I am confused, I do not understand

Post by: Catching up

I am a little confused about Australian politics today. The following is what I understand the situation to be.

We have a legit elected minority government that on all accounts is performing well. We have a strong economy, employment, trade balance and stable interest rates.

There are problems with a two or multiple speed economy. I believe the proposed tax on miners is important in bringing some balance to the economy.

We do have a problem with lack of confidence in the economy. I wonder how much of this lack of confidence can be sheeted home to the negative and down talking of the economy of the leader of the Opposition. There are concerns of what is occurring overseas, in Europe. The Asian region which we are a part of is still seen as going strong.

This government is not in coalition but has the support of the Greens and three independents. The Greens and Independents have given assurance not to support censure motions of the PM unless circumstances change dramatically.

The PM has gained the support of the Greens and Independents to bring in certain legalisation.

Two other independents are not aligned to either party. These two have given support to both the government and the Opposition. One, Mr. Katter has not voted on half of the divisions.

The government has bought down and it has been passed, a budget that most say meets the needs of Australia. There has been no dissent in getting the budget through parliament. It has been passed with no dissent and no opposition.

The Government has had over one hundred and sixty bills passed, with no amendments that they did not agree to.

The Opposition has shown little interest in the activities in parliament, except for the second half of QT where they regularly seek the suspension of Standing Orders to either censure the PM or move motions against her.

This gives Mr. Abbott the chance to speak unrestrained for I believe twenty minutes. The same topic is often in the MPI that the Opposition raises after QT. The quality of questions that the Opposition ask, show little planning and are generally of poor quality. It is as if Mr. Abbott was not interested in anything but the opportunity to perform his dramatics each day. This behaviour of Mr. Abbott has not been used by previous Opposition Leaders of either colour.

The government on taking office set up as a part of it agreement with the Greens and Independents a body to create an appropriate mechanism to deal with climate change. The result of this body is proposed legalisation that has been given thumbs up by the experts in this country and overseas.

The Government and the Opposition agree on the target for lowering carbon emission. The Government and the Opposition agree that the issue needs to be addressed. What is in dispute is the way it should be done.

The Government has proposed a cap and trade scheme that will begin with a fixed price moving to a cap and trade scheme. This is in line with the original Garnaut report. The Government has rejected a carbon tax as a method of dealing with carbon emission.

Five hundred of the countries heaviest carbon emission companies will be liable for to pay for the pollutant they emit.

The money from this carbon pricing will be used to assist the greater numbers of the public and industries affected by the pollutant companies passing on the cost they incur. Money will also be used assist industry to transfer to clean energy.

The Opposition has put forwarded what they call Direct Action. Money will be paid to selected select companies that emit carbon. The money to pay for this will come from the present taxation pool. The Opposition claims that saving can be found for this as well as rescinding the miners levy among other Labor schemes they also intend to rescind. The Opposition will also from this same pool of money, pay for the extensive planting of trees and soil sequestration.

There is little or no support for Direct Action from economists or scientists, here or overseas. It is said that the Opposition would have to plant enough trees that would cover Tasmania three times.

Soil sequestration is still in the research stage and what it will cost, if feasible is unknown. The Opposition as far as I can make out is supporting coal far into the future. The scientific basis for being able to burn coal cleanly is also unknown.

The Opposition leader has been unable to name one expert to support his scheme.

There appears still to be agreement in the community that carbon emission needs to be addressed. Both the Government and the Opposition is in agreement on this point.

It appears if we listen to what the public is saying, they will not support the PM as she lied. They are saying if what we read is to believe, they will not even listen to the PM. The problem to them is that the PM promised not to bring in a Carbon Tax. The PM has not proposed a carbon tax. The PM is proposing a cap and trade like scheme.

I have not read in the media of anyone who support Direct Action.

The confusion I have is that people want carbon emission addressed. They do not support the Opposition scheme. They are refusing to listen to the PM. The scheme the PM is proposing is being given credit by experts, here and overseas.

To add to the confusion is the misinformation that is being spread with very few in the media challenging what amount to lies.

It is true that there has not been universal agreement on a carbon pricing mechanism. It is also true that the rest of the world has agreed to lower their emissions. It is also true that most countries are taking steps to bring down emissions. Many countries, including numerous states in the USA already have similar schemes. What is true that there is no universal agreement to any particular scheme.

It is false that we are leading the world. I believe we are in about the middle. Some are doing more, some are doing less.

Mr. Bolt’s argument that no scheme will bring down the temperature is true. The problem is with Mr. Bolt’s assertion, is we are not attempting to bring down the temperature, as that is impossible to do.

Once the carbon and other pollutants are in the atmosphere, they are there for hundreds of years. What we are attempting to do, is to prevent increasing more carbon and other pollutants being released into the atmosphere. It is important that we act quickly. The later we leave it, the harder it will be on the economy and on the people.

The Opposition is saying that it is planned for coal powered electricity plants to only supply ten per cent of electricity. What he is glossing over, that this is to occur in 2050, nearly forty years away. I am sure most of the coal powered plants will be long redundant by that time and the miners employed in much cleaner and safer jobs.

There is also the possibility that the way to burn coal clean might be found. Today there are already being built, aluminium mills that use more than half the power of today mills, do not produce the same pollutants, and are cheaper to build and run. I am sure these will quickly replace the present aluminium foundries, whether we bring in carbon pricing mechanism or not. What the Opposition ignores that technology is changing every day. He is presenting a future where no change has occurred.

Coles are looking at putting what they call night blinds into their shops and turning off the lights while closed. I suggest they might save more power by ditching the acres of open refrigeration they have. The alternative is to store the frozen goods is freezer or cool rooms. They can limit the number of display units, which I believe use the power and pay people to top them up as needed. Maybe we need to move away from the giant shopping centres that require mass amounts of lighting and air-conditioning. That is also going to happen without a price on carbon as we move to the net to do our shopping. Maybe our groceries will be a little cheaper.

The only conclusion I can reach in regard of Australian politics today is:-

Australians are willing to dump on the government and the country because one alleged lie.

Australians are willing not to listen to the PM.

Australians are willing to take the Opposition on trust, in spite of him having very little to offer.

They are willing to take on trust, the Opposition magic pudding economics, or maybe the Opposition has been given powers similar to the loaves and fishes miracle. It is obviously he has the power to extend money further than anyone else on this earth.

Australians are not interested in the cuts that the Opposition would have to make to put their plans into operation.

Australians do not care about policy. They are willing to accept pragmatism against policy, whether it is good for the country or not.

They are willing to put their personal dislike of the PM above the policies that are being proposed.

Australians do not care what the Opposition Leader is proposing. They are willing to cut off their nose to spite their face.

To conclude, I do not understand why people are willing to put their own future at stake because they believe their sensibilities have been injured. Have Australians become too lazy or disinterested, that they refuse to take the time or effort to listen for themselves and accept unquestioning much of what is written and said in the media.

223 comments on “I am confused, I do not understand

  1. Min, I might suggest you’re not alone in the ‘I’m confused, I don’t understand,’ this is a case of all roads leading to Rome, but no one agreeing on the spelling of the word Rome… simply appalling by all standards. Disappointing by so many others!

  2. Pingback: I am confused, I do not understand (via Café Whispers) « Signe Westerberg for Liverpool

  3. ‘Catching up’ may be confused or puzzled about why on earth

    “Australians are willing to dump on the government and the country because of one alleged lie.

    Australians are willing not to listen to the PM.

    Australians are willing to take the Leader of the Opposition on trust, in spite of him having very little to offer.”

    As are so many of us who read her post here and those of other similarly thoughtful bloggers all over the country.. But she certainly isn’t confused in her assessment of the current realities of Australian politics and the achievements of our Prime Minister with this hung parliament to date. .

    She is quite right that no serious economist or climate change scientist supports Tony Abbott who seems to have mesmirised the public with his great big scare campaign with the help of the media repeating his slogans over and over. We’re brain washed. Let’s hope a lot more people come to their senses and and start to see that our country is as lucky as Catching up has described.

    Wake up, Austalia!

  4. As the Rupert Murdoch of this blog, I apologize to anyone who has been offended by any comments on this thread. The buck stops with me.

    So does the bill. Name your drink.

    In anticipation I’ll search the cellar for some 2004 Wynns Coonawarra Cab Sav.

  5. Delete your comment ToM..well it’s tempting.

    ToM, you read the boss’s call. You are more than welcome to comment on Catching up’s topic however.

  6. CU, Abbott’s so-called Direct Action is clearly Noddy Land. Abbott cannot even tell you how many trees, where these will be planted and how they will be watered – that is, Abbott cannot even get his head around the practicalities of the matter much less explain the science of his plan.

    And where is this Green Army going to come from? The unemployed as a Work for the Dole scheme? It isn’t as easy as this as people need to be deployed, housed, clothed and trained.

    Abbott has not-a-clue – the few ideas that he does have, he does not have a clue about to put these into action.

  7. Champers for me, if Rupert’s paying, But sure, Miglo, the Wynn’s will be great.. I’m going past the bottle shop on my walk in a little while and I’ll give that one a go this evening and think of you all!

    Meanwhile this is for Catching up, with congratulations for her very timely and relevant post. . I’ve always read and thought about whatever she has to say. I bet she’s a straight talker out there in the real world too. .We need a lot more questions asked about how and why Aussies have had their heads done in lately, but I think they’re beginning to understand what it’s all about.

    Once proud strong Aussies are crying poor,
    They’re confused, worried, don’t know what for.
    Tony Abbott says the reason why
    Is that Julia Gillard told a lie.

    He’s determined they should know the facts
    About her proposal for a carbon tax.
    When they know the truth they’re bound to pan it
    And opt for his own scheme to save the planet.

    So he’s travelling here and appearing there
    Warning everyone of the great big scare
    Julia Gillard’s raised about pollution
    As subterfuge for a social revolution.

    People should beware the views of economists
    Who are just a bunch of pinko optimists.
    Nor should they put too much reliance
    On so called experts in climate science.

    Soon the mines will close and the shops will shut
    It will even affect the Pizza Hut.
    No more takeaways and no more lattes
    No more chokkies or fois gras pates.

    So much hardship for the diligent
    To make life easy for the indigent!
    She’ll rob citizens with aspirations
    To give to those in lowly occupations.

    That’s why Abbott will give this tax the knife.
    On that he’s gambling his political life.
    This means if Gillard wins he’ll lose his job
    Then he too would have real cause to sob.

