve visited recently you’ve chosen to defend people who did ridicule gay men.

    Also remarkable is the offense taken when I’ve pointed this out. Since your resumption of participation you’ve chosen to take offense at inoffensive comments, and escalate every exchange.

    Just thought I’d point this out, otherwise you’d probably think your point of view was justified.

  113. ToM, IMHO you were trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill and you crafted your words rather cleverly to ensure that the mountain was very high.

    Next you’ll be saying that I should delete comments that offend you.

  114. Bacchus, she’s seen the error of her/his? (gotta be careful these days) ways.
    So now it’s just the 7 news and the thing that follows….
    Mind you I cook a decent meal when appropriate.

  115. I don’t often agree with el gordo but ‘preciousness’ ‘ I think says it all about some of the reactions elsewhere.

  116. And further, ToM, my actions were to defend people you came here to attack. You know damn well that Sue was quoting something from Twitter, yet you went on the offensive and wouldn’t drop what at the time was a non-issue.

  117. Miglo, you’ve chosen to directly criticise me for commenting that an anti gay smear is “pathetic”.

    You could have left it alone, or you could have even agreed that such a reflection of sexuality is distasteful.

    But you chose to come firing back at me (apologies for politely justifying my view).

    So when I substantiate my view you’ve accused me of bullying women. Tell me how this can possibly be justified when I have exactly the same exchanges with males.

    You’ve continually taken offense at about every legitimate comment I’ve made here, and last week, after I advised you that I would not continue to comment on the thread (at your request) you continued to needle me by name.

    You may be critical of my commentary, but you might bother to check your own occasionally.

  118. Handy’ yes indeed. If one decides to write an entire Café-bashing topic..yet again..this is aside from all the previous Café-bashing topics, I somehow think that we at CW have been extremely patient. It to me seems an extraordinary thing to do, write a topic bashing another blog…ah well, people they say are strange.

  119. In regards to el gordo, I must admit that as annoying as she is, I actually like her. And she can be very annoying. Damn annoying.

  120. ToM, you’d be hard pressed to find anybody on this site who doesn’t think that you instigated the problem.

    Give up while I’m in a good mood.

  121. It is a sad day when even Mr. Katter wants Mr. Joyce gone. His only friends seen to be Mr. Abbott and Mr. Truss.

    Mr. Abbott Should be questioned about his relationship with Mr. Joyce.

    He should be asked what role he has played in the last weeks events.

    “……..Federal independent MP Bob Katter says Qantas CEO Alan Joyce should be sacked before he destroys the airline.

    Qantas has been told to get its planes back in the air after Fair Work Australia ordered an immediate end to all industrial action by the airline and by unions angry about pay and conditions..”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-31/katter-calls-for-joyce-to-be-sacked/3609504

  122. Just so that I’m not talking behind anyone’s back…
    —————-
    James, over at CW one of the regular contributors said of Joyce – “he wouldn’t have a wife, at least not a female one”.

    I said this was “pathetic”. Sue defended it, which I also thought was pathetic.

    Miglo came in and said I was “bullying women”

  123. And btw, I notice that TB inferred that you are gay. Any chance you’ll hound him to death like you did with Patricia, here and at TPS?

    Or are you selective on who you torment, eg women only?

  124. ToM..wrong..again. It was pointed out that Joyce wouldn’t have a wife because he is openly gay. And your problem with this is….

    Among other things which I said today was that Migs can cook spag bol and is into bondage. I don’t see him complaining…

  125. I’ve linked the actual words Min.

    No matter how you might try to reinterpret them, the words stand for themselves. it was a smear.

    By the way, I haven’t noticed your correction, you know, you said I’d accused Sue of being “homophobic”. Of course you now know I did nothing of the sort.

  126. Miglo,
    I can’t remember my first Melbourne Cup. But I think Archer was
    racing.

    and you don’t look a day over…oh wait…..

  127. “Just thought I’d point this out, otherwise you’d probably think your point of view was justified.”

    TomM, I am a little bored with this, but it is your point of view that is considered not justified.

    Sorry TomM.

  128. Joke, they had to bring back George Negus tonight on 7pm so they had someone to unterview Mr. Albanese.

    Wonder they did not bring Bolt in.

