Abbott offers what

This morning I was greeted by the following rather startling statement courtesy of none other than Tony Abbott..of course.

THE Gillard government faces a choice between doing a deal with Tony Abbott to bring back the Pacific solution or bowing to the demands of its stirring Left faction and scrapping the overseas processing of asylum seekers altogether.

To provide some background to this issue I will refer to the opinion of Frank Brennan, Professor of Law at the Australian Catholic University and Visiting Professorial Fellow at the University of New South Wales.

No government can engage with legal certainty in offshore processing without first having Parliament amend s.198A. If there be no amendment of the Act, government must expect a legal challenge to any proposal for offshore processing wherever the announced destination. The legal challenge would commence in the High Court but probably be referred back to the Federal Court for a trial on the factual issues of protection and adequate processing. There would then be an appeal to the Full Court of the Federal Court followed by an application for special leave to the High Court. All this would take some months.

Tony Abbott then went on to claim that the government was looking for “an excuse” to abandon offshore processing. An excuse? Surely having to amend s.198A of the Migration Act amounts to somewhat more than just an excuse. There is the added issue that even IF the Gillard government accepted Tony Abbott’s offer to support amending the Migration Act that it is likely that in spite of any amendment, that the High Court would refer back to it’s original decision and declare an amendment unlawful. Politically there is very little chance that the government would side with Abbott against the Greens whose support they need for effective government.

Chris Bowen has also quite rightly pointed out that due to the previous High Court decision whereby all asylum seekers have access to the Australian justice system that neither Manus Island nor Nauru provide any deterrent whatsoever to people smugglers.

”It just means that people get processed and the majority get settled in Australia. It doesn’t break the model.”

He also cautioned that the High Court ruling made it unworkable to send unaccompanied minors to Nauru or Manus Island, which is Coalition policy, and suggested that could not be simply fixed with legislation. ”This is a matter I think everybody needs to reflect on,” Mr Bowen said.

270 comments on “Abbott offers what

  1. I believe that what we have here is the end of off shore processing. As Bowen pointed out Nauru is no deterrent to the people smugglers due to the fact that all now have access to Australian courts.

  2. So Liealot thinks that the recent High Court decision hasn’t happened, or that the government can ride roughshod over it???? And the opinion of the AG’s department can be ignored?

    If I were the PM I’d give him the finger and arrange for onshore processing of boat arrivals. Much cheaper and faster: three months for health and identity checks and then released into the community and some sort of mentoring program. Problem solved.

    And if there were a mentoring program working within the processing centres, unaccompanied minors would be less traumatised and could also be released into the care of relatives or appropriate guardians.

    More problems solved and we regain our reputation as a halfway decent country.

    Such a simple solution, I don’t know why no one’s thought of it before!*

    *sarcasm alert.

  3. Not much media commentary to the effect that the Howard Government may have broken the law for years at a time, grandstanding & winning elections from it. I hope they institute onshore processing. As for practical politics, I may have misunderstood but I think Abbott wants this Government to come up with ideas to run by him, which he will of course make a show of rejecting. Effectively keeping the Government out in the rain begging to be let in, with the media dramatising every second of it.

  4. There has been a study of refugees that were returned to Afghanistan from Nauru during the Howard reign. There were quite a number of murders including minors.
    The ABC radio program Sunday 10pm were discussing this and other refugee issues last night..

  5. Jane, exactly..it’s nothing more than grandstanding by Abbott as there is absolutely no guarantee that even IF there were changes made to the Migration Act that the High Court wouldn’t stand by it’s original decision.

    We could go round and round in circles for years with Nauru and Manus Island still being ruled out of the question by the High Court.

    With unaccompanied minors, the High Court ruled that as the Minister is their legal guardian that he cannot deport children if it might be to their detriment. Advice from the Solicitor General reads:

    “The minister cannot give valid consent to the removal or taking unless the minister forms a state of satisfaction, able to be regarded by a court as reasonable, that the removal of the minor would not prejudice the interests of the minor,” Mr Gageler said.

  6. I should have added this is why overseas processing of minors is now unworkable because how do you prove that deporting children to Nauru or Manus Island is not ‘to their detriment’.

  7. BSA, I just heard Gillard and she has now stated that she isn’t interested in Abbott’s Nauru Solution, but will be happy to work with him on a regional solution to a regional problem.

  8. Abbott states that he’s prepared to ‘work constructively’ with the government..well that will be a first.. 🙄

  9. “According to the Migration Act, they are ‘illegal non-citizens’ – which seems a very quaint way of describing asylum seekers. Judged by the media coverage, it would be easy to fall into the trap of thinking that issues related to ‘illegal non-citizens’ are the most important when it comes to immigration policy.”

    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2011/09/05/thoughts-on-immigration-2/

    Maybe Mr. Abbott and the PM should look at changing the first misleading paragraph of Mr. Howard’s leglisation.

  10. Mr. Abbott is panicking. He knows that he does not get the act changed,now, he will be unable to change it for many years to come. The Greens will never support change. I would be surprised if Labor would in opposition would.

  11. CU, yes quaint indeed. Highly inaccurate of course because it is not illegal to seek asylum irrespective of mode of transport.

  12. Sue, do not forget many were sent to Pakistan.

    The so called experts decided that they dubious methods to identify what country they came from. This method was discarded by other countries for decades.

    Do not forget that they also mange to deport Australian citizens.

    Many out of pure desperation took the bribes of a few dollars.

  13. “Abbott states that he’s prepared to ‘work constructively’ with the government..well that will be a first.. ”

    Min it is also very unlikely. I also believe that Mr. Abbott is more desperate than the PM is.

    The PM has the option that the public are beginning to demand, along with the Greens.

    I believe that it will be Mr. Abbott that will find he has been is wedged and the bus has left the depot.

  14. CU @1.34pm..it’s clearly a ‘set up’ by Abbott who wants the opportunity to say, The PM refuses to work cooperatively.

    Abbott could not give a damn about the welfare of these people who are in the vast majority genuine refugees.

  15. Min, it also gives the PM a chance to say that they have looked in depth at the proposition and feels that it would be inhumane and will not stop the boats.

    It would not be hard to make such a case.

    The PM can then go on and say, we are not willing to put these people at any more risk in what is a dubious scheme that is highly unlikely to produce the result of stopping the boat trade.

    The PM could put emphasis on the fact that the numbers are decreasing. The PM could point out over the years the numbers are not constant but are in fluctuate over time.

    The PM could further argue that she is unwilling to waste up to a billion dollars in a futile action, that a does not stop genuine asylum seekers from getting on leaky boats to arrive here..

    The PM could say that the billion dollars is better spent on resettling these people. Giving them the language and other skills to enable them to become worthwhile and productive citizens.

    The border control and security arguments has lost some of it’s sting. We are now a decade out from September eleven. It is long past, when we put fences around official visitors to this country.

    No one appears to be scared any more. It was that perception of fear that underlined much of how we have treated asylum seekers.

    The political climate has changed apparently overnight and there is an option to do the right thing.

    The PM could point out that the Nauru option is not an alternate to Malaysian, Solution.

    It could be said by the PM if Mr. Abbott is willing to make a blanket change, not nominating any country, she might consider his offer.

    The PM could ask Mr. Abbott if he is willing to put in submission why he believes Nauru is today, a viable option.

    The PM could point out that she knows that Mr. Howard and others say it worked in the past. She could add that was the past and many things have changed, that the assumption cannot be made that it will be a success now. She could add that the opposition is likely.

    The PM could say, that after much consideration, they now feel that the issues of the boat trade should not be linked to how we deal with asylum seekers. The plight of asylums seekers should not be dependent on stopping the boat trade.

    The PM could say, we are going to abide by our moral and legal obligations in relation to these people.

    We are also going to work with other countries in the world to address the boat trade. This is an separate issue to how we deal with asylums.

    The PM could remind Mr. Abbott that only 38% of people believe he is handling the asylum issues better.

    The PM would not be lying if she said any of the above.

  16. Detention centre accommodation branded ‘inhumane’

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-05/20110905wickham-point-detention-pics/2870640

    Refugee advocates have described accommodation at a new detention centre being built in Darwin as “inhumane”.

    Pictures of the centre construction show donga-style demountable boxes stacked at Wickham Point.

    Darwin Asylum Seeker Advocacy Network spokesman Michael Bowden says more money should be spent on accommodation.

    and

    Meanwhile, Northern Territory Senator Trish Crossin has joined Labor rebels in calling on the Prime Minister and Immigration Minister to dump any plans to continue processing asylum seekers offshore.

    Senator Crossin says it is time for the Federal Government to return to the policy the Labor Party endorsed at its conference.

    “That ensured people were processed onshore and as quickly as possible,” she said.

    “We have got a very strong platform about people who should be treated humanely, who should be treated with compassion and those people who come here seeking to be assessed as asylum seekers should be treated as we have agreed to under our international conventions and be processed on this shore,” she said

    Senator Crossin says instead of trying to use offshore processing as a deterrent, the government should recognise that refugees will continue to flee violence in their home countries.

    “We need to work consistently and diligently with other countries so that we reduce the pressure for this dangerous, irregular movement of people,” she said.

    If writing to the government one suggestion would be to remind them of the policy the Labor party endorsed at it’s conference.

  17. Min @ 1.49pm, youare not the only one suggesting that Abbott has offered a “set-up”…..Tony Windsor on ABC’s AM program

    http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2011/s3309683.htm

    ALEXANDRA KIRK: The Government hasn’t responded directly, saying it will carefully consider all its options.

    It’s split over what to do. Hardliners want offshore processing. One view is if it suits the Government it should accept the Opposition’s support.

    But others urge caution, warning cabinet to be “very careful” when Tony Abbott offers to help.

    One left wing MP’s dubbed the Abbott offer “disingenuous”. Another senior MP calls it “duplicitous” and “cynical”.

    Independent MP Tony Windsor likes the idea of a bipartisan approach to take the heat out of the immigration debate, but says he doubts that’s Mr Abbott’s agenda.

    TONY WINDSOR: It is highly unlikely that Tony Abbott would offer anything to a Labor Party, but apparently he is. That may be about a political wedge more than genuine compassion and trying to work with the Government of the day and help the Prime Minister out of a particular issue.

    There is a strong possibility that Mr. Windsor’s comment will be diminsished to:-
    “Mr. Windsor likes the idea” in some publications !

  18. Email from GetUp

    http://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/refugees/mondays-cabinet/nows-our-chance?t=dXNlcmlkPTU5MTIyNSxlbWFpbGlkPTM0Mg==

    Another twist. The latest on refugees: The Government are considering working with Tony Abbott to send asylum seekers overseas… again.

    Just last week the High Court stopped the Government sending asylum seekers to Malaysia because, in short, it found that Australian law requires that minimum human rights standards be met in processing and protecting asylum seekers.

    The answer? The Government and Tony Abbott would rewrite laws to remove those human rights requirements. Sounds like John Howard and Phillip Ruddock all over again? That’s because it is.

    But it’s not a done deal yet. The Government could opt instead to manage asylum applications here in Australia, where it’s cheaper, faster and more humane. Replying to calls and emails from GetUp members this week, many Labor MPs and Senators have already broken rank, saying they would never stand for a return to the Howard Government’s cruel offshore processing.

    The pressure is working – can you keep it up by making a quick call today?

    http://www.getup.org.au/nowisourchance

    Calling a politician’s office isn’t something most of us do every day. But last week when GetUp members got in touch with their representatives the response was overwhelmingly positive. In some cases MPs’ staff told GetUp members how important their phone calls were and how they wished they received more of them. Here’s what one member said about a making a call:

    “Her receptionist seemed thrilled to hear from someone against the Howard plan, and it would seem that the Senator is looking for support to go against it. Fantastico!”

    http://www.getup.org.au/nowisourchance

    Even Immigration Minister Bowen himself recently said “the Pacific solution did not break the people smugglers’ business model. It broke the will and spirit of asylum seekers.” Yet the same Labor party that has been so critical of John Howard’s offshore processing model is now considering embracing that same policy with Tony Abbott’s Coalition.

    Click here to make a phone call to your Labor MP or Senator and let them know we mustn’t go back to Howard’s policies.

  19. Pip, @3.24pm Windsor is always down to earth and sensible..has an excellent knowledge of ‘politics’ and knows Abbott having been previously subjected to the Abbott pressure machine. If Windsor says that it’s so, then we had better believe it.

  20. Refugee Council of Australia
    24 June 2011
    A BETTER WAY: A RISK-BASED APPROACH TO IMMIGRATION DETENTION

    Click to access 110624_RW_detention.pdf

    As Australians conclude the celebration of Refugee Week 2011, around 5500 people who have come to
    Australia seeking freedom from persecution remain locked away in secure immigration detention
    facilities. Australia is the only industrialised society to subject asylum seekers to indefinite mandatory
    detention.

  21. What were we saying about Ita Buttrose last night…she’s everywhere lately…she’s on ABC Local in Adelaide now, discussing good manners !! Guest host is Natasha Stott Despoja.

    Well Ita, it’s very rude to argue the toss after a democratic election result …

  22. Pip, I suspect that one can say what one likes in Adelaide and it’s likely to go unnoticed 😦 But on the other hand when it’s Ita…she is clearly a fluff head…

  23. Bacchus, yes indeed all of them. And now we have some clear interpretations from the High Court. This is giving due regard to the fact that under the Separation of Powers doctrine that it is up the elected government to enact Laws but that it is up to the High Court to interpret these Laws.

    When looking at interpretation the Justices will look at statements from the Minister so as to ascertain what ‘he meant’.

  24. What we need is more passion as displayed by this gentleman in 2004:

    We support detention to the extent of health, security and identity. But once those things are established why should it be that the poor people who’ve risked their lives on leaky boats to get here get treated better than some of the ones who fly first class into Sydney airport. The second argument is that somehow to oppose the policy before you is to be soft on people smugglers and this was one that was supported by Premiers Carr and Gallop. It’s one that the government says all the time. This is the government that when the Minasa Bone arrived at Melville Island sent it back and let the people smugglers free. I support tough action against people smugglers. I support the position on people smugglers adopted at the Shadow Ministry last Friday and that was adopted unanimously. What I don’t support is blaming the victims of people smugglers. They’re the ones who we lock up in Woomera in the middle of the desert and persecute.

    There’s the other argument about Christmas Island excision. That somehow there’s a problem that these amendments go to that. Well, I just think there’s an inconsistency in a policy that says the Pacific Island solution is bad but the Indian Island solution is OK. Excision of our borders is no way to protect them and we should have the guts to say it. Australian sovereignty – every inch of it – whether it’s here in Sydney or on Christmas Island, should be protected and people should have the same legal rights as other people do regardless of where they are. It is no way to protect our borders to excise them.

    The third issue that’s often put up is this argument that somehow, and Julia Gillard put it today, somehow if you actually care about the people in Woomera you don’t care about the people sitting in the dirt in Africa. Well I find that pretty offensive. It’s pretty offensive and I tell you what there’s a bit of a correlation between the people that care most about the people in Woomera and the ones who care most about people sitting in the dirt in Africa. That’s my experience.

  25. Min, Tony Windsor is a very good judge of character and as honest as Liealot is dishonest.

    I have just dashed off an email to the PM begging her to give offshore processing the flick in favour of onshore processing as the most humane and cost effective solution.

    I also warned against dealing with Liealot on the grounds that he is an arrogant empty vessel who can never be trusted to keep his word which, of course she already knows.

    Also said the government is v good, doing a great job and will go down in history as a great reforming government.

  26. They’re really not used to being challenged on facts here.

    Bland assertions in support of Julia (!!!!!) are preferred.

