Café Talk XII

Café talk American edition.

386 comments on “Café Talk XII

  1. When I see a face like this, it reminds me of the many years I resided in a violent marriage. Any child or woman out there, that suffered the same plight, knows what I mean.

    Think about what this means: the Baby Bonus, one of the pillars of the social contract, the safety net that ensured that nobody would have to give birth without getting a bunch of money, reduced to a pale shadow of itself, to the extent that a family with two children will get no more than 80 per cent of what they would have under a more democratic regime. Is this what our Diggers fought and died for at Gallipoli? So their grandchildren could live to see their natal-based benefits stripped away and their ability to use jolly gallows humour at Young Liberal functions annihilated? I think not.

    Shadow Treasurer Joe Hockey made the point that this reduction in the Baby Bonus was very similar to China’s one child policy, but in fact in many ways it’s even worse. After all, the one child policy merely discourages you from having more than one child. The Baby Bonus cut goes even further, by allowing you to have more than one child, but preventing you from having as much money as you might theoretically have had otherwise at the time. How confused would that make you as a new parent? How could you even care for a child, constantly brooding over the $2000 that you don’t have? You’d just never have your mind on the job.

    Believe me, when Australia’s founding fathers Howard and Costello envisioned a country based on principles of fairness and justice and getting $5000 for having a baby, they certainly were not picturing a country where you got $3000 for some babies. We’ve abandoned those ideals altogether.

    And that’s why it’s time for good people like me and you to stand up say “YES” to Tony Abbott. Because Tony Abbott is a man who understands the need to get $5000 every time you get a baby. Because he understands families. In fact he has at least one of his own.

    I first began to suspect Abbott might be the man to lead us to prosperity when I found out he had three daughters. As a man with two daughters myself — which technically makes me two thirds of a feminist — I know how hard it is to bring up children who come with less than $5000 attached, and I love the way Abbott instinctually gets that. As he says, often when you have a second child, you need to buy another cot, or a double pram, and if the government can’t buy you cots and prams then why exactly do we even have a government? We might as well slide back into the oceans.

    Think about how you would feel if you found yourself pregnant, with one young child already, needing a double pram, and only having $3000 on top of all of your own money. You’d feel pretty lonely, wouldn’t you? Pretty isolated. Pretty bleak. Like all the world had abandoned you, or at least like all the world had been slightly stingy.

    Tony Abbott understands this, because he’s a man who’s bought cots, who’s bought prams, who’s in all likelihood performed other parental tasks of some kind. When you sit there sobbing because after buying your cot and your pram you don’t have enough to buy a quality electric guitar as well, Tony Abbott knows exactly how you feel.

    And the simple fact is, Julia Gillard doesn’t. As a “career woman”, who didn’t have time to start a family because she was spending all her time playing the gender card, she doesn’t have the gut-level connection to Aussie mums and dads that Tony Abbott has. What would she know of cots and prams? She’s childless. She probably thinks babies sleep in fibreglass pods, as they would in the cold, sexless, socialist utopia which her government intends to introduce by June 2013 according to leaked Budget papers.

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/10/25/day-egalitarianism-died

  2. more………….

    Tony Abbott has courage. Tony Abbott has integrity. Tony Abbott has empathy with the common working parent, because he’s a common working parent himself. But more than anything else, Tony Abbott has functioning sperm. Three times he has despatched his tiny navy to storm the uterine beachhead, and three times he has come up with a reproductive VE Day. Tony Abbott’s sperm, like a Mac, just works, and isn’t it time we had something in government that we could say that about?

    Don’t let the Gillard comintern destroy our way of life. Don’t stand for a government that, in the name of socialism, spends like a drunken sailor and then fails to spend like a sailor in an alcoholic coma, and then won’t let you buy more cots. Don’t let your children grow up in a country ruled by sailors who can’t decide how much to drink.

    Vote 1 Tony Abbott’s sperm. Let’s claw back our baby-cash, and smell the air of freedom once more.

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/10/25/day-egalitarianism-died

  3. Our business leaders are always calling for leadership and comprehensive reform but they go weak at the knees when it’s time to make decisions? Ben Eltham on why business can’t be trusted on tax reform

    For an elite class that likes to go on a lot about “leadership”, we don’t see a lot of it from our business leaders.

    Leadership is the stock-and-trade of corporate retreats, of management seminars, and in the coursework of MBA degrees. But if we define leadership as working for something larger than the pursuit of shareholder value, true leadership in the Australian business sector is pretty thin on the ground.

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/10/25/big-business-ducks-reform

  4. The problem is that business in this country isn’t serious about meaningful tax reform. If it comes to a choice between the special interests of their own industry protections and loopholes, versus the general interest of the Australian community, business leaders take their own special interest every time.

    We’ve been here before. The Henry Tax Review recommended a reduction in company tax rates down to 25 per cent, funded by a broad-based series of tax reforms, including increased land taxes and more taxes on non-renewable resources. The latter idea was taken up Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swan in their ill-fated proposal for a Resource Super-Profits Tax. Of course, we know how the mining industry responded to that idea.

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/10/25/big-business-ducks-reform

    The MRRT debacle shows why business leaders can’t be trusted to help draft business taxes. Business leaders in this country like the BCA’s Tony Shepherd claim they want “comprehensive tax reform”. But what they really want are lower business taxes, and to keep their own special tax breaks as well.

  5. If the baby bonus is such a good thing, why not make it retrospective. Oh that’s right….:( . the budget couldn’t afford such largesse.

  6. rab, I bet there has been some fancy accounting for this, the first quarter. Accounting that will be hard to carry out for the whole year.

    It makes a nonsense of being so great, it will destroy the industry.

    It has highlighted what the MRRT is. It is a tax on super profits. No super profits, no MRRT.

    There is still tax being collected on the normal profit, which the Opposition tried to portray as not happening.

    It was taken into consideration with that update.

    Also it has to be taken ontop account, the increased royalties, that the miners have to pay, regardless of the profits, but comes off the MRRT bottom line.

  7. So now you are accusing Abbott of being a wife basher based on a photo? Got any more proof to back your disgusting slander?

    I also see that you blame someone else for the Mining Tax farce. Well, it is up to the government to legislate policy so the borrowed buck stops at the feet of Swan and Gillard. It is their responsibility!

    Things must be going swimmingly…they’ve borrowed $9B in the last four weeks, $8B the month before and another $8B the month before that.

    Oh, this is a new thread, not a new site…HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, CLOWN!