    Why can’t someone tell him, “No worries mate!
    Cheer up! Look at our employment rate!
    Those jobs you’ve shown on tele you can do,
    They’ll attract an offer, just right for you.”

    “We’ve watched you mix cement and dish out shit,
    Demonstrating to us you’re so bloody fit.
    For a guy like you it’ll be a doddle
    To get casual work as an art school model.”

    But this is a man whom nothing daunts.
    Anger, strife and tears all meet his wants.
    He needs chaos, riots, even a bullet dodged.
    It’s all her fault! How dare she have what should be his – The Lodge.

  8. Hi, I am catching up on last weeks news, as I have been baby sitting for my grand daughter and watching the TV goes by the wayside. My granddaughter has not caught up to having a set top box and the channels are limited.

    I have finished watching last Monday’s QandA.

    The reception the PM got and the way she answered questions was more positive than negative. Some faces in the audience where a little stony but no one was rude. The twitters during the show were very much on the positive side.

    The question I ask, wherever the PM goes, except for a few rude people appears to be positive.

    Why is the PM having such negative polls?

    I am aware some of the questions asked in some polls are questionable. Some of the sample numbers are small.

    The fact that some goals are less than honest, does not explain the PM and the Government low numbers.

    As far as I am concern, a poll only says how popular or unpopular you are. They do not say why one is popular or unpopular. They do not say who is right or wrong. They do not say if anyone is right or wrong.

    What has the PM done to earn the angst she comes up against.

  9. Brilliant pome Patricia. I agree, basically Abbott considers that ‘fate’ made a wrong call. TUFF, get over it. I was pleased to hear the PM laugh it all off today by saying the public gets to choose at the next election. I very much doubt that either Abbott or the MSM will be able to sustain the negativity – hence Abbott’s somewhat panicked response about ‘demanding’ a new election.

  10. Patricia, glad to see you back. I enjoyed your poem, thanks.

    Have you noticed that when Mr. Abbott does a photo op, people are kept or remain a distance from him. He does not appear to interact with them.

    Maybe they are afraid when he takes a bite or should I say gulp of the food he always seems to have in his hand it will be scattered all over them.

    His mother obviously did not take the time to teach him the Etiquette of eating. I have not noticed that he is endowed with manners in general. That happens when you are an only son with three sisters.

  11. “A new study has found that false information will still have an effect even when people understand that the false information is truly false. Tim Brunero spoke to Prof. Ullrich Ecker from University of Western Australia about new research that shows “the continued influence” effect of misinformation, even if that original information is shown to be wrong. Tim began with the hypothetical question of whether he’d be trusted after being acquitted of a crime.”

    http://radioadelaidebreakfast.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/mud-does-stick-interview-with-prof-ullrich-ecker-university-of-western-australia/

    Sadly there is a lot of truth in this study. Mud does stick.

  12. Great post, CU.

    Great to see you again patriciawa. Fantastic pome, as usual. Although I think seeing him pose naked would scar anyone let alone art students for life. lol!

    Migs, have you got a case of the stuff? 😆

    Abbott cannot even tell you how many trees…..

    Min, I dispute that he knows what a tree is.

  13. Now this is confusing: In 1983 the FBI told the courts that release of the John Lennon files “can reasonably be expected to inter alia: lead to foreign diplomatic, economic and military retaliation against the United States.” The FBI had withheld the files on the grounds that they contained “national security information provided by a foreign government under an explicit promise of confidentiality.” Who was really behind John Lennon’s Murder?

  14. Cu, you’re right about those photo and video shots of Abbott in varying sites. So many of them are staged and the real workers are often hanging around watching, or being used as extras with him centre stage. Once the shot is taken the shovel gets handed back and Abbott’s out of there. Did you notice all those miners when he was doing his big spiel about them all losing their jobs and the mines closing once the great big bogey carbon tax was in? They were standing back against the walls with arms folded watching him while he gabbed on with the mike for the journos and cameramen. No applause at all, not even one ‘onyer mate’, and you can bet if there had been we’d have seen it on the news.

    There seems to be a wind of change running through the ABC, well a breeze anyway. Lots of footage of the PM looking lovely and sounding strong on most news programs this evening. Did anyone hear Stephen Long on pm this evening, very clearly contradicting a lot of Abbott’s scare tactic statements about mines closing etc? 7.30 was fairly even handed too. Stephen Conroy had a lot of air time on radio and his am highlights were repeated again this evening. Paul Howes was given a good hearing on Lateline and he didn’t fall for any of Ali Moore’s cunning ploys.

  15. It’s OK, yabots as confused as the rest of us

    Mr Abbott questioned the logic of his own commitment to reduce greenhouse emissions by 5 per cent by 2020 as he was taking aim at Labor’s carbon tax, which shares the same goal.

    ”The other crazy thing about this is that at the same time that our country is proposing to reduce its emissions by 5 per cent, just 5 per cent, the Chinese are proposing to increase their emissions by 500 per cent,” he told a group of pensioners.

    Wonder just how sincere his da plan is then??

  16. Tom, it would last about 5 minutes once in government. What an absolute load of codswaddle!!!! The man couldn’t lie straight in bed!!!

    In what could represent a major boost to the global carbon market, China’s official state news agency yesterday reported that the country’s government is poised to introduce a carbon trading pilot scheme as part of a package of measures designed to curb emissions from energy-intensive industries.

    http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2094638/report-china-launch-carbon-trading-trial

  17. Abbott is so bloody awful..does he have one single area where his knowledge of the topic is even half-way passable.

  18. ‘does he have one single area where his knowledge of the topic is even half-way passable.’

    Women doing ironing?

    Bugger, he got that wrong too didn’t he

    And he is our preferred PM. Bruce wept 😦

  19. In ordinary circumstances, promising to spend $3.2 billion on a “direct action” carbon reduction policy you regard as a futile gesture, would be an embarrassment. But not now. The Government has suffered the worst poll slump on record, and with Mr Abbott regarded as the preferred PM, the pressure is simply not on him.

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/we-are-carbon-crazy-abbott/story-e6frea6u-1226097200970

    I guess this is where the unhinging, followed on closely by the Sideshiw, has got us 😦

    Of course, the media will blame the pollies, the scientists, or even the public. It would never be them

  20. Tom, fear not..by the next sitting of Parliament which is 16th August Abbott will not be of much interest as the focus will all be on the workings of the new parliament and the Greens. Mind you, it means that we may have to suffer through another 3 weeks of Tony Abbott. 😦

  21. Does that mean we won’t have to listening to 20 minutes of negabore before PlaySchool anymore

    Of topic, but do ya reckon PlaySchool is upset it has been usurped by QT, which appears to have some of the most spoilt brats I have ever witnessed in any pre school

  22. PlaySchool is full of left wing radicals who talk about things such as sharing your toys and planting trees..I’m surprised that it’s still allowed on the ABC.

  23. I agree with everything here from Patricia WA at 2.07 on. Abbott has few plans & less intention to do anything about the climate issue. It’s a ragbag of halfhearted & contradictory, vague ideas that don’t add up & aren’t required to by a variously hostile & apathetic media. Gillard’s carbon plan wasn’t hours old before the first breathless “this is how YOU could conceivably lose!!!!” opinon pieces were being disseminated. Has the arse end of the MSM (or any other end for that matter) ever once tried to do all the sums & work out exactly where YOU will be if Abbott’s ideas come to pass? Various graphs, etc, appear & academics commentate & are immediately dismissed by Abbott & that’s the end of them.
    As part of its campaign to get Abbott elected, or at least stand by & watch it happen, the media is destroying the idea of respect in this country. I don’t mean the “things aren’t what they were in my day” rabbitings of a grumpy old man, but the respect for knowledge & expertise. Treasury, Mainstream Science, the IMF et al dismissed as required.
    And Abbott continues to get away with it. Who was it he dismissed the other day? I can’t remember off hand because he dismisses so many- saying their opinions don’t count, the only authority in Australia is the people- something like that. The person who’s spoken favourably of “Guided Democracy”- not sure what that is, but it don’t sound good to me- who after the 2010 election expressed his displeasure with the result & suggested we go back & get it right, who a couple of weeks ago demanded a plebiscite to give the people their say, a say he admitted he’d ignore if he didn’t like it. He holds the people in complete contempt & they don’t see it.
    A lot of Abbott’s inconsistencies are admittedly pointed out-once- but are then forgotten. As opposed to the loving dedication the media applies to the case it builds against the ALP.
    Written on a gloomy Adelaide Hills morning.

  24. Yes CU, if only the media would get off Julia’s back. They should stop people from saying that Julia was untruthful.

    That’s the problem with the media, they just harp on and on and on about the commitment Julia made!

    It just isn’t fair.

  25. ToM, the commitment that the PM made was to negotiate with the Independents in order to form goverment. Julia won, Tony lost.

    The Independents have been a part of the cross-party climate change committee who have come up with the carbon tax. Abbott was offered TWO places for the Libs/Nats and of course Turnbull would have been an ideal candidate, but Tony refused.

    The Independents of course knew about ‘the lie’ but chose Julia over Tony anyway.

  26. And not about the commitments Abbott’s made and broken one after another, but of course scrutiny, fairness and honesty can only ever be applied one way for some.

    An aside.Sounding like a Neil bringing up the same handful of points over and over and making the inconsequential into mountains.

  27. Let’s not forget Min that Abbot also lied about a carbon tax and ETS and has been caught out yesterday in yet another lie as to his commitment to abating carbon and his believe in climate change.

    But that’s perfectly OK because Mr No. for some unfathomable reason is allowed to pull stunt after stunt and tell lie after lie whilst accusing Gillard of conducting stunts and lying. It’s not only OK according to some but he should be rewarded for doing it, yet these people have the gall to pull up others for being hypocritical.

  28. Mobius, I caught this snippet hidden down the bottom of a SMH article…

    Meanwhile, Tony Abbott rejected yesterday allegations by a sporting goods lobbyist that his office had asked the lobby group to oppose the carbon tax in return for a sympathetic hearing on concerns regarding the GST exemption on internet purchases from overseas worth less than $1000.

    Brad Kitschke said during a visit to Mr Abbott’s office on May 31, one of Mr Abbott’s advisers ”went a bit crazy and told us that we couldn’t come to them and argue for a lower threshold unless we had a public position to oppose the carbon tax and its detrimental effects on business”.

    A spokesman for Mr Abbott said: ”At no stage was Mr Kitschke asked to give a position on one policy in return for support on another.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mayor-sends-mps-text-to-corruption-investigators-20110718-1hlou.html#ixzz1SVhPIqJ2

  29. ME, I’m not so sure the MSM are going to go on letting him get away with all his lies, exaggerations and shiftiness. That blooper of his about the 5% emissions reduction target being crazy didn’t get just passing reference. Even The Australian took him up on it.

