Open Thread VII

We’re up to our seventh page already! Keep talking.

Here is the link to the previous Open Thread:

Open Thread VI

448 comments on “Open Thread VII

  1. Pip on Open Thread VI “Cu, I think Abbott has upset many in his own nest and the musical chairs have been dusted off ready for the games to begin..”

    I thought it interesting that the Courier Mail are lumping Abbott and Hockey together. Old Sloppy was for a short while standing up to Abbott..but always rolled over to have his tummy tickled and since has gone very quiet.

    Now, if something is happening and from all the recent anti-Abbott things amazingly appearing in news.com – then it’s got to be Turnbull and Robb.

  2. Did any one see Hunt after the Bills passed. There he was still banging on about how bad the carbon tax is and the noddies, such as Abetz, were behind him.

    And who would have guessed that Hunt was a bigger man than Abbott. There he was supporting the deniers, having trashed his own thesis, and where was DE Man, hiding in the UK. Abbott you wimp.

  3. Sue,
    Greg Hunt was banging on about Coogee Chemicals, in the PM’s electorate, and how they would have to move their business to China. PM Gillard said yesterday corrected that, and today Erica was still banging on about Coogee Chemicals etc.
    Today Erica was saying that the government had sold it’s soul for the Greens when in fact Greg Hunt is the one who has sold out on his own beliefs.

    So much for Abbott lasting to the end…..”fly away Tony”

  4. Min, Hockey blew it along with Robb over their Budget costings assumptions ‘audit’ which is still under investigation, and only ever reported on by Peter Martin.

    It looks as if Robb isn’t in the same basket [as in basket-case] as Abbott and Hockey, and ltd news wants to be first with any news of a rumble.

    My how things have changed, and so quickly.
    Do you think Tones will stay away for a while ??

  5. Tony Abbott’s credibility is now shot to pieces..he said that this tax would pass over his dead body but instead he slunk off overseas.

    Abbott has relied on over the top rhetoric to get his face on the tellie, over my dead body, written in blood.

    I wonder which bodily fluid Tony is going to use to stop the mining tax.

  6. New ad campaign to follow historic carbon tax Senate vote

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-plan/senate-votes-on-carbon-price-amid-hopes-of-a-comeback-in-world-markets/story-fn99tjf2-1226188968833

    Ms Gillard said she understood many Australians were still anxious about the impact of the carbon price on themselves and their families.

    .She said her government – which has already spent $24 million advertising the tax – would counter an opposition fear campaign with accurate information on the impact of the carbon tax.

    “Of course, we will keep explaining to people what putting a price on carbon means; that it means less carbon pollution, that it means clean energy jobs and opportunities; that it means more money in the pockets of people that need that money the most,” Ms Gillard said.

    “We will be getting the information to people that they do need.”

    Actually the costs will come from general revenue, just as the multi millions spent by John Howard on his WorkChoices ads did.

  7. NBN – legislation passed

    Carbon pricing – legislation passed

    Next up, Plain packaging on cigarettes –

    Libs should return tobacco money: NSW oppn

    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8371525/libs-should-return-tobacco-money-nsw-oppn

    The NSW Liberal Party pocketed a $40,000 donation from the tobacco industry after parliament passed laws outlawing the practice.

    Concerns about the influence of the alcohol, gaming and tobacco industries on lawmakers resulted in the legislation being passed last November.

    But the laws didn’t take effect for three months, and data from the Election Funding Authority (EFA) shows the Liberal Party received a $40,000 gift from British American Tobacco during this time.

  8. Min,
    I wonder which bodily fluid Tony is going to use to stop the mining tax

    That reminds me of an old saying about …into the wind….

  9. What has changed in the last week. Not much as far as I can see.

    The only change is the change in the attitude of MSM and a slight but slow rise in the polls, for Labor, since September.

    There has been a whiff of trouble in the Liberal party also since this time.

    Why is the PM now OK. Why is Mr. Abbott now on the nose.

    One suggestion is business are not willing to see the economy trashed any further.

    “…The Coalition has had it good for most of 2011, as Labor struggled with a lack of policy detail and a rampant Tony Abbott. Now, it seems, the tide has turned against it. Its repeal policy looks increasingly problematic, and its own “direct action” policy is discredited. The only thing in its favour remains voter resentment toward Julia Gillard over her backflip on the issue…”

    “…But in the chamber today, like their Coalition forebears in 1993 on native title and like the Labor Party on the GST in 1999, the opposition looks a party stranded by ideology and opportunism on the wrong side of history….”

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/11/08/its-the-greens-day-anyway-you-look-at-it/

    We have been talking about things changing for weeks. Today, it looks like they have. It is still a long way from the next election, but the fat lady definitely has not sung yet.

    .

  10. Min, is that slunk or slinked. I could never get that one myself. Nah Roswell no flying pigs, Abbott could never gain the momentum to get off the ground.

  11. It is a shame Miglo is not around to enjoy the changes in the political arena.

    I do not Hope he is in a situation to come back soon.

    I do not know about others but I kinda miss him

  12. On the off chance that Labor recovers to be on par with the Coalition, within a year, Turnbull would challenge Yabbott and win.

    Not that I see it happening.

  13. Could this be because of tony, and the stories are similar

    Queensland Liberal National Party leader Campbell Newman has suffered a dent in his lead over Ashgrove MP Kate Jones, a new poll shows.
    While prospective premier Mr Newman still has a lead, his support has dropped almost five per cent since the beginning of September.

    “He lost his cool at one meeting and he talked about all the faults of the government and then he had some problems the following week on some issues,” Dr Prasser said.

    “Also the opposition has not really released any policies.”

    Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/newmans-ashgove-lead-shrinks-20111108-1n57w.html#ixzz1d6EuGy00

  14. “I wonder which bodily fluid Tony is going to use to stop the mining tax.”

    He may as well piss into the wind.

    He will have as much success with the MRRT as he has had with all his threats.

    What type of idiot makes threats that he has no hope of carrying out.

    Whats more, he does not comprehend that he can’t carry out his threats

    He must believe that creating fear is enough..

  15. El gordo, by the look of recent stories coming from the Murdoch media I would say that Turnbull and Robb are positioning themselves. If Labor were to lose, at least losing to Turnbull would be acceptable..in comparison to having Abbott as PM that is.

  16. “Abbott could never gain the momentum to get off the ground.”

    Maybe the problem is that he has never found the ground or reality.

  17. Twice today, on the issue of the cancelled tender and the police being called in I heard ABC journalists, Lyndal Curtis and Fran Kelly ask

    “Do police investigations ever find the leaker?”

    Cover your ears cafe patrons

    2009 GODWIN GRECH .

    If Kelly and Curtis do not know the story just ask MALCOLM TURNBULL and any public servant in Canberra.

  18. They spent time this morning with a fairy tale of the stress between the PM and the FM.

    Somehow but not said, would it be Rudd.

  19. Min@ 7.20
    are you assuming the australian government will not adopt a “fit and proper person ” test for media owners. If they do the way things are going in the UK, murdoch may not be around come the next election.

  20. Conroy was asked in QT if Sky or the ABC had knowledge of what was leaked. Conroy declined to answer, saying it is the hands of the police.

    It is a question I would not mind an answer to, but Conroy is correct. It is now a police matter.
    Who has the most to gain. Well the ABC and Sky do. Next is the Opposition.

  21. ‘If Labor were to lose, at least losing to Turnbull would be acceptable..in comparison to having Abbott as PM that is.’

    Yeah, we will be watching the polls with renewed interest.

  22. The Carbon tax as reported o/s

    The laws will see Australia join the European Union and New Zealand with national emissions trading schemes. California’s starts in 2013, while China and South Korea are working on carbon trading programmes. India has a coal tax, while South Africa plans to place carbon caps on its top polluters.

    “This is a very positive step for the global effort on climate change. It shows that the world’s most emissions-intensive advanced economy is prepared to use a market mechanism to cut carbon emissions in a low-cost way,” said Deutsche Bank carbon analyst Tim Jordan.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/08/australia-senate-passes-carbon-tax

  23. And how about this on biofuels

    US airlines were racing this week to demonstrate their clean energy credentials, scheduling a number of flights powered partially by biofuels.

    First United Continental announced the departure on Monday morning of Flight 1403 from Houston for Chicago – or the ‘Eco Skies test flight’ as the airline called it – using a mix of 60% conventional jet fuel and 40% algae-based fuels.

    Alaska Airlines then announced it would operate 75 flights using a mix of 80% conventional jet fuels and 20% biofuels starting on Wednesday. Instead of algae-base, the airline is using used cooking oil or fast-food restaurant throwaways, said Robert Ames, vice-president of Dynamic Fuels, which produced the fuel.

    “We can use vegetable oil. We can use used cooking oil,” he said. “A good mental reference is McDonald’s used fryer grease.”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/08/us-airlines-biofuels-powering-flights

  24. From a story only last week. Police Minister Ryan and his sacked assistant Tilley, agree to disagree on evidence to OPI. More to come from this story, but to claim integrity, is amazing.

    ““Individually we both assisted the OPI with their inquiry — both of us provided information according to the best of our knowledge, belief and recollection.

    “Both of us stand by the evidence we gave to that inquiry. We have acted with integrity.”

    http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/ryan-tilley-agree-to-disagree/2351043.aspx

  25. More on the govts infrastructure spending

    Hume Woomargama bypass open
    Mr Albanese said road safety was a prime advantage and the nine- kilometre road was as much about “saving lives” as achieving productivity and efficiency on the interstate transport corridor.
    The Woomargama and Tarcutta bypasses will take up to 2700 trucks a day off the local streets of the villages,’’ Mr Aplin said.
    Cr Osborne and several Greater Hume councillors welcomed the bypass opening.
    “We’ve been waiting for it for many years, possibly 20 years,’’ she said.

    http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/hume-woomargama-bypass-open/2350235.aspx

  26. Even now, you poor fools don’t see it do you, despite that lovely Mr Abbott’s best efforts. This is AUSTRALIA, and Robert Menzies has arranged with God for us to be exempted from all the world’s problems & concerns, so long as we keep voting for the Federal Coalition. The skies will NOT warm over our part of the world, we CAN borrow all the money we want and pay it back sometime or other at almost nonexistent interest rates, neighbouring countries WILL cheerfully find room for a few thousand more refugees, fulfilling their reason for being and still other countries WILL continue to buy rocks off us forever ensuring we don’t have to pay much tax, the people who dig them up least of all, whilst the Coalition’s fiscal wizardry will ensure there are always more budgetary savings to be found thus enabling every service you could dream of to be provided for you. I despair of you lot.

  27. It will be interesting to see what unforeseen stuff ups happen because of the carbon tax.

    The ALP is the party of the unforeseen stuff up.

  28. How the mother country sees us. Is not this the opposite to what we are told. That is that we are going alone. It appears we have plenty of company.

    “…The laws will see Australia join the European Union and New Zealand with national emissions trading schemes. California’s starts in 2013, while China and South Korea are working on carbon trading programmes. India has a coal tax, while South Africa plans to place carbon caps on its top polluters.

    “This is a very positive step for the global effort on climate change. It shows that the world’s most emissions-intensive advanced economy is prepared to use a market mechanism to cut carbon emissions in a low-cost way,” said Deutsche Bank carbon analyst Tim Jordan.

    The government hopes securing the carbon price laws will help reignite the push for a global agreement to curb emissions and fight global warming ahead of international talks in Durban in December.

  29. BSA Why do you think that some Liberal PMs feel the need to rule by creating fear in the community. Menzies and Howard are the two that come to mind.

    To be fair, I cannot remember Gorton going down this road. I remember this man voting against himself when he had the casting vote when challenged. He did not believe in winning at all cost. He was the only Liberal I believe I could vote for.

    There was Holt. the one that manage to drown himself. He was not around long.

    As for McMahon, he was a joke.

    Then we have Fraser, the one who lost his pants in the USA.

    What they all have in common, as far as I am concerned, is that none of them built much.

    I also cannot bring to mind is much great reform.

    Menzie and Howard has much in common as long as being around for a long time. Bothj ruled by divide and rule. Both use and created fear. Both took ths country to war.

    Both left behind a divided and weak party.

    This is a bias view of Liberal history

    I have a feeling Ihave left someone out.

  30. Heard something interesting. Apparently the Senate vote on the Carbon tax was due for some time in the future.

    Labor brought forward the vote because they knew that Abbott would not be in the country.

  31. Catching up, I think BSA Bob was only stirring, if his earlier comments are anything to go by.

    Neil, where on earth did you hear that rubbish? And only you would believe it.

  32. Neil, I believe it was due tomorrow. I think it was also thought that Abbott was flying out tonight. If that is the case. They were giving Mr. Abbott the chance to be here.

    If one listened to the last couple of days debate, the Opposition was not interested in debating the bill. All they were interested in was slagging the PM.

    Why waste time, bring it on earlier and deal with other matters that were put on hold. Remember the plain packaging was one of those bills.

    What the Opposition forgets, that thanks to the computer and to a lesser extent ABC24 and Sky we get to see what is going on.

    In the committee stage, most were getting up, ranting and raving for the 15 minutes or so. Not one question or amendment put forwarded.

    There is a limit to how many times one wants to hear, she lied. That is the Opposition whole case.

    Yes, Neil, I believe you heard right. I am also sure you heard that they were denied time for proper debate of the legislation.

    I do not know when the day was changed.

    I was stirring too.

  33. Well it was brought forward by two days. Don’t know if Abbott would have been back. The final deadline was Nov 21

  34. Barnaby Jocye has stated the vote was brought forward so Brown could attend some conference in Durban.

    But it was rammed through the Senate

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-03/senate-passes-guillotine-motion-on-carbon-tax-debate/3616978

    “The Senate has passed a motion to cut short debate on the Federal Government’s carbon tax bills so they can be passed next Tuesday.

    Labor’s guillotine motion passed the Upper House with support from the Greens this morning………………..”The bills have clearly been rushed, and I say so because even this morning the Government was downloading parts of the bill on the internet,” he said.”

  35. http://www.argusmedia.com/News/Article?id=772977

    “The vote on the Clean Energy legislation, which contains a bill to implement a carbon tax of A$23/t ($23.70/t) from 1 July 2012, has been brought forward from the week starting 21 November. The change in the voting dates follows a move by the Labor-led minority government with the support of the Greens party, which holds the balance of power in the Senate, to amend the legislation schedule.”

  36. the carbon price debate was entirely wasted by the Coalition because they did not debate it.
    What they did was something Nil is familiar with. Repeating nonsense !

  37. Neil, one day. Today is Tuesday.

    It was schedule for Wednesday originally. I do not know when it was changed.

    Mr. Abbott is attending a meeting chaired by Mr. Howard in England on Thursday.

    Mr. Abbott could have left tonight to get there on time.

    I do not know if Mr. Abbott’s planned any diversions, like seeing the troops. I have not heard of him doing this.

    I cannot imagine him missing out on another photo shot with a gun. I cannot imagine him letting the PM get one up on him.

    No, Neil, they have not set Mr. Abbott up.

    The opposite is true. He could have been still in the country, if he wanted to be.

    It is said he will be away four days.

  38. No, it was scheduled for Wednesday this week.

    They were given extra time, by the senate sitting this week.

    It has never never been the 21st as far as I know. That is the week, I believe the President is coming.

    The senate was schedule to sit for extra sittings to this week to accommodate the bill.

  39. It was not rammed through the parliament. It was given many more hours than for example, the GST.

    They abused the hours they were given. That is not the governments fault.

    They had a choice, debate the bill or play games. They choose to play games.

  40. Cu,
    Neil won’t like me saying so, but Abbott didn’t need to be here scaremongering and demanding an election, or denouncing the carbon ‘tax’.
    It’s over for him, and his band wagon are moving on at a rapid pace while he is away :grin:

    I wonder who paid for his airfare to London ?

  41. Funny tweet about Greg Hunt

    chrisdubrow Chris Dubrow
    by slabb0

    RT@people_skills:
    Congrats @GregHuntMP, your lifelong dream of a #carbonprice, as per your thesis, is now a reality. You must be thrilled!!

    He should be feeling like a fool !!

  42. Neil, I think that the schedule could have been change for other reasons.

    “2 Nov 2011, 7.09 am GMT
    Sydney, 2 November (Argus) — Australia’s upper house of parliament the Senate will vote on 8 November on imposing a carbon tax on the domestic economy, with the legislation now expected to pass following two previous rejections.

    The vote on the Clean Energy legislation, which contains a bill to implement a carbon tax of A$23/t ($23.70/t) from 1 July 2012, has been brought forward from the week starting 21 November. The change in the voting dates follows a move by the Labor-led minority government with the support of the Greens party, which holds the balance of power in the Senate, to amend the legislation schedule.”