  8. I see the rusted ons think Abbott is also a ‘sandpit bully, poofter-basher, woman trasher, hyperbolist’ but this is the first time I’ve heard the monk has the face of a wife beater.

    Amazing.

  9. “She then cut down a prime minister in his first term and tried to pretend it was in the national interest to do so. Since then, she has been the architect of her own misfortune. The struggles she has had since the disastrous election campaign . . . can be traced back to the early months of 2010.”

    McKew

  10. No, scaper, I am not. I am saying that when I have witnessed such looks, it has been in violent situations.

    This is not the first, I have seen of a similar nature, taken within QT, of Mr. Abbott..

    I have often noted such behavior while watching QT.

    Maybe I am a little sensitive. Experiencing violence over a number of years, does that to one.

    Like I do not say he is a misogynist, but behaves like one,

    I am not saying he is violent, I am saying he sometimes appears.as if he is.

    I have not made the photos up. Sorry scaper.

  11. What MRRT farce. It is acting as it should. It is a tax on super profits.

    At this time, there are no super profits.

    There is still tax being collected on normal profits.

    The price of ore, is now on the way up. Maybe next quarter will be better.

    Not the governments fault that Mr.Abbott chose to misrepresent it, claiming it was so harsh, it would destroy the Australian mining industry..

    All that has occurred, that Mr. Abbott is once again guilty of exaggeration and scare tactics.

    The farce is Mr. Abbott continual exaggeration and scare tactics of everything Labor does.

    By the way, it has already been factored into the budget. So no secret there.

    Unlike the royalties, which the states have been putting up, which has to be paid regardless of profits.

    Mr. Abbott cannot have it both ways. The tax is as he described, or it is going to destroy the industry.

    Wonder which one he will choose. Either way, Mr. Abbott has been proven wrong once again.

    The shame is that Labor could not have got it through a couple of years ago, when there were super profits to collect.

    Wonder whose fault that is.

  12. el goro, did I say he had the face of a wife beater. I said his face, contorted as it has in that photo reminded me of my ex. I am sure there are many women who agree with me.

    Sorry to upset people.

    I also find the smiling Hockey, when he believes he has bad news to impart, a little annoying too.

    PS. I could withstand the beatings, even coped with the language, but the looks, I never got used to. I did not believe one could get so much hate into looks on ones face.

    Now it could be, that Mr.Abbott is a very mild man and does not realize the looks he imparts when he becomes passionate.

  13. When did McKew become so reliable and an expert. It is an opinion, nothing more.

    Yes, the PM is a strong woman, who I suspect did what she felt she had to at the time.

    I always felt that yes the PM is ambitious, but would have rather waited until she was ready.

    I do not believe she was at that time.

    The PM’s proven ability to look ahead, and bide her time, leads one to believe she knew she was taking a poison chalice.

  14. ………..
    Tony Abbott doesn’t always see or hear what women see or hear, writes Annabel Crabb. Will female voters be able to live with that?

    There are two ways to look at Tony Abbott’s growing collection of accidental foot-in-mouth moments.

    One is to view them as non-accidental, which is to assume that when the Opposition Leader referred to the Government “dying of shame” in Parliament, he intended to provoke Julia Gillard into an epochal, white-hot assault on his gender attitudes……..

    and

    To disparage a Government that – for all its faults – does for the first time in Australian history actually feature a Cabinet with several working mothers of young children, and suggest that it lacks experience in these matters … Well. It’s a big call, in any event.

    A few weeks ago, the Opposition Leader gave an interview to Triple M’s Grill Team – a line-up boasting the former footballer Matty Johns, and promoted widely as “Sydney’s Manliest Men”.

    Mr Abbott took two of his daughters along with him, and the first few moments of the show were spent in friendly joshing with the presenters about how good-looking the girls are.

    As a listener, my hackles rose immediately. I have enough trouble with the fact that a chap who is most famous for gang banging a 19-year-old girl even has a radio show, let alone being promoted as one of “Sydney’s Manliest Men”, let alone having the opportunity to drool over Mr Abbott’s daughters.

    My own strong instinct, as a chick, would be to hustle those girls straight out of that studio and never go back…………..
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-24/crabb-tony-abbott-clueless-or-calculated/4331806

  15. Oh dear…it’s the Abbott, Abbott, Abbott again!

    ” growing collection of accidental foot-in-mouth moments.” sounds a lot like the goose to me.

    WAYNE Swan clearly was rattled at a press conference yesterday as he responded to the disclosure that the minerals resource rent tax had not delivered a cent in the first three months of its operation from Australia’s biggest miners. The Treasurer, wearing a yellow fluoro vest, twice referred to the projected revenue from the mining tax in 2012-13 as $9 billion and said there had been a writedown of $4.7bn in the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook last Monday. The correct projected revenue for 2012-13 is just $2bn and the $4.7bn writedown, like the $9bn figure, is across four years, not one.

    Yellow flouro vest eh? Swan and Gillard are now paying for the PR they got from the miners in June 2010 after citing Rudd’s failure on the RSPT as a reason for his removal and the agreement on the MRRT as a sign of Gillard’s success.

    A yellow flouro vest seems just about right for Swan as his exit stage right beacons!

  16. “As a listener, my hackles rose immediately. I have enough trouble with the fact that a chap who is most famous for gang banging a 19-year-old girl even has a radio show, let alone being promoted as one of “Sydney’s Manliest Men”, let alone having the opportunity to drool over Mr Abbott’s daughters. My own strong instinct, as a chick, would be to hustle those girls straight out of that studio and never go back…………..”

    CU, you left out the most important bit of the quote…” I didn’t view the episode as evidence that Mr Abbott is sexist, or that he doesn’t love his daughters, or anything like that. It was just interesting – that something so screamingly apparent to me didn’t seem like a big deal to him.

    You also left out the fact that the interview to which you referred is a month old. Here’s the latest Grill team interview….http://www.triplem.com.au/sydney/grill-team/video/tony-abbotts-grill-team-interview-685938?tab=latest&offset=0

    Relevance CU relevance!

  17. So Abbott is the only one allowed to turn up in drag such as the yellow flouro,vest each day, repeating his stunt of the day6 before, with little new to say.

    Plus, it is prudent to wait for the fat lady to sing.

    Oh, how many times have many rubbe\d their hands in glee, with the near deposal of this government, only to face disappointment.

    Yes, a tax on super profits gathers nothing when there are no super profits. That is indeed amazing.

    They are still collecting the tax on normal profits.

    Not exactly the end of the world.

    Just makes Abbott and Co look at least stupid, with their warnings of the great harm the MRRT was going to wield in the mining industry.