  30. Well of course.

    If Julia had said “there will be no a carbon tax…”, she would have won the election in her own right!

    It’s only the media that are manipulating (hopelessly gullible) public sentiment against her. The more intelligent amongst us don’t fall for this. We know that Julia is decent, and only acts in our best interests.

    If only the media would stop reporting Julia’s actual words, then she’s be popular!

  31. ‘Yes CU, if only the media would get off Julia’s back. They should stop people from saying that Julia was untruthful.’

    Maybe the media should just stop making stuff up?

  32. Things like this confuse me

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/detention-toll-too-much-for-centre-guard/story-fn59niix-1226091921645

    “Five detainees have killed themselves in immigration detention centres since last September. Self-harm and threats of self-harm occur daily, and a psychologist is employed full-time by Serco to help guards deal with the fallout of acts such as lip-sewing, slashing and attempted hangings.

    The Australian has been told detainees are taking increasingly dramatic steps to draw attention to their grievances. On Christmas Island last Thursday, a detainee sewed his lips together and had a friend tie him to the compound fence in a crucifix position.”

    If Howard was in power you lot would be marching in the streets with things like this occurring. I guess you lot would say that with Labor in power they are sewing their lips together in a more humane way.

    Things were supposed to be more humane under Labor. They are actually much worse. All due to your votes at the last election.

  33. ToM, stale news. As per the other thread fellow member of Migs’ Australians for an Honest Media group Richard Denniss is at the National Press Club at the moment, to debate Lord Monckton.

  34. Neil, yes that was a sad one..a teenage suicide on Christmas Island which goes to prove the trauma that many refugees have gone through prior to their journey to Australia.

  35. Min – ”ToM, stale news.”

    Of course it is Min.

    Very stale news.

    When Howard introduced Workchoices in 2005, despite IR not being an election issue in 2004, everyone had forgotten entirely by the 2007 election.

    I know you (and Adrian) never gave it another though or comment, because it was “stale news”!

    I agree, we need to forget about duplicity. If only the media would allow us!

  36. I am trying very very hard to listen to Lord Monckton, but my brain is telling me that cleaning the loo would be more productive.

  37. The difference is yomm, workchoices turned out to be as bad as the ‘fearmongers’ said, whereas the Carbon Price will be nowhere near what that fearmongers are spreading now.

  38. I wonder whether the media will bother to quote this one from Julia. It is just so annoying when people keep repeating the actual commitments made!

    ”If I am wrong, and that group of Australians (the citizens assembly) is not persuaded of the case for change, then that should be a clear warning bell that our community has not been persuaded as deeply as required about the need for transformational change.”

    http://www.theage.com.au/federal-election/pm-pledges-peoples-assembly-on-climate-20100722-10myh.html

    It’s great that we now have the “community consensus” that Julia committed to deliver before acting!

    (apologies if this “stale news” bothers any sensitivities regarding duplicity in government)

  39. They say that those who support climate change do so in a religious way.

    Are those who support the likes of Mr. Monkton like members of a cult. Much hand clapping at everything said, no dissent. Attack everyone and every thing outside the cult. .

  40. “The difference is yomm, workchoices turned out to be as bad as the ‘fearmongers’ said,”

    I have yet to see any evidence for that. WC’s may have been the reason that unemployment fell even further to 4.3%.

    The CT will be a disaster.

  41. Neil, please explain. How will taxing the 500 top polluters while compensating and IMO over-compensating some people be ‘a disaster’.

  42. “suffer through another 3 weeks of Tony Abbott”

    Min, fear not. The only thing you will hear from Mr. Abbott is his early morning photo shot, and his 20 minutes rant at the end of QT.

    Mr. Abbott must be finding it hard to find new premises for these staged press releases. I am waiting for a worker to take him on. I am aware that you might put your job at risk if they did.

    It is even safe to listen to QT up to his daily rant and rave as he now asks very few questions. He may ask one at the beginning, so he can ask his supplementary. As for the rant, do not be afraid if you miss it. The words never change. It will be for the suspension of standing orders to move as motion against the PM or to censure her. It is sad that he is passed asking questions during QT to lead to his actions.

    There is hope that the speaker is addressing this abuse of the parliamentary procedures during the break. I hope he comes up with an answer.

  43. Tom R – ”workchoices turned out to be as bad as the ‘fearmongers’ said, whereas the Carbon Price will be nowhere near what that fearmongers are spreading now.

    Of course!

    And Julia was quite right to walk away from her (politically neutralising) citizen’s assembly!

    It was a great idea when she said it, but really, we don’t mind that she hasn’t gone anywhere near the notion.

    I suppose it’s lucky that the HATE MEDIA only concentrate on one of her broken commitments. Otherwise some would think she can’t be trusted!

    (apologies if this is going over “stale news”, but I had to make sure I’d recorded my 100% agreement with Tom R)

  44. The CT be a disaster because everything Labor has touched has turned into a disaster.

    They introduced a more “humane” refugee policy and we went from 6 people in detention to 6,000.

    They are the govt of the unintended stuff-up. Something will come up about the tax that no-one thought about to create trouble.

  45. “rad Kitschke said during a visit to Mr Abbott’s office on May 31, one of Mr Abbott’s advisers ”went a bit crazy and told us that we couldn’t come to them and argue for a lower threshold unless we had a public position to oppose the carbon tax and its detrimental effects on business”.”

    It is the same action Mr. Howard used to get Pacific countries to provide off shore accommodation for asylum seeker. Bribes and threats.

    No different from Mr. Bush’s action when he got other countries to support the war in Iraq. Brides and threats. That is normal behaviour for the right.

    The same as the pressure put on defence in the children overboard fiasco.

    Bullying is the only way they can operate.

    What amazes me that we expect them to behave in any other way.

  46. That’s the problem with the media, they just harp on and on and on about the commitment Julia made!

    It just isn’t fair.

    And hypocritical, biased and unbalanced reporting when they don’t attack the same behaviour in Smuggles,ToM. They actively endorse the lies Smuggles tells, without blinking an eye. If you excuse that, you cannot hold Gillard to a different set of standards.

    I am firmly convinced that there would be no carbon tax had she gained a clear majority; the fact is she did not. However, she never ruled out an ETS and that is probably what we would have on the table now in different circumstances.

    And of course the smuggles set could have had their two bob’s worth, but they couldn’t be bothered. That is far more dishonest and reprehensible afaic. Aren’t these clowns supposed to represent their electorates? Obviously, when it’s vital they should be doing that very thing, they can’t be bothered.

    Things were supposed to be more humane under Labor. They are actually much worse. All due to your votes at the last election.

    Strawman, Neil. While I agree that the treatment of asylum seekers is bad at present, it’s a step too far to say that things are much worse than under the Howard regime, imo.

    However, I agree with you that it doesn’t justify lower levels of the same treatment currently happening. Mind you, if we didn’t have the constant drumbeat of manufactured hysteria about asylum seekers arriving by boat, i suspect things would not be in the state they are.

    And if you believe anything the OO prints or otherwise disseminates, you should seek medical help immediately. We know what the Emperor has been up to in the UK and the US; can you honestly believe the same things aren’t happening here? If you do read or hear anything the Murdochracy prints or says, your bullshit meter should be in overdrive!

    That’s enough distraction, for the moment. I was cogitating as I was doing a boring domestic chore about the new tax-free threshold to be introduced by the government and I wonder how it’s recipients would feel if Smuggles gets elected and strips them of it.

    It’s not just to the benefit of low income workers, everyone will benefit. Sure the tax rate will increase by 3c, but that will be far outweighed by having a tax-free threshold of $18,500. As well as the compensation they will be paid from the carbon price paid by polluters. I wonder how many of these idiots have had the wit to get out the calculator and work that out.

    It’s time the government took to the streets and started shouting into their wallets. I have a suspicion government stocks would rise dramatically. The government shouldn’t have to be do it but until the msm does its job properly, there’s no alternative.

    I think if they finally get it into their thick heads that under Smuggles their pockets will be picked by the Smuggles Set and the money handed straight to the polluters, the government scheme will start looking far more attractive.

  47. “Things were supposed to be more humane under Labor. They are actually much worse. All due to your votes at the last election”

    Things are no better under this government. This government did not have the guts to put right the wrong that Mr. Howard created.

    Millions were spent unneccessary under Mr. Howard and under Labor.

    As an result, this government has to solve the problem for once and all. This can only be done by setting up regiional arrangements that make is useless for anyone to board a boat.

    I believe we will then take our numbers, which are generous as they should be from a queue that will be created witin the regional solution.

  48. ‘I suppose it’s lucky that the HATE MEDIA only concentrate on one of her broken commitments. Otherwise some would think she can’t be trusted!’

    I guess yomm missed the reading bit again

    My problem was the HADE MEDIA (yomms terminology) appear to fixate on what is not there, allowing what is there to slide by completely

  49. “It’s great that we now have the “community consensus” that Julia committed to deliver before acting!”

    The PM has not acted yet. tThere has been no leglisation put before parliament.

    She is attempting now by every method she can think of to convince the people of the worth of her proposals.

    a shame that Mr. Abbott is unable to focus on what is proposed and debate that.

  50. Neil re “The CT be a disaster because everything Labor has touched has turned into a disaster.”

    It reminds me of..if you haven’t got trouble, let’s create some.

  51. “It is the same action Mr. Howard used to get Pacific countries to provide off shore accommodation for asylum seeker. Bribes and threats.”

    Last time I heard Nauru wanted the asylum center back.

    You people are the masters at making stuff up to sooth your lying conscience.

  52. TomM. I have no problem with stale news if it is appropriate. I just believe when news has been flogged to death, it is time to let it go, unless something new pops up.

  53. Neil, believe me Nauru was just one of Tony Abbott’s Look over there moments without a single thought in his empty little head about implications – deployments – personnel required – costing.

    Can you honestly say that you want Tony Abbott as your Prime Minisiter.

  54. Didn’t notice that an independent authority selected a representative range of ordinary Australians drawn from the electoral roll using census data, formed a Citizens Assembly of 150 persons, who will have spent a year, by the time a year rolls around, developing a community of consensus, in public, for taking (legislative) action on climate change via a market-based approach by 2012, and who won’t be held ransom by a few extremists who will never be convinced, ToM?

  55. “Yes Neil, bribes and costly ones at that.”