    It was changed last week. This weeks sitting of the senate is extra time.

    I also believe you will find that this gives the Opposition more more time to debate the bill.

    If it was voted for on the 21st. That is a Monday, at the beginning of the next sitting days. there would have been less debating time.

    So, yes

    That is a shocking thing for the government to do.

  43. Neil, it was not rammed through.

    On your evidence, they were given more time, which they abused.

    It is very expensive to provide extra sitting days.

  44. There are some coming to the meeting Mr. Howard is chairing, from the USA.

    One does wonder where the Teaparty fits in.

    I do not know.

    It is some right wing do.

  45. Looks like I might be wrong, on Neils evidence, it was schedule for the 8th. That is today.

    The imformation I seen elsewhere has misled me.

  46. RT@people_skills:
    Congrats @GregHuntMP, your lifelong dream of a #carbonprice, as per your thesis, is now a reality. You must be thrilled!!

    That is a load of crap. I had a flick once through Hunts thesis and it was about putting a tax on pollution to help clean up the environment. The pollution Hunts thesis was talking about is the pollution we used to being called pollution.

    Things like toxic chemicals being pumped into streams by factories. Hunts thesis was not about putting a tax on carbon dioxide.

    That tweet is why i never believe anything an ALP supporters says. They always twist the truth.

  47. Neil, this time you are lying. If not you have been duped badly.

    The thesis was on carbon pollution and climate change.

    Mr. Hunt believed the best way of dealing with the problem was a market based cost on carbon emissions.

    Also I would like to add, is not it time to stop calling it a carbon tax. it is not.

  48. No Neil – have a proper read. The paper was about the use of economic measures to control ANY pollutant. The emphasis is on the economic, not the pollutant :roll: It is you who choose to “twist” Mr Hunt’s words…

  49. No Neil – have a proper read.”

    Well i saw it on Peter martins blog. I did not have a detailed look but it seemed to be talking about toxic chemicals entering streams from factories for example.

    I did not see any mention of CO2 as a pollutant.

    But if you have a link I would be interested in having another look.

  50. Neil, why should we provide a link when you already know where to find it? Try looking on Peter Martin’s blog again.

  51. C.U. at 10.34
    I don’t think you left out any Liberal P.M.s. McEwen (C.P.) is the only other Coalition P.M. I can recall. In answer to your question as to why the Liberals create fear, I think we can start with the fact that they’re a party set up for the sole reason of securing government, as their chronicler Peter Van O. has pointed out. For a party whose sole aim is to remain in power the attraction of spreading fear about anything that suits is obvious. Doesn’t matter what it’s about, don’t vote us in & you’re stuffed, vote us out & you’re stuffed. Some years ago Peter Hartcher wrote a Quarterly Essay about , among other aspects of his tactics, Howard’s use of fear. It was called “Bipolar Nation” & is a good read.

    Neil at 9.31
    I reckon you’ve got the Ltd News & Coalition line of attack sorted. We can look forward to a constant barrage of “incompetence in delivery” stories as they shift ground from straight opposition.

  52. Thanks for that. I was half stirring, but we as a Nation do have an inclination to respond to fear tactics. I think that Mr. Abbott does not have the skill. One has to be subtle, he is not,

    I do think that a little political history does not go amiss. I find that many so called journalist have little knowledge of history of any kind.

    By the way ABC news at 7pm did not say carbon tax. Maybe there is hope.

  53. Neil, it is really simple. You make the trash, you pay for the damage it does. You pay to get rid of it.

    You produce carbon emissions, you pay to clean it up. You pay for the damage.

    Simple.

  54. Catching up, here ’tis

    Carbon Price: What was the Question Again?
    July 8, 2011

    http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2011/07/08/carbon-price-what-was-the-question-again/

    For the last ten months we have been told repeatedly about the great
    big lie that Julia Gillard told: There will be no carbon tax under a government I lead.

    The full statement reads a little differently.

    “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead”.
    “What we will do is we will tackle the challenge of climate change”.

    Does anyone remember the question which prompted that statement?

  55. * The right side of history – Clean Energy Future legislation passes the parliament

    Julia Gillard posted Tuesday, 8 November 2011

    http://www.alp.org.au/blogs/alp-blog/november-2011/the-right-side-of-history—clean-energy-future-le/

    ** Labor Reform To The Core
    Greg Combet posted Tuesday, 8 November 2011

    http://www.alp.org.au/blogs/alp-blog/november-2011/labor-reform-to-the-core/

    *** Speech: Minister Wong Clean Energy Bill 2011
    Penny Wong posted Tuesday, 8 November 2011

    http://www.alp.org.au/federal-government/news/speech–minister-wong-clean-energy-bill-2011/

    **** Climate Change Passes
    Andrew Leigh posted Tuesday, 8 November 2011

    http://www.alp.org.au/blogs/alp-blog/november-2011/climate-change-passes/

  56. Opposition anger at Tony Abbott’s policy consultation
    by: Matthew Franklin, Chief political correspondent
    From: The Australian November 09, 2011 12:00AM

    TONY Abbott faces criticism from within his own party for not seeking frontbench approval for a new anti-dumping policy attacked by Labor as out of step with World Trade Organisation rules.
    And Labor has derided the Opposition Leader as an economic xenophobe in a strong attack designed to consolidate its campaign to portray him as a political opportunist stuck in a cycle of constant negativity.

    Log In…no thank you ….
    .

  57. Another explanation of what the Prime minister REALLY said about putting a price on carbon emissions before the last election.

    I’d be Lying if I said the Price on Carbon wasn’t Taxing me too.

    http://newsdelimited.blogspot.com/2011/11/id-be-lying-if-i-said-price-on-carbon.html

    And all of this vitriol is apparently based on an alleged lie perpetrated by Gillard on the eve of the election. A lie which, if it were ever to be examined truthfully by our meeja, would be exposed not as a lie, but actually as a PM pursuing, at its core, precisely what was promised on the eve of the election. Our media is simply (and imo deliberately) refusing to acknowledge the reality of this statement, and preferring to perpetuate the ongoing hatred and vehemence this ‘alleged’ lie has exposed.

  58. Last one, by Grogs Gamut/Greg Jericho.

    On the QT: Attacks, a tax and semantics.

    http://grogsgamut.blogspot.com/2011/03/on-qt-attacks-tax-and-semantics.html

    HOST: And you have agreed that the fixed price is the same as the carbon tax?

    PM: Laurie, I didn’t want to get caught up in what I knew would be one of those semantic word games about whether or not I would say the word ‘tax’. You know how these games are played, Laurie. A politician decides they are not going to say a word, and then media, people like yourself, Laurie, spend weeks trying to make them say it. I wasn’t going to do any of that.

    I’ve been racking my brains through the long months of deceit by the media and the Coalition trying to remember which journalist tried this trick and made it work in his favour… it turned out to be Laurie Oakes, the wiliest old devil in the Press Gallery !!!

  59. Now that Abbott will have some time to think, all that flying and conferences to sit sill at, do you think he could put his mind to not embarrassing himself and his side of politics when Obama is in town.

    Those climate deniers, convoyers of no consequence, shock jocks, past it rockers, coalition members should not make fools of themselves by staging a local political protest on an international guest, the President of the USA.

    They behaved themselves by not staging protests like ditch the w****, while the Queen was here, so the same restraint should occur with the President.

  60. Sue, after reading Paul Kelly, Tony Abbott might not be in a position to embarass anyone at all :grin:
    The worms have turned.

    Super backflip breaks dam for Abbott
    by: Paul Kelly, Editor-At-Large From: The Australian November 09, 2011 12:00AM Increase

    THE Tony Abbott-led Coalition’s buckling before Labor’s increase in the superannuation guarantee from 9 per cent to 12 per cent is a great victory for the Gillard government and signals the Coalition’s admission that its political strategy is off the rails and needs correction.

    .

  61. Well Bacchus the first line in Hunts thesis says “Industrial waste within Victoria is now regarded as a threat to both personal health and social prosperity.”

    Hunt is talking about taxing Industrial waste not CO2. I guess if you think CO2 is a pollutant you could tax CO2 produced by factories.

  62. Mr Butler said the Left respects the rights of churches and other religious organisations to restrict marriages in their organisation to that between a man and a woman.

    Subsequently, any change to the Marriage Act would be accompanied by legislation to protect churches and other religious organisations from anti-discrimination lawsuits should they refuse to conduct same-sex marriage ceremonies.

    To me the above sounds reasonable. By changing the Marriage Act to allow the marriage of same sex couples Australia would be ending one of the last anomalies of discrimination. However, I do believe that some churches should be given the right to not marry same sex couples without coming foul of anti-discrimination legislation.

    Of course at present many churches reserve the right to not be under a compulsion to marry ‘some people’ – divorced, not of the congregation etc but in these instances do not contravene anti-discrimination. On the other hand refusing to marry people because of gender, race or color would. Practically speaking, who would want to be married under the auspices of a religious organisation which considers gay relationships ‘a sin’ anyway!

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/left-ready-to-fight-for-gay-marriage-20111108-1n5lu.html#ixzz1d9AxVnzL

  63. Neil, use your imagination.

    Mr, Hunt has never denied that it can also be used when addressing carbon emissions.

    It is the same methodology. His scheme works the same way.

    Carbon emissions are industrial waste. They are released into the atmosphere. The same as waste into a river.

    Industrial waste = released into the environment=causes damage.

    Carbon emission=industrial waste=release into the environment=causes damage.

  64. Mr. Hunt was called to task for not answering question asked by Virginia. The question was, you would need the economy to collapsed to prove your point. Is that what you want.

    Mr. Hunt continued not to answer. Virginia asked again, pointing out that some business where calling for bi-partisanship.

    Still has not answered. Virginia not happy. I do not think Hunt is either. He was shocked to be called to task,

  65. Greg Hunt on Pollution, not just waste as in what goes down to the Council tip, waste as in environmental waste aka pollution. It’s a thesis not a high school assignment.

    3.2 THE ECONOMIC MEANS BY WHICH THE TAX REDUCES POLLUTION. We would advocate a system of emission charges in which the desirable pollution level is identified by the political process.

  66. Neil, you have hit the jackpot. You can put a charge on carbon emissions produced by the factories. That is what is being done.

  67. Pip
    And a small change in attitude from Grattan, on Kelly’s radio program.
    Talking on Abbott not being present.
    Grattan: If Abbott had been present you would have had grabs of his speech, as it is you have Barnaby Joyce.
    Kelly: But it was the Senate, so abbott didn’t have to be there
    Grattan: Yes, but after all the bluster of the pairs ( and I believe a number of pairs were given yesterday) it was a bad look for him not to be there. And besides this is a meeting he went to he did not have to attend.

    And now Kelly interviewing Hunt is picking him up on the ” after the next election we will have a mandate”
    Kelly : You must concede after the 2007 election Kevin Rudd had a mandate to bring in the CPRS and the Senate rejected it.

    Kelly had him having to think up excuses on the run about being very picky about the coalitions definition of”mandate”

  68. “Yes but Hunts thesis is about Industrial pollution. I do not think he mentioned CO2″

    Neil it is about industrial waste. Carbon emissions are industrial waste.

  69. Sue @8.27pm and biofuels. I must pass that article onto youngest – that is her PhD thesis for the Institute of Molecular Bioscience.

  70. And some more bad news for Hockey and that black landslip ( I can no longer refer to a hole as it getting a dangerous size)

    “The officials also delivered bad news for the opposition, which is deeply split over a decision by the leader, Tony Abbott, to keep the superannuation increases the mining tax will help fund, despite vowing to abolish the tax.

    In the next four years, the super increase is worth $740 million to the budget, which Mr Abbott said he would find through savings. But the officials said the figure did not include associated tax breaks on super contributions for low-income earners. This takes the full cost of the super package over the next four years to $2.6 billion.”

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/treasurer-lashes-forrests-tax-claim-20111108-1n5n7.html#ixzz1d9Q6dTVh

  71. The PM has a mandate from the people who voted for her, in her electorate to sit as a MP.

    All MP have a similar mandate. This mandate obliges MPs to act on their behalf of their electorate..

    MPs in the Labor Caucus have given the PM a mandate to lead the party in parliament. Mr. Abbott is given a mandate to lead the Coalition by Liberal MPs.

    The PM has a mandate to govern by having the numbers in the floor of the lower house.

    The PM can lose this mandate by a vote of no confidence on the floor of the lower house.

    Not getting legislation through does NOT negate the mandate.

    The PM is expected to govern on behalf of all the people.

    The mandate enables the PM to put forwarded legislation to be passed by both houses.

    It is the parliament that makes laws.

    The PM has the numbers and the confidence of the lower house. Therefore she has a mandate to govern as she sees fit.

    The PM has been very successful in getting legislation through parliament.

    Whether you like or do not like is not, does not lessen the mandate.

    The voter has the opportunity to voice their distrust at the next election, according to the Constitution.

    If you think about it, this is the only way democracy can work. This is the only way governments can introduce necessary unpopular reforms.

    Parties are not mentioned in the Constitution. The role of PMs is also not mentioned.

    There is nothing about minority or majority governments.

    It is the numbers on the floor of the house. It does not matter where they come from.

  72. A bit of unfortunate advertising for Accountants BDO, all from the request of their client, Andrew Forrest

    “Mr Swan’s letter to the head of BDO, John Murray, is extraordinary in that it includes an executive minute by the Treasury, tearing apart the BDO modelling.

    The minute accuses BDO of overstating the deductions and understating the revenue of the big miners

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/treasurer-lashes-forrests-tax-claim-20111108-1n5n7.html#ixzz1d9Qp0J5z

    Hopefully they received a generous remittance for all the difficult modelling that had to support the payers requirements.

  73. The PM is very clever. The PM takes the opportunity to include many economic, welfare and taxation reforms within her legislation.

    Worthwhile reforms at that. Mr. Rudd started the practice with the Stimulation bills.

    I was wrong yesterday. There were 18 not 19 bills passed

    The nineteenth is being passed today. Something to do with employment, I think.

  74. CU
    I hope Hunt gets to read your piece, he definitely does not want to understand the workings of parliament. He must have left his understanding at the door to the opposition party propaganda room.

    Now if we can lever some journos off the propaganda room.

  75. Obama to visit AWM, while in ACT.

    “ACT Attorney-General Simon Corbell has confirmed the Government has made a declaration under the Major Events Security Act 2000 to give ACT Policing additional powers for Mr Obama’s visit to the memorial on November 17.

    The declaration covers the period between 6am and noon and allows ACT police extra powers to screen people for prohibited items and enforce restricted areas.”

    Loud hailers, megaphones not allowed. ACT govt not leaving it to Tony Abbott to keep his loyal followers in tow.

    There will be an area for protesters.

  76. Sue, it is only my opinion. There is no set in stone definition that I can find.

    To base a mandte on promises does not make sense.

    All governments discard promises. Sometimes this is actually a sensible thing to do.

    The word is govern. To govern, one has to meet needs as they arise.

  77. “There will be an area for protesters.”

    They did turn out for the Queen while in Melbourne with their posters.

  78. Sue @8.19am..I wouldn’t trust Twiggy Forrest as far as I could throw him, which wouldn’t be very far!

    Twiggy is one of ‘those’ types who have carefully cultivated a persona but the reality of his actions are far and away from the image.

  79. CU, I can’t see that you’ve put up a link to Ash’s blog…so here it is. With thanks to CU for the link:

    http://ashghebranious.wordpress.com/2011/11/09/tony-abbott-run-run-away/

    ts be absolutely clear here. Only two weeks ago, Abbott stood in front of cameras and pissed on the validity of the CHOGM and recently he mocked the G20. Now the same idiot has flown to the UK to meet heads of those governments coincidentally the exact same day that his political career has come to a close.

  80. Amazing isn’t it, prior to the carbon tax becoming law there was zero positive publicity. The day after we have stories such as these…

    FOR the federal government ”clean energy future” is the slogan used to sell its carbon tax package.

    But for Whyalla, and the rest of the Eyre Peninsula in South Australia – which Tony Abbott famously predicted would become ”a ghost town, an economic wasteland” and even be ”wiped off the map” under the carbon tax – clean energy is the future.

    Mark Cant, a former Liberal candidate for the SA Parliament and now the chief executive of the Whyalla and Eyre Peninsula Regional Development Board, said the district had advanced plans to become a renewable energy centre.

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/clean-options-look-good-for-area-written-off-as-a-wasteland-20111108-1n5n5.html#ixzz1d9bRrd8X

  81. El Gordo

    “Carbon dioxide is a harmless trace gas and NOT A POLLUTANT.”

    Only when it is in a low enough quantity to ensure being harmless.

