Open Thread VIII

We’re up to our eighth page already! Keep talking.

Here is the link to the previous Open Thread:

Open Thread VII

391 comments on “Open Thread VIII

  1. Libs call for more flexible job contracts
    http://www.theage.com.au/national/libs-call-for-more-flexible-job-contracts-20111112-1nd2b.html

    The Coalition has ruled out a return to statutory individual contracts, fearful of a scare campaign about a resurrection of WorkChoices, under which some workers were handed take-it-or-leave-it contracts that cut penalty rates and other award conditions.

    But the opposition is considering ways to make Labor’s ”individual flexibility arrangements” – which must offer workers the same or better conditions than the award – more attractive.

  2. What Does Tony Abbott Have Planned For Australian Workplaces?
    Chris Evans

    Minister for Tertiary Education, Skills, Jobs and Workplace Relations, Leader of the Government in the Senate, Senator for Western Australia

    http://www.alp.org.au/federal-government/news/what-does-tony-abbott-have-planned-for-australian-/

    Tony Abbott has confirmed his plan to “reform” Australia’s labour market and must now provide the details of his industrial relations policy to Australian workers, Minister for Workplace Relations, Senator Chris Evans said today.

    In an address to the conservative think tank Policy Exchange in London, Tony Abbott said the Liberal Party had a six point economic plan which included ‘labour market reform’.

  3. Abbott’s six point economic plan, of course is unknown to the rest of his party:

    1. Brain Fart 1.
    2. Brain Fart 2.
    3. Brain Fart 3.
    4. Brain Fart 4.
    5. Brain Fart 5.
    6. Brain Fart 6.

    Cost in unfunded liabilities = $150 billion plus.

  4. Silvio Berlusconi has stood down.

    Do we now expect the police to move in on him. It is my understanding he has manage to protect himself while in power.

    Italy is a good example of what happens when one man controls the media, especially when that man is PM.

  5. As for workers on contracts. Are not up to 30% or workers already on contracts, mostly short term. any are hired by Lbour Hire firms as well. Maybe they want to go back to the hungry mile, where one lines up every morning.

  6. It is with some relief that I find this issue at last making into the newspapers:

    AN INTELLECTUALLY disabled Indonesian orphan who was found to be a teenager has been freed from an adult Sydney prison and had people smuggling charges against him dropped.

    The boy, from Pantar Island in Timor, will soon turn 16 and has been held at Silverwater jail for almost two years.

    The federal government is under pressure to abandon its prosecutions against such children after an investigation by The Sun-Herald last week revealed that about 50 Indonesian boys enticed into acting as cooks and crew members on asylum seeker boats had been arrested on people smuggling charges and held in adult maximum-security prisons around Australia.

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/disabled-boy-freed-from-adult-jail-20111112-1ncv2.html#ixzz1dWxpeJqx

  7. Child casualties in the war against people smugglers

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-10-29/casualties-in-the-war-against-smugglers/3607994

    It is official policy not to charge children caught in this situation – they are supposed to be deported.

    But it is thought there may be as many as 40 Indonesian boys in jails in Australia.

    The Indonesian consulate is investigating 16 cases of alleged minors in West Australian prisons, two in Victoria, 14 in New South Wales, one in Darwin and seven in Queensland.

    One of the longest detentions involves a 16-year-old boy named Ardi.

    He spent one and a half years in custody before his lawyer managed to obtain enough evidence to prove Ardi was a minor.

  8. Pip, this one has been slipping under the radar for some time. In July I wrote: http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/people-smuggler-fishermen/ – plus we have had comments drawing attention to Indonesian children (and they are because they are minors) incarcerated in Australian prisons on people smuggling charges, for no other reason than they took a job on a boat. If you are an Indonesian youth and a job is offered, you don’t question you grab it.

    It disappoints me sometimes when we have people tugging at forelocks about live cattle exports but who ignore the human rights injustices happening under one’s nose.

  9. Choice have a new website :grin:

    What is your carbon price

    Find out now

    http://www.yourcarbonprice.com.au/

    Unless otherwise stated, the carbon price cost data presented in this tool
    is based on independent analysis by CSIRO and AECOM.
    The Climate Institute worked in partnership with CHOICE and ACOSS in the development of this study.

  10. Pip, do you want to pop that one on Australians for an Honest Media…I will but thought to give you first option given that you thought of it first ;)

  11. Pip, thank you. I hadn’t seen that one. Well, there are people smugglers and there are people smugglers. There are the fat cats in Indonesia and I should imagine their agents operating out of Australia who are more or less ignored. On the other hand we have impoverished Indonesian fishermen/crew members who are clearly the small players in a luctrative ‘business’.

    So we lock up the Indonesian peasant fishermen including children. Certainly there are bound to be ‘pirates’ amongst this lot..so agreed, they are not all entirely innocent nor ‘conned’.

    I do understand why little is in the press re the fat cats, because if the operatives realized that the Feds were onto them it would make catching and prosecuting that much more difficult.

    On the other hand, do we incarcerate Indonesian peasant fisherman, for political purposes only..so as to ‘come down hard…’…

  12. Min, this is your area of expertise

    the ‘nasty reprospective disgraceful people smuggling bill’, is the Deterring
    People Smuggling Bill 2011 which was pushed through the HoR in 54 minutes.

    Anti-people smuggling laws strengthened
    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/antipeople-smuggling-laws-strengthened-20111101-1mtt3.html

    Lawyers call for halt on anti people smuggling laws
    http://www.thenewlawyer.com.au/article/lawyers-call-for-halt-on-anti-people-smuggling-laws/532418.aspx

  13. Min this is your earlier link but bears repeating …

    Disabled boy freed from adult jail

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/disabled-boy-freed-from-adult-jail-20111112-1ncv2.html


    AN INTELLECTUALLY disabled Indonesian orphan who was found to be a teenager has been freed from an adult Sydney prison and had people smuggling charges against him dropped.

    The boy, from Pantar Island in Timor, will soon turn 16 and has been held at Silverwater jail for almost two years.

    and the big fish are far away !!

    According to some reports there are only 5 or 6 big shots organising the boats…surely they could be found !

  14. the ‘nasty reprospective disgraceful people smuggling bill’, is the Deterring
    People Smuggling Bill 2011 which was pushed through the HoR in 54 minutes
    .”

    But Min told me the other day it is not possible to ram things through parliament.

  15. No Neil..I should treat this seriously shouldn’t I (snigger snigger)…

    No it’s not possible to ‘ram things through parliament’ because parliament consists of people who presumably have a brain, therefore everything via parliament is read, assessed and voted on.

    It’s not an aisle in the supermarket where one can ‘ram’ things through…but on the other hand ;)

  16. Well Adam bandt said this
    “Greens MP Adam Bandt told the house the Bill was being pushed through so quickly to stop a court case that will be heard in the Victorian Court of Appeal later this week which challenges the people-smuggling laws.

    “Because this case is coming up we now have an instance where this bill is being rammed through without any proper scrutiny,” he told parliament.

    “We have another instance of Labor and the Coalition working together to diminish the legitimate right of people coming to this country to seek asylum.””

    So bandt says it is possible to ram things through parliament

  17. First time?? Are you sure or are you making stuff up?? He has opposed major ALP policies like the carbon tax and the ALP’s people trading scheme. I do not know if he has opposed everything however.

  18. I know this is a site one does not visit often. It is nice to know how the opposition thinks. It is not bad for a laugh as well.

    “,,,,,,,,,,,,Now the unnecessary and dangerous Media Inquiry chaired by Ray Finkelstein, QC, flirting with regulation, licensing and fit-and-proper-person test for proprietors – decided by whom, on what criteria.

    The ex-judge Finkelstein sending a letter to editors, impudently asking them to explain to what extent “you subscribe to the view that the press has social responsibilities…..”

    http://www.menzieshouse.com.au/2011/11/the-core-of-democracy-is-not-elections-it-is-freedom-of-the-press.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Menzies House%28Menzies+House%29

  19. Well Neil, you could well be right. This is the only one I know he has given full support to.

    The last few days in the senate they oppose but did not vote against.

    Neil, you do realise that it makes no difference if he votes no. The bills are still passed anyway. No difference except for this bill. The Greens voted against it.

  20. Neil, that is confusing isn’t it..clearly a Bill pushed through parliament does not stop a court case. The article is dated 1st November with “the Victorian Court of Appeal” case being heard later that week. Any update?

  21. The Bill rammed through was a modification to a Howard Bill. It went to definition of people smugglers. The Defense were claiming, if people who were assisted to get here were found to be genuine refugees, then they were not illegal, not smuggled., hence the person assisting was not a smuggler.

    The Coalition agreed with the govt to fix the Bill before the case went to court. There are a lot of cases riding on the outcome.

  22. Boy freed after years in prison

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/boy-freed-after-years-in-prison-20111112-1ncym.html

    AN INTELLECTUALLY disabled Indonesian orphan found to be a teenager has been freed after nearly two years in an adult Sydney prison, and had people smuggling charges against him dropped.

    The 15-year-old boy, from Pantar Island in Timor, had been held in detention at Silverwater jail.

    and
    About 50 Indonesian boys enticed into acting as cooks and crew on asylum seeker boats have been arrested on people smuggling charges and held in adult maximum security prisons around Australia.

    In a landmark decision on Friday which could affect dozens more cases involving Indonesians before the courts, the West Australian District Court ruled the X-ray unreliable and the methodology flawed.

  23. Look at what the Bailleau govt is up to now. Federal money for education has not been given to the school, instead held by the State treasury.

    “Federal Schools Minister Peter Garrett said Victoria had accepted more than $9.3 million in funding in June and the Commonwealth expected it to honour its agreement and distribute it to schools.

    ”There is no reason for this not to happen and I would be concerned if the reward funding paid to Victoria by the Gillard government is not used for education as intended,” he said.”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/school-fumes-over-withheld-funds-20111113-1ndul.html#ixzz1dcOKv6Un

  24. Min

    the 2 stories tell the tale.

    Withhold federal money from deserving schools and push for federal funding for the private system, whether in need or not.

    The Gillard government wants all children to have equal opportunity in schooling, the coalition is pushing division.

  25. bl**dy polls. Now we have them analysing how Gillard is “settling” in. Save us from this rubbish, talk policy at least

    Oh dear Michelle Grattan when talking on Tony Abbott almost said he was coming “undone” she quickly swallowed her words and said scrutiny instead.

  26. It is time that the states were given back income tax powers.

    The Federal government could collect the taxes on their behalf.

    This would end the blame game. It would end the over lap of services that occur now between the states and the Federal governments.

    It would make the states fully accountable and responsible for the money they raise and spend.

    It would be an open and transparent process, ending many of the regressive taxes we now have.

    This will not occur, because governments would rather have a raft of hidden taxes.

    Income tax has many positives over other forms of taxation.

    The government responsible for the services will be raising the money necessary for that service.

    This is what we had up to WWW11.

  27. Sue, yes it will be interesting to see how the press play it when Garrett’s recommendations are released..from memory, these are due before the end of this year.

    Will they play it as a more equitable distribution of funding or Government Attacks Your Kiddies.

  28. This could be the next back flip for Tones

    “Tony Abbott’s leadership group confirmed it would not only oppose the mining tax but repeal the small business tax write-offs if elected.

    MILLIONS of small-business owners will secure a tax windfall under the mining tax when they buy new assets up to the value of $6500.
    The write-off for new business assets is on top of a separate measure allowing small operators to claim a $5000 tax write-off for when they buy a ute, car or business vehicle after July next year.
    http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/business-tax-break-in-doubt/story-fn7kjcme-1226193610788

  29. At least those stupid poll stories and the rise of Julia Gillard are unhinging to one person
    Chris Kenny of the Oz, look at this headline
    “Careful, Julia, revival rumours may be exaggerated ”

    Now for a laugh

    “Gillard’s mild recovery in the opinion polls was no more than expected. In the lead-up to the upswing, she escaped the rancour of parliament, bathed in the reflected glory of a royal visit, hosted a clutch of international leaders at the CHOGM summit, stood on the side of the workers and passengers in a populist blame game against the Qantas management’s grounding of the airline, and, importantly, saw the first cut in interest rates for more than two years. And all of this pushed the running sores of the carbon tax and border protection into the background.”

    And a bigger laugh
    “Tony Abbott, who had vowed to maximise daily pressure on the government, eased up a little by deciding to be in London when the Senate finally passed the tax.”

    But the hate for the Greens is not forgotten, here it comes

    “Despite his missed opportunity to denounce the tax’s passage, the Opposition Leader would have been pleased to see the Greens joyously celebrate the vote (rumours of a naked moonlight dance have not been substantiated) because this portrayed Gillard as running someone else’s agenda.”
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/careful-julia-revival-rumours-may-be-exaggerated/story-e6frgd0x-1226193957902

    Always good to start the day laughing

  30. CU

    therapy/strategy sessions with johnnie and hyacinth

    Grattan did almost say “unstuck” and with all those hours on planes, it may have been decided he could hop on his bike and ride to canberra.

  31. Not sure about a laugh, Sue, but Kenny has inspired a shake of the head. Us it any clearer that the OO is an Abbott cheer squad?

  32. Sue at 8.29

    But the hate for the Greens is not forgotten, here it comes

    “Despite his missed opportunity to denounce the tax’s passage, the Opposition Leader would have been pleased to see the Greens joyously celebrate the vote (rumours of a naked moonlight dance have not been substantiated) because this portrayed Gillard as running someone else’s agenda.”

    Of course Chris Kenny would say “Me, you are the one with the dirty pictures”

  33. Roswell

    i suppose I am just laughing at his tears.

    Lunalava
    “naked moonlight dancing” were the rumours by phone, email or private investigators?