  129. ToM, actually the entire blog was accused of being homophobic plus a mention of racism thrown in for good measure.

    It was not a gay smear, it was anti-Alan Joyce smear. Ok so put your money where your mouth is ToM. Send me the link and I’ll run it by anti-Discrimination NSW. I worked with anti-Discrimination NSW for a number of years, and will put your complaint foward formally. However, I will need your name of course so as to lodge this. If you are not prepared to do this, then the case is closed.

  130. If Abbott had said of Bob Brown – “he wouldn’t have a wife, at least not a female one”, can you imagine the outrage from the very people who chastise me for calling the comment “pathetic”.

  131. Radio caller just told of his son’s planned trip to the USA. The son has now booked a flight with another airline at a cheaper price, and Qantas have told him that it will take 12 weeks to refund the fare.

    How long does it take Qantas to receive the customer payment.

  132. What Pip, you think appropriate (anonymous) commentary on a blog is based on whether HREOC will find it discriminatory??!!

    Now that is hilarious!

  133. I will drop it now unless you choose to reply, or unless someone else wishes to continue.

    I think my comment to Sue’s was entirely reasonable, it was distasteful, and I think your reaction was unwarranted.

    I also didn’t appreciate your continued needling earlier in the week – after I’d accepted your request to discontinue my commentary.

  134. ToM, actually no commentary on a blog is anonymous as now proven via several cases. A court can pull out your identity at a moment’s notice.

  135. ToM, I’m still waiting on you to maul TB (poor fellow) for inferring you are gay. Your history reveals that you are offended by such inferences. Perhaps he should change his name to Patricia. Os Sally, or Debbie, or Pamela, then you’d be happy to mount an attack.

    Come on. Show some guts. Show some consistency. Abandon your duplicity.

  136. Miglo, how about you explain why pulling someone up for saying he wouldn’t have a wife, at least not a female one” is bullying women?

    How about you explain why you continued with overt needling last week when I’d accepted your request not to continue to participate on the thread?

    How about you show an actual link or a quote of mine that you can actually demonstrate is “bullying”?

  137. ToM. This is my blog. I’ll pull up whoever I please.

    Therefore, stop telling me how to run my site or what I should do on my site.

    Message understood?

  138. ToM should refer back to Min @ 9.08pm

    Send me the link and I’ll run it by anti-Discrimination NSW. I worked with anti-Discrimination NSW for a number of years, and will put your complaint foward formally. However, I will need your name of course so as to lodge this. If you are not prepared to do this, then the case is closed.

  139. So Miglo, just answer a couple of reasonable questions, or don’t bother to continue to reply.

    Why did you continue to directly needle me, after I had agreed to discontinue my comments on the thread, as you requested?

    If Abbott said of Brown ”he doesn’t have a wife, at least not a female one” would you consider this worth calling “pathetic”?

  140. Sue, completely understandable..gnomophobia should be dealt with as a matter of urgency. Burying the little b*gger was no doubt very therapeutic.

  141. It is a sad day when even Mr. Katter wants Mr. Joyce gone. His only friends seen to be Mr. Abbott and Mr. Truss.

    So not only is Mr Joyce a w@nker, he has no taste.

    Does anybody know whether Bolt closed his blog that was based on the lie about the phone call to Julia?

    Can’t do that Migs, it might interfere with his freedom of speech1

  142. Jane I’m not sure which electorates are fighting against the coal seam gas mining, but there are thousand of wells in the pipeline so Katter may well have a chance of beating a number of Nationals if they don’t stand up for their voters.

    BTW, my computer is really slow tonight but I’m still around

  143. Oops, wrong Mr Joyce 😳

    Muddled with Katter’s Australia party…

    Katter calls for Joyce’s head
    Updated October 31, 2011 09:10:52

    Federal independent MP Bob Katter says Qantas CEO Alan Joyce should be sacked before he destroys the airline.

    Qantas has been told to get its planes back in the air after Fair Work Australia ordered an immediate end to all industrial action by the airline and by unions angry about pay and conditions

  144. Bacchus, they seem to be remaining loyal to the LNP, but Bob Katter knows from experience how the power boys work, and I’m inclined to believe himwhen he says there was “absolutely no doubt” that other “ostracised, isolated and bullied” country MPs would follow Mr Knuth, leading to speculation tensions over coal seam gas on farming land would force the split.

    Maybe he has been ostracised, isolated and bullied himself.