    Like many trace elements and gasses, they are harmless when in small quantity yet become highly toxic when that concentration increases.

    Carbon Dioxide is proven to be increasing as a composite of the earths atmosphere.

    Charging big polluters is simply an attempt to force them to clean up their act and invest in less polluting operations to ( if nothing else) slow the growth of needless addition by humanity to the Carbon Dioxide concentration in the atmosphere.

    AS others on CW are aware, I am studying for a diploma which is now part of a requirement for my industry so I can only jump in and comment now and then.

    Neil I will come back to you on the mining tax income once I get a chance to do some research.

    I caught the end of Q & A the other night as it is something I usually do not watch. I must admit I was once again so very impressed with Malcolm Turnbull. here was a man with patience, integrity, vision, a vocabulary which extends beyond the words No and Big New Tax and a body language of genuine interest and determination. Why the extreme right sector of the party removed him for Tony Abbott by 1 vote will never cease to amaze me.

  82. Thanks Min, I thought I put it up. My computer is still deleting in the reply box. It is a nuisance

  83. Sue @ 8.19

    Rather than the black hole, landslip, a black sinkhole. As sinkholes have been known to swallow up huge areas an even men

    “An 80-year-old man who went to retrieve the morning papers on his lawn sank into an 8-foot hole on New York’s Long Island.
    Ciron joked that throughout the ordeal, “I held on to the papers.”

  84. Catching up regarding your comment, “The PM is very clever. The PM takes the opportunity to include many economic, welfare and taxation reforms within her legislation.” And yet Julia Gillard and her team are given very little recognition of this.

  85. No Min, I am just entering the comment. I am hitting something but I cannot work out what. Do not worry, I will or it will correct itself.

    When it deletes, it takes a line out at a time. I believe it is my computer.

    Abetz once again attacking the PM not the bill . Plenty of lies.

  86. el gordo, it is OK that you do not believe it to be a pollutant.

    I do not agree with you. I hope that is also OK.

    We agree to disagree.

  87. shaneinqld

    Re Turnbull “Why the extreme right sector of the party removed him for Tony Abbott by 1 vote will never cease to amaze me.”

    His ego, bigger than all the others in the Liberal party.
    Go back and read the complete story leading up to the unraveling of the Grech email. Even at the Journalist fund raising ball,Turnbull thought he had a Gotcha on Rudd and was threatening to expose Rudd’s assistant.
    But here was Turnbull the former owner of Ozemail, the IT expert caught out by a simple attempt to fabricate email evidence.
    Turnbull also was trying to corrupt the process of a government elected to office by trying to force an early election.
    The Coalition was caught out by a corrupt public servant, but he was a well known friend to the Coalition and so the Coalition was a very willing participant in the process. There are plenty in the Liberals who will never forgive Turnbull for that.

  88. The Coalitions performance in the senate is pathetic,

    Don’t they ever replay and look at what they re saying.

  89. Sue, do you suspect that Mr. Turnbull could have been set up by the likes of Minchin. It did get rid of him.

  90. CU
    And the msm could also report how pathetic they are, but that would require them actually observing and writing.

  91. CU, when you are scanning down through your comment try using the up and down arrows instead of Enter. Otherwise, you are no doubt right..it’s your computer ;)

  92. Sue, when I saw senator Wong rest on her hands yesterday, I thought the whole process had exhausted her. She was in tears at the following press conference.

    That is one strong lady. What she has put up with during this debate, would break anyone. It is time that the abuse of Labor women ceased.

    It is not necessary to abuse. I saw senator Wong nearly lose it yesterday. That is out of character. Tears for joy is one thing. Tears because of abuse is another.

    I think the PM is giving the narrative that Mr. Keating is demanding. Not that she is saying any new.The PM has been saying it all a long.

  93. Min, I think you are right, I suspect it is the enter button. I should go back to using word. I can see better doing it that way.

  94. Sue, I tend to agree..Turnbull was brought down by his own ego plus by using his tried and true business ‘ethics’.

    And then we have that Abetz was also in the thick of it – that leaks from Grech were standard practice for Turnbull. These leaks were used to cause maximum embarrassment for the government – therefore one has to wonder how many of these leaks were fed to the press – and especially how many of Grech’s leaks were likewise fabricated, but run by the press as factual information.

  95. CU, I love the caption accompanying the pic of Barnaby on that site:
    I’M NORMAL
    I NEVER GET CARRIED AWAY
    MY MOUTH WORKS FOR IT’S SELF
    YOU COULD SAY IT’S SELF EMPLOYED

  96. Sue

    I see good in both sides of politics and I have opinions that are separate from one single party line where there is always the dislike of anyone on the other side.

    Many here and at other sites have a bias lean towards one side of politcis. I respect their decision but I am not one of them.

    Malcolm Turnbull is a much better politician than Tony Abbott, yes he has his faults. I think he was sucked into the email conspiracy and I think it has taught him to be a bit more careful. Just as I think the current government has learnt many lessons, having to rely on another party and the independents to continue to govern. The same as I think the greens learnt the value of compromise when they refused to compromise with Kevin Rudd.

    There were many many comments via twitter stating that they would support the liberals more if Turnbull was leader and I completely agree with them.

  97. Barnaby Joyce on the other hand needs to keep calm before speaking, as he turns red with anger and blusters, as though loud verbalisation will achieve something.

  98. Shane, yes Turnbull was ‘sucked in’ by the Grech affair however he was a willing participant having been feed a number of such leaks in the past. That is, if Turnbull hadn’t already been readily accepting leaks from Grech then he would never have been caught out via a false one.

    But having said that, Turnbull is a vast improvement on Tony Abbott whose ethics and modus operandi I dislike, and intensely dislike. Abbott takes everything to the lowest possible denominator.

    Turnbull being the business person that he is would be ready to promote talent and be impatient to offload the front bench of non-performers. Abbott will be the same as his mentor Howard, and never promote for fear of anyone with talent undermining his own personal position.

  99. Min

    He may have been a willing participant at the time (and also possibly a tad excited at maybe having some mud to fling) but I do not think he will do the same again. He is not a weathervein politician and has stuck to his convictions despite the extreme right gaining the upper hand (at the moment) of the liberal party.

  100. Did The Australian not realise how funny this headline is ?

    Tony Abbott denies he is too negative as opposition leader

    by: Lanai Vasek From: The Australian November 09, 2011

  101. “despite the extreme right gaining the upper hand (at the moment) of the liberal party.”

    I must admit these labels do get a little annoying.

    Sounds like there are a bunch of people in the Liberal party you do not agree with. You then try to demonise them by calling them extremists.

    From what I have read Turnbull would split the Liberal party. I actually think he makes a lot of sense. I cannot work out why some Liberals do not trust him. When he speaks on economic matters I tend to agree with him.

    On Bolts blog a number of people say he should leave the Libs and join Labor where he supposedly belongs.

  102. “I must admit these labels do get a little annoying.Sounds like there are a bunch of people in the Liberal party you do not agree with. You then try to demonise them by calling them extremists.”

    Neil, please have a look at your comments over any period and see how many times you demonise and label those you do not agree with, either politicians, a whole party, or individual commenters.

    For you to claim the moral high ground on labels and demonising is astounding.

  103. Neil, but it is the extreme right of the Liberal party which has the upper hand – moderates such as Turnbull have been pushed to one side.

    ps..it would be useful if you might refer to either the person or the time of the comment. As we can end up with hundreds of comments on threads it becomes difficult to locate the exact comment that you are refering to.

  104. O.K. Shane you said this “He is not a weathervein politician and has stuck to his convictions despite the extreme right gaining the upper hand (at the moment) of the liberal party.”

    What do you mean by extreme right??

  105. Just as well Tony has swimming togs :grin:

    Super backflip breaks dam for Abbott by: Paul Kelly, Editor-At-Large From: The Australian November 09, 2011 12:00AM

    THE Tony Abbott-led Coalition’s buckling before Labor’s increase in the superannuation guarantee from 9 per cent to 12 per cent is a great victory for the Gillard government and signals the Coalition’s admission that its political strategy is off the rails and needs correction.

    .Log In

  106. Rising star

    http://www.theweeklyreview.com.au/article-display/Rising-star/4331

    Leila Gurruwiwi had to overcome a lot to get to where she is, including extreme shyness as a teenager, six months in hospital with pneumonia aged 12 and someone she knows in her home town of Bendigo “telling me really bad things about myself and me starting to believe those sort of things”.

    Well, as she enjoys her burgeoning media career, it’s triumph over roadblocks. We’ve met at the ABC, and Gurruwiwi has come along armed with stories and perspectives to help us get to know her.

  107. I believe that Utegate was very damaging for Turnbull but I agree with the consensus here that he has learned from that mistake. While I was very critical of him at the time, I think he has adopted better ethics. Lesson learnt.

  108. serco contract
    9 Nov 2011

    http://newmatilda.com/2011/11/09/exclusive-our-contract-serco

    EXCLUSIVE: Our Contract With Serco
    By Antony Loewenstein, Marni Cordell and Paul Farrell

    Today NM publishes the contract signed between the Department of Immigration and Serco, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act

    New Matilda’s analysis of the document reveals that:

    General security guards can begin work with no formal security qualifications and are only required to obtain a Certificate II within six months of working with Serco.

    Clinical depression, childbirth and voluntary starvation for under 24 hours are considered “minor” incidents while unauthorised media access is considered “critical”.

    Of these “minor” incidents, only 10 per cent are required to be audited internally by Serco.

    There is no contractual requirement of an independent audit of Serco’s management of detention centres.

    How much is the government paying for this kind of “care” for asylum seekers?

  109. Neil

    There is the left and the middle and the right in the ALP.

    There is the moderates, the right and the extreme right in the Liberals.

    Turnbull is a moderate. Abbott is an Extreme Right. Joe Hockey I would place between Moderate and Right. Peter Reith is extreme right.

  110. Roswell and Shane, my problem with Turnbull is that his ethics only improved once he was caught. Prior to being caught and according to Abetz, Grech leaks were the norm for Turnbull.

    Turnbull is also strongly pro WorkChoices.

    “I think there should be the maximum freedom and flexibility in the workplace,” he said. “I don’t think we should be frightened by the Work Choices bogey.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations/ir-has-law-gone-too-far-with-work-choices-says-turnbull/story-fn59noo3-1226188209225

  111. Min
    Pip..you mean that you’ve recently decided to ignore Neil

    Not so recently, just repeating all over again like Neil does :grin:

  112. Pip

    I enjoy debating anyone including Neil provided it does not become personal or too repetitive.

    Neil makes me stop and think about policy and issues and while we do disagree on many things, I have publicly agreed with him on a few here at CW as well.

  113. Neil’s a fun guy. He is extremely repetitive but now and again delivers some points worth musing over.

  114. Min

    There is not a politician alive that I think is 100% totally honest and has never done anything wrong and that I fully agree with everything they have to say. So many get caught out one way or another, it is just the depth of catch that varies.

    I don’t agree with everything Malcolm Turnbull stands for either but I agree with Malcolm far more than I agree with Tony. I also prefer a better standard of speech and debate than the verbal yelling and hysteria that Tony Abbott has brought to politics as the leader of the opposition.

    I am happy to agree with and stand up for any politician when I believe they are right on an issue. Sadly I have no issue to agree with or stand up for that is Tony Abbotts.

  115. That’s a bit harsh, Shane. I think there are lots of honest pollies and yes, there are dishonest ones too. Just as there are dishonest people in the community at large. I think the nature of politics in a democracy with its need to woo the electorate from term to term, as well as the rewards of office, does make the the political scene more susceptible to corruption.

    The worst thing that Tony Abbott has done as Opposition leader is to continually undermine our trust in all members of our national parliament and even to question the honesty of our public servants. Every time we repeat that line of his about not trusting politicians we help him to destroy our democracy further and make his ascent to power on its ruins more likely.

    I am so grateful today for the honesty and steadfastness of people like Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott. As well I am full of admiration for our Prime Minister and her party in persisting with the essential truth of their commitment to carbon pricing as outlined by the Prime Minister in July, 2010, in a policy statement before the election. Needing to modify that policy too meet the dramatically different and unexpected circumstances of a hung parliament is not dishonest or corrupt.

    The lie, as Pip, has said before here, is the lie which Tony Abbott and the Opposition keep repeating, helped by the media day in and day out is that Julia lied.

    Our PM is a brave and honest woman. As are many politicians in Canberra and many state parliaments too. A member of my family is one of them.

  116. To me where Turnbull came adrift is that he thought that he was ‘born to rule’, thought that he could play the system and was caught. A humbling experience which I hope has been character building for him.

    But Shane agreed, and I’ve said this on a number of occasions..Turnbull is a huge improvement on Abbott who I believe would be a disaster for Australia.

  117. Save the reef

    http://www.getup.org.au/campaigns/coal-seam-gas/great-barrier-reef/save-the-reef

    Millions of cubic metres of sea floor is being removed from the Great Barrier Reef World Heritage Area right now.
    It’s the largest dredging project ever undertaken in Australia, making way for massive new coal seam gas export facilities.

    This massive industrial activity is damaging the Great Barrier Reef and threatens its status as a World Heritage Site. Sign the emergency petition now!

  118. Follow the media inquiry on Twitter with #mediainquiry

    MargaretSimons MargaretSimons

    Pearce: blending of fact and opinion happens too often, line blurred, what is presented as fact is attempt to attack gov.
    #mediainquiry

  119. Patricia

    You need to read the whole sentence.

    Is 100% honest and has never done anything wrong and I fully agree with. They need to meet all 3

    I have posted here before the number of politicians that are in federal parliament from both sides that have had to repay wrongly claimed travel expenses. You would be sacked if you were an employee and wrongly claimed travel expenses.

    The only politician I can mention who met those three criteria for me personally was Peter Andren (RIP).

  120. Shane, Peter Andren immediately came to mind and I’m confident that there are many others we don’t notice underneath all the noise.

  121. Thank you Pip (Min gets on high horse) Hmmfff Shane about not knowing another honest politician. During my 4 years I think that the only thing that I ended up with was a 3-drawer filing cabinet and a brief case. I was told that nobody wanted the brief case and they forgot to come and pick up the filing cabinet..so I kept it. There you go..my secret it out!

  122. Agreed, Shane, I went for you like a bull at a gate there! I am very defensive on the issue of honesty of pollies.

    But it sickens me when people are allowed to stand up on progams like Q&A and make broad unchallenged statements about dishonest politicians, eg our PM. As well, I grapple with concerns about the honesty of pollies which go far beyond expense accounts.

    For me the SHY performance using those scripted questions from the Ombudsman was the ultimate betrayal of her profession (and his too!) as was their defence by Bob Brown. Essentially all three of them are still insisting that they did it for a good cause, practising deceit so they could help asylum seekers.

    How do we defend the best of our politicians and maintain the integrity of our parliamentary processes if even the Greens can’t see the inconsistency or dishonesty in that sort of behaviour?

  123. No Sue, the brief case was empty when I received it. Likewise the 3 drawer filing cabinet, but I managed to fill it with Baileys.

  124. Min

    “I used to be an honest politician”

    The word used is the main point of that comment :)

    Patricia

    I agree I also grapple with politcians honesty in many areas. Being honest in one area and dishonest in another, still means that overall you are dishonest. There are no degrees of honesty. This is why I cannot name a politcian currently serving ( thereby excluding Min from the debate) that meets all of my criteria.

  125. Sue,
    From my observation of Heffernan he always talks this way, but on the other hand he could be drunk.

  126. Patricia

    Defence of the honesty and integrity of our politcial system disappeared once it became a career, based on large salaries and perks. It used to be considered a service to the people, with minimal payment for this service as it was considered predominantly volunatary it is now a junket and allowances and retirement benefits trough with the pathetic excuse that we need to pay massive amounts while elected and in retirement to get the best people.

  127. Oh and this comes on the back of a report showing that NSW hospitals backlogs and ambulance blocks have gotten significantly worse since O’Farrell took power.

    Skinner the current Health Minister and constant bagger of the health system under the previous Labor government says she had poured millions into health and the failures are all Labor’s fault.

    Yeah, pull the other one. Somehow pouring millions extra into hospitals and magically creating all these hundreds of new beds she’s bragging about has caused backlogs and blocks to become significantly worse.

    Odd, because when she was in opposition she said there were no excuses for government failures and the buck always stopped with the government of the day.

  128. ME
    “says she had poured millions into health and the failures are all Labor’s fault.”

    There has been a lot of talk about NSW Govt and its supposed health spending in the by election campaign . The locals are discussing it and know the real story. North coast voices has been running a good commentary.

  129. Yeah the Liberal State government are just so much better than the bad Labor State governments they replaced…… NOT.”