  34. Everything ‘journalist’ Chris Kenny writes should be seen through his eyes as a Liberal.
    From wikipedia
    Kenny became a political adviser in 2000, as Director of Strategic Communications for Liberal Premier of SA, John Olsen.
    When Olsen was replaced by Premier Rob Kerin, Kenny became Chief of Staff.
    In 2002 he joined Foreign Minister Alexander Downer’s office as media adviser and was prominent in the handling of issues such as the Iraq War, the Bali terrorism attacks and the AWB scandal.
    He eventually was appointed chief of staff to the Foreign Minister. Kenny also stood for Liberal Party preselection for the Adelaide seat of Unley, but was defeated by David Pisoni, who went on to win in the 2006 state election.

    and
    After the defeat of the Howard Government, Kenny worked as a columnist for The Advertiser in Adelaide and as a television reporter for the Adelaide edition of A Current Affair and as morning talkback radio host for 5AA.
    In January 2009 he was employed as chief of staff for then-Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull. When Turnbull lost the Liberal Leadership, Kenny resigned. He subsequently provided opinion pieces and analysis for The Australian, ABC The Drum and SkyNews.

  35. http://loonpond.blogspot.com/2011/03/chris-kenny-and-shameless-intolerance.html

    Chris Kenny shows how it’s done in Allegations of racism fuels quiet resentments, as he goes about defending the indefensible aspects of recent outbursts by Cori Bernardi and Scott Morrison.

    Catallaxy FilesAustralia’s leading libertarian and centre-right blog
    http://catallaxyfiles.com/2010/12/20/chris-kenny-on-media-bias/
    Chris Kenny on Media Bias

    Chris Kenny had a piece in the Weekend Australian pointing out the left/ALP biased herd mentality of the Canberra Press Gallery, and indeed the media at large.

    and
    Of course they don’t think the are biased, they just think they are “right thinking” and so to be left-biased in their view you would have to be an unreconstructed communist. The ABC is the best example. Our taxes at work.

    Like many others in his Liberal community he probably still looks under his bed every morning…one can’t be too careful abut those ‘reds’.

  36. Would Chris Kenny, senior journalist, regard this as news?
    would he even mention it…of course not.

    26,700 low-income workers in Chifley to pay no tax on super
    November 14th, 2011
    http://www.edhusic.com/2011/11/14/26700-low-income-workers-in-chifley-to-pay-no-tax-on-super/

    Over 26,700 workers in Chifley earning under $37,000 a year will effectively pay no tax on their superannuation, Federal Member for Chifley, Ed Husic said today.

    “This will help hard working people, including mums working part time, contract cleaners, shop assistants, child care workers, hairdressers, aged care and disability workers, hospitality and bar staff, gardeners and many others on low-incomes,” Mr Husic said.

    The Low Income Superannuation Contribution will assist around 3.6 million low income Australians, who currently pay up to $500 a year in tax on their superannuation, save more for their retirement.

    In particular, the superannuation savings of over 2.1 million Australian women, who tend to earn less than men, will be boosted by over $500 million in 2013-14 alone.

  37. Pip, from your link I like:

    Of course, the Coalition plan on scrapping this important reform, ripping away the extra retirement savings from these workers. It’s about time Tony Abbott and the Coalition stopped saying ‘no’ to everything and did what is best for Australian workers.”

  38. Min,
    I also like this
    From 1 July 2012, most low income earners will effectively pay no tax on their superannuation guarantee contributions and the tax refund will be directed into their superannuation accounts.

  39. And the Australian is still attacking Simon Overland. The oz journo also attacked the OPI but I suppose that is because the OPI recommended that the HS and Oz articles on Overland go to the media inquiry.

    “I personally find it abhorrent that the OPI (Office of Police Integrity) chose to recommend criminal charges against Mr Artz for (what) could surely be dealt with by internal disciplinary procedures within Victoria Police.

    “And I wonder to what degree that decision was fuelled by the toxic high-profile atmosphere injected in this case from day one by (former police chief commissioner) Simon Overland.”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/journalist-blasts-police-politics-over-terror-raid-leak-20111114-1neim.html#ixzz1ddeNBP7R

  40. ME @8.00am 13/11, roflmao!

    Pip & Min, the poor sods who run the boats and who get caught and incarcerated are small potatoes. As you say, the fat cats sit safely on shore and insulate themselves from trouble.

    Losing a boat and its crew has little impact on them; they just find another poorly maintained boat and can easily crew it with impoverished boys and men who carry the can in the event they are caught.

    Is there the will to prosecute the real beneficiaries of people smuggling, sitting in their castles, with their mouths close to the ears of those in power?

    Pip @1.31pm 13/11, we’re already rooned! Impoverished families like the Samuelsons are already struggling under the enormous burden of the carbon tax. Oh, wait………

    Sue @7.44am, settling in to what, ffs? It’s not like she’s only just takenn the reins of power. Must be a very slow poll week, or Liealot and the Liars Party has slid further down that slippery poll. lol

    Great super news for low income earners, who will also benefit when the increased tax free threshold kicks in.

  41. Tangible concrete

    That is right, according to News24, APEC is taking tangible concrete steps towards……..

    The remainder of the story lost me as I pondered tangible and hence intangible concrete steps.

  42. Shane @12.18pm,
    Has the pro carbon camp planned a rally as well ?

    I’m thinking the pro carbon crowd are relaxing for a while now that the carbon price laws have been passed. :grin:

    Jane @ 12.28pm,
    the poor sods who run the boats and who get caught and incarcerated are small potatoes. As you say, the fat cats sit safely on shore and insulate themselves from trouble.

    Extradition hearing for alleged Siev X people smuggler
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-14/siev-x-extradition-hearing/3664758

    Extradition proceedings have begun in New Zealand for an alleged people smuggler wanted in Australia in relation to the SIEV X tragedy 10 years ago.

    Maythem Radhi is wanted for allegedly facilitating the voyage of the SIEV X, which sank in international waters off Indonesia 10 years ago, killing more than 350 asylum seekers.

    The Iraqi-born man was arrested in south Auckland in July.

  43. Sue @ 3pm,
    The remainder of the story lost me as I pondered tangible and hence intangible concrete steps.

    Pondering imponderables again ??

  44. Health union boss faces no confidence motion
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-14/health-union-boss-faces-no-confidence-motion/3664956

    Health Services Union head Kathy Jackson is facing a vote of no confidence at the union’s annual general meeting in Sydney today.

    Ms Jackson’s reign as national secretary has been controversial because of her handling of allegations that federal Labor MP Craig Thomson misused union funds before entering politics.

    She referred the allegations that Mr Thomson had misused a union credit card to police.

    He has repeatedly denied all claims of impropriety.

  45. Pip @5.34pm..can we therefore safely say that the allegations against Craig Thomson which lapsed in NSW for lack of evidence have likewise lasped in Victoria – again for want to evidence. So much for the media and their hot juicy gossip. It’s so easy to sling mud but somewhere along the line one has to back it up, plus especially stand up and be counted…be prepared to swear an affidavit for example. In the Craig Thomson case, it seems that no one was actually prepared to do this. Case closed, put up or shut up.

  46. And this nooze from the Oz should give you all cheer.

    ‘LEADERS of APEC nations have agreed to cut trade tariffs to 5 per cent or less on goods that contribute to the growth of “green” industries.’

  47. Tweet

    mrumens Marian Rumens

    Stopped watching #thedrum when idiot raved on about how well Tony Abbott is doing and how he doesn’t need to do anything else (or somesuch)

    I didn’t watch but it was probably an IPA kiddy !

  48. Sue, it bears repeating…this tweeting :grin:

    RevBillCrews Rev. Bill Crews

    Woolworths now own more pokies than Las Vegas’ 5 biggest casinos combined – 13,300 of them. Is this morally wrong?
    #auspol #radiorev

    Greed !

    Who are the major Woolworths shareholders ??

  49. The Mining tax campaign targeting Oakshott

    “Mr Oakeshott said for our local community, it was a “pretty interesting question” being put to the local member of whether the definition of small was under $100 million profit in a calendar year or under $500 million.

    “The mining industry thinks it should be under $500 million … the current legislation is $100 million,” he said.

    Mr Oakeshott said the campaign was good money for local advertising accounts but a waste of money on him.

    He said it was hard to cry poor via an expensive advertising campaign when a sheet of paper with the merits was what was really required. ”

    http://www.portnews.com.au/news/local/news/general/mining-tax-campaign-has-oakeshott-in-its-sights/2357596.aspx

  50. Sue, grumping about the cost of changing the pokie machines is ridiculous.

    The clubs and pubs can find multi millions to pay for an advertising campaign but that is different. Apparently

    It is, frankly, laughable, to suggest that the cost of this exercise would be in the vicinity of $3 billion – an average cost of $15,000 per machine, or the full replacement cost of 60 per cent of Australia’s pokies.
    Poker machines are not space vehicles. They are relatively simple computers running a relatively simple piece of software, and there are plenty of competent game designers in Australia (and elsewhere) well capable of modifying game software to implement $1 maximum bets and reduced maximum prizes.
    I might add that reducing the load-up is a very straightforward matter, which can be implemented very rapidly.

    They wouldn’t be trying to blind us with the complicated technology would they ?

  51. Tweeps beware: Clive alert !!

    POWER MOVE
    Clive Palmer annoyed about carbon tax, so joins Twitter

    http://www.thepowerindex.com.au/power-move/clive-palmer-annoyed-about-carbon-joins-twitter/20111113701?utm_source=The+Power+Index&utm_campaign=435a9c3dd6-The_Power_Daily_11_Nov_2011&utm_medium=email

    “#carbontax ruling favours the multinationals and will hurt Queensland company employing 1,000 Australians,” he tweeted on Thursday.

    The BRW Rich Lister’s move to the social networking service comes as his company Queensland Nickel begins a PR offensive against the make-up of the carbon tax, which passed successfully through the Senate last week.

    Palmer’s Yabulu-based nickel refinery ran a series of half-page ads on Saturday under the heading “things you need to know about the federal government’s carbon tax”.

    Good luck with that Clive.

  52. PM backs uranium for India

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/pm-backs-uranium-for-india-20111114-1nfpf.html


    ”We will not sell India uranium for peaceful purposes – though Canada is preparing to – while policy allows us to export it to countries such as China, Japan and the United States.”

    She stresses that ”we must, of course, expect of India the same standards we do of all countries for uranium export”. These include strict adherence to international arrangements and strong bilateral undertakings and transparency measures, providing assurances the uranium would only be used for peaceful purposes.

  53. An opportunity for sound and fury signifying something

    Julia Gillard
    November 15, 2011

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/an-opportunity-for-sound-and-fury-signifying-something-20111114-1nfi3.html

    Robust debate on uranium and gay marriage is what the Labor conference needs.

    LABOR meets next month in Sydney. As Australia’s oldest and largest political party, we must take our opportunity to speak to the country, to be clear about Labor’s vision for the future.

    Anyone who joins a political party loves an argument. Sometimes those arguments get noisy, but that’s a healthy sign. A party able to hold robust debates is a party full of energy and ideas for the future.

  54. Deport order sparks furore

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/deport-order-sparks-furore-20111114-1nfmd.html

    Advocates said the length of time he has been away from Afghanistan demonstrated the plight of Hazaras who felt it unsafe to return while the war against the Taliban continued. Earlier this year, The Age reported that up to 20 of the 179 asylum seekers returned to Afghanistan after the 2001 Tampa controversy had been killed by the Taliban.

    Australian National University Afghanistan expert William Maley said the government needed to be very careful about sending Hazaras back to Afghanistan as the security situation in Kabul deteriorated.

  55. APEC Forum – Trade Agreement
    Breath of fresh hair as leaders sign green tariff deal

    http://www.theage.com.au/world/breath-of-fresh-hair-as-leaders-sign-green-tariff-deal-20111114-1nfkl.html


    ASIA-PACIFIC nations including Australia have put green energy initiatives at the heart of a new pact aimed at bridging gaps between their economies while bolstering trade opportunities across the region.

    A pledge to cut tariffs to 5 per cent by 2015 on green goods – and to make their economies less energy intensive – led a range of initiatives signed off by leaders of the 21-member Asia-Pacific Economic Co-operation forum meeting in Hawaii.

  56. Apparently the next lift in Julia’s polling is from meeting Obama.

    Nothing she does could be responsible, it’s all outside influences.

  57. Tom R, of course it is. Don’t you know the lady is useless.

    There is no way the PM could do anything to deserve the improvement in the polls.

    Why Mr. Hunt discovered, looking at the polls, that people do not like her because of the lie. Mr. Hunt is a little slow on the uptake, if it has taken this long to discover that.

    The PM does look happy and confident on the worlds stage.

    It is funny how other leaders, including the USA President seem to respect and like her. It is amazing how someone so stupid could earn smiles and hugs from these leaders. They must feel sorry for her.

    Other leaders could not really like her. We all know the one lie is enough to condemn her for ever.

  58. @11.43 last night I had a link to a story on Oakshott and the ad campaign being run in his electorate by the Mining lobby. Comments on this story are all positive for Oakshott,

  59. Well one wit in the comments said at least Mr. Abbott now has a policy.

    That soldiers be allow to bear berets.

  60. Sue, there is no reason that Mr. Oakeshoott should get bad comments.

    During the election, he supported, NBNCo, Cost on carbon emossions and the MRRT.

    He has helped deliver these to his electorate.

    The voters did not vote for the Opposition.

    What is the problem.

  61. It appears that the berets is an old story from last year. There is health and safety reason for hats.

    Read the comments if one follows the link.

    Someone is becoming a joke. Good.

  62. November 2011 is shaping up as the warmest on record for the Brits.

    Don’t see why I have to do the cherry picking?

  63. Sue @ 8.52am

    Thanks for the link earlier regarding Rob Oakshott

    It is the mega media, big business and the opposition barrackers that claim the Independents are gone at the next election. They scare monger because the big two like to keep control. One or the other. Neither likes to lose out to a third party or independents. Hence the hysteria against the Independents and the Greens. The mud slinging is getting pretty despicable.

