Carbon – Legislation Facts – Coalition calls it “junk mail”

Press Conference: Greg Combet announces Clean Energy Future Legislative Package

By Climate Change Action Team On July 28, 2011

The Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer, Wayne Swan, and the Minister for Climate Change and Energy Efficiency, Greg Combet, today released exposure drafts of the key bills in the Government’s Clean Energy Legislative Package.

The Prime Minister announced the Government’s plan to tackle climate change for a clean energy future earlier this month.

The plan will introduce a carbon price to reduce Australia’s carbon pollution and drive investment in renewable energy while ensuring households are assisted and jobs are supported.

“The release of the Clean Energy Legislative Package is the next step forward in this major economic and environmental reform,” Mr Swan said.

“The Government is now releasing exposure drafts of the legislation and will seek comments from the public, stakeholders and legal experts.”

Mr Combet said the Gillard Government was getting on with the job of legislating to tackle climate change by putting a price tag on every tonne of pollution produced by around 500 large polluters from 1 July 2012.

“This legislative package will give businesses and investors certainty about the carbon price, allowing them to plan new investments including in the renewable and clean energy technologies of the future,” Mr Combet said.

The Clean Energy Legislative Package includes four main bills – the Clean Energy Bill 2011 (which sets up the carbon price mechanism); the Clean Energy Regulator Bill 2011 (which establishes a regulatory body to administer the mechanism); the Climate Change Authority Bill 2011 (which establishes a new Authority to advise the government on the future design of the carbon price mechanism) and the Clean Energy (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2011.

In addition there are several bills dealing with other consequential and procedural matters and bills dealing with fuel tax arrangements.

The legislative package also includes provisions for the Government’s Jobs and Competiveness Program, which will assist for emissions-intensive and trade-exposed industries, and for the Energy Security Fund which will assist electricity generators to ensure energy security.

An additional bill which incorporates the Government’s household assistance measures announced is currently being drafted.

This legislation will be part of the whole package that will be introduced into Parliament later this year and will deliver the Government’s commitments to households in full.

The Government will provide tax cuts, increases in family payments and higher pensions and other benefits to assist households with the modest cost impacts of a carbon price.

Submissions on the Clean Energy Legislative Package can be sent to the Department of Climate Change and Energy Efficiency until 5pm on Monday, 22 August 2011.

The draft bills and a fact sheet are available at

Submissions or questions about the draft bills can be emailed to

The Government will consider submissions on the drafting of the bills before they are introduced into the Parliament.


The Gillard Government has released draft legisilation for community consultation regarding securing a Clean Energy Future.

What is in the legislative package?

Labor’s plan will cut carbon pollution and drive investment in clean energy technologies and infrastructure like solar, gas and wind. Importantly the package;

  • Implements a price on pollution for around 500 of Australia’s biggest polluters.The package sets out how the price on pollution will be run, and what businesses will have to do. The price on pollution will make energy produced from polluting fuels cost more than energy produced by clean technology, so companies will have an incentive to invest in cleaner energy.
  • Supports jobs by providing for assistance to emissions intensive and trade exposed industries through the Jobs and Competitiveness Program.
  • Gives land holders access to new income opportunities by linking the carbon price to the Carbon Farming Initiative and to credible schemes overseas;

Labor will also give assistance to Australian households that need it most, like pensioners and low and middle income earners – 9/10 families will receive assistance through tax cuts and/or payment increases.

What happens now?

Later this year the bill incorporating these household assistance measures will be introduced into Parliament later this year.

Between July 28 & August 22 the Clean Energy Legislative Package is available for public consultation before the legislation is considered by the Parliament. You can learn more about the consultation here.

For all the key milestones in the next 12 months about securing a Clean Energy Future in law download this factsheet. The Fact sheet also outlines each bill that will be considered in parliament and what the bill will cover.


A carbon price will have a modest impact on prices.  But to make sure families can deal with any changes, the Labor Government will provide generous household assistance.

  • 9 in 10 households will receive assistance through tax cuts and/or payment increases.
  • Almost 6 million households will get tax cuts or increases in payments that cover the entire average price impact.
  • Over 4 million Australian households will get an extra buffer with assistance that covers 120% of the average price impact of the carbon price.
  • Over 1 million Australians will no longer need to lodge a tax return.
  • On average, it will cost households $9.90 per week but they get $10.10 per week in assistance This assistance is permanent and will increase.
  • The Government will review the adequacy of assistance each year and will increase it further if necessary.

Australian families have seen electricity price rises, due to underinvestment in network infrastructure by state and territory governments.  This infrastructure includes  850,000 kilometres of poles and wires  which deliver electricity to Australian homes, businesses, hospitals and schools.

This underinvestment has already caused electricity prices to rise, putting pressure on the family budget. Unless this underinvestment is tackled, prices will continue to rise. Tony Abbott and the Liberals don’t want families and households to know the truth about why electricity prices are rising.

A price on carbon will have an impact on electricity prices, but the government has committed to giving households assistance to deal with price rises.

Every cent raised by the carbon price will go to assisting households with price impacts, supporting jobs in the most affected industries and investing in climate change and clean energy programs.

Assistance will be generous, but importantly, it will also be fair.  Assistance will be targeted towards the people who need it most.

Consultation open: Legislative package

The draft bills and accompanying fact sheet are available at the Department of Climate Change and Energy Efficiency website.

185 comments on “Carbon – Legislation Facts – Coalition calls it “junk mail”

  1. Some climate grumblings from me but first, please break up the article with n ….more over.

    The media have picked up on this and it directly effects me but more so some of my friends in the area who are volunteer fire fighters. It was one of them who pointed me to this report. Climate change impact statement for the Illawarra and NSW south coast. (pdf)

    Strange they are not predicting increased snowfall events, more cold days and sea level drops when the globe is supposed to be cooling in the coming decades.

    If the globe is cooling and warming has stopped how come the Arctic sea ice extent continues to decline with the second biggest decline ever recorded just taking place? Data of Sea Ice Extent

    One of my bug bears in the renewable energy debates has been that the nay sayers and economic doom merchants never take into account the progressive technological leaps forward in renewables and supporting systems. One of these has been the great progress in battery technologies, like this new technology for instance: Aluminum-Celmet material could boost the range of electric vehicles by 200 percent

    A Climate Change update, Climate change update by the numbers, but this graph shows Australia shame. I bring attention to it because one of the coal industries ads goes on about Canada not having a carbon price/tax, which is not completely true because British Columbia does, but as can be seen from the graph Canada does far better than us in other power generation methods, whereas Australia has put itself in the position that it almost solely relies on coal. Stupid, stupid, stupid on several fronts.

    Does this remind you of others who do the same thing? It’s Hot! But Fox Only Talks About Global Warming When It’s Snowing

  2. Mobius re It’s Hot! But Fox Only Talks About Global Warming When It’s Snowing.

    This reminded me of an impression that I got as to one reason why support for addressing climate change has dwindled to such an extent since last year..given that it was said the Rudd would lose the election due to his backpedal, so it was VIP then: Basically people could see the effects of climate change with their own eyes aka the prolonged drought. Once this was no longer ‘news’, support decreased markedly.

  3. If we believe anecdotal evidence, this is when Labor began to go backwards.

    I believe that it was Labor’s confused message about a addressing climate change that led to many deserting Labor during the election.

    I do know it was a sore point with me.

    Also, I believe that DD was probably not the right answer, but Labor did not have to say it was dropping legislation, giving the impression that it was dropping it for good.

    I believe Labor was responsible for allowing the waters to be muddied.

    Labor must be open with the public. It must ignore he noisy, what I believe minority and do what they consider to be the right thing to do.

    In this political and media climate, Labor is dammed for what they do and for what they do not do.

    Sticking to their guns is the only option they have.

  4. ‘Sticking to their guns is the only option they have.’

