And in the beginning . . . there was the future

Welcome to the first day of Winter and the return of our Winter logo.  Today is also the first day of the future, and that will be the theme of this post: the future.

They say we can’t predict the future, but I’m an advocate that we can control it.  When we look back on our own past, or our country’s past or even the world’s past . . . there will be a hundred signposts that we missed that could have taken us down a better path.  But here we are, and maybe it’s our job to leave our own signposts.  The events of tomorrow can only be guided by the events of today.  If we decide to do nothing today then nothing will happen tomorrow.

Let us assume that the straight line we call time continues on its merry way, and as we follow it to see what has happened, or not happened, we’ll be able to see that much of the events in the future are not without our influence.  June 1, 2011 is a very important date in the future.  Probably the most important day, as it is the first day in our future, and every event beyond this tiny 24 hours has been shaped by it.

Shall we follow that line?  I’ve found the line here, at Future Timeline and a lot of what awaits us is unpleasant, yet clearly our doing.  Can it be undone?  Probably not, but we can control the scope of it.  Anyway, let’s get moving, there’s lots to see.

2015: Tigers are going extinct.

2020: Glacier National Park and other regions are becoming ice-free.

2035: The Arctic is becoming ice-free in Summer.

2040: Average global temperatures have risen by two degree.

2045: Major extinctions of animal and plant life.

2050: 45% of the Amazon Rainforest has been destroyed. Air quality and visibility is declining.  Bushfires have tripled in some regions.  The Dead Sea is drying up.

2060: Global mass migrations of refugees.  Flood barriers erected in New York.

2070: Average global temperatures have risen by 4 degrees.

2080: Polar bears face extinction.  One in five lizard species are extinct.  Deadly heatwaves plague Europe.  Traditional agriculture is decimated.

2095: Many of the world’s languages are not in use.  Only three will eventually remain: English, Mandarin and Spanish.

2100: Extreme drought is effecting one-third of the planet.

2190: The West Antarctic ice sheet is starting to disintegrate.  This area will later be populated by over 1 million people who settle on the exposed land surface.

2200: Artificial intelligence dominates the planet.

I’ve only hand-picked a handful of the zillions of things that await us in the future, but of those selected are they really beyond our control?  Can they be changed by whatever happens on June 1, 2011?

Yes, they can.

Welcome to the future.

195 comments on “And in the beginning . . . there was the future

  1. One of the sign posts which is clear to see is the rate of animal extinctions in our country, and this is not beyond our control provided there is political will to deal with it….and that is a problem.

    Australia one of the worst animal destroyers
    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/australia-one-of-worst-animal-destroyers-20090728-e068.html

    THE earth is experiencing its sixth great extinction and Australia, along with its Pacific neighbours, is in danger of perpetuating its record as one of the worst destroyers of animal and plant species, a study by leading environmental scientists has found.

    Based on a review of 24,000 scientific papers, the study published today in the journal Conservation Biology finds that land clearing and overlogging are among the greatest threats to land-based creatures and plants in the Oceania region.

    Since records began, Australian agriculture has changed or destroyed half the woodlands and forests of the country. More than two-thirds of the remaining forest has been degraded by logging.

  2. Migs, you’re a mathematician – we can predict the future based on the constants. I remember you explaining something to me one time it was to do with spreadsheets, alter the variable you alter the outcome.

  3. That list is all doom and I’m a little bit more optimistic than that.

    I have no doubt that some of the things, especially environmental destruction and extinctions will come to pass to a more or less extent, but I also believe mankind will, in most cases grudgingly, alleviate and may even improve many aspects of life on Earth.

    You only have to look at the advance of technologies and more importantly systems/programs that are leading to a more sustainable and less destructive future, things that are advancing at a rate more rapidly than predicted and spreading rapidly.

    That Earth will have to go through so much irrecoverable destruction because of mankind is the real shame and damnation on ours and the previous generation, and I have no doubt we will be damned in future history for it, but I believe we will leave the place better off than the mess we are capable of if we don’t change, even if it’s only partial change resentfully made with those blinded by greed protesting and denying every step of the way.

  4. One of the biggest improvements that I can envisage is that of communication – people in the past were relatively isolated or at least confined to their own small circle and were therefore immune to other ideas and opinions. We are only now seeing the beginnings of this ‘revolution’.

  5. Some time in the next 50 to 80 years there is going to be a massive increase in environmental refugees as highly populated parts of the world are inundated by rising sea level.

    Huge social and economic disruption until the inevitable “downsizing” of the human population.

    Where is the best place for my grandchildren to survive? I reckon New Zealand; lots of mutton to eat and a long and dangerous boat ride.

    PS the above scenario is my “optimistic” prediction.

  6. el gordo why do you repeat the same things you have already been shown to be wrong on?

    The last time you bought up Mt. Shasta I posted a whole bunch or links showing the volumetric levels of glacial ice around the world is in an accelerating decline even though some areas like Mt. Shasta are slowly increasing. I asked you to address this and give an explanation as to why global levels of glacial ice are declining not increasing. As is your normal way in not liking things that discredit your cherry picking little bits of data whilst ignoring the whole, you ignored my questioning and threw in another unrelated bit of cherry picked info to change tact.

    By the way for those glacial areas where there is an increase the increase in ice volume fits the climate modelling. Who would have thunk that?

  7. Funny you should mention NZ luna_lava. NZ is one of the places mentioned as being the best to be if there is a global thermonuclear war and quite a few people, mostly Americans, migrated to the very south of the South Island at the height of the Cold War. One American woman they had on Landline as she had become a successful farmer of something or other had moved there because of that reason.

    On The Beach should have more accurately been filmed in the South Island of NZ rather than Melbourne.

  8. There are three mentions of extinctions in Miglo’s list and we are a big part of the problem. Examples of man’s ignorance about caring for our planet go back to the earliest civilisations and now in the year 2011 the evidence is clear, but what are the chances of the damage being limited or stopped when a very small percentage of the world’s population make decisions in the interests of creating wealth for the few, at the expense of the environment?

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/australia-one-of-worst-animal-destroyers-20090728-e068.html

    THE earth is experiencing its sixth great extinction and Australia, along with its Pacific neighbours, is in danger of perpetuating its record as one of the worst destroyers of animal and plant species, a study by leading environmental scientists has found.

    Based on a review of 24,000 scientific papers, the study published today in the journal Conservation Biology finds that land clearing and overlogging are among the greatest threats to land-based creatures and plants in the Oceania region.