  27. As opposed to the cr@p that you constantly spout ToM? Blind rants against anything Labor for 5 years – it’s got very monotonous!

  28. Jane, I agree. I didn’t know a great deal about Tony Windsor but he is certainly a straight shooter and not one to be intimidated.

    I am fairly certain given the legal advice..and I’ve spent the weekend and more looking at what the superior legal brains have been saying (not the MSM) that all forms of offshore processing are now invalid.

  29. ToM, if you actually acquainted yourself with the facts, we might get a little more than the usual tiresome repetition of Anal and Dolt’s bullshit and Liars Party talking points.

  30. The lobbyists are lining up behind the Coalition and blaming low productivity growth on the Labor government.. of course.

    Battlelines drawn over Fair Work future
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-05/calls-for-change-to-fwa/2871912

    Two of the nation’s major business lobby groups are calling for changes to the Federal Government’s Fair Work Act just two years after it came into force.

    The Australian Industry (Ai) Group and the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry (ACCI) have both called for the reintroduction of individual workplace agreements, arguing the move would boost flagging productivity.

    But unions and a leading workplace researcher both say there is no evidence that a deregulated industrial relations system leads to
    greater productivity, and that it may actually do the reverse.

  31. Pip @12.17am, sounds like they are desperate to have SerfChoices Mk 11. Maybe they’re afraid the Liars party won’t win the next election.

    Stands to reason the miners have started to whine about the carbon price, it’s the last ditch effort before the legislation is passed. Ditto the mining tax.

  32. Jane the lobbyists are gathering as is their little Tea Party mob, desperate to force changes to the government policies, and all of it backed by ltd news.

    Intelligent [?], educated adults calling for an election when they know that there has to be a trigger is dishonest, and all the mud slinging by Milne/Bolt/Jones et al won’t change the Constitution !

  33. Gillard is making a mistake here. Gillard should not even be considering negotiating with Tony Abbott. She may think it ‘tactics’ to throw the question of a regional solution to a regional problem back onto Abbott knowing that he is only interested in ‘his narrow solution’..but it’s not a good look to be seen to be pandering to Abbott.

    To the chagrin of the Left, Ms Gillard said she was prepared to talk to Mr Abbott but she indicated she wanted Malaysia included.

    ”If Mr Abbott is sincere about this offer, then he needs to make it very clear that he is talking about working with the government on offshore processing generally, not on his narrow solution,” she said.

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/pm-stares-down-threats-from-the-left-on-asylum-20110905-1jubs.html#ixzz1X7BVP0fR

  34. Pip. Yes I read Antony’s piece about 3 months ago. My call is this government won’t go the distance but whenever the election is held then the DD process commences. There is enough loopyness on the Green side to ensure blocked legislation thus consumating the DD process. I’m sure the Gillard replacement will enact laws to make Nauru legal as an offshore processing centre. It is a geographically unique solution that has worked so well in the past. Any mainstream government who takes the soft approach and jettisons off shore processing is dead meat in the electorate.
    If you have any doubts about this government’s demise read the comment from the Labor elder Phillip Adams.
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/let-rudd-resume-rightful-role/story-e6frgd0x-1226130032312

    Soooo. Restating my previous comment.
    “Not to worry. An election followed by a Double Dissolution will sort out many issues.”
    FYI. I am an immigrant from Malaysia. (Not a queue jumper)

  35. Rasa, the difficulty with that theory is that there is nothing in it for the Greens if they cause a DD trigger..they know that they are far better off attempting to negotiate with Labor rather than try it with Abbott. The Greens have been looking carefully at the way that Abbott has treated the Independents.

  36. Nauru hadn’t worked well. As a link I posted earlier showed Howard used it as a parking station and left refugees who had been found to be genuine there for two or more years before moving them onto Australia.

    It was a delayng tactic to make it look like Nauru was working when in fact it was already starting to fail in the last year of Howard’s reign. When the refugees in Indonesia and Malaysia worked out they had a greater than 90% chance of being accespted for Australia but it meant staying in Nauru for an extended time, they began coming again. Nauru for two or three years was way better than the squalid camps they were in, sometimes for up to a decade.

    The other purpose of Nauru was to deny access to legal represenation, the media, welfare organisations and other NGOs. That will not be the case now even if Labor gets together with the opposition to change the laws.

    The problem is that unaccompanied children will not be able to be sent to Nauru or anywhere else offshore no matter what the government and opposition does. They will have to processed onshore.

    So guess what the result of that ruling will be?

  37. Neil will love this one.

    Given a $335 million surplus O’Farrell is going to announce a $1 billion deficit in his budget with more to come. Only the second NSW deficit in 10 years and the second largest.

    And what did the NSW Treasurer say was the reason for the large deficit, Labor? No, the reason is the current global financial situation means that budget deficits are necessary and are a good thing.

    My how they change their tune when in government.

    Of course we won’t see TomM ranting and raving as his want on this for they are not a Labor government. TomM may claim he’s not a barracke but he is by ommission and bias in who he constantly criticises and doesn’t criticise.

    So far on just about every measure this O’Farrell government is as bad or worse than the Labor government it replaced, but you wouldn’t know it from the media or the LIberal barrackers.

    So can we have another NSW election now as the current government is stuffing up so badly?

  38. Mobius, plus I know that you would know better than any of us here the sheer logistics of picking people up on Ashmore Reef and transporting them all the way to Nauru…especially when you have women and children on board.

  39. Adrian, you again seek to verbal me.

    You may wish to have me get involved in a discussion about NSW politics, but these days I’m on the electoral role in Victoria.

    In state politics here, I’ve already posted criticism of the government over several issues – particularly breaking promises on teachers and police pay and conditions.

    So you should jam your infantile provocation.

    I know verballing is the preferred method of debate on this site, but you’ve previously demonstrated some capability beyond this.

  40. From Vanstone… Apart from the fact that the whole thing is pure speculation….

    There are two obvious choices. One is Stephen Smith. He is capable, calm and despite extensive parliamentary experience he is still seen as a fresh face. He seems mentally strong and is softly spoken. The electorate could warm to all that as a very pleasant change…..

    The other choice is Simon Crean. Age and experience are invaluable when you are in a mess.

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/gillards-a-goner-shortens-still-bloody-stand-up-simon-crean-20110904-1js5s.html#ixzz1X7oQ9LJt

  41. I agree, it’s nothing more than speculation. However if I wanted to speculate myself I would say that Vanstone is way out. The Labor Party won’t revisit Crean and Smith although very competent isn’t ‘it’. If there is a leadership change it won’t be this year and not at the suggestion of the Liberal Party.

  42. Pip, Media Watch was an absolute mine of information last night. It appears that a goodly portion of the “article” was a pack of lies. Also the claim that the PM threatened an enquiry into the media.

    There’s also the claim that the PM lived with Wilson in a house he bought with embezzled funds and that he has been convicted of embezzling union funds.

    In fact, she never lived with him at that house, nor was he ever charged with any crime, let alone have a conviction or gaol term recorded against him.

    The stat dec Dolt referred to and that the shock jock (Smith, I think) had read out on air is known to be false. The shock jock kept calling on the PM to explain herself even after he was publicly told the “article” is possibly actionable and the stat dec is a lie from start to finish.

    The idiot was also calling on the PM to reveal information about the work she did for the AWU including the purpose of the bank account she set up and how the funds were used, when she worked for Slater & Gordon.

    Anybody with a functioning brain cell would know she cannot spruik that sort of stuff to all and sundry and she more than likely wouldn’t have known those details, because it was none of her business.

    And it’s not like this is breaking news; it’s been dredged up several times since 1995 and gone over with a fine tooth comb, and time and time again been found to be a damp squib.

    Pity she hasn’t commenced an action to sue their arses off and then have a media enquiry.

    Another example of media bias, lies, innuendo, gossip and distortion of truth against the Labor Party and the PM, which according to reb and ToM is a figment of our fevered imaginations.

    Perhaps in the interest of balance they could link examples of the same sort of smear campaign against Liealot and the Liars Party,

    Didn’t think so.

  43. Jane..that is absolutely jaw-dropping. I thought that I couldn’t be surprised by any of the lies and distortions that the MSM might care to dish out, but this is something else.

  44. Groan..from Sky, we’re taking you to an interview with Barnaby Joyce, oh no we’re not we’re taking you to an interview with Tony Abbott. Says it all really….

  45. Last night there were a lot of guilt statements thrown about on the Cafe and in amongst it reb was talking about gays.
    So my question to reb is “Abbott offers what” to gays?
    What are his policies, we know how Bernadi thinks, Brandis keeps his ideas out of the public eye and via the courts another Liberal made sure the public would never know.

  46. According to that paragon of virtue Glenn Milne, Abbott once got a scare in the showers at the Catholic Seminary thus reinforcing his views on both Gays and bending down to pick up the soap.
    This story is a bit old but that should not stop News Ltd.

  47. ToM, perhaps the folk at TPS got a bit irritated at your snark and infantile attempts to derail the thread. All you did was come across as a Liars Party shill who would be far more at home on a dingbat blog like Dolt’s.

    We know the government has made quite a few mistakes, the Malaysian Solution and their continuing persecution of the unemployed, spring to mind, however calling BER, the Insulation program and NBN examples of colossal failure is absolute tosh and you know it.

    You have been given ample evidence to the contrary, but your only response to date has been “the opposition says” or if Rupert’s minions say so, it must be right.

    Once again you’ve been given links which show that those programs and other government initiatives have been the subject of flat out lies or distortions by the media, but the same scrutiny has almost never been applied to any policies, no matter how hare brained, by the Liars Party and its eccentric, to put it mildly, leader.

    And that goes for their ludicrous claims that Treasury can’t be trusted because the government is Labor, despite the bleeding obvious that the same Treasury officials costed Costello’s budgets.

    And then there’s the $10bn black hole and the stupendously stupid claim that a dodgy accountancy firm s qualified to cost a policy initiative-well they probably could if it was scribbled on the back of a pub drinks coaster.

    And the constant about face on “policy announcements”. Any scrutiny by the media? Any scrutiny of Liealot’s lies?

    And it’s disingenuous to say the least, for you to say we don’t need to scrutinise what the opposition says and does because they’re not in government. For starters, most of them have got form; they were members of the Howard government. So we know if they’re trustworthy or not.

    Also, if, as you claim, they could be the next government, the policies they are formulating will directly affect everyone in this country. I expect them to be properly costed and subjected to proper (read honest) scrutiny by the media.

    I used to enjoy your comments, I found them witty and humourous. Now you come across as just another Neil, a dingbat shill devoid of humour. I’m sorry you have come to that.

  48. In state politics here, I’ve already posted criticism of the government over several issues – particularly breaking promises on teachers and police pay and conditions.

    Where? The only posts I see of yours are you slagging off Gillard and Labor, and nearly always in response to posts here rightfully criticising Abbott and the opposition.

    You can almost put a sure bet down to when you come into this blog and what you will post about.

  49. No Jane, I’ve clearly retained my sense of humour and irreverence. Why on earth would I otherwise post as “bumchum”? It’s a hilarious label courtesy of TPS!.

    You on the other hand, have verballed me and others on several sites, but you seem to object to getting a little back.

    You’re too sensitive to a few pointed barbs.

    You should return to having a sense of fun and exchange, rather than having a sense of verballing others and defending every poor decision of the government.

  50. Min, I do not think that the PM is in the mood to deal with Mr. Abbott, she is just calling his bluff.

    Mr. Abbott had a whining press conference about an hour ago.

    Consisted mostly of slogans and sentences flung together that did not say anything new.

    I, got the impression, she will not pick up the phone to him.

    The most annoying thing he said that the PM had put her eggs all in one basket, with asylum seekers. He has his eggs spread about?

    Once again, he walked away while questions were still being asked.

    What I do not understand why ABC 24, interrupted their special news broadcast on what is occurring in Parramatta to switch over to the factory he was visiting in Queensland. There was no emergency.

    Mr.Abbott has dropped naming Ms. Gillard, PM, Julia or Gillard. The PM has become she and her.

    The PM was very clear about what Mr. Abbott needs to do. He needs to be clear about whether he is talking about off shore processing in general or if he is talking about Nauru.

    It is clear that the PM will not be picking up the phone to him. I am not even to sure the PM will bother answering it, until he is clear about what he is offering.

    It is stupid to say that the government had only one option. There are always more than one option.

    The government is not in crisis. It is functioning. What is clear, they are in danger of losing the next election.

    Mr. Keating was lower in the polls in 1993. He was still there in 1996.

    The government will only be in crisis if it loses the numbers on the floor of the Lower House. I see no evidence that is happening.

  51. Ah the fall back to, “I’m just having fun and you should all get a sense of humour” meme.

    And he calls others infantile.

  52. Min,quote away.lol

    lunalava @10.45am, all the gay men I know have excellent taste. Rules out that story straight away.

    QandA wasn’t too bad last night, either. Mirabella kept her repellent gob shut unless she was asked to open it and was surprisingly civil even when she opened it! Even Tony Jones was less of a smart arse.

    You could have knocked me down with a feather when Clive Palmer endorsed onshore processing of boat arrivals. Tick for that. However, predictably against carbon pricing and RSPT. Couldn’t say one positive thing about the PM or Labor. Black mark for that.

    Combet and Howes were very good, I thought. Both kept Tony Jones honest and got their points across very clearly, particularly Combet who gave a very comprehensive list of the government’s achievements so far and came out strongly in support of the PM.

    One point he made was her ability to fight for what she believes in. That venomous cow Mirabella retorted that the electorate doesn’t like that that, to which some wag in the audience called out “Why don’t you tell Abbott that?” Applause and loud guffaws from the audience.

    Jessica Irvine was also pretty good. imo. No Ltd News spin and I thought her contributions to the discussion were honest and the result of a lot of thought.

  53. I say the next election will be WorkChoices all over.

    That is not good, it is hard to fight the same campaign the second time.

    Look at what occurred with the GST.

    I believe many voted for Mr. Howard believing the the Democrats would prevent him form bringing in the GST.

    Mr. Howard did bring in the GST with some amendments in spite of the community outcry.

    I warn people early, the only way to stop WorkChoices being re-introduced is not to vote for the Coalition.

    Mr. Abbott has not said he would not go ahead with a scheme similar to work Choices. He said it was dead and

    Look at who is behind the campaign for bringing back individual contacts, Mr. Reith, who has no morals whatever but a driving urged to destroy the unions.

  54. I forgot to add, the GST was given birth the assistance of the Democrats.

    It was the Democrats that died.

    I fail to see the Greens going down the same path.

    There is no way we can know if new independents will be elected in the Senate.

  55. “In fact, she never lived with him at that house, nor was he ever charged with any crime, let alone have a conviction or gaol term recorded against him. ”

    If the above is true, the article’s were truly outrageous. What does TomM have to say.

    It was common knowledge that the PM had her own home.

    No wonder the Australian acted as thy did.

  56. ToM, I haven’t verballed you at all, let alone on multiple sites. I quote directly from what you write, so you verbal yourself, young man!

    I have a feeling that you are living in reduced circumstances and can only afford to visit one VaVoom quin irregularly at bargain basement prices. How the mighty have fallen!

    But it would account for your current bitter and twisted attitude. Is this why you blame Swan? And Gillard? Have they been responsible for legislation denying a tax break for your menage a whatever the French for six is? That’s it isn’t it?

    All the bile directed at Swan is the result of VaVoomlessness? Ask the boss for a raise, my man. Get a second job! Get a new job! Do all of the above. A VaVoomless ToM, is a fractious, irrational, bitter, pooh head.