    Luckily for us, that is also the best option the climate can expect at the moment 😉

  5. Thanks for that, report, Pip. It’s the kind of backgrounding we don’t get from newspapers any more. Handy to have the bare bones of it all there.

    Tom,R – I was thinking about clearn energy jobs when Abbott was raving on at the miners, about how the mines would close and the world would end. I wondered how many of those big men standing around watching him, arms folded, silent, faces unreadable were not at all unhappy to hear that news. I wondered how many of them were thinking what a bloody good thing it was they wouldn’t have to go down to dig any more and how great it would be that their kids wouldn’t have to do the dirty work of the nation.

  6. Patricia, plus according to Skills Australia..

    The mining industry employs approximately 178,500 people, which accounts for around two per cent of the total Australian workforce.

    That is, a very small portion of the Australian workforce are employed by the industry.

  7. That’s the total for the mining industry Min. What is the number for just coal, which is more relevant?

    In NSW it’s around 13,000 and to put that in perspective in 1908 it was over 17,000.

    So will the coal industry guarantee that not a single job will ever be lost if there is no carbon tax and they will continue to employ the same people when a mine runs out? Why have they laid off over 4000 workers in NSW since 1908 when there has been no carbon tax?

  8. Mobius, exactly..I think that people get confused between the FIFO construction industry and the miners per se.

    My thoughts too, Abbott stomped around demanding that no jobs be lost due to the carbon tax, but where is the industry guarantee that no jobs would be lost for other reasons.

  9. And a quotable quote from the above link:

    “I mean this is a draconian new police force chasing an invisible, odourless, weightless, tasteless substance,” Mr Abbott told Nine’s Today Show.

  10. Power to the people

    An informed public will be better able to accept change.

    IGNORANCE is rarely bliss. For those reluctant to adapt to the needs of a low-carbon future, there may be some comfort in believing half- truths circulated for political gain, but eschewing action on climate change would condemn future generations to a world devoid of many of the physical comforts Australians now enjoy. That said, accepting the need for change depends on easy access to accurate information, something largely absent from much of the debate around the proposed carbon tax.

    Despite the prevalence of ill-informed nonsense in the right-wing media – focusing on how much higher household bills will be, for example, without acknowledging the accompanying compensation package – Climate Change Minister Greg Combet believes ”people are interested in the facts”. The latest Newspoll indicates that he may be right: support for the tax increased by 6 points to 36 per cent in the fortnight after Julia Gillard embarked on her journey around the nation to persuade voters of the merits of the Clean Energy Plan. Now Mr Combet has given Australians a slew of facts and a rare opportunity to comment on draft legislation.

    It may be unorthodox for a government to publish proposed legislation for public comment, but in the current political climate it is a smart move. The lack of clarity about how the plan will affect people has allowed a depth of antagonism and resistance to change, even in people once concerned that not enough was being done about climate change.

    In the scant reports about this legislation, the theme is the cost of the mail-out, $4 million. The total cost of advertising will be around $13 million.

    The GST advertising cost $15 million…..but that was different;
    John Howard had a willing press to aid his campaign!!

  11. patriciawa @ 9.29, you’re most welcome.
    So far there is no in-depth report in the MSM, and I don’t think we should hold our breath. Several pieces in The Australian from the usual suspects though.

  12. Tom R @ 9.10am, thanks for your link:

    with a link to:-

    Sizing the Clean Economy: A National and Regional Green Jobs Assessment

    The “green” or “clean” or low-carbon economy—defined as the sector of the economy that produces goods and services with an environmental benefit—remains at once a compelling aspiration and an enigma

  13. Gillard always wanted a price on carbon

    Remember that the before the last election, Gillard said she would view victory as a mandate for a carbon price and promised to legislate a carbon price in the next term as part of a bold series of reforms that included school funding, education and health.

    The Opposition Leader hasn’t been paying attention, in other words, he’s all transmission and no reception !

    He will be answering question on his blog at the Daily telegraph this afternoon and I’m not linking to that paper.
    Mr. Abbott wrote:-

    For someone who was going to “wear out the shoe leather” promoting her carbon tax, the Prime Minister has been very quiet lately. Since going to the relatively safe territory of the National Press Club a fortnight ago, she has been talking about anything but the carbon tax, presumably because the more she talks, the more toxic this tax seems.

    Well, I’m glad he mentioned that Press Club Address because that’s the one where the PM asked for equal column inches and TV news time as Mr. Abbott receives, and I don’t beieve she meant column inches of blah from the consistently critical opinion writers to balance their books.

    He also wrote this:-
    On Friday, she went to a school. Over the weekend, she went to Tasmania to talk about closing down more forests. On Monday, she announced that the Malaysia people swap had finally been signed – and sort-of-denied that she’d last year sent her inner cabinet colleagues a secret memo backing Coalition-style direct action. On Tuesday, she went to Melbourne to be the supporting act in a Tony Blair press conference and since then has had no public events at all. Not only has she not worn out her shoes, she’s hardly worn them in. No doubt head office has told her that the only safe way to talk about the carbon tax is to change the subject.

    Since carbon Sunday, I have had 54 radio interviews, eight TV interviews, 17 doorstop press conferences, eight mass meetings with workers and eight large community events. Since the carbon tax was first announced in February, I have done 244 radio interviews.

    This week, I addressed two events in Townsville, including a community forum, on Sunday afternoon; addressed 300 workers at the Yabulu nickel refinery, visited a marine rubbish clean-up and attended a tourism leaders’ round table at Airlie Beach and addressed a community forum in Mackay on Monday; attended a cattle industry leaders’ morning tea and addressed a civic event in Rockhampton on Tuesday; visited a carbon farmer, addressed factory workers and addressed a community event in Tamworth on Wednesday; and addressed a small business forum and visited a landcare project in Armidale on Thursday.

  14. Min and Tom, I think we’re at cross purposes…. are we talking about carbon or methane ???? 😳

  15. Gillard rejects ‘carbon cops’ criticism

    Prime Minister Julia Gillard has rejected strident Opposition criticism of the so-called carbon cops, the officials who will be appointed to police pollution levels from industry.

    The draft legislation for the scheme to put a price on carbon was released yesterday, including the details of the regulation mechanism.

    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has described the Government’s plan to monitor carbon emissions as “draconian”, criticising the amount of power the clean energy regulator would have.

    “This is a draconian new police force chasing an invisible, odourless, weightless, tasteless substance,” he said.

    PM Gillard replied:-

    “That’s remarkable to me, that [Mr Abbott] would criticise powers to make sure Australian families don’t get ripped off.

    “But that’s consistent with the approach Mr Abbott is taking on putting a price on carbon.

    “If people do the wrong thing then they should feel the full force of the law, including high fines and penalties. That’s appropriate if people try any rip-offs.”

    Ms Gillard has taken the offensive in the carbon tax debate, accusing Mr Abbott of continual and deliberate misrepresentation of the Government’s policy.

    “He told families that petrol would go up 6.5 cents per litre – that’s wrong. He told people who work in the steel industry it would shut down – that’s wrong. He told people who work in the coal industry it would shut down – that’s wrong. He’s told families there would be astronomical increases in the cost of living – that’s wrong too,” she said.

    “This is the hallmark of a man who doesn’t have any policy – all he’s got is a negative campaign against the Government’s plans inclusive of misrepresentation every step of the way.”

  16. “He told families that petrol would go up 6.5 cents per litre – that’s wrong. He told people who work in the steel industry it would shut down – that’s wrong. He told people who work in the coal industry it would shut down – that’s wrong. He’s told families there would be astronomical increases in the cost of living – that’s wrong too,” she said.

    wait till she starts on the weightles bit ROFL

  17. It’s getting to the point that he says so much crap I’d even find that hard to believe Min (no matter how accurate it is)

  18. Tom R,
    the PM could start with a slogan designed for repeating often, that Abbott is an intellectual lightweight.

