The Barnaby Phenomena

Look into my eyes, Look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, dont look around the eyes, look into my eyes * Click* your under

The year is 2013 and following his massive win in the lower house seat of New England, Barnaby Joyce spoke with the same modest somewhat unassuming manner for which he is renown.

Tony Windsor had of course decided not to recontest New England once it was confirmed that Barnaby would stand against him. “How could I possibly be in contention against an intellectual icon such as Joyce”, Windsor was heard to mutter.

Joyce: “I set myself a goal and I achieved it. No this wasn’t beyond my wildest dreams, I have lots of wild dreams and this wasn’t one of them and so because I didn’t dream it, it couldn’t be wild now could it and.. Ummm or somefin’….”

But honestly, I am at a complete loss how the media can even treat Barnaby’s whiz-bang idea seriously with articles such as this one

Senator Joyce said he had been approached by several key Nationals figures who urged him to run for the lower house at the next federal election.

I should imagine that if Joyce does make a move from the Senate, and I’m certain that it will not be New England which Tony Windsor holds with a majority of 21.5%, that those in the Senate will be doing high-fives that they’ve finally got rid of him. I would be suspicious that Joyce’s motivation for making the move from the Senate is for one reason only – that he will no longer be able to hog the limelight once The Greens take control in July.

Caption by debbiep 🙂

180 comments on “The Barnaby Phenomena

  1. I sat through an interview with Joyce being conducted by Anal Jones. After every Joyce comment Jones would seem somewhat privelaged that here in his studio was a politician who is in touch with the electorate like no other politician in the land is. He repeatedly blurted this comment.

    I think Joyce started to believe him and now the thought influences his every move.

    Sorry Barnybaby, Anal was pulling your leg.

  2. And what else would you expect from the OO..

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/independent-tony-windsor-on-notice-as-barnaby-joyce-eyes-shift-to-lower-house/story-fn59niix-1226041226741

    Tony Windsor ‘put on notice’. I can’t see Tony Windsor running scared at the thought of Barnaby Joyce running against him. Of any two people currently in parliament I can’t think of a starker comparison – the down to earth Tony Windsor and the often out of control Barnaby Joyce.

  3. oh yes Min, he’s definitley on notice

    “If he’s not serious, and this is just an attack of attention-deficit problems, well I think he’s got to come clean with the people, get serious, or get on with the job he’s supposedly doing.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/04/19/3195391.htm

    I love the attention-deficit bit. He just doesn’t appear to be able to resist highlighting barnies intellectual limitations

  4. Tom, that article reminded me…Joyce did make a previous offer to stand in the House of Reps in his own electorate of Maranoa (I think), but the Queensland Nats didn’t want him.

  5. Thank you, Min! Another chance to play my ALP Nationals Anthem, bring it up to date and add another verse!

    ALP Song of Joyce

    We lefties all used to rejoice!
    They once had Barnaby
    As Shadow Finance Minister
    Whose one and one made three!
    Queensland had given such a gift,
    A talent rich and rare.
    No need to rage, at every stage
    Their Barnaby was there!
    As Tony strained to make some gains
    His Barnaby was there!

    We lefties all could yet rejoice!
    They daren’t dump Barnaby!
    He went to Water in the bush
    Where he could roam freely.
    Country development would be
    His first and major care.
    As well, you bet, he mentioned debt.
    Yes, Barnaby stayed there!
    As Tony strained to make some gains
    His Barnaby was there!

    We lefties all again rejoice!
    Now here is Barnaby,
    A Nationals man with foot in mouth,
    A ‘Windsor’ wannabe!
    New Englanders are offered up,
    A chance soon to compare.
    Then they can rage, on every page,
    If Barnaby they’ll bear!
    As Tony strains to make some gains
    Barnaby will be there!

  6. And how stupid is Joyce going to look when the electorate realizes that the policies that Windsor now supports actually work. The Great Big Tax mantra will be wasted by then.

  7. Min, just when you think it’s safe to come out, “Their Barnaby was there”.
    Imagine it, Prime Minister Boris Karloff and Deputy Dawg, Barny Rubble.
    How proud we all will be when BarnyR is Acting PM…….
    but he has to shift the decent, intelligent and witty Tony Windsor first 😀

    patricia, your latest should be sung out loud, wherever we go 😈

  8. Migs, how stupid is Joyce going to look? The same amount of ‘stupid’ as always I suppose 🙂 But excellent point..the very thing that Joyce might go into bat for now are most likely going to be old news by the time the next election is called. Which of course is one of the reasons behind Gillard’s decision to get rid of the tricky ones early in her term. It’s an old JWH trick, offload the nasties early and save the ‘special presents’ to just before the election.

  9. Pip, I’m of half a mind to suspect that although Joyce probably will make an attempt at a lower house seat the reason that Windsor in particular has been targetted is part of Abbott’s promise to Oakeshott and Windsor that if they had sided with him, that the LNP wouldn’t field candidates against them. They sided with Labor, and so it’s probably Abbott behind it all using the dim-witted Joyce for his own agenda…the good old intimidate to try to force an early election.

  10. It’s an old JWH trick, offload the nasties early and save the ‘special presents’ to just before the election.

    Much the same way I’m thinking, Min, except gillard’s policies aren’t nasty. 🙂

    Whenever Howard pulled any of his dirty tricks I thought that he’d shot himself each time, but come the election all was forgiven or forgotten.

  11. I stand corrected Migs 😉 Let’s say the ones that the Abbott-media have a chance of mounting scare campaigns against.

    And that’s the thing, even though a Howard policy might be unfair, unjust etc the public do tend to be lulled into accepting things as a fact.

  12. Miglo, how stupid will BJ look when he realises that Windsor is doing what his electorate asked, and backed the NBN, negotiated more funding for Health, and other benefits over many years.
    Barny made a point of announcing his competency as an accountant; well, Tony Windsor is an Economist…with years of experience and community involvement:
    http://www.tonywindsor.com.au/abouttw.html

    Those who can, do: http://www.tonywindsor.com.au/newsletters/1102.pdf

    Those who can’t, talk. http://www.barnabyjoyce.com.au/

  13. Min, I agree, Abbott would be part of the working party dreaming up various schemes to bring about an election, and he/they will stop at nothing to punish Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor.
    There’s been a lot of bad blood between Windsor and the Nationals according to Wikipedia [E+OE]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Windsor
    See Federal Ploitical Career

    It still looks like monkeys flinging poo to me, throwing mataphorical tanties, while the PM is off to Japan, Sth Korea and China looking quite composed despite what the MSM will say about her.
    When the Budget comes out the monkeys will have to re-jig their propaganda as the facts will no doubt differ from their current interpretatons

  14. Min ~ I have a good caption to go with the Photo of Barnaby

    Look into my eyes, Look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, dont look around the eyes, look into my eyes * Click* your under.