    If you haven’t burnt all your boats, Min might even pass the hat around and collect enough to shout you an evening with the VaVoom quins. Failing that she might let you have a coffee. But if you’re a pooh head we’ll ALL boot your bum and dob you to one or both, of the Bishops.

  57. Catching up, it’s not just Abbott being rude and arrogant …

    Jane, I listened to part of Q+A,[ I can’t stand to watch it all in one go!]
    Big Clive who, should be able to afford an adenoidectomy, referred to the PM as “what’s her name, Julia”, and someone was heard to say ‘show some respect’ or similar but he basically got away with it.

  58. lunalava, it has been around a long time and never denied, that I know of.

    Perusing of many comments that Mr. Abbott has made over the years, leads one to think there could b some truth in the story.

    It could be said that when you look at his education in an all boy schools and going onto the seminary, it would have been unlikely that somewhere along the line he did not have a distasteful experience. What we I am talking about is child abuse, not being homosexual.

    Personally I believe the problem was that he could not accept the discipline needed to enter the church. Ones has to accept blindly and do as they are told. One has to applied themselves to the task in hand, not run off doing their own thing.

  59. Rasa here is the latest repeat of Antony Green’s blog on a DD

    http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2011/08/when-can-an-election-be-held.html

    If the Coalition formed government without an early election and somehow managed to achieve a double dissolution trigger, the Parliament would have to be dissolved as a double dissolution by 27 March 2013 with an election between 4 May and 1 June 2013.

    The above is the reason the Coalition and their spruikers, such as Ita Buttrose and her wealthy benefactors are squealing/demanding an election now, if they’re quick about it they can have a DD in a little over one year.

    They know there is no trigger for an election, just there own itch, and advertising their demand won’t make it possible.

  60. Trying to read between the lines of the PM’s response to Abbott yesterday I feared that she may be considering some sort of bi-partisan agreement on off-shore processing. Though she’s such a damn good negotiator and legislator I imagine whatever deal she did she’d really tie him to something like the Malaysian/Regional arrangement she’s had in mind with Bowen. (Fingers crossed that there will be a good outcome from that regional meeting in NZ this week!)

    By the way I did support the Malaysian solution because it seemed a possible start to a regional processing centre, without detention, deterred people smuggling and increased our refugee intake.

    Now, however, circumstances have changed! And I have changed my mind! (Was I lying to myself, I wonder?) I still hope that Julia Gillard can somehow rescue the very real work Chris Bowen and she with officials of the Department of Immigration have done on regional cooperation from this unexpected collision with High Court.

    But meanwhile I think that the most practical solution is an onshore process, but without detention, perhaps with electronic device surveillance for security pending identity checks. This seems to me the cheapest and most humane solution. Is it practical? For me that was a major plus about Malaysia. They don’t have detention centres and asylum seekers returned there would have some level of personal freedom.

    I really appreciate the strength and leadership of the Prime Minister in trying to break the Geordian knot of the boat people problem. Sad that the High Court ruling has at last given the Opposition a real “FAIL” to lambaste her with.

  61. CU Vanstone was banished overseas by Howard after a long series of immigration stuff ups (over 400), including deportation of an Australian citizen.
    She was a contender for the Worst Minister Under Howard Award, although it was a strong field to choose from.

  62. CU, Getting into bed with the Rodent on the GST was indeed the death of the Democrats.

    I suppose some will claim that the Greens have done the same with Labor (I’m looking at you, ToM). However, the Greens have clearly stated that they want action on climate change, onshore processing and other reforms, which are unpopular with voters hostile to the Greens.

    So, in this instance, the situation is reversed and the Labor vote is suffering. Hence the success of the meme that Bob Brown is really the PM and Gillard is his bitch. Hilarious really, seeing Bob is gay and has been very happily partnered for decades.

    Of course, that’s not the whole story. She’s blamed as the architect of Rudd’s fall, which again is only part of the story.

    And then there’s the hypocrisy of the confected outrage because she “stabbed Rudd in the back”, while completely ignoring the fact that Liealot is the reason Turnbull is still having blood transfusions.

    If the msm was doing its job properly, Liealot would also be branded as a traitorous back stabber. And been called on his refusal to honour the agreement the Liars Party had made with the government. That’s a crucial pointer to his character; dishonest, untrustworthy and lacking principles. Again no media scrutiny.

    However, behind Liealot’s assassination of Turnbull are the Machiavellian machinations of Minchin, Robb and Howard to make it a three way contest. We all know Sloppy threw his hat into the ring after a visit to arch plotter the slippery sewer dweller Howard and his ghastly spouse, Hyacinth.

    If it had just been Turnbull and Liealot, I’d say Turnbull would have won, although he had suffered a critical wound at the hands of Rudd and Swan.

    Mr. Abbott has not said he would not go ahead with a scheme similar to work Choices. He said it was dead….

    He has said SerfChoices is dead and will not be resurrected, but we all know how reliable his word is. And the architect of SerfChoices, that paragon of honesty, Peter Reith is slithering around drafting a new model. Is there any liklihood they’ll parade the reindroduction of SerfChoices in an election campaign? Three guesses and the first two don’t count!

  63. Patricia, and being somewhat overlooked by the media is that Abbott’s Nauru solution has received an equal FAIL by the High Court.

  64. Can someone shake me and wake me up..I’m clearly dreaming..courtesy of none other than the Courier Mail:

    PLEASE, can someone explain what exactly it is we are supposed to be frightened of?
    Can someone tell me how a trickle of the world’s dispossessed – desperate for a new start in life and enterprising and motivated enough to make their way to our shores – is somehow a threat?

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/opinion/all-we-have-to-fear-is-the-bigotry-displayed-towards-asylum-seekers/story-e6frerdf-1226130175717

  65. I just posted this at TPS at TPS for Talk Turkey. Then it occurred to me that other dog lovers, surfers, parents of skateboarders, or anyone who needs cheering up might like it too! This High Court decision on top of all the character assassination and sleaze in the MSM has been pretty depressing for true believers. I hope the PM has a good dog along with Tim to greet her when she does get back from a hard day at the office.

  66. patricia, I get so annoyed with both the major Parties.
    Labor has acted against it’s own decision made at their national conference.
    The Coalition, some, see nothing wrong with ‘stopping the boats’ and as Abbott said on TV again a few days ago, ‘turn the boats around where possible’…..whatever that means.

    We are a laughing stock in the eyes of the countries who have genuine stresses placed on them because of the tens of thousands of asylum seekers landing on their shores. Italy, Spain, Greece.

    Australia is the only country which locks up asylum seekers.
    Piddling numbers which are nothing compared to other countries.

  67. Pip, what turning the boats around means is that our service personnel will be put at risk because of being continuously confronted by desperate people. It will also substantially increase the risk of people smugglers scuttling their own boats. It will also require service personnel boarding boats and making value judgements as to the seaworthiness of the boats before ‘turning them back’. This is giving due regard to the fact that above all, the rule is preservation of life at sea.

  68. Min, it shows just how little thought has gone into the Abbott comments. Nothing new there.
    As you point out, the potential for lives to be lost with his ‘turn the boats around’ is unthinkable.

  69. Pip @12.14pm, hence the black mark. He and the Liars Party deserve each other.

    The dingbats do seem hellbent on a new election & DD asap Pip and they seem to think if they chant it often enough they’ll wear the PM down so they get their own way.

    Like kids nagging for the latest toy. “Gimme an election! I want an election! I’ll hold my breath!” Please do and if you can’t keep holding you breath, I’d be happy to stick a pillow over your face and press very, very hard!

    patriciawa, although I wasn’t altogether happy with the Malysian solution, I felt a bit better about it when the Malaysian government announced they are/were going to make life easier for asylum seekers trapped there, by allowing them to get jobs and live more freely in Malaysian society. I can’t provide a link, because I’m not sure whether it was a report on tv, or a link at the Café.

    I still think onshore processing is the way to go, although I think there should be a month detention to enable health checks and education such as English lessons for those who don’t speak it.

    lunalava, the MSUs were on Ruddock’s watch, I think. Vanstone inherited that nest of vipers. I think she was being punished by the Rodent, because I reckon she’d criticised the treatment of the boat people. So the slimy git shoved her there as a punishment and to force herultimate resignation.

    I remember her being interviewed shortly after she was lumbered with the portfolio. She looked really uncomfortable and it evident to me at least, that she really hated what was being done to the asylum seekers. She didn’t contest the next election, if I remember rightly.

    Min, the Nauru solution was spruiked by Mirabella on QandA last night. All you have to do is change the Act, and Liealot is waiting in the wings to give the PM the benefit of his benevolent experience and advice. Combet’s response was lukewarm. From memory, Jessica Irvine’s response lacked enthusiasm, too. To lift a quote from The Castle,”Tell him he’s dreaming!”

    Are you sure you hadn’t been drinking re cordial, Min? Lol.

  70. Jane, hi de ho..haha and double haha, all you have to do is change The Act. All you have to do is to convince the High Court that they should go back on their original decision..easy bubs 🙄

    I do go a bit strange at times Jane 😀

  71. Great link, Min. I should never read the comments on a Ltd News site. I think I should write that out 1,000 times.

    @2.20pm, get a hold of yourself woman. That lovely Sir Liealot has offered to help just Change The Act and everything will be alright. Look into my eyes and say after me, Sir Liealot is really nice and Sophie Mirabella is intelligent. *Waves eyes hypnotically.*

    Makes mental note: No red food colouring for Min.

  72. Min. September 6, 2011 at 8:10 am
    After the election the Greens either vote for what Abbott wants or they trigger a DD. Not a biggie either way for the Coalition. My comment was that the looney greens probably would cut off their nose to spite their face. They do have form (voting down CPRS)
    anyhooo it may be a moot point as the senate may become friendly after the next election if Gillard can hang on long enough so a half senate election kicks in.
    I must admit the wedging of Labor has been pretty comprehensive over the past 4 weeks. They have underestimated Abbott once again. If I was Gillard I wouldn’t know which way to turn either. Would like to be a fly on the wall at Labor HQ and in Caucus. Hmmmmmm.

  73. Rasa, perhaps but of course even if Abbott or whoever could manufacture a DD trigger there is no guarantee that the electorate would deliver Abbott’s desired result – that being control of BOTH Houses of Parliament. Australians have a long history of not wanting any one Political Party to have absolute control of government and tend to vote in t’other direction.

  74. Augustus @ 1.19pm, thanks for the link about Bernardi and his fascist friend Mr. Wilders.

    Controversial Dutch politician Geert Wilders is coming to Australia with the support of senior Liberal senator Cory Bernardi.

    Mr Wilders, who controls the balance of power in the Netherlands’ parliament, has outraged Dutch Muslims by comparing the Koran to Hitler’s Mein Kampf and calling the Prophet Muhamamad a paedophile.

    In a statement to Foreign Correspondent, Senator Bernardi confirmed he has offered to help arrange meetings and a schedule for Mr Wilders in Australia.

    **
    I bit the bullet and had a read of Senator Bernardi’s missive about being a godfather. His language has the ring of very old style religious instruction to me.
    http://www.corybernardi.com/

    Whatever ones personal belief in matters of faith, one cannot separate the life of Christ and its importance to western culture. Our society is built on the Judeo-Christian tradition that serves as the bedrock of our civilisation.

    However there are concerted forces that work to undermine these enduring values by constantly seeking ways to reduce their importance in the public eye. Through insisting upon an equivalence of culture, decrying the Christian faith as a force for good and promoting moral relativity, the anti-Christian forces pursue their agenda in the public sphere.

    In doing so, they have weakened the essential bonds that bind us together as a society. It is evidenced by an increasing array of anti-social behaviour which can be linked to the gradual abandonment of our traditional values.

    The challenge ahead is to restore these values as a central part of what makes our community function in an orderly and cohesive manner.

    How he plans to ‘restore these values’ is just a bit concerning.

  75. Min @3.46pm and we know what happened when the Rodent got control of both houses, so I think it would be unlikely that they’d be dumb enough to give Liealot control of both houses.

    rasa, Gillard will hang on until the end of 2013 and by that time Liealot will have shot himself in both feet.

    It’s a bit of a leap to say that Liealot has wedged the government. On what?

    They don’t need him to find a solution for processing asylum seekers. He is powerless to influence any decision. His track record is big noting, three word slogans, mouthing off in QT and doing bugger all when legislation is there to be debated. Name me one piece of legislation he has debated, proposed amendments for or stopped.

    Soon the carbon pricing legislation will be passed and Liealot will be impotent to remove or alter it. And should he be elected, unless he gets BOP in the Senate, his term in government will be marked by failure and impotence and the enduring record of being the worst government this country has ever had!

    And we haven’t seen any properly costed policies from him yet. By costing, I don’t mean a dodgy accountant checking the adding up with a $2 shop calculator.

    What if he can’t find the elusive $70bn in spending cuts to fund his slash and burn policies, which he’s already denies he promised, btw? Maybe it’s just another brain fart or yet another lie.

    Will you be happy to be slugged a lot more tax for drastically reduced services,so he can pay the bribes he’s promised to his mates in big business? I’m bloody sure I won’t be.

  76. Jane,
    A DD election would be the mother of all scare campaigns as it would be all about WorkChoices and look what happened when Howard had total control.

    I fully concur with all of your statements.

  77. Jane, thanks for reminding me of the dodgy budget costings .

    What happened to the investigation into the two accountants involved?

    The last I read was that the Chartered Accountants Association was still investigating……it’s been a year

    http://www.petermartin.com.au/2010/09/thursday-column-could-constingsgate.html

    Thursday, May 12, 2011
    Coalition’s “auditors” still under investigation
    Ahead of tonight’s Budget in Reply speech the Institute of Chartered Accountants has revealed that the two Perth accountants who advised Tony Abbott on the $50 billion of savings he put forward in the last election remain under investigation.

    Geoff Kidd and Cyrus Patell of WHK Horwath signed a statement endorsing the Coalition’s costings released two days before the 2010 election despite promising the Coalition in a separate letter to make no inquires about “the reasonableness of otherwise of the assumptions used”.

  78. Hi Anthony, the story seems to have sunk, but the only person to report it was Peter Martin, so I’m hoping he’ll have another look at it soon. There isn’t much to be found on Google.

    The Main Stream Media have carefully avoided any mention.

  79. Antony, you’re welcome, I’ll have a play around with search titles on google later and see what happens, but I’m not hopeful.
    I s’pose one could try ‘Hockey and Robb caught pulling swifty’ 😀

    It was a monumental stuffup of a deceitful nature and it has disappeared ….what can that mean I wonder…..the culprits are a protected species perhaps…

  80. Jane on September 6, 2011 at 4:39 pm
    So Jane I suppose you produced your thoughtful comment before Gillard today invited Abbott to assist to bring about a permanent offshore processing regime?
    It just like telling a good joke. It is all in the timing.
    You will get the drift during the next sitting of parliament. I’m going to enjoy the wedging between the Greens who want no border control, some Labor who want offshore processing but not Malaysia. Coaxing Abbott support for legislation but he has said only Nauru. The 59% 2PP who just want a government to control our borders.
    ….. and the breathtaking decision to introduce the Carbon Tax when those that will decide Gillard’s fate have emphatically opposed it.
    You guys play the card game 500? Gillard is calling Open Misere. Her “Long game” is to win the next election by losing every hand.
    … breathtaking. …. absolutely breathtaking.
    Sorry I was out of the loop today and was tardy responding. … up to my armpits in alligators at work at the moment.

  81. Rasa, for the next 2 years those that will decide Gillard’s fate are the Independents , Oakshott, Windsor and Wilkie and they support the Carbon tax.
    Lay down misere, isn’t that what you call it?
    Breathtaking, absolutely!