    Already the falls in the price of ore was reversing. Not to the record levels, but rising. This should mean MRRT collections in the future.

    Yes, it is indeed amazing that the MRRT, which is taxed on super profits, should not bring in money. Amazing indeed.

  18. Did not one take note of that mind year budget review. It acknowledges that ore prices had dropped dramatically, leading to reduced receipts in all profit taxes.

    It’s also expected that the same prices were improving.

    Nothing new occurred yesterday.

  19. While you you slime Abbott with innuendo by association, Joanne Nova has this to say about Julia Gillard:

    “She didn’t want to offer an ETS, and later declared in the campaign “there will be no Carbon Tax”, but after the election she gave us both. Her poor supporters have been left to weasel and whine post hoc that the public voted for carbon action in 2007. Apologists dissembled on whether the carbon tax is a “tax” or a “fixed priced scheme for an ETS” pretending that a lie was not a lie, that Gillard was doing what the people wanted and not breaking her word. It all comes to nothing.

    Gillard cares for working families by giving them what they asked not to get and deceiving them about what a vote for Gillard means. This is “moving forward” right? Forward to where — a third-rate autocratic state?

    In 2010 eighty percent of Australians voted for parties promising no carbon tax. It’s not just that Gillard felt that an ETS was unpopular with the people, she didn’t even think it was worth trying to convince the people it ought to be popular.

    How could Gillard run for another election? There is no promise she could make that anyone can believe”

    This comment sums up the whisperer here as well….

    “Firstly, no honest appraisal of the situation would suggest that Labor didn’t renege on its undertaking to the electorate and as a consequence, showed bad faith. Swan and Gillard are quoted pre-election as completely ruling out introducing either an ETS or Carbon Tax, in fact it was a scare campaign by the coalition apparently according to Swan in his election eve statement of intent.

    Secondly, there is no evidence that Abbott ever intended to introduce a Carbon tax, and irregardless of that, the fact remains- he didn’t introduce a Carbon Tax, did he? No court of law can convict on what you might have done, only what you did do.

    Thirdly, Gillard didn’t have to capitulate to the Greens or the independents, all of whom bar Katter would have gone with Labor under any circumstances. Only a complete lack of respect for their constituents allowed Gillard and co. the latitude to make a deal so against the wishes of the vast majority of people with a functioning cerebral cortex.

    Fourthly, no matter how bad the current government is, no matter how heavily indebted we become, no matter how corrupt, fraudulent, immoral, untrustworthy or duplicitous these Labor politicians are shown to be, these men like Cat and Matt trot out and defend their heroes, spinning, contorting and dissembling wherever they can in a desperate attempt to deceive, manipulate opinion, and ultimately defend the indefensible.

    These are the same sort of apologists who acquiesce to atrocities and the propagation of various injustices in the name of some greater cause, except in this case there is even less excuse, in that this is merely parochialism, mindless barracking for a side, a team, or a particular “wing”. In so doing it is the sort of vacuous failure to accept reality that actually confirms how unfit these particular morons are to hold any public office, or to make any decision more complex that when to inhale or exhale. A hint guys, try not to do both simultaneously”

  20. ut the Treasurer refused to confirm or deny reports the MRRT had yet to raise any money saying he would not discuss the affairs of individual companies.
    But he did note that iron ore and coal prices had crashed between the May budget, when the initial revenue forecast was made, and September.
    A spokeswoman for BHP told The Australian: “The MRRT is a profits-based tax; the level of company liability for it will naturally vary each year.
    “In working out what MRRT we are liable for in any year, there are a number of variable components . . . The structure of the MRRT is exactly the same since it was announced in 2010 and it was then that Treasury forecasts were made about likely MRRT receipts.”

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/companies/mining-tax-fails-to-raise-any-revenue-in-first-three-months/story-fnda1bsz-1226502856657#ixzz2ALikVyPr

  21. But Labor frontbencher Simon Crean said the lack of revenue from the MRRT in its first three months was not a cause for concern.
    “It was never projected to raise (revenue) in the early part … because these mining companies are making massive infrastructure investments, which are tax deductable,” Mr Crean told the Nine Network.
    “Arguing that this is a failure based on the first three months is just ludicrous.”
    Mr Crean said the surplus would “absolutely” be delivered as promised.

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/companies/mining-tax-fails-to-raise-any-revenue-in-first-three-months/story-fnda1bsz-1226502856657#ixzz2ALj51rkD

  22. This is more worrying. The facts seem not to be, as Mr.. Abbott claims, the PM is being too hard on the miners, but that she has been too soft.

    The mining tax blow comes as Prime Minister Julia Gillard faces a potential battle with the Labor caucus over a report from a committee of MPs condemning cabinet’s policy of fly-in fly-out foreign workers in the mining industry.
    A confidential draft report of Labor MPs has called on the Prime Minister to appoint an industry watchdog to ensure more local workers are used in the mining industry.
    A copy of the draft report, obtained by The Daily Telegraph, has also accused cabinet of not spreading the benefits of the boom to Australians, by giving too many concessions to foreign mining companies.
    It also called on Ms Gillard to appoint a special cabinet minister to redraft the government’s current policy, demanding stronger commitments to use Australian labour ahead of foreign workers.
    The report’s finding have already led to the resignation of the committee’s deputy chairman, ACT MP Andrew Leigh, after a dispute over the committee’s findings.
    The committee was set-up following the government’s special deal to allow billionaire mining magnate Gina Rinehart to bring in 1700 migrant workers.
    Caucus sources said Dr Leigh strongly disagreed with the findings and quit in protest.

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/business/companies/mining-tax-fails-to-raise-any-revenue-in-first-three-months/story-fnda1bsz-1226502856657#ixzz2ALjx5oDt

  23. The Business Tax Working group has collapsed. This was the group Swan set up to figure out a way of ending corporate tax rorts to provide enough money to pay for a significant company tax cut.

    Business wasn’t prepared to accept a reduction in their rorts – deductibility of exploration costs, accelerated depreciation, limiting multinationals interest deductions and the like – to pay for their own general tax cuts. They want to have their cake and eat it too.

    The amount of subsidies or grants big business receives through the tax system runs into tens of billions. But it is not just business who are suckling on the teat of the tax system. For example the top 5% of income earners receive ten billion in superannuation tax grants.