  9. While not wishing to defend el gordo but global cooling is a short term (in geological time scale) possibility if the gulf stream stops (due to glacial ice melt from Greenland). Note there is a record of this happening in the past.
    The environmental refugees will then come from both Europe and Asia.

  10. ME, el gordo is a typical Conservative, they don’t give a stuff about the future generations or the betterment of the earth, to them it’s all about the present and self indulgence.

  11. Climate change theory doesn’t say cooling can’t occur – it’s temperature increases outside of the natural variations that they’re talking about.

    In other words, the theory says that without AGW, any cooling would be greater, and any warming would be less, with the overall trend being upwards when you take out the natural variations….

  12. I have been sent a very fascinating report on Global Resources by GMO which has the mast amazing graphs and statistics.

    In 1800 the world had 1 billion humans. In 1900 it has 1.9 Billion so it took 100 years to increase by 900 million.

    In 2000 the world had 6 billion so it was now only taking 25 years to increase the population by 1 billion.

    By 2050 it is expected that the population will reach 10 billion. resulting in it only taking 12.5 years to increase the population by each billion.

    As a result we are now depleting our finite resources 285% faster than in the early 1900s.

    By 2050 it is expected we will be depleting our resources 600% faster which is over 300% faster than in 2000.

    As a result do not expect the price of any finite resource such as oil or any of its byproducts, coal or any other finite resource to fall. It is expected that cost of such items will force the majority to no longer be able to afford private vehicles which use Petrol.

    The growth of humanity has come at an amzing and startling cost to the planet over the last 100 years apparently. While we have improved our standard of living by productivity growth. that same productivity growth is decimating our planet.

    Where it took days to fell a few trees we now fell hundreds of acres with bulldozers in a number of hours and destroy everything inbetween. Timber is a finite resource.

    Where it took days to catch a certain number of seafood, we now have huge drag nets and hook lines for hundereds of kilometres killing anything and everything in their path sucking the oceans dry. Seafood is a finite resource.

    Below is the summary.

    Summary
     Until about 1800, our species had no safety margin and lived, like other animals, up to the limit of the food supply,
    ebbing and fl owing in population.
     From about 1800 on the use of hydrocarbons allowed for an explosion in energy use, in food supply, and, through
    the creation of surpluses, a dramatic increase in wealth and scientifi c progress.
     Since 1800, the population has surged from 800 million to 7 billion, on its way to an estimated 8 billion, at
    minimum.
     The rise in population, the ten-fold increase in wealth in developed countries, and the current explosive growth in
    developing countries have eaten rapidly into our fi nite resources of hydrocarbons and metals, fertilizer, available
    land, and water.
     Now, despite a massive increase in fertilizer use, the growth in crop yields per acre has declined from 3.5% in
    the 1960s to 1.2% today. There is little productive new land to bring on and, as people get richer, they eat more
    grain-intensive meat. Because the population continues to grow at over 1%, there is little safety margin.
     The problems of compounding growth in the face of fi nite resources are not easily understood by optimistic,
    short-term-oriented, and relatively innumerate humans (especially the political variety).
     The fact is that no compound growth is sustainable. If we maintain our desperate focus on growth, we will run
    out of everything and crash. We must substitute qualitative growth for quantitative growth.
     But Mrs. Market is helping, and right now she is sending us the Mother of all price signals. The prices of all
    important commodities except oil declined for 100 years until 2002, by an average of 70%. From 2002 until now,
    this entire decline was erased by a bigger price surge than occurred during World War II.
     Statistically, most commodities are now so far away from their former downward trend that it makes it very
    probable that the old trend has changed – that there is in fact a Paradigm Shift – perhaps the most important
    economic event since the Industrial Revolution.
     Climate change is associated with weather instability, but the last year was exceptionally bad. Near term it will
    surely get less bad.
     Excellent long-term investment opportunities in resources and resource effi ciency are compromised by the high
    chance of an improvement in weather next year and by the possibility that China may stumble.
     From now on, price pressure and shortages of resources will be a permanent feature of our lives. This will
    increasingly slow down the growth rate of the developed and developing world and put a severe burden on poor
    countries.
     We all need to develop serious resource plans, particularly energy policies. There is little time to waste.

  13. My theory on regional cooling, it’s happening on our doorstep.

    Before everyone screams WEATHER, I’m talking about the local effect of a cool IPO as in 1945-76.

    It has been cooler in the Territory.

    ‘It turned out to be the coldest May on record, equal with May 1960, averaging just 25.3 degrees, almost two degrees colder than the long-term norm.’

    From yesterday’s SMH.

  14. El gordo…it’s WEATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Time to zen out, try a visualisation exercise, an incey wincey little picture it’s called the weather. Now try a Bigggg Picture..a really really big one. That’s called Climate.

  15. Apparently about 100 million tonnes is added to the weight of the earth each year from meteorites. This would explain the stronger gravitational pull of the earth.

    Some of you may have noticed it too. It certainly is effecting me. This damn gravitation is hell bent on pulling my tummy as close to the ground as possible, and the gravitational thrust is hard to combat when attempting to get out of a chair.

    That’s my theory and I’m sticking to it.

  16. Migs, I cannot honestly say that I noticed. Duck feathers must give you some sort of anti-gravitational pull.

  17. From the link in my post I found this piece of cold comfort.

    22,000 AD

    The Chernobyl disaster site becomes fully safe.

    The Chernobyl explosion, which occurred in 1986, was the worst nuclear accident in history – affecting tens of thousands of square kilometres of land. Radiation at the centre of the former disaster zone has decayed to negligible levels by now.

    In any case, the original buildings on site have long since disappeared and indeed, Earth itself would be unrecognisable today.

  18. Migs, cold comfort is cold comfort indeed. Not much point stewing over it..that’s all in the past the point is as you stated in your topic is to learn from the past, so as the make the future all that better.

  19. In the meantime Chernobyl is running lucrative tours (suited up) and within less than five years they expect the numbers to swell.

  20. Pingback: back to the future « Cevennenwolf

  21. Miglo that is an interesting link to the future. I note that the human race will colinise other planets and will escape the ultimate demise of Earth.

    Problem is, ignoring the possibilty of the human race wiping themselves out or choking to death on a filthy planet, they will not survive over 10 million years. The Y chromosome which determines the male gender is dying. Within 10 million years there will be no males born.

    The current human population of the earth is 51% female. Forty years ago it was 49%. It’s happening.


  22. “Let us assume that the straight line we call time continues on its merry way…”

    Aah, but there in lies your first mistake Migs.

    Time is not linear.

    I once read a book called “The nature of time” (or something like that). I got about half way through, basically because it became too complicated for this simpleton.