    🙂

  15. Good one Debbiep, I’ll add it on 🙂 At least I’ll give it a try..technology not being my thing.

  16. Branaby is a fool to even think of commenting like this when there is a long time to the next election.

    The Independents will not remove the current government, especially not after the ridicule they are copping from the right at the moment.

    So that means the next election will be in 2013 and as we all know even 30 days is a long time in politics.

  17. On a completely different tangent I received an email newsletter from broker central. This is the place that broadcasts items of interest to brokers and the finance sector.

    Apparently the Bank of America-Merill Lynch are stating that Australian Banks are far too lax in their lending policies and need to tighten their criteria as they are lending too much to those who may not be able to afford it. Apparently our banks do not allow enough for cost of living.

    This coming from the country whose banks invented and caused the GFC with their own abysmal lending practices which inluded NINJA (No Income No Job Applicant) loans. So they did not even need to have a job let alone make an allowance for the applicants cost of living.

    These American parasites need to go back to their own country and sort out the monumental disaster becfore lecturing the banking sysytem that didn’t go down the gurgler.

    I have no doubt their mission is as follows.
    1) Get Aussie Banks to lend less
    2) Cause economy to slow and banks shares to fall
    3) Launch hostile takeover on the grounds that current management is not performing.

  18. Migs

    It simply astounds me that they can say these sorts of things with a straight face and be meaning it. Are they completely blind that their own country has become the most indebted, selfish, greedy, parasitic nation on the planet.

    They wonder why they are disliked. With copmments like these to a solid ally what do they expect.

    I see the USA becoming increasingly irrelevent in many areas over the next 20-30 years. Their own extreem capitalist greed is destroying their middle class and creating a surfdom for the elite rich with the overwhelming majority now on minimal wages purchasing items made in China from the two huge corporations Wal Mart and Costco. During which time they have given the most obscene tax cuts to the rich.

  19. Pip, does Abbott have a choice? I thought that the Leader of the Nationals automatically became the Deputy as that’s part of the deal of why the Liberals and the Nationals are a coalition.

    There have been some bleatings from Barnaby that he is loyal to Truss, but I can’t imagine that the Nats wouldn’t want high profile Barnaby as leader rather than the highly ineffectual Truss. And I’m certain that Barnaby would ‘humbly’ accept the offer.

  20. Shaneinqld, your comments re

    Australian Banks are far too lax in their lending policies and need to tighten their criteria as they are lending too much to those who may not be able to afford it

    are of interest given recent experience. I’ve been told that the ‘hedge funds’ have taken a position based on ‘bank failures’ in Australia because of many punters walking away (defaulting). There’s no doubt that loans are harder to get now but I think that the international hedge funds fail to understand that here in Australia one can’t simply hand back the keys and walk away as they can in the US.

    Any comment?

  21. Shaneinqld, Bank of America-Merrill Lynch… are they seriously criticising Australian banks. I suppose they’ve forgotten the GFC and the bail-outs, and the bonuses already.

  22. Min, I thought that the Nats leader was always meant to be the Deputy, and so does the PM, as she warned only today that we could end up with PM Smuggles and Deputy Leader Barney Rubble.

  23. Shane @3.47pm, another keyboard killer. And coming from Merrill-Lynch, ffs! Next thing we’ll have Dick Fould telling us how to run a successful investment bank.

    Pity they didn’t take their own advice!!! And also a pity that they couldn’t be bothered to find out how the banking system actually works in this country. Says it all, really.

    Back on topic, I wonder what Barnacle’s driving at the moment?

  24. Pip @ 10.36pm. That’s exactly it. Under the agreement between the Liberal Party and the Nationals in which they agreed to form a coalition of the two parties, part of that agreement is that the Leader of the National Party automatically becomes Deputy Leader when the Liberals are in power.

    Breaking that agreement would most likely mean breaking the coalition, and although the Liberals would probably still have the Nationals support on many issues it would no longer be a foregone conclusion in the lower house. The Libs and the Nats would have a situation not dissimilar to Labor and the Greens in the lower house.

    Therefore if Abbott or indeed any Liberal won and Joyce replaced Truss as Leader of the Nationals, then Joyce would automatically become Deputy PM.

    Although Abbott said (via your link to the ABC story) that he has dismissed suggestions that Joyce would become Deputy PM, the reason that Abbott gave is “”The point Barnaby’s made is that he’s not interested in the leadership of the National Party,” Mr Abbott said.” That is, Abbott knows full well if Joyce did become leader then he indeed would be Deputy PM. Plus of course watch out for low flying pigs about the statement that Joyce isn’t interested in the leadership of the Nationals.

  25. Min, he makes it sound like he’s doing his Nats., colleagues a favour. This from The Australian

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/independent-tony-windsor-on-notice-as-barnaby-joyce-eyes-shift-to-lower-house/story-fn59niix-1226041226741

    Senator Joyce said he and his wife were born in New England, “our children were born in New England, and I played rugby for New England”. He believed his Nationals colleagues had a right to demand he move to the lower house if he was looking to play “a leading role in the National Party”.

    Senior party sources confirmed that Senator Joyce’s planned switch from the Senate was part of Nationals leader Warren Truss’s succession planning, and said Mr Truss had been working for some time on bringing forward the next generation of leaders.

    This doesn’t read as if Barnaby is the only leadership candidate, just the loudest,

    Now for the shot of the week..Marlboro Man

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/residency-rule-stalls-barnaby-joyces-choice/story-fn59niix-1226041837285

  26. Pip..gawd..that pic, that’s just down the road from where I used to live at Billinudgel.

    The Nats are so bereft of talent that Barnaby is just about the only candidate with any sort of profile whatsoever. The fact that Joyce has to move to NSW even if the NSW Nats do waive the rule to only 3 months as they did previously, tells me that the whole thing is one Big Gigantic Furphy about running against Tony Windsor.

    For starters what if Barnaby loses? Bye bye to the only high profile person that the Nationals have. IMO Joyce will run for a lower house seat, but it will be a safe one. All this grandstanding about something that is clearly not going to happen at least in the sort term is becoming something of a joke.

  27. Nature 5

    You are correct, there is a far greater drive in Australia to ensure mortgage loans repayments are made because Aussies cannot walk away from a loan.

    In Australia if an asset is sold and there is a residual debt the borrower is still liable for that residual debt.

    In America if the asset is sold and there is a residual debt the borrower is not liable and the financier takes a loss.

    When hedge funds are punting on something failing, you can rest assured that they are in there trying to make it fail. They are not simply having a bet, but rather attempting to manipulate the market, to ensure their so called gamble actually happens. Usually to the detriment of companies and their employees who remain oblivious to the underhanded tactics being utilised.

    Jane

    Yes it is unbeliavable. We will also probably get George Bush Jnr giving us advice on how to determine when a Mission is Accomplished :).