  82. Min. on September 6, 2011 at 3:46 pm
    Min you have hit the nail on the head. Why the electorate is so aggro is that Gillard and Independants and Greens that we did not vote for are bringing in policies we don’t want. The anger in the electorate is palpable. Gillard promised she would not bring in a Carbon Tax. All voters cast their ballott based on that lie. Now they are pissed. It ain’t going to go away. You know who is the first casualty of Gillard’s lie (and consistent incompetence)?
    Anna Bligh. She hits the hustings probably before Christmas, if not early next year. Anna would be saying …. thank you very much Gillard. … aren’t we supposed to be on the same side?????
    … I am going to enjoy the long game. I fear though that Gillard will get speared long before we have had enough fun with her. She won’t but I hope she does last till 2013.

  83. Sorry all that the PM has done is arrange a briefing so that Mr. Abbott will know what he is talking about.

    It will be interesting to see what Mr. Abbott has to say after the briefing.

    The PM has not lifted the phone up, I suspect, the PM is not even answering the phone.

    Mr. Abbott will have as little influence in this matter as he has in all others. He will be on the sidelines as he is now, jumping up and down, saying, me, me me.

    The legislation will continue to go through as it is now.

    Labor will continue to have the numbers where it counts, on the floor of the lower house.

  84. So Rasa it’s alright for Abbott to constantly lie nearly every day aided and abetted by the media but it’s not OK for Gillard to say something before circumstances change. Abbott has now used the circumstances change excuse twice now as an excuse for his lies, so why aren’t you jumping down his throat?

    O’Farrell after a sting of lies and broken election promises, all major, has just released his first budget that is full of broken election promises and the first NSW deficit in 13 years.

    Howard bought in many policy the majority did not agree with and Abbott has promised policies most don’t agree with. So why are you signalling out just Gillard?

    And can you please point out the consistent incompetencies with the facts and figures please, not the Ltd. News and Abbott’s lies on them?

  85. CU, I have heard that Abbott requested the briefing be held in
    Brisbane, so I suppose all the Public servants will need to fly there, instead of the Abbott coming to Canberra. Particularly as he will need to be there next week.
    Seems a big cost for someone who probably won’t listen anyway.

  86. Rasa, the news just said that Mr. Abbott accepted the PM’s offer of a briefing.

    It is a long shot to turn that into that the PM has accepted his help.

    This is not the site to twist words to back false arguments.

  87. O’Farrell’s budget worth a topic. Straight out of the Howard/Kennett slash and burn early book of tricks whilst promising riches down the track. You have to suffer now but it will all be worth it in the end as long as you keep voting for me. More public asset sell offs and the gutting of the PS, both of which are always lose/lose in the long term.

    Yet again under a Liberal government pensioners are the big losers, yet these same pensioners will continue to vote Liberal even though it is nearly always Liberal governments who screw them. They don’t like change and Labor represents reform and change that even though good for pensioners, scares them, so they go with the lies of the Liberals.

    Oh and no surprise the O’Farrell shocker of a budget, including a whopping deficit, was mostly reported neutrally or slightly positively by the media. If Labor had bought down this budget they would have been loudly condemned from here to the next election and beyond.

  88. Sue, on September 6, 2011 at 8:24 pm
    I assume you have kept up with the polling. Oakshott is done and dusted. There is no salvation for him. Wilkie is now dependant on a deal to get the Coalition preferences. At the end of the negotiations he will realise the Coalition doesn’t need him. Whether he gets the seat back or labor get the seat the end game doesn’t change. Wilkie’s five minutes of fame is …. goooone.
    Windsor is likely finished also.
    As for the rest of the Labor seats in the Makkeras Pendulum up to about 11%………..Bendigo in Victoria is probably where the blood starts to slow.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-election_pendulum_for_the_Australian_federal_election,_2010

    …………………..It ain’t rocket surgery

  89. Sue, especially as he live in Sydney.

    I suppose that is another trip to I think a glass factory, for a photo op, to continue his ever lasting election campaign.

    Expensive photos, for us.

    Sue, I hope you did not mind me changeing your comment. I made another boo boo.

  90. Oh and O’Farrell in probably breaking his biggest election promise has put up taxes.

    Did I hear outrage and screaming from the media over this and was Abbott and Hockey ranting and raving about a government putting up taxes as only incompetent governments do that?

    The chirp of crickets was my answer.

  91. Catching up.on September 6, 2011 at 8:39 pm
    …………………… really?
    Catching Up. ………..Gillard is wedged.
    Denial ain’t a river in Africa.

  92. Rasa trolling methinks. Avoids debating and just throws in nonsense statements framed to gee up.

    Might prove me wrong.

  93. ME the MRRT is still to be introduced into parliament, who is to say that the refund of royalties as levied by the states, will stay in the legislation particularly with the states hiking the rates and the greens wanting a bigger share of the profits for all Australians.

  94. Oh and O’Farrell put up the NSW mining royalty tax by a whopping amount. Bet the miners wish they had stuck to State Labor and Rudd’s RSPT now.

  95. “I assume you have kept up with the polling. Oakeshott is done and dusted. There is no ”

    Polling that has already proven to be suspect. I for one do not take must notice of a paper that is an organ of the Nationals and has already been forced to shut down.

    Rasa, do you not suspect that Mr. Oakeshott was aware of the risks he took when he decided to back the PM.

    If he was worried about the outcome, would have he gone ahead to support the PM.

    If the people in his electorate wanted a National MP, they would have voted for one. They did not.

    The truth is that it is an Gillard government until the next election. Who wins is in the hands of the voters.

    What you need to talk about is what Mr. Abbott is offering, that is if you know, because I am not sure he does.

    Mr. Abbott has not looked that far ahead. I am sure that Mr. Howard and Mr. Reith will fill him in.

  96. Rasa that is 2 years away. It is in the interest of Oakshott, Windsor and Wilkie to keep the government in power for the next 2 years/ Think of all the legislation that can be passed in that time. Legislation that benefits Australians now and into the future.

  97. Want to know what Abbott offers apart from brain farts and mind freezes?

    Look at O’Farrell and multiply his string of broken promises and failing in such a short time by ten or more and you’ll be close to it.

  98. Having made the right choice in backing Gillard and finding out after the election Abbott would have used them to go to an election within the year, I think the Oakshot and Windsor will not be too upset if the lose the next election for they will have had two years longer than they would have under Abbott, and three years where they have made a real difference and bought in many good policies, which would not have happened under Abbott.

    Whilst a look back at Abbott’s time will be one of empty rhetoric, economic failings and social disharmony, Oakshot and Windsor will be able to look back at their time with some pride and sense of accomplishment.

  99. Rasa, you’re a great one for counting your chickens, aren’t you? I think the scam is called rope-a-dope. Suck Liealot in and deliver the coup de grace. i look forward to Liealot’s demise.

    There won’t be a wedge, but dream on.

    And your breathtaking stupidity is on display. The government has a legislative program which it is carrying out, without any opposition from the opposition. Gee they’re really responding to that 59%, aren’t they?

    Really getting in there and doing all they can to carry out the wishes of their constituents, by doing……er um er um er well bugger all! But they’ve got some slogans.

    Wow! you clowns are being represented magnificently aren’t you? Heaps of strutting, grand standing, brown nosing creatures like Anal Jones, shouting slogans, organising flops like the Convoy of Stupidity. What a proud record!

    I guess if all you want is a mob whose sole achievement in government would be to do sod all except impose a GREAT BIG NEW TAX to hand over to their billionaire mates like Clive Palmer and Twiggy Forrest, the Liars Party is ideal.

    As it happens the ALP, the Greens and the Independents got more votes than you dingbats, so suck it up. Obviously the majority of voters did want the legislation you whingers don’t. I repeat; suck it up.

    And do you know what the best thing is? Liealot won’t be able to dismantle the legislation even if he gets his paws on power!!!

    Next best will be seeing all you dingbat losers crying in your beer when the scales fall from your eyes and you realise you’ve voted for the worst government in the history of governments, run by the most incompetent talentless bunch of second raters ever to draw breath.

    Your mob lost. Get over it, you born to rule loser. But before I close my comment, think on this; if Liealot and the Liars party weren’t such lying, untrustworthy scumbags, they’d be on the government benches right now.

    I hate to gloat, but SUCK IT UP!! Bwwahahahahahaha!

  100. Sue, I think Mr. Swan has indicated that the money they receive in rising royalties will be deducted from what the Commonwealth gives the states.

  101. No despair Cu, just astounded by the sheer up front blatancy of his string of broken promises, sometimes using the very excuses the previous Labor government used for their broken promises. Excuses O’Farrell heavily and constantly lambasted in opposition, yet O’Farrell is allowed to get away with them, and nary a whimper from the media that so heavily dumped on Labor.

  102. jane and ME, what people seemed to forget, there is much more to worry about when you get into government that the next election.

    It is what you do while you are there, not how many terms you have.

    Mr. Abbott is going to be too busy undoing every thing that the PM has put in place. Most is fully by legislation, not be regulation. That means all has to go through parliament.

    ME, people might be a little wary after a couple of years of Coalition state governments.

  103. Sorry all that the PM has done is arrange a briefing so that Mr. Abbott will know what he is talking about.

    Well, that’ll be a couple of hours the PM won’t get back, CU.

    ME @9.03pm, hear hear! I just had a rant at TPS along those lies. I’ll copy and paste for anyone who may be interested.

    Rasa, a good hunter has the rabbit in the bag, before celebrating.

    CU I’m going to pinch that little gem, with your permission.

    @9.52pm, hear! hear! to you as well, CU.

    This blog should be really proud of itself, imo. We’re so lucky to have the calibre of people who comment and write the posts and our indefatigable moderator, poster extrordinaire, keeper of the keys and all round bloody great blog mistress, Min.

    Let’s raise a glass to ourselves. *clink* Cheers everyone!

  104. And can you please point out the consistent incompetencies with the facts and figures please, not the Ltd. News and Abbott’s lies on them?

    Don’t hold your breath, ME. I can just see him/her writing the post now. Well there’s…. um ah, and then there’s….er er, and what about……er. So there!

    Sue @8.38pm, a lot of money particularly for someone always banging on about government waste!

    CU @8.39pm, Rasa will soon find out you get crucified here if you make unsupported statements.

    ME @8.40pm, and no scrutiny? I am,/strong> surprised!

    Once again Rasa chickens and eggs. It’s two years to the polls.

  105. Jane, use what you like. I do not know where it came from.

    All day I have been reading how the PM has been wedged etc. A vision come to mind of the PM quivering in the headlights like a rabbit.

    It made sense.

    I believe many are celebrating far too soon.

    Yes, I believe we do well on this site. I wandered over to another site, it was sickening.

    I do not know why one would waste time writing insults and name calling and expressing hate.

    Min is doing a great job. It is a shame that some old friends find it necessary to put the boot in.

    At least we are not getting it as bad as another site.

    You would think they would be happy with the polls so bad. It would be nice to know what the real problem is.

  106. CU
    As Albanese would they are having the longest hissy fit and can you imagine how whiny it will be when the carbon tax legislation is introduced next week.
    They need a distraction, How about a media inquiry? Which would be more important to them Climate or Media self preservation/ interest?

  107. CU, the wedge is the latest meme manufactured to try and bring the PM down, but she confounds the critics every time. I am filled with admiration for her.

    Ltd News conducts a poll every 5 minutes it seems, and each poll is more disastrous than the last. Abbott will be the triumphant winner in a landslide at the next election, we’re told. Labor will just be a rump and will never recover its numbers and on and on.

    The media predicts doom for Labor 24 hours a day, which brings me to their role in the perception of the government as illegitimate, incompetent, wasteful, do nothing and untruthful.

    But what I’ve noticed of late is that all these all-encompassing generalisations are thrown around with nothing specific to back up the claims. There is just a steady drumbeat of negativity about the government and its performance.

    Meanwhile, the opposition leader grandstands, bignotes himself, mouths three word slogans, appears at poorly organised and attended anti-government rallies and shows up at the opening of every envelope for a photo opportumity.

    We’re in no doubt what he says, his hollow rhetoric is rammed down our throats daily and is swallowed whole and then regurgitated by the uncritical media.

    It couldn’t get worse, you think, but have a look at the Parliamentary performance of this bunch of lazy, arrogant talentless hacks.

    The government has passed 188+ pieces of legislation this year and the carbon pricing legislation will come before the Parliament in the next couple of weeks.

    And what is the opposition’s attitude to this? Little Chrissy Whynne is whining because apparently it’s a distraction, ffs. Arguably one of the most important pieces of legislation the parliament has had tabled and it’s a distraction????

    From what, Mr Whynne? The government’s legislative program? Or because it will distract you from your busy program of grand standing, sloganeering and smear campaigns?

    Honestly, this mob is arguably the biggest waste of space since Menzies. A lazy, untrustworthy, rabble. They are a disgrace!

    I bet they don’t debate the carbon legislation or bother to put up amendments or do anything an opposition is supposed to do. They make a mockery of the Parliament and of them bloody selves. This behaviour is shameful and an insult to the people who voted for them, imo.

    They’ll snivel that they haven’t had any input although they couldn’t be bothered showing up to put in their two bob’s worth when it was being framed. Even now, when there has been ample opportunity to study it, they couldn’t be arsed to pull it apart and look for areas where they could negotiate amendments or suggest improvements.

    Their supporters are being dudded big time by this mob of arrogant, lazy, time wasting, seat warmers. Rasa and other dingbat cheerleaders seem either unaware or not to care that these idiots are not representing their interests at all.

    They never debate any legislation or try to amend it; they just wave it through. Perhaps they think that if they get elected, they’ll just amend it or rescind it. I’ve got news for them, the government has been vandal proofing their legislation, but they’ve been too busy pulling stunts to notice.

    And where has the media been in all this dereliction? Have they once scrutinised the opposition’s Parliamentary performance and the fact that they are not representing the people who voted for them, nor the people who say they intend to vote for them.

    It’s not just the media’s constant drumbeat of negativity about the government, it’s the fact that either by laziness or design, they never scrutinise the opposition’s complete dereliction of duty to their constituents.

    Shouldn’t this be a matter for concern? Should this poor performance be tolerated? After all it’s not like their salaries are inconsiderable. I bet there’s many an unemployed person who’d like to be paid a parliamentarian’s salary for doing sod all!

    Not exactly value for money; I wonder how Clive, Twiggy and Gina would regard an employee who did so very little for such a lot of money.

  108. Abbott is all about ‘strategy’ and it is going to be his undoing. My reasoning is that Abbott has been using shock tactics, that an another election is going to happen at any moment now. Ever since the Independents decided to support a Labor government, this has been Abbott’s strategy.

    Consider Abbott’s statements – that the Independents would change their minds any tick of the clock – an ‘illegitimate’ government – no mandate for the carbon tax – and of course all those famous rallies: What do we want..a double dissolution..when do we want it..NOW!

    All aimed at provoking a sense of urgency. Abbott’s enemy is time because as people realize that nothing is imminent at all, Abbott is going to have to find a way to count himself back into relevance.

  109. Next week in parliament will be a reminder to Abbott and gang of what they actually contribute to the debate,,,,,zilch, zero

    It is believed Labor has held talks with the Greens and independent MPs about a joint inquiry to avoid the passage of the bills being slowed by separate committees.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/labor-plan-to-hasten-debate-on-carbon-tax-20110906-1jvty.html#ixzz1XDbfwGRJ

    The independents and greens and labor have abbott’s number, they can rub it in.