    However, one theory I remember is that time is in fact proof that there are multiple dimensions – one where things exist at a single point in time, and another where things do not exist, or exist in another dimension. The “clash” of these dimensions gives the illusion of time – perceived by humans as “things changing over time.”

    As you can appreciate it was very complicated but fascinating reading all the same.

    By way of example, one example the author gave was that when you break an egg – it exists in two states; one state where the egg is not broken, and another state where the egg is broken.

    There is no “inbetween state” of the egg neither being whole nor broken. It is this “gap” between states, that the author argues makes a case for other dimensions that may exist in between things being in one state, and then suddenly in another state.

    Naturally these things are going on all around us all the time, and in order to make sense of it all, humans perceive this as “the passing of time” – as we constantly interpret things moving from one state to another but “blurring” over the inbetween state (or parallel levels of existence) where things are in one state before changing into another state.

  23. The little green men currently visitationing us are perhaps people from our distant past who have escaped the earths cataclysm far in the future, because, as we all know, time is cyclic

    As evidenced by grodos grolling 🙂

  24. I stand corrected. The book was called “The Structure of Time” by William Newton-Smith.

    Just in case you all want to rush out and buy a copy..

  25. Reb, time is not linear in all cultures, I agree. Aborigines consider that white man’s time travels straight like a spear. To them, time travels like a boomerang. It comes back in a circular fashion.

  26. The expression ‘a watched kettle never boils’ is not accurate, but what we see here is the expansion of time. Whether five minutes goes quickly or slowly happens in our minds.

  27. Not sure if time is straight or warped but we seem to have a habit of revisiting old arguments on the climate change front so perhaps it’s circular(ish) :-p

    How’s it going folks? Good to see all the old crowd (more or less) here.

    I think I might be a regular visitor here around this time each evening for a while – I’m on feeding duty at 10.30 to give the mum a break!

  28. Dave, bloody good to see you. And it’s about time we had another wine expert around here (besides myself). :mrgreen:

    Am I to presume there’s the patter of little feet in the household? Congratulations. Help yourself to a bottle of something from the cellar.

  29. Just when we thought ‘time’ couldn’t be anymore confusing, up pops this.

    Time not necessarily deeply rooted in our brains.

    Hidden away in the Amazonian rainforest a small tribe have successfully managed what so many dream of being able to do – to ignore the pressures of time so successfully that they don’t even have a word for it.

    It is the first time scientists have been able to prove ‘time’ is not a deeply entrenched human universal concept as previously thought.

    Researchers, led by Professor Chris Sinha from the University of Portsmouth Department of Psychology, studied the way in which time was talked about and thought about by the Amondawa people of Brazil. Their research is published in the journal Language and Cognition.

    Professor Sinha said: “For the Amondawa, time does not exist in the same way as it does for us. We can now say without doubt that there is at least one language and culture which does not have a concept of time as something that can be measured, counted, or talked about in the abstract. This doesn’t mean that the Amondawa are ‘people outside time’, but they live in a world of events, rather than seeing events as being embedded in time.”

    Would they be suggesting that time is just a figment of our imagination? That it is only a reality because we label and measure it?

  30. Back to the topic for a bit, I guess I’m more inclined to ME’s optimistic bent on looking at the future. Unfortunately, I think it’s going to take something pretty significant to wake a big chunk of people out of their denialist stupor and I hope for all of our sakes that this wake-up call isn’t something that really hurts a lot a people.

    The interesting thing about the whole CC debate is that I think I would be truely relieved to find out that I have been wrong in adopting the view of the mainstream climate scientists and that AGW was a huge scientific cock-up – sure, I’d feel a bit silly but I wouldn’t be too annoyed about being a strong advocate for a policy that delivered a (very small) bit of short term pain for an economic reform that ultimately drives cleaner energy. The Corolorary of that is what would I feel if I was in el gordo’s or Bolts, or Abbott’s shoes and finally realised that everything the (real) scientists had been saying for over 30 years was in fact right and I had been responsible for delaying action that may have helped save thousands or millions of lives and billions (trillions) of dollars in damage and lost GDP (and all the things Mig’s has listed in his dire timeline). How could you seriously live with that on your conscience? Is the inability to face up to the possibility (probability) of being partly responsible for such a dire outcome that is now driving some people in their opposition to AGW/CC and it’s related policies?

  31. Reb, I think Mobius linked to a site some time which considered that time belongs in little packets. How interesting it would be if the rate of time was different in each packet?

    I buy into the argument of different dimensions, or even time warps, but I don’t think they run parallel to our ‘time’.

    Missing time is a fascinating event to study. There’s some weird goings-on out there.

  32. Dave, I predict there’ll be some great vintages in the future, although they may be few and far between as soil conditions deteriorate.

    Some wine industry group warned Howard about climate change ten years ago but they were completely ignored. I don’t have the details – I read it in a wine magazine recently.

  33. Migs, yes, there is a new addition to the 55 household although occasional wailing is heard perhaps a little more than the pitter pat of little fit (for a few months at least).

    Helping myself to something from the cellar as I speak! A young Cab from WA that I opened yesterday (2008 Briarose Reserve Cab). It’s a bit (read very) young and I think I’ll leave the rest of the case for a few more years and try something else tomorrow night.

    How’s things? Tried any good wines lately?

  34. Enjoyed a 2006 Zema Estates Coonawarra Shiraz over the weekend and it was an absolute cracker. I’ve been crying ever since as I only bought one bottle.

    Apart from that, things are OK.

  35. Migs,

    France (Bordeaux in particular) has just seen a deacde of great vintages on the back of hot seasons. 2009 and 2010 were extraordinary (apparently) with the latter essentialy a drought vintage which resulted in Right Bank merlot dominant wines of 15 and even 16 percent alcohol! The view of some, if not a lot, of wine writers seems to be that last year was pushing it for merlot in Bordeaux and, while there will be some amazing (greatest ever?) wines come out of 2010, any hotter and things are going to go awry.

    Might be good for desert wines though!

  36. Hah! I meant to write “dessert” but what I actually wrote seems wittier in reflection. Off to feed the little man!

  37. Good to see you around these parts Dave! Congratulations on the little Tige – busy and intriguing times to “enjoy”. My little fella gets married in just over five weeks’ time. 😯

    What da ya reckon – Broncos for the premiership in 2011? 😆

  38. Roswell @ 7.58pm, except in China and in India where they altered one of the variables causing both countries to now have a huge imbalance of male babies being born. It is estimated that in China there are entire villages of men in their 20’s and 30’s who will never be able to marry. This being an unforeseen consequence of China’s one-child policy.