    The biggets problem is our governments and big businesses become so infiltrated with American garbage that we simply absorb it like water into a sponge. Only to be squeezed of our companies and profits which are bought up by American private equity leeches once they have done the damage to the image and value.

    Who then sack staff make a bigger profit and flog it back to us on the Stock Exchange for around a Billion more than they paid for it and leave wihtout paying a cent in taxes or capital gains.

    For some reason our governments and authorities and big businesses don’t see a conflict of interest or a moral outrage. I on the other hand I am not blind to those issues.

    Apologies to Min for being off topic.

  28. Quite alright Shane 🙂 It’s very interesting information. I was reading this morning that the US could possibly lose it’s AAA rating.

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/ailing-america-may-lose-its-aaa-rating-20110419-1dnhb.html

    Standard & Poor’s has forecast that US net general government debt will equate to 84 per cent of the country’s total domestic output by 2013.

    By comparison, Australia’s general government debt is expected to peak at a little more than 8 per cent of GDP next year before rapidly falling away, according to International Monetary Fund estimates. The average ratio for AAA-rated countries is 18.9 per cent.

  29. Min

    I think Barnaby is simply sounding out a repsonse to him running for the seat.

    If the response is good enough then he will make a formal announcement at a later date. If not then he will quietly withdraw from the comments.

    My surprise is that he has come out so early in the term of government to comment and I tend to think it is just headline grabbing comments to keep in the spotlight now that the recovery of the floods and cyclones is underway.

    His grandiose self importance may have been waining a bit.

    If I was a voter in the electorate of New Englane, no matter how I had voted. I would be very annoyed at the arrogance of the man wanting to oust the elected representative after such a short time since the last election.

    If I was a Queenslander and voted for the Nationals in the Senate I would be just as annoyed at him wanting to abdicate from his responsibilites in the senate in such a short time after the last election.

    There is a long time before the next federal election and many things will eventuate before that date arrives.

  30. Min

    The biggest thing the US did was give more and more tax cuts to the rich while halting wage increases to the poor.

    As I have shown before under the Republican party the minimum wage was frozen for 12 of the last 16 years they were in power.

    During this time tax rates for the rich were reduced substantially. While subsidies to huge oil corporations and multinational companies exploded.

    Anyone with even half a brain can see that these measures will result in massive losses of revenue for the government in the long term, leading to unsustainable debt levels. Hence the possible loss of AAA rating.

    Now this is all coming home to roost and it is very hard to increase taxes once you have reduced them.

    I now see a country crumbling in its own capitalistic extremities. It is truly interesting times.

  31. shaneinqld, the GOP are still insisting on giving the wealthy their tax cuts at the expense of the majority of Americans who can, apparently “eat cake”.

  32. Ew! That photo of Barnaby Joyce in The Australian link was taken at such an angle as to show how big his beer gut is getting. Wonder if he has to wear a girdle to get into his jeans?
    I also wonder if The Nationals have a campaign slogan worked out for Barnaby in New England? I’ve got one:
    ‘Send in the Clowns. Don’t worry, they’re here.’

  33. Huh! From the Sydney Morning Herald:

    In a keynote speech ahead of his fourth budget on May 10, Mr Swan will tell the Queensland Media Club that the consequences of the latest mining boom on the budget will be vastly different than the previous boom.

    Advertisement: Story continues below Unlike between 2004 and 2007 when tax revenues were revised up by a massive $334 billion cumulatively over the budget estimates, the current boom is expected to generate more modest inflows of revenue.

    “Mining boom mark two will have all of the pressures of the first boom, without the surge in revenues,” Mr Swan will say.

    “Will say”. Huh?

    Full story: http://www.smh.com.au/business/no-rivers-of-gold-from-this-boom-swan-20110420-1dnun.html#ixzz1K1Mwriby

  34. Pip

    Regarding Americans.

    Sadly I see a country that has slowly lost its own morals and standards, because these got in the way of profit and greed.

    A country which continually places the tax cuts for the rich over the health of its poorest.

    A country which has manipulated its constituional freedoms to such an extreme that their forefathers would be turning in their graves.

    A country that, yes, gives to other nations, but always seems to have some kind of agenda linked to that support (be it political or profit for its own corporations)

    A country that has a massive poor base over and above many european nations, yet claims to have the best political system in the world.

    A country that is the most indebted yet has the audacity to try and tell others how to run their country.

    A country where health insurance cost alone is over 100% of the minimum wage.

    A country where the wealth is so centralised that you can almost call it capitalistic communism.

    A country where you have individual freedom, but that freedom doesn’t pay bills or feed families so is pretty much irrelevant to the majority. This is evidenced in the numbers that actually turn out to vote.

    A country where the election is held on a working day where most employees cannot afford time off to vote or cannot get to a polling booth in time. That is unless you run the business or are rich, and we know how most of them vote.

    A country where it now takes an estimated 1,000,000,000 to become elected president for a 4 year term.

    A country where democracy has been manipulated and massaged by the elite to such an extent that the average person stands no chance of running for election.

    A country where over 80% of its citizens are ignorant of any other country or its culture.

    A country where 99% of all media time and news is related to all things American.

    A country where their news of someone dying is a major event in our own MSM comared to the loss of many lives in other countries.

    A country whose mega strangling corporations are slowly squeezing our own culture and way of life to death.

    I was a major supporter of the US for many years but after visiting the country twice and reflection on actual outcomes and my many friends personal experiences I have come to the conclusion that I do not like their version of Democracy or Capitalism.

  35. I just turned on the tv in time to see Donald Rump say something like, “I’m going to look at the OECD and..something… they’ve destroyed America”.
    He said what now???
    I knew I shouldn’t have turned it on.
    So Shane, all that you wrote above must be wrong… The Donald said so.

  36. Miglo, @ 11.07am. Why wait to hear the Treasurer speak at the National Press Club when you can make it up and get a scoop.

  37. Pip

    Would you trust a man with that hairdo 🙂

    Also if Donald says so then I have no doubt I am right.

  38. I gave in and decided to watch the noon news, and there was Mr. Rump. I was mistaken, he will be” looking at OPEC and China,” and “they’ve destroyed America, and we really need to look at the birth certificate, the birth certificate needs looking at”.
    He’s such a trout-mouth, and appears to be totally engrossed in himself. He has joined the throngs of “birthers”, and is questioning the birthplace of Pres. Obama.
    Send in the clowns indeed, they’re on both sides of the pond. Integrity FAIL

  39. Pip, that one about Obama’s place of birth is the equivalent of Abbott’s illusion that the independents are going to swap sides any tick of the clock. Rump and crones are under the illusion that somewhere, somehow they are going to find an imaginary birth certificate for Obama which will be a foreign country thereby excluding him from the Presidency.