  145. Many will continue to sell out remain loyal to the LNP Pip – that’s for the chance of ministerial leather the Lieberals hold out as inducement to them – there are a few who are in the “game” for the right reasons who recognise that what’s good for their political careers, isn’t necessarily so good for their constituents – there’s a couple in the Federal arena that come to mind. Crook & Washer for example…

  146. The MRRT legislation is being introduced this week there’s some action from Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott.

    Coal gas dispute threatens mine tax
    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/coal-gas-dispute-threatens-mine-tax-20111031-1msc4.html


    THE federal government’s mining tax has hit a snag, with two key independents demanding curbs on coal seam gas exploration and hundreds of millions of dollars spent on environmental research programs in return for their support.

    With the government to introduce legislation for the minerals resources rent tax tomorrow, Tony Windsor, with the backing of Rob Oakeshott, put his demands to Treasury officials during negotiations yesterday.

    Mr Windsor, who holds the NSW seat of New England, told the Herald he had had enough of the methods of coal seam gas companies, which were expanding operations dramatically in NSW and Queensland.

    Anddd, the ABC just began their story on how the PM handled the Qantas
    lock-out with Tony Abbott says.

    Give me strength!

  147. Mr Windsor’s key demand is for $200 million to $400 million to be allocated each year from the tax revenue to fund bio-regional assessments, an idea he raised last week.

    ….. In addition, he wants legislation to give the Commonwealth powers to override the states, which control mining leases.

    He has a private members bill granting greater federal powers of approval and the Greens have put forward similar legislation.

    ”I want my bill or something else to give the Commonwealth a greater degree of power,” he said.

    ……Mr Windsor also wants an end to the dispute on a property near Spring Ridge, south of Gunnedah in northern NSW, where farmers are trying to stop Santos doing exploration drilling.

    A similar, previous dispute with another company lasted six months and Mr Windsor said people should not have to go through it again.

    ”I’m not supporting the mineral resources rent tax until something is done about these three issues,” he said

    There’s much fuss about the Minority government but this is what it’s about.
    If the Independents weren’t in this government the farmers would end up with what Paddy shot at, whereas now they have a chance against the goliath mining companies.

  148. Yes Pip, at this stage they sure did. It will be interesting to see how both perform as it gets closer to election time (remembering Mr Washer is retiring). It will depend on how the government and the Independents are faring – I believe polls will turn back towards them over the next 18 months. In that scenario, Mt Washer has nothing to lose & Mr Crook has everything to gain from standing up to the Lieberals.

    Remember it looked (if only for a millisecond) that the WA Nationals were going to stand up to the Lieberals over there. Pity they didn’t make a stand for their constituents.[..

  149. At this stage, yes, Pip. I’m hoping for more success for the Independents, which might show the way forward to the agrarian socialists who make up the National Party. Take away the mindless country vote from the Lieberals and they’ll be just a rump. (*Note – this is not saying that country voters are mindless, just that many vote for the Nationals in coalition with the Lieberals against their own best interests.)

  150. Bacchus, the Independents have gained more for their electorates as part of the Minority government than the Nationals could manage as part of the Coalition and it will be interesting to see, if the government lasts it’s three years, how much more can be achieved.
    There’s the NBN, health and hospital improvements etc. for the constituents to consider.

  151. The media spin on this is completely as most of us at the Cafe would expect and Coalition Senator Simon Birmingham argued in the Senate that the carbon tax would ‘impose significant new costs on Qantas’.

    I suppose they must be feeling the pinch what with their reported multi billion dollar ‘fighting fund’ against the unions….

  152. Former Howard government Minister Peter Reith who is no stranger to Industrial disputes has no qualms about disagreeing with Tony Abbott.

    Ending industrial disputes: arbitration is not the answer
    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/3609582.html

    Mr. Reith is doing his best to get the Coalition to speak up for his life’s dream of Workchoices Mk 11.

  153. Well, it is all spin, spin, spin over at ltdnews this morning. They are running with the line that the Government was warned of the grounding.

    JULIA Gillard’s office and three senior ministers were told by Qantas management they had “options available” to avoid the fleet grounding and that CEO Alan Joyce was ready to talk to the PM.

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/julia-gillards-qantas-move-didnt-follow-the-script/story-e6frfq80-1226182021708#ixzz1cOGHcVkL

    However, when we get to their much quoted ‘script’, we hear this.

    All were told: “We recognise the government has a range of options available to you, however we need to make it clear that we will not, and cannot put planes back in the air until these issues are resolved and we have certainty.”