  39. Well Miglo predicting the Future in NSW may be more interesting. First break the promises, then break the employment rules for government workers (excepting politicians), now liken scientists to Nazis.

    Quoting from Dr Phelps, the NSW Upper House Whip ”some of the strongest supporters of totalitarian regimes in the last century have been scientists”.
    Last time I looked the NSW government thanks to the last election is more akin to a totalitarian regime and thanks to Dr Phelps he has likened his own side of politics on the issue of Climate Change to the worst of recent history.

    Anyway have a read of this article,

    Upper house whip under fire for Nazi slur on scientists

    http://www.smh.com.au

    So will the Federal Opposition ask any more questions on how many State Premiers support Climate Change?

  40. And here is the link for Barrl of Lies breaking the employment rules to suit their OWN MPs

    Premier’s office pressed for Rockdale MP John Flowers
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au

    Thats right the guy who was previously a teacher, but now on a disability pension, has to change the rules of a NSW Government pension, to take up his MP job.

    No doubt this guy has been advising his boss on how public servants are ripping off the electorate.

    Kind of reminds you of when Howard got absolute power with the majority in the Senate and the nation got Work Choices. Don’t worry NSW only 3years and 10 months until you can adjust the numbers.

  41. So, to sum up the discussion so far:

    Time flys like an arrow,
    Fruit flies like a banana.

    Gravity sucks!

    and don’t feed the troll.

  42. It’s hilarious how Gordo brings up a point and when it gets shot down with… facts. He simply moves onto another point. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so transparently pathetic.

    At the forum I post at, we have the evidence rule. If you make a claim (like global cooling) you have to offer evidence for it, usually a peer-reviewed journal article from a credible scientific institution or journal.

    If your argument gets proven incorrect (like it has above), you have to concede.

    If you don’t concede, you get banned. It works pretty well, we have left wingers and conservatives but no worthless trolls.

  43. “Reb, I think Mobius linked to a site some time which considered that time belongs in little packets. How interesting it would be if the rate of time was different in each packet?”

    I think that is the wrong way of looking at it from what I understood was the way the quantum physicist was portraying her theory.

    At the moment time-space is considered linear with a start, usually taken as the Big Bang and even a future that might be infinite but could also be finite to the end of the universe(s). It is then theoretically possible to travel back or forward in time given enough energy.

    What I think she proposed is that isn’t the case, and though it’s linear it only exists in a packet of an indeterminate length. I suppose that could be tP (Planck time 10 to the power of −44 second)

    Thus my reference to Steven King and the Langoliers, who ate time space the moment its time had passed.

  44. Ah regional cooling, not global cooling. What is it el gordo?

    Is the global temperature increasing or decreasing?
    Are global glacial ice volumetric levels increasing or decreasing at an accelerating rate?
    Are global oceans’ acidic levels increasing or decreasing due to saturation of man made CO²?
    Are deep ocean saline levels increasing or decreasing due to the increase in ocean temperatures?
    Are flora and fauna globally moving to areas they have never inhabited or are dying out because they can no longer survive the climatic conditions of their normal habitats?

    …and the list of indicators goes on and on.

    But not long ago you were saying the planet is warming but it’s natural, now you’re saying it’s cooling. Wish you would get your denier memes right.

  45. There is something on the near horizon that is going to be a very serious problem: peak oil.

    Can’t add much to that statement at the moment as I’m pushing down breakfast and late for work.

  46. ME global temperatures are no longer increasing.

    Some mountain glaciers are losing ice while others are putting it on.

    Acidic oceans is a ‘beat’up’.

    Flora and fauna have always moved with the change in climate.

    Late last century the planet was warming, but now we are on a plateau and regional cooling (which is observable) will soon become global cooling.

    It is not the end of the world, we experienced it between 1945-76 and 1880s until WW1.

    You are desperate to impose a carbon dioxide tax to stop temperatures raising 2 degrees by the end of the century, but over the next decade temps will fall by 2 degrees and I’m not a happy little muppet. Don’t like the cold!

  47. Oh thank you ashghebranious.

    The amount of times in places like Blogocrats that I argued the Howard government were not good economic managers, and in fact were terrible, and this article shows what I was saying as far back as 2000 about that government.

    Howard’s economic success was in one part due to luck, stumbling into the longest sustainable global economic growth in history, an unprecedented resources boom (which is increasing today) and piggy backing onto the Hawke/Keating reforms that were improving Australia’s economy even before Howard took the reigns on a massive lie. And in part because Howard bribed the electorate with massive handouts of middle class welfare to spend beyond their means and instigated policies that encouraged that unsustainable spending. It was Costello at the time who flagged that the spending of Australian people in racking up the largest personal debt levels in the world was unsustainable, which of course Howard rebuked in his aspirational and never having it so good memes.

    Keating had instigated policies that encouraged savings, which was one of the reason he found himself in the economic dire straits he did, and now this Labor government is also encouraging savings, which in some ways is to its political detriment but in the long run is good for the country and those individuals who are saving.

    The moment the Liberals gain power again, one thing is certain they will do everything to encourage people to spend and spend, even if this is spending beyond their means. Bad for the long term outcome of the country but it looks good for the short term thinking of the Liberals.

  48. ‘Some mountain glaciers are losing ice while others are putting it on.’

    Some mountain glaciers are losing ice while ALL others are putting it on.

    Fixed it for ya grodo 😉

    ‘Where’s your evidence el gordo?’

    It’s that cyclical thing again. Time for the next previously debunked meme’ 🙄

  49. I covered Baillieu thing in the other thread Tom.

    Same as O’Farrell in NSW, whilst the main things they promised to fix when in opposition continue to decline they stuff around on meaningless drivel policies whilst making soothing noises to the people and getting in for every look good photo op they can.

    And around in circles we go. The Lib State governments will right royally screw things and leave a decimated infrastructure, industrial and social wasteland and Labor after starting well will stumble over their own ineptitude and toadying to the big end to collapse under their list of failings, only for the Libs to get back in on lies and promises they have no intention of keeping.

    I can understand NSW throwing out Labor but by just about every measure VIC was travelling well so why they threw out Labor there has me perplexed.

  50. ‘…by just about every measure VIC was travelling well so why they threw out Labor there has me perplexed.’

    Pure and simple, the carbon dioxide tax.

  51. The people of Victoria blamed Labor for adopting green ideas and they knew intuitively it would lead to a carbon dioxide tax.

    Water policy was clearly a failure, desal over dams was a no brainer.