    And remember how business demanded a Budget surplus to keep the economy running properly. Guess what? For business it is evidently OK to go into deficit, if the deficit is caused by a company tax cut. Always back the bosses’ self-interest…………..

    http://enpassant.com.au/2012/10/25/tax-tax-and-more-or-should-that-be-less-tax/

  24. DEAR Mr Misogynist,
    I’d like to thank you for everything you’ve taught me over the past 25 years.
    Why, I had no idea I was so fat, ugly and stupid. I thought being a size 12 was perfectly acceptable.
    But when you yelled across the newsroom, ”I want two inches off your hair and two inches off your arse”, suddenly, a light went on.
    Of course! The size of my posterior is directly related to the content and credibility of the stories I’m reporting on for this network. Silly me. You’re right. I’ll never make it as a TV journalist.
    Those wise words of yours from 1986 are still ringing in my ears: ”That’s why you don’t see blonde newsreaders,” you explained patiently. ”People don’t take them seriously.”
    It reminded me of another sage piece of advice, from a radio boss during a job interview some years ago.
    He put it simply yet eloquently: ”There’s a reason why you don’t hear women on commercial talkback radio,” he said. ”No one wants to hear the whiny sound of a female voice. Us blokes get enough nagging at home!”…………………………………….

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/and-heres-the-news-my-bums-got-nothing-to-do-with-the-story-20121025-28837.html#ixzz2AMENE6Fu

  25. What does she have to say. What is she right about. el gordo, once again, you have lost me.

    By the way, surprising, or maybe not so, most commenters disagree with Tracey Spicer at Channel 10.

  26. ‘She didn’t want to offer an ETS, and later declared in the campaign “there will be no Carbon Tax”, but after the election she gave us both. Her poor supporters have been left to weasel and whine post hoc that the public voted for carbon action in 2007. Apologists dissembled on whether the carbon tax is a “tax” or a “fixed priced scheme for an ETS” pretending that a lie was not a lie, that Gillard was doing what the people wanted and not breaking her word. It all comes to nothing.’

  27. Discombobulating again el gordo.

    We have quoted the context of that “No carbon tax” statement dozens or more times but the right wingnuts just continue to not only ignore that but ignore that two right wing sources, a newspaper and a radical right wing journalist, who said Gillard had been correct in the context of her statement and didn’t lie.

    Now I’m going to wait for el gordo to just as ardently point out every Abbott lie since the election and those election promises he broke since the election because in his words, “circumstances change”.

  28. Are Abbott’s continuous string of lies, including those on climate and the Carbon Price, but also on many other matters as well, not serious?

    And are you saying that what you wrongly conceive as one lie means that Abbott’s string of continuous lies are OK?

  29. “Now I’m going to wait for el gordo to just as ardently point out every Abbott lie since the election and those election promises he broke since the election because in his words, “circumstances change”.”

    Abbott wasn’t elected so how could he break election promises? Duh!

    The rural sector show Gillard’s Murray water for what it really is…. making promises for things that are going to happen out to 2024. I mean, they’ll be lucky to be there next year, let alone in 2024. Bwa hahahahahaha

    Here’s how she put it…
    “Gillard’s statement said the new money would be found “from within existing resources and from funds set aside in the recent Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook”. It would be “secured through a special account and advance appropriation of future funds to ensure its availability through to 2024″.

    What a load of meaningless claptrap. it reminds me of when Russ first went out west and was shown up to be an idiot in an akubra!

    The new plan comes with a five-year delay in the timeframe, meaning the full environmental benefit of the spending will not be realised until 2024.

    This quote sums it succinctly:
    “The extra 450 billion litres on top of the 2750 already committed won’t be bought until 2019. So, just on the off-chance that the nation’s most energetic and destructive government ever manages to secure its base and bribe sufficient numbers of people to return it to office, it will not have yet another embarrassing pot of money to leach out of the taxpayer. What with the mineral tax shortfall, “commitments” to spend big on education, dental health and anything else that tugs the heart-strings of the perpetually unsatisfied even Gillard is beginning to wonder if it all can be paid for.

    Of no concern to the government is the effect on farmers’ confidence in their future with all this entails in terms of investing to improve productivity. In line with the Gillard mob’s view of the economy, production is a given and the only issue is how do we redistribute it between our various interest groups to ensure we continue in office .”

  30. The MDB buyback debacle will go down in political history as a monumental fail, along with the unnecessary and expensive desal plants.

    All based on a theory that humans are altering the temperature of the planet and the long Australian drought was unnatural….and here for ever more.

    Pure folly.

  31. ‘Are Abbott’s continuous string of lies, including those on climate and the Carbon Price, but also on many other matters as well, not serious?’

    Politicians are pathetic and Abbott is a dill at times, but hopefully the next president of the Liberal Part should set him right.

  32. ‘The bottom line is that if your eye cannot distinguish any underlying trend – no amount of statistics will ever convince you otherwise. There has been evidence of past warming from the beginning of the 1970s until about 1995. However since then the data clearly show us that temperatures have since remained static.’

    Clive Best on the Met Office Statistics

  33. What gets me about Labor is how they say one thing in Opposition but do something different in govt.

    I remember that Labor proclaimed that Costello wasted the mining boom by spending on middle class welfare and tax cuts. I do not totally agree with these criticisms because Costello actually saved $50B in his last three budgets.

    So what does Labor do now in office with a bigger mining boom than Costello had?? Well they are spending the money on tax cuts and welfare.

    Labor has not saved one cent of the mining boom but has wasted the lot. They have not put one cent into the Future Fund or any of the other funds that Costello started up like the Education Endowment Fund but have spent the proceeds of the boom.

  34. “Labor has not saved one cent of the mining boom but has wasted the lot. They have not put one cent into the Future Fund or any of the other funds that Costello started up like the Education Endowment Fund but have spent the proceeds of the boom.”

    And now when the shit hits the fan for them they Blame the Abbott, Abbott, Abbott!
    Leftist bloggers here are just like The Age…into role reversal…

    “The Gillard Government stuffs up in some way. The Opposition naturally points this out. But The Age, instead of concentrating on the stuff up – which is the real story – focuses on a critique of Tony Abbott’s position.”

    Case in question…

    On Wednesday, acting on behalf of Victoria Police, NSW Police raided Mr Thomson’s house and office on the NSW Central Coast. Currently Victoria Police is investigating whether Craig Thomson committed a criminal offence when national secretary of the Health Services Union. Already Fair Work Australia has made findings against Thomson and he currently faces civil charges. It remains to be determined whether or not Thomson will also face criminal charges.