    At least the ALP have had the foresight to negotiate and respect the other MPs

    The actual electorate however can see through the spin and false accusations. The actual proof will be at the next election and naturally we have the coalition cheer squad over two years out screeching that the independents are dead and buried, they are traitors etc,etc.

    What utter garbage, they secured funds for their electorates by negotiating with the power they found themselves in. I would expect any local member to do the same. problem is most of them are lackies of the big too and shacled to party policy, not independent policy for the benefit of their own constituents.

    I vote Independent because I want an independent member not a big party lacky.

    Hysteria against independents and the greens could well be a noose around the coalitions neck should the next election also be a cliff hanger. However ask the coalition and it will be a landslide to them so there is no need to be nice to independents or the greens and we will treat them with contempt.

    Problem with that strategy is that their eggs are all in 1 single basket, because if I was an independent or a green I would remember the way I was treated by the coalition and big business.

  64. ” vote Independent because I want an independent member not a big party lacky.”

    Shane you should be respected for voting Independent as those who vote for the major parties.

    It is shocking that the Coalition does not respect your vote.

    If I was an independent or Green voter, I would be angry at the way one is treated by some major parties.

  65. CU @9.02

    I follow the regional newspapers and until now any Oakshott story in Port macquarie was flooded with negative comments. This was despite Oakshott having good turnouts for his public forums. So a change in the comments is a change for how the attack on him is being run.

  66. A blurring of facts for a possible political gain.
    The UNE has received a grant from the ARC for $1.2 million. The ARC is a federal government program administered by Kim Carr. But look how the story is reported in Armidale, this from the second paragraph

    “Duty MLC for Northern Tablelands, Sarah Mitchell, said it was a great achievement for the University of New England.

    “This grant award underlines the University of New England’s value in knowledge generation, and the NSW Government is determined to work with our research community and industry to harness the value from this research. Research and scientific advancement play a crucial role in supporting the NSW economy, strengthening our competitiveness, productivity and innovative capacity” Mrs Mitchell said. ”
    http://www.armidaleexpress.com.au/news/local/news/general/une-given-12-million-boost/2356776.aspx

    The story does not mention Federally funded grant, the inference a NSW govt initiative. Another blurring of facts by the Bailleau govt or a poor story by Armidale express.

  67. I have a feeling that by election could be interesting.

    “Not Baillieu should read O’Farrell.in above”

    Sue, doesn’t really matter. There is not much difference between them. It is just that O’Farrell is getting there quicker.

  68. CU

    I probably used the word lacky out of context as I also respect a members decision to join a party. I personally prefer politcians to be independently minded rather than only allowed a conscience vote when it suits an organisation. The Coalition cannot abide unions yet their own party requires loyalty and support of the party organisation and policy otherwise removal could eventuate. A hypocrisy I find eye opening.

    Sue

    Who owns the Armidale Express ?

  69. Yes Sue. The O’Farrell government has been taking a lot of credit for initiatives and programs that have not been their own whilst blaming the growing string of failures on the previous Labor State government, of whom they constantly said did nothing.

    So we have a Liberal State government mostly doing nothing taking credit for the things done by a previous government they said did nothing.

  70. Australia PM calls to lift ban on India uranium sales
    http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/11/15/idINIndia-60526520111115

    Australian Resources Minister Martin Ferguson, who has just returned from India and who has championed uranium sales to the country, said a change in policy would normalise Australia’s bilateral relationship with India.

    “It is about time we fronted up to the fact that India is a responsible nation. They have a desire to assist their community to get out of poverty, with 40 percent of the population having fewer than 12 hours of electricity per day,” Ferguson told Australian radio.

    Greens leader Bob Brown condemned the proposal, and said selling uranium to India would encourage a nuclear arms race.

  71. Hey Pip

    As Tony likes dress up do you think there is any chance he could visit Fukushima, similar clothing required and it may help him formulate a policy on nuclear policy.

  72. Another dress up opportunity for a sustainable fishing policy, the shark wrestlers of the tuna farmers in SA.

    .

  73. Apparently Europe are abandoning Nuclear Power at an amazing rate, since Fukushima, as their citizens deem any risk at all, to their health, totally unacceptable, when completely safe alternatives are available, even if they are more expensive at the moment.

  74. Philippines president considers visit to Australia
    http://australianetworknews.com/stories/201111/3365679.htm?desktop

    President Aquino has received Australia’s support for the Philippine proposal to declare the South China Aea as a Zone of Peace, Friendship and Cooperation.

    President Aquino’s spokesperson says Prime Minister Gillard noted that 20 per cent of Australia’s exports pass through the South China Sea, highlighting the importance of the region to her country.

  75. This is the one that I want to see get LOTS of publicity…

    Businesses that incorrectly attribute price rises to carbon pricing are being scrutinised by the competition watchdog.

    The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC) on Tuesday launched a guide for businesses on carbon price claims, responding to Federal Treasurer Wayne Swan’s directive to make its regulation a priority.

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-business/dont-overstate-carbon-price-impact-accc-20111115-1ngh0.html

  76. Min

    The other day I had a piece on how O’farrell has said he wants the energy companies to put the full impact of the carbon tax on bills and if they didn’t he would make legislative changes to make them. By full he meant any investment cost of alternative energy, solar bonus schemes etc. So if the ACCC disagrees with the calculation, who pays the fine?

  77. Pip, I can read that soldier’s mind..he is thinking What a dope!

    Sue, it would seem that if the energy companies can prove that the extra costs on their bills are a direct result of the carbon tax..then fine. If they cannot, then they will come foul of the ACCC. O’Farrell can take a flying leap.

  78. Disappointing: Turnbull hasn’t fleshed out his NBN plan
    http://delimiter.com.au/2011/11/15/disappointing-turnbull-hasnt-fleshed-out-his-nbn-plan/

    All of the Member for Wentworth’s strengths were on display for the occasion. His humour — poking lightly at “lean as a whippet” Tony Abbott and describing Paul Keating as “the Kim Kardashian of politics”; his charisma — charming the audience with his deflections of the difference between official Coalition policy and his own views and making self-referential jokes to his leather jacket fetish — and his classical liberalism; turning the Qantas’ grounding debacle into an argument for the free markets.

    and
    On the night, we heard nothing from the Shadow Communications Minister about the National Broadband Network. Nothing about the digital economy. Nothing about Labor’s Internet filter project. Nothing about fibre to the node, spectrum allocation, broadband pricing, HFC competition in Korea. Nothing at all. And I realised that this has become a bit of a trend with Turnbull recently.

  79. Some Great Big New Facts – On Tax
    http://stephenkoukoulas.blogspot.com/2011/11/some-great-big-new-facts-on-tax.html

    A few ill informed commentators enjoy rattling off the changes to the tax coverage in the four years since Labor won the 2007 election. They try to create an impression that the current government “is addicted to tax”.
    It is also a line the Opposition have used when trying to attack the government over the flood levy, the price on carbon, the mining tax among other things.

    Unfortunately for them, the claim of “tax addition” is not supported by any facts.

  80. Pip
    Re the deportation. I think in the article a bit more of the story needs to be told. Uk and Ireland rejected the application, on what grounds?
    He flew to Australia on a forged passport, both take money, where did it come from?. Was he picked up at the airport or after arriving did he come forward to apply?.

  81. Re the Abbott photo, where’s Gai Waterhouse when you need her to make a comment on how unbelievably dorky someone looks. Just finished the Susan Mitchell book “Tony Abbott A Man’s Man”. Does he really think those soldiers would be saying to themselves “Arr… but Tony can come along, he’s OK.” He once said he’d asked to go on a patrol.
    Or are they just props, to be discarded when no longer useful, as one does with a broom?

  82. India tests long-range nuclear-capable missile

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gjYeqjfAI_qVl5dYLcqwy8igSTHQ?docId=CNG.e7097baaf0cac3cf07a994d1d9ba8139.451

    BHUBANESHWAR, India — India on Tuesday successfully test fired one of its longest range missiles capable of carrying a one-tonne nuclear warhead deep inside China, officials said.

    A Defence Research and Development Organisation spokesman said the Agni-IV missile was launched at 9:00am (0330 GMT) from a test site in the eastern Indian state of Orissa.

    “All the parameters have been met and it was a very successful test,” DRDO spokesman Ravi Gupta told AFP.

    He said the nuclear-capable, two-stage missile which is powered by solid fuel was fired beyond the Bay of Bengal into the Indian Ocean. Agni means fire in Sanskrit.

  83. The denialati sink further into the abyss with one of the most despicable attempts to smear I think that I have ever seen in this whole sorry saga

    Climatologist Michael Mann works at Penn State. Penn State is going through a horrific and inexcusable child-sex-abuse scandal. Ergo….

    Yes, two of the top climate science deniers on the web, Steve McIntyre at ClimateAudit and Anthony Watts of WattsUpWithThat, actually went there.

    http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/11/13/367301/desperate-deniers-penn-state-climate-scientist/

  84. There is a fantastic post up over at Skeptical Science with an accompanying image that exposes the denialati’s favourite ‘argument’ clearly.

    One of the most common misunderstandings amongst climate “skeptics” is the difference between short-term noise and long-term signal. In fact, “it hasn’t warmed since 1998″ is ninth on the list of most-used climate myths, and “it’s cooling” is fifth.

    http://www.skepticalscience.com/news.php?n=1095&p=2

    Pretty sure it won’t stop the nonsense, but is a usefull tool anyways

    Initially located from here

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2011/11/16/it-hasnt-warmed-since%E2%80%A6/

  85. Great graph Tom and interesting argument, I’ll borrow the Crikey link and see what the sceptics think. No doubt they will have something to say.

  86. I’ve just had my hair cut and I look absolutely spiffing.

    I had to sprint like a startled gazelle back to the office to avoid being mobbed. :shock:

  87. Great, now you’ve got time to clean Tom’s fridge magnets while we get on with the kitchen duties . . . before a cellar tour . . . minus Bacchus.

  88. Hang on Migs..I’ve just got to go and unblock the septic and run the handmower around the Café’s extensive lawns (one day the cheapskate will buy one of those new fangled petrol mowers), then I’ll be straight onto Tom’s fridge magnets.

  89. It is said over at Menzies House that Mr. Abbott has made two mistakes. That is siding with the Greens on two occasions.

    Does that mean that Mr. Abbott was wrong to oppose the migration bill?

  90. Just saw the best bit of reporting on Tim.
    There he was walking home and he said I only have to walk 100 metres.

  91. Sue I watched in horror as “The first dude” walked the mean streets of Canberra without security, you know Security guards in dark glasses, helicopter interceptors in the sky, bullet proof limo, motor cycle police escort, anti electronic blackout so that people could not use their mobile phone detonators, what is this country coming too.

  92. What is this country coming to? I think it’s trying to be Australia again after Howard tried to turn us into the 51st state of the USA. That was something Liberal prime ministers have had a fancy for since Holt.

  93. Yeah and look what happened to Holt, that Chinese submarine and stuff. Unfortunately “All the way with LBJ” seems to be making a come back big time.
    Sell yellow cake to India? What about the second part of the deal Howard agreed to with Halliburton, you know, nuclear waste dump in central Australia (to stop terrorists of course).
    We sell the uranium for peanuts they get the power and we take back the waste – what a dud deal!

  94. BSA Bob @ 3.06pm,

    Pip at 2.30a.m.
    Saw the hat, ….Does the RSPCA know about it?

    ….Bob, I believe they’ve issued an ALL POINTS bulletin :grin:

  95. Mr. Minchin and other royalist claim the Queen is not our head of State or Government.

    They claim the GG is.

    If this is true, why did not the Queen sign the visitors at Parliament House as the President just has.

    According to ch10, it is because she was not a visitor as she is head of government and state.

    I think the Constitution says the same thing.

  96. I haven’t seen a UFO for two weeks, maybe three. I need to get out more.

    Maybe something big is about to happen.

  97. Cu,
    Mr. Minchin also thinks that the climate change story is a left-wing conspiracy…
    he means a communist plot ….

  98. $100m lost on ACT pokies
    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/100m-lost-on-act-pokies/2360813.aspx

    Canberra’s pokies losses reached a four-year high of more than $100million in 2010-2011 while the capital’s gambling barons were slashing their donations to good causes by more than 11 per cent.

    And one club bought itself a new gambling venue with associated commercial property and then tried to write-off the $5.2 million purchase price as a “community contribution”.

  99. Facts fly under the radar
    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/facts-fly-under-the-radar-20111116-1nj57.html

    Conservative commentators on the Qantas grounding are playing loose with the truth.

    IN GROUNDING the entire domestic and international Qantas fleet last month, the firm’s chief executive, Alan Joyce, claimed the action was the only way to stop the unions’ industrial campaign. The implication was that grounding the planes was the only way to have Fair Work Australia (FWA) intervene and order a stop to all industrial action.

    In the weeks since, a number of anti-union ”cold war” industrial relations warriors, including Peter Reith, Chris Corrigan, economist Judith Sloan and coalition politicians, have thrown themselves into the debate, questioning the efficacy of the Labor government’s Fair Work Act. The common theme is that the grounding of the Qantas fleet demonstrated the weakness of the act, because the company had no other way to get FWA to order a cessation of all industrial action other than by grounding its entire fleet. This is patently untrue.

  100. Last week in this thread (nov14, 7.12) I had the story on the Vic school that had had its federal funding withheld by the Bailleau govt.

    According to M Parker, the State govts are in for an even bigger shock as the federal govt takes more control of the education sector.