    What would you call the $300M we are giving malaysia if the deal is signed??

    And nothing is more costly than what we have now.

    From 6 to 6,000. Suicides, lip sewing. But of course all done more humanely because the ALP is in power.

  56. Yes Jane and DIG, Julia was right to make the promise about the citizen’s assembly and to commit to building community consensus and to say she’d back off if she didn’t build community consensus.

    She was also right to walk away from each commitment.

    If only the HATE MEDIA would understand.

    The HATE MEDIA are so unreasonable when politicians implement policies that are counter to the ones they said they’d implement.

    Why oh why don’t they understand that all this (so called) duplicity is for our own good!!???

    Why oh why is the general public so stupid??!! And why oh why can’t they be as smart as us, and see that Julia is really, really nice??!!

  57. Great article and well dissected. From my limited (11 years) experience many Australians have very limited interest or concept of politics beyond blind self interest. The Libs were dispensed for Work Choices, not the GST. The ALP are not being heralded for visionary projects like the NBN, they’re being hounded to the grave over $10 a years worth of Carbon Tax.

    The one thing I have to disagree strongly on is the fantasy that we have a strong economy. I cant lay blame here – this myth is being perpetuated by the government and media but in reality most households are feeling the pinch and small business owners (and some obvious larger ones) are frankly, in dire shit. I’m just wondering hiw long it will be before someone acknowledges that a nation going gangbusters in one sector while most others are dying a slow death does not a ‘miracle economy’ make…

    Both sides of politics may be missing the point entirely – Australia is great today if you’re a miner or bank exec. Anyone else, not so much. Here is the real risk for the Government – self-interested expectation that change will resolve this problem; yet no ones really talking about it…

  58. Neil re “Last time I heard Nauru wanted the asylum center back.”

    And how would this address the problem of people smuggling?

  59. ToMM and the hate media. I think that there was something happening recently, something about Rupert Murdoch and news.com and corruption and somefin’ similar…..

  60. (Apart from the arguable that the better half of early-2010 was spent by Kevin Rudd, Wayne Swan, Ken Henry, and a host of others describing the distortion(s) that an unameliorated ‘two-speed economy’ would and will wreak on broader Australia’s long-term economic prospects without making some structural adjustments, all decried by Tony Abbott and the Big Mining Brigade at the time, I’d be inclined to agree, Damo; but who even remembers the total package (super, national savings, corporate interest rate reductions, re-jigging of the irrigation pipes, etc), and its envisioned macro effects, purpose-designed for re-balancing, as contrasted with the Great Big NO of the day? And now, it’s all narrow, trickle-down economics via a capital-intensive, labour-lite industry as recompense for the unaccounted, externalized distortion(s); at everyone else’s co-incidental expense; and the great Australian public demanded that (in)effective outcome, too! Hoorah! Or, something like that.)

  61. Neil, please listen and read. I am saying that the Howard government and the governments that who have followed have wasted unnecessary money on asylum seekers.

    I can see now why some have said you are not a person but a computer programme that sometimes gets the answer wrong.

    Neil, mainly I do not get the urge to criticise this government as there enough already are doing that.

    Neil, I will comment on what I perceive to be this governments failure when necessary.

    Neil I am saying I agree with you. This government is wasteful as was the Howard government.

    The $300 million that so worries you will be money well spent. We will not have to spend with the endless money we are now spending on those in unnecessary detention.

    The Malaysian solution will mean we will not be adding to those in detention.

    Maybe the government departments responsible for security checks on these people got their fingers out of their arses and clear these people, we would be spending a loss less.

  62. BSA Bob, Mr. Abbott has not dumped Cardinal Pelle as an expert. This in spite of Cardinal Pell’s letter to the senate being pulled apart and shown to be crap.

    It is not surprising that it was a catholic uni that invited the Lord to speak.

    Neither Pelle or the uni as far as I know, announced that the Vatican after research by their scientists support that climate change exists.

  63. “in reality most households are feeling the pinch and small business owners (and some obvious larger ones) are frankly, in dire shit. I’m just wondering hiw long it will be before someone acknowledges that a nation going gangbusters in one sector while most others are dying a slow death does not a ‘miracle economy’ make…”

    I agree with you. We should be addressing the real problems that the country are facing, not having to defend ourselves about climate change arguments that amount to little more than crap. They are a distraction that sadly has to be addressed.

    The PM made a mistake of not dealing with allegations of lying as she believed there were more important things to deal with. Look what happened there.

    We have big problems with the rate of the dollar.

    It does not help that a man who aspires to be PM does not see any thing wrong with constantly talking the economy down. A man that cannot be bothered with giving a reply to the budget. A man that allows the budget to go through with no dissent.

    A man that has kept his focus on one thing, his desire to get in power. A man who ignores what is occurring in the country and what needs to be done.

    I do hope that while this circus or sideshow is going on, the treasury, treasurer and PM are keeping their eyes on the economy.

    I do have faith that the PM is doing that, as she has a history of being able to do more than one thing at a time. I also believe the Opposition Leader does not care what disruption he causes as long as he wins.

    I do hope that there is not too many that are relying on him to do the right thing by them. They will be sadly disappointed.

  64. The duck is back!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Long live the duck!!!!!!!!!! All hail the duck!!!!!

    ToM, you keep sliding away from the issues. Why is it that you are so outraged by an alleged “lie” by Julia Gillard, but are apparently more than content not only to swallow Smuggles’ lies whole, but fail utterly to be equally outraged by his mendacity?

    Do you think his lies are less egregious? That it’s fine for him to lie without conscience to the Australian public because he’s somehow less accountable because he’s got a dick, or is the Emperor’s “chosen one” or that being PM is his birthright no matter what?

    Why is it OK for Smuggles to tell whoppers constantly and renege on undertakings announced hours before, when this is a clear indication of the way he’ll perform if, God forbid, he ever gets his hands on the PMship?

    Ditto the msm; you’re apparently happy to swallow their dissemination of lies, innuendo and gossip as the truth, despite being contradicted by the facts, without a word of criticism. Why is that, particularly in light of recent revelations about the machinations of the Empire?

  65. That’s 110% correct Jane.

    I’m a simple and unquestioning character, so I realise I’ve fallen for the shocking anti government lying spin from our HATE MEDIA! Unlike you.

    If only everyone was smart enough to see through their agenda.

    And you’re right too, when you want the (unimplemented) policies of the opposition to be scrutinised as if they were being foisted on us.

    Luckily for us, it is only the government policies that are actually being foisted on us, so what right have we to complain??!!

    Julia was right when she said she would build community consensus, and she’s even more right now that she isn’t!

  66. “The $300 million that so worries you will be money well spent. We will not have to spend with the endless money we are now spending on those in unnecessary detention. ”

    That is just wishful thinking. The people smugglers will always outsmart the ALP. I find it strange that you call it a bribe when Howard started nauru but money well spent when ALP bribes Malaysia

    And yes I would prefer Abbott as PM. he could not be as bad as the current PM.

  67. Neil, so you actually in real life really and truly want Tony Abbott to be Prime Minister of Australia.

    Don’t you mean that the people smugglers will always outsmart the Navy…..

  68. ToM re “you want the (unimplemented) policies of the opposition to be scrutinised”. Shucks no..wouldn’t that be a shock to the system for Abbott’s policies or rather lack thereof to be scrutinised.

    With Tony it’s all a matter of faith…mind you Tony hasn’t actually got around to saying how he will do it better. We all wait in breathless anticipation.

  69. No Min.

    JULIA GILLARD: Consensus on this issue should not depend solely on a fragile agreement between political parties. Adopting a market based mechanism to price carbon will transform the way we live and the way we work.

    Such a major change cannot be made and unmade on the oscillations of the political pendulum

    http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s2962183.htm

    If only Julia had been able to keep to her commitments. It is just so very, very unfair that the HATE MEDIA keeps reminding people that she doesn’t do what she said she would do.

    The government should have laws against that kind of biased HATE MEDIA reporting!

  70. Gawd..it’s that tugging of forelocks thing “if only Julia had been able to keep to her commitments”.

    As in being able to form a minority government – as in getting I believe it is 150 bills passed – as in cross-party committees – as in being able to successfully negotiate.

    I dare say that the military is about to launch a coup any tick of the clock.

  71. (That is a lie! Abbott does not say that he will do it better! As an habitual undercutter, of the pragmatic and not at all ideological sort, Tony only ever says that he will do whatever it is that Labor says it will do just as well as Labor, and always at lesser cost. While not explaining the mechanics of either of those propositions with any specificity, other than to say that he will be throwing little-explained ‘savings’ from general revenues at extant leading market failures, after some largely-unexplained committee is to-be-purpose-fabricated to better identify which of those market failures is sufficiently outstanding to be considered a worthy recipient of that taxpayer-funded largesse. And that reductio, arguably, is very near-truth about Abbott’s one-and-only template policy; and, perhaps, why some critical reviewers have recently suggested that the Coalition National Policy Development Committee effectively has been ‘defunct’ for years; not that fragmentary, poorly-costed, Abbott-led brainfarts aren’t a sound substitute for positive policies developments.)

  72. Yes TomM the media is fair and balanced. If the Crap Fits…

    Whilst accusing others of not being balanced how about taking off your Liberal supplied blinkers, rose coloured wingnut glasses and open your one eye and see the media for what it really is and is doing.

    That you want the lying and deceitful Abbott in power at the behest of the MSM and big business interests, whose bidding he will undertake as their crackbrained puppet is very worrying in that you are so willing to see democracy so terribly trashed purely because of your unreasonable and over the top hate of Labor.

  73. Apparently, yabots direct inaction plan will be fully funded from th budget.

    You know, that thing that the libs screamed they would stop everything from going through in the first half of the year, except, when push came to shove, they were unable to find any money.

  74. Best comment I heard today from the press club

    Dr Richard Denniss “I’ve never seen the immunisation skeptics here at the press club”

    (There might be better ones, but that one stuck in my head)

  75. “As in being able to form a minority government ”

    Some might be surprised but even Mr. Howard made a point of saying PM Gillard is a legitimate PM.

  76. I got the chance to view my opinion on a survey hosted by Roy Morgan Research.

    I enjoyed putting the Lord on the red end of what they call a reactor. Listen to the video and move the indicator between negative and positive. A little like the worm.

    It will interesting to see the results.

    The only downside was that I had to watch a second time. The Lord did not sound anymore credible

  77. For a guest in the country, the Lord sure has a lot to say. I wonder if he realises that he and is elk, including Mr. And are putting the economy of this country at risk.