  19. Comment from Erin Ahern who strangely has a surname resembling my own:

    Maybe we should put him in a room with 100% CO2 and see if he is so blasé about it then… and funny how he’s obviously only thinking of CO2, when methane is a greenhouse gas as well… and that certainly does have a smell!

  20. This should be shown to Mr. Abbott. As Min pointed out earlier, there is s-c-i-e-n-t-i-f-i-c equipment in the 21st century.

    Science plumbs depths to unravel climate change

    Scientists say new monitoring stations in the seas off Darwin in the Northern Territory will help them better predict changes in climate.

    The three monitoring stations have been placed in the Timor Passage and Ombai Strait north of Darwin as part of an Australia-wide project to monitor ocean conditions.

    They are up to three kilometres long and stretch from the ocean floor to 40 metres below the surface.

    Researcher Bernadette Sloyan from the CSIRO says the stations contain a range of instruments to monitor how warm water from the Pacific Ocean influences Indian Ocean ecosystems.

  21. This is a better link to the story above.

    Sea sentinels placed on climate watch

    Dr Bernadette Sloyan, of CSIRO’s Wealth from Ocean Flagship and the Centre for Australian Weather and Climate Research says the array of moorings will improve knowledge of coastal conditions around Australia, the Leeuwin Current along the west coast of Australia, and the Indonesian Throughflow.
    The Indonesian Throughflow is a powerful system of ocean currents that moves water, and transfers heat, from the equatorial waters of the Pacific Ocean to the Indian Ocean.
    The Timor Passage and Ombai Strait account for 80 per cent of the transfer of water from the Pacific to Indian oceans and act as “chokepoints” in the global system of ocean currents.
    Sloyan says the throughflow influences seasonal climate in Australia,
    but also plays a major role in global climate.

  22. ……..Abbott is an intellectual lightweight.

    Abbott is intellectually weightless and tasteless. Pity he’s not odourless. lol

    Tell Erin to get started on that chamber, Min.

  23. Jane, Erin would love to. I think that she and the other scientists at UQ are running one up this weekend. 😉

  24. I just posted this at unowhere

    I am really trying to understand why yabot is calling for revolt on the price on carbon, considering, according to his calculations, this so-called ‘tax’ will have absolutely no effect, NONE, on the Australian economy. In fact, this scheme will be the most unobtrusive reform ever visited upon the Australian public.

    If of course we are to take his arguments seriously.

    A hint, it is supposed to begin at $23-a-tonne 😉

  25.’re allowed. It’s called Gutter Trash 🙂 Migs actually does have a link up down the RHS.

    T’is because Tony just wants a revolution..because he wants one..because he wants one…

    Fear not, the Greens will be in the Senate very shortly and Abbott will be struggling to get a headline now we have the NBN and the Carbon Tax all done and almost dusted.

    This has been the PM’s strategy – she took a leaf out of the rodent’s book. All the ‘nasties’ out of the way in the early term of the government. This was always one of Howard’s tactics.

  26. I haven’t heard too much about the NBN lately. I thought the country was supposed to have collapsed under its ghastly influence.

    What would really make me laugh would be to find out that the Smuggles Set and their cheerleaders were connected and using it. What a bombshell that would be! I wonder if we could find out?

    And the anti-carbon price brigade will quickly lose traction once the price has been imposed and people realise that the sky is still in place and their wallet contains just as much money as before.

    The Smuggles Set will be hard put to find enough scare tactics to raise a headline.

  27. ‘Fear not, the Greens will be in the Senate very shortly and Abbott will be struggling to get a headline now we have the NBN and the Carbon Tax all done and almost dusted.’

    It’s odd how each side accuses the other of distorting science, ignoring reality and not tolerating opinions or facts that conflict with their beliefs. This bitter divisive battle will go beyond the next election and what fun.

    Yabott will uproot the tax on carbon dioxide and chuck it because the people will demand it. The electorate see the Labor/Green Coalition as green on the outside and red on the inside, smash the watermelons will become their catch cry.

    The careers of scientists are intertwined with protecting the science of anthropogenic global warming, but they don’t have a snowball’s chance in hell because climate changes naturally.

  28. el gordo, Smuggles won’t be overturning anything unless he is *shudder* PM for 2 terms and manages to get hold of the Senate. And I presume “the people” who will “demand” the carbon price be tossed are Anal’s and Dolt’s sycophants.

    The problem with this reasoning is that by the time the next election comes around, Dolt’s and Anal’s whingers will have seen that the sky hasn’t fallen in, they haven’t been rooned and they’ll have their hot hands on their share of the “tax” and I’m sure they won’t want to part with it.

    So if Smuggles does try to wrench it from their grasp, they could just turn on him and won’t that be fun to watch?

  29. Jane @ 7.28pm,
    the NBN is being trialled at Willunga, SA. with similar reports to Kiama, of business people moving to the area specifically because of the NBN.

    Locals impressed as Willunga tests national broadband

    Homes and businesses at Willunga just south of Adelaide have been part of a recent nationwide trial of whether the National Broadband Network (NBN) lives up to all its hype.

    Raaj Menon works in information technology is a self-described “gadget guy” who moved to Willunga earlier this year for just one reason.

    “I knew that Willunga is going to be fibred up so I bought a house and then when the trial came online checked with Internode and they said they’d put me on the trial,” he said.

    “You’re always online, you never lose connectivity.”

  30. Back to carbon tax…..and a laugh out loud moment….

    A letter to PM Gillard from No. 10 Downing St.

    Dear Julia, you have it right on your carbon tax

    BRITAIN’S Conservative Prime Minister, David Cameron, has personally congratulated Julia Gillard on her carbon tax policy in a letter penned from the desk of 10 Downing Street.

    In a clear embarrassment to the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott, and his Coalition – who have vehemently opposed any price on carbon – Mr Cameron described the federal Labor government’s move on climate change as “bold” and “ambitious”.

    Mr Cameron said he was convinced climate change was one of the “most pressing threats to [a nation’s] prosperity and security”.

    Opposition Leader Mr. Abbott is still on the ‘obstruction and obscurantism tour.

    [ Obscurant = One who opposes intellectual advancement and political reform.
    Or, an opposer of reform and enlightenment.]

    Mr Abbott – who claimed last week that he had never supported a carbon tax or emissions-trading scheme – was forced recently to back comments made by his shadow cabinet colleague, former opposition leader Malcolm Turnbull, who praised Mr Cameron as a visionary on climate change.

    However, Mr Abbott’s election-style campaign opposing the government’s proposed climate policy shows no sign of slowing, with the Opposition Leader sending a letter to the Auditor-General requesting an immediate audit of Labor’s $13.7 million advertising campaign selling the carbon tax.

    The Sun-Herald has obtained the document, which calls for “an urgent performance audit … into the decision-making processes of the [government] Independent Communications Committee as they relate to the ‘clean energy future’ advertising campaign.”

    The Howard government spent $15 million on fridge magnets + + + on the GST, and WorkChoices advertising and they didn’t ask the Opposition for permission.

  31. Pip, it does give one a warm fuzzy feeling to read the British PM support our Prime Minister.

    Me-thinks that it’s getting closer to my previous prediction that Turnbull will make a play for the leadership possibly as early as…well, we’ll have to wait and see on that one…

    MALCOLM Turnbull will come under fresh pressure over his climate views when he addresses the National Press Club on Wednesday….

    Last week he gave a passionate speech defending the mainstream science on climate change, which, although not contravening opposition policy, agitated many in the Coalition.

  32. Must be irking some whose minds are rooted in ignorance and right wing ideological nonsense, like the furphy of pro-AGW scientists being on the take, that it seems Gillard’s major reforms are being rolled out and in all likelihood cannot be rolled back.