    “The Federal Government is taking over all the big decisions around schooling – from funding to what will be taught and how schools should be run – while the NSW state government fusses over things like exactly how many minutes of school time should be made available to volunteers for the teaching of scripture.
    The difference in educational concerns at state and federal level are now stark.
    The national partnerships used by Gillard are perhaps not such blatant blackmail but the bottom line is you must agree and participate or lose the money. ”
    http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/maralynparker/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/gillard_wields_big_stick_in_education/

    So when Garret commented about the Vic school situation, I didn’t realise how big a stick he held.

  101. Liberal Senator found guilty of assault
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-18/mary-jo-fisher-shoplifting-judgment/3678996/?site=sydney

    Liberal Senator Mary Jo Fisher has been found guilty of assault but not guilty of shoplifting, in Adelaide Magistrates Court.

    She faced charges after a visit to a suburban supermarket late last year.

    The Senator was accused of stealing $92 of groceries.

    I suppose when the store videos became unavailable the shop lifting would be unprovable ….

  102. Pip, Fisher is very lucky to get off the shop-lifting charge. However, the magistrate is clearly going back to the basis of all criminal law mens rea aka intent. Therefore due to the panic attack she has been let off the shop-lifting charges but that the magistrate said that she did intend to attack the guard.

    Something is not quite right with this picture..should it not be the other way around? That she did intend to steal the goods but that the assault on the guard was due to a panic attack.

    But then they say that she suffered a panic attack ‘while in the store’. No reason has yet been provided.

  103. I see that Fisher’s lawyers are asking that no conviction be recorded. Why should Fisher be treated differently, ask any kid who king hits a mate in a barney outside the local, their convictions are almost always recorded.

  104. Bacchus, yes indeed. However to then state that there was no panic involved when Fisher assaulted the guard seems odd. Surely if she was in a state of panic inside the store then it is entirely reasonable that she would be in a similar state having been intercepted by a security guard.

  105. Quite possibly Min, although not necessarily. I guess what the magistrate is saying is that the panic attack had passed by the time she was intercepted by the guard. Although being intercepted would be stressful, it wouldn’t necesssarily precipitate or prolong a panic attack – it could in fact have the opposite effect of bringing her back to reality…

  106. I also assume that this is her first convistion of any sort. Most people, pollies or not, are generally dealt with leniently by the law on their first offence. I don’t think there is much there in that.

    What was worrying was the political influence that went on early in this, with the scrubbing of the video etc. I mean, as soon as an offence occurs, the video is generally quarantined immediately. The fact that the lib representatives got down there and next thing we know the video is scrubbed. That reeks.

    Personally, I reckon they should just leave her alone now. Let the constituents decide at the next election.

  107. Only that Tom, and I might be wrong here, a convicted pollie cannot remain in politics and I also believe lose their entitlements.

  108. Only if they’re convicted of an offence that carries a sentence of at least a year in jail ME… That’s why the Lieberals are all over Craig Thompson…

  109. Tom R,
    Personally, I reckon they should just leave her alone now. Let the constituents decide at the next election.

    Good idea.

    Interesting about the videos !!

  110. Pip, I can’t locate a reference to this as yet..it wouldn’t surprise me, but I wouldn’t mind reading the exact reason for no conviction recorded.

  111. SA Senator Mary Jo Fisher guilty of assault but cleared of shop-lifting

    http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-senator/story-e6frea83-1226198641856

    LIBERAL Senator Mary Jo Fisher has escaped penalty for assaulting a Foodland security officer, with no conviction or fine imposed.
    Today Magistrate Kym Boxall cleared Fisher of stealing goods from the supermarket at Frewville last year. But Mr Boxall said Fisher did use force against store security officer Cathryn Groot.

    He did not record a conviction or impose a penalty.

    Mr Boxall said Fisher assaulted Ms Groot as she tried to leave the premises by pushing her out of the way of her car and slamming the driver’s side door into Ms Groot’s arm several times.

    Mr Boxall said Fisher did so in the context of suffering from a panic attack and the associated symptoms, and was seeking personal space.

    “(Fisher) was intent upon achieving her own objectives of leaving the store and getting in her vehicle, and she decided to use physical force against Ms Groot, because Ms Groot was preventing her from doing what she wished to do,” he said.

    “There is no genuine self-defence issue in this case.

    “I accept that the assaults occurred because the defendant was extremely unwell and still experiencing the symptoms of a panic attack, and her actions reflected an urgent desire on her part to leave the store and deal with those symptoms by herself.”

    For information or help with depression contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or SANE Helpline on 1800 18 SANE (7263).

  112. You may as well leave her there. They might replace her with someone worse.

    We might get another dance, instead of a speech, you never know.

  113. I have just read an article on the north coast voices blog. The article on a phone poll is a good example of a ‘push poll’. But I ask is push polling illegal? Should the poll described be referred to the state electoral commission?

  114. Pip @12.12pm..ta..it is important whether or not a conviction is recorded because if recorded Fisher will have to stand down. If the conviction is not recorded, then she is under no obligation to do so.

  115. Min

    Is something wrong with Mary Jo or have I got the idea of guilty wrong?? Reports say she is guilty of assault but no conviction reported. Mary Jo outside the court was saying that charges of assault were dismissed.

  116. That’s an interesting one Min. A hypothetical – if she was convicted of the assault offence (Max penalty 2 years imprisonment), and sentenced to a correctional order or a fine, would she still be required to stand down?

    To save you looking it up, the constitution says:
    Disqualification
    Any person who:
    (ii) is attainted of treason, or has been convicted and is under sentence, or subject to be sentenced, for any offence punishable under the law of the Commonwealth or of a State by imprisonment for one year or longer…
    shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

    Note: The qualification of a senator shall be the same as those of a member of the House of Representatives.

  117. Bacchus, the rules are clear. The answer is yes. However, if she is awarded ‘no conviction recorded’, although guilty Fisher would be under no onus to stand down.

    This is what her lawyers were requesting: no conviction recorded.

  118. It might not be an issue, I found this:

    The magistrate agreed to a defence request not to record a conviction or penalty for assault.

    http://www.3aw.com.au/blogs/breaking-news-blog/mary-jo-fisher-found-guilty/20111118-1nmgj.html

    This clearly is nothing more than a report from 3AW in Melbourne.

    Also is:

    1977 Referendum Casual Vacancies

    Under Section 15 of the Constitution Senate positions becoming vacant before the expiration of the term for which the holder was elected (or chosen) are filled by Senators chosen by the Parliament (or appointed by the Governor with the advice of the Executive Council) of the respective State. Senators chosen under this provision hold office for the remainder of the term of the previous occupant.

    Following the political controversy surrounding the appointment of Senators CE Bunton and AP Field to fill casual Senate vacancies in 1975, the Constitutional provisions for filling casual Senate vacancies were changed by an amendment in 1977.

    The amendment was an attempt to entrench in the Constitution the practice that Senators chosen to fill casual vacancies should be from the same political party as the departing Senator. It was the perceived flouting of this practice that led to the requirement for the constitutional alteration.

  119. Thanks for that Min.

    Sue, my understanding is that she’s wrong. She was found guilty of assault and convicted, but no conviction was recorded. That doesn’t seem to make logical sense, but is just a bit of legalese which has to do with how the conviction is treated in other matters, eg. employment.

    Have a read of this – it may be clearer:
    EFFECTS OF CRIMINAL CONVICTIONS

  120. Bacchus, spot on of course no conviction recorded is common practice for those up on a first offence and especially where a criminal record might effect one’s employment. This basically means that she is guilty but as stated ‘no conviction recorded’. This does not equate with being found innocent.

    There might be howls of protest from those who might have wanted to see Fisher thrown out on her backside, but she cannot be treated differently from any other citizen in similar circumstances.

    Now, IF it can proven that Fisher has been given preferential treatment..that is an entirely different story.

    Personally, I think that Fisher should back out of the room..and quietly.

  121. What is it with female Liberal/LNP politicians ripping off old men?

    THE Public Trustee today began steps to reclaim “a large amount of money” it alleged a Logan City Council councillor wrongly moved from a joint account with an elderly man.

    In the Supreme Court in Brisbane, David Jackson, QC, for the Public Trustee of Queensland, asked for a summary judgment declaring the money should have been held on trust by Hanjal Black for the elderly man because he lacked capacity to administer it.

    However, Mrs Black’s lawyers have withdrawn and she was left to appear for herself today before Justice David Boddice.

    In a civil case, the Public Trustee has alleged Mrs Black misused funds from the $2.25 million sale of the 66-year-old man’s property at Park Ridge.

    Mrs Black has also lodged a civil matter counter-claim against the Public Trustee, seeking the man’s home at Greenbank be signed over to her.

    Court hearings have been told Mrs Black and the elderly man established a joint bank account where the money was eventually placed.

    It is alleged she then transferred most of it into her own account.

  122. If you get a chance have a look at MJ outside court, she definitely said”dismissed”. If she is trying to rephrase the magistrates words, than she may not be ready to come back to work

  123. Sue, if Fisher is claiming that the case was ‘dismissed’ then she is telling pork-pies big time. According to all current reports she was convicted but given a suspended sentence.

    If you could do the hearing bit for me on this one, it would be much appreciated.

  124. Meanwhile I think they should let her stay as a great example of a Liberal party choice of someone suitable to represent Australians in Parliament.”

    That really is a stupid and nasty comment. Both sides of politics have people that have caused trouble. Here in NSW the ALP had lots of them, for example.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Orkopoulos

    “Milton Orkopoulos (born 22 July 1957) is a former Australian Labor Party politician, and convicted criminal. …………………In November 2006, New South Wales Premier Morris Iemma sacked him as after he was charged with child sex and other offences. The following week, he resigned as MP for the state electorate of Swansea. On 14 March 2008 Orkopoulos was convicted on charges relating to child sex offences and the supply of drugs. In May 2008 he was sentenced to 13 years jail.”

    So what is you point patriciawa??????????????????

  125. Neil, I think Patricia was trying to be witty. She was successful in that. It certainly wasn’t a nasty comment, unlike your response to her. Lighten up mate.

  126. Here in NSW the ALP had lots of them, for example.

    As have the Liberals, it’s why they were out of power for so long.

  127. Yes Sue I saw that interview and immediately though she is already attempting to rewrite history, as the Liberals and their supporters always do.

    Wonder what the judge would have thought of that statement.

  128. As have the Liberals, it’s why they were out of power for so long.”

    Actually that was sort of the point i was trying to make.

  129. “I didn’t find it funny.”

    So, does that mean we have to pass everything by you to find out if your distinct lack of humour or sense of wit has been disengaged?

  130. But you only pointed out the ALP Neil, ergo: “Here in NSW the ALP had lots of them, for example”.

    but then you went on to only list one and not lots at all. You did what you usually do when a negative spotlight is on the Liberals, “quick look over there at the ALP.”

  131. Neil

    “That really is a stupid and nasty comment”

    Funny how it is always a comment regarding a politcian of the coservative side of politcis that you find offensive. Don’t remember you taking offence at any derogatory comments against any ALP memeber of parliament including the PM at any site you comment on.

    You quote the likes of Alan Jones and Co from Shock Jock Radio at times through links of comments they say in the media. Did you watch the Hamster Wheel on Wednesday night and the “Actual Sound Archives” of what they have said and read out from their listeners about our PM. Now that was offensive and disgusting. It wasn’t invented it was actual recording of their shows Neil so it is not rumour or inuendo or allegations but rather fact.

    You may wish to catch up on the terrible vitriol against our PM by watching it on iview.

  132. Don’t remember you taking offence at any derogatory comments against any ALP memeber of parliament including the PM at any site you comment on.

    I was annoyed at the comment by patriciawa because she was trying to paint the whole party, not just MJ with the same brush. Both sides of politics have there fair share of corrupt politicians. It is not a Liberal party thing as patriciawa was trying to make out.

  133. Amazing. An article about Foreign Minister Rudd, and not a word about ‘leadership’.

    Kevin Rudd rejects China concerns on Australia-US ties
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15786728

    Australia has dismissed concerns that its deepening military ties with the US could anger China.

    Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd said Australia would not have its security policy dictated by any external power.

    “We don’t seek to dictate to the Chinese what their national security policy should be,” he told ABC News.

    This week Australia revealed it had agreed to host a full US Marine task force by 2016, amid angry comment in Chinese state media.

  134. “I was annoyed at the comment by patriciawa because she was trying to paint the whole party, not just MJ with the same brush”

    Neil you are guilty of exactly the same thing almost every day. The ALP is full of liars, you don’t trust anything any of them say, they are all corrupt etc etc.

    “Both sides of politics have there fair share of corrupt politicians”.

    I totally agree but this is the first time you have ever acknowledged the fact so please show me where you have ever reported on a corrupt politician from the conservative side of politics.

    I have had to point out to you on numerous occasions that not all ALP MPs and their supporters are liars or scum.

  135. Pip, I should imagine that Kevin Rudd knows more about Chinese diplomacy than the entire Labor and Liberal parties put together. China is a far different culture, and I think that we can trust Rudd to know what he is doing. One day, who knows Kevin might even receive recognition for being Australia’s most outstanding Foreign Minister. We already have Wayne Swan being the World’s most outstanding Treasurer.

  136. Min, it’s also KR’s 30th wedding anniversary.

    Kevin Rudd and Therese Rein ring in their 30th wedding anniversary

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/entertainment/confidential/rudd-and-rein-ring-in-30-year-anniversary/story-e6freq7o-1226194029488

    KEVIN Rudd and Therese Rein have clocked up 30 years of marriage, with the former prime minister declaring his wife deserved an Order of Australia for sticking by him.
    It’s a point he admitted he made to Ms Rein when the pair celebrated their anniversary in Sydney at the weekend.

    “She responded with what I’d describe as a knowing smile,” Mr Rudd told The Courier-Mail.

  137. There is debate elsewhere on Bill Gammage’s book ‘The Biggest Estate on Earth’, with the conclusion (for me at least) that the early inhabitants made little impact on the bushfire regime which had been in place a long time.

    http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20111702-21856-2.html

    Undoubtedly the aborigine used fire as a tool, but the Arcadia which Europeans saw on their arrival was not knowingly created by primitive hunter gatherers.