    Well I read the link and it was an improvement according to Crikey. Not much better but still an improvement

    “New premier Ted Baillieu vowed to improve accountability and has only “dumped” half the amount of reports together. Some have been picked up in media reports.”

    So 50% of the annual reports were dumped at the same time rather than 100% under Brumby. Crikeys conclusion was more accountability but same tactics from Ted.

  130. Typical behaviour from Skinner indeed. When in opposition blame the government. When in government find excuses.

  131. Neil

    I agree it seems there is an improvement regarding dumping reports together by the Baillieu government, but what I find alarming is the closed door secret strategies to provoke nurses into industrial action to then lock them out and replace many of them with lesser qualified nurses assistants in the name of money. Disgraceful.

  132. ‘As TomR pointed out one time..try going and living on Venus’

    Hmmm….I miss the dear boy and his robust defence of the indefencible.

    CU we’ll agree to disagree and just a reminder the Denialati will battle on to ultimate victory.

  133. Roswell
    I see they have made the replacements in the chain at News Ltd, however i had read in the UK press that the big boss was looking for a place for his fave female ex exec.

  134. El gordo, fear not TomR hasn’t gone..he’s just resting ;)

    Sadly for the Denialati they are beginning to look more and more like froot-loops.

  135. The workers united will never be defeated, even in the USA

    “A year after Republicans swept legislatures across the country, voters in Ohio delivered their verdict Tuesday on a centerpiece of the conservative legislative agenda, striking down a law that restricted public workers’ rights to bargain collectively.

    The landslide vote to repeal the bill — 62 percent to 38 percent, according to preliminary results from Ohio’s secretary of state — was a slap to Gov. John R. Kasich, a Republican who had championed the law as a tool for cities to cut costs

    Labor leaders said their victory contained an important message for Republicans.

    “Attacking education and other public employees is not at all what the public wants to see,” said Karen M. White, political director of the National Education Association, the nation’s largest public sector union. “It should resonate with politicians that they’ve gone too far.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/us/politics/ohio-turns-back-a-law-limiting-unions-rights.html?_r=1&hp

  136. Sue re – a law that restricted public workers’ rights to bargain collectively – championed as a tool to cut costs.

    Sounds strangely familiar….

  137. I agree with Murdoch, “Few people have contributed as much as John to the quality of journalism in Australia”. lol

  138. Sue

    It is good to see a positive result for the public workers for a change and this needs to be shown here like what they are trying to do behind closed doors in Victoria regarding nurses.

    People need to be made aware that public servants are not just those in ivory towers, they are our police our fieries and our ambos and our nurses and to take all their rights away from them is just plain unfair and wrong.

  139. Min
    And what muggins all those protesters who joined Twiggy and pearls Gina for the rallies in Perth against the mining tax. How many of those protesters would fill in their tax returns each year as they are of the PAYG citizen.

    Or better still an aged pensioner, who had paid their taxes all their working lives and now rely on the Age Pension and other entitlements.

    But first they would have to read this news.

  140. shaneinqld

    In Vic, the workers in the Parks portfolio have been offered, as a take it or leave it deal, 2.5% which is less than CPI.

  141. Shaneinqld

    don’t worry about the police in Vic they got a very good deal, but then there was the OPI report. That is what has so incensed the other parties the unfairness of the dealings of the Bailleau govt.

  142. Sue

    Yes the bias is startling. But while the police got a good deal in Vic I believe police should be paid more for the high risks and violence involved with their employment.

  143. Shane, apart from the fact that minus public servants all government services would grind to a halt. When I was an elected representative I had the utmost respect for the ‘professionals’ who had to deal with we ‘amateurs’. The CEO and of course the one that I mainly went to was one Warwick Heine, over 6 foot tall and just about as wide at the girth. The patience of a saint that man when having to deal with we politicians.

  144. Min @ 5.56pm,

    But Mr Tapp said the company had paid millions in state iron ore royalties.

    “We’re also paying circa $450m to $500m a year on current production levels in West Australian state royalties, so I do not agree that Fortescue does not contribute its fair share,” Mr Tapp said.

    Everyone has to pay for their purchases, but they can’t wait until it suits themselves to pay the tax on earings.

    My impression of ‘Twiggy’ is that he uses his ‘good fella’ persona for his own advantage…at every turn.

  145. Now I am absolutely nothing resembling an economist, in fact if it’s numbers I have to use toes as well as fingers..but this seems to state that Twiggy pays nothing except Western Australian royalties.

    I do realize that Western Australia and Queensland have previously mooted removing themselves from the Commonwealth of Australia..but don’t you think that just maybe people such as Twiggy should be paying Federal taxes and not just WA royalties.

  146. Great report on WIN South Coast NSW local news on the BER.

    They showed a $2.1 million spend for an outdoor training centre that set up organic vegetable plots, sustainable gardens and large outdoor kitchen classrooms where the primary school students learnt to process and cook their organic vegetables. They also learnt home skills and other practical things.

    This program was hailed a great success and was built on a site that had a run down classroom and dilapidated removable classrooms thanks to more than a decade of Howard’s neglect.

    Also I heard the story of suburbs neighbouring on those who have the NBN are now clamouring for it and demanding they get it. All in Liberal Federal and State seats by the way, so how are they going to feel when Abbott rips it up or denies an NBN to them?

  147. Min,

    we don’t have to work it out.

    Government Senate leader Chris Evans says the company has a market capitalisation of $20 billion.

    “They have never paid a dollar in company tax to date and they want to resist having to pay the Mining Resource Rent Tax,” Senator Evans said.

    “A large mining company owned by Australia’s richest man won’t pay tax … that is not something the Australian people should accept.”

  148. YAC denied access to Fortescue meeting

    http://www.tradingroom.com.au/apps/view_breaking_news_article.ac?page=/data/news_research/published/2011/11/313/catf_111109_144800_1082.html

    November 09 2011, 2:48PM

    YAC has rejected Fortescue’s offer of cash payments and vocational opportunities in exchange for access to land at the Solomon project, although a rival indigenous group has accepted the offer.

    Fortescue has offered $4 million a year in cash and $6.5 million a year in housing, jobs, training and business opportunities, but YAC would prefer a royalty.

    Fortescue founder and chairman Andrew Forrest has previously rejected the call for a royalty, telling the meeting on Wednesday that this was “a short-term mentality of welfare which leads to dependence”.

    Mr. Forrest’s comment about ‘dependence’ is old-fashioned paternalism, and his offer would no doubt benefit him, as royalties would be worth more than what he’s offering.

  149. Paternalist exactly describes Twiggy Forrest who runs around telling everyone he loves our Aboriginal people ‘cos he was raised with them by his land ‘owning’ family. He sickens me with his posturing and self promotion about all that he does for Aboriginal employment as he goes to their meetings and proclaims to them his brotherly ‘love’ for them and then refuses to pay them fair royalties or have respect for their sacred sites. They know what is sacred to them. He doesn’t, nor does he care about them. He only cares for his profits for himself and his shareholders.

  150. I’m about to enjoy one of life’s little pleasures: Lay in bed listening to the rain on the roof.

    Betcha it keeps me awake. :(

  151. Tony Abbott’s ‘Dr No’ persona is wearing thin with voters

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/carbon-plan/tony-abbotts-dr-no-persona-is-wearing-thin-with-voters/story-fn99tjf2-1226190659505

    TONY Abbott has tried to put a positive spin on his rejection of the carbon tax as he seeks to shrug off his recent labelling as the “Dr No” of Australian politics and explain how he will unwind the newly legislated carbon tax.

    As the Opposition Leader yesterday addressed criticism of his political strategy, a row broke out over the opposition’s ability to fund its election promises, after Nationals leader Warren Truss said some of the $50 billion in savings identified by the Coalition at the last election were no longer available. Although Mr Truss said the Coalition had “a proven record” of making budget cuts, Finance Minister Penny Wong seized on his comments to claim the opposition savings from the last election were unreliable.

    I was under the impression that the budget costings assumptions by Hockey and Robb from the last election,and also the last Budget were unreliable.

  152. Catching up was asking on another post,
    Why is Reith back after all these years.?

    This might help….key words…industrial relations reform….

    Is Abbott on flight of fantasy?

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/is-abbott-on-flight-of-fantasy/2343748.aspx?storypage=0

    Market-oriented Liberals, such as Peter Reith and Peter Costello, are amazed at how Abbott is positioning himself on industrial relations.

    If I were the chief executive of a major Australian airline, contemplating going thermonuclear in an industrial relations matter, one of the people I might ask for advice would be the former (Liberal) minister for industrial relations, Peter Reith. He learnt a thing or two – some as yet unrevealed – in helping to plot the reform of the Australian waterfront. Up to and including dummy labour trained abroad, masked men, and Alsatian dogs.

    There are others to whom I might look for advice, including former executives of Rio Tinto, veterans of old industrial wars in the mining industry. But some of these, such as Qantas chairman Leigh Clifford, were actually at hand, and, presumably, already central to the strategy, and the tactic, in contemplation.

    and
    After the 2007 election, Coalition leaders generally said they had received the message about radical IR reform. But Abbott, according to some Coalition critics, led by Reith, has long been more spooked than most, utterly unwilling to edge back to the base Coalition position of a liberal and liberated industrial relations marketplace. Instead of playing the radical – even with overwhelming opinion poll support – he is seen as scared, paralysed, and utterly wedded to his 2010 claim that the Howard-era reforms are ”dead, buried and cremated”.

    Remember, Tony Abbott reportedly dudded Peter Reith when he promised Reith that he would vote for him in the Liberal Presidency ballot, and instead voted for the incumbent !

  153. Opposition not set to govern

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/opposition-not-set-to-govern/story-e6frgd0x-1226187062256

    Before you read on I have to highlight this amazing statement from ltd news…

    An emissions trading scheme is the most cost-efficient and effective way to tackle climate change

    Huh ? Has there been a turnover of staff at ltd news or are they just waking up to reality?

    Abbott is facing a set of challenges including internal party tensions, policy credibility and low popularity.

    The internal tensions are at several levels. Old stagers such as Peter Costello and Peter Reith frequently criticise Abbott. Costello likened his philosophy to the Democratic Labor Party. He also suggested Abbott “avoid the trap of ruling things in or out so far away from the next election.”

    Costello and Reith have criticised Abbott’s approach to industrial relations, which is being echoed from the backbench. When Abbott said that Liberals “don’t support statutory individual contracts” any more, Liberal blue-bloods had apoplexy. Reith attacked Abbott over his call for government intervention in the Qantas dispute.

    Reith’s former adviser, Ian Hanke, said Abbott’s approach to industrial relations “has overturned long-held Liberal beliefs”. Ambitious backbencher Jamie Briggs argues, “you can’t have genuine flexibility without a form of statutory individual contract”. Another backbencher, Kelly O’Dwyer, called for a debate on the Coalition’s IR policy.

  154. Back to industrial relations campaign.

    Industrial relations laws ‘unbalanced’

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/industrial-relations-laws-unbalanced/story-fn59niix-1226187148850

    BUSINESS has lashed the Labor government’s industrial relations laws as stripping balance from the system and hindering productivity.
    Writing in The Australian today, Business Council of Australia head Graham Bradley says the Qantas dispute and industrial action in the mining, construction, healthcare and waterfront sectors are exposing flaws in the Fair Work regime.

    He warns that the legislation is removing the capacity of companies to make decisions with their workers about how they will run their businesses and remain competitive.

  155. NBN forces Liberals to juggle convictions and constituents

    http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/nbn-forces-liberals-to-juggle-convictions-and-constituents-20111109-1n6bu.html


    Liberal politicians’ closet support for the NBN is at odds with party policy.

    Tony Abbott this week wasted no time again fingering the National Broadband Network as an easy target for elimination to push the budget back towards surplus.

    With several Liberal ministers recently pushing for a faster NBN rollout, however, Abbott’s reflexive dismissal of the project may be driving a wedge between the Coalition’s anti-NBN platform and many Liberal politicians’ desire for their constituents to realise the network’s benefits.

    It’s beginning to look as if Tony Abbott now can’t do anything right !

  156. Funny thing is that Mr. Abbott has not changed one iota.

    To me most of the new found opposition to Mr. Abbott seems to arise from his own party.

    Those who choose to support Mr. Abbott appear to becoming more shrill and over the top. The exaggerations are becoming unbelievable.

    As it was put to Mr. Hunt, yesterday morning on ABC24, he would need the economy to collapse to prove their point. Is this what he wants to occur.

    This has to be true, as Mr. Abbott has been transversing the country on a daily basis that the world as we know it is coming to and end. He is saying that this government is toxic and everything they touch leads to evil.

    Mr. Abbott is not

    Every day the people he is preaching to with his dire warning and predictions see more evidence of what they are achieving. They see the PM on the world stage being warmly greeted.

    Mr. Abbott’s picture of politics in this country does not gel.

    Big business are telling Mr. Abbott, that enough is enough. It is time to stop talking the economy down. It is starting to work.

    I believe business likes much of what the PM is doing.

    The noise from the like to twiggy is blocking out some of the concerns that other business is saying.

    As for twiggy, he was supposed to turn up at that enquiry yesterday.

    One commentator say, maybe he seen what Mr. Joyce endured and changed his mind. Maybe he got the message that the evidence he produce did not pass scrutiny.

    Twiggy had better things to do, in releasing record profits for his company. He must be proud that he has avoided paying taxes for donkey’s years.

  157. Also on Twiggy: This is the real Twiggy, it’s all about the money to him…

    NATIONAL: Mining magnate Andrew Forrest’s comment that young Aboriginal girls in the Pilbara are offering men sex for cigarettes has prompted a complaint to Australia’s human rights watchdog.

    Five women from the town of Roebourne have lodged the complaint with the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (HREOC), saying the comment is racist and vilifies their community.

    The Fortescue Metals Group (FMG) chairman said on an ABC Four Corners documentary in July that little girls approached men in Roebourne late at night and offered sexual services in exchange for the cost of a cigarette.

    The comment came in the midst of a dispute with the Yindjibarndi Aboriginal Corporation (YAC) over Fortescue’s rights to mine iron ore on their traditional lands.

    FMG has so far failed to cut a deal with the YAC since beginning talks in 2007 to develop its Solomon Hub project, about 200 kilometres south of Roebourne.

    The company estimates that over the next 40 years it could extract 2.4 billion tonnes of ore worth $280 billion, based on current prices.

    FMG has offered the landowners a $500,000 signing fee and a capped amount of $4 million a year in cash, plus up to $6.5 million a year in staff housing, jobs, training and business opportunities.

    But YAC head Michael Woodley says if the community accepts the deal they will be “selling their soul to the devil”.

    He has pointed to a better deal struck by Rio Tinto with traditional owners that included an uncapped royalty of 0.5 per cent that would equate to $2 billion over 40 years.

    But on the Four Corners program Mr Forrest said offering more cash would be akin to “mining welfare”.

    http://tracker.org.au/2011/08/2013/

  158. “And some good news or another reason why Abbott fled.”

    Can’t understand this kerfuffle about Abbott not being here when the Senate passes legislation.

    There is a rumour going around (and its only a rumour) that Labor brought forward the carbon tax legislation because they knew he was going overseas when the legislation was being passed.

    But Abbott does not sit in the Senate. What is the point hanging around when there is nothing he can do. I bet you plenty of ALP MP’s do not hang around Canberra when the House of Reps is not sitting

  159. Neil,
    I personally don’t give a flying fluck where Abbott is and what he was doing, as long as I don’t have to listen to him drone on endlessly that’s fine by me.

  160. Well Anthony G this blog is not the place for you. Abbott seems to be one of the main topics.

    Would be interesting to know how many Labor HOR leaders stay in Canberra when the Senate is sitting.

  161. “Would be interesting to know how many Labor HOR leaders stay in Canberra when the Senate is sitting.”

    Not many I know of have staked their political lives on a single policy, and promised a blood oath on it.

    Just seems incongruous that someone who is so vehemently opposed to something runs when the actual bill is passed.

    It’s almost like the losing team in a Grand Final walking of the field before hte presentations. It’s what we colloquially call ‘A Dummy Spit’ :)

  162. Abbott cut and run because those nasty Labor people brought the vote forward ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    More likely he heard leadership speculation (no not Rudd) and took off with his tail between his legs to ask Howard if he could use his influence.

  163. Tom and we also have Abbott’s vow that ‘when’ PM that he will quit if he can’t wind back the carbon tax. Guess what..he can’t. Therefore he may as well quit now. ;)

  164. Have we had this one? I like the headline so am popping it in anyway..

    Mirabella helps pass carbon tax

    Although it’s a little easier for the government to get the carbon tax bill through the lower house after Liberal MP Sophie Mirabella was kicked out of the house for 24 hours yesterday. She defied deputy speaker — and Liberal colleague — Peter Slipper and the house voted to suspend her until 10.30pm tonight. This means Mirabella will be unable to vote on the carbon tax bills put forth today.

    http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/10/12/mirabella-helps-pass-carbon-tax/

  165. Nope. Abbott not being in Canberra when the Senate is sitting is O.K. by me. Most probably saves some taxpayers money on accommodation.