  110. Sue, interesting one. While Abbott is continuing with his furphy about Nauru being an option Gillard is set to get the carbon tax through. I think that Abbott has been out-manouvered.

  111. Abbott is out there saying Nauru is still viable as an offshore processing centre. He makes that claim on supposedly having read the ruling of the recent High Court decision, but as it so often is with Abbott he obfuscates by omission and oversimplification.

    First a section from an article on the High Court decision and it’s repercussion written for non-legal readers. The link to the in depth (an very long) piece is at the end.

    The simple explanation of the legal advice that the government has received is that ‘the Solicitor-General and two other senior counsel can have no confidence that an arrangement with PNG or Nauru is possible under existing law as a result of this judgment’. (Read the advice.) On Nauru and their ‘declaration’, the justices said:

    it may need to be established that the access that has to be provided is ‘effective’ and that the requisite ‘protection’ is in fact afforded. There is also a question as to whether Nauru meets relevant human rights standards…

    Accordingly, we could be confident that Nauru would satisfy those criteria only if there were material that we were able to assess as capable of demonstrating to the satisfaction of an Australian court first: that appropriate arrangements were in place to ensure practical compliance by Nauru with its obligations under the Convention and the Protocol; and, secondly, that Nauru in its treatment of asylum seekers and refugees complied in practice with human rights standards acceptable at least to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees. That material would need to canvass complex issues of fact and degree concerning social conditions and standards of governance, which would ultimately need to be proved by admissible evidence in a court.

    Thus, the problem with Nauru is not just that they aren’t sure it would meet the relevant standards; rather, it is that complex issues of fact and degree would need to be proved about it in court, because these are jurisdictional facts, not simply matters for the Minister to say are true.

    For non-legals: a guide to the High Court’s ruling

    Nauru would fail under an Abbott government both as a deterent, it isn’t, and even if he got the law changed, legally. Refugees could no longer be “hidden” away and parked on Nauru, they would require the full gamut of access to legal representation and social/welfare services. If Naura can’t provide these or their’s isn’t up to standard then Australia would have to provide them or move the refugees to somewhere where they can be provided. The already horrendously expensive Pacific Solution in dollars as of Howard’s time has just become exponentially more expensive under any future Nauru detention, that is if it becomes legal to detain them there. And all this to process 0.5% of immigrants to this country.

  112. Mobius, also refer to the opinion of Frank Brennan in the topic header.

    There is also the fact that the High Court ruling completely rules out the option of deporting unaccompanied minors – the ruling states that as the Minister is their legal guardian, he/she cannot do anything which would be to their ‘detriment’. To explain this we need to go to Contract Law whereas a minor cannot enter into ‘a contract’, 17yr olds but only if the contract is to their benefit and not to their detriment..under 17yrs old not at all and a legal guardian likewise cannot take out a contract where it can be proven to be to the detriment of the minor.

    It is my opinion that the Minister would be unable to prove that deporting a minor to a 2nd country (out of Australia) could be anything else other than to the minor’s detriment. And by the Minister any future Minister included.

    Therefore a possible consequence is that irrespective of any possibility of an amendment to the Migration Act (in that it is not possible that this amendment could include minors) – is boatloads of unaccompanied minors as these are the only ones who couldn’t be warehoused.

  113. Yes Min, the ruling on unaccompanied minors is interesting in that the Minister has to give written permission for each one but rather than it just being a rubber stamp, as Senator Hill rubber stamped environmental exemptions during the Howard years, the Minister has to give full written and thus accountable reasoning for that permission and for each individual unaccompanied child.

    What the Gillard bashers don’t point out in this ruling is that it’s not just a failure of her government’s refugee policy but equally of the opposition’s refugee policy. If they bash the government over this they are also bashing the opposition.

  114. Mobius, precisely. The High Court ruling has thrown the whole idea of offshore processing into disarray. I’m not 100% about this one, but when boats enter Australian Territorial Waters is this when the Minister becomes the child’s legal guardian? If so, then how could an Abbott ministry turn back the boats.

  115. I hadn’t thought of that Min.

    So yet another example of where Abbott’s policy is as much a failure as the governments. But we aren’t allowed to point these opposition failures out for fear of being called “barrackers”.

  116. It makes sense doesn’t it..if the Minister is the children’s legal guardian, how then can he the Minister pack them off back out to sea.

  117. What will happen, as happened under Howard’s change to family immigration that saw a large increase in women and children on boats, is that boatloads of unaccompanied children will be put onto the boats.

    Wonder of the shock jocks and Abbott will froth up about their heartfelt concern for the safety of refugees on that happening as a direct result of Abbott’s policy?

  118. Mobius, spot on..because the Howard government brought in TPVs with no family reunions allowed, we saw a huge increase of women and children on the boats. And Abbott wants to bring back TPVs as ‘a deterrent’…..

  119. Just a few thoughts while watching the box. Everything the opposition says is now in triplicate. up, up up, down, down, . There Is one word they dare not use. “PM”.

    The Chaplaincy scheme has just been altered.  The guidelines tightened up and extended to allow welfare workers.  It will be interesting to see how many schools change their present arrangements.  I cannot see many schools not taking up the offer.  All school need some one who works with the family as well as the child.
     
    I would say the High Court challenged might be won.  Garrett denied this.
     
    Clever way of discontinuing a scheme without getting rid of it.  I refuse to believe that the PM ever supported it, no matter what she said.  Hers was purely a political decision as far as I am concerned.

    Annoying, the idiot is back on the box,  Nothing new to say. He is onto saving jobs.
     
    It is the anniversary since the independents made their choice.  He is rehashing that she was elected.  She is floundering.  He has to be more extreme in what he says.
     
    She must raised this with Nauru. It is no used her going unless she does this.  There are no other issues.  Funny the NZ PM said, that he has more important things to do.
     
    He says we will have Nauru, we will have TPV, we will be turning the boats around.  Will we?  That is enough of the idiot.
     
    I do not know if he is putting on a serious face, or if he is worried.
     
    We have a new one.  harder, harder, harder.  She must, she must.  Why?
     
    Why is not he criticise for talking down to people as if they are stupid.
     
    He is going into the meeting with his mind made up.  He just told us so.  I clever man would have made the answer that I have nothing to say until I have the briefing.  He misses the point, they may not be serious about off shore processing.  We need to keep the emails up to the PM.
     
     
    He has been asked if he made up his mind regardless of the briefing. He is stating that is government policy. Stupid me, I thought the matter was in flux, that they are looking at the policy.
     
    The stuttering has began, he will soon walk away.
     
     
    He was told he seems very bitter about the anniversary.    Just not right, he is standing up
    for decency in our democracy. He has gone, the questions following him.  I am waiting for the day when they have the guts to follow him, with the mikes in his face.
     
    Decency??
     

    Oh, and expecting to have the carbon pricing bill through by November is rushing thins. Bill which the information has been in the public arena for months.

    Maybe if the Opposition focus on what is occurring in parliament instead of performing stunts each day, they may have been ready to debate the bills.

    November is good enough to ensure they say what they are supposed to do.  

  120. “But what I’ve noticed of late is that all these all-encompassing generalisations are thrown around with nothing specific to back up the claims. There is just a steady drumbeat of negativity about the government and its performance”

    Jane, you have summed up what I was trying to say about Mr. Abbott’s and Mr Joyce’s recent appearances on the ABC24 this morning. Manage to get every negative in, but there was no connection between what they are saying. The reporter was correct, the bitterness is showing through. It is like they do not believe the government is here twelve months later.

    Now watching the Press Club address. Much more positive and factual. The lady is actually saying something, important matters that affect us all. The asylum seeker’s issues seem to be well down the ladder.

  121. “Abbott is all about ‘strategy’ and it is going to be his undoing. ”

    Min, I hate to disagree, word is stunts, not strategy.

    If he had the ability for strategy, he might not come across as being so much a bully.

    His demanding that the PM does as he says is little beyond the pale.

    He is acting as a bully does.

  122. It worked for O’Farrell Cu and now in power he’s turning out to be as much a failure as the constant negative rhetoric he spouted against the government when in opposition.

    As an aside:

    Senator’s shoplifting case back in court

    Updated September 07, 2011 11:55:35

    Prosecutors have taken instructions from the Crown Solicitor and intend proceeding with charges against a Liberal Senator.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-07/senator-fisher-shoplifting-assault-charges/2874954

  123. “What the Gillard bashers don’t point out in this ruling is that it’s not just a failure of her government’s refugee policy but equally of the opposition’s refugee policy. If they bash the government over this they are also bashing the opposition.”

    It was Mr. Howard’s act that is found wanting.

    It was never challenged because the asylum seekers were denied their rights to the courts.

    It is said that it is open for those sent back to their countries to seek compensation.

    The only thing stopping them maybe the statue of limitations. That can often be lifted under law, if it can be prove natural justice is not occurring.

  124. CU, precisely. I read comments stating Why was this never previously challenged in court…it is because we needed the January ruling before the 2nd ruling. The Statute of Limitations (at least in NSW) can be waived as long as the applicant can provide a reasonable reason to the court as to the reason for the delay.

  125. ME, I think the Senator and her backers pissed off the police by destroying the evidence. Police do not like being pissed off.

    You are right about the NSW’s state government. It lacks any depth or ability. The media will not be able to continue to cover up.

    Now for the problems at hand that the Opposition is highlighting as important and urgent. Other do not appear to be seeing the issue this way.

    I would like to point out, there is not one issue, there are three.

    1 How do we treat asylum seekers that reach our shores. How the got here is immaterial in this matter. The moral and legal obligations indicate that they should be assessed and processed as quickly as possible. The cheapest and most efficient way to do this is on shore.

    2 Border security. Is not a problem as none are invading this country or entering secretly. Our borders are well protected. Border security is up to our armed forces, not the immigration department.

    3 The boat trade. This is an issue separate to how we treat asylum seekers. One is not and should be dependent on the other. Malaysia summed it up when they stated that the answer is to be found in cooperation among all in the region. There is much we can do in this regard without punishing the victims. It is unlikely the trade can be wiped out. No other country with massive asylum and boat trade problems have not been able to do this.

    Treat the asylum seekers fairly and focus on the boat trade makes sense. While we attempt to tie the three together, no answers will be found.

  126. Lots of interesting stats at: http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/09/06/what-happened-as-a-result-of-tpvs-and-the-pacific-solution/

    On the subject of TPVs…

    The numbers on Temporary Protection Visas are clearer. They were introduced in 1999 and ended in 2008. There were 11,206 issued. When they were abolished, 88% of temporary visa holders had already been granted permanent status. Just over 1000 people were still on TPVs when they were abolished; 815 of these were made permanent afterward. Of the 11,000 or so TPVs issued, 379 holders had left Australia in the interim; that is, “temporary protection visas” ended up being temporary for 3.4% of those issued them.

  127. Min & Sue, spot on. You couldn’t be more spot on even if you had measles!

    Min @9.39am, tee hee! Now who’s been wedged, Rasa?

    ME @10.54am, even if he read it, would he have a clue what it says?

    Min & ME, really interesting points being raised and it would seem very difficult to circumvent, particularly as boat arrivals can’t be denied access to legal advice, which is how the High Court challenge was able to be mounted in the first place.

    And as you say ME, a bottomless pit of money being spent to persecute a measly .5% of the intake. I have a vague recollection that the Howard government had spent well in excess of $500 million on the “Pacific Solution” to finance its demonisation of these unfortunates and keep the red necks onside.

    And this is the government which is lauded in the msm and amongst cheerleaders as being sound economic managers! What cost a dog whistle, eh! And only an infinitesimally small scrutiny of this example of waste and mismanagement which would be continued if the Liars Party got government.

    You know, perhaps this is the way we should be tackling dingbattery. The threat of ever increasing tax to finance the Pacific Solution. If there’s anything a dingbat hates, it’s having to pay their way.

    If so, then how could an Abbott ministry turn back the boats.

    Min, would you stick that under a door to stop it slamming? Oh dear, wedger wedged. Message to Rasa-chickens+eggs. Bwwahahahahaha!

    CU @12.32pm, the opposition isn’t interested in actually doing their job! They could have had their say when the government, the Independents and the Greens were formulating the bill. They were invited to participate, but like spoiled children, pouted , stamped their feet and took their bat and ball and stormed off! Very mature.

    And it all goes to the point I’ve been harping on for a while-they are NOT representing their constituents; the only constituents they want to represent are the Twiggies and Ginas. They’ve got the dingbats completely fooled; if even one of these clowns turned the shock jocks off and started to think about just what the Liars Party is doing to get their pov communicated they would be horrified to realise that the mob they trust to represent them is doing sfa.

    It was Mr. Howard’s act that is found wanting.

    Exactly,CU.The government inherited this viper’s nest from the Rodent.

  128. CU, I also believe that the Liars Party tried to pressure the store manager, the security guard and witnesses to withdraw their complaints and statements. You’re right, that stuff doesn’t go down too well with the cops.

  129. Jane, she did several things which are highly disapproved of – tried to run away, proportedly assaulted a security guard and then tried to wriggle and squirm out of the charges. On charges such as these the court will be looking for something called ‘remorse’ and she could get away with say 6 months to be of good behaviour, minus remorse she could be in trouble.

  130. That is quite an understatement from the media, 1.2% growth in the economy is good news for the government. What was that about the Liberals being superior economonic managers.

  131. The Nauru leader has just said in a news item, that the asylum issue is not an priory with him.

    If anyone needs to talk about it, that is OK with him.

    Maybe the man has a more important agenda to address.

    Maybe his priority is getting as much aid as possible from those attending the forum.

    There other more important things than Mr. Abbott’s bullying demands.

    Mr. Abbott is wrong, nothing unusual to keep saying he knows what the PM’s policy is.

    The PM is clear that they are in the process of forming a new policy.

    When things change, new policy is required.

    This is something that Mr. Abbott is incapable of. He is struck in the past, defending Mr. Howard’s policy.

    Maybe he should not be so lazy and come up with one of his own that deals with today’s problems, not yesterdays

    This is where his focus should be, not thinking up stunts, which this morning’s press conference was.

  132. We should not forget when looking at clear up rate for Nauru, NZ took many. This was a one off exercise. These numbers should be counted in with those who came to Australia.

  133. CU, I think that I can see your point. The numbers that NZ took in should be counted as genuine refugees. I read a wonderful story a while back how a young girl from the Tampa (one of Australia’s rejects) went on to score top in NZ for her Year 12 and to study medicine.

  134. “Gillard enlists Abbott on asylum compromise”

    I must be blind. Where on this page the is they evidence to back the headlines?

    Maybe this it it?

    “…Tony Abbott is in Brisbane to visit a business that will be hit by the carbon tax, and to call on the Prime Minister to speak to Nauru about an asylum seeker deal….”

    Business hit by the non existent carbon tax. There should be an “alleged” somewhere.

    “…Despite their better instincts, Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott may yet work together to restore offshore processing. …

    They may? Does not play in with what the PM is saying, that she wants him to have all the facts.

    “…..afternoon, Mr Abbott will meet with Immigration Department boss Andrew Metcalfe and other government officials at the Brisbane Commonwealth Parliamentary Offices. The officials will brief him on ways to get around the High Court’s ruling on the Malaysian solution….”

    Does this ring true. I have heard no other say it. I assumed that the meeting was about what the judgement meant and the obtaining of facts as the PM pointed out.

    The spin is nearing on the ridiculous.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/capital-circle/gillard-enlists-abbott/story-fn59nqgy-1226131044933

  135. “NZ took in should be counted as genuine refugees.”

    Mirabella is trying to get away with forty odd parent asylum rate. Some definitely went to NZ after Howard twisted their arm. I seeem to remember other countries such as Canada was also took some.