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/julia-gillards-qantas-move-didnt-follow-the-script/story-e6frfq80-1226182021708#ixzz1cOGHcVkL

    This is their ‘evidence’ that the government was ‘warned’ 😯

    How lame is that, in the ‘warning’ that they might ground flights, they admit that they already HAVE ground flights. Thats not a warning, that’s a revelation after the fact. By then, it is already too late. yet the paper would have us believe that the Government were ‘warned’

    It is already being spun by them as ‘another Gillard bungle’. Even though she has handled an insane situation very well, and using the appropriate measures to do so.

  154. Tom R

    Murdoch press and Joyce MUST win, Gillard must lose. Part of the whole Qantas action was to bring the govt to its knees.
    Yesterday, the PM quite sternly said Mr Joyce would right the record of the conversation, but it appears he hasn’t.
    Also TomR did you note that the Tele was relying on the script used by Qantas spoke person Olivia Wirth, who formerly worked with Joe Hockey. I wonder who else has had access to Olivia’s script?

  155. Tom, trying to read between the lines I think that could be it. That is, phone calls were made but Joyce did not raise the prospect of a lockout. Albanese also said yesterday morning that although he tried to return Joyce’s phone calls, these were not responded to. The look on Albanese’s face when he made the announcement was clearly ‘stunned’.

    Mr Albanese said he called Mr Joyce yesterday to challenge his comments. ”He will confirm that at no stage did Qantas, Mr Joyce or anyone else raise with me the possibility of a lockout of the Qantas workforce until we had that conversation that afternoon,” he said.

    http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-recriminations-fly-20111031-1msbz.html#ixzz1cOOWwMXV

  156. Tom R

    here is a good read about qantas

    “And there is not enough salt in Lake Eyre to accompany the claims that its international operation loses $200 million a year. It is easy to make the accounts tell that story. It all depends on how you apportion the costs. Qantas is an integrated company with a full service division, a low-cost operator and a frequent flyer program, not a collection of unrelated businesses.

    Consider this: Qantas, the premium brand, no longer flies the profitable holiday routes to Bali and other parts of Asia which have now been handed to Jetstar. It has shut down many of its European destinations. Meanwhile, Virgin Blue, which launched international services four years ago, is making a profit on its offshore service”
    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/dogfight-has-a-wider-agenda-to-crush-unions-20111031-1ms74.html#ixzz1cOSGkIuU

    And from this other article how arrogant is the little pr!ck

    ”We will continue to get the backing of any government because Qantas is so important for this country,” he said.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/qantas-takes-off-and-political-flak-flies-20111031-1mscc.html#ixzz1cOSoo3Lp

  157. This one probably provides the best summary of events that I’ve located to date…

    But the events of the past few days merely confirmed what was becoming increasingly apparent during recent months – that this dispute is not about the pay and conditions of Qantas employees. It is the first battleground in a looming war between big business and the federal government over workplace relations in general and the Fair Work Act in particular.

    And especially…

    Even more illuminating were the details of three private meetings in the previous eight days – some in Albanese’s inner west electoral office – between the minister, Joyce and the national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, Tony Sheldon.

    According to the minister, there had been significant progress and a breakthrough seemed imminent. Sheldon had called off planned mid-week industrial action and Joyce was keen to resolve the matter, as any rational CEO would.

    But on Saturday morning the Qantas board opted to escalate the dispute by shutting down the airline and throwing the plans of up to 70,000 travellers – including heads of state attending the Perth Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting – into disarray.

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/dogfight-has-a-wider-agenda-to-crush-unions-20111031-1ms74.html#ixzz1cOZPWdzB

  158. Interesting that this titbit from Min’s link wasn’t repeated at ltdnews

    Even more illuminating were the details of three private meetings in the previous eight days – some in Albanese's inner west electoral office – between the minister, Joyce and the national secretary of the Transport Workers Union, Tony Sheldon.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/dogfight-has-a-wider-agenda-to-crush-unions-20111031-1ms74.html#ixzz1cOj6kjP4

    Their news truly is limited.

  159. I’m not sure if this has been put up, (it was busy last night over at the fun thread) but I think this cuts to the core of what is happening

    Why worry about damaging the airline’s brand if your goal is to run that airline down anyway and replace it with offshore-based airlines?