    Abbott cut and run because those nasty Labor people brought the vote forward ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.”

    No. The rumour is that the ALP brought the vote forward because they knew he would be in the U.K.

    Seems like you people are trying to create trouble over nothing.

    I find it amazing things you people pick up that would not even cross my mind. If Beazley or Rudd was not in canberra when the GST was passed, so what?? Rudd said the introduction of the GST was a day of fundamental injustice. Was he in Canberra when the GST went through the Senate.

  166. “Iron ore miner and shipper Fortescue Metals Group was formed in 2003 in response to the inadequacy of the Pilbara region’s infrastructure in dealing with strong east Asian growth. Under the leadership of CEO and majority shareholder Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forrest, the company raised $3.7 billion in capital over 2006-2007 and began shipping in 2008.”

    And as we hear from yesterday FMG will finally pay $100 million in company tax Dec2011 and possibly next year $800million So for Twiggy and FMG flinging a few million in an advertisement campaign against the Mining tax has sure been a good deal and cheaper than paying company tax, the States have it right. cough up the royalties as they ship it..

    During this same period Forrest has become

    “Iron ore magnate Andrew Forrest has more than doubled his wealth to reclaim the title of the nation’s richest person from gaming tycoon James Packer, according to the latest Australia Rich list published by Forbes Asia.

    Mr Forrest’s net worth soared by $US2.45 billion ($A2.71 billion), or 149 per cent, to $US4.1 billion ($A4.53 billion) in conjunction with the stock of Mr Forrest’s Fortescue Metals Group, which was boosted by rising commodity prices and China’s strong demand for minerals.”

    http://www.fatcat.com.au/news/home/Millionaire+Mindset/323_0.html

  167. Nil

    “Seems like you people are trying to create trouble over nothing.”

    Where sensible people claim Whyalla will be wiped off the map.

    keeps the jokes running,good to start the day with a laugh

  168. Listening to Neil go on about Abbott reminded me of the Dead Parrot skit in Monty Python (Abbott being the dead parrot, Neil as the shop keeper). Neil he is a dead parrot get over it.

  169. No. The problem is with you people. If Abbott had stayed in Canberra during the Senate vote would you people had said nothing?? No.

    You would have found something else just as stupid to bring up. Can’t think of what. Perhaps he would have been staying in a hotel that was too expensive. You lot would have thought of something stupid.

    You people are the masters of diversion. I actually don’t think you believe in anything. You just sit back and try and make trouble.

  170. Neil

    “Well Anthony G this blog is not the place for you. Abbott seems to be one of the main topics.”

    Just like your main topics are debt and deficit.

    “No. The rumour is that the ALP brought the vote forward because they knew he would be in the U.K.”

    Keep saying it and you will believe it to be true.

    Conversely this morning the ABC claims that the Labor Minister not present at the same vote is terrible because everyone knew a week before it happened as to when the legislation was going to be voted on.

    So whose rumour is right ?

    All I care about is that it has passed. The rest is irrelevant.

    I believe Tony Abbott went overseas to visit his mentor John Howard to seek advice on the next strategy as the demonising of the government and the greens and the independents seems to be losing traction and could end up a negative in 2 years time when there is an actual election. Especially given the fact that Tony was only elected by 1 vote when another MP was absent at the time.

    As for his comments about a paralysed government, the government seems to be getting a lot of things done, otherwise what on earth is he screaming about and being negative about all the time.

  171. “You people are the masters of diversion. I actually don’t think you believe in anything. You just sit back and try and make trouble.”

    We have learnt well from the master Neil.

  172. Clearly if one indulges in over the top rhetoric such as Tony Abbott has done on the issue of the carbon tax then it is a reasonable reaction that he be picked up when he does things such as leave town. IF the issue had been so important for him, then he would have been there.

  173. Oh dear Nil even Barry Cassidy is turning against Abbott

    “It started with his refusal to throw the Government a lifeline on asylum seekers, even though both major parties want legally protected offshore processing. Then came Abbott’s siding with Qantas and Alan Joyce on the grounding of the airline. (And of course, that shone a light on the Coalition’s lack of resolve on industrial relations generally.) Next was Abbott’s extraordinary dismissal of Australian support for the IMF and its reserves; then the reversal of his opposition to an increase in superannuation; and now, given sharper focus this week, his unwillingness to further tax mining companies at a time of unprecedented wealth.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-10/cassidy-new-poll-marks-a-slow-changing-of-the-tide/3655146

  174. From Barry’s article on Abbott and the media. the assumption being the rest will follow or open their eyes.

    “Tellingly, the advice in the media to rethink some of these strategies is not coming from people that Coalition supporters can easily dismiss as raving lefties. Let’s go through them, keeping in mind all of them wrote their hard hitting analysis before Tuesday’s opinion poll was published. They were neither emboldened nor influenced by that significant shift in sentiment.”

  175. A message to Rupert, why would you pay for online opinions, when Abbott has not changed only the media is starting to write and see through the bullshit.

  176. Sue

    “Tellingly, the advice in the media to rethink some of these strategies is not coming from people that Coalition supporters can easily dismiss as raving lefties.”

    That is so true because I am one of those that they cannot dismiss as a raving lefty (although I think Neil would disagree), because I have voted more times for the coalition in my life than the ALP or Independents.

  177. Shane

    As I said it is only a rumour with no evidence. But the rumour is that Labor knew Abbott would not be in Canberra because he was going to the UK. Trips are usually booked weeks in advance. Carbon tax vote could take place up to the week beginning Nov 21.

    Conversely this morning the ABC claims that the Labor Minister not present at the same vote is terrible because everyone knew a week before it happened as to when the legislation was going to be voted on.

    Is this Labor minister a Senator?? If so he should have been present to vote. If he is a member of the HOR what is the problem??? If he was a Senator and did not vote, of course he is terrible.

    Still say this Abbott kerfuffle is something people of “the left” invent to make trouble.

    Same goes for refugees. If Howard was in power with 6,000 locked up and suicides happening on a regular basis there would be riots in the streets. Inhumane would be the claim. All the refugee activists are now strangely silent because Howard is not in power and this time they do not want to create trouble.

  178. Neil, we went through this with you a couple of days ago. You persist with misinformation.

    First of all, no one is saying Mr. Abbott should have been in Canberra.

    Being where one can make contact with him would have been be nice.

    The decision was made on the Monday week before. This meant that Mr. Abbott could have remained in Australia for the final vote.

    Mr. Abbott choose to fly out a day early. This meant he was in the air, where no contact could be made.

    I noticed that the media has not made contact or interviewed him once he arrived in Britain. Maybe no one is interested what Tony says anymore.

    The allegations that he ran like a coward must be biting.

    Neil, most have moved on from that argument. There are other things that hold the attention of most.

  179. Neil

    The Minister was absent due to pairing but was being accused of not attending because he did not believe in the Carbon Tax because they all knew a week before so he didn’t change anything. Was totally denied but once again a media rumour just like your rumour. Totally baseless.

    “the left” are no worse at inventing rumour and allegations than “the right”. Your continual reporting of rumour proves this.

    People like myself have to sift through the crap from both sides to make an educated decision. When the media takes sides instead of reporting facts, it makes our efforts to arrive at an educated decision all the more harder and also belittles the quality of journalism and the education of our citizens.

  180. Neil, and here is but one consequence of John Howard’s asylum seeker policy:

    Asylum seeker compo bill $23m

    FOI documents released by the Finance Department show a total of 293 unlawful detention claims and 111 negligence claims have been made by asylum seekers since 2000, when the mandatory detention network first hit crisis under the Howard government.

    Most claims were lodged before 2007, with the biggest payout years 2006 ($7.6 million) and 2007 ($4.9 million). All claims relate to asylum seekers detained before 2007.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/asylum-seeker-compo-bill-23m-20111109-1n7fd.html#ixzz1dFjGeb2G

  181. INCONVENIENT FACTS

    It was known that Mr. Abbott was due to be in Britain on the Thursday.

    This, according to you, the day the bill was to be voted on.

    Last Monday week, it was decided that the vote would take place on the Tuesday.

    Mr. Abbott made the decision to fly out on Monday. This was 24 hours before he needed to.

    Mr. Abbott was given the opportunity to be in Australia for the vote.

    Mr. Abbott , choose to be in the air.

    Your theory does not hold water.

  182. Yes, Min, we no longer lock up and deport Australian citizens.

    We no longer deport Australian mothers, leaving their child in care.

  183. The bigger question is why was JOHN Hartigan sacked.

    Why has Ltd. changed tack with how it reports Mr. Abbott and the PM.

    Why has Mr. Murdoch taken the reins back after 30 years.

    Many much more interesting question than manufactured rumours that Labor set up Mr. Abbott. Maybe they did, and he was caught in it.

  184. Mr. Abbott was given the opportunity to be in Australia for the vote.”

    And where were Beazley and Rudd when the Senate voted on the GST??? Abbott not being here is a none issue. You are just trying to create trouble.

    MIn- any idea of the cost of housing 6,000 people??? Villawood being burnt to the ground?? Even the recent court case?? Also there is more self-harm happening than when Howard was in power.

    However, lawyers have warned that the next wave of compensation claims from asylum seekers detained by the Labor government is about to hit the courts.”

    Howard was faced with a problem. By trial and error he solved it. We had 6 people locked up in 2007.

  185. And where were Beazley and Rudd when the Senate voted on the GST???
    You people are the masters of diversion.
    :shock:

  186. Neil, you are very angry today. It is not good for you He was not good for your health.

    I have no idea where Mr. Beasley was but I am sure he was available to be interviewed. I seemed to recall that he also said he would rescind the GST.

    Thankfully, it was soon learnt that this course of action was unrealistic.

    As for Rudd, where he was is of no consequence. He was not in the picture at that time.

    Why waste so much time creating diversions. Today’s events are so much more interesting.

    You have served up all your pet diversions so early today. Surely you can come up with some new ones.

    Neil, the question I would like to ask you, how many ministers lost jobs in Mr. Howard’s first year as PM.

    What was Mr. Reith’s crime.

    Why was Mr. Howard called honest John.

  187. Actually Shane I do not know. I was actually asking the question myself.

    Would this lot have cared if Rudd was not in Canberra when the Senate voted on the GST??? They would not have cared at all.

  188. Neil

    I do not know either.

    Your question was posed as an insinuation and that is why I requested an answer from you.

    I think this lot actually would have cared if either of them was not in Canberra, for the simple reason most of the population were actually against the GST and as you know it only got through with the support of the democrats (who are now extinct due to that terrible roll over) so I presume it was all hands on deck by the ALP to vote against it with no doubt a media hysteria if they were not.

  189. Mr Rudd wasn’t even a shadow minister when the GST vote went to the senate Neil – he’d only been elected in the 1998 election :roll:

    Actually, both Mr Beazley and Mr Rudd were in parliament that day (28 June 1999).

  190. Bacchus

    If the GST went through the HOR’s on 28 June I guess they would be in parliament.

    Still don’t think it is a big deal that Abbott was not in Australia when it passed through the Senate. It looks like the days the Senate sits can change so it would be impossible to plan for unforeseen changes in sitting dates.

  191. Neil

    “Still don’t think it is a big deal that Abbott was not in Australia when it passed through the Senate.”

    Personally I agree, however your own hysteria at times over petty rumours and inuendo, that are totally baseless, and making them a big deal against the “leftoids”, simply invites the same response.

  192. Neil at 12.10
    Sure it’s a big deal. Mr Abbott has devoted himself to protecting us from this vile tax. He should have been there to the last minute, pleading with Senators of good character to see the error of their ways & recant.
    If it meant a slight disruption to his travel plans so what? He had no objection to others’ plans being disrupted a week or so back. Bigger things are at stake!!!

  193. Neil. you are the one who appears to believe it is a big deal.

    For most of us, it is just par for the course for Mr. Abbott.

    As I have said there are more interseting things to talk about.

  194. “Neil. you are the one who appears to believe it is a big deal.”

    I am not making a big deal. You lot called him a coward for not being in Canberra/Australia when it passed through the Senate.

    I know you are just playing diversion again. It is one of the ALP supporters favorite games.

  195. Neil

    I have no doubt you would be shouting from the rooftops if it was the other way around. Did you not snipe at Julia Gillard for not attending queston time after the government found out it did not have the numbers for the Malaysian Solution.

  196. Look at the way they have reported in the Canberra Times the Obama visit and itinerary.

    “But before Mr Abbott gets too excited, he should note that the White House adverb for the meeting was “briefly”
    .
    Following his encounter with Abbott, Mr Obama will take parliamentary centre stage when he addresses a special joint sitting of Parliament at about 10.15 am. ”

    http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/further-obama-visit-details-revealed/2353745.aspx?storypage=1

  197. Sue, I do hope Tony doesn’t try to impress with his ‘rough and tumble’ speech again. That wouild be preaching to the quoir and a waste of breath as the President is dealing with dozens of ‘Tonys’ back home !

  198. ‘Nauru solution’ in tatters as leader quits

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/nauru-solution-in-tatters-as-leader-quits-20111110-1n8qu.html


    The opposition’s so-called “Nauru solution” for asylum seekers is in tatters with the sudden resignation today of Nauru’s president Marcus Stephen and foreign minister Keiren Keke.

    The two men were pivotal in supporting the Coalition’s policy to reopen an asylum seeker processing centre on Nauru for boat arrivals, and had met Opposition Leader Tony Abbott and opposition immigration spokesman Scott Morrison on their tour of Nauru in June.

    Mr Keke, in particular, had travelled to Australia during the 2010 election campaign to meet Mr Abbott and promote his slogan to “stop the boats” and “pick up the phone to Nauru”.

    and

    Australian government sources had indicated during the CHOGM meeting in Perth that there were rumours of the Nauru government’s financial dealings and suggested a vote of no-confidence was imminent.

  199. Neil re “You lot called him a coward…”

    Is it just me, but does anyone else find that term “you lot” when repeated over and over just a little bit grating. Around about now it’s akin to fingernails on the blackboard.

    As stated, Abbott went forth with the over the top rhetoric about the carbon tax and he p’s off before the final vote. He who p’sses off and leaves others to carry the can for him deserves what he gets.

  200. Min

    While I don’t actually find it grating it is usually used in a condescending nature by those who say it. I just keep telling myself that I am not one of “you lot” he refers to :)

  201. Min, speaking of ‘blackboard’ reminds me of the kid on the outer in the schoolyard…..niggles, name-calling, grump grump.

    and on the carbon tax, from Twitter

    CarbonTaxFan Carbon tax fan

    Public forums, international conferences, parliamentary duties… No wonder @JuliaGillard has achieved so much-she doesn’t stop!

  202. Tweet on Brendan Nelson :grin:

    gordongraham Gordon Graham

    “I liked him better when he had the ring in his ear”
    Paul Keating on Brendan Nelson #PJK #auspol

  203. I have no doubt you would be shouting from the rooftops if it was the other way around. Did you not snipe at Julia Gillard for not attending queston time after the government found out it did not have the numbers for the Malaysian Solution.”

    Well i do think MP’s should turn up to the HOR’s. Don’t you??? The vote was going through the Senate. There was no reason for him to be there.

    As for the Senate vote it is rumoured that Labor changed the date to a time when they knew Abbott would not be present. Abbotts trip had been planned for a long time.

    For people who say it is not a big deal you are sure making it a big deal.

  204. Wow Patrica- you sound happy. Excited even.

    Not a good reason to be happy and excited when a Coalition policy may not work.

  205. Neil

    For how much longer are you going to bring up the so called rumour. The ABC debunked your rumour by stating that everyone knew for over a week when the vote would be held. So Tony had time to change his flight.

    It is you harping on that one, let it go. I have already told you I personally don’t care.

    Julia did not attend question time, not a vote. Yet you sniped at her.

    John Howard avoided question time like the plague towards the end of his term.

  206. “Especially given the fact that Tony was only elected by 1 vote when another MP was absent at the time.”

    Two actually Shane. One overseas and the other either ill or in hospital, I can’t remember which. Anyway both were Turnbull supporters and stated they would have voted for Turnbull if present or allowed to absentee vote, meaning Abbott would have lost by one vote and the Liberals would probably be in power right now with a minority government at the minimum as Turnbull can negotiate and compromise with others. Abbott is so one dimensional and single minded that a major compromise for him is wearing a different shade of red Lycra togs.