  136. CU, yes Abbott has decided to be briefed on the legal implications at Gillard’s invitation. That’s it. I hope that it won’t be too painful for Tone..all those big words…

  137. Sadly Min, that it is not being described that way in the media.

    Virginia did not get the message this morning. Nauru maybe the main thing on Mr. Abbott’s mind. there are many more important matters on other minds.

    The parliamentary pointed out, that it is not unusual to pick up and talk at any time.

  138. I know I have been putting forward an alternative way of dealing with boat trade.

    That is what we are really talking about.

    I also have the feeling, as much as I do not like it, the Malaysian Solution might still be the best option

    It has not been reported widely, but Mr. Abbott said he is unhappy if the 4000 over four years continue to come from Malaysia.

    Why, these are people who have waited on a queue, sadly a queue that goes no where. .

  139. CU, a difficulty with the boat trade is that the boats come from Indonesia a country where people smuggling is not considered a serious crime. Some background is at:

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/jakarta-part-of-solution/story-e6frg7ef-1225705481605

    While converted Indonesian fishing boats mostly are bringing the asylum seekers south, and as fishing boats they could be stopped and inspected within the EEZ, Australia has no capacity to turn back the boats. Even if this option did exist, there is the risk of a significant maritime tragedy given their often unseaworthy state, and the Rudd Government would not want a repeat of the 2001 SIEV X incident when 353 people drowned attempting to cross the Timor Sea. In the adjacent Indonesian EEZ, Border Protection Command has no legal interception powers.

  140. The set for tonight’s comedy looks like they have just taken over what was used for Kath and Kim,with the government house as the family home.

    The producers cannot make their minds up whether it is political satire or sitcom.. The producer will not do one about Abbott, he is not interesting enough.

    If you are confused, so am I.

    By the way, the producer thinks the present PM will be around for a fair while.

  141. CU,

    If not why not surely Tony in lycra is a great joke and we can all sit and laugh about his virgin daughters. That sort of humor doesn’t appeal. However I suppose that I should wait and see the show before I cast judgement.

  142. Same here Anthony but I am not holding much hope. The shorts even show the butchers shop idea from Kath and Kim.

  143. CU, you will have to tell me the bad news…

    I’m just watching J. Bishop on Sky and the shadow foreign affairs person says that the PM should sit down with the PM of Nauru and discuss people smuggling. How on earth could the PM of Nauru influence a decision of the Australian High Court..or am I missing something….

    Oh goody even David Speers has got it, how can the PM of Nauru change a decision of the High Court.

  144. Hi all, I ‘ve just skimmed your conversation and my little contribution is just an observation I heard on a talkback segment on the weekend.

    Caller,

    ” My name’s Mahommed, you know mate, five years ago we were Lebnese, or Pakistani or Iraqi or whatever…..now, we’re all Muslims.”

  145. Apparently Abbott once offered to sack Bernardi,

    “Parliamentary secretary for immigration Kate Lundy says Mr Abbott must sanction Senator Bernardi.
    “He said previously that if Senator Bernardi continued to express intolerant and extreme views that he would sanction Senator Bernardi and sack him from his front-bench position,” Senator Lundy said.
    “Where is he now, now that this issue has been raised again?”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-07/abbott-denies-bernardi-involved-in-wilders-visit/2875402

    So in an attempt to confuse the media (and that ain’t hard) Abbott contradicted
    Bernardi. Who is the LIAR, Abbott or Bernardi come on media investigate!

    “South Australian Liberal Senator Cory Bernardi wrote in a blog that he had invited Mr Wilders to visit Australia, and confirmed to the ABC he had offered to help arrange meetings and a schedule for the MP.

    Tony Abbott says neither the Opposition, nor Senator Bernardi has any involvement with Mr Wilders’s plans.”

  146. Sue Abbott appears to be trying to moderate the ultra extreme right wing nut jobs now in ascendancy in the Liberal Party.
    Hard to believe, but it appears that some crazy political extremes are too much even for Abbott. Then again he might just be trying to shore up his leadership position with the few remaining little L Liberals who might “walk”.

  147. Just me trying to understand this..Wilders said,

    “I met one of your senators, Senator Cory Bernardi, not so long ago. He invited me to help him at least when I would visit Australia, and I will certainly do that as soon as I can.”

    But Abbott says that Bernardi didn’t invite him…

    Tony Abbott says neither the Opposition, nor Senator Bernardi has any involvement with Mr Wilders’s plans.

    So who is telling fibs, Wilders or Abbott…

  148. Who has Mr. Abbott being talking to. What the Nauru Presidents said in context.

    “…..”It would be rude of me if I raised it with her; it’s not the right thing to do,” Mr Stephen said.

    “If Australia wants to raise it, that’s up to Australia and if not, then I’m not going to raise it.

    “I can appreciate the politics of it and well, they’re entitled to it. I would prefer that Nauru is left out of the debate and not being bashed around.”

    And Mr Stephen has indicated he would want changes to how asylum seekers were treated if the centre was reopened on Nauru.

    “I mean we’re all humans, we’ll all be concerned what happens to other humans; how they’re treated,” he said.

    “I’ve been saying since last year that this Nauru bashing, which I didn’t appreciate – really the centre wasn’t run by us… I hope that people are clear that we don’t run the centre.”…..”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-07/abbott-responds-to-asylum-briefing/2875560

  149. Virginia did not get the message this morning.

    Does she ever, CU?

    lunalava, @7.48pm, perhaps it’s dawning on him that pandering to the dingbattery may not have been such a good idea. And he might not be able to control them. Which makes me wonder if something has happened to spook the bastard.

    He’s not a strong leader, not a leader’s bootlace, in fact. He’s a follower, always has been and now that the creep Bernardi has invited Wilders out here, I’m guessing without consulting Liealot, he is terrified that the wing nuts are taking over.

    And if the wing nuts do take control, the Liars Party might implode!

    BTW, Sir Fibalot is my pick; it’s his default position and he adopts it immediately he is challenged.

    I also wonder if he’s having a spot of angst over how Gillard has sidestepped his wedge so quickly and easily.

  150. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall at the briefing.

    You know listening to the ah ahaha and from the other one, the barrister I would not use if I was in trouble, but that not true. This etc. Neither listening.

  151. I enjoyed it, Min! Had some really good laughs, and not at JG’s expense! I think it’s going to be good satire from all angles! ‘Tim’ will win hearts everywhere. Their dog, ‘Bill Shorten’ is a darling. ‘Bob Katter’ ‘Rob Oakeshott’ and ‘Tony Windsor’ were brilliant. I can’t wait to to see their ‘Tony Abbott’ – I wonder who will play him and if he’ll appear in his budgie smugglers,

    And ‘Julia’ is so far away from the real thing, but juggling with all the usual female stuff like packing and not being able to cook in face of being PM, that I think she’s quite endearing.

  152. Hi Patricia, I watched the first 30 seconds and flipped to Inspector Wexford….I’d seen it before and couldn’t remember how it ended so watched it again….I’m not as brave as you 🙂

  153. If Julia can grin and bear it, so can we! I think people will enjoy the send ups on various characters, with all the little asides and ‘insider’ jokes. I wonder if she’d been shown some scripts and that’s why she okayed it.

  154. Patricia, that’s good news about the Julia and Tim show…it could backfire if anyone thinks that it’s a venue to ridicule as if it’s fun and good satire it could be excellent and positive publicity for the PM.

  155. Well shock and horror, Abbott knocked back working with the government on a regional refugee solution.

    The entire country was flabbergasted last night when Abbott did something completely different and out of character by refusing to work with the government on achieving a workable outcome on a policy.

    As an aside and in another shock for the Australian people, Howard completely out of character lied in an interview last night. He stated the Nauru solution was working perfectly well and was legally sound until Rudd changed it and stuffed it up. Problem for that porky is the main part of the legislation the HIgh Court ruled against was the part that remained unchanged from Howard’s legislation, which is why Gillard made the remark against one judge’s ruling. That judge had previously ruled for that part of the legislation yet this time ruled against it.

    Howard also forgot to mention that even under his old Nauru legislation unaccompanied children would not have been legally allowed to be detained offshore. I guess that must have slipped his mind as he is getting on in years. Howard would never ever deliberately try to fool the Australian public by leaving out facts like that.

  156. On a completely different front a ton of exellent economic news hit yesterday and last night and it was so good to see the MSM acknowledge this achievement by the government by apportioning this good news to everything but the government, who apparently did nothing and just stumbled into some good luck, or on the other hand according to Ltd News it was actually very bad economic news that sees Australians in dire finacial straits and most of the country in abject poverty or destitute.

    GDP: +1.6%
    Qtr Growth: 1.2%
    Productivity: 1.1% (this figure whilst big industry pushing for WC MkII was spruiking at a forum saying the government had destroyed productivity and only WC could restore it)
    Petrol cost as a percentage of household spending lowest in 6 years.
    Labour unit costs: -0.7% (again with big business saying Labour costs were too high and WC was needed)
    10,000 new jobs with unemployment expected to be steady.

    Just some of the good figures that came out with many more from the ABS if you look. All bodes well for the government to get back into surplus as planned, but of course they won’t be rewarded for this as the MSM turn any good news into bad and keep making up negative stories about the government.

  157. Well said Mobius. 🙂

    TONY ABBOTT is refusing to help the government revive the Malaysia plan despite being told by senior Immigration Department officials that a return to the Pacific solution will not stop the boats and that a ”game changer” like Malaysia was needed.

    The same officials warned separately yesterday that the proposal by the Labor Left to revert to onshore processing would result in more than 600 arrivals by boat a month, swamping domestic detention facilities in a year, and resulting in the cultural problems facing European cities with a high influx of immigrants.

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/abbott-rejects-plea-to-revive-malaysia-plan-20110907-1jxvk.html#ixzz1XIrWZTW0

    So therefore and ergo, as Tony has knocked back a regional solution to a regional problem if/when there is an increase in the number of boat people we will know whose fault it is. Tone..consider yourself well and truly outsmarted.

  158. On another front that is great news for Abbott and his barrackers, the NSW police after going through 120 pages of Health Union documents and a stack of other supposed evidence given by Brandis have stated there is insufficient evidence to charge Thomson and have handed the whole lot to the Victorian police who so far have not indicated they want to pursue the matter.

    No information on where Brandis got his supposed killer evidence against Thomson, which apparently included phone conversations.

    I guess Abbott’s mate Baillieu might be able to do what O’Farrell couldn’t, but then again O’Farrell has enough troubles of his own as he continues to break promises and garners a growing discontent against him.

  159. Mobius, precisely..’insufficent evidence’ calls it. The police will often proceed with a case if they believe that there is a remote chance of obtaining a conviction and/or that additional evidence might be forthcoming under cross-examination. In the Thomson case the police clearly believe that there is nothing to be gained.

  160. I do not agree with Mr. Sheridan often but on this occasion I have to make an exception.

    I do not agree with everything he says.

    Last night Mr. Howard was on Lateline. It was intersting that during the interview he kept saying Tony Abbott abd Julia Gillard, in that order. He could not bring himself to say PM. By the way he still has the ability to lie with a hurt and straight face.

    Last night Mr. Howard disclosed that the main reason he suceeded was the returning of the boats,which he admitted put our Navy personel at risk.

    We also know now that the Navy was not happy with the situation. I believe our Navy can be better employed, protecting our shores from real danger.

    No concern for the risk to the boat people.

    There has been an outcry by many including the Opposition that it is a shocking thing to send people to Malysia, where many came from.

    Why is it bad to send these people by plane, when according to Mr. Abbott and Mr.Howard to return them in their sinking boats is OK.

    Mr. Abbott realises that if he wants the power to reopen Nauru if he gains power, he will have to get the Act changed now.

    If he does not, he will not be able to do it for years, if he did gain power. I suggest it is Mr. Abbott who is wedged and he knows it.

    “……….The dissenting judgment by judge Dyson Heydon is not only far better written, it is compelling in its reasoning.

    Heydon distinguishes what should be decided by courts and what should be decided by politicians. He writes: “The only obligations on a minister in the law are those which are found in the act”, in this case the Migration Act.

    Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
    End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.
    As he argues, it is not contained in the Migration Act that a third country to which Australia might send asylum-seekers need have domestic and international legal obligations to meet some nebulous set of pure rights.

    Heydon further commented that a decision to send people to Malaysia “concerns dealings between Australia and friendly foreign states. Those dealings are within the province of the executive. Intrusion by the courts into those dealings may be very damaging to international comity and good relations. The minister is accountable to parliament for his conduct of those dealings. He may be questioned. He may be criticised. He may be condemned by parliamentary resolutions. He may have to resign. His conduct may lead to the passing of a motion of no confidence in the government of which he is a part, and thence to the fall of that government. As a practical matter he is also liable to condemnation before the court of public opinion. But, unless it can be shown that he has not formed an evaluative judgment, after asking the correct questions, that what he declared was true, he is not accountable to courts of law.”

    The High Court has damaged our democracy by its judgment because, in my view, it has reversed the intention of parliament.

    The amendments to the Migration Act were introduced in 2001 by the Howard government to enable the transfer of people to Nauru. At the time Nauru was, like Malaysia, not a signatory to the refugee convention. As Heydon writes: “The domestic law of Nauru did not contain any specific provisions or protections relating to persons who under international law would be classified as refugees or asylum-seekers.”

    Yet now, according to the Gillard government’s……”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/pm-was-right-high-court-went-too-far-and-damaged-democracy/story-e6frg6zo-1226131707353

  161. “600 arrivals by boat a month, swamping domestic detention facilities in a year, and resulting in the cultural problems facing European cities with a high influx of immigrants.”

    I do not agree there is any evidence that immigration caused the UK riots. The Opposite is true. All races where seen in the riots.

    It is more likely that the increasing gap between rich and poor is more to blame.

    We coped with greater numbers after the Vietnam war. Also the pope appear to be going all over the country, not to a couple of suburbs in Sydney and Melbourne.

    The radio jocks are still going on Mr. Thomson, helped by Sunrise Live.. Min the police did not say lack of evidence, they said no evidence or they failed to find evidence.

    Yes, ME, the economic figures makes fun of the stories that all are facing ruin. Me, any poor person in Public Housing might be after Mr. O’Farrell’s budget, putting rents up to pay more to private agencies to take over foster care.

    If they succeed in this action I will be surprised. These agencies will not take the difficult children, which in this case are the majority. If they do, they money they demand is beyond the pale. I am talking about hundred’s of thousands a year and that was fifteen years ago demands I am talking about.

  162. What is the difference in returning boats and sending them back by plane?

    The answer is that we do not have to use the Navy and it is a lot safer.

    “….It was now known that the vast majority of asylum seekers who were sent to those islands ended up in Australia or New Zealand and if the Pacific centres were reopened, they would be regarded as little more than processing centres, and be no more a deterrent than Christmas Island. The most effective measure the Howard government took was to ”tow back” about seven boats to the departure point of Indonesia. ”It had an intensely powerful effect,” and official said.

    Towing back boats was dangerous, the Indonesians would no longer allow it, and anyway, people smugglers had learnt to sabotage the boats to prevent being towed back, Mr Abbott was told.

    But Malaysia, which the officials called ”virtual tow-back”, would send the same strong message by sending people swiftly to the point of departure. ..”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/abbott-rejects-plea-to-revive-malaysia-plan-20110907-1jxvk.html#ixzz1XJKGR8h8

  163. 600 a month = 7,200 a year..and Australian can’t cope with this ‘influx’??

    Clearly if the concern is the creation of social problems then a lot more should be done to help with resettlement for example settling people in country towns and avoidance of ‘ghettos’.