    On Thursday, believe it or not, The Age gave Craig Thomson’s lawyer Chris McArdle the Page One lead with a heading titled: “Thomson lawyer slams Abbott ‘innuendo’”. There was a large photo of Mr Thomson along with a photo of Mr McArdle. McArdle was quoted – in large type – as declaring:

    We will not tolerate our client being condemned by innuendo or ageing student politicians mouthing off…Our client is an innocent man.

    Ageing whisperers?

  35. Straight from the horses mouth, Abbott was lying through his teeth during the last election and was selling his arse to win power, saying anything but not planning to keep to a single promise.

    Coalition would have held early election

    Yet to Abbott excusers and boot lickers it’s Gillard who lied and should be thrown out.

    It also begs the question that Abbott will say and do anything to win power now no matter how dishonest that is and dishonourable he will be on winning.

    And Hockey condemning the middle class welfare he’s now defending.

    “The entitlements bestowed on tens of millions of people by successive governments, fuelled by short-term electoral cycles and the politics of outbidding your opponents are, in essence, undermining our ability to ensure democracy, fair representation and economic sustainability for future generations… The age of unlimited and unfunded entitlement to government services and income support is over. It’s as over in Greece as it is in Italy, in Spain, and in the USA.”

    Can’t keep a consistent point or lie straight in bed this mob of Liberals.

  36. Umm, reverse thrusters and gentle on the brakes, which is how they stop on normal runways except they use more breaks.

    Have a look at videos of ice landings and see how much slush, snow and ice is being thrown forward of the plane to see reverse thrust in action.

  37. ‘Reasonable assumption’, eg its the way jets stop. Yes they have wheel breaks but if that was all Botany Bay would be a graveyard.

  38. Straight from the horses mouth, Abbott was lying through his teeth during the last election and was selling his arse to win power, saying anything but not planning to keep to a single promise.”

    O.K. what was the lie Abbott told???

  39. The Liberals are liars, right down to the name of the party.

    Liberal, adjective: Open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

    Plug “liberal” into Opposite Words utility, and you get:

    conservative

  40. Cuppa

    In the U.S. liberals are definitely liars…heh heh. Here in Australia Liberals have Labor’s Juliar who leads by example… Before “her/she” Beatty legalised lying for politicians in Queensland which puts “the Bjelke Peterson gerrymander into perspective, especially when history tells us that Labor set it up in the first place…

    Bwa hahahahaha and another one for Halloween good measure!

    Bwa hahahahaha

  41. Yeah you know we support these Liberal pollies because they’re better and aren’t in it for their own self interest….. bullshit.

  42. Straight from the horses mouth, Abbott was lying through his teeth during the last election and was selling his arse to win power, saying anything but not planning to keep to a single promise.”

    What was the lie Abbott told during the last election??

  43. Did Abbott open his mouth during the election campaign?

    Then he lied.

    You, you rightards, I don’t believe anything you say. Liberal supporters always don’t tell the truth and I would never trust anything they say.

    There did it for you.

  44. Did Abbott open his mouth during the election campaign?

    Then he lied.”

    I would be interested to know what lie Abbott told. What was it??

  45. Well the alleged lie is something about this topic

    Coalition would have held early election

    I am wondering what the lie was about an early election???

  46. How many lies do want, the ones to the Indies, the ones to two of his own members or calling a legitimate government illegitimate, which is rich coming from a man who supported and covered up lies for Australia going to an illegitimate war.

    Abbott’s crass logic: trash the Parliament in order save it

    Abbott lied in Tasmania, lied about Whyalla, lied about the carbon price, lied about the NBN and lies about just about everything else, but just as bad he encourages his shadow cabinet to lie, like Joyce, Turnbull and Hockey for starters.

    He is one great living lie.

  47. The alleged lie is something about an early election. You linked to something Julie Bishop just said.

    I am wondering what the lie was. What lie were you referring to???

  48. Neil wins points for persistence.

    In European news, it appears they are about start printing money (QE) to avoid the Japanese disease.

    A deflationary spiral is the worst possible outcome.

  49. Neil the person who continuously accuses Labor supporters of being liars, the Labor party of lying and doesn’t trust “you” lot demanding to be shown a self evident lie by Abbott.

    It is not self evident to me. In your link Julie Bishop said Abbott would have gone to an early election if Windsor/ Oakshott has sided with Abbott at the 2010 election.

    What is the lie?? Did Abbott tell Windsor he would not have gone to an early election??

    You posted the link and wanted to prove a point. What is the lie??

  50. “Neil wins points for persistence”……. f* neil, he’s just trolling….. neil dosnt give two hoots about the truth concerning Abbortt…. neil is a liar, liar pants on fire ;)
    Neil tell us something new or you risk being even more boring than you already are *YAWN*

  51. Does Abbott lie Neil?”

    You have just done what all leftoids do. You divert the topic.

    At this post you said Abbott told a lie

    http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/cafe-talk-xii/#comment-114064

    I just want to know what the lie was. Julie Bishop said in your link

    Senior Liberal Bronwyn Bishop says the coalition would have called an early election had it won government after the 2010 election.”

    O.K. at the moment I do not get it. What is this lie that Abbott told??. Please no more pictures just answer the question.

  52. “… just answer the question.”

    This is rich, demanding when you so often refuse to answer the question and throw innuendos and aspersion based on nothing, then throw in strawmen instead of answering.

    Is Abbott a liar or isn’t he?

  53. “Is Abbott a liar or isn’t he?”

    You are diverting the topic. But it looks like Abbott may have lied about this issue.

    But Abbott did not win the 2010 election so we will never know. You know you actually have to win an election and then go against what you have said to have told a lie.

    Abbott did not win the election so no lie was told. What Julie Bishop said they would have done may never have happened.

    But we do know who did lie. Julia Gillard. She shook hands, verbally agreed and signed a written document with Andrew Wilkie to get his support. Then she betrayed him.

    But lets talk about AbbottAbbottAbbot.

    Are there any other ways to break an agreement that Gillard missed???

  54. Möbius Ecko

    See told you. The person who always diverts when it comes to Abbott litany of lies does a projection. So predicable.

    Then in its next ‘comment’ the troll did some more projection!

    You are diverting the topic.

  55. Cuppa

    We were talking about what Abbott may or may not have done if he won the 2010 election about going to an early election.

    Since he did not win the 2010 election no lies were told.

  56. neil (in lower case ;) ) ….you seem upset neil…… you can leave if you like….. but that would probably go against your job description ( or *cell* code ;) ),
    neil what part of sydney you from cobba, only ask in the interest of polite convo…. not trying to work out your demographic ;) …. though your comments do seem to change demographics,… guess thats just due to a change in shift(s)
    Will the real neil please stand……….. down :D

  57. Since he did not win the 2010 election no lies were told.”

    This is actually an excellent point that I made.