  207. “Julia did not attend question time, not a vote. Yet you sniped at her.”

    O.K. This will show my lack of knowledge.

    Was the HOR in session when the Senate took their vote???

  208. ME

    Thanks for the headsup that makes it even worse. He is a leader by underhanded stealth not by democratic election. Funny how a citizen is fined for not voting but not a politician to elect their very important party leader. Should be law that all members of parliament of the party be present to elect a leader.

    I agree he is very one dimensional and I agree Turnbull would probably be in power as well.

  209. Sorry Pip – I tend to scroll down over anything involving a certain person and I’d raced past your earlier Nauru comment which pipped mine!

    I think the Prime Minister’s determination to keep the AS legislation listed ready to be presented again suggests she’s had more to do with this than meets the eye! If so, good on her, how dare the Nauru govt. do a deal with the Opposition when the government of the day holds the purse strings to aid allocations which keep Nauru afloat!

  210. Well lets hope she does something soon. The ALP has 6,000 people locked up.

    There would be riots in the streets if Howard was in power.

    And if Howard started to do people swapping by sending 800 to Malaysia he would be called inhumane.

    But I guess things are different now the ALP is in power.

  211. Pip @2.27pm. The Nauru solution was ‘in tatters’ with the advent of the last two High Court decisions especially with regard to the ruling on unaccompanied minors. But I suspect that this is a little bit too difficult for journos to get their heads around.

    I will refer (again) to the opinion of Australians for an Honest Media member Frank Brennan quoted first on my Onshore: the right place for refugees topic:

    No government can engage with legal certainty in offshore processing without first having Parliament amend s.198A. If there be no amendment of the Act, government must expect a legal challenge to any proposal for offshore processing wherever the announced destination. The legal challenge would commence in the High Court but probably be referred back to the Federal Court for a trial on the factual issues of protection and adequate processing. There would then be an appeal to the Full Court of the Federal Court followed by an application for special leave to the High Court.

  212. Neil, are you thick. The Opposition were given an extra week to debate bills. That is this week.

    Last Monday week, it was decided the vote would be taken on the Tuesday.

    Mr. Abbott could have waited before he flew out of the country.

    Most thought he was going Tuesday night, after the vote He went Monday night..

    If the truth was known, it was Mr. Abbot who decided to go before the vote.

    There is no conspiracy. Mr. Abbott made the choice not to be available for interviews.

    The PM has NEVER ducked interviews. The PM always waits until the questioning peters out before walking away, unlike Mr. Abbott.

    It is you Neil that is trying to turn this into a story.

    THERE IS NO STORY.

    There is no rumour, except for the one that bother you are attempting to start or is in your head.

  213. As for “you lot”, just be grateful that one does not belong to “his lot”. It would be very lonely.

    I am proud to be found among the “lot” on this site.

    I sorry for Neil, if he thinks being one of the “lot” on this site is seen as an insult.

    At least the”lot” on this site do not have to ignore inconvenient facts to have an view or opinion.

  214. Neil, I would be surprised if your 6000 figure is correct. They are being moved into the community quickly now.

  215. Neil

    I also tend to agree with you on the mess that is the asylum seekers policy and boat people.

    Having said that I presume there would have been a challenge against the “Levy For Everything” government as well had they been in power with their offshore processing. I wonder whether the ALP and the Independents would have acted as irresponsible as Tony Abbott in nay naying the government out of sheer spite and demanding Nauru be closed and only passing the laws if Malaysia was opened. I wonder if it would have been the governments fault or that terrible opposition for not letting the government get on with implementing its policies and blocking necessary legislation.

    The opposition places itself on future hostile ground as it continues to denigrate all and sundry over anything and everything. Things have a tendency to come home to roost.

  216. “Neil, are you thick.”

    Well maybe you are right. But according to the link I have the HOR is not sitting this week. Why should Abbott wait if the lower house is not in session??? Do you think he should have marched around parliament while the upper house was in session while the lower house wasn’t???

    Why the hell should Abbott wait because the lower house had already voted and was not in session. Only the upper house was in session this week.

    Labor also tried to ram the vote through the Senate. The allegation is that labor gaged debate in the Senate.

  217. Shane, it’s very convoluted. The government could not have foreseen that the High Court would have changed it’s mind and contradicted previous rulings from the Federal Court. I won’t argue it here because it would take pages and pages to do so with references back to Constitutional law, federal court cases, precedences etc etc.

    Once I read the entire High Court ruling I could see where they were coming from, but it’s nothing which anyone could have foreseen.

    However, for Tony Abbott to put forward that Nauru was an option given the High Court ruling was nothing more then either total ignorance or an out and out lie.

  218. Neil, It is not that Mr. Abbott was no

    Coincidence??????

    Who knows.

    Neil, Mr. Abbott says it is his job to destroy the government and the PM. Are you saying that one does not have the right to defend themselves or what they believe in.

    The answer as far as you appear to believe, no one has the right to defend the government. If they dare do so, they are to be ridiculed and attacked with venom.

  219. Neil, how does one ‘ram’ a vote through the Senate? Ya know, they sorta sprung d’is t’ing called a carbon tax on yers and nobuddy knows nuffin, WTF is d’s thing called uh carbon tax.

    If any of these good Senators did not know what a carbon tax is and the details pertaining thereof, then those who did not know should be immediately phoning for some immediate assistance…of the white coat variety.

  220. Min

    I was not questioning the legality of offshore processing or the decisions made by the government. or the court. I was making a point regarding the continual negativity by Tony Abbott against anything which could come back to haunt him and how it would have been labelled so differently if the “levy For Everything Government” was in power when the court made the decision.

  221. Shane, you said that the asylum seeker policy was ‘a mess’, I was providing factual information about why..this being not what you will read in the newspapers. Constitutional law has always been my passion, that plus Criminal law..having David Heilpern as my criminal law lecturer certainly helped with that one. Anti-discrimination which is what I did for a number of years, which likewise David Heilpern introduced me to crosses over into both.

    On the other hand I might play music or run off to do a spot of crocheting ;)

  222. Min. I do think the policy is a mess, but I don’t think it would be any less a mess under the previous government because the court decision would have been the same.

    Riley is doing pretty well thanks Min. I think he is getting arthritis now as a result of the stroke, but otherwise happy and being spoilt as usual. Thanks very much for asking.

  223. “Should be law that all members of parliament of the party be present to elect a leader.”

    Shane this is the Party’s law and I think it’s the law for all parties. A member must be present to cast a vote when there’s a party leadership challenge, even it’s a back stab like Abbott did on Turnbull, Gillard on Rudd etc.

    I don’t think Abbott did anything deliberately underhanded, only that his puppeteers knew he was close to the numbers to overthrow Turnbull and his minders pulled his strings and he moved. For all I know there might have been Abbott supporters away, but when there is a leadership challenge in the wind the contenders, especially the usurper, count every vote and potential vote very carefully before making their move, so I have little doubt Abbott knew two crucial Turnbull supporters would be absent due to circumstances beyond their control.

    All history now. They have Abbott as leader and are now regretting putting such a brain farting dummy in control, who they probably thought would be an asset at the start as they could manipulate him anyway they wanted.

    Didn’t work very well at the start and they had to keep hiding him away for long periods for nearly every time he opened his gob there was a foot in it and he was considerably embarrassing them. In they end they more or less managed to get him to run around doing stunts and have him stick the script, say no to everything and mutter three word slogans so they thought they were home and hosed. Only problem was that Abbott often strayed from the script and every time he did it cost them billions they had to find or talk away in blatantly obvious nonsense.

    Their strict control of this dunderhead just couldn’t be sustained and he’s a liability and always has been. Look at every poll since Abbott became leader and you will see he has never been popular or thought of as a credible leader.

  224. Shane, the policy had the best of intentions (to stop the people smuggling trade) but came adrift due to unforeseen circumstances this being the High Court contradicting a previous Federal Court ruling.

    The UNHCR does have a substantial presence in Malaysia where 92% of refugees are Myanmar (Burmese). I would have liked it for these already processed refugees to have made their home in Australia, but Tony Abbott’s non-support of the Malaysia solution stopped that one.

    We now have onshore processing. Tony Abbott can bleat on and on about Nauru, but the High Court ruling made just a mess of his policy as it made of the government’s.

  225. Good call Mobious Ecko I agree 100% with your comments on Abbott.
    He generally improves in the polls when he says nothing however just like Mirabella can’t keep the mouth shut.
    The minders then convinced him to just walk away in silence – must have taken all of his self control to comply with this one.
    It’s amazing that they have kept their poll standing and this show just how much media bias there is at the moment. Understandable in the commercial media, unforgivable at the ABC.

  226. Why does the ABC allow free advertising for 2GB and 2UE? Every News 24 interview has billboard microphones stuck next to the face of the interview subject. Would be a simple matter to pixelate them out.

  227. I’m sorry if this has already been mentioned, but didn’t Hockey run for the leadership only after Abbott originally told him he wouldn’t be? I think the old guard were worried it’d be between a couple of moderates.

  228. Roswell
    Not sure about that, but there was something about Hockey asking others to tell him what to think about the whole Carbon thing.

  229. I think I worked out why ALP supporters think Abbott should have been in Canberra this week even though parliament was not sitting.

    Its a control thing. Leftist people preach freedom but when they get into power they like to control everything.

    They tried to control Abbott by saying where he should be this week.

  230. Has anyone said Mr Abbott should be in Canberra Neil? Just another meme you’ve made up in your argument with yourself?

  231. Min

    ‘We now have onshore processing. Tony Abbott can bleat on and on about Nauru, but the High Court ruling made just a mess of his policy as it made of the government’s.’

    That was my point, it would be just as bigger mess if they were still in government owing to the ruling.

  232. Well they said he should be in Australia. Not sure why since parliament was not sitting. They said he was a coward and was cutting and running.

    I think it is a control thing. Leftists like to control people.

  233. Bacchus, re “Just another meme you’ve made up in your argument with yourself?”

    I’ve noticed this too, Neil having an argument with himself because nobody actually said it.

    Personally, I’m very delighted that Tony Abbott is out of the country..in fact if it was up to me he never need come back at all..ever.

  234. One needs to take their mind back to the days leading up to Abbott’s win.

    Mr. Abbott and Mr. Hockey were both caught seeking in and out of Mr. Howard’s home. Mr. Hockey did as Mr. Abbott wanted to. Mr. Abbott ended up the winner.

    A little divide and rule politics by Howard.

    Fran Bailey, in Victoria fell ill on the weekend from stress caused by the fires in her region. She was ordered not to travel.

    From where I sit, I do not see why she could not have recorded a vote from her sick

    No way you look at it, Mr. Abbott manipulated and schemed to get Mr. Turnbull’s job.

  235. No way you look at it, Mr. Abbott manipulated and schemed to get Mr. Turnbull’s job.”

    And Bob Hawke handed the ALP leadership to Keating???

  236. “Mr Abbott had always said he would stand aside if Mr Hockey contested the leadership..”

    Well Min he did. Mr. Abbott needed Mr. Hockey to split the numbers, which he did.

  237. “like Mirabella can’t keep the mouth shut.”

    Ms. Mirabella has proven us wrong this week. She can keep her trap shut.

    On Monday she stood beside Mr. Abbott when he released his new ante dumping policies.

    Ms. Mirabella stood there because it is her policy and she has carriage of the matter.

    Not one more word during the week. Not one interview or TV show.

    The policy and Mirabella has sunk like a lump of lead to the ocean floor.

  238. Neil, Mr. Keating challenge Mr. Hawke, lost then went to the back bench.

    Mr. Keating was very open in what he was doing. Mr. Keating never at any time acted behind anyone’s back.

    Mr. Keating did not encourage another to run, saying he supported them.

    Then at the last moment do the dirty on them,

    Mr. Keating beat Mr. Hawke on merit.

    It was time for Mr. Hawke to go.

    This is how parties and governments renew themselves.

  239. Neil, this might surprise you, but in a democracy it is OK to challenge the leader in any party.

    That is the difference between democracy and dictatorship.

    In this case, Mr. Abbott is being question about how he went about challenging Mr. Turnbull.

    The PM went to Mr. Rudd and told him he did not have the numbers. The PM told Mr. Rudd she was challenging him.

    The PM’s challenge was based on facts.

  240. Yes CU I forgot. An ALP challenger is always pure of heart. However Liberal party challengers are manipulators.

  241. No, Neil, that is not what is being said. No one said that Mr Turnbull was wrong when he challenge Nelson.

    No one has any complaints about Mr. Hockey making his challenge.

    No, it is about Mr. Abbott’s actions and duplicity.

    Neil, I know I am wasting my time. I have only replied in case others think that way.

  242. Actually I think the Liberal party leadership contests are more democratic than the ALP. The ALP factional system is very strong with factions electing leaders and it appears factions taking turns with cabinet positions.

  243. Of course we all know there are no fractions in the Liberal Party.

    As for Labor,fractions are given much more weight than they have had for decades.

  244. Our unsucessful PM

    Notice how quick polls can change.

    “….Her predecessor, Mr Rudd, started the year as the most popular Australia leader in thirty years, but his approval ratings collapsed after he shelved his flagship environmental policy, an emissions trading scheme. In a country that favours battlers, many regarded it as an act of political cowardice.

    Ms Gillard has long attracted headlines for her hair, restyled and dyed an auburn shade instead of its natural ginger, her partner who is a hairdresser and her decision not to have children.

    One conservative MP even once remarked her unmarried status made her unfit to govern. He later apologised for the comment but, in the socially conservative heartland of middle-class Australia, it can be an issue.

    The straight-talking lawyer, known for her wit and savage put-downs, has forged a reputation as a formidable parliamentary performer since taking on the demanding employment and education portfolios under Rudd….”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15674832

    “Europe applauds Australia’s carbon tax, says ambassador Nelson
    by: Peter Wilson From: The Australian November 10, 2011 12:45PM ? Tweet thisAUSTRALIA’S adoption of a carbon tax has been applauded by European ”

    AUSTRALIA’S adoption of a carbon tax has been applauded by European nations, with the move generating international interest comparable to that of apologising to the stolen generation, says the ambassador to the European Union.

    Brendan Nelson said he has received “universally positive” feedback about the new legislation from his Brussels-based peers.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/europe-applauds-australias-carbon-tax-says-ambassador-nelson/story-e6frg6xf-1226191228452

  245. Is Tony Abbott no longer the Murdoch press’s flavour of the month..yet another anti-Abbott piece, this time it’s pro-Turnbull.

    MALCOLM Turnbull is openly defying Opposition Leader Tony Abbott over his new direction on gaming policy.

    In a video tribute from anti-gambling advocate Tim Costello posted on Mr Turnbull’s website, Mr Costello praises Mr Turnbull for his “leadership” in backing tough reforms on problem gambling.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/defiant-malcolm-turnbull-taking-a-gamble-over-tony-abbotts-gaming-policy/story-e6freuzr-1226191935423

  246. Must read article by Andrew Elder over at Politically Homeless

    Over the past week the structural shortcomings of the Coalition have been highlighted as starkly as they were once skated over. The Coalition has time to deal with those shortcomings, but it does not have the perspective or the will to do so. It will not get these qualities until after they lose the next election.

    http://andrewelder.blogspot.com/

    Thanks Andrew you have done good work in blowing the lid off a sad chapter in Australian Federal Politics.

  247. lunalava
    something you may chose to read

    “After the 2007 election, Credlin was parachuted into new leader Brendan Nelson’s office. Then, when he was dumped, she moved in with Turnbull — whom she had previously disparaged to colleagues — as chief-of-staff. And when Turnbull was forced out, she worked with Tony Abbott

    Abbott takes Credlin with him whenever he travels around Australia — which is unusual for Liberal leaders and chiefs-of-staff — so she gets to meet everyone in the party. “That gives her power,” says a prominent NSW Liberal. “She is the conduit to Abbott. Even the shadow cabinet talk to her.”.

    http://www.thepowerindex.com.au/political-fixers/peta-credlin

  248. Thank you el gordo..yes you are very observant, our hits and comments have gone through the roof. Quite amazing the stats for the past week and it’s not just coming in via Crikey where this blog was featured.

  249. Thanks el gordo

    there has been so much talk about the alp and sussex street BUT after reading about Credlin- Loughnane and the Liberal leadership you can only ask

    Why do these unelected liberals have so much power over the Liberal leadership
    nelson
    turnbull
    abbott ?

  250. Politics 101 says it would have been better to keep Andrew Elder inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.

    Andrew, It’s a pity for our democratic process that the Liberal Party is not listening to your warnings, but it renews my hope that there still might be a chance for our political system.