    Thing about their ideological claptrap is that whilst they accuse one group of being on the take, they never bring up the fact that quack scientists and spruikers of anti-AGW nonsense are proven to be in the pay of vested interests and polluting industries.

    Strange statement I just read as everyone knows climate changes naturally. Oh well I guess some people are so mired in their ideological narrowness they think a statement of the obvious makes their point.

    But if they are saying that the current global warming is part of a natural cycle, no matter how many times across multiple blogs they have been given the evidence to the contrary. Here are just 50 reasons more that show why current global warming isn’t narural.

    50 reasons why global warming isn’t natural

  33. And the scare campaign continues…

    EMBATTLED NSW homeowners could be slugged more than $800 to give their houses a compulsory “green rating” before they are sold or leased, under a new federal government scheme.
    Mandatory “green ratings” for apartments and houses similar to those on new washing machines and fridges are to be introduced in the initiative to encourage more energy efficient homes.

    The ratings are part of the requirement for each state to introduce legislation requiring homeowners to disclose their home’s energy, greenhouse and water efficiency when they advertise it for sale or lease.

  34. Further to Min’s comment on the 29th @ 1.03pm.

    And a quotable quote from the above link:

    “I mean this is a draconian new police force chasing an invisible, odourless, weightless, tasteless substance,” Mr Abbott told Nine’s Today Show

    On the Insiders this morning:-

    iBARRIE CASSIDY: He’s right though when he says it’s odourless and invisible isn’t he? What does a tonne of carbon dioxide look like?

    GREG COMBET: (Laughs) Dear, oh dear. Well, I read a letter to the papers yesterday, one of the papers in Sydney I think, that try sticking your head in a bag with carbon dioxide and it doesn’t turn
    out to be such a harmless substance.

    There’s a lot one could add to that comment !!!

  35. Pip @1.37 and how much would that bag of CO2 weigh with Tony’s head in it?
    2 possible answers not much because of the hot air or heavy as a thick brick.

  36. Sue, given your alternatives my vote is for not much as even if as thick as a brick it would only be a superficial plaster cast.

  37. Pip @12.25am, if it was possible, I’d move to Willunga and be connected. Unfortunately, we’re stuck with wireless owing to lack of population and being off the beaten track. But it’s going to be soo good for the rest of the country. Like the letter from David Cameron, too.

    ME @8.06am, of course Smuggles won’t be able to roll it back and he knows it! So if he does get his greasy paws on the PMship come 2013, he’ll just cry a few cynical crocodile tears about how his hands are tied and nothing can be done.

    Bingo! Labour’s done all the hard yards, he looks like a thwarted hero to the Anal & Dolt Set and he’ll reap the benefits.

    Hopefully, people will have got used to the sky remaining where it’s always been, having their palms greased by 2013 and the carbon price schtick will be a no goer for LIEberal election fodder.

  38. Another stupid anti-carbon rally reported on ABC News that was all personal attacks against Gillard and very little about climate change. ABC stressed the “hundreds” turned out. Actually the whole news bulletin was an opposition campaign fest with Abbott being mentioned and given air time several times with no corresponding government time. The ABC also gave considerable time to the Republicans in the US over the budget impasse whilst not showing anything from Obama or the Democrats.

    Where is the balance?

  39. Mobius, it sounds to be a fun occasion…

    After assembling in Hyde Park, the group, aged mostly in their 50s, marched to Belmore Park, near Central Station, where speakers included Liberal MP Craig Kelly.

    “It’s furthering Julia Gillard’s socialist agenda because Bob Brown is in the driver’s seat and she’s pretty much the car.”

    He was unaware Britain’s prime minister had congratulated Ms Gillard on her carbon tax policy.

    “Oh, dear,” he said, shaking his head.

    “I can’t believe it.”

  40. ‘He expressed concern over voters in their 20s siding with the Australian Greens political party, which supports the carbon tax.’

    Well at least he didn’t express surprise. Mass delusion, inculcated through the education system, is a sight to behold.

  41. “He”..who? Well someone ‘expressed concern’..Abbott I suppose..

    Umm, what was that again ‘inculcated through the education system’..

    And your proof for the above is?

    Teachers teach the curriculum, they provide factual information and encourage children to think for themselves and to form their own conclusions. As a former teacher I can guarantee that opinions are formed at home.

  42. I am so glad to hear that all those children educated in the non-public school system are being equally informed.

  43. el gordo clearly you remain unaffected by any ‘education’ system. The evidence abounds.

  44. At least 150.000 turned out in Oslo, a city of around 600.000. That I cal a protest vote. A protest to stop the hate.

    Nigh a nasty poster in sight. No screaming and ranting. Just thousands of people who moved through the city in an orderly manner.

    It the anti carbon pricing people turn out like that, I might believe it is an majority, not a noisy ranting minority.

    Back in my younger years, these numbers would have been laughed at and consider not worth worrying about. They may have been noisy, angry and noisy but rarely small.

    I noticed that a new way of looking at the PM is emerging. One on Insiders today. I think it was Kenny who said he has noticed that people are moving from hating and being angry with the PM, to being sorry for her. He seen this as a bad thing for her.

    I suspect there maybe a turn about in the polls and he is preparing a negative groundwork to meet the change.

  45. ‘Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.’

    You will remember the global cooling scare in the 1970s, but it’s unlikely any of the youngsters know anything other than global warming.

    It has all been so easy, creating mass delusion, with the scientists, politicians and a compliant media all doing their bit for the greater good.

    Mass delusion of this nature can be easily rectified and is not life threatening.

  46. Then why el gordo all is it the deniers mostly being paid for by the polluting industries and vested interests spreading the lies, distortions and deceits, not the scientists you keep denigrating with no evidence, just a wild unfounded accusation. That alone proves you have nothing, never had anything and just make it up as you go or just troll because this petty small mindlessness somehow gets your rocks off.

    Also it is the scientists, usually not climatologists, quasi scientists and quacks claiming to know the science who are being paid far more than the pro-AGW climatologists.

    As has been pointed out, why are all these climate scientists, the vast majority of climate scientists in the world, running on annual grants that are never certain, many who are not being that well remunerated when they can be on easy street for the rest of their lives by working for industries?

    I don’t know about mass delusion but I certainly frequently see someone who is individually delusional when it comes to climate change, so much so they cannot provide sources or lucid info, just one wild unfounded statement after another on top of baseless accusations.

  47. To some, science fiction and pseudo science is more interesting. You do not have to deal with the nasty facts that genuine science can throw up.

  48. CU @7.25 did you notice today on Insiders the cartoons portrayed Abbott as either stalled or heading for oblivion.

  49. Sue, I heard that the camera crew did not turn up for one of his stunts.

    Maybe MSM cannot keep up with the air fares.

    Please can someone give the costing for Mr. Abbott’s ramblings for the last two or three months.

    I assume the government picks up the tab, while Mr. Abbott traipses around the country, talking down the economy. Evens Mr. Stevens acknowledges this fact..

  50. El gordo @ 7.31pm “it’s unlikely any of the youngsters know anything other than global warming.”

    Aww el gordo can be just so sweet at times. 😉

    Here’s one – the ozone depletion observed since the 1970’s but it took until 1993 before Dupont shut down the CFC facility.

  51. When Roland and Molina first came up with their theory in 1974 the scientific community thought it was a joke until the mid-80s, when suddenly there were plenty of funds available for the study of such things.

    From my reading no clear link between manmade pollutants and ozone depletion over Antarctica has been established.

    The hole is apparently a natural phenomenon, affected by climatic shift in the upper atmosphere.

    Somebody made a lot of money out of this scam and I don’t mean the scientists. The Montreal Protocol is another example of mass delusion.

  52. The greatest conspiratorial advocator I’ve read, el gordo.

    But isn’t it telling that with no evidence or facts he accuses one side of being in it for the money or governments doing it for the power whilst ignoring the huge sums of money being used by the other side of the debate with long term evidence of their conspiracy to deliberately prevarivate, obfuscate and distort the facts and data.