    There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that boat people cause crime but rather it is the lack of a cohensive settlement policy and support system pertaining to all immigrants, especially those from non-English speaking countries.

  164. The comments of Mr. Metcalfe about the likelihood of riots have been filtered through a well known trout-mouth and I’d like to hear a more reliable messenger.

    Taliban analyst, Mr. Willam Maley suggested on Radio Natioanl a short time ago that if the comments are true, [paraphrasing} then the Immigration Dept. is being run by Pauline Hanson.

  165. No, Min. It’s not an influx, it’s a flood! A flood, I tell ‘ee!. We’ll be overrun. The country will sink under all that extra weight! All sorts of non-specific red neck stuff will happen.

    Quick, let’s waste throw allocate a few more billions to somewhere in the Pacific to keep these vast hordes at bay!

    I wish you’d try harder, Min. You’re failing hyperbole 101

    Ooh! I’ve just thought of a good way to protect our borders from these ne’er do wells.

    We could erect giant billboards around the coast with photos of Sophie Mirabella and Corey Bernardi saying “Infidels Go Home!” In reality there wouldn’t have to be any text, the sight of that pair would be enough to terrify anyone!

  166. I’m surprised the miners are not on Xmas island handing out 457 visa applications, 7200 workers per year is probably what they want. Gina, Clive, Twiggy here is a slogan Tow the Boats (straight to the mine wharves)

  167. Calls for Bernardi’s scalp over Wilders
    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/calls-for-bernardis-scalp-over-wilders-20110907-1jxhr.html

    Denounce radicals, Bernardi tells Muslim
    http://www.theage.com.au/national/denounce-radicals-bernardi-tells-muslim-20110907-1jxuf.html

    Abbott denies senator involved in Wilders visit
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-07/abbott-denies-bernardi- involved-in-wilders-visit/2875402/?site=melbourne

    Opposition treasury spokesman Joe Hockey has moved to further distance the Opposition from Mr Wilders.

    “This gentleman seems like a very unpleasant character, and I think it’s far better that we have nothing to do with him,” he said.

    Parliamentary secretary for immigration Kate Lundy says Mr Abbott must sanction Senator Bernardi.

    “He said previously that if Senator Bernardi continued to express intolerant and extreme views that he would sanction Senator Bernardi and sack him from his front-bench position,” Senator Lundy said.

    “Where is he now, now that this issue has been raised again?”

    Mr. Hockey is much more convincing than his Leader :-
    Tony Abbott says neither the Opposition, nor Senator Bernardi has any involvement with Mr Wilders’ plans.

    “Well that’s not the position… he’s not and the Coalition has nothing to do with the organisation of any trip,” Mr Abbott said

    That may be so, but Senator Bernardi has form as an anti-immigration advocate.
    Given his narrow views about our “Judeo-Christian” history, I wonder whether he actually knows anything at all about our history of the last 60,000 years !

  168. Now listen, Min. I’m heartily sick of your damned silly demands for evidence and proof. We don’t need that stuff, Our betters like Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones have all the proof we need about everything.

    This gives the lie to those who keep insisting that the Murdochracy and its running mates have little or no influence on political discourse and perceptions, I think.

    This is the sort of crap which constantly assaults our consciousness and which is constantly spewed out by the shock jocks and their dingbat noise makers. It’s a drumbeat hammering away in the background that we’re barely aware of. Brainwashing writ large.

    More evidence that a media enquiry is desperately needed in this country, imo.

    The outright lies and distortions promulgated by shock jocks and Murdoch’s media are deeply embedded in our perceptions and unconsciously absorbed so that even people with very well developed bullshit meters (I’m looking at you, reb), either overlook, discount or don’t register their malevolent influence.

  169. Jane, that makes far too much sense..if you’re not careful girl I will herewith banish you to do penance on a Bolt blog, for a good 2 minutes anyway.

    El gordo, irrespective of any belief in climate change..it’s good for the planet if we turn to cleaner energies. That is the way of the future as dirty alternatives do have a use-by date PLUS the Chinese aren’t now the world leaders in research into alternative energies for no reason at all. Common sense IMO. And will the dirty polluters turn to cleaner alternatives without having to pay a penalty in some way, no of course not and one would have to be naive to think that they ever would.

  170. ,

    Jane, that makes far too much sense..if you’re not careful girl I will herewith banish you to do penance on a Bolt blog, for a good 2 minutes anyway.

    Nooooooooooo!

    I think el gordo is a lost climate change cause, Min. I’m surprised his avatar isn’t an ostrich.

  171. News

    Unemployment has risen to 5.3%

    I will imagine we will hear about this all day.

    Yesterdays good news is being ignored.

  172. Message from Andrew Bartlett, he’s going to be on Sky News about 1.30pm speaking about Thomson, asylum seekers and the economy.

  173. Recent race riots in England.

    Race riots in England, I must have missed those.

    Oh, when you have a multi race crowd running wild, that is a race riot.

    Running wild together, not against one another. I am finding it hard too believe that was said yesterday.

    What might have been said that there will be more boats that will put pressure on the infrastructure in place to deal with asylum seekers.

    There will be over crowded facilities that will be more difficult to manage.

    Race riots, no, no, no.

  174. I have just been at TPS where ToM’s latest extraordinary claim is that because Thomson said someone must have fraudulently used the card and the police found no evidence that this happened, Thomson must have lied, because there’s no evidence it happened, Thomson must have lied because…………

    Go figure.

    OTOH, Mal Brough who has got form for till fiddling is strangely absent from ToM’s hit list, despite the fact that the Liars Party has endorsed him for Slipper’s seat.

    ToM as always fair and unbiased as he spreads lies and innuendo against the innocent and let’s the guilty go scot free. ToM, moral equivalence is your middle name.

  175. Rasa, t’other way around..if Abbott refuses to negotiate or even consider any other options other than Nauru, then it’s he who is going to be suffering the wedgie. Is this your topic? Or is it another one?

  176. Mind enlightening us on that Rasa although Min seems to have pulled the rug out from under your feet. Can I ask, do you spend a lot of time praying to the Saint of Lost Causes? ToM spends a lot of time doing that; maybe you’ve met and compared flawed notes.

  177. What annoys me is that the PM has said that since last Wednesday’s judgement, they are reviewing what they are doing and everything is on the table.

    Mr. Abbott keeps making statements with a surprise look on his face, that they have no policy.

    If he took time to listen to the PM, he would know that was not news.

    The PM has said they are forming new policy.

    Mr, Abbott when circumstances change, new policies are needed.

    I heard Mr. Murdock say that it might not work again. Listen to your own party.

  178. Jane,
    That’s the way that I see it too. It seems that Gillard is beginning to understand the way that Abbott’s mind works, that he even when he says that he’ll negotiate he puts so many obstacles in the way that he makes it impoosible to do so.

  179. Mr abbott got his pair for the rally, but that is far more important than craig’s wife

    “Yes, you read that right. Attending the birth of your child, supporting your spouse in labour – that’s not enough reason to miss a vote in Parliament.

    Remember, this is the man who asked for and received a pair merely in order to attend a violent, hate-filled rally in order to make a speech and get his photo taken in front of signs recommending Gillard burn in hell. It’s arguably ‘extraordinary’ – but more important than being there for the birth of your child?

    Abbott prides himself on being a family man.”
    http://consciencevote.wordpress.com/2011/09/08/a-sleazy-new-low-for-abbott/

  180. Min. on September 8, 2011 at 4:27 pm
    Abbott is running Border Protection policy from opposition is what I’m saying.
    Gillard’s “Border Policy” remains in limbo until Abbott decides.
    It is quite bizarre. If Labor ever had control it is now clear Labor policy comes from either the greens or Abbott.
    Gillard is wedged. She has to change the laws to enshrine offshore processing. To save face she needs Malaysis in the mix. To humiliate Labor and Gillard Abbott is taking his time before advising if Malasia will get a guernsey.
    I see there is starting to be love in the room between Rudd and his Faceless men.
    Also Min. Who would have thought Craig would have had an AMEX paid for by a supplier to HSU? hmmmmm. Secret Comissions and Jail Time for Craig?….. not that Abbott will need that seat when there are so many in the 9%swing range.
    Anyhooo World Cup/NRL/AFL is on so should be a fat time for politics and sport over the next feww weeks. How long do you think these drongos will last Min?

  181. Rasa, actually not. According to the recent High Court ruling Nauru is deemed equally inappropriate. And then we have the ruling on Unaccompanied Minors. The High Court ruled that as the Minister is these children’s legal guardian that he/she cannot do anything which may be considered to be to these children’s detriment.

    We therefore have 2 consequences: that unaccompanied children cannot be deported to Malaysia or Naurua nor anywhere else where it might be to ‘their detriment’. And the 2nd consequence is that Abbott would not legally be able to “turn back the boats” when unaccompanied minors might be on board. As ascertaining whether any children on board are unaccompanied or otherwise means having time to ascertain these children’s identities – their age and whether or not they are unaccompanied. Abbott clearly cannot just “turn back the boats” under these circumstances.

  182. Hang on Rasa how does Gillard’s border protection remain in limbo until Abbott decides?

    So far in 188 policies and I believe another one yesterday, he has not decided on or had input into a single one. That I believe has never happened with any opposition, even ones against majority governments.

    And your contention has been blown out the water as the Gillard government is announcing a new immigration policy on Monday, one with absolutely no input from Abbott or his dysfunctional opposition. It maybe a failure and untenable but the fact is that Abbott had no say in it and it shows the government doesn’t need Abbott to frame policies so he cannot wedge them.

    There has never been a more lame duck opposition than the one we currently have in this country, and that they are so totally ineffective in shaping policy in this country with a minority government in power is all the more damning for them.

  183. Mobius re “lame duck opposition” – precisely said. Plus I am certain that there more than a number on Abbott’s own team who are philosophically opposed to Abbott’s idea that the job of the Opposition is to oppose. The job is to put forward amendments to achieve the best results for the country – hence I believe Joe Hockey’s demonstrable frustration. Hockey clearly came forward the other day contradicting Abbott because Hockey knew that pairing under the circumstances was the right thing to do.

  184. Min. Not quite correct. The High Court interprets the laws enacted by Parliament. The High Court of course doesn’t make laws. Google “Separation of Powers”
    Nauru, properly set up with schooling, health and accomodation facilities combined with UNHCR accreditation and legislation passed by Gillard and Abbott, will pass High Court scrutiny. Not sure about Malaysis. We can’t control Malaysia like we can control the behaviour of the Nauru government. (Read … they need our offshore processing industry)
    The guts of it Min, is that firstly we assume voters want the Australia’s borders controlled. I think judging by past elections and polls this is a given except for green voters and those in mental institutions.
    Secondly the border Policy has to have a deterrant factor. Nauru is 34 Nautical Miles from being in the northern hemisphere (Lat 00°31’31″S Long 166°56’54″E). It is half way back to Afganistan……… not exactly what the queue jumpers paid for.
    Thirdly a TPV ensures they will never get to Australia unless they are found to be refugees and then will join the refugee queue and end up in a random country, maybe Australia …….again not what they paid for.
    Now I know Labor rabbit on about Nauru not working. The facts are the boats stopped. It ended up costing about $400,000 per person per year for the two remaining on Nauru. Expensive yes but compared to the $1,000,000,000 Gillard has torn up in the past year, it is relatively cheap.
    Min don’t get locked into your dogma. Think laterally and enjoy the strategy. You might be an Arts sort of person so you may not get the logic but trust me it is all about strategy and cause and effect and politics and about people who would rather live in Australia than downtown Afganistan.

  185. It goes even further into just how really useless and bereft this opposition is, the real drongos as Rasa likes to name call, in that they cannot mount any real opposition and must solely rely on a right wing media whose stated aim is to get rid of the government plus the aid of big business and the wealthiest in this country.

    If this opposition had to stand on their own merit and oppose using their resources and perspicaciousness they would fall in heap almost immediately. This can be seen every time they are genuinely challenged or asked to produce lucid policy.

    The real thing of it all is that even if through the aid of the MSM and wealthy business owners Abbott gets over the line in two years the Labor government would have implemented hundreds of policies and many major reforms, and in doing so will have achieved more than the previous Liberal government did in a decade. Abbott will be gone within a short time after the election as he will not be able to keep one of his promises, the boats will keep coming under his immigration policy and he will brain fart and freeze up once too often. But what he will have done is badly damage the once good Liberal brand for a long time to come.

  186. Enough about how nasty Mr Abbott has been this week let us have an essay about anything that has rated Abbott in a “positive”.

    Well here is my essay nasty, nasty, nasty times 24,000.

  187. TPVs are now illegal and never worked anyway. There’s a bunch of stats around showing this.

    Nauru has said that the asylum seekers are not a priority for them and the infrastructure that used to house them is now either completely run down or has been given over to Nauru public infrastructure like schools. So are you saying that Nauru should kick their kids out of schools so as to detain refugees. What this means is that the whole Nauru detention system would have to be rebuild, but now to a much higher standard and with more scrutiny that Howard got away with, where no scrutiny was allowed.

    Also there will have to be legal representation on Nauru for the refugees, which also didn’t occur previously. This will greatly add to the costs as will the monitors required. Unaccompanied minors will not be allowed unless Abbott provides guardians, again more cost.

    Nauru was failing under Howard anyway because one of its original factors given as a success, that is of a deterrent, was breaking down. Once refugees in squalid camps in Indonesia and Malaysia realised that if you got to Nauru not only were you kept in better conditions you have a 90% or greater chance of getting to Australia anyway. Towards the end of Howard’s term the boats were increasing and they were lined up ready to come.

    Can you please source this 1 billion Gillard tore up? New one on me.

    Oh and let’s not forget that the opposition so far have a $70 billion whole in their budget.

  188. TPVs are now illegal and never worked anyway. There’s a bunch of stats around showing this.

    Nauru has said that the asylum seekers are not a priority for them and the infrastructure that used to house them is now either completely run down or has been given over to Nauru public infrastructure like schools. So are you saying that Nauru should kick their kids out of schools so as to detain refugees. What this means is that the whole Nauru detention system would have to be rebuild, but now to a much higher standard and with more scrutiny that Howard got away with, where no scrutiny was allowed.

    Also there will have to be legal representation on Nauru for the refugees, which also didn’t occur previously. This will greatly add to the costs as will the monitors required. Unaccompanied minors will not be allowed unless Abbott provides guardians, again more cost.

    Nauru was failing under Howard anyway because one of its original factors given as a success, that is of a deterrent, was breaking down. Once refugees in squalid camps in Indonesia and Malaysia realised that if you got to Nauru not only were you kept in better conditions you have a 90% or greater chance of getting to Australia anyway. Towards the end of Howard’s term the boats were increasing and they were lined up ready to come.

    Can you please source this 1 billion Gillard tore up? New one on me.

    Oh and let’s not forget that the opposition so far have a $70 billion hole in their budget.

  189. Rasa, I’ve read the ruling and also received personal advice on a couple of queries from Prof. Frank Brennan. According to Frank and the Solicitor General Nauru would not and could not meet the high standard accorded to ‘minors’. To explain, the treatment of minors is based on Contract Law. A legal guardian cannot enter into any ‘contract’ which is to a minor’s detriment. And as stated the Minister is the legal guardian of these children.

    For example, there is a university in Nauru however it runs only accounting, management, Bachelor af Education (Primary), early childhood education, English and library and informational studies. It does not and cannot meet the educational standard available in Australia and therefore deporting a child to Nauru is to the child’s detriment.