  40. Pip

    If Communist China did not lend hundreds of billions of dollars to the USA to bail out its extreme capitalistic companies the whole country would have gone down the gurgler.

    Donald Trump need look no further than Wal Mart and Costco so see why America has lost so many jobs. When companies are forced to send their whole business offshore to get a slice of the WalMart of Costco pie, the jobs are gone.

    I wonder if his investment properties and offices use American made items or Chinese made items ?.

    In addition he would need to be careful in using his words to criticise China as they are not too receptive to public outbursts.

  41. Min, I believe all these tactics on the Right as andrew and piers and anal etc., mention so lovingly, as well as most of the MSM, come straight from the many think tanks/’institutes”, such as the very irritating Institute of Public Affairs, who seem to have a permanent booking on the Drum. They all quack the same.

    Shane, what gets me is the total lack of humilty on the part of the GOP, although they are so deeply indebted to China.

  42. Shane, the Peter Slipper stuff could be a direct result of the animosity from the Coalition after the election. Maybe…

  43. Min, I would have thought Tony Windsor would be the obvious choice for that title, but what would we know 🙂

  44. I’m just on my way to collect daughter from hospital after shoulder recon., and she might want to hog the computer for a while, even with one arm, so I may be absent for a while 🙂

  45. Pip, not so apparently as according to Tony Abbott the authentic voice of regional Australia is a limelight hogging air-head.

    Hope that your daughter is fine and especially doesn’t over-hog the computer 🙂

  46. Mr. Abbott has just been given more than five minutes speech on ABC24 News after the Press Club. He was not asked one question. No comment was made on his speech. Who else get this luxury.

    The Opposition is correct in saying that the money spent during the global economic downturn is why we are now facing a stringent budget. Mr. Swan should come out and agree with them.

    Mr. Swan should ask the Treasury to give a report on the actions taken during that time.

    The Treasury should also be asked what the result would be if the money was not spent.

    The Treasury should also be asked to assess what the result would have been of the Oppositions proposals at that time.

    It would be nice to see a report card on the results of the money spent, especially that spent on providing new and improving infrastructure.

    The Treasury should conclude by providing a summary on what the deficit would be in each scenario. It should also include unemployment and bankruptcies figures.

    My belief is that we would be facing a greater deficit, higher unemployment and more people losing their homes and businesses if the quick and effective spending did not occur.

    It is not only about spending money in this situation but spending it quick enough. History and experience overseas has shown that countries wait too long before spending, after the economy has collapsed. If left to this stage, the recovery is much more expensive and history has shown, the unemployment each time takes longer to recover.

    Maybe there was some waste in the school refurbishment and the insulation programme, but not as much wasted that would have occurred across the community if the money was not spent.

    Lost of employment, business or homes is waste of the highest degree.

    I will expect to see many articles in the MSM asking questions along the lines above. I also expect to see pigs flying.

  47. From The Drum, why Barnaby wouldn’t win New England..

    Joyce doesn’t seem to have the where-with-all, or the ability, to filter his erratic thought-process before speaking. What he does have is a history of gaffes and incoherent ramblings. This makes for good newspaper copy, and it’s fun to watch from the sidelines, but only while he is in the “unrepresentative swill” of the Senate. It won’t serve him at all as Nationals leaders in the lower house.

    http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/70998.html

  48. ‘Mr. Swan should come out and agree with them.’

    Sorry Cu, but if he did that, that would be all the soundbite we would get. He is correct to push the one line over and over. It is the way of our media these days. They will of course complain that all they get is soundbites, but since it is all they can report on, it is all they should get.

    The opposition have worked this out, hence the GBT mantra. Labor are slowly coming to the party.

    Take Gillards recent speech, where the press zeroed in on a few key words, and ignored the context surrounding that. Mind you, I think it was what she was aiming for

  49. I’ve just read elsewhere that it is a sign of the ‘esteem’ that Barnaby Joyce’s colleagues in the National Party hold him that they couldn’t find a safe seat in either Queensland or NSW for him to contest at the next election, instead putting him up against the still very popular Tony Windsor. As one of Mr Windsor’s constituents said yesterday in a vox pop: “Barnaby can’t even add up.”
    For an electorate with their MP supposedly on the nose for siding with the ALP to form government, from what I heard, even after the news of Barnaby’s potential candidature, most of the people interviewed yesterday in Tamworth and on the local ABC station, were solidly behind Windsor.

  50. That’s encouraging news, Feral. I wonder if Joyce has caught up with that, or does he unfailingly consider that he is the supreme being that Anal Jones and others drip feed him.

  51. ‘So Tom R, we give up.’

    I don’t think so. But I think if enough examples such as the recent Gillard speech are highlighted, the media might start taking some notice.

    I just saw a talk by Georg Meg about his Quarterly Essay. That looked interesting. If I locate the link again, I’ll put it up. He tackled this subject

  52. It says a lot that the Qld LNP do not want a bar of Barnaby Rubble and it is really a load of horse manure and probably a stunt to detract from the Royals and Julia been up over in the limelight and not down under putting up with said manure.

  53. Bilko, it certainly is starting to not only look like, but smell like a stunt. However Abbott did make a promise not to contest either Windsor or Oakeshott’s seat if they sided with the Liberals and so it could also be one of Abbott’s revenge scenarios also.

  54. What a nasty little turd. If he thinks Joyce is his secret weapon then he’s shooting blanks. I’d love to see Labor trump him with an unbeatable candidate.

  55. There is now also talk that Independent Dr. Richard Torbay Deputy Speaker of the NSW House of Reps will also contest New England…most likely (I should imagine) in the event that Windsor decides to retire.

    However I think that IF Joyce does decide to contest that this will make Tony Windsor very determined to not allow the likes of Barnaby Joyce take charge of his very precious seat of New England.

  56. Poor old Barnaby, it seems that nobody wants him..

    “My first choice is to run in Maranoa, and the reality is that there is a sitting member and the custom in the Nationals is that colleagues don’t challenge sitting colleagues,” Senator Joyce said….

    Mr Truss told The Australian “there is no vacancy” in the safe seat of Maranoa after Mr Scott, the Deputy Speaker of the House of Representatives, made clear he was reluctant to retire from the seat he has held for 20 years.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/people-in-politics/truss-rules-joyce-out-of-seat-as-lnp-firms-up-push/story-fn5oarzd-1226042463898

  57. Min, the coalition appear to be blessed with a couple of members who have no ability to think before speaking. Gobsmacking.

  58. Migs, Maranoa was the Qld seat where they didn’t want him in 2009 and it seems that they don’t want him there now…or in the future…

  59. Min, Tony Windsor seems to be enjoying the Barny show, and I think he’ll stick around for the next term to ensure that his region gets everything he has worked for, and maybe to put in the proverbial “spoke in the wheel”. 🙂

  60. Pip, I agree..Tony Windsor is a true professional. Which is also why the independents will never make Tony’s dreams come true and suddenly decide to swap sides irrespective of any smear campaigns – this is their big chance to effect change and they know that Abbott’s promises are as flexible as his smugglers.