    Since when have we encouraged strangers to tell us who our PM should be.

    They are promising political instability for the next few years.

    To all. please be ensured that the debt this country has can easily be managed.

    There is no debt that places us at sovereign risk.

    Please, if you can afford it, is safe to spend.

    “But he saved his sharpest advice for Prime Minister Julia Gillard’s Government, claiming that Australia overseas was now considered a sovereign risk – that it would default on its debts.”

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/lord-christopher-monckton-and-dr-richard-denniss-address-national-press-club/story-e6frfkvr-1226097675186#ixzz1SXasOlUG

  78. Damo at 2.54pm

    “The one thing I have to disagree strongly on is the fantasy that we have a strong economy ”

    Agreed, aggregate demand is down to a level where even the inflation-spooked RBA is backing away from a rate increase. And (for what it’s worth) the in-house economist at Westpac has been wheeled out into the sun to predict falling cash rates.

    Whilst we might rejoice at unemployment numbers sub 5% just what does that mean ?

    One is deemed to be employed if you worked for one hour in the last week. The official unemployment number does not include those of working age who are discouraged (of which I suspect there are many)

    Underemployment, that is people notionally employed (under the ILO rules) but who want/need more work is around 12%. That’s a lot of people, a lot of households, who are “missing out”. We aren’t all beneficiaries of the mining boom.

    It’s certainly not a good time for Swan to be talking of balancing the budget, or god forbid, going for a surplus. Will that “surplus” promise come to haunt Swan like Julia’s equally unwise no-CT promise ?

    There is undoubtedly a sour mood out there, and I suspect Julia’s difficulties are not un-related.

  79. “For a guest in the country, the Lord sure has a lot to say. I wonder if he realises that he and is elk…”

    CU, did you mean, like, silly moo-se ?

    A happy typo I suspect 🙂

  80. I do not agree that the PM is inept, but I do believe she is portrayed as such.

    Are we in “Alice in Wonderland”.

    If we have sunk down the rabbit hole as Alice did, it is possible that we will wake up, from what can only be described as a nightmare.

    “….What’s crazy about the carbon price debate, of course, is the sheer irrationality of it, a product of Labor’s staggering ineptitude, the Prime Minister’s diminished, and still diminishing, credibility, the Coalition’s crass opportunism, and the partisanship of News Ltd outlets.

    The carbon pricing debate is being conducted in a strange world in which fiction is preferred over fact, clear reasoning is rejected in favour of hysteria, self-interest is paraded as objectivity, clowns are treated as experts (hello Monckton at the Press Club right now) and the long-term interests of the nation are ignored in favour of pandering to lowest common denominator politics.

    Crazy is dead right.

    http://media.crikey.com.au/dm/newsletter/dailymail_9ef3a2dce0cab7ea8c19b0313213b01d.html

  81. MJ, I believe I meant ilk. Though a moose is not far off the mark.

    It was not a typo, I looked at it, it did not seem right but I left it spelt wrong.

  82. MJ, I believe as country can have a strong economy but many can still be doing it hard.

    That is what is occurring now. The wealth of the country is not being distributed fairly.

    The first thing I would like to see is the proposed mining tax/levy or whatever it is be revisited.

    The minerals are supposed to belong to the crown or to the people. The windfall profits belong to the people as much as any company that digs them out of the ground.

    I am not convinced that people are as badly off as they perceived to be.

    I do have concerns of the over 40% of workers on casual or temporary employment.

    I also feel sorry for those faced with high rents.

    I cannot see how they can be travelling well.

    Yes some things are more expensive but just as many are cheaper.

    I am a single pensioner that own my own home.

  83. CU, I was just thinking. What exactly is it that people want. It seems that the most wealthy are the same ones who as BJ stated are the whingers. Not content with material things in life they want more and more and more. Yet Australia has a very low rate of philanthropy – that the wealthiest in our society are the least likely to donate to charity.

  84. “Today there are already being built, aluminium mills that use more than half the power of today mills, do not produce the same pollutants, and are cheaper to build and run.”

    The alumiinium smelting industry is always being trotted out as a delicate flower that we mustn’t offend.

    Sharon Beder, in her book “Power Play” said aluminium smelting took something like 50% of the electicity generated on the East Coast of Australia. That’s 15% of all electricity generated.

    She also wrote that we could profitably abandon smelting (and the subsidies), pay everyone currently employed $80,000 per annum, and still be in front. That was a few years ago, so make appropriate adjustments.

    Putting a price on carbon might accelerate the move to those more efficient mills CU mentioned.

  85. “The windfall profits belong to the people as much as any company that digs them out of the ground.”

    Yes. And when Howard/Costello were in power all the money from the mining boom was saved. We got an extra $25B from the boom from 2004-2007 and Costello saved it all.

    Now with the mining boom bigger than ever how much is Swan saving???

    Wayne Swan has spent the lot and is running $50B budget deficits.

  86. “OMG what a bunch of whingers. You poor little lambs doing it tough.”

    I guess if you’re posting from Ireland, Greece, Spain, or for that matter anywhere outside the wide brown land, you could say that, BJ.

    Being unemployed anywhere however is not much fun.

    It is a damning waste of the nation’s most valuable resource.

    And once lost, it is lost for good. It’s ground you can’t make up.

  87. Neil, give up. The mining industry is not paying their share of the taxes now or in the past.

    The howard government left everything in a run down position.

    Mr. Howard and Costello did not have a world wide economy collapse to deal with.

    Neil, recycled argument with nothing new to add.

  88. Neil. what did Mr. Costello save the money for?

    Maybe it was saved to be used if things turned bad. Now did not Mr. Swan use the saved money to keep the economy going in bad times.

    Is not this government now looking at once again saving for the future.

    The danger is that they will try and do this too quick and take money out of the economy that the country needs today.

    Saving is good but sometimes it is prudent to spend. Saving is NOT a virtue in itself.

  89. “Yes. And when Howard/Costello were in power all the money from the mining boom was saved. We got an extra $25B from the boom from 2004-2007 and Costello saved it all.”

    Can you tell us where all that money is saved Neil ?

  90. Neil, I attended a lecture given by Chris Richardsom of Access Economics. He told the audience that in Howard’s last four years of office he earned an extra $29B in company tax from the mining boom alone. What did he do with that money? He used it to buy votes. Richardson was very critical of this, especially given that the GFC had just hit and there was thus a real need for that money.

    Now before you respond with your typical comment that Richardson is an idiot, please be reminded that Costello was also critical of Howard’s compulsive spending habits. It’s mentioned in Costello’s book. I’m sure you’ve read it.

  91. “Can you tell us where all that money is saved Neil ?”

    Last three Costello budget surpluses were $16, $17 and $20B. That is $53B saved in the last three years.

    This money was used to pay off Federal govt debt and placed into several different funds.

    PS Chris Richardson is an idiot.

  92. We are not the only ones confused it seems

    It’s bewildering, then, that the arguments of all four lobbies – pokies, mining, tobacco, and polluters – have been accepted by media outlets, and therefore by a lot of people. Clearly they are the arguments of those with the greatest interest in nothing changing. Consider the structure: “You can’t let your representatives do this thing that will cost us money, because somehow it will have dire consequences for you, personally.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2800654.html

    One wonders if it is accepted by the media outlets because they also have the greatest interest in nothing changing?

    btw, I am loving Geoff Lemon’s columns, although, I do like the uncensored ones on his site much better 😉

  93. “What federal debt?”

    I am not sure what your question is. Federal govt debt was paid off I believe in 2006 some time. Further budget surpluses were placed into various funds.

  94. Neil, at 9:27 pm you asked:

    “What federal debt?”

    I am not sure what your question is. Federal govt debt was paid off I believe in 2006 some time. Further budget surpluses were placed into various funds.

    At 9:05 pm you said:

    This money was used to pay off Federal govt debt and placed into several different funds.

    You’ve managed to go mad in a mere 22 minutes.

  95. “This money was used to pay off Federal govt debt and placed into several different funds.”

    Government debt is private sector wealth.

    The Costello surpluses were mirrored by increasing private sector indebtedness, now in the process of being wound back (hence the fall in aggregate demand).

    A lot of people think it might’ve been more helpful if Howard/Costello had invested those surpluses in infrastructure, or education, or health.

    Even after the government paid off the debt, they continued to issue “debt”.

    Funny that.

    Neil, when a country runs current account deficits and the private sector is in the habit of saving, the government has to run deficits to maintain demand.

    The government is not like a household.

    See Macro 101/National Accounts/Sectoral Balances.

  96. “Is not this government now looking at once again saving for the future.

    The danger is that they will try and do this too quick and take money out of the economy that the country needs today.

    Saving is good but sometimes it is prudent to spend. Saving is NOT a virtue in itself”

    CU, you nailed it.

    Keynes talked about the paradox of thrift.

  97. “You’ve managed to go mad in a mere 22 minutes.”

    Still do not understand your point.

    “A lot of people think it might’ve been more helpful if Howard/Costello had invested those surpluses in infrastructure, or education, or health.”

    I think they were. Costello started HEEF. He put $7B from the last surplus budget into it. Interest only was allowed to be spent on University infrastructure. labor changed the name to EIF and have spent half the capital. There were other funds set up as well.

    Nothing wrong with paying off debt. It creates business confidence. Also it saves on interest payments.

  98. “Nothing wrong with paying off debt. It creates business confidence. Also it saves on interest payments.”

    The issuing of debt is actually unnecessary. It is a mere convention, a leftover from the old days of a fixed convertible currency.

    Deficit spending however is actually a boost to business confidence…we could do with a bit right now. Whether the government issues debt is another issue.

    If debt was a drag on business confidence, why did Costello continue to issue bonds after the so-called government debt was paid off ?

    Ricardian Equivalence (where your ideas come from ?) has no empirical basis.

    The problem with “wealth funds” is that the money, rather than being spent on the things we need right now finishes up in the portfolios of managers who punt it on the stock market or funny financial products.

  99. Miglo. please do not do that.

    It is Neil that has the problem. He finds it hard when people tell him his throw away lines have no meaning.

    Neil does not understand that a lot of what the Howard claimed credit for was smoke and mirrors. Mr. Howard was good at this as he was at divide and rule.

    I have no problem with what Neil thinks of the Howard government, that is his business.

    I just wish he would take some time to find out what the PM and her government does and says, not rely on what others believe they say.

    If he and others done that, they might get a pleasant surprise and not be so frighten of the future.

  100. “If debt was a drag on business confidence, why did Costello continue to issue bonds after the so-called government debt was paid off ?”