  138. Migs, would certainly be our expert on Aboriginal culture and fire-stick farming. I’m not 100% whether it’s a topic that Migs has written about here or whether he mentioned that this was part of his Honors thesis, somewhere during a different topic. Either which way, I’m sure that it’s not a high priority on his birthday ;) But I am certain that he will get back as soon as he can.

    I would have to view it from the environmental angle, and my knowledge is mostly to do with dry sclerophyll forests. I would say that early human ancestors observed the natural occurences, the way that following a fire it opened up the canopy and allowed the growth of the understory. The growth of the understory then encouraged game animals into that particular territory. I would never say that the Aboriginal people ‘created’ the environment but rather that they encouraged it. For example, some areas which may not have been subjected to natural burning off were encouraged to do so by the Aboriginal fire-stick farmers.

  139. While I agree there have been bushfires for as probably as long as their have been trees, humans all over the planet not just in Australia learnt the benefit, as well as how to use, fire to their advantage’ when opening up areas and driving out game for hunting.

    While I believe aboriginals would have indeed contributed to the shrinking of rainforst species and the expansion of the eucalypt I do not believe it would have been intentional to alter the environment in the way that eventuated.

    It simply would have been survival skills handed down from generation to generation.

    Fire is still used by the indonesians as an easy way to clear and devastate rainforst and replace with palm trees for oil. Our demand drives their destructive ways.

  140. Min, the legislation was changed in 1977 for a very good reason.

    It was Mr. Petersen filling a Senate vacancy with a non Labor person that began the downfall of Mr. Whitlam.

    Whitlam caused the vacancy by appointing, I think Senator Gair, to an diplomatic post.

  141. Shane, a bit difficult to say. Aboriginal people saw fire-sticking as a way to encourage game to come to more areas and so it is probable that they used fire-sticking in areas which would normally not have been regularly subjected to natural burn offs. Therefore it is highly likely that it was intentional in this regard.

    However, we’re going back tens of thousands of years here and as stated I will have to defer to Migs on this one..he being the expert on Aboriginal culture.

    I believe that this is where the use of fire by Aboriginals differed somewhat from other cultures. Other cultures used fire for as you say driving out game whereas the Aboriginal people used it to reduce the tree canopy which encouraged the growth of the understory which in turn encouraged browsing animals, specifically of course in Australia kangaroos and wallabies. I think that there could be other reasons too, such as the open canopy allowed other foods, maybe tuberous vegetables to grow.

  142. Ok Migs, given that you stated that you’re half tanked..now could be as good a time as any to ask you any number of questions :D

    However, for the moment..am I right in that the Aboriginal people used fire the direct opposite to a number of other cultures, that instead of fire being used to drive animals out it was used to encourage animals in.

  143. Found this in my search to throw cold water on the Romantics.

    ‘The popular notion that Aborigines carried out widespread burning of the Australian landscape is a myth, research shows.

    ‘A study of charcoal records has found that the arrival of the first Australians about 50,000 years ago did not result in significantly greater fire activity across the continent.’

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/cold-water-is-poured-on-aboriginal-burnoff-culture-20101205-18leh.html#ixzz1e30JYEGS

  144. MIgs

    There is now apparently sufficient evidence confirming that the countries mega fauna became extinct due to human beings.

    If firestick farming was designed to open up areas for grazing animals, would that not have beneftited the mega fauna, which were mainly grazing animals, rather than their extinction ?

  145. Firestick farming was practiced for two reasons, but served three purposes. It was practiced, as Min said, to attract game to feed off the new shoots – where the Aborigines would be waiting for them. It sure beat chasing them across the country side for half a day.

    It was also practiced to reduce the risk of bushfires.

    The third and less known reason was introduced later. After a scrub was burned, and the new plants were shooting, the Anorigines would wait three days before they began their hunting. Those three days were reserved for the spirits of the dead, who they gave the first option to do their hunting.

    Respect for the dead. Important in Aboriginal culture.

    There is more, but I’ll keep that for later.

  146. The mega fauna disappeared because of the burning off of the savannah on which they grazed. Of all the archaeological evidence which is available there is only one instance of mega fauna being cooked and eaten.

    That the eucalyptus tree us fire resistant and in fact is reliant on fire to flourish, is an indication that firestick farming had been practiced on the continent fir thousands of years.

  147. So I might have known Migs is a romantic.

    Shane, my feeling is that they hunted the very young mega fauna and that’s how they were wiped out.

  148. Thank you CU, for some completely unknown reason I guessed that you would know the background to this. Anyway it seems that Senator Fisher is home free as although found guilty of the charge of assault she has no conviction recorded. The Magistrate took into account documented medical records which of course we are not privvy to.

    If I was having to call it and saw a person up with no previous history whatsoever, of this type of offence and substantial medical information, then there would be no option but the same thing – guilty but no conviction recorded. Sorry, but things such as she is a fruit cake and deserves what-ever sadly isn’t quite good enough. It’s not a good look and certainly I would recommend that Senator Fisher might consider that being a Senator isn’t her best career path.

  149. Migs, so you think that fire stick farming was done deliberately so as to reduce the incidence of bush fires, rather than just an accidental benefit.

    Yes I would certainly be very interested in that because although I know a little about the basics of the culture, the interaction between the landscape, the people and the spirits I do not know. Some legends, some culture but certainly not how these different things interconnect.

  150. The population of Australia at the time of European arrival was somewhere between 500,000 and 750,000. Is this an indication of the optimum carrying capacity after 60,000 years of habitation?

  151. Frozen Planet has a duty to inspire debate as well as wonder
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/nov/16/frozen-planet-climate-change-episode

    The decision not to screen the climate change episode in the US is an injustice to the startling beauty on show during the series

    But as Attenborough explained when I interviewed him last month, it isn’t possible to spend four years filming in the Arctic and Antarctic without worrying about what is going on. Glaciers are retreating, Arctic ice cover has shrunk by 30% in 30 years and polar bears are finding it harder to survive. So the final programme in the series On Thin Ice (a working title of Meltdown was junked – presumably for sounding too alarmist), due to be aired on 7 December, explains in some detail how we know this and what it might mean, while studiously (some will say wrongly) avoiding any discussion of the causes.

    Reports in British newspapers yesterday that Discovery, the US broadcaster that co-produced the series, along with unnamed other foreign broadcasters, will not show this final episode will rightly dismay everyone who accepts that Earth is warming.

  152. El gordo, I don’t know about North America except that the Native Americans weren’t good conservationists like our Aborigines.

    About one million people was considered the optimum population for Australia pre European settlement. It could not sustain any more without threatening the ecology of the country.

    I hope I’m coming across as a but of an expert. :)

    You might want to ask me what my credentials are. :)

  153. I’m glad you asked. Among others I have an Arts degree um Aboriginal Affairs Administration and an Honour’s Degree I’m Aboriginal Studies.

    I should write a book.

  154. ‘I should write a book.’

    You could start one chapter at a time, think of the book as ten long essays.

    There was supposedly an earlier wave of pygmy size people, later taken over by the second wave.

    Lake Carpentaria is also of interest, but it will have to wait until the morn.

  155. Another Barrel o’lies backflip on the way.
    Ethics classes
    ‘When you were campaigning for us to make you Premier, you promised that Labor’s ethics classes would be retained in state schools. Promised on a stack of bibles, so to speak. Most of us believed you meant it.

    But now we find you have referred these ethics classes to a committee of the upper house, the Legislative Council.

    And who’s on this august body, Barry? None other than a bunch of bible-bashing conservatives, that’s who. They include David Clarke and Marie Ficarra from the hard-right, Opus Dei wing of the Liberal Party, and Paul Green, a spear-carrier in Fred Nile’s Christian Democratic lot.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/for-never-let-us-hold-their-banner-sigh-20111118-1nn4b.html#ixzz1e7v9OlKv

    Opes Dei and the Liberal party, the reason the Libs lost the unlosable nsw state election in 2007.

  156. David Clarke

    The very man who was one of the main reasons the State Liberals in NSW were out of power for so long. He is of the extreme religious right and wants to change laws and the constitution to enforce Christian rules onto the citizens including banning homosexuality.

    But for supposedly being such a devout Christian he has never been adverse to corruption, deceit and underhanded tactics to gain power and to put his people into power around NSW at the cost of good moderates within the party.

    The ABC did an expose of him and he is one nasty piece of shit. Alex Hawke came out of the David Clarke school of politics and Hawke is touted as a future Federal Liberal party leader and PM.

    Clarke also doesn’t want to stop at NSW for his imposition of strict Christian values onto the citizenry, that is just the first stepping stone to spread his dogma and rules to the other states and then to Canberra.

  157. Mobius, myself being an agnostic..I always found that ironic in a sorta sad way, that the right wing of politics can choose to demonise Muslims, shock horror a pastor somewhere in western Sydney mentioned Sharia law.

    Yet nary a word about the worst of the drop down and Hail to the Almighty – it’s a miracle – dis beloved sister of jeesus wuz in a wheelchair for over 15 years – it’s a miracle she walks – variety of lobbyist who frequent the halls of Canberra.

  158. Magnate wields charm in mining tax campaign

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/magnate-wields-charm-in-mining-tax-campaign-20111118-1nni6.html


    BILLIONAIRE mining magnate Andrew ”Twiggy” Forrest has unleashed a late charm offensive in an attempt to kill the mining tax, flying to Port Macquarie to persuade independent MP Rob Oakeshott that it will hurt small miners.

    Mr Forrest nosed his private jet to Port Macquarie late on Tuesday for a meeting with Mr Oakeshott, outlining his opposition to the Gillard government’s tax scheme in a local cafe.

    But fellow New South Wales independent Tony Windsor’s door has remained resolutely shut. With the parliamentary debate looming next week, Mr Windsor has rebuffed repeated overtures from Fortescue Metals.

    Mr Windsor is progressing his own set of complicated demands on the future regulation of coal seam gas exploration. He said he would not be taking meetings. ”It’s pointless me seeing anyone who is against the mining tax, because I’m against it until my issues are resolved,” Mr Windsor told The Saturday Age.

    Mr Forrest also made an overture to Tasmanian independent Andrew Wilkie – who has publicly backed some of his concerns about the tax – but was told Mr Wilkie knew his view, and did not need to see him.

  159. Gillard sweats on Wilkie’s tax call
    http://www.theage.com.au/national/gillard-sweats-on-wilkies-tax-call-20111119-1nohv.html


    THE Coalition could support a crossbench bid to lift the level of ”super profits” at which the mining tax kicks in, strengthening the hand of independent MP Andrew Wilkie as he seeks a concession from Labor on the threshold.

    The boost comes as Mr Wilkie signalled to The Sunday Age that he did not want to scuttle the mining tax, was mindful of strong public support for the concept and was ”not going to die in a ditch over it”.

  160. Opposition leader Tony Abbott needs to change his Action Man costume

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/opposition-leader-tony-abbott-needs-to-change-his-action-man-costume/story-e6frezz0-1226200045666

    ONE of the most loveable things about Abbott is that tiny voice in the back of his head that tells him voters are big fans of his action man photo shoots.
    It’s loveable, in a roguish sort of way, because it is so rare to find a fully grown man (especially one in full time employment) who still believes in dressing like a super hero.

    Given this penchant for Batman dressed as Robin outfits it was hardly surprising to see photos this week of Abbott waddling around Afghanistan in a bomb disposal suit.

    Unfortunately for Abbott, the resulting photos were taken at just the wrong time, because he donned the Kevlar-plated, blow-up sumo suit at the exact moment his political persona was shifting from keen bomb thrower, to reluctant bomb defuser.

  161. Pip, interesting story indeed especially coming from the DT..yet another negative story about Tony Abbott and over the weekend. The weekend of course usually being reserved for whoever the Murdoch press deems is their target of interest.

    From your link:

    So what exactly caused this turnaround in Abbott’s political fortunes? The government would love to claim credit, and they deserve a little. But I think the biggest factor is that Abbott’s political strategy has passed its use-by date.

  162. Thanks Pip.

    —————
    But as usual News Ltd gets it completely wrong about Abbott, just as they always do about Gillard and the government.

    Abbott was never lovable, was never popular and his Mr Negative persona and quash everything regardless of merit, even Liberal party line endorsed by Labor, was only ever fashionable as a dallying curiosity by the public. As soon as any election loomed and got to the serious end of the cycle, when the voters minds start to actually engage in politics instead of their normal blasé attitude towards it, Abbott was always going to fail.

    If the media from the very start had done their job by questioning and challenging Abbott’s constant stream of brain farts, nonsense and negativity based on no lucid reasoning, then Abbott would have been forced to to iterate something approaching perspicuity ages ago, and he would have comprehensively failed.

  163. Mobius,

    an accurate description…you have such a way with words :grin:

    If the media from the very start had done their job by questioning and challenging Abbott’s constant stream of brain farts, nonsense and negativity based on no lucid reasoning, then Abbott would have been forced to to iterate something approaching perspicuity ages ago, and he would have comprehensively failed.

  164. Clubs Australia and political advertising …

    Twitter

    purserj purserj

    Sigh, went through the junk mail today and there’s a great big shiny thing from Clubs Australia attacking @stephenjonesalp

  165. Problems with Telstra. Only the 6th call so far today. The last phone call was interesting:

    I was told to phone 125111 and to say the word FAULPS. I said, Pardon?

    The very nice gentleman spelt it out F-A-U-L-P-S.

    And yes, it was P for Peter.

  166. Tweet, BIG whoopsy :oops:

    mor100 Steve Morrison

    Doing some home renovations and knocked down a wall only to find a secret, fully furnished room…and then I remembered we live in a duplex.