  61. Tom R, thanks for the suggestion about George Megalogenis and Lindsay Tanner. Great half hour listening and watching two very sane, personable and knowledgeable people talk about politics today, both able to be non-partisan and objective throughout. Though I was thrilled at the little slip by GM about it being ‘fortunate’ the three Independents were more intererested in reform and infrastructure than the the money grants offered so carelessly by Abbott.

  62. Ms Gillard told reporters she had confidence about the future of Australian coal and LNG exports despite Australia’s move to a “clean energy future”.

    Hahaha!

  63. El gordo, I can only assume that she has confidence in them being able to adapt to clean energy. Up until now they haven’t been given the option or the incentive. If they don’t adapt then I’d say they’re well and truly stuffed. It’s up to them.

  64. Migs, that’s it and precisely.

    And exactly the same thing has happened over and over when industry has needed to change – do we now pump raw sewerage into our rivers – do we now use landfill to dispose of hazardous waste and why do we no longer use asbestos for insulation?

  65. http://www.news.com.au/national/carbon-price-plan-will-cost-families-a-sasuage-sandwich-says-climate-institute/story-e6frfkw9-1226043193869

    A DETAILED analysis of electricity charges has found that the jump in power bills caused by the Government’s carbon pricing plan would be a snack for most families – the cost of a weekly sausage sandwich.

    Weekly household power bills on average would increase from $37.49 to $39.94 – a difference of $2.45, or $127.40 a year – according to the Climate Institute.

    One thing that has me fascinated (in a perplexed sort of way) is the way that many people have absolutely no interest in taking any sort of personal responsibility.

    So you (the imaginary person) might have an additional bill of $2.45 a week, and if this is a problem for you then you levitate yourself off your derrière and do something to fix it.

  66. ‘…many people have absolutely no interest in taking any sort of personal responsibility.’

    The Denialati do not believe in AGW theory and their rationale is that CO2 doesn’t cause global warming.

    The gap between us is enormous, but I’m prepared to take responsibility…..

  67. El gordo it seems to be a common factor – the self same ones who do not want to get off their backsides and take any action for all sorts of excuses are the same ones who are deniers. A character trait maybe for those who don’t want to leave their cozy little comfort zones. Activists are that for a reason – they see a need to take action and just do it.

  68. Sorry Min, what I meant to say is that I’m a Denialati activist. Better you here it from me in this cafe now, than later.

  69. ‘whether a denialist or not pollution ain’t good’

    I reckon gordo will deny that Min

    He already reckons C02 is great, and not even a pollutant, yet hasn’t taken up the offer of a visit to Mars (without appropriate breathing equipment)

  70. And also in Tokyo..those masks the Japanese wear are nothing more than just a fashion accessory ;). However, Japan is taking action as previous controls have been insufficient…

    Japan, Tokyo – Prefecture of Tokyo has launched a program aimed at reducing emissions of CO 2 Metropolitan Thursday. This plan will impose reductions in emissions in large enterprises, and provides for the establishment of a carbon market to combat global warming. A first in Asia.

    http://www.evejade.com/environnement/pollution-tokyo-launches-a-co2-emissions-reduction-program.html

  71. Yeah, thanx Tom. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant and I have no idea where Julia gets her ideas.

    This week’s Age/Nielsen poll had support for a carbon price at 34 per cent, a fall from 46 per cent in February.

    With no intention of being sexist or ageist, I guarantee that the 34% are predominantly women and young people.

  72. Per se carbon dioxide is not a pollutant, it’s a part of the natural environment – it’s when the environment gets out of balance with too much or indeed too little of any one single component.

    I’m part of the 34% at least one of the criteria 😀

  73. ‘it’s when the environment gets out of balance with too much ‘

    When it then becomes a pollutant.

    Isn’t that the current argument??

    Talk about oblivious ignorance

  74. Precisely Tom, plus you see we humans like to breath a nice balanced mix of the following and in order of highest to lowest concentration – they are Nitrogen, Oxygen, Argon, Carbon dioxide, Neon, Helium, Methane (CH4), Krypton, Hydrogen, and Xenon (with thanks to environmental scientist daughter :)).

    Now until we humans learn to breath something entirely different we really do need to do our bestest to maintain this balance.

  75. Okay, I admit it was sexist and ageist, but that’s what the polls are telling us.

    When Christopher Monckton has his tour you can see for yourself, the tent will be full of old men and women. The older women became sceptical when power bills began to rise.

  76. “the tent will be full of old men and women”..yes probably but then in the old days they didn’t teach very much science at school.

  77. Yes that’s not to be disputed el gordo and there are similiar results in all issues to do with the future/humanitarian issues – perhaps it’s the nurturing instinct to care about the future.

  78. ‘perhaps it’s the nurturing instinct to care about the future.’

    And perhaps that ehne you add together all the femalse + young people, well, thats over 50% of the population anyway.

    I just wanted another excuse to put the link up, it’s hilarious. I also note gordo still has not taken up the offer on Mars?

    Curious that. It only contains naturally occuring substances after all.

  79. …’perhaps it’s the nurturing instinct’….

    Undoubtedly true, coupled with a poor understanding of the science. Now that is a sexist comment and I apologise in advance.

    Reading the Sketetee article above he says ‘could I possibly have made the point any clearer?’ He would have improved his reputation as a journalist if he had sought a second opinion.

    Professor Nicholls said: “The reality is that we don’t know if there is a climate change component in it.” But he did point to a possible connection: water temperatures around Australia that had never been so warm and an unusually strong La Nina.’

    And on the Victorian bushfires: “What you can say is that there is very strong evidence that global warming exacerbated the fire situation.”

    Neville Nicholls is a warmist relying on flawed models.

  80. Tom, I’m still trying to reconcile the little old ladies and their electricity bills argument with the fact that more females (presumably little old ladies included) are more likely than men to believe the science on global warming. I don’t think that I should try to hard 😉

  81. “Undoubtedly true, coupled with a poor understanding of the science. Now that is a sexist comment and I apologise in advance.” So the argument is that more women agree with the science on global warming because they (presumably because they are female) have ‘a poor understanding’ of science.

    A problem with this statement is that we in Austrlia now have more females than males studying science at university level.

  82. Tom, didn’t mean to leave you out of the conversation.

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html

    See, no need to be alarmed.

    Min, there are many disciplines in science and most of the 3000 scientists who believe in AGW are not climatologists. All that aside, it’s the nurturing and emotional side of women which is having the biggest impact on this single issue.

    That’s okay Miglo, I can tell you are a sensitive male like me, but it might be time to have a closer look at the science.