    Yet without any evidence time and again he keeps accusing scientists of just one side being on the take whilst never ever responding to the numerous examples given of the side he takes being on the take and making things up.

  53. Meanwhile in the real world, el gordo’s regional cooling has the US continuing to swelter in record high temperatures with more deaths recorded and school kids who are outside being constantly monitored for signs of heat stress, whilst in Australia both Melbourne and Sydney have had the hottest starts to August since records began.

  54. Mobius, the science is not settled.

    Yes, interesting weather, everyone is blaming the jet stream. In Ireland it has been the coolest July in 40 years.

    So we know the cause and it has nothing to do with AGW….unless of course we have reached the fabled tipping point.

    Ha ha

  55. el gordo I agree the science is not settled and this is something I’ve stated from the outset, unlike you who has the science totally settled the other way. You nearly always state in absolutes against the AGW science and then cherry pick bits and pieces, mostly out of context and that often doesn’t support the contention you make.

    So I throw in a couple of hot events here because you wrongly troll in bits about cooling around the globe whilst ignoring the extreme heat events, and here you go doing it again, and even that you can’t get right.

    It was the coolest June in 40 years and the coolest July in 50 years for Ireland.

    Regional weather does not a global climate make. A globally increasing number and severity of extreme regional weather events both hot and cold does indicate an abnormal trend in our climate.

  56. I also note he yet again ingored a post on the anti-AGW mob using large amounts of vested interest money to deliberately muddy the waters whilst el gordo continues to accuse the AGW proponents of being on the take, but without offering any evidence for this accusation.

    If anyone thinks about 95% of climate scientists being on the take and what it involves to undertake and maintain that then it quickly becomes apparent for the conspiratorial nonsense it is, especially in the light that those climate scientists would make far more money switching to the opponent view.

  57. Cherry picking weather is important because we can test our theories. Regional cooling is happening now and its normal, or should I say natural, similar to the 1950s.

    This is not what the AGW script predicts and don’t give me the malarchy of more severe weather events can be expected with global warming.

  58. ‘and don’t give me the malarchy of more severe weather events can be expected with global warming.’

    Yea, cos if you ignore what they said, then they never said it, right 😉

  59. So regional warming isn’t happening then, just regional cooling?

    And when I say you cherry pick it is not in the way you conceptualised it in your last post. You don’t cherry pick to test theories, what a laugh, you cherry pick because mostly you half read something you have stumbled across on the web and it appears to be a good thing to use for trolling. That on several occasions your cherry picked item has turned out to be the opposite of what you said it was or in fact did not support your contention illustrates that you indeed cherry pick to troll and wouldn’t know what testing a theory is.

    The greatest joke, “we” can test “our” theories. Yet again attempting to make out you know more than what actually do.

  60. So the wayward jet stream is not responsible for the unseasonable weather in some regions?

    What is your theory?

  61. ‘What caused the jet stream to be wayward. Something to do with higher temperatures maybe.’

    Unlikely, there are no tipping points in sight so it may have something to do with the sun.

    Our climate is not becoming more extreme because of AGW.

  62. El gordo..Melbourne now has a climate similar to Adelaide and poor old Adelaide has been subjected to how many dust storms. Adelaide is supposed to have Mediterranean climate.

    Here in the northern rivers we no longer have a wet season and a dry season but a climate appoximating that of Sydney.

    Just talk to the agriculturalists.

  63. “Our climate is not becoming more extreme because of AGW.”

    el gordo, you agree the weather is becoming more extreme.

    Of course it is the sun making things hotter. That occurs when the atmosphere changes.

    The sun makes me hotter if I do not stand under a shade.

    Remember the hole in the ozone layer that led to more extreme sunburn.

    Nothing in nature occurs in isolation.

    Change one thing, and everything around what you change also changes.

  64. “A similar spell of such warm weather at this time of year has not been seen in south-eastern Australia in over 30 years, with 1975 the last instance of such warmth at the end of July and start of August. In some cases the temperatures we are currently seeing have never been recorded previously at this time of year,” said Alex Zadnik, chief meteorologist at Weatherzone.

    Read more:

    The last time we experienced this was during the previous cool IPO, so the jet steam must have been in similar mode then.

    Min I will look into the northern rivers wet and dry to see if its anecdotal.

  65. ‘It appears that el gordo is open to any reason as long as it is not AGW.’

    That’s a fair comment.

  66. el gordo..go for it. It’s the CSIRO Report which has had to be factored into LEPs for coastal shires – who have to be prepared for the effects of climate change.

    Byron Shire has had this factored in for the past decade. If you live on the absolute coast such as I do then you can see it for yourself.

  67. Okay I’ll have a closer look.

    Joe will be scrapping the DCC in a couple of years, with the loss of 12,000 civil service jobs.

    JOE HOCKEY: Yeah. Well the Department of Climate Change will be pretty high up the list for very close scrutiny.

    TONY JONES: You mean, you’ll be thinking of disbanding it.

    JOE HOCKEY: Yep.

  68. Every now and then I think it is enlightening for us to look back at the sad little history of grodo; and his lying, trolling ways.

    When he restarted back up at the gutter lying, he began by declaring shamefacedly that he didn’t care that he was lying

    Now I realize you will rush off to RC or Tamino and find a rebuttal for Easterbrook….don’t bother I’ve already seen them.

    So the question needs to be asked, why post already debunked rantings?

    Unfortunately, his history of lying in regard to AGW goes way back. He was a serial pest at deltoid

    Totally off-topic: [Deleted because it’s off topic]

    Posted by: el Gordo | May 13, 2010 6:15 AM

    Yes, he has real trouble staying ‘on topic’, preferring to drop a false allegation, and then move right along as if it had never happened.

    el gordo, put what ever fake narrative around it that you like. You have been caught spouting untruths (for the umpteenth time) and I’m asking your to come clean and help others learn from your “mistake”. Did you make up the bogus figures you attributed to the IPCC, and if not prove it by directing us to a reference.

    Couldn’t find the answer to that. He appears to have attempted to move onto another ‘topic’. Modus Operandi?

  69. But wait, there’s more

    His own thread itself is an enlightening little piece of denialati waffle, best summed up by Andrew in that self same thread

    el Gordo

    Quite possible, I’ll have a look.

    How hilarious.

    The whole denialist tragedy caught in that little response. el Gordo and his ilk seem to think that without actually being involved in any research themselves they’ll somehow be able to discover a flaw that thousands of scientists have overlooked.

    It appears that he never did find that elusive scrap of evidence he believes so adamantly must be out there.

    But then grodo discovered an entirely new form of scientific research, scraping comments from fellow loonies on denialist blogs, and pretending they are scientifically valid contributions

    I think it is pertinent to regularly provide these updates, considering the voluminous amount of random rubbish grodo posts. In this case, I have preferred to simply post this instead of debunking him


  70. ‘I have preferred to simply post this instead of debunking him.’

    Good thing too, I have my head in the northern rivers at the moment and may be away for awhile.

  71. ‘The catchment has also experienced a significant drop in annual rainfall at a rate of approximately 10 mm per decade in the west and 50 mm per decade in the east.

    ‘The contribution of human activities to this rainfall decline is hard to distinguish from natural variability.

    ‘Nevertheless, despite this trend toward drier conditions, there is also potential for seasonal increases in extreme rainfall events.’

    This document came out in 2007 before big La Nina, but there is no indication that the wet/dry seasons have changed.

    …………..Tommo, the girls don’t need your big heart to protect them, ME will be here any tick of the clock.

  72. “Unfortunately, his history of lying in regard to AGW goes way back. He was a serial pest at deltoid”

    I thought he is a she from somethiong he/she said the other day..