  52. Why do you utter such utter crap el gordo?

    Bloody hell you even contradict yourself.

    It’s the carbon tax’s fault.
    It’s Bolt’s fault.

    You can’t even get a basic attempt at drollness right so how can you expect anyone to ever believe you on the climate debate?

  53. I thought I had pointed this out already ME

    There is no ‘debate’ with grodo, simply putting down his meme’s if you feel like it, or simply ridiculing him as a troll, whatever takes yer fancy at the time.

    He may want to pretend he is ‘debating’, but he has proven repeatedly he is incapable.

    I merely seek to return the favour.

    It helps break the cycle 😉

    He is reminiscent to me of the Duke of Queens

  54. Perhaps he’ll update us when he gets back from the future Min?

    Unless he’s suffering from peak breakfast.

  55. And as the carbon tax draws closer to becoming a fait accompli…

    Several leading Australian economists have signed an open letter calling for a price on carbon, saying it would provide essential and structural reform for the domestic economy.

    The group includes Westpac’s chief economist, Bill Evans, the Grattan Institute’s Saul Eslake, Macquarie Bank’s chief economist, Richard Gibbs, and the former leader of the Liberal Party, John Hewson.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/06/02/3233627.htm?section=justin

  56. When the time is availed to me I might put up a post on peak oil. There are two standouts on the issue:

    1. Peak oil is a reality that is closer than we think.
    2. Tony Abbott doesn’t believe in it.

  57. The ETS had already been rejected twice in the senate and it reflected the people’s concern about an increase in the cost of living under Labor governments committed to restricting the production of CO2.

    Also, the Bolter’s influence goes recognized.

  58. reckon that’s the Open Letter ME linked to earlier at Core Economics Min.

    Apparently it was also in the oo, but couldn’t find it.

    Instead, I found another article bagging Larissa Behrendt

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/divisive-academic-paid-641-daily-fee/story-fn59niix-1226067510010

    Claims she was ‘forced into making an apology to Ms Price’, even though it was my impression it was her own choice, no one pressured her.

    Any way, thought it kept with my circular theory of time 😉

    And around they go 🙂

  59. Yes Min, every time grodo posts I experience it 😦

    Feel like I’ve been here before

    Ever had a conversation
    That you realise you’ve had before
    Isn’t it strange

    Have you ever talked to someone
    And you feel you know what’s coming next
    It feels pre-arranged

  60. I thought that this article was an excellent one..

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/role-reversal-as-liberals-belt-labor-with-class-war-rhetoric-20110601-1fgjv.html

    Tony Abbott’s out to protect ”working people” from the evils of elite actresses.

    The Australian working class was once oppressed by big business. Today it suffers under the yoke of actors and actresses. Is it just me, or have others noticed that the Liberal Party under Tony Abbott has become the party of class war, class envy and class hate?

  61. Min, the way yabot flops and changes from one day to the next would be farsical, if only it would be acknowledged as such and not treated as valid opposition by the meeja

  62. Interesting article…

    Working class = uneducated/Labor voters ~ educate the working class = latte sippers/Labor voters. Today the working class/shock jock listeners/Liberal voters.

    So by educating the working class Labor has become the party of the elite and the Liberal blue rinse set has become ‘working class’. A complete role reversal in the past decade.

  63. Julia is living up to the description of ‘a fiery redhead’ in the House of Reps today 🙂

  64. And Tim Dunlop on the NSCP…

    The National School Chaplaincy Program goes completely against the spirit and intent of that doctrine and it violates the rights of those who do not want their kids exposed to religious teachings while they are at school. The NSCP really should be ended.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2742414.html

  65. Not a bad article Min and essentially correct about the political changes taking place. As I mentioned previously we are in the early stages of an agrarian socialist movement, but the author is wrong on this.

    ‘If Labor wants to stop being used as a punching bag, it could do worse than take off the gloves and start talking about the real consequences for ordinary people when climate change begins to hit.’

    They have been telling the people for years about droughts, heat and rising sea levels because of AGW, yet the shock jocks have been more convincing.

    And all they are saying is nothing unusual is happening to climate and CO2 does not cause global warming.

    The average person is suffering from climate fatigue and would like to move along because there is nothing for them here.

  66. “…yet the shock jocks have been more convincing.”

    Blaaart… wrong again.

    The shock jocks only preach to a core that believes anything they say and is a very small proportion of the general population. That you find them convincing shows where your narrow mindset lies and how easily you are led.

    Plus you make the terrible mistake of equating the validity of climate change to popular opinion. The science doesn’t give a shit about polls. So yet again you get it wrong.

  67. Loved America and still have that particular LP.

    Here is a snapshot of regional cooling.

  68. That reminds me of something that I was doing a few years back and this is knitting jumpers for penguins.

    Now you might think that this is a slightly unusual thing for me to be doing (or maybe not…) but there was actually a reason for doing this and not just a fashion statement for penguins.

    Fairy penguins would come in contact with pollutants and lose their natural insulation and so would freeze to death. Therefore the rescuers/carers would have to dress them in wooly jumpers.

    But the odd thing about penguins is that they are very color conscious and no two penguins are alike. Some would wear red, some wouldn’t, some would wear green, some wouldn’t. If dressed in the wrong color they would freak out… No rhyme nor reason to this that anyone could work out, they are just fussy little blighters.

  69. Agree?

    ““I think there does need to be give and take on both sides, and this idea that sex is kind of a woman’s right to absolutely withhold, just as the idea that sex is a man’s right to demand I think they are both they both need to be moderated, so to speak.” *
    Give yourself a pat on the back if you immediately thought that only Australian Federal Opposition Leader Tony Abbott would voice the idea that a woman doesn’t have an absolute right to say no. ”

    *
    http://northcoastvoices.blogspot.com/2011/06/which-australian-politician-said-this.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FUtodS+%28North+Coast+Voices%29

  70. I’ve been watching the insight program I think you were talking about recently ME

    I caught the tail end on SBS last night, and watched the rest this morning. It is very informative. Although, considering the manner that the scientist answered the questions, it was depressing how few had even ‘mofified’ their denial. I also liked the way they complained about being ‘victimised’. Watch monktonne lay into ‘eco nazis’ for victimisation.

    But it is a good watch, and covers a fair bit of ground, even grodos revolving feezing mountains

    http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/index/id/401/The-Sceptics#watchonline

  71. Yes Tom and it was very telling how the ignorant in the audience absolutely immovably set in their denialism kept to their implausible denials, even when their questions were logically and scientifically answered.

    The whole range of denier memes were on show and the deniers in the audience were too set in their ways to notice that many were actually contradicting each other.