  83. El gordo..I’ll let my daughters know 😉 Eldest has a degree in marine science and youngest is completing her PhD in molecular bioscience (biofuels).

  84. ‘it’s the nurturing and emotional side of women which is having the biggest impact on this single issue.’

    Here I was thinking it was the science?

  85. El gordo, let’s for a moment assume there are no scientists in the world. No one at all to tell us about the climate or whether it is changing or not. Not unlike the situation 9,500 years ago at the end of the ice age where 17% of Australia was to ultimately be submerged by the rising seas.

    There were no scientists to tell the Indigenous people that the ice was melting and the seas were rising. They noticed it themselves and moved accordingly. It must have been a stressful experience for them.

    Let’s come back to the present day. Even without scientists we should be able to detect ourselves that something’s going on with the weather. Even Bill Heffernan, who has lived on a farm for 50 years said that nobody needs to tell him that the climate has changed over 50 years. He sees it for himself.

    Surely you can see it too.

  86. The European biofuels industry are keen to get their hands on useless land in Australia, they may have better luck in Africa.

    Marine science has a definite future, we know very little about our deep oceans. Unfortunately, once these homo sapiens gain the knowledge, they will exploit.

    You already know your daughters understanding on this issue of human induced global warming?

    It is all about the science, Tom, but the matter will initially be settled by politics. The good news is that we can continue linking to our favorite sites for years, I’ll go to Watts or WCR, while you have Real Climate and skeptical science.

    I deliberately chose National Geographic because its a warmist mag.

  87. El gordo, it’s actually China who is the world leader in research into biofuels..it used to be America. UQ works in with both countries as well as Germany.

  88. …’nobody needs to tell him that the climate has changed over 50 years. He sees it for himself.’

    Bill is correct, as the farmers and graziers in my part of the world see it. Drought follows flood in cyclic fashion and generation upon generation in the same spot understand that climate changes.

    The hot dry times from the mid-1970s to 2000 is repeated in the 1920s thru to the early 1940s. In between are cool/wet times of a similar length, so this is natural variability.

    I’ll drop back with an inoffensive link on weather in Australian history.

  89. ‘I’ll go to Watts or WCR, while you have Real Climate and skeptical science.’

    Exactly, you’ll continue to post bullshit. Just because they have a website doesn’t make anything they say true. It just means that they can peddle their stupidity to more people. And more stupid poeple can believe it.

  90. The US has been dumping their biofuel on our shores and I suspect this infant Oz industry will need government subsidies to survive. We may have to wait for the budget.

    ‘Just because they have a website doesn’t make anything they say true.’

    That’s why we read the comments, to understand the scientific arguments and seek honesty over mock loyalty to a particular site. I’ve been snipped by Anthony, bet you can’t say the same.

    Pip, Lindzen is a luke warmer in my book and as for the rest, this is not a conspiracy on either side, the warmists get their money from government and the sceptics are supported by commerce. They call it enlightened self interest.

  91. El gordo, research into biofuels at the universities (with UQ and the Uni of SA having our best researchers in the field) is funded jointly by government grants and big business. Big business is course very interested as they want to be ahead of the pack rather than behind it.

  92. I’ve read enough of wtfuwt to know not to waste my time.

    Obviously, you don’t care about wasting time. You have said yourself you are proud of being a troll at Deltoid. I think that alone speaks volumes.

  93. Thanks for educating me on that, Min. I saw somewhere that biofuels have a large carbon footprint, but that is no concern of mine. The only other point of interest, this food for fuel thingy is political dynamite.

    Tom as I mentioned over at GT, I earned my stripes at Deltoid just talking and getting the other point of view. Any blog worth its salt needs a few contrarians and may I suggest you get out more.

    Miglo, the start of the Holocene was dynamic and the sea level rise extraordinary. I read as much as I can find on that subject and back in time to the previous interglacial.

    The local people adapted as Tasmania was cut off from the mainland and Lake Carpentaria became a salt water gulf.

  94. El gordo you might be interested in the work that is being done at UQ. http://www.solarbiofuels.org/hankamer.php Of note is that the researchers are also required to do industrial feasibility studies, so it’s not just about theory it’s about practical application.

    I should also mention about marine science, the field eldest studied was coastal management. A good number of people with this degree are employed by local government as the vast majority of local governments throughout Australia have of their own accord, decided that they need to plan for the future via their LEPs due to encroaching sea levels due to climate change.

  95. ‘Any blog worth its salt needs a few contrarians’

    Funny, it doesn’t appear to be a feeling reciprocated.

    El Gordo Thread

    Posted on: May 16, 2010 10:40 PM, by Tim Lambert

    By popular request. Comments from El Gordo and folks arguing with him are cluttering up more useful discussions.

    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2010/05/el_gordo_thread.php

    Yea, thats really ‘adding’ to the discussion isn’t it.

  96. Tom this only came after Tim went head to head with Monckton and lost, then he dropped the science and attacked journalists. He was never going to win the award for the best science blog at that rate.

    Deltoidians found me irritating or perhaps even boring, can’t say for sure, but I gained a good education at their expense.

    Min, there is no future in these LEPs because sea levels are not encroaching due to climate change.

    In fact the rate of sea level rise has been at snails pace and is now leveling off, from what I can see they are looking for a way to hide the decline.

  97. Re “Min, there is no future in these LEPs because sea levels are not encroaching due to climate change.” The Councils and the scientists that they employ seem to think otherwise.

    From: http://www.cmar.csiro.au/sealevel/ While this is only the CSIRO I do think that it’s really really worth considering that there is smidgey bit of scientific evidence here.

    This sea-level rise is a response to increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere and the consequent changes in the global climate. Sea-level rise contributes to coastal erosion and inundation of low-lying coastal regions, particularly during extreme sea level events. It also leads to saltwater intrusion into aquifers, deltas and estuaries. These changes impact on coastal ecosystems, water resources, and human settlements and activities. Regions at most risk include heavily populated deltaic regions, small islands (especially coral atolls), and sandy coasts backed by major coastal developments.

  98. El gordo of course all opinion should be taken on board, but one does have to be shall we say a wee bit sceptical when the chief editor of this blog Patrick J. Michaels is a lobbyist for the coal industry.

    “Clientele
    Michaels’ firm does not disclose who its clients are, but leaked documents have revealed that several were power utilities which operate coal power stations. On a 2007 academic CV, Michaels disclosed that prior to creating his firm he had received funding from the Edison Electric Institute and the Western Fuels Association. He has also been a frequent speaker with leading coal and energy companies as well as coal and other industry lobby groups.[3]”

    And..
    “Patrick J. Michaels (±1942- ), also known as Pat Michaels, is a largely oil-funded”.

  99. gordo tells us he has ‘learnt’ stuff from his time trolling at deltoid, and then proceeds to put up a post about the ‘Mars wraming’.