    A different slant. It is alittle boring reading the same thing over and over. I noticed on another site, the big lie is back again.

    “Climate Action for the 21st Century demonstrates how government is acting decisively to mitigate and adapt to the direct consequences related to climate change, building on commitments contained in the Climate Action Plan which was released in 2008. It summarizes key initiatives and progress made through 2009 and describes actions that will be undertaken as government moves closer to its target.
    The report fulfills the Greenhouse Gas Reductions Target Act requirements with respect to the progress, action ……

    …….Global Climate Change is Already Happening
    Evidence of global climate change is widespread and clear:
    The increase in temperature observed in the northern hemisphere during the 20th century is the largest of any century during the past 1,000 years.
    The global average temperature rose by 0.6°C over the 20th century.
    The 1990s was the warmest decade, and 1998 was the warmest year ever measured with instruments (since 1861).
    Snow cover has decreased by 10 per cent since the 1960s.
    Mountain glaciers in the non polar regions have retreated during the last 100 years.
    Lakes and rivers are now free of ice earlier in the spring.
    The overall average ocean temperature has increased since the late 1950s.
    The global average sea level rose between 10 to 20 centimetres over the past 100 years.

    What causes climate change?
    Human Influence on the Climate System
    Fossil fuel burning has led to a significant increase in the amount of greenhouse gases (GHGs) in the atmosphere. Scientists have determined, for instance, that human activities since the Industrial Revolution in the mid-1800s have resulted in a large increase in carbon dioxide — a powerful greenhouse gas — mainly because of the burning of fossil fuels. The current global average of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is higher than at any time in the last 420,000 years, and likely the last 20 million years. The speed of this increase is unprecedented during at least the past 20,000 years.
    Scientists link the human-caused increase in carbon dioxide and other GHGs with a recent warming of the global atmosphere, known as “global warming.” The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, established by the United Nations to assess scientific information related to climate change, has concluded that greenhouse gas emissions from human activities are altering the atmosphere in ways that are expected to affect the global climate system.
    The six greenhouse gases included under the international Kyoto Protocol are: carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, sulphur hexafluoride, hydrofluorocarbons and perfluorocarbons. Scientists are able to lump these six gases together under the simple name “carbon” by figuring out their carbon dioxide equivalent. So when we talk about “carbon footprint” and “carbon neutral,” for example, we are referring to all of the major greenhouse gases, not just carbon dioxide.
    Future Climate Change
    Using computer models, scientists are able to estimate how much the earth will continue to warm over the next 100 years, depending on how much human activities continue to alter the composition of the atmosphere. Depending on the choices people all over the world take in reducing their reliance on fossil fuels, the global average temperature will likely increase from 1.4°C to 5.6°C over this century. To put these figures in perspective, the earth’s average temperature during the last ice age was only 5°C colder than at present.
    A rise in average global temperature doesn’t mean that every region of the world will warm uniformly. The vast ocean areas will warm gradually and the continental areas more dramatically. Some areas will likely become wetter, some drier, some hotter, and some places will be cooler. We can expect more extreme warming in the northern latitudes (such as Canada) and the interior of continents (i.e., non coastal areas) — as much as 40 per cent greater than the global average.
    The excess greenhouse gases already in the atmosphere will continue to affect the global climate for centuries. Efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions now and in the future will reduce climate change impacts, but they will not prevent climate change……”

  73. I take it when the Opposition twists the truth it is not lying.

    “I include as part of the Opposition’s misinformation campaign a recent intervention in the carbon price debate by former prime minister John Howard, who has attempted in recent weeks to reinvent the Liberal Party’s history of support for an emissions trading scheme.

    Asked by Barrie Cassidy on the ABC’s Insiders program on July 17, “you went to the 2007 election supporting an ETS. What’s so wrong with it now?” Mr Howard said: “Well, the rest of the world is not doing it. Whereas the whole basis of what we put forward was that the rest of the world was inexorably moving towards a carbon tax and yet that’s not happening”.

    Advertisement: Story continues below This answer is wrong for at least two reasons. First, the rest of the world is acting. Secondly, in his desperation to back the opposition’s misinformation campaign, Mr Howard has forgotten his clear statements in 2007.

    This is what he said on announcing the Liberal ETS plan in 2007:

    “Australia will continue to lead internationally on climate change, globally and in the Asia-Pacific region,” he told a Liberal Party federal council meeting two days after announcing his ETS blueprint.

    “This will be a world-class emissions trading system more comprehensive, more rigorously grounded in economics, and with better governance than anything in Europe.”

    In an address to the Melbourne Press Club a month later, Mr Howard said: “In the years to come it will provide a model for other nations to follow.

    “Being among the first movers on carbon trading in this region will bring new opportunities and we intend to grasp them.”

    And what about Mr Howard’s response at a news conference in the run up to the 2007 election:

    Journalist: ”Haven’t you locked Australia into an emissions trading scheme in the next term?”

    Howard: ”Yes, I have.”

    Journalist: ”Regardless of what our trading competitors do?”

    Howard: ”Yes, but that is precisely the sort of contribution we should make.”

    Mr Howard is not alone in this orchestrated Liberal Party attempt to rewrite history.

    The whole Liberal front bench with the notable exception of Malcolm Turnbull, wishes to forget that the Liberal Party went to the 2007 federal election firmly committed to the introduction of an ETS and pricing carbon, and remained committed to that policy until the end of November 2009. The worst memory seems to be that of Opposition Leader Tony Abbott who said last week that he had ”never been in favour of a carbon tax or an emissions trading scheme”. In 2009 Mr Abbott said that Liberals were ”taking this issue seriously and we would like to see an ETS”.

    Read more:

  74. Catching Up at 9.16
    Well said. I’ve been angry & amazed form day one of Abbott’s leadership that the media’s let the coalition get away with not only a perfect backflip on the policy they took to the 2007 election but have also allowed them to ridicule it. Plus as you say they’re now being allowed to rewrite history.
    This is just one example of the easy run Abbott gets.

  75. ‘The vast ocean areas will warm gradually and the continental areas more dramatically.’

    That isn’t happening.

    ‘Some areas will likely become wetter, some drier, some hotter, and some places will be cooler.’

    This is also true with regional cooling.

    ‘We can expect more extreme warming in the northern latitudes …’

    That isn’t happening either.

  76. ‘…you seem to be alone in saying the world is cooling.’

    Yeah I know, some people are born and bred heretics.

    The Denialati were wetting themselves when they thought the NH sea ice would slip below 2007, but it looks like Gaia has come to our rescue.

  77. “That isn’t happening.”

    Another outright lie

    “That isn’t happening either.”

    Followed very closely by another

    I’ll just add them to my list 🙂

    And I don’t think anyone here needs anyone else to protect them. I just felt it was time to highlight your embarrassing history of trolling again, so as to put your current efforts into perspective.

  78. el gordo changes tact again, no surprise there. He shifts tact and posts yet another graph out of the blue with no context or data behind it and from a site that is proven to bullshit.

    The real story on sea ice:

    First a link to the source so you can get the full context: National Snow and Ice Data Centre

    Now a graph from the source, and damn if I can see the trend line going up el gordo: Northern Hemisphere Extent Anomalies July 2011

    Now tell us, is the sea ice extent trending up or down? A simple “up” or “down” answer is all that’s needed.

    Now while doing things properly, here is the full context and complete graph for the deliberately manipulated image el gordo posted: Current IJIS SIE graph.

    And to further put it in context, which is a strange concept for el gordo: Precis of the Interantional Arctic Research Centre findings:

    July 31st 2011

    In the last SIE update I mentioned some of the differences between this year’s melting season and last year’s. These differences, however, do not seem to make much of a difference when it comes to extent decrease.

    The rate of extent decrease has been stalling big time ever since weather patterns started shifting two weeks ago, offseting the influence of insolation that has warmed up the water considerably through June and the first half of July.