  167. Well said Albo

    Vic_Rollison Victoria Rollison

    @AlboMP describes Abbott as a walking vuvuzela. Gold.
    #walkingvuvuzela #auspol

  168. What price the new democracy? Goldman Sachs conquers Europe

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/what-price-the-new-democracy-goldman-sachs-conquers-europe-6264091.html

    While ordinary people fret about austerity and jobs, the eurozone’s corridors of power have been undergoing a remarkable transformation

    The ascension of Mario Monti to the Italian prime ministership is remarkable for more reasons than it is possible to count. By replacing the scandal-surfing Silvio Berlusconi, Italy has dislodged the undislodgeable. By imposing rule by unelected technocrats, it has suspended the normal rules of democracy, and maybe democracy itself.

    And by putting a senior adviser at Goldman Sachs in charge of a Western nation, it has taken to new heights the political power of an investment bank that you might have thought was prohibitively politically toxic.

    This is the most remarkable thing of all: a giant leap forward for, or perhaps even the successful culmination of, the Goldman Sachs Project.

  169. From Mark Day behind a paywall.

    ‘PRESIDING over a company witnessing the sharpest declines in newspaper circulation in the country, Fairfax Media chief executive Greg Hywood has a surprising and implausible response when asked about the future of newspapers.’

    “You have asked the wrong question,” he says.

  170. In Spain and the UK youth unemployment is high, so for some the recession has already begun, while others take advantage.

    “It is the employers’ perception that workers from Poland and Lithuania demonstrate a greater work ethic. This is particularly apparent in the hospitality sector but applies right across the board,” said Mr Davies. “There is concern about British workers not turning up on time or being assiduous enough in their work.”

    ‘Foreign workers are also seen as more courteous and enthusiastic.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2063739/Generation-betrayed-bogus-promises-Our-failing-schools-forcing-UK-firms-choose-foreign-workers.html#ixzz1eDeMEvc6

    A bit of anecdotal evidence…a friend just bought an apartment in London and was preparing to do renovations. Walking out of a hardware shop she was approached by three Poles who offered their renovating skills for half the cost of the locals.

    She took them up on their generous offer and said their work was top quality.

  171. Pip, I read the first paragraph of your link re Goldman Sachs …

    History will tell our children that Goldman Sachs (how Jewish can you get?) fucked (apologies – ’tis 2011) Europe good and proper (check the Greek government “financial consultants”) … about a decade ago … the plan has been in place for centuries … (check “The Nameless War” Ramsay) …

    … the world is controlled by “central banks” that ensure “retail” banks don’t fail (guess who controls the central banks) … for another “insight” read “The Creature From Jekyll Island” (the birth of the Federal Reserve Bank on Jekyll Island in the Potomac River by all the major banks – all controlled by Jews and advised by a Russian Jew …)

    … anti- Semitic … nah … but in Australia, we too have a centra bank, who runs that?

    The Bank of England is also a central bank … as is the Bundesbank — the ECB is close …. ad infinitum ….

    Banks suck our economies dry …. and then our government’s (taxpayers!) bail the pricks out when they falter …

    … the ultimate ROBBER BARONS … in the 16th Century they got rid of the bastards in England and France with ropes, axes and guillotines … these days we are too nice …

    … the rich get richer the poor get poorer and the majority still pay …

    … I hate to say this but China may just have a BETTER system for the MAJORITY of people who want to live as we do …

    … Uber Kapitalism has/is failing just as Absolut Communism USSR style failed … a mix of elected one party representatives and market economy (with essentials run by the government – health, transport, communication, education, water, power, defence, emergency services etc) …

    … just check the USA progress in New Orleans … rich and poor …

    … relaying on Uber Rich as benefactors is really not the way to go …

    … as a SFR I am still working at retaining my capital to live off … luckily for me I have a little knowledge (that seems to work in the silliness of the last four years) … but many folk don’t …

    … a super fund that is government supported to provide say — 7% return would work for most retirees but now kill an idustry of deception and greed …

    … SFR and pensioners have been abandoned to their fate by Australian governments on the wild turf gambling forum of the international stock-market … good luck if your like most folk when you retire with average $250, 000 and a mortgage …

  172. El gordo, however your friend might run into a few problems when he/she wants to sell the apartment and he/she does not have the paperwork aka building approvals for the renovations. He/she might also run into problems if there is damage to the property and needs to make an insurance claim.

  173. She took them up on their generous offer and said their work was top quality.

    In a TRUE market economy that’s COMPETITION!

    QUESTION: Why can a government, by legislation, in Western “democracies” “freeze wages” but NOT “freeze prices” …

    ANSWER: I know – you tell me …

  174. ‘you tell me …’

    UK energy was privatised, thinking the six operators would compete, but they have formed a lose cartel and are forcing millions of Britons into fuel poverty from huge price hikes.

    It sucks.

    And now the Duke of Edinburgh has become a heretic by saying wind farms are pathetic, or something along those lines.

  175. Just once in blue moon isn’t nice to have something positive, and for once in a while chuck the Abbott negativity..

    Gillard is in this knife-edge position, wheeling and dealing with independents and the Greens, because she did what Abbott couldn’t: form government.

    Why? Because she’s a better negotiator. That’s also why she’s got a mountain of legislation – about 150 Bills – through a hung Parliament.

    As for “knifing” K-Rudd. Remember when Kevin ’07 became Kevin OMG?

    Not Gillard. She’s made of tougher stuff. She is the unmarried ranga from the working-class west who smashed every glass ceiling to make it to the top.

    Whether she stays there or not, I’m proud of her.

    Anyone who agrees could show their support in a LWJ.

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/why-i-like-our-ranga-pm-and-her-trendy-lwj/story-e6frfhqf-1226200065158?sv=9a4a4e347e4480dbdac79dd86106a55b

  176. And now the Duke of Edinburgh has become a heretic by saying wind farms are pathetic, or something along those lines.

    Heretic? … nah … fuckwit? yeah!

    Pathetic … absolutely!

  177. TB Queensland, and the Duke of Edinburgh is relevant to Australia because

    He’s not … who said any of The Firm was??? Re- read (and comprehend) my last post!

  178. TB, your last post said fuckwit Yes I re-read it, and yes I know the meaning of the term. Now your points of debate are what, or are you just trolling.

  179. And meanwhile, back at the ranch on the subject of the Herald Sun article, link via self at 5.53pm –

    Via Race Mathews on Migs’ Australians for an Honest Media FB group:

    Race Mathews Hard to believe it appeared in the Hun. The Murdochs must be feeling the heat.

    I first met Race when he was Federal Member for Casey, great to know that he is still very much involved.

  180. If anybody has troubles speaking with Telstra, events that can last several hours over several days, try tweeting them. The responses are almost immediate.

  181. AntonyG,

    I’m guessing you’re not aware of TB’s background or his attitude to the firm the royal family?

  182. Just watching ABC News, who obligingly reported that Tony Abbott has set Julia Gillard a “stiff test”- I think that was the wording.
    Cue Abbott striding toward the camera with such a swagger I thought he’d overbalance to left or right with each stride. Snarling into it, the Monk declared that if Julia & BamBam or whatever his name is hadn’t agreed on something to stop the boats real bloody quick then her visit to Bali was a FAILURE!!!!
    He looked fucking ridiculous.

  183. TB, your last post said fuckwit Yes I re-read it, and yes I know the meaning of the term. Now your points of debate are what, or are you just trolling.

    1. The Duke of Edinburgh is a fuckwit always has been a fuckwit and will continue to be a fuckwit!

    2. Windmills are a Quixotic moment in history – they cost a fortune to build and fortune to assemble and erect and a fortune to maintain, their contribution to renewable energy is questionable in the extreme … go to Holland or Denmark and ask the locals … oh, and mention the noise … they are PATHETIC as the FUCKWIT pointed out …

    3. Call me a troll again and you’ll find out what it really means … and that’s not trolling that’s just pissed off with smartarse remarks …

    4. Listen to Bacchus – someone with a sensibility rarely found across blogs … g’day Baccy!

    Now, what are YOUR points of debate …

  184. AntonyG, I would hardly call TB a troll. Quite the opposite.

    His opinion on the banks, btw, is far closer to the truth than people would care to accept.

  185. BSA. He said, now get this, that Yudhoyono had to do what was right for Australia.

    Screw Indonesia, what you do that is right for yourself is unimportant, but you MUST do what’s right for Australia.

    The point was that the opposition made a huge point about the cattle trade and how it would be bought up and used to put down Australia. It wasn’t and wasn’t.

    And according to most ABC news reports I heard, Gillard had to patch relationships with Indonesia because the way the ABC was framing it that country would have nuked Australia if they had nukes they hate us that much because of this government and Gillard.

    It’s good to see tiny snippets of honest on Gillard and Abbott start to appear in the MSM, except for one media organisation that continues to denigrate the government and stick up for Abbott, and that’s the ABC.

    For stuff’s sake Aunty, 30 seconds on Gillard in Indonesia, of which only half was footage of her and all was background voiced in negativity by the ABC, yet the ABC obligatory “Abbott says” aired non stop his whole idiotic rambling on demanding a foreign country do what Australia tells it to. Abbott waffling, rapid eye blinking at 30bps (blinks per second), head nodding and now picking up Howard’s tell tale habit of frequent lip licking.

    Read up on body language to find out what that means, and why it is often an indication to lying.

  186. ‘In a withering assault on the onshore wind turbine industry, the Duke said the farms were “a disgrace”.

    ‘He also criticised the industry’s reliance on subsidies from electricity customers, claimed wind farms would “never work” and accused people who support them of believing in a “fairy tale”.

    Ha Ha….a disgrace.

  187. M.E.
    You’re right, the ABC is still in lockstep behind Abbott.
    “had to do what was right for Australia” If Indonesia so chooses, all she has to do is act the part of a roadside garage attendant. Sell ‘em a tank of gas, check the oil, flog ‘em some vittles & wave ‘em off- ‘y’all have a good trip now”.
    Our neighbours must be getting very annoyed with Mr Abbott.

  188. The WorkChoices conga line grows and grows
    or
    Amanda runs interference for Qantas

    Why Alan Joyce should be named Australian of the Year Amanda Vanstone
    November 21, 2011.
    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/why-alan-joyce-should-be-named-australian-of-the-year-20111120-1np97.html?rand=1321792380517

    Understandably, people who were inconvenienced by the sudden grounding of the Qantas fleet were annoyed. Qantas has worked hard to recompense those inconvenienced. I haven’t noticed anyone saying the unions should foot the bill for the havoc they caused to passengers.

    **
    Deadline today for Qantas and unions to agree, but appeal made for extra time
    http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/deadline-today-for-qantas-and-unions-to-agree-but-appeal-made-for-extra-time-20111120-1npdw.html

    But the Transport Workers Union, which represents baggage handlers, catering workers and other ground crew indicated it was unlikely to strike a deal with the company today, and called on Qantas to agree to extend the bargaining period.

    The union’s national secretary, Tony Sheldon, accused the company of being motivated by greed, and said it had made no fresh offers in five months of discussions.

    ”Come to the table. Negotiate in good faith because you have not shown it in the past 21 days,” Mr Sheldon said.

  189. I suspect that Mr. Joyce and Qantas Chairman Leigh Clifford never had any intention of “negotiating in good faith”.

  190. Pip, from your link on Peter Slipper:

    Mr Howard threw his support behind Mr Brough on Friday, saying he had been an outstanding cabinet minister.

    “I don’t have a vote (in a preselection), but I can say this: Mal Brough was an outstanding minister in my government,” the former prime minister said. “I hope he comes back — he would be someone who would strengthen the Coalition team in Canberra.”

    Mr Howard criticised Mr Slipper as “the bloke who took the votes for the Labor Party” in accepting his position as Deputy Speaker.

    So as per Migs’ topic, it seems that Howard is indeed still having a dabble in internal party politics.

    Also of interest is that “few of” Mal Brough’s supporters will be able to vote for him in pre-selection as they have been members of the party for less than 12 months.

  191. What is going to be the censure or matter of public interest debate later today.

    I will predict, that Mr. Abbott will continue his macho act of jumping up and down, because the PM and the Indonesia Leader has not solved the boat trade.

    This in spite of increase of arrests in Indonesia.

    The question I would like to ask, has the number of boats increased during the latter part of this month.

    What I do hope, that there has been an outcome between the leaders in getting the young Indonesians in our jails back to their own country as quickly as possible.

    Maybe it is time for the immigration minister to inform us of the number of refugees still behind wire.

    If the PM behaves as she has for the last few weeks, there should be another major announcement today.

    We have two major events coming up in the next few weeks. The budget update and the mini budget and the National Labor Conference.

    I love the media over the weekend, when talking to Senator Wong. alleging that because there was disagreement, meant the party was divided.

    At the same time, Mr Scott Morrison made a comment, that the matter of same gender marriage was settled by the promise they made before the last election. NO further debate is warranted or desired. What about the wishes of those who vote for them?.

    This points out how silly it is to make election promises the mandate.

    According to Mr. Morrison, this belief smothers debate. This is anti democracy in action.

    That is if one believes the MP has an obligation to act on behalf of the people who gave them their mandate, their constituents., not the party of their leader.

    What has changed since that time, is that the public on the whole is open to change. It is time the PMs caught up.

  192. Now that the IPCC is backing away from global warming fear mongering we can expect the word ‘adaptation’ to become more common.

    ‘Climate change over the past two million years has boosted human evolution by forcing us to adapt to changing conditions and allowing us to migrate to new areas.

    ‘Researchers found that far from hindering our development, periods when the earth is either cooling or warming up have actually been highly beneficial.