    Either you have real bad short term memory, or you didn’t learn at all.

    His last post reminded me of the Red Dwarf episode where the guys thought they were slowing down, only to realise that they weren’t accelerating as rapidly as they had been. I didn’t click the link, I’m heading out, but if his previous ones are anything to go by, I’d assume it’s a red herring again.

  100. Enjoy your fishing, Tom, but you really should take your head out of that bucket of sand.

    Min, as mentioned before, there is no conspiracy, it’s generally accepted that Michaels has been employed by the coal industry for a long time.

    This is not a moral issue about dirty coal over renewables, the upshot is that fossil fuels can carry ‘base load’ and renewables don’t.

    CO2 does not cause global warming and may be a coolant.

  101. To push my point again, ignoring the experts, I just know that it’s getting hotter. People here in Canberra know that the place is warming without having to be told.

  102. Migs, I live a few hundred Ks to the north of you (on the tablelands) and the people around here think it’s not getting warmer.

  103. There was a man here who went to Tasmania a decade ago in fear of AGW and I haven’t heard from him since, but the majority don’t see any reason to be alarmed about global warming.

    And that’s the way they voted in the State elections.

    Just reading over my guest post at Deltoid and it brought back fond memories, thanx Tom.

  104. Irrespective of “I’ll show you my scientist if you’ll show me yours” – isn’t it still better to have a clean planet than a polluted one?

  105. Yes we all agree on that, from both sides of the political divide, but Julia is wrong when she says carbon dioxide is a pollutant.

  106. By the way it’s carbon pollution not just carbon dioxide, though the thrust of action is against man made carbon dioxide, which can be identified from natural carbon dioxide.

    The reason most of the world is concentrating on reducing man made CO² is that it’s the one gas we can do something about and it has a long atmospheric life so reducing even a small portion can have a significant impact over a long term.

    The opposition deliberately and misleadingly used the term carbon dioxide a couple of months ago in yet another denier attempt to muddy the waters and confuse ordinary people, and it has worked.

  107. Adrian, I have a feeling that the general thrust of the argument is that because carbon dioxide is ‘natural’ and part of the air that we breath then there can’t be anything wrong with it. But of course it’s all about prescribed doses..even arsenic (also natural) is safe in a prescribed amount.

  108. I see the same straw men and furphies deniers use, yet there is the hide to tell others to get their head out of the sand. I don’t think those supporting the science who are the ostriches in this debate.

  109. As you have pointed out Min, what makes a weed a weed when in other areas it’s beneficial, what makes something beneficial to your health in a prescribed dose a toxin over that dose, and what makes an animal or insect beneficial in one ecology but a destructive feral pest in another?

  110. Also Adrian, if nothing else nature is all about balance and this is true concerning all aspects of the natural world, ourselves included.

  111. A native American proverb.
    We don’t inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children.
    Are the climate denialists so sure of their facts that they are prepared to risk their children’s right to a clean planet?

  112. I imagine water is not a pollutant but if you keep your head underwater long enough, it will frown you. Also people have been known to die from drinking too much water. If your ground becomes bogged, your plants will not grow.

    Oxygen is necessary for us to live. Many people today who where born premature are blind because of the oxygen given to keep them alive. Everything used in excess can and does cause damage to our bodies.

    The one thing we have learnt in the last couple of hundred years is that nature is finely balanced and we upset this balance to our detriment.

    Towards the end of last century, we recognised that a hole was forming in the ozone layer leading to the sun causing extreme damage to our skins. The chemicals that was causing the holes to form where banned world wide. New ways of cooling our fridges, air conditioners and pressure sprays were found. The result is that hole is now slowly closing. If the science was true and worked in this situation, why should the science for global warming be any different.

    Everything in our universe can be dangerous or a pollutant if used in excess, even the food we eat every day. I cannot see how screaming carbon dioxide is not a pollutant changes the argument in any way. To me it is an admission that the anti global warming adherents do not have many arguments that make sense.

  113. And we no longer use laudanum (opium) for teething babies, nor is there cocaine in Coca Cola, and no longer are amphetamines prescribed for weight loss.

  114. They say that human induced CO2 is unnantural and we should restrict its use because it creates an imbalance.

    The evidence in support of the proposition is flimsy and in reality the warming that has taken place over recent times is natural and caused by oscilliations on sol.

    There is undeniable evidence to back up this theory and I’m happy to put up some graphs if you want. With Tom out fishing it may be the best chance I’ll get.

  115. “beneficial in one ecology but a destructive feral pest in another?”

    Rabbits is a good example. Maybe also cane toads.

  116. CU, most definitely cane toads as they are highly toxic and their poison will kill any animal, native or domestic. In a balanced environment frogs eat insects, larger animals eat frogs. Cane toads eat insects and frogs and their poison kills other predators including crocodiles. You therefore end up with not much left in the environment they inhabit other than cane toads and herbivores.

  117. El gordo, the composition of air is 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.039% carbon dioxide and then traces of the other gases.

    Human life on earth evolved due to this particular composition..if it had been a different composition then we, and everything alive on this earth would be something completely different. And as we all know get the balance wrong in your fish tank – result, dead fish.

    The amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere has been monitored for over forty years. These measurements show that the carbon dioxide levels have increased every year. Carbon dioxide is known to be a greenhouse gas, which means that increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere could lead to global warming.

    Ref: US Department of Commerce

    It is an undeniable fact that the amount of carbon dioxide has been increasing for over 40 years. Some might argue whether or not humans are the cause of it, but a fact is a fact. We are therefore faced with the question: Irrespective of the cause is it possible to do something about it.

  118. …’increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere could lead to global warming.’

    They use the word ‘could’ because they are unsure.

    On the other hand we have the sun, our solar system’s power house, which influences our climate in a predictable way.

    http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/features.cfm?feature=1319

    Carbon dioxide will continue to increase regardless of what we do.

    ‘Irrespective of the cause is it possible to do something about it?’

    No, nature has its carbon sinks and that will suffice to soak up this benign trace gas.

  119. The evidence in support of the proposition is flimsy and in reality the warming that has taken place over recent times is natural and caused by oscilliations on sol.

    Utter utter crap.

    The sun as a cause has been well and truly debunked a long time ago, even the two original authors of the theory have abandoned it. A recent study yet again proved that the sun cannot be the cause as there is no demonstrable link between solar activity and increases or decreased in the global warming trend over the periods needed to ascertain a significant trend.

    At no time in world history outside of some global cataclysmic disaster or when the world was forming has the planet warmed the way and at the rate it currently is, so it’s not natural, and it just happens that the increase in man made greenhouse gases fits in with the warming.

    Unless your “undeniable” evidence has been reviewed and tested then it is no where near absolute proof, and it doesn’t even have to be absolute, anything with substantive percentage or so would be enough for it to knock off the AGW theory.