    Don’t know. I am sure he had a good reason.

    Well we have just produced a $50B deficit. This should REALLY boost business confidence according to you.

    And talking about spending money to buy votes, Labor raided various funds started by Costello and spent the money for short term political gain.

    The ALP are a bunch of mongrels

  101. Neil, when the USA, Italy and Greece can’t pay their debts and the shockwaves are felt across the world, I’m sure you’ll blame that on the Gillard Govt too.

    Now back to banging head against the wall in anticipation of a stupid response.

  102. Neil is getting angry. It won’t be long before he retires for a while. He will be back though to continue the same argument, he hopes with different people.

  103. Re “Don’t know. I am sure he (Costello) had a good reason.” Migs, may I join you in the banging head against the wall exercise?

  104. Cu, I thought I’d take a visit to Gutter Trash where it was hoped I’d get away from him for a while. Nope; he’s waffling on over there too.

  105. Yes Adrian, remember the moral high ground you used to take?

    Your comments are very entertaining these days. Do you ever review your old comments for a prompt on what the ethics you used to advocate?

  106. CU, ToM was talking to Adrian/Mobius..at least I think he was. Nothing wrong with either of their ethics though. 🙂

  107. Min, thanks for clearing that up. I thought that was the case.

    Before I replied, I went back through the comments looking for Mobius, When I did not find him, I thought I was wrong and he meant Migs.

    I did not go back far enough.

  108. Yes, Adrian used to be such a powerful and articulate advocate of integrity in government. His posts are hilarious these days. It’s all “Look over there!! That lot are even worse!!”

    Confusing Adrian with Miglo is defamatory! Miglo should be outraged as he’s honest!

  109. And you’re right too, when you want the (unimplemented) policies of the opposition to be scrutinised as if they were being foisted on us.

    And I’m right that you keep avoiding my question. Why does the media not scrutinise the sh!t Smuggles continually dribbles? He could be the next PM, he says he MUST be the next PM, so his policies could well be foisted on us. So why should his policies be exempt from scrutiny?

    And why should he be allowed to get away with lying on policy issues?
    Saying he’s only the opposition leader and can shoot his mouth off with impunity really isn’t good enough. Are you really satisfied with that sort of behaviour?

    On shucking @5.10pm, ROFLMAO! Brilliant summary of the sh!t dribbler that is the leader of the opposition!

  110. Neil

    I’ll tell you why Costello continued to issue debt when the budget was actually in surplus: his mates in the finance industry, traders, managers of funds etc begged him to do so. Their ongoing livelihoods depended on it.

    Doesn’t that make you wonder about the flimsy basis for “debt” in our flexible, floating, sovereign monetary arrangements ?

    Debt can be a troubling thing in a domestic household, but the funding of government works in an entirely different way. The government actually creates “the tax payers’ money” ex nihilo, out of nothing.

    Costello often wrongly conflated the two because it served a political agenda.

    A large chunk of the economics fraternity understand this quite well but keep nit because they know who butters their bread.

    If more folk had the time (and inclination) to delve into this stuff, politicians would find us less willing to swallow the bullshit.

  111. “Neil, I attended a lecture given by Chris Richardsom of Access Economics. He told the audience that in Howard’s last four years of office he earned an extra $29B in company tax from the mining boom alone. ”

    Do you have a link for that??

    The extra $29B that Howard/Costello earned due to the mining boom makes more sense than some numbers you see. I have often seen it published that Costello got an extra $334B from the mining boom most of which was ever spent or handed back as tax cuts.

    I never believed that $334B figure. it is why I do not trust journalists. Especially those who vote Labor. Only Labor voting journalists say that Costello got an extra $334B.

    MJ

    I know you have a belief about how govts fund things. But i find your statements hard to believe. Anyway we no longer have to worry about whether the govt should be issuing bonds since Labor needs the money to fund its reckless spendathon

  112. From Tony Windsor:

    He said as he travelled abroad, he was struck by how people in Australia were still arguing the science of climate change, while abroad the focus was on how to solve the problem.

    Exactly, here we are in backwater Australia ‘still arguing the science of climate change’ while the rest of the world is seeking solutions. I should qualify this with the fact that it is not academia which is ‘arguing’..just the media.

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/windsor-loyal-to-doomed-gillard-20110719-1hneq.html#ixzz1Sb5ZJmkw

  113. “Neil, I attended a lecture given by Chris Richardsom of Access Economics. He told the audience that in Howard’s last four years of office he earned an extra $29B in company tax from the mining boom alone. ”

    Do you have a link for that??

    How on earth can I provide a link for a lecture I attended? But perhaps you’d like to provide a link to this airy fairy stuff you posted:

    I have often seen it published that Costello got an extra $334B from the mining boom most of which was ever spent or handed back as tax cuts.

    And if it was never spent, what happened to it?

  114. Min,
    It seems to me that Mr. Windsor is one of the very few conviction politicians around. I think that I would also count Bob Brown too because they always stand by what they believe in. I think tha the PM is too but it gets very hard to tell when the media is so full of anti Gillard rhetoric.

  115. Can someone please tell me why the current government is considered doomed when there is still 2 years left.

    While the current government may lose office at the next election, to be forecasting doom 2 years prior, by the media, indicates to me the extent of the bias.

  116. Shane, I think everyone forgets that John Howard was once called Mr 14%, which he was saddled with after his popularity rating fell to that number. Naturally, his political doom was forecast. Funnily he went on to become a very popular PM.

  117. I never believed that $334B figure. it is why I do not trust journalists. Especially those who vote Labor. Only Labor voting journalists say that Costello got an extra $334B.

    So those figures never came from treasury Neil? Would you believe them if they did?

    From the 2004-05 Budget to the 2007 Pre-election Economic and Fiscal Outlook, parameter and other variations have added $391 billion to the budget surplus over the period 2004-05 to 2010-11, while new spending decisions (including income tax cuts) have reduced the surplus by $314 billion over the same period. Revenue variations contributed $334 billion to the budget surplus. Effectively, the additional revenue from the commodity boom has been spent, or provided as tax cuts

  118. It’s all “Look over there!! That lot are even worse!!”

    Bloody hell TomM that is what you have been doing for years and especially since Abbott came on the scene. You mostly only came here when Abbott stuffed up and/or was being criticised and you immediately launched into a look over there at GILLARD!!! (the greatest liar the planet has seen) and LABOR!!! (the worst government has seen).

    Nobody but nobody I know makes bigger mountains of molehills than you do and you keep flogging the petty and insignificant for all it’s worth.

    Then there is your projection, which I don’t have to give examples of as you illustrated it in your last post.

    And you say my posts are hilarious? Maybe you should read back the comedy bull crap you so often post for a good laugh.

  119. “And if it was never spent, what happened to it?”

    Sorry. Typo. But that $29B figure makes more sense than what Labor lackeys like Peter Hartcher have posted

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/fiscal-feud-20090424-ai6z.html

    “More starkly, the Treasury reported that from the 2004-05 budget to the 2007 election, the China boom and a robust economy had added $334 billion in windfall gains to the budget surplus.

    Of this, the Howard government spent, or gave away in tax cuts, $314 billion, or 94 per cent.”

    I never believed that $334B number. Fact is Costello saved $50B in his last three budgets. The mining boom was saved unlike now where Swan cannot save anything.

  120. Migs

    I agree it seems that the media are scaremongers determined to force the current government to an election. Something that should not be pressured by the media. While the opposition has the right to call for an election every day of the week I do not believe the media should be rallying the same warcry.

  121. Shane re “Can someone please tell me why the current government is considered doomed when there is still 2 years left.”

    Because Tony Abbott says that there is going to be another election any tick of the clock. PLUS the Daily Telegraph are calling for a new election, because clearly we got it wrong the first time around.

  122. Neil, what is the government’s percentage of spending of GNP average? What was Mr. Howard’s average while in power?

    Is it much greater than the Howard government, whose main effort was tax cuts that benefited the better off.

    What is this government wasting it money on? That is after the increases they have made in government services and infrastructure.

    The Howard tax cuts amounted to little more than bracket creep, came after the early years of government budget cuts in all government areas save for defence and security., transferring the costs to the public as user pays became the ideal.

    Yes towards the end of the Howard years, spending did increase but in many not much greater than the cuts they made when they came to power.

    Smoke and mirrors was a Howard speciality.

    Neil, you continue to say this government is wasteful. You never say where the waste is made.

    Some examples please.

  123. BJ, it not hard if you listen to what the PM says, instead of what others claim she says.

    It is not hard, she makes many speeches and gives many interviews.

    The Labor site gives most of the information you need to work out what he is about. I am not saying you need to believe what the PM or Labor is saying.

    You have to make up your own mind to that. You have to listen directly, not rely on what others are alleging. It will be your decision not others.

    The interviews are not the type Mr. Abbott makes. Answering a couple of questions and walking away when he does not like the questions or the questions distract from his focus message.

    The biggest fear that Mr. Abbott has that the public will begin to listen to the PM.

    That is why Mr. Abbott is running around the country in a frantic manner, attracting attention to distract from what the PM and others are saying.

    Mr. Abbott is safe as long as holds the public attention and and the public ignores the PM.

    I question the commonsense of the many that are saying they will not listen to the PM. That simply does not make sense. That is being lazy and allowing others to make decisions for them, that they should be making themselves.

    I hope I am not sounding like I am giving a lecture but it is important for us and the country’s future that we listen to both sides. There are important decisions to be made. These decisions need to be informed.

  124. “I do not believe the media should be rallying the same warcry.”

    …nor should the media give the impression that the PM is being unreasonable or has an responsibility to call an election at this time, because some do not like her or her policies.

    The media should not be giving the impression that the government is not legit or that the PM does not have as mandate to government.

    The media does not have the right to spread misinformation about what is constitutional. The media has an obligation to be honest.

    I believe it is Canadian law, that the media can only print or say what is truth. They are fined heavily if what they are putting forwarded is proven to be lies.

  125. “So those figures never came from treasury Neil? Would you believe them if they did?”

    Bacchus

    Malcolm Turnbull has an article on those figures and says they are a load of bull. But use your own common sense. I did. Those numbers are way to big to be credible. You would have seen a huge increase in revenue before Costello allegedly spent the money or handed it back as tax cuts.