    ‘As well as prompting us to migrate changes in climate have also forced humans to evolve culturally by encouraging us to learn to work together.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2063895/Climate-change-actually-boosts-human-evolution-forces-to-new-areas.html#ixzz1eHXQDAl3

  193. Sorry, there will be no stunts during QT. Mr. Abbott has to bge in Sydney by 5.30 PM.

    “…Tony Abbott is in Canberra for the final sitting week. He’ll follow the prime minister in the Afghanistan debate today. The Opposition Leader will deliver a speech on the economy at the Sydney Institute at 5.30pm. Mr Abbott’s shadow ministry meets this morning..”

    The PM will be givng an address about noon.

    “………Julia Gillard arrived home in Canberra yesterday from the East Asia Summit. She held a series of bilateral meetings while in Bali with regional leaders, including Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono (report). She’ll speak for about 20 minutes in the House of Representatives at noon in the annual parliamentary debate on Australia’s role in the Afghan war. Ms Gillard will attend Question Time at 2pm. Cabinet will meet this evening.
    ….”

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/capital-circle/qantas-dispute/story-fn59nqgy-1226200742023

  194. We are going to hear Mr. Abbott complaining about the high numbers of illegals in this country. We are, I am sure.

    “AUSTRALIA has enough illegal immigrants on the loose to populate a large regional city.

    A Herald Sun investigation has found that nearly 60,000 people – one in every 390 – is in the country unlawfully, sparking renewed calls for a crackdown.

    The 58,400 foreign citizens hiding illegally among us easily outnumber the populations of Mildura or Shepparton – Victoria’s fifth and sixth biggest cities.

    And they dwarf the 4700 asylum seekers who arrived by boat in 2010-11….”

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/national/taxpayers-wear-burden-of-60000-illegal-immigrants/story-e6frfkvr-1226200664868#ixzz1eHcsdWDs

  195. “The Opposition Leader will deliver a speech on the economy at the Sydney Institute at 5.30pm”

    I never knew Abbott did stand up comedy routines.

  196. What the IPCC really stated and el gordo misinterpreted because of reading the right wing deliberate distortions and lies:

    CLIMATE EXTREMES AND IMPACTS

    Confidence in projecting changes in the direction and magnitude of climate extremes depends on many factors, including the type of extreme, the region and season, the amount and quality of observational data, the level of understanding of the underlying processes, and the reliability of their simulation in models.

    Term Likelihood of the outcome
    Virtually certain 99-100% probability
    Very likely 90-100% probability
    Likely 66-100% probability
    About as likely as not 33 to 66% probability
    Unlikely 0-33% probability
    Very unlikely 0-10% probability
    Exceptionally unlikely 0-1% probability

    Models project substantial warming in temperature extremes by the end of the 21 st century. It is virtually certain that increases in the frequency and magnitude of warm daily temperature extremes and decreases in cold extremes will occur in the 21st century on the global scale. It is very likely that the length, frequency and/or intensity of warm spells, or heat waves, will increase over most land areas.

    It is likely that the frequency of heavy precipitation or the proportion of total rainfall from heavy falls will increase in the 21st century over many areas of the globe. This is particularly the case in the high latitudes and tropical regions, and in winter in the northern mid-latitudes. Heavy rainfalls associated with tropical cyclones are likely to increase with continued warming. There is medium confidence that, in some regions, increases in heavy precipitation will occur despite projected decreases of total precipitation in those regions.

    Average tropical cyclone maximum wind speed is likely to increase, although increases may not occur in all ocean basins. It is likely that the global frequency of tropical cyclones will either decrease or remain essentially unchanged.

    There is medium confidence that there will be a reduction in the number of extra-tropical cyclones averaged over each hemisphere. While there is low confidence in the detailed geographical projections of extra-tropical cyclone activity, there is medium confidence in a projected poleward shift of extra-tropical storm tracks. There is low confidence in projections of small spatial-scale phenomena such as tornadoes and hail because competing physical processes may affect future trends and because current climate models do not simulate such phenomena.

    There is medium confidence that droughts will intensify in the 21st century in some seasons and areas, due to reduced precipitation and/or increased evapotranspiration. This applies to regions including southern Europe and the Mediterranean region, central Europe, central North America, Central America and Mexico, northeast Brazil, and southern Africa. Elsewhere there is overall low confidence because of inconsistent projections of drought changes (dependent both on model and dryness index). Definitional issues, lack of observational data, and the inability of models to include all the factors that influence droughts preclude stronger confidence than medium in drought projections.

    Projected precipitation and temperature changes imply possible changes in floods, although overall there is low confidence in projections of changes in fluvial floods. Confidence is low due to limited evidence and because the causes of regional changes are complex, although there are exceptions to this statement. There is medium confidence (based on physical reasoning) that projected increases in heavy rainfall would contribute to increases in local flooding, in some catchments or regions.

    It is very likely that mean sea level rise will contribute to upward trends in extreme coastal high water levels in the future. There is high confidence that locations currently experiencing adverse impacts such as coastal erosion and inundation will continue to do so in the future due to increasing sea levels, all other contributing factors being equal. The very likely contribution of mean sea level rise to increased extreme coastal high water levels, coupled with the likely increase in tropical cyclone maximum wind speed, is a specific issue for tropical small island states.

    There is high confidence that changes in heat waves, glacial retreat and/or permafrost degradation will affect high mountain phenomena such as slope instabilities, movements of mass, and glacial lake outburst floods. There is also high confidence that changes in heavy precipitation will affect landslides in some regions.

    There is low confidence in projections of changes in large-scale patterns of natural climate variability. Confidence is low in projections of changes in monsoons (rainfall, circulation) because there is little consensus in climate models regarding the sign of future change in the monsoons. Model projections of changes in El Niño – Southern Oscillation variability and the frequency of El Niño episodes are not consistent, and so there is low confidence in projections of changes in this phenomenon

    The Australian beat-up: http://blogs.crikey.com.au/thestump/files/2011/11/19-11-2011-theozonclimatechange.png

  197. I want everyone here to note el gordo’s shift in position over the last week or so, where from flatly denying there is global warming and in fact the planet is cooling, to now pushing adaptability because of the planet is warming.

    This is the absolute normal for deniers where they shift their views on AGW in cycles and the move to “adaptability” is the last step in the cycle.

  198. ME. a little like Mr. O’Farrell’s outburst last night on his return from India, re the nursing home tragedy. A lot of bluster about nothing.

    I noticed that Mr. O’Farrell voice little concern for the victims and their families. Better to stir the families up acting the tough guy, where for once the company might not be to blame. Would it not be better to wait until the preliminary enquiries are completed.

    I failed to noticed any concern from Mr. Abbott on the same matter

    I was fully under the belief the Ethics classes were safe before the last election. Appears it is only Labor that is expected to govern fully according to what they say before an election.

    ME, sadly it is not comedy, not even black humour. It will be a farce, even if he means it to sound like he has suddenly gained an interest in economics.

    Mr. Abbott reminds me of a comment that I read about the recently deposed Italian PM. Every time the discussion turned to economics in the Cabinet room, he would leave the table an retire to a corner in the room, where he watched soccer on the TV.

  199. Re Abbott and stand up comedy. You’ve been missing a real treat Mobius..who could forget this one.

    Whoops putting in the link helps…

  200. Perhaps grodotroll could get a job at the oz?

    “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

    The oo fails basic literary skills yet again.

    Climate change effects unknown: IPCC report

    Unknown? Considering the IPCC is very clear about the projected effects of AGW on the climate, many of which appear to be coming to fruition already, the word ‘unkown’ is deliberately obfuscating what is within the report. Uncertain perhaps, but not unknown.

    http://newsdelimited.blogspot.com/2011/11/you-keep-using-that-word.html

  201. Yeah Cu and O’Farrell attempting to glibly explain away a 17.4% swing against the sitting member in a National seat of Clarence as normal for the first by-election of a new government. Labor needed a 20% swing and nearly got it, and the seat has now become marginal for the Coalition.

    Something up to 10% might be normal, but nearly 20% is not.

  202. I want everyone here to note el gordo’s shift in position over the last week or so

    Duly noted ;)

    Next week will be a new role I guess.

  203. I read this over at PP on the weekend, which is very well put

    Childishly simplistic. Modern agriculture has evolved over the last 200 years or so on the presumption of a stable ecosphere. Climate change is already having an effect in South America, where Colombian coffee production has fallen by 25% in 5 years.
    That notably Greenie/Leftist rag The Economist says:

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/purepoison/2011/11/16/it-hasnt-warmed-since%E2%80%A6/comment-page-2/#comment-71144

  204. From the OO THE Nationals’ win in the Clarence by-election is a clear indication of the public’s support for the work the NSW government is doing, Premier Barry O’Farrell says. Absolutely! a mammoth swing against is ‘clear indication’ of support. Well done to the good people of Grafton and surrounds..we’ll get ‘em next time.

  205. Tom, I was reading over the weekend (sorry, have forgotten where) that climate change is going to have absolutely diabolical consequences for Australia. For starters we even now struggle to have enough water to support our population – one day we might have to bless those ‘white elephant’ desalination plants.

    Then of course there is agriculture. And while Australia may currently be wealthy enough to import a good portion of our food, it may not always be so.

    Some say, we’ll just pick up and move our agriculture further up north where there is plenty of rain. They might have the rain, but anyone who knows anything about tropical climates also knows that the vast majority of the soil is of very poor quality. This is due to the fact that rapid bacterial decay prevents the accumulation of humus. Basically the only fertile tropical soils are those of volcanic origin.

  206. We should also remember that the Coalition has waged war in this region for the last twelve months in it’s endeavour to destroy Mr. Windsor and Mr. Oakeshott.

  207. ‘…to now pushing adaptability because of the planet is warming.’

    It did warm at the end of last century, but now its cooling. Adaptation is the way forward.

  208. but anyone who knows anything about tropical climates also knows that the vast majority of the soil is of very poor quality.

    Yes, the opposition tried this one on recently too. They (and the msm) ignored that this desire to move agriculture there has been going for over 100 years. Reality keeps on getting in the way though.

  209. Why do we need to adapt, if the climate isn’t chaging. If it is ‘cooling’, won’t it just be returning to the equilibrium?

    Or do have evidence (ROFL) of a ‘global cooling’ theory?

  210. “but anyone who knows anything about tropical climates also knows that the vast majority of the soil is of very poor quality.”

    It is not so much that the soil is of poor quality. This is not true while covered in tropical or rainfall vegetation vegetation.

    What occurs in all areas of heavy rainfall, is that once the vegetation is removed, the rainfall leaches the soil, washing away the goodness.

    My father learnt this the hard way when he moved from the Central West to the Central Coast of NSW. He could not understand why a farm with so much green grass was useless.

    He was thunderstruck to realise that he, no matter the volume of grass, had to hand feed.

    he, was one of the first to add trace elements and other minerals to the soil, with sadly little success.

  211. Adaption..true enough. However, the only species who are able to adapt rapidly as in only a few hundred years are in the majority insects because of their exceptionally rapid rate of reproduction.

  212. CU, re tropical soils.

    Tropical rainforest soil is very thin and low in nutrients. With no winters or frosts to kill insects or microorganisms, and with lots of heat and humidity to help them grow and multiply, organic matter such as fallen leaves and twigs decomposes so quickly that only a thin layer of organic material covers the soils.

    Rainforest soils are generally terrible for agriculture, producing crops for one to three years before being depleted of nutrients…

    http://factsanddetails.com/world.php?itemid=1309&catid=52&subcatid=329

  213. Why do we need to adapt, if the climate isn’t changing?

    Climate has always changed and always will. Adaptation created humanz.

  214. Min, the disasters that have occurred in the Amazon are evidence of what you say.

    When it comes to mother nature, man has to remain within her rules to produce food.

    Mother nature can be cruel in it’s vengeance.

  215. Min, anything that cannot adapt will perish.

    Gum trees are a good example of flora adaptation, winners are grinners.

  216. Adaptation created humanz.

    Now that’s an odd way of saying that apes evolved into humans. Are you also suggesting that humans are the end product?

    Personally, I think we are still in the evolutionary process.

    From what I’ve seen on some other blog sites suggest that some people have branched off into even lower forms.

  217. Interesting supposition. This isn’t my field, but have humans really adapted all that much..that is since the avent of modern man. I thought that the table from this one was interesting – we are actually a little shorter than 30,000-9,000 years ago but live twice as long.

  218. El gordo, yes indeed the eucalypts are an excellent example of adaptation however in many areas eucalypts are most definitely not the winners. Northern Rivers NSW where the habitat has been taken over by the invasive environmental weed the camphor laurel, Victoria habitat taken over by pinus radiata.

    That is, how many centuries would it take for the eucalypts to be able to complete with the camphor laurel. Ans: they can’t compete, they die out and with their dying out take with them koala and other habitat, plus the understory plants. Both camphors and pinus radiata have a cute defense mechanism..they excrete poisonous oils preventing the growth of any other plants which might be in competition for any nearby nutrients.

  219. Climate has always changed and always will

    And there have been reasons for that. Why is it doing it now, and so rapidly?

    Yes, climate has varied in the past and it has varied for many different reasons, some better understood than others. The present day climate change is very well understood and is different. Simply noting that something happened before without humans does not in any logical way show that humans are not causing it today.

    http://scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/2006/01/climate-is-always-changing.php

  220. Personally, I think we are still in the evolutionary process.

    If grodo is anything to go by, lets pray we aint the the pinnacle.

  221. Miglo, you could be onto something there. Maybe we are going backwards.

    Only some people, Cu. ;-)

    Many others are simply degenerates. This is something we don’t see so much in other animals. Apparently intelligence has given much of the human race the ability to be totally stupid. I’ve never seen a pack of stupid animals hang out together like I have a mob of stupid people. Humans have the ability to attract ‘like types’.

  222. ‘And there have been reasons for that. Why is it doing it now, and so rapidly?’

    Nothing unusual is happening with our earthly climate, chicken little.