    Area decrease was quite significant for a while though, making this year’s trend line on the CAPIE graph plunge precipitously, a sign that the ice pack has been spreading out quite a bit. Not to the level of last year when we saw ‘holes’ showing up in large areas of the interior of the ice pack, but we might start seeing those in the coming two weeks.

    The big difference with last year is in my view that last year had been dealing with a very positive Arctic Oscillation around this time, whereas this year the AO was slightly positive for a while, but is now increasingly turning negative.

    Again I ask el gordo, if you are so right and the proponents of global warming have it wrong why is it you and many of those you link to have to manipulate information,, but worse still, make things up and distort facts to argue your position? If you are so right as you keep averring you are, then the facts and data would speak for themselves without any need for the prevarications, diversions and the deceits by the highly paid by vested interest groups’ spruikers like Monkton et al.

    If you are so right then you would never need to post out of context and non-sourced/linked bits and disconnected graphs, that you continue to do so proves more than anything just how wrong you are and probably more, proves you do that just to troll.

  79. Howard lies on it and Abbott of course, who lies on everything everyday but is never held to account for it, and now O’Farrell, who is failing miserably as NSW Premier whilst breaking promise after promise. Breaking his promise on a drunk and disorderly law is just the latest in a string of broken promises.

    Believing Barry O’Farrell could cost you “up to” 100 IQ points

    This is the man who time and again said he isn’t Labor and would be open and transparent whilst not making excuses or blaming Labor. From the day he got into power he has done little but some grandstanding, lied through his teeth and blamed Labor both old State and current Federal for his failures whilst making one excuse after another.

    Difference is that O’Farrell’s failures and lies are not making daily media headlines as the previous government was, and even when it wasn’t a failure for the Labor State government the media slanted it as one. O’Farrell on the other hand in the little press he does get, is getting nothing but praise and a free run.

  80. ‘Tommo is defending the girls from the beastly troll.’

    Not just a troll, but also apparently a sexist little weed. You really are a low act grodo

  81. Liberal Heresies
    Thank you for that link to Poe’s Law. I just love the internet.
    And thanks to Cafewhispers where I get to “meet” so many interesting people.

  82. Of course according to lie a minute Abbott and the rest of the nay saying doom merchants a carbon tax will never work and will send Australia broke relegating us to the stone age.

    Maybe that’s because what a NZ Conservative government can do our dysfunction and mad as hatters Conservative oppositon always negative can never achieve.

    NEW Zealand’s emissions trading scheme has helped boost investment in renewable energy and cut greenhouse gas emissions, according to a review by the country’s conservative government.

    It also appears to have won over a sceptical business community, with 63 per cent of companies saying in submissions to a government panel they backed the climate scheme. Two years ago 78 per cent were opposed.

  83. Yes Me, it looks like carbon trading schemes are working the world over, in face of stiff opposotion from vested interests.

    Region-wide, since RGGI launched climate change air pollution is down 30 percent, and energy costs are 15 to 30 percent due in part to RGGI-funded energy efficiency programs. These energy efficiency programs will create nearly 18,000 job years (a year’s worth of work). Overall, because of RGGI, the region’s economy has grown by more than $2.6 billion.

    And already, New Jersey’s participation in RGGI has put the state on the road to voters’ clean-energy goals. RGGI has delivered more than $52 million for clean energy projects that support new and existing jobs in the state, and can save consumers and businesses money. If Governor Christie sticks with the program, that number will grow exponentially.

  84. Seems my prophecy regarding the US economy was correct. It cannot recover as it has destroyed its own manufacturing industries through mega corporation greed in forcing companies offshore to provide the lowest possible price to the likes of Wal Mart which pays such low wages that their staff are on wlefare benefits to make ends meet.

    Only now it seems, have the American politcians even opened one of their eyes to face the truth.

    The Republican and Tea Party still remain in denial by refusing to restore taxes for the rich at appropriate levels which were only to be reduced temporaily for a set period as a means of creating employment ( yep like that was gonna happen). Yet they maintain the rage over defence and wars which are the biggest drain on the country.

  85. Shane, that is one thing that I could never understand. In America it used to be ‘a job for life’ where an employer such as Ford provided not only a job but a house and life insurance. Gradually and especially in the past two decades this has been eroded so that there is now a huge American under-class.

    It used to be work for the company and buy from the company store. If you have a huge under-class then these people cannot be consumers. For an economy based on consumerism, this is a disaster.

  86. I didn’t know chooks are called ‘girls’, apologies for any offense.

    Tommo is very gallant and a good defender of the faith.

  87. Min

    The big bosses never seem to understand if you pay the middle class less and less they become unable to be consumers.

    Instead the justification has been all about the salaries of the top few and how their responsibility demands such obscene wages, irrespective of the fact that if only the top few can afford their product they will go out of business.

  88. Shane, clearly the top 5% of wage earners do not shop in Walmart. They buy luxury imported goods and online, neither of which are labor intensive – and Australia is heading in the same direction.

  89. Min

    Sadly we are. In addition the Retail Association is requesting 24hr opening hours. I don’t know how extended hours will help when there is a limited spending dollar. Can only spend the same amount of money whether they are open 9-5 or all the time.

    My only thought is that it will allow retail to further casualise staff to lower their employment and superannuation costs and increase the burden on the taxpayer in the future.

  90. Meta there are blogs which don’t have smiley faces and are still funny. Key words are important and a sarc/ flag is a worthwhile piece of equipment if there is too much ambiguity.

    That’s alright in a safe environment where everyone is thinking the same, but as you see here and ‘toilet’ discovered at the Bolter…..there is a devisive mood

  91. Shane, I don’t believe that 24hr service will lead to employing more people…just horrendous rosters for existing workers. I can understand 24hr service in tourist towns such as Cairns as customers can arrive any time day or night, but even in Cairns you will not find much open from midnight to 5am.

  92. El gordo, I will have to differ with you there. Smilies are useful as they provide a ‘visual clue’. Normally when we converse with people we can read their body language, but just written one has little idea as to that person’s body language.


    I dislike that comment. 😉
    I dislike that comment 😦

  93. Arctic ‘tipping point’ may not be reached

    Ltd News is a little behind the times Shane. A windshift over the last two weeks may have bought a delay to the Arctic melt, which is what the partial graph el gordo posted and the complete one I linked to are showing. This year was heading for a record melt but has now suddenly veered away from that, but the overall ice retreat trend is still alarmingly decreasing at an accelerating rate, which of course el gordo avoided by only posting a graph devoid of any explanation, sourcing or context.

  94. ME

    Thanks for that and I knew you meant “increasing”

    Coles in Tamworth sought 24hr trading approval quite a number of years ago and it was granted. Only lasted 6 months and then back to 8am-9pm.

  95. Shane you will not that the sea ice extent for April and May this year was also more than the 2007 record and then dipped to less than the 2007 record and if the winds shift again then that could very well be the case again.

    el gordo was very disingenuous in posting just a small portion of the full graph and zooming right in on that small portion so the increase in extent looked dramatic. First just posting the picture with no links, sources explanation or context was not being honest and secondly it again shows just how the opponents have little on their side and the deniers have nothing in that they must continually resort to ruses, distortions and misinformation to make their arguments whilst the proponents do nothing more than publish the facts.

  96. ‘el gordo was very disingenuous in posting just a small portion of the full graph ‘

    You clicked on his link 😯

    Sorry, I have given up doing that. links are precious, must not waste 😉

  97. Min, I have nothing against smiley faces in small intimate sheds like here and GT, but elsewhere it’s not so common.

    Visiting Jennifer Marohasy’s blog the other day I came across a very dry comment by ‘Catching Up’ which went straight over the heads of the locals.

    It was a good example of Poe’s Law in action.

  98. el gordo re ‘small intimate sheds’. You obviously have zilch idea of how many hits we receive every day.