    So far every alternate theory about the global warming trend has failed or been debunked and yet the AGW causal model is still the one that most closely fits the empirical data which is why it’s taken so seriously around the world.

    Cue next denier meme. How about making it easy and just give a number from the denier list, like ordering Chinese from menu.

  120. ‘At no time in world history outside of some global cataclysmic disaster or when the world was forming has the planet warmed the way and at the rate it currently is…’

    Mobius you are bordering on satire.

    Check out termination one and two, now that’s what I call global warming.

  121. No, nature has its carbon sinks and that will suffice to soak up this benign trace gas.

    Now I know you are trolling and just rolling out all the bull you can or you really are ignorant of the nature of climate and the carbon cycle.

    How about you tell the latest annual southern ocean study that has just returned and found an ocean soaked with carbon and turning more acidic year on year, a study that is repeated around the world by several agencies and all finding the same thing.

    Environment: Earth’s acid test
    Can marine life adapt to global change?
    The other carbon-dioxide problem

    Just the smallest fraction on the multitude of scientific research going on for ocean acidification due to man made CO².

    Also look up the massive shifts in animal and plant populations and movements due to climatic changes in their habitat, shifts that will cause many to become extinct. This is also unprecedented in such a short time frame outside of a global catastrophe.

  122. There is undeniable evidence to back up this theory and I’m happy to put up some graphs if you want.

    You say I’m bordering on satire and yet you post crud like that, and I could just about quote most of your flakey statements to illustrate it.

    Similar to the way you accuse proponents of AGW as having their head buried in the sand when all they are doing is supporting the majority science and facts as presented to them, when it is the other way round and the deniers who are the ostriches as they deliberately ignore the preponderance of majority facts and empirical data whilst jumping from one meme to another almost week on week in their attacks on the AGW science, even offering debunked and even deliberately deceptive alternatives.

  123. El gordo re “…’increased levels of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere could lead to global warming.’

    They use the word ‘could’ because they are unsure.”

    Yes it could, couldn’t it. But..what happens if you’re wrong….

  124. It always amazes me Min that people who in their everyday lives do things that experts and scientists say could do something, and the empirical and theoretical data backs it up to a high percentage but not an absolute 100 percentage, yet they never give these things a second thought and don’t consider not doing them because there isn’t 100% certainty.

    Yet on just this one thing, man made climate change, and that one thing only do they demand absolute 100% irrefutable evidence, more than 90% is not enough. But then in the same breath they quote or use evidence to the contrary that not only has a very low percentage of fitting the data, but in many cases has been debunked or is proven made up bunkum full of errors.

  125. Adrian, it always amazes me that people don’t do which is just plain common sense. You make a mess – you clean it up.

    But seriously one can place all the factual information in front of one’s nose, compute the data, declare this that and t’other but basically common sense must prevail..but important is the ability to look beyond one’s self and see the future.

  126. But..what happens if you’re wrong….

    That’s why the IPCC felt compelled to include the ‘precautionary principle’, so that the gravy train could keep rolling along.

    I’m not wrong about where in the Holocene we are situated, having just past the Modern Climate Optimum it’s all down hill from here.

    Warmists get bagged for talking about tipping points, but I’ve spotted so many over the years it’s hard to ignore them. Global warming and cooling can be extremely fast, certainly faster than a couple of degrees in a century as proposed by AGW theory.

  127. Re “I’m not wrong about where in the Holocene we are situated..”

    … and does it matter? Dirty air is dirty air..we need to clean up our backyard.

  128. I was wondering when el gordo would roll out the “gravy train” meme, what number is that in the list?

    Keep going and you’ll have all the denialists points racked up in no time.

    I’m not wrong about where in the Holocene we are situated, having just past the Modern Climate Optimum it’s all down hill from here.

    You are utterly wrong. Look at the graph you linked to with no context or article behind it, just the picture, but even that shows how wrong you are.

    Two things immediately stuck out when I looked at it, even though the scale of 10,000 years per division was too rough to make an accurate estimate it’s can be seen that given the worst rate those Terminations come out at around 1º per 400 to 500 years not the 1º per 100 years that is currently occurring.

    Second thing is that by looking at the pattern of that graph we should have been plunging into an ice age several hundred years ago, yet we continue to get warmer not cooler. So far the only explanation that fits the empirical data for the reason we have not gotten cooler is AGW, and that includes ice cores, the very same ice cores that gave the data for the theory of the Terminations warming.

    Then the third point that was not obvious but took a little research was what was the cause of the Terminations. Lots on this and very heavy science way above my head but here is a paper (large PDF): Abrupt change of Antarctic moisture origin at the end of Termination II.

    Now as the events detailed in the scientific studies of the relatively abrupt warming (1º/400-500 years) of the Terminations are not occurring now then why are we warming at an unprecedented rate and not plunging into an ice age as we should be?

    ——————–
    On a separate note. Are you going to proffer the same bits and pieces of cherry picked crap and wild statements here as you have at Deltoid, rehashing the same stuff that you have been shot down with over there?

    If so people I suggest people you go to Deltoid and this thread: El Gordo Thread. Read the replies that unmasks his nonsense, will save you a lot of time and effort attempting to reply to the same falderal he regurgitates here.

  129. Adrian @ 6.07pm I wasn’t even game to mention it re “cherry picking crap”. There is the CSIRO graph compared with a graph on a blog..yoo hoo..it’s a blog..yoo hoo again..it’s not science…

  130. El gordo, one could run around like a chook with it’s head cut off and it’s not going to prove anything.

    It’s not to do with believing or not believing, it’s to do with the fact that if you make a mess then you have the obligation to clean it up.

  131. I mentioned once before, some time ago, that we live on a little rock that fortunately supports our fickle existence. The temperatures in the universe range from -278 to very hot. How hot? 13 and a half trillion times 14 and a half million degrees. In that range we only have a small window from about -40 degrees to 60 degrees which can sustain human life comfortably. Let’s not mess with it.

  132. I agree we will not resolve anything splitting hairs over climate change, both sides have hardened their positions and neither is prepared to give ground.

    So the battle will be fought in the political arena with the conservatives winning everywhere, leaving the warmist activists marginalized and angry.

    In my area the farmers, graziers and coal miners, stood shoulder to shoulder at the NSW election and won a resounding victory for an infant agrarian socialist movement. I suspect Mobius is not one of us.

    ‘If you make a mess then you have the obligation to clean it up.’

    Of course, as long as you don’t mean carbon dioxide pollution – which is an oxymoron.

  133. Just a final point on CO2. Tim Flannery infers the resident time for carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is 1,000 years.

    The IPCC suggests a maximum of 250 years and much of the peer reviewed literature 5-15 years.

    So who will the people believe?

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