  223. Nothing unusual is happening with our earthly climate

    Those pesky scientists are making it all up aren’t they :shock:

    While Earth has experienced numerous changes in climate over the past 65 million years, recent decades have experienced the most significant climate change since the beginning of human civilized societies about 5,000 years ago, says a new Cornell University study

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/11/081106153534.htm

    So why?

  224. ‘Those pesky scientists are making it all up aren’t they?’

    No, scientists don’t make shit up, they are open to criticism from their peers, but unfortunately on climate science the political pressure has created group think.

  225. “The cod fishermen are out of luck, but the fishermen that have decided to go after snow crab and shrimp are very successful now.” He added that adapting to climate change is partly being able to predict what we can expect.’

    Adaptation is the key to our survival.

  226. “Those pesky scientists are making it all up aren’t they ”

    No one has been able to explain to me why the majority of scientist world wide have joined together in this great conspiracy.

    I have always seen scientist as being very competitive. I have also seen them as sceptics that love pulling one another down.

    Surely the big money is found working for those who pollute.

  227. “pressure has created group think”

    Oh, that is the reason, scientist are unable to think for themselves.

    Gee, that is an amazing conclusion.

    It could not be the problem that the anti climate change people are experiencing.

  228. Is el gordo now saying that the world is getting warmer.

    I am confused as to why she is talking about adaptation, if nothing is happening.

  229. but unfortunately on climate science the political pressure has created group think

    The only problem with that scenario, is that the consensus came before the political pressure. There was a time when AGW was just a crank theory

    The science moved it to the mainstream. The political argument came after

    I am confused as to why she is talking about adaptation, if nothing is happening.

    Cos it is just noise. I asked earlier, and he didn’t respond in any meaningful way.

  230. Theoretically, adaptation may require cultural (ex)change(s), perhaps even institutional (ex)change(s), say, with a view to transfer-dispersing relevant technologies, the means to fund them, and building robust ways to administer them; as a non-zero-sum, specific end. Which should make Durban and Rio+20 both that much more exciting, given recent insular emissions by some to the pretense that global climate change is best addressed intra-territorially, without any leakages whatsoever, despite the phenomenal opportunities presented for less conservative approaches to adaptation.

  231. ‘Cos it is just noise.’

    The Klimatariat has come to the conclusion that natural variability rules in the short term.

    ‘Is el gordo now saying that the world is getting warmer.’

    The other day Tom put up a nice moving graph which illustrates what has been happening with temperatures throughout last century. I wouldn’t mind seeing it again, Tom.

    What is happening now is a leveling off, but after 20 years it may pick up again. The next two decades will be familiar to all of you, we experienced it first hand from the mid 1940s to 1976.

    It’s just noise to some, but the AGW signal is inaudible when it should be louder. It’s a travesty.

  232. The Klimatariat has come to the conclusion

    Who gives a toss what a bunch of brain dead trolls think

    Most people, and thankfully now most Governmnets, listen to the scientists, not the rent seekers.

    The ‘moving’ (animated??) graph was a great illustration of your absolute stupidity. And yet you keep coming back for more.

    I wonder if it almost time for another update on the miserable history of grodo’s deceitfullness?

  233. El gordo, I noticed that you announced at the gutter that someone nameless on this thread had called TB a troll and I noticed too the derision ALL Cafe commenters received because of it. It apparently went unnoticed that some people here jumped to TB’s defense, including myself.

    You will be interested to learn (via that unnamed person) that he recently commented at the gutter and what did they call him? You guessed it, a troll.

    What a funny lot.

  234. Independent MPs back mining tax

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-21/oakeshott-and-windsor-to-support-mining-tax/3684226

    The Federal Government has secured the support of key independents Tony Windsor, Rob Oakeshott and Andrew Wilkie for its mining tax.

    The independents have secured a $200 million program to examine environmental concerns over coal seam gas mining and an increase in the tax threshold from $50 million to $75 million for small companies.

    But the passage of the bill is by no means assured. The Greens, who have threatened to block the legislation if the tax threshold is increased, are yet to make their position clear.

  235. Abbott plays down Coalition mining tax friction
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-21/abbott-plays-down-internal-disputes-over-mining-tax/3683780

    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has refused to respond to press reports that some in his party now favour the Minerals Resource Rent Tax, despite the Coalition’s pledge to repeal the measure if it wins government.

    The Sydney Morning Herald quotes an unnamed Liberal MP as saying there is a growing view within the Coalition that the tax will be needed to fund the party’s promises.

  236. ‘It apparently went unnoticed that some people here jumped to TB’s defense, including myself.’

    A typically quiet Sunday night at GT with only Tosy as company, give me a break. You are all a bit too precious.

    In regards to recent bad blood letting between two left wing camps, typical Labor Party brawling. Starts off discussing platform in a civil sort of way and then over time it bursts into flames, gets personal and nasty.

    ‘…miserable history of grodo’s deceitfullness?’

    Never knowingly deceitful, but being only human I have made the occasional error of judgement.

    When on active duty here at the cafe I prefer the title ‘concern troll’, just to separate me from those heavy going lads like TB.

  237. I offer this as an apology to TB. When I made the accusation that he was a troll I was unaware of the fact that he was a long term if only occasional contributor to this blog. When I noted his use of the term f*wit I jumped to the conclusion that he was just another troll. It was in mixed company and not a term that I would personally use during the course of a debate.

  238. ‘It apparently went unnoticed that some people here jumped to TB’s defense, including myself.’

    A typically quiet Sunday night at GT with only Tosy as company, give me a break. You are all a bit too precious.

    El gordo, you are free to say and do as you like, but you haven’t been around long enough to know that it doesn’t take much to get the thugs on that site to attack the Café or harass the contributors here.

    It really is tiresome.

    They need some crowd control over there.

  239. ‘They need some crowd control over there.’

    Avoid going there to look, if they offend, and if they want to return here they will have to follow in the footsteps of AntonyG.

  240. ‘Which is why you ARE a troll when it comes to AGW’

    You are entitled to your opinion, but I am a ‘concern troll’ because I voted for Julia at the last election.

    And CO2 doesn’t cause global warming, so I’m concerned about her blind faith in this bogus theory.

  241. el gordo Avoid going there to look, if they offend, and if they want to return here they will have to follow in the footsteps of AntonyG.

    That sounds to be a threat el gordo, and I can’t say that I am much partial to being threatened.

  242. No need to apologize AntonyG. You said things as you see it and had your reasons for doing so. Everyone’s opinions are welcomed and encouraged, excluding of course, those individuals that are banned from the Cafe because of repeated innapropriate behaviour.

  243. Don’t worry Tom, the ‘concern troll’ will now doubtless do her usual little pitter patter back ‘elsewhere’ to do her usual suck up effort to da Big Twolls…

  244. Avoid going there to look

    Good advice. I hardly go there unless I’m totally bored. There’s nothing of interest there. But others might go there who are easily offended.

  245. ‘That sounds to be a threat el gordo, and I can’t say that I am much partial to being threatened.’

    What? I was talking to Migs, suggesting the best way not to be offended is ignore what goes on at Trash Headquarters.

    ‘Justify it all you like, a troll is a troll.’

    When TB said wind farms suck its alright, but if I dare mention it I’m a troll.

    ‘…suck up effort to da Big Twolls…’

    The old troupe is getting back together again and I was hoping TomR might drop over for a bit of a laugh.

  246. Ok, then el gordo so you were just telling Miglo what to do. Then I would suggest that in the future that you don’t act as the gutter’s courier girl. You’ve been caught out several times for what I would consider poor form behaviour, making statements on this blog and then trying to stir up trouble on other blogs. And that is troll-like behaviour.

  247. “And CO2 doesn’t cause global warming, so I’m concerned about her blind faith in this bogus theory.”

    So is the globe warming or isn’t it el gordo? You seem to be sending out mixed messages on this now whereas only a short time ago you were stating that the globe was definitely cooling.

    I note that you again make definitive statements, no ifs and buts, something no scientist or true sceptic does, nor the more informed proponents and opponents.

    But somehow you are better than all of them and know for absolute certainty what the actuality of the matter is, and you do so with no scientific knowledge on the subject or any grounding in the subject.

    Impressive to know more than 95% of the specialist scientists in the world and untold numbers of educated experts across many fields along with a huge swath of the globe’s knowledgeable population.

  248. but if I dare mention it I’m a troll.

    It goes to history. You have a history of deliberatley misleading and throwing up links you know full well are false.

    TB is simply putting his opinion forward. He doesn’t try and justify it with lies and misrepresentations, he states it as his opinion. It’s his his opinion, and I respect it it for what it is, if I agree or not.

    You simply seek to perpetuate the lies of the denialiti, and misrepresent the work of the scientists, which makes you nothing but a rent seeking troll in my book, and yours by your own admission.

  249. O’Farrell fronting the enquiry into the Orica spills doing what he promised he would never do if he won power and doing what he always accused the Labor government of doing, he’s abrogating blame and making excuses.

    I lost count of how many times O’Farrell in opposition said there are no excuses when you are the government, the responsibility always stops with you. It appears what he meant to say is that there are no excuses if you are a Labor government, there are always excuses when I’m in power.

    His hypocrisy knows no bounds.

  250. ‘So is the globe warming or isn’t it el gordo?’

    It’s cooling now but, as Latif said, it will probably warm up again in 20 years.
    I cannot discount this, it’s what the sceptics believe and they may be right.

    The Denialati are more pessimistic and think we are on the brink of a mini ice age, a drop of two or three degrees in Europe is all that’s required.

  251. ‘…which makes you nothing but a rent seeking troll…’

    I’ll clear out until you’re in a better frame of mind.

  252. A drop of two or three degrees in Europe is all that’s required.

    Which would only take them back to the temperatures they were experiencing 30 years ago.

  253. Just to further expose the misrepresentation that grodo perpetuates, this is what Latif has actually really said, and I am fairly sure grodo is aware of it

    The Mail on Sunday article said that Latif’s research showed that the current cold weather heralds such “a global trend towards cooler weather”.

    It said: “The BBC assured viewers that the big chill was was merely short-term ‘weather’ that had nothing to do with ‘climate’, which was still warming. The work of Prof Latif and the other scientists refutes that view.”

    Not according to Latif. “They are not related at all,” he said. “What we are experiencing now is a weather phenomenon, while we talked about the mean temperature over the next 10 years. You can’t compare the two.“

    http://deepclimate.org/2010/01/11/mojib-latif-slams-daily-mail/

    Sorry to be labouring point, but this kind of deliberate misdirection, particlarly on such an important issue, really riles me, and I refuse to put up with it without hitting back.

  254. Tom R, people can deny all they like. They are in the small minority that have absolutely no idea what’s going on in the real world. Hitting back is to be commended, but I get the feeling you might be wasting your time. Your argument, however, is not lost on me.

  255. It’s the same everywhere, Tom R. I heard an American scientist on radio lament that whilst 90% of scientists in his country believe the climate is changing, the media only hand the microphones to the 10% who don’t.

    If its frustrating for us, just think how frustrating it must be for those guys. It’d be like handing up an exam paper with the correct answers only to be given a fail.

  256. The stats are in!

    99% of all bloggers who have ever visited Café Whispers believe in climate change. El gordo sits in the corner with that bloke from NZ who comes here occasionally.

    99% don’t believe in God.

    99% are left leaning.

    1% are Port Adelaide supporters.

  257. Over at News Ltd, the shock headline would read

    Half of All School Children Below Average

    They would say that wouldn’t they. So would I, as this is how “averages” are calculated.

  258. Reading some of the cross posting troll comments above I was reminded of the famous lines:

    Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

    and

    From deep within our secret soul do demons dwell and take their toll

    What would we do without talented poets.

    Oh well back to the lathe to cut some more chinese balls (not a racist/sexist remark that is what they are called).

  259. “It’s cooling now but, as Latif said, it will probably warm up again in 20 years.”

    The weather is cooling now, not the climate. We posted links of this animated graph showing how the short term cooling weather is used by the deniers to debunk global warming whilst ignoring the long term climate trend of the warming.

    Maybe that’s why el gordo has shifted her position as not all that long ago she was saying without any provisos the globe was definitely cooling, now she is just as adamant the globe is cooling because of weather but will warm in the next couple of decades or so, the period previously stated as when the global cooling would occur.

    And after all this flipping flopping I still don’t know if we need to prepare to adapt to being cold or hot.

  260. It would seem that the optimal shape for the nose is flat, people with that characteristic living in both extremes of climate. It would therefore be safe to claim that via natural selection all people with big noses are on their way to extinction.

  261. “It would seem that the optimal shape for the nose is flat”

    That is terrible news Min, especially with the nose I have.

  262. As are all white skinned people Min.

    Because of the increasing mix of races and intermarriages around the world, fair skin is slowly but surely disappearing. I can’t remember the time frame given in the piece I read but in several generations down the track white skin will be a rarity on Earth.

  263. ME, in my opinion, this cannot happen quickly enough.

    If they turn out like some of my grand and great grand children, the human eace will indeed be beautiful.

  264. Have I got it right. Qantas wants to outsource all their labour.

    That this will be the last agreement made.

    That all future labour will be provided by by a subsidiary of Qantas.

    This smells very much of what Mr. Reith encourage with Patricks.

    That is transferring all employment responsibilities to a straw company with no money.

    The outcome will be that Qantas will sack all their employees.

    At the same time, they will replace these workers with those from their subsidiary company, by-passing all award wages and conditions.

    Is it also true that Qantas and the media are alleging that the employees are wanting job security, that other workers do not have.

    Is it true, that when firms cut staff, because of bad times, they do not immediately replace the staff with cheaper labour.

    ARE QANTAS EMPLOYEES BEING UNREASONABLE IN WANTING QANTAS TO RELEASE THEIR FUTURE PLANS.

    Is what being proposed the same a outsourcing work overseas.

    Is it fair or reasonable to expect workers to accept Qantas plans without putting up resistance.

    Do bosses have any responsibilities to their workers.

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