  99. If you are getting traffic, other than the regulars, congratulations on achieving that.

    What percentage would you say are casual drop ins who don’t comment?

  100. That one would be for the boss, but I can provide a guess-timate. Try 40 drop ins for every comment, but Migs can correct me on that one but I think that it’s reasonably accurate. Let’s not forget that Migs’ Facebook group is Australians for an Honest Media. The link is on the RHS.

  101. “‘Catching Up’ which went straight over the heads of the locals.”

    Maybe you could remind me of the quote.

    I looked up the meaning of Poe’s Law. I am having trouble understanding what it means or how it applies to me.

    Your comment has definitely gone over my head.

  102. They were discussing sending the glossy handouts back and you said:

    ‘No, you must not read it.

    ‘That is dangerous, don’t you know this PM is capable of changing your mind if you listen to what she has to say.

    ‘You must continue to listen to what we tell you she is saying.’

    I laughed because it was dry and I know where you stand, so I appreciated the humor. Here’s Meta’s link on Poe’s Law.

  103. el gordo,unlike you, I feel most on that site are intelligent enough to know I was being sarcastic.

    Sarcastic, a good old fashion word.

    What’s more, I meant what I said.

  104. I know most of the characters over there and don’t think they recognized the sarcasm.

    Either way, I thought it funny.

    They are a bright lot, even Luke their regular troll has tenacity and good links.

  105. El gordo, the truth is out there. You’re just looking in the wrong place.

    Incidentally, you appear the sort of bloke who doesn’t believe in UFOs, Bigfoot, life after death, that Elvis is still alive, that the MI5 killed John Lennon, evolution, who still believes that Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK and that Michael Jackson invented the moonwalk.

    Thank god you still believe in the Tooth Fairy.

  106. El gordo, indeed it is a good percentage and getting better all of the time. I’m sure that you’ve noticed a good number of new visitors in the last few weeks.

  107. Min, the site is becoming very interesting. Lots of new comments.

    We seemed to have moved on being struck on a couple of issues, going round in circles, like being on a merry go round.

    New blood makes us all do better.

    el gordo failed in his/her the failure to change anyone’s mind by alleging this is a site made up of a few like minded people.

    It appears most have become stronger in their beliefs.

  108. CU, we did get stuck on media issues there for a while but the Murdoch story was certainly VIP. I believe that a lot of the problem goes back to the MSM – while they are focussed on not much else than Tony Abbott, then other newsworthy items tend to not even make it into the papers.

  109. The PM also appears to have got onto the front foot.

    The government has put a lot out into the public arena.

    There are now many issues, along with lots of data and facts to debate.

    It is getting harder for the MSM not to address real issues, not what they like to create.

    Many issues are at long last are coming to fruition.

  110. ‘the failure to change anyone’s mind’

    I have been around the traps long enough to know that nobody will have their minds changed by someone who walks in off the street.

    Everyone here is convinced of the veracity behind the scientific consensus on global warming, that carbon dioxide causes temperatures to rise, so there is little point in trying to change people’s minds.

    It’s more fun coming here than going to a very large shed where everyone is singing the same tune in perfect harmony.

  111. You change people’s minds el gordo? You really do live in an alternate reality or are pulling our legs. If you posted facts, sources and data that proved your stance instead of just trolling then you could go a long way to convincing people you have it right. Instead with nearly every post you confirm you’re wrong or at a minimum if they are uncertain they will lean toward the Anthropogenic Global Warming argument rather than your mostly nonsensical, mostly diversionary mostly one or two line devoid of facts statements.

    And yet again in your last post you post in such a way as to infer that you are absolutely right and everyone else with a different position is wrong, but you do this from the standpoint that the science isn’t settled, yet you make absolute no compromise settled statements all the time for your narrow and erroneous point of view.

    Finally it appears from your statement on Luke that you don’t know what an internet troll is, just as you really missed the point on Poe’s Law as it pertained to you, or you do but as you do with so many things that pertain to when your failings in blogging are highlighted you throw them onto others as a diversion and diversions are something you do all the time.

  112. “so there is little point in trying to change people’s minds.”

    el gordo, why do you then persist in trying to change minds.

    What is your point in saying the same thing over and over.

    It could be that you like listening to your own voice.

  113. “‘No, you must not read it.’

    Very dry CU, but nobody around here picked up on it. Try again, imitate Luke, he’s our resident troll.

    Comment from: spangled drongo August 3rd, 2011 at 9:50 pm ”

    This must be you, e; gordo.

    or is this you.

    Anyone who thinks Tanya was any value needs to trade in their rose coloured glasses. IMO Brendan O’Neill was the stand-out performer on the show. Much as I dislike Peter Dutton, he should get some credit as well.

    Comment from: el gordo August 3rd, 2011 at 9:05 pm

    At least you should use your own words when making a comment.

  114. I don’t know much about this conversation but one thing that I do have a working knowledge of and this is human nature, that people only know what they want to know and if factual information does not fit into their preconceived ideas they will reject it as superfluous to their needs.

  115. ‘What is your point in saying the same thing over and over.’

    I explained to your comrades earlier that I have an obsession with weather, its nothing to warrant your concern.

    It might be best if I become one of those thousands who come here and say nothing, yet become empowered by the view of a bunch of chooks.

    No sexist comment meant.

  116. El gordo you say that you’re obsessed with the weather, so you’re on the land then. That’s fair enough. If you’re talking about chooks then you’re most definitely on the land.

  117. Someone got it wrong…. again.

    Arctic Sea Ice Extent Reaches Record Low

    Might be a lesson in having such a glued on stance that goes against the significant majority scientific viewpoint and evidence that its wise to look carefully before leaping in and jumping onto a one off or short term piece of information that appears to support that narrow minded and errornous stance, because as in this case you will be often proven wrong in the long run.

    On another unrelated to climate change piece of information that also shows you should look carefully at long term trends before leaping onto a single piece of data that might appear to support your contention, Bolt continues to plummet, and I believe someone was making a point about his supposed good ratings a little while back. His encore is now rating well below 100,000 viewers and his main edition is only just above that figure.

    In the meantime Insiders has been trending upwards and is now back over 200,000 viewers for just the single main edition.

    Trouble for Bolt and Gina is that Bolt’s show doesn’t hold enough interest or substance for even the most rusted on extreme wingnuts, so must be unsustainable as a Rhinehart propaganda outlet and it’s days must be numbered.

  118. ME. do you really believe that acts would influence their beliefs. The Bolt show is getting very hard to watch. It is no good for anyone with blood pressure. I had to tkae a break during the last effort.

    I think we need some of those paper bags that a blogger is handing out as presents. He is correct, they can be handy. Yoiu do not have to fly to use them. A necccessary when watching Bolt.

  119. CU, you’re a tougher woman than I am. I don’t have blood pressure problems, but I would if I watched Dolt any longer than about 30 nano seconds.

  120. Point is that even the rusted wingnuts are abandoning The Bolt Report and only the most rusted on must be left, but I think even they will not stay with it. Even if they do, it is not they who Gina needs to aim propaganda at. At best Gina can only get the occasional sound bite or mention, and from what I have observed they are now very thin on the ground, but that still requires advertisers to stay. Advertising spots can be given away for free but still even for nothing do they want to be shown in that spot?

  121. I like to do what I urge others to do, is to listen first hand and make up my own mind.

    I am finding Bolt a little hard to keep to my desire to keep abreast first hand.

    Maybe I will have to be satisfied with keeping an eye o his blogs, reading only the headers.

    I do not have high blood pressure, but I do not want to tempt fate.

    I think I will give his show a miss, after all I mouth what he is going to say now before he opens his mouth. I feel I will miss nothing.

  122. A wise move, CU. I think you’ve done your bit for freedom and democracy. I hope that watching the Dolt Show hasn’t permanently damaged your health.

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