  251. From the he original article by Kate Legge in the Australian

    FIRST let’s shine a light on the rumours swirling around Peta Credlin, the statuesque, politically astute chief of staff you might have seen standing in the shadow of Liberal leader Tony Abbott.
    It’s not true that she washed his lycra cycling suit at the end of each day’s “polly pedal” ride. She has, however, taken his laundry home, twice.

    So she does Abbott’s dirty laundry (not the metaphor, the real thing) as in skid marks WTF. This of course relieves the wife of a TERRIBLE obligation.

  252. “It’s not true that she washed his lycra cycling suit at the end of each

    Would a male done this or expected to do this.

  253. Migs, yes a very special day..Armistice Day or Remembrance Day, the anniversary of The Dismissal of Gough Whitlam, plus of course it’s also Patricia’s birthday..huggs all round :)

  254. Thank you all and to ME – It does look as though we’re likely to have better times here politically, but as for climes people of my generation do sometimes selfishly thank heavens we won’t be here if the planet continues to warm at the present rate.

    Julia Gillard is right. The passing of the CEF legislation marked a great day for our children and their children. Let’s hope that it will help in Durban later this month.

  255. Another shock headline for Abbott in News Ltd
    Abbott is ‘making a meal’ of helping Europe

    http://www.news.com.au/business/abbott-changing-position-after-a-week-and-a-trip-to-london-says-swan/story-e6frfm1i-1226192676009

    “Last week the Liberals were saying Australia should not consider contributing money to the IMF. Now Tony Abbott is saying we should. It’s taken a week and a trip to London for Tony Abbott to realise the stupidity of his position.”

    Abbott said it was important to “try to resolve the Eurozone crisis in ways which fix the problem, don’t simply fudge it so that we’re coming back to this again and again and again for years”.

    Mr Abbott said if Australia chipped in there should be “adjustments that are going to bring about lasting change for the better”.

    “I never said that Australia should fail in its duties of international citizenship. What I said was we need to be very careful about anything that involved throwing good money after bad,”

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/abbott-changing-position-after-a-week-and-a-trip-to-london-says-swan/story-e6frfm1i-1226192676009#ixzz1dN0vp4YF

  256. El gordo re: el gordo permalink
    November 11, 2011 4:04 pm
    As these words are being monitored by big sister I cannot say too much…the cafe leftards don’t understand wit.

    Last chance girlie…

  257. Sue, there certainly isn’t a great deal of consistency being displayed by Abbott. It’s now at the point where I’m not at all surprised at what comes out of his mouth. What will he bend to next?

  258. Roswell, I was actually debating as to whether el gordo may have misspelt it..with el gordo you would never know.

    Was it wit or was it whit. Whit of course being the least amount, an iota. On the other hand wit means with an ability to perceive.

    So was el gordo saying that we Cafe ‘leftards’ do not understand ‘wit’ or ‘whit’. Is it that we do not perceive the least amount or a general perception of the inability to perceive at all. I am sure that el gordo will be along any tick of the clock to explain her statement.

  259. Needs to be said

    “…”Tony Abbott’s and Joe Hockey’s idea that Australia should just shirk this longstanding responsibility is absurd.

    “John Howard and Peter Costello must be fuming listening to this tripe from Tony Abbott. Mr Howard and Mr Costello knew the benefits to Australia of supporting the IMF, its startling that the current crop of economic lightweights from the Liberal party don’t share this wisdom.

    “Mr Hockey needs to come out today and admit he’s again made a complete mess of this serious economic issue before the last rites are delivered on the Liberals economic credibility

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/abbott-changing-position-after-a-week-and-a-trip-to-london-says-swan/story-e6frfm1i-1226192676009#ixzz1dNYN3qVQ

  260. To me it was an embarrassment to watch the man.

    Is my perception mistaken in that there was only one reporter present.

    He is thankfully not setting the world on fire while in the mother country.

  261. Extreme Green victory pales on close scrutiny

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/extreme-green-victory-pales-on-close-scrutiny-20111111-1nb9b.html

    OMG. Maybe this wasn’t a takeover of Labor by the Greens after all.
    Maybe this was a pragmatic compromise reached between independents and two political parties with slightly different takes and slightly different levels of ambition, but the same policy objective, in a Parliament where the ruling party doesn’t have the numbers.
    That couldn’t be the real story, surely.

  262. What a great way to start the weekend with a witty yarn by Mike Carlton

    Bill flies above truly biblical fury

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/bill-flies-above-truly-biblical-fury-20111111-1nb9n.html

    Ron Boswell, a Queensland Nat, rocketed further into loopy hyperbole. The decision by the independent MP Tony Windsor to support a carbon tax had been ”the greatest sell-out since Judas Iscariot took 30 pieces of silver,” he fumed.

    Puce and steaming, Boswell himself emitted enough greenhouse gas to require him to buy carbon credits.

  263. Pip
    As you like Mike’s article then have a look of Laurie Oakes.

    Why it’s easier to barrack for Julia

    “The opposition’s most serious problem is that its own inconsistencies are becoming increasingly apparent as some of the pressure comes off Labor.

    There was an example overnight when Abbott delivered a major speech in London comparing Australia’s economic situation with that of Britain, the US and major European nations, emphasising in particular our low level of government debt – 8 per cent of GDP compared with 73 per cent in Britain and the US and 100 per cent in Italy.

    “On the face of this comparative performance, Australia has serious bragging rights,” Abbott said.

    “Compared to most developed countries, our economic circumstances are enviable.”

    This from an Opposition Leader who has been proclaiming economic gloom and doom himself, whose shadow treasurer, Joe Hockey, described our debt level at Budget time as “a mountain to climb”, and whose National Party mate Barnaby Joyce claims our gross debt is “tearing through the roof” and warns: “We are getting to a point where we can’t repay it.”

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/why-its-easier-to-barrack-for-julia/story-e6frezz0-1226193028630

    Now has Abbott been telling lies to the Australian public or is he just inconsistent and lets hope he gets to explain.

  264. Sue,
    Interesting comment from Oakes that the opposition’s inconsistencies are becoming apparent. What he really means is that the media have finally decided to report these inconsistencies.

  265. AntonyG

    so true. it will be interesting to see if that speech by tony is widely reported, or will we have to wait until parliament sits again.

  266. But you said the planet was going to cool so how is that good news el gordo.

    Also read the real facts on CO² saturation effects on plants. There are only a handful of plants that can take advantage of the extra CO² and though many grow quicker, their quality is a lot poorer, and this goes especially for food crops where the protein level and other essentials are sacrificed to grow quicker because of the increased CO².

    In all things nature or man made there are trade-offs, especially when changing a balance.

  267. Some good points in that article e g

    It also strengthens support for an alternative technique for teasing climate data from trees in the far north, sidestepping recent methodological objections from climate skeptics.

    The added growth is happening as the arctic faces rapid warming. While global temperatures since the 1950s rose 1.6 degrees F, parts of the northern latitudes warmed 4 to 5 degrees F. “For the moment, warmer temperatures are helping the trees along the tundra,”

    The outlook may be less favorable for the vast interior forests that ring the Arctic Circle. Satellite images have revealed swaths of brown, dying vegetation and a growing number of catastrophic wildfires in the last decade across parts of interior Alaska, Canada and Russia. Evidence suggests forests elsewhere are struggling, too. In the American West, bark beetles benefitting from milder winters have devastated millions of acres of trees weakened by lack of water. A 2009 study in the journal Science found that mortality rates in once healthy old-growth conifer forests have doubled in the past few decades. Heat and water stress are also affecting some tropical forests already threatened by clear-cutting for farming and development.

    There are already signs that the treeline is pushing north, and if this continues, northern ecosystems will change. Warming temperatures have benefitted not only white spruce, the dominant treeline species in northwestern North America, but also woody deciduous shrubs on the tundra, which have begun shading out other plants as they expand their range. As habitats change, scientists are asking whether insects, migratory songbirds, caribou and other animals that have evolved to exploit the tundra environment will adapt. “Some of these changes will be ecologically beneficial, but others may not,

  268. The undeniable fact is that Mr. Abbott spreads lies.

    In interviews, Mr. Abbott was still alleging that the Gillard government was one of waste.

    I am sure Mr. Abbott has not given the PM or Labor, any credit for situation the country finds itself.

    I was wondering why we did not see a report of his speech, he travelled across the world to make.

    Of course it is Mr. Howard’s party in the UK. I am sure he was adequately congratulated. The fact that Labor has been in charge over four years would not have got a mention.

    Antony, the speech was last Thursday, I assume this is about all we are going to hear about it.

    I am sure that Labor will ensure it is widely quoted.

  269. el gordo, if the plants are growing in the tundra regions, that means that all regions are getting hotter. To e, that means the deserts are also growing.

    Maybe transferring your interest to UFOs is safer.

  270. Sue,
    The latter part of the quote was the one that also caught my eye. Some of the flora might adapt and so might insects, but mammals which are far slower to evolve and hence adapt are a different story.

  271. ‘But you said the planet was going to cool so how is that good news el gordo.’

    In the sense that it proves warming has been happening and now we’ll see how regional cooling effects growth in coming years.

  272. CU
    I read that Howard canceled his last speech to fly back for personal reasons.
    Have you seen anything? There is personal and then there is the perils the liberal leadership is taking the liberal party.
    Abbott and his chief of staff versus Robb/Hockey. As Robb was not included in the backflip on superannuation, Turnbull is doing his own thing and the press starting to highlight Abbott’s No policy position, the iron grip might be slipping.

  273. Sue,

    John Howard cancels Oxford Union speech

    http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/john-howard-cancels-oxford-union-speech/story-e6frfku0-1226193120813


    “I apologise for this change of plans and am truly sorry for any inconvenience which may be caused to you and your colleagues as a result,” Mr Howard wrote.

    The former Liberal leader, who held Australia’s top job for more than 10 years, said “circumstances have arisen requiring my departure from the UK”.

    He wouldn’t want to miss having a say in any leadership rumble, would he ?

    Either that ot there is a family problem…

  274. China’s CO2 emissions went from 2.8 billion tonnes to 7.7 billion tonnes or an increase of 4.9 billion tonnes in 10 years.

    Don’t like the look of their green credentials, no matter what Bob Brown says.

  275. Abbott’s contradictions are getting more frequent & obvious. It’s to be hoped they eventually reach some sort of critical mass, whereupon he simply ceases to be.

  276. Here is an example, “The Federal Government has labelled the Coalition’s position on whether to increase the superannuation guarantee, which is part of the mining tax package, as confusing and chaotic.

    Labor wants to increase compulsory superannuation contributions from 9 to 12 per cent.

    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott says a coalition government would keep the super increases in place – even though it does not support the mining tax.

    Opposition finance spokesman Andrew Robb says the Coalition will only go ahead with an increase to the superannuation guarantee if it can find other savings.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-12/opposition-backs-super-contributions-increase/3662416

  277. Seeing a quote somewhere about Abbott’s speech in England referring yet again to “incompetent installation” of pink batts being a fault of the Governments touched a hair trigger nerve. Like Lone Pine, Bradman’s Invincibles, Tobruk, Long Tan, the Oarsome Foursome & so many other “iconic” aspects of our history, the installation of pink batts was carried out by AUSTRALIANS. If we’re to bask in the reflected glory of the positives we should, but don’t, accept that large numbers of us are what’s in it for me & bugger you small time crooks. But we don’t want to accept that so it’s much better to blame the Government, especially with so much encouragement to do so.

  278. Sue and Antony G re the Oakes article. Yes, the inconsistencies of the LOTO are becoming apparent because at last they are being reported and commented on! And Julia Gillard has not suddenly found her feet as leader or become Prime Ministerial during the ten days of a Royal Visit, CHOGM, and G20 meetings. Nor has she suddenly been able to demonstrate her negotiating skills thanks to Alan Joyce. Those qualities have always been there – from the first day of the hung Parliament. That’s why the Independents agreed to support a Labor government with her as Prime Minister and not the LOTO.

    The recalibration Oakes suggests is needed by the Opposition is in fact the recalibration required of these media ‘stars’ who need to somehow rationalise and explain to themselves and their readers why this sudden volte face in their reporting and commentaries. It can’t be as simple as only now seeing what a fool Abbott is compared with Julia Gillard. They only needed to look at the qualities shown, the speeches made and the achievements of both prior to 2010 – all of which they recorded and commented on over several years.

    The shift which many of them and bloggers too describe as a turning of the tide, a trend etc. to me seems seismic in its timing and potential dimensions. The timing seems all about the changes in the Murdoch family dynamics and News Corp’s business imbroglio with its obvious political implications in Oz which promise to be huge. Does that explain Howard’s sudden winging home?

  279. Antony G
    Interesting that when under pressure all these opposition spending promises start to be qualified- “if…”. Will they get away with much of that?

  280. patriciawa

    so true and isn’t it either disgusting or amazing that the journos are finally seeing what Windsor, Oakshott and Wilkie saw over 12 months ago.

  281. BSA Bob

    “if” you muggins are gullible enough and “if” we can get Abbott to take issues to the party room and “if’ we can get the press to only use our press statements and “if” xmas can come a bit faster and “if ……umm errr

  282. so true and isn’t it either disgusting or amazing that the journos are finally seeing what Windsor, Oakshott and Wilkie saw over 12 months ago.”

    Or they could be telling lies about the people not in govt while covering for their Lords and masters the ALP

  283. Neil
    Sorry, but the ALP is in partnership with the Independents to form Government, it most definitely ain’t their lords & masters. To trot out a line like this is to contradict all those others about “real prime ministers, independent tails wagging the ALP dog etc, etc”, so beloved of the Coalition. An example, in fact, of what’s been talked about- all the Abbott & Coalition contradictions coming home to roost.

  284. Patricia, I agree wholeheartedly about Gillard’s negotiating skills..it’s what she excels at. The evidence of course being that she was able to form government which Abbott was unable to.

    If the government had come up with such shonky statements about ‘ifs’ as Sue put it, the media would be all over them like a rash.

  285. ‘el gordo, if the plants are growing in the tundra regions, that means that all regions are getting hotter. To e, that means the deserts are also growing.’

    Its true that regional warming has had an impact in the northern hemisphere, but in relation to the deserts there is still heated debate. Somalia is an example.

    Ample evidence suggests that the extra CO2 in the system has been beneficial in the recent greening of north Africa. (Link available on demand)

  286. I like the closing paragraph from Lenore Taylor:

    OMG. Maybe this wasn’t a takeover of Labor by the Greens after all. Maybe this was a pragmatic compromise reached between independents and two political parties with slightly different takes and slightly different levels of ambition, but the same policy objective, in a Parliament where the ruling party doesn’t have the numbers. That couldn’t be the real story, surely.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/extreme-green-victory-pales-on-close-scrutiny-20111111-1nb9b.html#ixzz1dSrorqdd

  287. Always fascinated by this type of stuff no matter which way the evidence the points to.

    Thanks for providing the link. Interesting stuff.

  288. Sue, I do believe that Mr. Howard would not cancel that speech at Oxford, it he had a choice.

    That said, maybe he is too embarrassed by Mr. Abbott’s behaviour to stay about.

    I did hear one rumour that Mr.Pyne was leading a charge to dislodge Mr. Abbott. Mr. Robb has admitted he was not invited to economic meetings, saying his name must have slipped off the list.

    There are not many happy little vegemites in the Liberals at the moment going by their body language.

    It is amazing that Mr. Oakes is now supporting the PM web one recalls is obvious anger at and dislike of Ms. Gillard up to recently

  289. Catching up,
    Interesting. I would have thought that Pyne would have been Abbott’s man.

    This week we have had more criticism of Abbott, more scrutiny of the opposition’s policies than I can recall. I also get the impression that something is in the wind.

  290. “Seeing a quote somewhere about Abbott’s speech in England referring yet again to “incompetent installation” of pink batts being a fault of the Governments touched a hair ”

    BSA, I believe there was once a time that it was not considered the right thing to trash ones PM overseas.

    One cannot undermine a PM without undermining ones country.

    Most would not even know what he was talking about but would see him as disloyal.

    It is Mr. Abbott’s job to talk the country or, not down.

    I believe this is an convention that leaders should think about returning to. There is a time and place for everything. It is not the place to play local politics on the international scene.

    The message is giving to the worls, is the country is so badly managed that one needs to consider investing in it.

  291. The value of pokies or why clubs are fighting the govt:

    “NEAR-record profit of $2,942,000 has allowed the Commercial Club to completely wipe out its debt.
    The unexpected extra cash bonus is $500,000 more than chief executive Bruce Duck planned a year ago when the long-term future of the NSW clubs industry seemed uncertain.
    The club’s operating income was a record $35,954,883, of which $26,752,597 came from the poker machines.”

    Now NSW govt does okay as well:
    “The profit was achieved after paying $9 million in poker machine duty.”