    One thing that many kept coming back to, remember that well spoken blonde close to the front, was the economic ruin of Australia if we had to mitigate carbon. Not a single one would acknowledge the relatively small cost now, made larger by more than two decades of procrastination, as compared to the enormous cost in several decades if nothing is done and AGW turns out to be as destructive as predicted.

  72. Tell us humans TB if you are traipsing around interstellar space in the mothership because you have fried your home planet?

  73. Adrian, we visit most inhabited planets withing the MW … we need to know if you can really act as adults in the Stellar Alliance … I’m afraid you are still marked as “K” level (kindergarten in your parlance) …

    … “must try harder” is a common statement on many of my peers’ reports …

    … I like you all, though … :mrgreen:

    Miggsy, you sound like you need a drink! *clink* … 😉

  74. That’s the last thing I want unfortunately. Seems to be a common habit of late. Lupus and wine don’t always mix. Just the mere thought of a wine makes me nauseas. Should I close the bar?

  75. Hmfff Migs..Pip was supposed to have her evening in the cellar..we girls and a 300 metre ball of string, for which purspose I wasn’t sure, however it did included nibblies, crisps and dips.

  76. The ladies still get their night in the cellar if Pip wants company. Which I’m sure she does. Drinking alone could be lonely.

  77. Miglo, I have to confess, I did spend some time in the cellar the other night, but I couldn’t find the light switch….I found my way out at daylight….

  78. By 2015 the tigers are doing fine and global warming has stopped.

    Everyone is quite shocked by the speed of natural variability, yet by 2020 some glaciers are still losing mass balance while others are putting it on.

    The scientists finally discovered, through the urgings of Victor Manuel Velasco of Mexico and Russian scientists, that a mini ice age had begun.

    This breakthrough came when it was recognized that the behavior of the sun is reflected in the oceans.

  79. By 2015 I will have learnt how to reverse-park…

    By 2015 I will have learnt how make decent spag bol…

  80. O’Farrell is finished at the next election or at the minimum will lose a whole lot of seats to rule with a minority or a slim majority.

    Stuff with IR and you have sounded the death knoll. It was in part what killed Kennett’s government, definitely the previous WA Liberal government and though the times many other Liberal governments as well, none more famous than Howard’s.

  81. Oh and in the meantime all the things he promised to fix are getting worse yet nothing has been heard from the NSW parliament as to policies or programs in the wind to fix them, but screw with workers, no troubles, even to invoking ancient laws to do so.

    Stupid, stupid and stupid.

  82. I don’t hate him, I’m just very disappointed in him because of all the NSW Liberal leaders throw up over the last decade and a bit he seemed halfway decent.

    It’s turning out, just as it is with the other State Liberals, he was all talk and bluster with a right wing core to screw workers and the State. He will end up the same as the other Liberal leaders who have gone down the path he seems to be heading and we will end up with another long term State Labor government that will start out well and then eat itself.

    Of all the States’ politics, New South Wales is by far the most frustrating and gut wrenching.

  83. Yes, Adrian I know. NSW is going to go down the gurgler and there is not a scrap anyone can do about it which makes it so much more frustrating. I do mean this.

  84. ‘Nah we have to wait a few years. And if the world is still warming, what then, wait a few years more?’

    Relax ME, there are no tipping points in sight.

    The only difference between us is the models and CU asks how do I know the models are flawed. Scientists have been ‘tweeking’ them to get the desired results, but obviously it’s difficult to prove.

    As average temperatures fall in the next few years and CO2 continues to climb at an unprecedented rate – the AGW theory will lose its momentum.

    Climate change is occurring, everyone here thinks it’s getting warmer (up 2 degrees by 2040) and I believe it will become two degrees cooler by 2040.

    There is very little between us, just a couple of degrees either way.

  85. Again just wide ranging assertions with no evidence. He makes them because if his wild claims don’t come about and the global temperature continues to rise he’ll just slink off somewhere get a new IP and change his moniker.

    Prove just one of you assertions with credited evidence on the models being deliberately manipulated to get the desired outcome?

    This will be interesting because all the data used for the modelling is freely available to everyone, so it would be relatively easy for those with the expertise to prove the data was being manipulated in the models to get a desired outcome.

    Finally. Note how he is again skirting around the challenges put to him instead of answering them.

  86. Let’s forget about the challenges put to me and get back on track.

    2040: Average global temperatures have dropped by two degrees and the global warming bandwagon is a distant memory.

    It took a little while adapting to shorter growing seasons in North America and elsewhere in the NH, but the free enterprise system saw that there’s no mass starvation.

    2045: There have been no major extinctions of animal or plant life, because regional cooling at this stage of the cycle allows for migration – as it has over eons of time.

    Mass migration of humans is avoided, along with the wars that normally go with it, by cultivating an orderly free market for goods and services, and the invention of cold fusion.

  87. 2045: regional cooling at this stage of the cycle allows for migration…

    Migrate to precisely where?

  88. Off into fantasy land because he can’t answer reality put to him so he makes up his own.

  89. Plants and trees migrate and so do animals, as they have done over millennia, long time survivors of natural variability.

    Humans will of course save any species which may have difficulty adapting, we are extraordinarily cleaver, willing and able to assist.

  90. Agreed plants and trees do adapt but it takes time and a lot of it – try 2445 and not 2045. Humans don’t exactly have the best track record in saving any species which may have difficulty adapting, we’re far more efficient at wiping them out.

    I’ll give you an example – you have a species of plant specifically adapted to a coastal wetland environment. Due to global warming that area is inundated. The plant cannot simply pack it’s bags and move elsewhere because there is no ‘elsewhere’ the area behind it might have the wrong soil, be exposed to dry winds or be already used for housing or agriculture.

  91. Nothing will become extinct because many thousands of scientists throughout the world will make sure everything is conserved and proliferates.

    Remember the Wollemi pine (may not be the correct spelling) can now be bought by people anywhere in the world. This is the future of endangered species.

  92. A great BIGGGG Noah’s ark might come in handy. Sadly not as easy as that. The Wollemi pine was lucky as it responds well to cultivation but many plants have specific needs and interact specifically with things such as butterflies.

  93. “many thousands of scientists throughout the world will make sure everything is conserved and proliferates.

    Remember the Wollemi pine (may not be the correct spelling) can now be bought by people anywhere in the world. This is the future of endangered species.”

    el gordo, I thought you believe that all scientists are shonks.

    The Wollemi Pine exists through a freak of nature. It mainly survived because it was not seen by people and was isolated.