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/show-us-the-money-mr-swan-its-time-to-stop-squandering-our-future-20110427-1dwvf.html

    “He contrasts this with the good old days, when “between 2004 and 2007, tax revenues were revised up by a massive $334 billion cumulatively, over the budget estimates……………Intriguingly, in October last year Treasury’s Macro-economic Group quietly revisited this issue, and released research which tells a very different story………..In fact, revenue gains from commodity exports and favourable terms of trade received during Costello’s final three budgets are calculated at about $25 billion – a far cry from Wayne Swan’s nonsense about $384 billion.”

    $384B?? I think that is a typo with 3 being transcribed as an 8. But Turnbull says Treasury original figures are nonsense.

    I am sure Treasuries Macroeconomic Group has a website.

    Chris Richardson has stated the figure was $29B similar to what Turnbull said ($25B).

    Furthermore Swan is getting more money from the boom that Costello did.

  126. Nothing ever changes does it Neil? Present something from an unbiased, credible source and all you EVER come back with is some crap written by a Lieberal hack.

    IF such a “revision” ever took place by treasury, surely you should be able to link to the original, credible source, rather than a Lieberal party source? At least then we could judge whether treasury made a mistake in their original report, or MORE LIKELY, Turnbull is comparing apples and oranges to spin a yarn to the Neil(s) one-eyed gullible…

  127. “I know you have a belief about how govts fund things. But i find your statements hard to believe.”

    Neil, you don’t find my statements about the funding of government “hard to believe”. You are being far too polite 🙂

    Actually, it’s not so much a “belief” as having taken the trouble to do a bit of reading on the subject. For me it’s a belief like 2 + 2 = 4. The literature goes back to the 1940’s.

    Unlike the practical men in Keynes’ famous quote, my understandings are increasingly being promoted by a number of academic economists, and some pretty hot-shot money guys. Warren Buffett seems to follow Modern Monetary Theory.

    Professor Quiggin recently opened a thread and invited comment on MMT. Where he himself stands remains unclear, but he seemed interested.

    And Paul Krugman recently threw his column in the NYT to a discussion of MMT. Twice actually. Last time I looked Krugman was still confused, but he’s at least acknowledged that an understanding of MMT is gathering apace.

    Professor James K Galbraith is an advocate. And of course here in Australia we have Professor Mitchell.

    Why it’s so relevant is on display right now in the drama unfolding in Washington with the fight over their deficit ceiling. We all may soon have to live with the consequences.

    From a MMT perspective, they all may as well be arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

    The deficit hysteria in Australia is a much diluted version of the poison that infects the political discourse in the US, but it is distilled from the same misunderstandings.

  128. Is the gloom and perception of doing it hard justified?

    The following article does not mention what Mr. Howard did. It does not say that the present government is wasteful and incompetent.

    It does not blame PM Gillard for all the ills in Australia and the world. Maybe the PM is too blame for Mr. Murdoch;s troubles.

    No, the article talks about how the economy is performing today.

    “There’s a suggestion there that because we don’t feel richer, we’re not spending even though we have more money. Perception can indeed be more powerful than reality.”

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/rbas-new-normal-on-interest-rates-20110719-1hmof.html

    “……………While most of us can’t see past the thicket of headlines trumpeting the latest possible disaster or hear ourselves above the political screaming match and the squeaky wheels making the most noise, the RBA focuses on a longer perspective available above the heads of tabloid media and shock jocks…….

    ………….Today’s minutes from the July board meeting are a stark lesson in seeking the bigger picture instead of jumping at the latest headline. That will bring no pleasure to those individuals, enterprises and regions doing it tougher than most, but it’s also the reality of a dynamic economy. For most of us, it should be reassuring as we continue to be promised greater wealth and higher growth…..

    ….Scare stories

    To work through some of the key differences between the RBA’s perspective and the daily scary headlines:

    While the headlines writers continued to spread panic over Greece, key central banks were already moving on with remarkable calm. At the time of the board meeting, the European Central Bank was preparing to increase interest rates and “other central banks, including in Brazil, China, India and South Korea, had tightened monetary policy further over the past month”.

    They are not the actions of central bankers anticipating GFC Mark II.

    And for all our slavish following of the (relatively) minor protests outside the Greek Parliament: “Australian credit markets continued to be relatively unaffected by the global uncertainty over the past month. Issuance by Australian banks, both secured and unsecured, had remained solid and pricing had not materially changed.”

    In any event, despite a small downward revision of its 2011 world growth forecast, the IMF’s “central forecast was still for growth to be at, or above, average in both 2011 and 2012”. Yes, downside risks had………………………..
    …And Australia’s own set of key commodities have done particularly well. The RBA minutes report that “Australia’s terms of trade for the June quarter were likely to have been the highest on record”…….

    …….Multi-speeds

    The RBA doesn’t deny that we have a multi-speed economy: “The resources sector remained strong, as did some service sectors. However, household cautiousness and the high exchange rate were having a dampening effect on a number of other sectors… Survey measures of overall business conditions and confidence showed significant differences across industries, but overall conditions remained around their long-term averages.”

    And that’s what we tend not to understand. What business is having trouble adjusting to is a return to average performance after being cosseted for a while by stimulatory fiscal and monetary policy……..

    …………………The minutes follow that sentence with the observation that there had been little growth in nominal wealth over the past year, with housing prices having softened and equity prices lower recently. “Members observed that this was in contrast to the experience of much of the past two decades.”,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

    ,,,,,The big picture hasn’t changed. More Australian businesses face challenges and we certainly hear about them, while we don’t hear so much about those doing nicely. That view from the top of Martin Place tries to encompass them all, as well as peak over the horizon at what is coming.

    That’s why interest rates aren’t being reduced. They’re not being lifted right now either – and that’s quite normal.,,,,,,

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/business/rbas-new-normal-on-interest-rates-20110719-1hmof.html

  129. Think back a couple of months, when Julia was on her way back from Japan, her backbench had become resigned to losing the next election.

    “Put us out of our misery now,” said one. “It can’t go on.”

    “Clearly it hasn’t worked,” said another. “The experiment has failed.”

    Real politics, as opposed to wishful thinking, will eventually see Yabbot in the box seat.

  130. Neil. I am going to say once again that your figures only prove what occurred at that time.

    They do not prove as you like to think so, that Mr. Costello was the world’s greatest treasurer, one who did not go onto be PM like his predecessors.

    The figures tell us what occurred at that time. The do not tell us why or how. They do not tell us if what occurred was good for the economy.

    They do not tell us what context the figures occurred in.

    Now, Neil, if I told you I saved all my last pension, you would come to the conclusion that was the right thing to do on your reckoning.

    If I told you to do so, I decided not to buy food, pay the light and the broadband bill.

    I also decide my leaky roof did not need fixing.

    Would you think I was so clever, now that I am sitting in the dark, wet, no food and my Internet in danger of being cut off, was my effort at savings so great.

    Neil. you cannot compare what governments do without taking into context the economic conditions that they operate in. Sometimes it is time to save. Sometimes it time to spend.

  131. ToM, I notice you haven’t mounted another “spirited” defence of the msm’s “right” to print or broadcast lies, innuendo and gossip as the truth.

    And then there is of course your insistence that Gillard has lied about imposing a carbon tax which you endlessly and mindlessly repeat. It’s your mantra. But you are not being truthful.

    Gillard said she would not impose a carbon tax, but that there would be a price on carbon, to be paid by the biggest polluters. She also wanted an ETS.

    So there’s no broken promise or lies from the PM at least, but Smuggles isn’t looking so hot. Hasn’t he promised not to impose a carbon tax?

    So who is this mystery figure vowing to impose a carbon tax if he gets the prize? Why it’s the all singing, all dancing liarSmuggles,who has vowed that a carbon tax will never, ever be imposed by him. I think you’d call that a lie, wouldn’t you?

    Do you still say that there should be no scrutiny of Smuggles’ “policies”?

  132. Jane, why do you prefer to tell only half the story?

    Julia said she had learnt that fundamental reforms such as a price on carbon are bound to fail unless there is community consensus. That was her commitment during the last campaign.

    So she promoted a range of promises to build community consensus.

    After the election she reneged on all those commitments as well.

    Her dishonesty goes beyond just saying there would be no carbon tax.
    ————-
    When/if Abbott forms a government that also reneges on fundamental promises, he will also deserve the opprobrium of the public. But right now, he’s just talking, he isn’t actually implementing anything.

    The government is in the process of implementing the policies it promised not to implement. That’s why it is getting plenty of scrutiny.

    It deserves everything it is getting.

  133. ToM, my English Expression teacher Miss Klemm would have loved you..an exercise in clear thinking. Now girls (it’s a Girls’ school, Canterbury High)..let’s underline the emotive language and unsubtantiated facts.

    Now by the time that we have deleted all of the aforementioned, the argument is:

    Tony Abbott deserves to be Prime Minister because……..

  134. Bacchus on July 20, 2011 at 2:10 pm

    “Present something from an unbiased, credible source and all you EVER come back with is some crap written by a Lieberal hack. ”

    I would not call Turnbull a hack. We normally post newspaper articles on this blog and rarely go back to the original source documents. I will try and find the original report.

    But we have all some common sense. I never believed that $334B as the extra revenue that Costello received in his last three years. It was way to much being a significant proportion of the total budget revenue. It made no sense to me and Turnbull calls it nonsense. There was no large increase in budget revenue.

    So Treasury says $334B extra revenue from 2004-07 and Turnbull says it was $25B. Furthermore Chris Richardson said it was $29B.

    If I was a betting man I would put my money on the $25B figure.

    Furthermore if Costello wasted the boom Swan is doing worse. he has not saved a cent and is getting more money from the boom than Costello did.

  135. Neil, “We normally post newspaper articles on this blog and rarely go back to the original source documents.”

    Whilst a newspaper article might not be cited as a primary source per se it can certainly under law be cited as a primary source. And certainly if it quotes from a primary source it can therefore be assumed to be referring to a primary source. However, if a newspaper article is commenting on a primary source then it of course can be considered only a secondary source and therefore should be cited as such.

    But of course it all depends upon the source and the verifiable citations.

  136. CU,

    Thanks for the Brisbane Times article.

    I have to say I have a few problems with the RBA.

    Back in the good-old-days an important part of its charter was to maximise employment. Nowadays, that’s been sidelined in favour of policy that actually uses unemployment as a tool against inflation.

    I actually heard Glen Stevens say a few months back that “the NAIRU was about 5%.”

    How many people outside the economics fraternity knew what he was talking about ?

    The NAIRU is the clumsy and offensive acronym for “Non-Accelerating Rate of Unemployment”, the target rate of unemployment the RBA shoots for to keep inflation under control.

    So, all your poor bastards out there looking for a job and doing it tough, don’t feel like your lives are wasted, you are helping keep prices stable for the rest of us. We are very appreciative. Thank you.