    You actually have to be in govt to tell the lie that Abbott was accused of.

    But lets focus on the Opposition. You know the people not in govt.

    The fact that Gillard lied to win govt does not matter to you people.

  58. Does Abbott lie Neil?”

    Lets wait until Abbott if/when wins govt. I cannot understand why Labor supporters focus on the people not in govt so much.

    Labor has just cut $5B from the military. Our 14,000 asylum seeker places are now being taken by people who have $10,000. Bugger the refugees who have no money.

    Swan is going to run another budget deficit during the biggest mining boom in Australian history. He is spending mining boom money on tax cuts and welfare. It is now gone forever.

    But lets focus on the Opposition

  59. Abbott said if the Coalition become the government we will do this or that, but as he failed in that attempt…then he can’t have lied.

    Joolya on the other hand lies like a pig in mud.

  60. Neil the new troll…..same diatribe, same ‘lament’ …….. neil the transparent…..same, same, same….. neil the ‘unrool’… unreal neil…. oh, did mention *same* neil…….
    How many *neils* have been here…… yup, neil, you just another *one* SAME as the other *ones* ….. at the very least neil, you have provided us with a *vision* of how not to be…… as per ;)

  61. “Joolya on the other hand lies like a pig in mud”….. you and your one liners El Gordo… (did I mention SAME) :lol:

  62. nill said, “But lets focus on the Opposition”…… so your *finaly* get’n what this blogs aboot, jimmy…umm, neil…… oh, but thats why your here…… ;)

  63. Neil

    Tony Abbots exact words “”I want to form, if at all possible, stable and competent government that won’t require the country to go back to the polls any time before August of 2013.”

    He lied to the independents as he had a full intention of not letting the minority government run its full term even if he was selected as PM. He has totally vindicated the decision of the independents in who they selected.

    It also proves the hypocrisy of his ridiculous attempts on a dizzingly regularity in trying to censure and remove the currently democratically elected government which comprises independents. These independents were elected just like Tony Abbott. how about we have censure motions to remove Tony Abbott as Opposition leader because one of their MPs was not available to vote at the meeting. the voters will have a say at the next election and to attempt to place doubt on the legitimacy of the current government, just because you are ideologically opposed is despicable. Ths is democracy

    There is focus on the opposition because this is a democracy and as such, focus should be on both sides of politics as the opposition are also paid for and subsidised by tax payers, so therefore should be scruitinsed just as much as the government. The opposition also votes on legislation and represents electorates. The opposition are the government in waiting. The opposition enables policy. The opposition puts forward bills.

    Having said that Julia Gillard betrayed Mr Windsor and that is just as unforgiveable in my opinion.

    It seems the words of our politicans mean absolutely nothing, with lobbying groups and greed overtaking vision and integrity. Non Core promises is the catch cry. get elected and then change the rules. Just like the LNP in QLD, tell massive lies to get elected and then renege when you win office. get a huge majority and simply change the rules because you can. Time for a real clean up. Sadly both the ALP and the LNP side together when it siuts them to ensure pay rises, immunity, allowances etc etc. The only true politicians are the independents yet they are treated with contempt by both the ALP and the LNP as it interrupts this cosy little duopoly masquerading as democracy that they currently hold.

    We complain about collusion within Coles and Woolies but remain blind to the collusion in our political arena.

    While the ALP and the LNP are ideologically opposed in a few areas, they are basically the same political animal from my observations. The ALP intrduces a new tax. The LNP introduces a new levy. Same thing different name. They both join forces to rush through pay rises and allowances for politicians at a blinding pace. Their salaries are becoming obscene when you consider all the allowances and benefits they also obtain. Politicians from years ago would be turning in their graves at how it is now ooperating. Politicians are public servants yet they remain the only public servants not have been slashed and burnt to save costs. A sad reflection on their integrity.

  64. On how a few lefties couldn’t prove Abbott lied!

    NEIL I am wondering what the lie was. What lie were you referring to???
    ME Look at moi

    NEIL I just want to know what the lie was.
    ME Look at pictures

    NEIL I would be interested to know what lie Abbott told. What was it??
    LOVO Look at propaganda from leftard site, Look at bullshit from leftard site and again for good measure

    NEIL I am wondering what the lie was about an early election???
    ME crass logic from pinko punch

    eg Neil wins points for persistence.
    LOVO f* neil….. neil dosnt give two hoots about the truth concerning Abbortt…. neil is a liar, liar pants on fire

    ME Look at moi, pictures
    Cuppa Look at leftard propaganda and some cut and paste vid

    NEIL We were talking about what Abbott may or may not have done if he won the 2010 election about going to an early election. Since he did not win the 2010 election no lies were told.

    LOVO Paranoia….you can leave if you like….. but that would probably go against your job description ( or *cell* code….

    eg Joolya on the other hand lies like a pig in mud.
    Cuppa refers to jabba the hut who clearly can’t do hard yards himself!

  65. Shaneinqld

    Tony Abbott’s exact words are not proof that he’s lied or that he did not intend to run full term if elected. What has happened here is that Phillip Coorey wrote in SMH that Julie Bishop revealed that Abbott would have called another election had he been able to form government.

    “Having said that Julia Gillard betrayed Mr Windsor”…surely you mean the member for Denison? Windsor betrays himself on a daily basis and does not need Juliars assistance in this matter!

    The real issue here is that the most inept PM ever has presided over the worst Australian government in history and the best that its supporters can do is bag the opposition….Kinda says it all doesn’t it!

  66. I finally get access to some WiFi here in America so I log in and what’s the first thing I see? I see that Tony Abbott has been caught out lying.

    Has nothing changed?

  67. The real issue here is that the most inept PM ever has presided over the worst Australian government in history and the best that its supporters can do is bag the opposition…”

    The MYEFO has just come out. How long did Swans forecast last?? One of their last budget forecasts was for a $22B budget deficit. It ended up being $44B. Double what was forecast. Labor has just stripped $5B from the military. Thomsons house was just raided by police. Two files from Gillards past have gone missing. One was lodged with the WA govt. Now missing.

    But lets talk about Abbott

  68. Brilliantly said shane.

    The real issue is what Treeman says is meaningless when the actual achievements of both the Rudd and Gillard governments are tabled. They are impressive in anyone’s book, except in the blind and narrow minded Liberal supporters’ book who believe Abbott, the worst and most negative lying opposition leader in our history, is great.

    Says it all really.