    But back to
    “Board president Barry Edmunds is elated about the profit.
    “When you consider the economic climate is still very challenging a financial surplus of $2,942,000 is nothing short of outstanding,” Mr Edmunds said yesterday.
    Directors intentionally curbed capital works due to fears about the Gillard government’s plan to introduce “mandatory pre-commitment” on machines.
    “We cannot let this happen and the club industry is working extremely hard to make sure it doesn’t,’’ Mr Edmunds says in a report to the 26,275 members.
    “The repercussions would be devastating.

    http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/clubs-profit-clears-its-debts/2355770.aspx

    26,275 members
    $26,752,597 income from poker machines

    This club must have lots of visitors otherwise the members have a lot of money to invest in poker machines.

  292. el gordo, nature will always adjust to changes enforced on it by man.

    What is also true, the changes that nature makes will rarely be in the interest of man.

    Yes, some plants and animal life may grow, become bigger, but at the expense of others.

    Some regions might or will improve, but a greater number will not.

    Overall, the change will be disastrous.

    Carbon and other pollutants being emitted into the atmosphere that are not the only way we are destroying the planet.

    Cutting down trees is one example of how we have extended desert areas on the planet.

    There are many others, such as over use of our agriculture lands.

  293. Pyne, thinks he has a chance to lead the Libs
    ROFLMAO

    Imagine Harry Jenkijns, setting new political milestones by throwing out a leader of the opposition. Still there would be a standing applause from the galleries and the the house, when it occurred.

  294. Anthony G, only a rumour from a dubious source.

    Still, I do believe that something is afoot.

    Flogging the clean energy bill is not the answer now for the Opposition.

    Has one heard any great outcry from the public about this week in parliament.

    The public, I believe is not interested one way or the other.

    The public just are not interested. The are happy to see the matter settled. I believe many businesses are of the same mind.

    I do hope Mr. O’Farrell goes ahead with declaring on the power bills, any increase due to carbon pricing. I also hope he notes increases from other causes.

  295. Address to the Policy Exchange: Tony Abbott

    http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2011/11/10/Address-to-the-Policy-Exchange.aspx

    and from a different angle…

    Australia should practise what it preaches, says Tony Abbott

    http://www.australiantimes.co.uk/news/australia-should-practise-what-it-preaches-says-tony-abbott.htm

    In announcing the UK visit on his website, Mr Abbott said he was looking forward to “being briefed on the European economic situation.” By all appearances, Mr Abbott was still digesting the complications of the crisis; his speech lacked the natural and easy flow for which his supporters praise him. Indeed, on a number of occasions Mr Abbott stuck so closely to his prepared notes that he did not make eye contact with the crowd for up to 11 seconds. An eternity in speech giving.

    The wooden nature of the presentation did little, however, to dampen the enthusiasm of the politically likeminded souls who had gathered to hear him. Most were only too happy to stay on and mingle with Mr Abbott over some French wine before he left for his next appointment.

  296. Min, I cannot remember where I read it. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

    It is only a rumour, that I do remember.

  297. Cannot but help emphasise what Mr. Abbott is telling the world. This PM is useless and leading the country to ruin.

    “….Australians can enjoy the lucky break that the China boom represents but we shouldn’t really claim credit for it, especially as we’re no longer under the good management which helped us to take full advantage of it in the first place. Australia’s current economic position owes far more to the reforms of previous governments than to the spending spree of the current one.

    To give credit where it’s due, the Hawke/Keating Labor government deregulated financial markets, reduced tariffs, and began the process of privatisation and even workplace relations reform. Building on this, not only did the Howard/Costello Liberal/National government transform the Commonwealth’s fiscal position, it enshrined Reserve Bank independence, strengthened bank regulation, extended workplace reforms (albeit taking these too far in the end) and began serious welfare reform.

    The Rudd/Gillard government, by contrast, has turned a consistent $20 billion surplus into the four largest deficits in our history and a $70 billion net asset position into $107 billion of net Commonwealth debt. It’s rolled back not just the final round of the Howard government’s workplace changes but some of the Keating government’s changes too. As a result, days lost through strikes, though still very low by earlier standards, are over three times greater than in the last year of the Howard government.

    Since 2007, the US budgetary position has deteriorated by around 7 per cent of GDP, the UK budgetary position by just under 6 per cent of GDP and the Australian position by over 5 per cent of GDP (despite the absence of an Australian banking crisis and despite the China-boom-derived maintenance of employment). In other words, Australia’s recent fiscal performance has been scarcely better than that of others facing worse circumstances. Our current strength, such as it is, is due to what we took into the Global Financial Crisis rather than the way we’ve managed it.

    As much as any other government, ours has made the fundamental mistake of thinking that a crisis caused, in part, by too much spending and too much borrowing could be addressed by yet more spending and yet more borrowing……”

    A good advertisement for the country. To travel half way around the world, to trash the PM. Does bad mouthing your opponent make one look better.

  298. And CU, not just travelling half way around the world but the fact that his audience would not in the main have a clue what he was referring to.

  299. ‘Overall, the change will be disastrous.’

    This is true with regional cooling because of the debilitating effect on agriculture, but warming has been generally beneficial.

  300. From what I read about O’Farrell demanding that Energy companies show the full effects of the Carbon Tax on Power bill etc. It will be interesting to see who pays the fine if the ACCC finds the Carbon Tax amount is incorrect.

  301. “Warming has generally been beneficial”, such as turning once arable land into deserts. Just to give an example, the soil holds x amount of moisture and the species of plant have adapted to this amount. You will find that most species can cope with a certain amount of variation however as those who have experienced prolonged drought will realize, even hardy species such as eucalypts start to perish. Through warming, the optimal amount of moisture disappears entirely. Guess what happens el gordo, everything dies.

  302. ‘Through warming, the optimal amount of moisture disappears entirely.’

    As CU pointed out earlier, there are winners and losers in warming and I will add that regional cooling also has a severe impact.

    Over millennia animals and insects have migrated, same for the fish in the vast oceans, that’s reality.

    ‘Guess what happens el gordo, everything dies.’ Not because of a rise or fall of a few degrees.

    Homo sapiens are the new kids on the block, seven billion of us. It is most unlikely that climate change will reduce our numbers.

    On the other hand, if every fertile woman in the world had a decent job with fair pay, plus the pill, there would be a dramatic drop in the birthrate.

  303. Attempting to put the current global warming as a natural event by falsely linking past flora and fauna movements to the current completely unnatural and unprecedented movements, and declines.

    As has been pointed many times before this change in rapidity and scope is unprecedented outside of a sudden massive disaster, and species have no time to adapt and the areas that suit their biologies where they can move to are quickly changing or disappearing.

    But I thought you said the world was cooling, so how come you are now going on about warming and adoption? This is a normal denialist trait where they move from one assimilation to another and nearly always end up saying yes there is warming, but it’s natural and we will adapt along with there being many benefits to mankind because of warming.

  304. Mobius, for every 100 links to credible sources you produce el gordo will come up with one unreliable source from the University of East Bumcrack and claim a gotcha.

    You’d have more luck arguing with Nick Minchin.

  305. Roswell, I would be surprised if humans where the winners. I believe nature will have the last laugh.

    Nature has a habit of punishing us if we abuse her.

    el gordo is right in one thing. The quickest was to lower the birth rate is to lift the standard of living across the world.

  306. Abbott went to the UK to see how things are done , cost cutting the Cameron way, and this on the day after Armistice Day

    “More than 16,000 soldiers, including troops wounded in Afghanistan and Iraq, are to be made redundant under secret plans drawn up by the Ministry of Defence (MoD).

    The extent of the proposed job losses were revealed in a leaked MoD memo that emerged on the day that Britain paid tribute to its war dead.

    The Army had originally intended to shed 7,000 soldiers by 2015 in the second wave of cuts. But the memo, sent to commanders in Afghanistan, discloses that far wider redundancies are being planned and warns that soldiers who have been “temporarily downgraded” – injured in battle – will not be exempt.”

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/job-threat-to-wounded-troops-mars-armistice-6261215.html.

  307. We started talking about deserts expanding and the links illustrate how its not necessarily so.

    Looking at past climate change the deserts expand during cooler regimes, while the Holocene Climate Optimum saw the Sahara flourish. Temperatures then were a few degrees warmer than now.

    ‘But I thought you said the world was cooling, so how come you are now going on about warming and adoption?’

    The word is ‘adaptation’ and its how humans have survived warmer and cooler times over the past 100,000 years. When conditions become life threatening we migrate or perish.

    ‘I would be surprised if humans where the winners. I believe nature will have the last laugh.’

    Although we have no Plan B in place yet, humans are survivors of climate change. The indigenous population of this country have survived an ice age and deserve some credit.

    When modern humans eventually recognize that natural variability rules, we will have no trouble adjusting.

  308. “When modern humans eventually recognize that natural variability rules, we will have no trouble adjusting”

    True in the past. el gordo, do you ever ask why.

    I suggest that populations were must smaller.

    Change over much greater time frame.

  309. Technological advance has saved large numbers from what may have otherwise been a European famine in the first decade of the 21st century.
    Cool wet summers normally produce crop failures.

    ‘I suggest that populations were must smaller.’

    This is true, but when the price of wheat rises above what people can afford, they starve in large numbers

    ‘Change over much greater time frame.’

    Regional warming and cooling is happening at the same speed as in past cycles. I particularly draw your attention to the well known 60 year cycle and where we are in that time frame.

  310. el gordo, when I say much smaller, I mean many, many times smaller. There will be much less food to feed all that live on the earth.

    I still think nature will win. It has up to now.

    Human will be the losers.

    There is much more to what causes certain weather in certain regions than the temperatures.

    Land form, oceans and currents also play a big part. Extend the areas of high temperatures does not mean that what we can grow moves to a different zone on the globe.

    What will happen to the snow lines on mountains ranges. I think you will find the snow much higher and less of it. Less water to irrigate the fertile agriculture lands we have for one change.

    This is just one suggestion.

    Does the carbon emissions remain close to the ground so the plants can breathe it in, or does it rise high up into the atmosphere.

    I know the higher one goes, the less oxygen there is. Does carbon also work the same way.

    el gordo, you could be correct but I am not willing to take the risk.

    The world will be cleaner and we will be less reliant on fossil fuel, which in itself a good thing.

  311. El gordo, CU and Roswell. And that is a topic in itself. Unfortunately for those countries with high birthrates it is not as simple as women obtaining a decent job – firstly they have to receive an adequate education. In almost all cases where the general status of women is improved via education a reduction in the birth rate naturally follows. Also the health of women and children as the extremely high infant mortality rate acts as a deterrent for people to stop having children – if only 1 or 2 children are likely to survive childhood, then people have lots of babies. In fact I would say that the first thing that must be done is to improve the health and nutrition of the population, because not having to have 6 babies then frees women to be able to pursue an education.

  312. el gordo, I believe you pick out the good and ignore the bad., Like most things there is a little truth in what you are saying but it is not the whole picture.

    “Of course, any comparison of specific positive and negative impacts is complicated by the fact that the effects of climate change will vary according to both location and time. For example, the science suggests that global agricultural productivity may increase during the first three degrees Celsius of warming, driven by gains in relatively wealthy high-latitude regions. During that time, however, productivity looks likely to fall in the poorer tropical areas, followed by a drop in global food production if the temperature warms by more than 3C – something that could be expected to put a huge strain on a world population expected to exceed nine billion by the end of the century.

    This example reflects a few wider themes: that a positive benefits can give way to negative ones as the climate continues to warm; that some of the possible longer-term impacts are potentially catastrophic, compared to fairly insubstantial short-term benefits; and that the regions most exposed to the risks of climate change are very often the ones that are least responsible for causing them and least equipped to deal with them. This latter point explains why the most prominent groups campaigning on global poverty and equality see climate change as a major threat.

    Ultimately, however, terms such as “good” and “bad” are subjective, so there can never be a single definitive answer to this question….”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/may/11/climate-change-good-thing-benefits

  313. Min, I am not saying it is easy or even posiible. What I am saying, as the standard of living goes up, the birth rate always falls.

  314. CU you made some interesting points and all worth discussing, but as I’m pressed for time ….

    Humans won’t be the losers, nor will mother nature. We are a robust species on planet earth and now beginning to explore outer space, humanz are winners.

    Industrial carbon emissions fall to ground or oceans reasonably close to where they are emitted, the buildup of natural CO2 (emerging from warmer oceans) is probably the bulk of increasing carbon dioxide being recorded.

    The demise of mountain glaciers in recent times has been caused by warming, but all eyes are now on the growth taking place in North America, which is where we would expect signs of regional cooling.

  315. Indeed el gordo, during times of climatic change humans survived mostly via emigrating. These days we have things called national borders – will we be willing to take all of the climate change refugees?

  316. Surely you must have heard about my Ord refugee centre?

    A satellite city in the middle of nowhere, work for all who want it, no matter what race, creed or religion.

    No razor wire, just wide open space. Three star accomodation, but every amenity for the population of a growing city.

  317. el gordo, I would be surprise if the people in the Ord River area took kindly to being told they are in the middle of nowhere.

    It sounds like a expensive and unworkable option. Will there be armed borders.

    Why can’t they live like the rest of us Australians. Why the isolation.

  318. ‘Why can’t they live like the rest of us Australians. Why the isolation.’

    They will be free to go as soon as they feel ready to go mainstream. The intention is to equip all of them with language and work skills before they begin their great adventure.

    The isolation is important in the first instance because the rednecks expect nothing less. In time it will be connected to all capital cities by fast rail.

    All other refugee centres around Australia will be closed down and nobody will be forced to go back to their original homeland.

    We are not discussing economic refugees, climate change refugees may come in large numbers and need to be settled somewhere in a hurry.

  319. Pulled this pic from files.

    I know the WA government want to expand the Ord township and turn it into a major regional centre.

  320. Scaper was an idiot and banned from GT for his viciousness, also he had ‘no vision’. Scaper once said Martin Ferguson was going to knife Julia and become king pin, but it failed to eventuate.

    Stephen Smith looks good.

  321. el gordo, having live in Guildford and Cabramatta’s for most of my married life, it is a myth that newcomers do not fit in quickly.

    The older woman confined to the home might have problems but not the young. They learn very quick.

    I am talking firstly about the Vietnamese, then those who come from Lebanon after the six day war and those who followed after from Yugoslavia and like countries.

    There is no need to put these people in isolation. They eat, sleep and love their children, just like us. They wipe their bums and bath often.

    Many have qualifications.

    English is learnt quickly. Some even speak it before they get here.

    Yes, they are drawn to communities made up of their own kind, but with the passage of time, they move out.

    Most, especially the young do not want to live in migrant communities.

    The quicker they are able to be in the general community, the better.

    I also live and worked near the Villawood Migrant Centre in the 1960’s and 70’s. The migrants from the UK and Europe could not get out quick enough. They hated the camps. The problem that held them up was lack of housing.

  322. “I know the WA government want to expand the Ord township and turn it into a major regional centre.”

    el gordo, if it is a goer, they surely do not need refugees that are force to live there.

    Now Martin might be hard on woman, in fact I know personally he can be. I have never saw any indication over the years I knew him, that he saw himself as PM.

    I do not see it as vision to force people to live anywhere, especially refugees.

  323. El gordo @ 2.13pm scaper handed out for Rudd in the ’07 election. You do not know the reason for his banning but Migs and I do.

  324. I agree with you CU, but in order to defuse this issue politically we need to go out of our way for the sake of the redneck pantzwettez.

    Most refugees won’t be at the Centre for more than a week before being free to go into the wider community. It is important that the new refugees don’t burden the taxpayer unnecessarily, to avoid startling the punters.

    Many of the men may opt to work in the mines, making a small fortune to set themselves up comfortably. They will come home every couple of weeks to be with their friends and families at Ord City, a bustling metropolis.

  325. ‘From 1892 to 1954, over twelve million immigrants entered the United States through the portal of Ellis Island, a small island in New York …’

    Ord is an oasis in the desert, suitable as a transit point for present arrivals and any future influx because of climate change.

  326. Why is it that how may see the PM and the government do not fit in with the facts around us.
    ….
    “this start of an analysis of the hostility and negativity towards the Gillard Government by Paul Strangio says:

    I suspect when we look back at the current era we may come to view it as another such interregnum, as the neo-liberal regime decays and its replacement is yet only dimly grasped…And even if this is not the case, there is a disjunction between the most extravagant criticisms of this government and Australia’s relative economic prosperity and stability, especially when viewed in the context of the financial woes and political dysfunction in much of the rest of the world (look no further than the euro zone)….”

    http://www.sauer-thompson.com/archives/opinion/2011/11/questioning-the-1.php

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