    Better to prevent climate change in the beginning.

    el gordo, in many ways I hope you are correct. As the world is slow in reacting to the danger, it does not give many of us hope for the future.

    I suppose it does not matter to me or you if you are wrong. You and I,will not be here to see the results.

    Personally, I am more inclined to go along with the scientist. We have lost little if we do. We at least will be leaving a cleaner world, not reliant on what comes out of the ground and is finite.

  94. CC science has become tainted by the corrupt nature of the peer review system, which does not allow for interlopers with contrarian views.

    As the grant money dries up because the world is cooling its probably fair to say most will keep their jobs, except those concerned with sea level rise.

  95. I fail to see how the peer review system can result in corruption.

    How can other scientist rerunning your the tests do this.

    If you believe what you have said is correct, re doing the tests you have used can only support or refute what you are saying.

    el gordo, I do not understand. Maybe you can tell me how peer review works, as I obviously have it wrong

  96. Troll, troll and troll.

    One paragraph throwaway items that he’s done to death and been refuted on so often it has become nauseous.

    Note there are no sources, links or even an attempt at using a modicum of logic to explain the statement, he just throws it in, gets his 10 seconds of jollies as someone responds then throws in something totally different.

    Doesn’t matter how many times he’s shown up to be wrong and is asked for evidence, he will continue doing this without elucidating on anything.

    In other words he’s trolling plain and simple.

    Note yesterday he was working and too busy to provide any response to provide information, within minutes he posted elsewhere. He’s yet to provide any details but is still throwing in single paragraph nonsense and will keep doing this unless he’s ignored or given his own exclusive topic where he can post nonsense to his heart’s content. Of course doing this will have him playing the contrarian martyr.

    For me it’s ignore. If he sees that as a victory then he’s a bigger fool than I thought.

  97. Mobius it seems silly for us to use links which support our own values, this will get us nowhere.

    CU asks what makes me think the peer review system has become corrupted?

    Academics hoping to get a research grant in atmospheric science will always lean their research towards AGW, to be assured of getting the nod.

    2050: The Amazon Rainforest is in no danger of drying out, due to global warming, thanks to the return of wetter weather.

    Air quality and visibility has improved markedly since China and India cleaned up their particulate emissions.

    Bushfires remain at average levels even though the world has become a cooler place and the Dead Sea……

  98. “Academics hoping to get a research grant in atmospheric science will always lean their research towards AGW, to be assured of getting the nod.”

    el gordo, are you saying that AGW is all the research that is available in this big world of ours.

    That sounds a little suspect.

    I expect we will get longer droughts and more extreme wets when the come. I am not so sure how long the wet weather will last.

    What is expected is extremes of weather.

    What I do not want to see in the near future, a dry as long or longer than the one we have just had. The water in cities may run out next time.

    I fear what will happen to our fragile arable land that has to endure long dry and short extreme wets.

    I expect that there will be plenty of research needed to help us cope with th change in weather conditions.

    It is nice having the North West Passage open in our lifetime, but melting ice is a high price to pay.

  99. PS. el gord. I would have thought the coal and such industry would have enough interest and money to employ scientist to do their own research, proving that climat change does not exist.

    Research that can be peer reviewed and tested.

  100. Big oil and coal are not particular bothered by the debate, these resources are not really under threat until alternatives are found. Besides, the peer review system is supposed to be above all that.

    There will be a dry like the one we just had, they come around occasionally, but with a desal plant in every city its unlikely that anyone will die of thirst.

    ‘Short extreme wets’ haha! Over the next two decades it’s going to be cool/wet and we know this for sure.

    Everything Flannery told you is a lie.

  101. BONN: The world may have to resort to technology that sucks greenhouse gases from the air to stave off the worst effects of global warming, the UN climate change chief said before global talks which opened yesterday.

    ”We are putting ourselves in a scenario where we will have to develop more powerful technologies to capture emissions out of the atmosphere,” said the executive secretary of the UN framework convention on climate change, Christiana Figueres. ”We are getting into very risky territory,” she said, stressing that time was running out.

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/un-climate-chief-warns-of-risky-delays-20110606-1fpbi.html#ixzz1OXt936KN

  102. el gordo,once again I do not understand why the “the peer review system is supposed to be above all that “the peer review system is supposed to be above all that.”

    As I understand, the peer review system is to test ALL research. It exists for private as well as public research.

    You do research, you make a finding and then you put it in the public arena. Others then redo the research that you have done. If the results are same, the research is consider to be reliable.

    It has nothing to do with how the research is funded.

  103. CU, exactly. A peer review system has the advantage that it’s a cross-check. Imagine 6 people, all peers of approximate expertise, of similar qualifications and experience. These people, solely because of who they are and what they know and their qualifications review not only the item being tabled, but any dissenter would be quick to pick up what they perceive is a error from another peer.

  104. el gordo, with desal plants we are unlikely to dry of thirst, you are correct.

    The problem is that the pasture, crops and stock will.

    Our very limited topsoil will blow away in the dust storms. What remains will be washed away when the cycle changes to extreme drought breaking rain.

    If the drought had lasted another twelve months, Mr, Flannery could very well have been correct. Our dams reach dangerous low levels across the country.

    I do not know why you assume that those who believe in climate change take all their information from Mr. Flannery. We also take heed of over 94% of scientist across the world.

  105. CU, also due to climate change, the climate zones will change…well obviously…

    That is, we will have Melbourne having Adelaide’s climate and Adelaide more than likely having a climate similar to the Simpson Desert.

    Adelaide’s climate is currently classified as Mediterranean while Melbourne is classified as Temperate. That is, Melbourne will become warmer and wetter and Adelaide will become hotter and drier.

    ALL plant species have spent a very long time adapting to living in these zones. A forest of eucalypts which have adapted to a Temperate climate will have difficulty surviving in a Mediterranean climate.

    CU..anyone who has lived in Adelaide knows all about the dust storms.

    Desals will look after the cities, but what about the country towns which rely on rainfall.

  106. 2060: As mentioned earlier, mass migrations of refugees is avoided by making sure humanity is well fed and housed. The discovery of cold fusion has become the big game changer.

    Sea level continues to fall slowly, but has no discernible effect on peoples lives.

    High speed rail networks are popular in the US and Australia, a big island with a population of 40 million.

  107. By 2070 global average temperatures have dropped 4 degrees C, natural variability happens with frightening speed.

    ‘At the end of the Medieval Warm Period, ~1230 A.D., temperatures dropped ~4°C (~7° F) in ~20 years and the cold period that followed is known as the Little Ice Age.’