  69. Möbius, America is a dangerous place. I have a cracked rib and bronchitis, but apart from that a great time is being had.

    Will be back home on Tuesday.

  70. Everything you have stated Neil has been talked about in detail, splashed across the media and interwebs everywhere, but Abbott’s failures both in the past and as a leader are glossed over, and you are one of those who do the glossing over.

    It is right to scrutinise Abbott just as much as Gillard, and don’t give us the nonsense about him being the opposition so above scrutiny and criticism. That’s a cop out bull and you need go back no further than Howard’s last term to prove that.

    Howard and his government continuously attacked Rudd by stating that he and the Labor opposition should be held to the highest account because they were the potential next government of Australia and Rudd the next PM. I think it was Howard, but it may have been someone else in government, said that in fact the opposition should be held to a higher account because the government was in power and everyone could see their credibility and achievements whereas the opposition hid behind not being in government and that wasn’t an excuse.

    So now we have a Liberal opposition and not only do they not have to be held to account according to their rabid supporters they have every right to hide behind being an opposition and not a potential government, we are not allowed to put them in spotlight.

    Crap.

    It is also proven by the fact that when they lost the election to Rudd for the first year or so the opposition called themselves the alternate government and not the opposition, as they went about demanding, not asking or working in bipartitely, but outright demanding, the government take up their half baked policies, economic policies by the way that would have produced as much if not more debt than Labor’s and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs as we went into recession.

    It is right and fair Abbott is scrutinised as the potential leader of this country and as so many are discovering when even the smallest scrutiny is placed on him he’s not a leader’s arsehole.

  71. A nightmare, hopefully Australia won’t have to suffer, Abbott on a world stage:

    “You shudder to think of him as prime minister at a G20 summit: a breezy “Ve vill ask ze questions” for Angela Merkel, a Rastus joke for the President of the United States, a Pearl Harbour quip for the Prime Minister of Japan. With abbotting, anything’s possible.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/just-another-slip-of-the-abbott-20121026-28ax4.html#ixzz2ARxtStwQ

  72. ‘we are not allowed to put them in spotlight.’

    Go for it, won’t make any difference to the election results.

  73. “The real issue is what Treeman says is meaningless when the actual achievements of both the Rudd and Gillard governments are tabled.”

    Name some please ME…

    “policies by the way that would have produced as much if not more debt than Labor’s and cost hundreds of thousands of jobs as we went into recession.”
    absolute crap, pure speculation at best.

    “It is right and fair Abbott is scrutinised as the potential leader of this country and as so many are discovering when even the smallest scrutiny is placed on him he’s not a leader’s arsehole”

    Love your language ME. leading from the rear as always….

  74. Hilarious….Julia Gillard’s Search for Ethics…http://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2012/10/julia-gillards-search-for-ethics.html

    “When a leader is associated with such a work I don’t know if protocol allows you to have a favourite bit. I’ll have to enquire from a regime like North Korea as we head down that path. But if we are allowed to treasure a little piece of a Dear Leader’s Little Puce Book more than the other equally good bits, this would be my favourite. I’ve always felt that we’d underdone incommensurability in our official tomes.

    http://michaelsmithnews.typepad.com/.a/6a0177444b0c2e970d017c32cf0b10970b-pi

    “No wonder John McTernan and the great-file-emptier found each other!”

  75. Hewson:
    “….he’s obviously very bright, but he’s very cunning, and I think that cunningness shows.

    Howard was politically cunning and astute, Abbott is a gormless bully who stumbles from one brain fart to the next.

    Carlton:
    “I take the opposite view, that Abbott is not very bright at all, that he stupidly shoves both feet in his mouth before the brain is in gear.”

  76. You did read that article in full el gordo, or did you as usual ignore the bits that didn’t fit in with your troll, and make no bones about it that’s what you’re doing, trolling?

  77. The white paper being handed down tomorrow should give the PM a boost in the polls and there will be nothing for the Opposition to disagree with.

  78. I’m with Mike Carlton,

    Carlton:
    “I take the opposite view, that Abbott is not very bright at all, that he stupidly shoves both feet in his mouth before the brain is in gear.”

    Abbott was born with a silver foot in his mouth!

  79. Treeman

    A lis is a lie. A Lie is when you say something as in words and it is not true. A lie is a lie. Your blindness shows your inability to see fault on both sides of politics so you are just as worse as those on this site you criticise for doing the exact same thing.

    Obviously your hatred for independents is also evident with your criticism of Mr Windsor. It is people like yourself that breed dictatorship and extremism when you fail to see fault in both sides of politics.

  80. Treeman

    So you think you have the right to bag the government but no on has the right to bag the opposition. It is called political allegiance, something you have bucket loads of yourself only it is for the LNP.

    As I pointed out the opposition are paid by taxpayers just like the government and should face exactly the same scruitiny. Failure to do so is a travesty for democracy. But apparently you cant see that point.

    There are sites supporting supporting the ALP ( like this site) and sites supporting the LNP, what i do find is that the right wing sites tend to limit the number of critical responses compared to left wing sites and that is not heresay it is my own experience. Censorship by the right is far more draconian.
    I also find myself being attacked far worse on right wing sites than left wing sites even though I see good and bad in both.

    I can criticise both and do so regularly.

  81. The trolls have gone quiet for a few minutes. Must’ve snuck out the back for a smoke. Naughty, naughty, turfers, you’ll get your pay docked. Now, get back to your keyboards and keep pumping out the comments!

  82. I understand your angst shane, sitting on the fence is an invidious position, but I’m happy to sit with you in this run down cafe… a couple of trolls enjoying the glorious weather.

  83. WTF el gordo?

    Are you calling shane a troll? Please don’t say that is what you meant?

    Run down cafe? What do you base that on?

  84. ‘Run down cafe? What do you base that on?’

    I base it on my favourite cafe in town, called the Hub, a run down old place with leafy courtyard. No offence meant.

  85. el gordo
    a run down cafe on the boulevarde of broken dreams.

    shane
    fence sitters and swinging voters have shared attributes, and yes a lie is a lie but the only political party to have legalised lying is Labor and yes it happened in Queensland. Bagging the opposition is a bit like tying up someone with no hands but bagging the government is a bit different, they’re the ones out there doing it!

    “Obviously your hatred for independents is also evident with your criticism of Mr Windsor. It is people like yourself that breed dictatorship and extremism when you fail to see fault in both sides of politics.”

    Three cheers for shane…you win the judge of character award for today! Take a trip down new England way and put your ear to the ground before you defend Windsor!