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/10/31/the-remorseless-logic-and-profound-disdain-of-alan-joyce/

    Meanwhile, stoopid reigns at ltdnews

    This dispute has at its centre a pretty simple question – does Qantas management have the right to manage Qantas? Or should Tony Sheldon from the Transport Workers Union have veto power over everything from how many staff the airline employs, when and where its aircraft hangars are built, who maintains its fleet, to whether it is allowed to expand into Asia?

    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/the-qantas-dispute-is-not-about-alan-joyces-salary/

    Sorry, but last time I looked, Qantas weren’t allowed to do that anyway, and the Unions seemed to be the only ones holding them to that

    http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2011C00835

  160. But Min, the ltdnews has ‘evidence’ that this did happen (although, as I pointed out, their evidence is about as forthcoming as yomms is)

    This is almost as embarrassing for them as the time they claimed some mining project was ‘shelved’, and then had to put out a disclaimer about people not understanding the full range of the dictionary meaning of the term ‘shelved’ (which still didn’t make what they wrote correct, I should add)

  161. Imagine if that were already law Min

    The oo could have basically paid for the BER simply for their reporting of it 😆

  162. The best thing about ll the lies from Ltd News is thatitwon’t get it’s claws on the ABC overseas news and the media inquiry will have even more reason to give them a bollocking!

    They’re providing more and more evidence for their demise.

  163. Tom, this could indeed prove to be an excellent revenue-raiser for the government. Let the lies be told and fine them for it…

  164. Does Qantas have the right to run their company any way they want. yes.

    Do workers have any rights, yes.

    These competing rights are generally addressed by negotiation.

    Qantas cannot demand that those who supply goods and services, do so at the price thy are going price for their planes.

    If they need these items, they have to pay the rate that is agreed on. They have to negotiate.

    Why is the services of human beings, that is the worker, have to accept that Qantas has the right to pay them what Qantas considers fair.

    I suggest the boss has the right to run his business anyway he wants. he does not have the right to tell the workers, to take a cut to their wages and conditions because he wants a greater profit.

    All businesses have to negotiate with others to what they pay for the necessary where-it-all to run the business.

    Qantas has to take into account, all the costs of running the business when they make decisions.

    I suggest that it is necessary for the worker to pay the price of change, by lowering their standards of living, there is something amiss with the decision.

    History has shown and I believe other airlines have learnt that the boss who has the nous to sit down with the worker, gets the best outcome.

    The logic is not hard to understand. The worker has as much to gain from a positive outcome as the employer.

    The worker should not be seen as the problem. They should be seen as the solution. I do not know of any business that produces something or gives a service that can operate without workers.

  165. So there are those who think Qantas won. Their heads buried deep into big business arses and happy to have bosses lord over everything no matter how much the screw workers, customers and the government, and also shift jobs offshore that don’t need to go offshore purely to line their own pockets.

    These are the acolytes of wealthy managers and directors who prostrate themselves to the alter of god of greed as being a good thing, and the same people who are part of the cause for the growing protests against greed around the globe. People will allow greed to go to quite usurious levels, but there is limit and history shows the people will revolt and attack the wealthy when those excessive levels go that one step too far.

    Now the Fair Work Act will be changed to make it impossible for business to close down at short notice, even with prior long term planning, if that causes damage to the economy or severe disruption to peoples’ lives. Like workers, business will have to give plenty of notice of their intentions.

    Balance and fairness, but the last thing big business would have wanted.

    So who has won?

    Who has won when Liberal politicians were approached and asked if they sided with Joyce and big business being able to take the action they did, and if they were against changing IR regulations to stop business taking these type of actions at short notice, every one refused to side with business by voicing their support and every one refused to outright condemn changes to IR that would make it harder for business to conduct the sort of thuggery Joyce did.

    Not Qantas and Joyce.

  166. ONe thiing I did find amazing was Alan Joyce sgutting down an airline totally and blaming one of the unions as radical and militant when all it ahs done is wear Red Ties and made announcements over the PA system.

    Yes so radical and dangerous. Honestly he has been nothing less than a spokesman for the Rio Tinto stacked board who are determined to kill unions even if they kill their own ariline and its reputation to achieve this.

    This board cared absolutely nothing for their passengers all around the world. If they did they would have given 3 days notice of their intention to ground the company to a halt just like the requirement of a union. I hope they are sued to the hilt by stranded passengers.

    They can shut an airline down in 3 hours but take 8 weeks to refund abandoned passengers costs.

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