  190. Yes Min and it goes further than that. The Minister cannot blanket stamp approval for minors to be sent wherever the Minister wants to send them. The Minister must provide written reasons taking in the circumstances for each individual unaccompanied child as to why they can be sent to where the Minister wants them to go.

    That written reasoning must be scrutinised and approved for each individual unaccompanied child.

    So what will be the outcome of both the current Gillard situation and Abbott’s proposed immigration policy, boatload after boatload of unaccompanied children.

    Is Abbott going to send them back (illegally)?

  191. Mobius, and hence of course why Tony Abbott’s simplistic statement that he will “turn back the boats” is a whole heap of codswallop..oh no you don’t, not if there is any suspicion that there might be unaccompanied minors onboard.

  192. “….and about people who would rather live in Australia than downtown Afganistan.”

    I’ve heard this racist crap so many times over my lifetime yet it never stops and is always the same crap.

    Just some I’ve grown up with:

    “downtown Italy/Greece (wogville)”
    “downtown Germany/Holland”
    “downtown China/Vietnam (slopeland)”

    Now it’s Arabs and the next ethnic group that will receive this same meme will be the Africans.

  193. Min. on September 10, 2011 at 8:32 am
    Ah I think we are continuing minore education on Nauru…. Trertiary education is a bit of a stretch. Ask Julia to include a University on Nauru though… it is a clean sheet as long as it includes the N word.
    Möbius Ecko on September 10, 2011 at 8:45 am
    Wasn’t a racist comment Mobius. Just making the point there are probably quite a few billion people who would prefer to live in Australia. Just like you and I. We fell backwards into the butter so to speak. Pretty much everyone in Australia is an immigrant or decendant of one. Don’t feel too special Mobius.
    Would love to be a fly on the wall at the early AM meeting with Caucas to write a Border Protection Policy. Hope Gillard has been cramming over the wekend.
    I wonder what “Abbott Border Protection” looks like when Gillard presents it to parliament this week.
    Have been offshore sailing all this weekend. What a blast. It will be a fun week of politics.

  194. According to a sound bite I heard Abbott says he won’t as Malaysia is a proven failure whilst Nauru is a proven success.

    Problem for Abbott is that if he knocks back any other offshore processing apart from Nauru he’s scuttling himself. Though shooting himself in the foot is a regular occurrence with Abbott and you have to wonder how many times Hockey and co can keep bailing him out and the media can remain mum on his constant brain farts.

  195. Poh. I think both sides should work together to get a solid offshore processing regime that is in harmony with the thinking of the High Court.
    Lets hope Julia and Tony work together on this one at least.

  196. Mobius, I cannot think of one single reason. But the sad fact of the matter is that the government has explained the Malaysia plan so poorly that even the rusted-ons are struggling to justify it.

    All that I can fathom is that X number of asylum seekers come in via Malaysia where they are processed by the UN. Some have been awaiting settlement for years. The boat people are not processed, therefore in the swap deal Australia said that the unprocessed people should form a queue behind those already processed in Malaysia.

    This therefore becomes a deterrent to the people smugglers if their people 1. will not make it to Australian territory 2. have to wait their turn behind the people who have already been processed.

  197. I still cannot understand why all these people are so het up about the miniscule number of boat arrivals. Sod offshore processing, It’s cruel, stupid and expensive. I wish the government would just give Liealot the finger and go ahead with onshore processing.

    QandA disgusting tonight. Barnyard and some Ltd News hack telling the same old lies and nobody on the panel to yank their chains. Barnyard had a spiteful crack at Craig Thomson and not one person to remind the lying toe rag that unlike M J Fisher, Mr Thomson’s “crime” is all in his thick head.

  198. Rasa! How can you say that Gillard is wedged?! Rather, she has wedged Abbott. He will only be able to reject her new legislation to ensure off-shore processing to Malaysia if he wants rule out his own preferred option of Nauru. Her legislation is planned to be sufficiently broad to enable the elected government of the day, of whatever political persuasion, to make whatever arrangements for off-shore processing it sees fit.

    The PM knows how to make law. It’s her specialty. Her attitude in Q.T. today was challenging. He’s not been given any choices. She’s called him. Now he has to put up. Or shut up.

    The Greens aren’t relevant here.

  199. Jane, I didn’t watch Q + A but the ltd news person was either Joe Hildebrand, [youngish, described as a writer], who also appears on The Drum, or Paul Barry [not so young], who has just started his online The Power Index.

    As for the other, there are some loathsome creatures who should have been drowned at birth …you whistle and I’ll point.

  200. I watched it, Pip. It was horrible. Even Germaine laid into the PM over asylum seekers. Hildebrand was horrible, started in on the BER waste again. Paul Barry was about the best of the lot on the political scene, especially the Australian and Murdoch. But even he didn’t really support the govt. It was like group gripe about Gillard, egged on by Tony Jones, of course. But no real support from the audience either. One tweet which appeared did ask “What has Julia Gillard done to deserve this kind of hate?”

    Astonishing that a come back for Kevin Rudd is seriously debated. And Barnaby Joyce was the only one who talked sense about that! i.e. not a chance in hell. Pointed out that Rudd was universally disliked by his party before his fall. BJ was odd tonight, very restrained, very naive about pornography – which I found almost endearing. But then he got onto the carbon tax and climate change and I hated him all over again.

    At the end some good discussion from both women on violent pornography and how it was too widespread and available so that kids were growing up with sadistic atttiudes towards women and their sexuality. Audience seemed to agree. Odd that. Remember how Stephen Conroy wanted to regulate that on the internet and got a bollocking the polls and the media for it?

  201. patricia,
    Abbott is feeling very smug because he managed to get a free ride to Nauru compliments of trucking magnate, Lindsay Fox, in order to organise the signing of the UN Convention on the Status of Refugees. Several years too late !

    Trucking baron to the rescue
    Phillip Coorey
    June 13, 2011

    Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/national/trucking-baron-to-the-rescue-20110613-1g0jz.html#ixzz1Xky9lRkd

    Mr Fox is the generous Liberal Party donor who provided the plane that enabled Mr Abbott, his immigration spokesman, Scott Morrison, and a media entourage to visit Nauru at the long weekend.

    Nauru signs UN refugee convention
    Kirsty Needham
    June 18, 2011

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/nauru-signs-un-refugee-convention-20110617-1g830.html

    Mr Abbott last Saturday toured Nauru to argue a processing centre located there would be a ”more humane” option for boat arrivals. The Nauru government released a statement yesterday saying Mr Stephen has signed the instruments of accession to the 1951 Refugee Convention and its 1967 Protocol.

    ”We will then deposit the documents with the Secretary-General of the United Nations and 90 days after he receives them, we will become a party to the Convention and its Protocols,” Nauru
    Secretary for Justice David Lambourne said.

    ***Then there is the reminder of how former Foreign Minister
    Downer arrived at the decision to use Nauru as a detention centre.

    Tiny Nauru back on the Coalition map
    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/tiny-nauru-back-on-the-coalition-map-20110608-1fsze.html

    Downer was the deal-maker with Nauru in 2001 and it is worth revisiting his account of how he ”fixed” Howard’s problem of where to send asylum seekers from the Tampa. In the 2008 ABC documentary The Howard Years, he said:

    ”John Howard said to me, ‘Well, go and find someone who’ll take them.’ So I went back up to my office and got my staff together there and said, ‘Well now, we are literally going to have to think up a country to send these people to that’ll take them.’
    One of my staff, she said, ‘Well, look, you had that call from Rene Harris, the President of Nauru, a week or so ago pleading for $200,000 or $300,000 so he could pay for some oil, so what about ringing him?’ That was a good idea, I thought. So I rang Rene Harris and he said, ‘Yeah, that would be fine.”’

    The question which no journalist has asked Mr. Abbott is:-

    “Mr. Abbott, Mr. Downer gave Nauru $300,000 which they needed to pay for oil. What did you offer Nauru in order to get a favourable response?”

  202. jane, I have to disagree with you on this one, sadly. However miniscule the number there is a real problem amongst Australians about people arriving here by boat. I’m sure it’s been written about and researched but both main stream parties know this from way back. It’s not just city dwellers, it’s country folk too. Has something to do with our being one vast island continent, and with our coastal areas being largely uninhabited.

    Whatever the reasons for that, I think Metcalfe is right and that our wonderfully tolerant attitude towards immigrants, even regularly processed refugees, will change if there are too many unauthorised boat arrivals and people feel, however unjustifiably, that we are being invaded and our borders aren’t protected. I also think there is much misunderstanding and misreporting about exactly what it is that Julia Gillard is trying to do. So what is she trying to do?

    In planning to continue with the Malaysian arrangement she is trying to progress towards a regional understanding on both asylum seekers and control of unauthorised vessels. Chris Bowen with immigration and consular officials had done a huge amount of work on this. So it was well advanced before the High Court ruling and had been carefully negotiated with Malaysia and in consultation with the UNHCR who felt that the deal was workable from their perspective, according to Erika Feller, UNHCR Assistant High Commissioner, speaking to Julia Baird on ABC radio yesterday. If you read the transcript to that interview you’ll find that she is very clear that UNHCR are not against off-shore processing. Here it is

    ….we have never condemned the concept of offshore processing in its entirety, but we have said that it has to be fully embedded in a regional cooperation framework…….

    PS Thanks to whoever it was here at CW who gave me that link this morning. It really made me feel a whole lot better about the PM’s persistence with this. I had responded to Reb and yourself jane, on another thread at some length about why I supported the government on the Malaysian solution even before I read that transcript. I can now see why the UNHCR had liked ‘the deal.’

    Most people don’t understand that in Malaysia there is no detention of refugees. While on Nauru there is. What all refugees need in SE Asia generally is better legal status which will protect them. A regional solution to refugees such as the Malaysian initiative starts will help improve their status generally at the same times as increasing our own intake in some sort of orderly process. There will at least be a sort of queue and fewer tragedies like the SIEVX and the one we saw at Christmas Island just a few months ago.

  203. Patricia, ‘group gripe’ is the perfect description of the behaviour of the media.
    The BER report by Brad Orgill should be required reading for these morons.
    “Read it before you say or write another word” would be the order from an editor with integrity…….

    I’ve seen Joe Hildebrand on The Drum….irritatingly self confident !
    Interestingly, the Q+A website describes him as a writer; in fact he’s with the Daily Smellagraph……

    Paul Barry
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Barry

    Barnaby might have been hoping no-one would ask him about Joe Hockey’s silly speech about Treasury earlier in the day !

    Short memories with the ‘censorship’ argument, I agree. 🙂

  204. You must live in the West too, Pip! Perhaps you are an insomniac! This is late, even for me.

    Or are you an early bird? Good night/morning!

  205. At least you all now accept offshore process is the logical and pragmatic solution. Are you going to listen to me next time?
    As I said weeks ago. Abbott will decide our national Border Policy …… from opposition.
    Gillard was wedged long ago. Personally I would let Gillard do the Malaysia deal. it will be death by a thousand cuts (sorry 4,000 cuts)

  206. Great wedge by Gillard on border protection and Abbott is left at sea over his non-border policy that is a proven failure.

    Only a rusted on wingnut would see this any other way. Abbott doesn’t have a border policy, it is a half baked version of the Howard policy that was already failing when he left office. Nauru offers nothing but huge expense for no gain. It will not stop the boats and Abbott’s promise of turning back the boats is laughable and more so for he is serious.

    As some reports are showing Abbott won’t be around for long and will either be booted before the election or shorly after even if he were to win. So I guess it’s a death by slow boiling in oil for him.

  207. Rasa, if you read back I think that you will find that a number of us here at the Café were willing to see what the details of the Malaysia plan were before forming an opinion.

    As far as “you all”..we all are individuals and each person here is entitled to their own opinion.

    Sad for you Abbott is equally as ‘wedged’ and for 2 reasons:

    1. The High Court decision refers equally to Nauru.
    2. The High Court ruling states that the Minister as the legal guardian of any minors is unable to do anything to their detriment – therefore making Abbott’s blah about turning the boats back illegal.

    Disclaimer: Son is coming up to 10 years in the Navy, is a Leading Seaman and is on the patrol boats. The sheer logistics in turning back the boats would be horrific.

  208. Tony Abbott must be in more trouble than the media is reporting. Lenore Taylor is reporting on “talking points on the carbon tax” or lies that were not for distribution:
    “The speaking notes, labelled ”Coalition in confidence – not for distribution in this form”

    Now the the “talking points” are full of lies and LT points out each of the lies with the actual facts

    THE Coalition has distributed 34 pages of climate change ”talking points” to help its federal MPs step up their anti-tax campaign, including several assertions that are untrue or misleading, as debate begins on the controversial carbon pricing bills today.

    …assert the government’s plan would mean ”$3.5 billion a year in taxpayer dollars is going to pay potentially dodgy and corrupt foreign companies to do things like plant trees in other countries
    …..when in fact Labor proposes to allow polluting businesses to buy some carbon permits offshore, but does not propose any taxpayer-funded overseas carbon permit purchases.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/coalition-distorts-facts-in-campaign-on-pollution-charge-20110912-1k639.html#ixzz1Xm4RmEOb

    Now that Lenore has pointed out the lies it will be up to journalists to challenge the MPs at every door stop and every press conference. Unless there is another agenda and the press is more interested in promoting the coalition lies.

    The other question for the media is who is it that is undermining Tony Abbott the Climate Deniers and Anti Carbon Tax members of the coalition. Who is it who wants the Carbon Tax passed and the Liberal leadership?

  209. Another story from the SMH that will challenge Abbott’s talking points is that NSW’s Barry O’Farrell has not disclosed the real impact of the Carbon Tax on transport.

    “UNRELEASED modelling from the NSW Treasury shows the impact of the carbon tax on public transport fares would be less than 0.3 per cent”

    Whereas Barry has been claiming
    “On July 15 the Premier, Barry O’Farrell, said in a media release the carbon tax would increase fares by up to 3.6 per cent and warned it could deter the public”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/carbon-tax-figures-on-transport-gather-dust-20110912-1k637.html#ixzz1Xm97TQoN

    Go for it journalists challenge Abbott and the Liberal Premiers and the lies.

  210. Don’t know how that happened Tom. O’Farrell still hasn’t released his bogus modelling that supposedly showed NSW was $2 billion more in debt than the previous Labor government had stated we were.

    One of O’Farrell’s tricks was to count $1 billion as being hidden that had been modelled by NSW Treasury and given to Standard and Poors, who had it documented well before the election so it was in the public domain. As to his other mysterious billion, he’s never explained it and it’s now disappeared out of his attacks on Labor.

  211. Speaking of budget billions, I heard from the debate last night on the radio that the libs are possibly going to block the Parliamentary Budget Office proposal that all sides signed up to before last years election (or was it in the aftermath?)

    Apparently, they want it all kept secret. I wonder why 😉

  212. Will someone please ask Mr. O’Farrell why people would leave public transport, if as he and Mr. Abbott says, cars and everything else is going up as well.

  213. Yes Tom that has been raised here in several submissions. Hockey and Robb want the policy of budget honesty Howard bought in done away with but from my understanding it’s more than that, they want the requirement to submit any costings to be done away with. In other words what they are asking for is to have carte blanche to make any budgetary claim they like without scrutiny being applied to it. $70 billion, 100, hell a 1000 billion hole, and nobody outside the party would know.

    This is asking for an open licence to lie, and this from a party where it has been recently discovered their core policy is to lie on everything. Yet this bunch of dishonest crooks have the hide to label others liars and criminals.

  214. Yes Tom that has been raised here in several submission

    I know, I’m guilty of skipping many posts 😦 sorry

    Interesting how they, now in opposition, want to do away with the charter, but it was fine when they were in Government

    hipocrits spring to mind

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