    PS. The NAIRU is also ideological bullshit. It has no empirical basis.

  137. Mangrove, one should also factor in us frugals. I never spend money unless I have to..coming from a long line of frugals.

  138. “coming from a long line of frugals.”

    We could be related Min.

    I have some frugals in my family tree, Scottish, the MacFrugals.

    They were real tight-arses I believe.

  139. “Min, you must be a bright frugal…”

    Explains Min’s stance on the big issues el gordo.

  140. Duh…el gordo, Canterbury Girls’ High in Camberwell, Melbourne, just up the road from Hawthorn. The only thing ‘selective’ about it was that you had to be a girl..and I fitted the criteria perfectly. 😀

  141. My dad was a belt maker for Hardie Trading in Footscray. I spent years thinking that dad made the sort of belts which hold up one’s trousers before I realised that it was conveyer belts.

  142. Neil. I would not call Mr. Turnbull a hack, but I would acknowledge that he has his own agenda in whatever he says. That is to show the Liberals in a good light.

    Mr. Turnbull whether it is the BNB or banking or other issues will always present what benefits his own party, except it seems when he is talking about climate change. That appears one step too far for Mr. Turnbull.

  143. “Duh…el gordo, Canterbury Girls’ High in Camberwell, Melbourne, just up the road from Hawthorn”.

    So, to the boys from Hawthorn Secondary, you were the Canterbury Tails ?

  144. CU,

    Turnbull is a real misfit in the current Coalition.

    I’m sure he’s very uncomfortable with a lot of it’s policy.

    Giving him the job of opposing the NBN was a measure of Abbott’s bastard cunning…

    But I don’t believe he’s got innate sympathies with the Labor Party as some suggest even though he might’ve toyed with the idea in his youth.

    He’s more of a Menzian Liberal, a reminder of just how far to the right the party has drifted.

  145. Mangrove, that was my impression too. Abbott told Turnbull that if he didn’t quit at the election that Turnbull would be presented with a major portfolio – so Abbott gave him the NBN – a portfolio which Abbott knew would mean that once it went through with the help of the Independents, that Turnbull would effectively be neutered.

  146. MJ, I agree 100%. If Mr. Turnbull supported Labor he would now be in the party.

    Mr. Turnbull belongs to real Liberal that have disaooeared since Mr. Howard’s day.

    Mr. Turnbull has not done an axe job on the NBN. He, like others appear to have problems talking against things that he does finds little problem with.

  147. Latest costings put Abbott’s environment policy at $12 billion pa and he says he will find all that through government waste. Yet he wants to bring in tax cuts and give lot’s more public money to business for nothing, what a laugh.

    When Abbott has to finally table detailed policies it should be the comedy event of the decade.

  148. But Mobius, according to Abbott he doesn’t have to cost anything because he isn’t in government. What was it a few months ago..I cannot quite remember what it was in relation to, but the government offered Abbott the services of Treasury to ‘help’ with his costings.

    Abbott then retorted (complete with the darting of eyes), that it was all a conspiracy.

  149. ME, he already proved that his “costings” are actually a script for a Goon Show revival.

    Yes Min,after all the faux indignation because he couldn’t have his, for want of a better word, policies costed. Then of course, the confected outrage against Treasury when the government made the offer for Treasury to cost them confidentially.

    He obviously suffers from CRAFT disease, because the next lame excuse was that Treasury was politically biased toward Labour. Inconvenient that the very same Treasury officers were obviously competent to cost the Rodent’s policies and budgets.

  150. I am watching Four Corners. Could wind farms be dangerous. It is alleged they can cause illness if you live up to ten kilometres away.

    I fail to see how, as they are just generators that are run by the wind. Electricity is transfer the way as we do from power stations now.

    We have had windmills for hundreds of years. Most have been next door to accommodation.

    Most farms have windmills near their homes to pump water from underground and dams.

    Many outback stations have generated electricity using wind power.

    The allegations are hard to believe.

    Maybe if you are a little close, the noise might be annoying, the same as the winds that blow through Central Queensland during the winter .

    The new generation of wind pylons will be closer to the ground and quieter. This should make them more appealing.

    Winds farms have the advantage that the land can still be used for agriculture.

    Maybe it is just another ruse to cause confusion. I am not confused, I do not believe it.

  151. I had an email about this, but as it only exhorted me to watch 4 corners last night, I ignored it. Another denier scenario it seems from what CU has written, sponsored by the coal industry, no doubt.

  152. The 4 Corners piece was great and revealed the underhanded negative campaign underway all being funded by right wing think tanks.

    All around the world on complaints about wind turbines, which started with they were inefficient, then moved to they were an eye sore and have now moved to they cause every illness under the sun within a ten kilometre radius, have one common factor, those doing the complaining are either getting no money for wind farms in their vicinity or they are spokespersons being paid by right wing think tanks.

    Yet another example of the underhanded and misleading campaigns being run by powerful and wealthy vested interests.

    I again ask, and a certain someone hasn’t answered this, if the deniers have the facts and science on their side why do they time after time have to resort to underhanded, deceitful and egregious campaigns to put down the science?

  153. Pip, I am not sure but the audience was passionate. They feel no one is listening.

    I wonder how all those people in Northern European countries have not woke up to the fact their wind farms are killing them.

    They claim not to be deniers.

    Could I suggest they are being stirred up by the deniers.

  154. I do know one thing, I would not use the doctor that is making all the allegations.

    I would have no faith in her. I am sure she would tell me stomach ulcers are not cause by a virus, saying you cannot trust scientists.

  155. Could I suggest they are being stirred up by the deniers.

    That was starkly illustrated in the footage from the community forum where the ex-doctor and another spokesperson, who turned out to have links to the IPA and from them to a giant gas company, where whipping up a fear frenzy and by the end of it the audience were ready to string up anyone who uttered the word green and most of them believed they suffered just about every affliction known to man and directly caused by wind turbines.

  156. ME, although I didn’t watch the program, a thought occurs. Did the afflicted suffer from their alleged afflictions before their alleged contact with wind turbines?

  157. Jane, it appears they developed the symptoms from the very first instance the turbines were turned on.

    I do feel sorry for the man thought, he lived in a valley and was surrounded by them. That is a different argument though.

    There is the empty family home. I wonder if there are any down on their luck who would be interested in some cheap rent. A little noisy but no worse than many in a built up area endure.

    I wonder why Bolt and his ilk are so upset. I think many are saying that it is extremism and hate that leads to the Norwegian tragedy. It appears that the Norwegian people themselves are saying this.

    What anger me is that Bolt and others such as Menzies House are attempting to demonise that man’s upbringing, alleging it’s was his father’s fault for separating from his mother and that he was brought up by lesbian’s whores or some rubbished story to that extent.

    They seem to be upset that it is being alleged that the right side of politics are to blame. I do not believe people are saying that. I can only say that some on the right are a tad thinned skin, can hand it out but not take it.

    I would say that the man is unhinged. His troubled mind has hooked onto the policies of the Howard government according to his manifesto. Not unlike Hitler who let a perceived slight ruin his whole life.

    It was hatred that led to that situation that manifested itself in hatred of Muslims.

    I do find it disturbing that the man gives some insight into how Howard’s policies are perceived by others overseas. Extremism can occur on both sides of the political fence.

    As for being a Christian, who has said this. He might be of not Christian but he definitely was not Muslim.

    We should take a leaf out of the Norwegians book and treat the incident as being the result of hate and challenging it with love. They do not appear To be interested in the blame game.

    The man might not be of the right, but he did attack the present Norwegian Labour Party and attempted to wipe out the next generation off the party.

    Can anyone enlighten me of the number of politicians assassinated in the USA that were not on the left of politicians.

  158. jane.

    After. But the strange thing was that those with the closest contact, that is those with wind turbines on their properties, had none of the symptoms that those outside those properties did.

    Those with symptoms only started getting them after their neighbours with wind farms starting receiving payments for the turbines on the properties.

    Towns that directly benefited from the wind farms not only prospered but celebrated them by holding regular wind festivals and the like. Towns that did not directly benefit from them set up anti-wind farm committees, usually egged on by outside vested interests, and they suddenly had a significant increase of “wind turbine related illnesses”.

    And the relationship between supposed and still unproven wind turbine illnesses and not receiving direct financial benefit from them is substantial, and is global. It seems that all you have to do to be cured of these diseases, and they are widely varied and many life threatening, is to receive money for a wind turbine that is supposedly causing the disease.

    Nice and neat, the wind turbine is both the cause and cure.

  159. ME, I am sure you have got it wrong. There is a little area not hot.

    I was under the impression that there would be extremes of temperature, which appears to be happening world wide.

    Africa does not appear to be cooling either, not when they are now having disastrous droughts every three or so years instead of ten. Today they are according to the news, suffering the worse drought in sixty years.

    Records are regularly being broken in relation to weather.

    Then ME we must be wrong, even if most of the experts are on our side.

    It must be a wonderful feeling to be the only one correct.

  160. Yes Cu apparently we are wrong and regional cooling is not just an indication of a global cooling that is to come in 50 years, but one that is just as disastrous as global warming.

    So just ignore that map of the US because obviously only regional cooling can lead to a global cooling whilst regional record heat waves are meaningless in the global context.

    (tongue in cheek) I’m interested in how Mount Shasta is increasing it’s glacial mass despite most other glaciers around the world losing mass…. oops. Mt Shasta. Maybe it’s aliens causing it. Mt Shasta.

    It must be nice to be able to cherry pick those things that support your very narrow point of view and ignore all else that is going on around the globe and the global trends as well.

  161. “It must be nice to be able to cherry pick those things that support your very narrow point of view and ignore all else that is going on around the globe and the global trends as well.”

    It must take talent to do so with a straight face and no fits of conscience.

    It is much harder when you do not have the ability to see all the facts.

    But as I have often repeated, there are none so blind than those who will not see.

  162. An interesting article is at: http://theconversation.edu.au/the-faustian-bargain-while-we-debate-the-numbers-the-planet-suffers-2512 and which comes from Professor Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, chief climate science advisor of the German Government.

    The disruption of the carbon and oxygen cycles, which act as the “lungs of the biosphere” is raising CO₂ and other greenhouse gases to levels close to that of 16 million years ago and is increasing at a rate unprecedented in geological history (with the exception of global volcanic and asteroid impact events which led to mass extinction of species).

    This extreme rate retards the ability of species to adapt to fast changing environments, threatening a mass extinction of species, not least in the oceans.

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