    Don Easterbrook Jan 26, 2011

  108. 2080: Polar bears proliferate and the local humans organize a controlled cull. Some wildlife is having trouble adapting, but there are no extinctions.

    Oddly, the occasional heatwaves still plague Europe, it’s the nature of the beast – gaia.

    Traditional agriculture is still practiced where feasible, pretty much everywhere, the main difference is the shortened growing season in mid-latitudes. There are still droughts and floods, ENSO continues to operate as it has over the past million years.

  109. El gordo you’ve got rocks in your head no extinctions where the fckn hell do you think that wildlife are going to move to. You’re talking about territorial rights here another species can not just move into another species territory. I would recommend you do some reading.

  110. We will package them up and put them on islands, like we did with the Tasmanian Devils, which in essence will become large natural zoos.

    All flora and fauna which have developed over millions of years should survive this modest cooling.

  111. You have to be kidding the breeding of the Tasmanian Devil in captivity has had limited success with the females going into stress and the males eating the young.

  112. El gordo what are you going to do with the migratory herds..make them walk around and around in circles!

  113. Migratory birds, sea life and wildlife everywhere will migrate naturally, as they have always done, a brief global cooling will have no detrimental effect.

  114. Migrate to where? Migratory animals have developed their migratory patterns over thousands of years. An example is migratory birds which arrive at an island to find that instead of rookeries for 10,000 birds that there is room for only 7,500 birds and ten years later there is only room for 5,000 birds. And five years later room for only 1,000 nesting pairs. The population plummets and the genetic mix deteriorates making the species far more vulnerable to disease. The few nesting pairs which remain inbreed and the species becomes endangered.

    Humans can intervene to a certain extent but once a species gets below a certain level it becomes almost impossible to bring them back from the brink. The newspapers might say 100,000 but that’s a very very small genetic pool to draw from.

  115. ‘Migratory animals have developed their migratory patterns over’ millions of years.

    They move around, having experienced life during warm climate optimums and deep glaciation yet survived. Those that become extinct will be replaced by other creatures more adaptable, that’s life on this planet.

    2100: ‘Extreme drought is effecting one-third of the planet.’

    This may turn out to be true as we slide into another glacial epoch, it gets droughty for around 400 years, but the good news is that human induced CO2 has helped mitigate against a collapse in agriculture.

    Quoting John & Katherine Imbrie: ‘statistically speaking then, the present interglacial is already on its last legs, tottering along at the advanced age of 10,000 years and can be expected to end within the next 2,000 years.’

  116. El gordo, “they move around”. No they don’t just move around they follow specific migratory paths and these migratory paths evolved over thousands of years. The paths changed but the paths remained basically the same from south to north from east to west, high country to low country.

    Do you know what happened to the American bison when the migratory paths were interrupted.

  117. It is to be noted that your prior, balanced notion of winners-and-losers-equalisation is perhaps discounted by an additional intuition that each and both will be migrating, one way or another, even the winners-take-all, under latest scenario-casting. I’m not sure that’s an entirely costless exercise all round, somehow, El Gordo, in a balanced equation.

  118. ‘Do you know what happened to the American bison when the migratory paths were interrupted?’

    I blame the Europeans, in their migratory quest they made life difficult for bison and the original hunters and gatherers, the same story in Australia.

    We cannot undo what has happened, but our collective past experience should guarantee our future survival, albeit with a reduced population.

    Adaptation is the key to survival, we call it Plan B, not entirely costless but ….

  119. Within a decade we will know that global warming has stopped, so the timeline closer to reality is 60 to 80 years of cooler climate, according to Mexican professor Victor Manuel Velasco. The Russians can speak for themselves.

    ‘Scientists based at the academy’s Pulkovskaya Observatory in St Petersburg, Russia, said they expected a gradual decrease in global temperatures in 2012-15, followed by a more dramatic, 60-year period of cold to come in 2055-60.’

  120. ‘Only a few dozen climate scientists still support the AGW cause. At least 32,000 climate scientists worldwide, approximately 9,000 holding PhD’s, now believe that the ‘theory of catastrophic global warming’ is not supported by scientific evidence over the ages. Carbon dioxide does not heat the planet.’

    Cliff Harris

  121. The greenhouse effect keeps the earth warm by preventing all the sun’s heat escaping back out into space. Carbon dioxide is one of several “greenhouse gases” that help in this. Some others are water vapor, methane, nitrous oxide, and CFCs. In fact, any gas with three or more atoms acts as a greenhouse gas. Carbon dioxide captures this radiated heat and keeps it in the atmosphere. This is how it acts as a greenhouse gas.

  122. grodo

    What is it about a leopard and his spots ?

    Jesus, the 32,000 meme is years old. I would have the the denialiti had moved on by now.

    Why don’t I post up more links of your glorious career at Deltoid being caught out again and again 🙂

  123. So I am guessing when you said you weren’t discussing AGW anymore, that was simply another lie?

  124. I meant at GT.

    These are historical times, the warmists will see gubment funds for AGW research dry up.

  125. Climate change fatigue only comes on when I talk to you, bozo.

    Elsewhere we are laughing out loud at how nature has intervened on our behalf, we have a sun god.

  126. Tom, I suspect that there is this is morph type thingy where some people forget where they are at times….

    When in doubt play music 🙂

  127. “I meant at GT.”

    That was a wise decision that you made there. It is a pity that you do not make it universal.

  128. ‘Climate change fatigue only comes on when I talk to you’

    Yes, I apologise. I’ll try and hold off on facts and science in the future 😉 (and that’s a grodo promise)

  129. Yeah, let’s both hold off on peer reviewed facts and observe the weather, what harm in that.

    Cold up your way?

  130. I predict that as this thread slides off into the archives Min doesn’t have Miglo’s ‘daring do’ and willing to risk all by having a climate change post.

    Good move, it may help control my penchant.

    Ahhh……victory is so bloody sweet.

  131. El gordo, I admit it freely I not have Migs ‘daring do’. He’s a very special duck.

    If you would want to write a topic yourself, then go for it. In fact I’ll do it now. I’ll write giving my email address.

  132. A guest post? This offers the opportunity to write the Denialati manifesto.

    Thanks, very generous Min, but I would like TomR’s professional opinion before I decide.

  133. I’ve emailed…if you want to write then the Café being an egalitarian place will put your topic up. Go for it kiddo 🙂

  134. ‘Yeah, let’s both hold off on peer reviewed facts’

    Aww, you’re way ahead of me on that 😉

    ‘but I would like TomR’s professional opinion before I decide.’

    It’ll be crap (I’m using your previous history as a marker), but go for it.

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