  86. On an entirely different matter….

    ‘THE tiny nation of Nauru is demanding Australia pay up to $90 million over five years in special payments as “insurance” against the cost of housing up to 1500 asylum seekers.

    ‘A spokesman for the government of the Pacific island nation of fewer than 10,000 people said the $3000-per-migrant payment was being introduced to help pay for the cost of running the offshore processing centre, which currently has 383 detainees.’

    Lewis and Marszalek in the Daily Telegraph

  87. miglo
    Shane Rattenbury for the greens will now negotiate.
    it is expected that he will side with labor but you never know.

    new members, guilia jones, and wall for liberals
    yvette berry, new and mick gentlemen returns for labor

  88. ‘A troll Shane is not.’

    Obviously not, but what about me?

    Not that it matters…CU says you are only humouring me.

  89. ‘The Labor Party has exploded into open warfare at the highest levels following the defeat of the senior cabinet minister Penny Wong to the number one Senate ticket in favour of one of the lesser known faceless men who helped install Julia Gillard to the Prime Ministership in 2010.

    ‘Right-faction powerbroker Don Farrell defeated Senator Wong in a ballot today by 112 votes to 83 with the Finance Minister to be listed second on the South Australian Senate ballot paper at the next federal election.

    ‘Senior Labor frontbencher and left-faction figure Anthony Albanese let fly today at ‘‘union powerbrokers’’ saying Labor’s ongoing factional wars were evidence of a broken internal system.’

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/wong-senate-snub-risks-factional-flareup-20121027-28c4d.html#ixzz2AToChYDv

  90. ‘On the credit side, Obama has resisted strident demands to bomb Iran. He has eased America out of Iraq and is withdrawing from Afghanistan. He played a critical role in preventing financial meltdown after the 2008 banking crisis with his fiscal stimulus programme, which Republicans are foolish enough to deride.

    ‘The President can justly tell Americans: ‘I stopped things from getting worse.’

    ‘But four years down the track, that line no longer sounds good enough. It is both a huge virtue and weakness of the American people that they are not fatalists. They really believe it is possible to make things better.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2223828/The-huge-divide-Obama-Romneys-ideology-makes-election-campaign-divisive-recent-memory.html#ixzz2ATrldpcj
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  91. Miglo
    in brindabellao, bresnan, green, had 4 more votes than cody, labor, so if it had gone the other way, cody may have come close to gain 5th seat in brindabella, giving labor 9 seats and win. it will be interesting to see if cody goes for a recount.

  92. Wouldn’t be surprised if this report or parts of it have been sourced here by some or in the denialist sites they source.

    Koch Brothers Produce Counterfeit Climate Report to Deceive Congress

    Look behind those denialist sites and their authors and you will inevitably find links to Heartland which links to the Koch Brothers which links to big energy.

    No conspiracy, just the reality.

  93. El gordo, I refuse to answer that question for fear of incrimination.

    Sue, close call. Thanks for the update.

    Lots of voting booths set up in shopping centres over here and long lines of people waiting to vote, or whatever it is they are doing. Quite a large number of African Americans in the queue. Significant, yes?

  94. ‘Why must I be haunted like this?’

    The fat ones are everywhere…

    ————-

    This looks like a big one Lovo and what a relief it has nothing to do with global warming.

  95. Vegas Migs, you lucky B. ….. while your there you might care to donate to a political cause…. like these fella’s:-
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20008689

    Skinny said, “This looks like a big one Lovo and what a relief it has nothing to do with global warming”….. how so?????? could you provide a graph to prove that…:lol:
    Seriously Skinny El Gordo, funny how the weather is going to be ‘the decider’ in this ‘debate’……… Obi ‘one’ voted early, and I presume many demo’s followed….. then storm hits and electronic voting goes *phwitzz*, could be a pre-cursor to the convo on CC…… which is what is happening skinny guts…… (Tacky-o El Gordo’s fast fraud joint) …. :D

  96. “This looks like a big one Lovo and what a relief it has nothing to do with global warming.”

    How do you know that?

    Another single paragraph inane comment made as a troll.

  97. ‘How do you know that?’

    Its a jet stream thingy, more in line with global cooling. I’m more than happy to hear other opinions.

  98. Lovo has the impression that its a precursor to the CC catastrophe… unprecedented. That’s fantastic, but misguided.

  99. Meteorologists are not making the connection between this hurricane and global warming, but the warminista activists are.

    ‘In a scenario that’s sort of a mirror image of making hay while the sun shines, they are trying to use the widespread media attention surrounding the storm to score points on global warming. Without any scientific support, they’re claiming — somewhat recklessly — that “super-heated seas” are contributing to the storm’s intensity.

    ‘Ocean temperatures along the mid-Atlantic coast are currently more than 2 degrees above the long-term historic average, the second-warmest on record. Some recent studies also suggest that warmer air and ocean temperatures will continue to make tropical storms worse in coming decades.’

  100. Can you please link to the scientists who are proponents of climate change who are making the link?

  101. So now it’s warming causing the hurricane whereas you just stated it was more in line with global cooling. Isn’t actually more in line with global warming?

  102. Only activists are making the connection, scientists know better.

    Statement by Brad Johnson, campaign manager of Forecast the Facts and ClimateSilence.org:

    “If the candidates won’t listen to the voters demanding they break their climate silence, maybe they will listen to Mother Nature’s October Surprise. We know the candidates will be asked about Hurricane Sandy, and will express their sympathy with those affected. They will rightly applaud the first responders, the compassion of neighbors, and the strength and resolve of the American people. But what their role as national leaders demands that they also do is explain that Hurricane Sandy is a true Frankenstorm, a monster created by man tampering with nature with oil, coal, and gas pollution.”

  103. Without any scientific support, they’re claiming — somewhat recklessly — that “super-heated seas” are contributing to the storm’s intensity.

    You’re an idiot.

  104. ‘A troll Shane is not.’

    Obviously not, but what about me?

    When you repeat Murdoch, IPA or LNP talking points, you are a troll.

    When you repeat climate talking points from Watts, you are a moron.

  105. From LOVO’s link on the jetstream doing a blocking action.

    Can you please explain or point out where global cooling comes into it? (my bold)

    -Sandy will ride the unusually warm waters of the Gulf Stream on her path toward the East Coast. This will keep moisture and energy flowing into Sandy from below, and maintain the possibility of rapid, unexpected intensification.

    -As Sandy emerges from the tropics, she will interact with the “northern stream” of westerlies. This transition to “extra tropical” status will inject new energy from the mid-latitude jet stream into Sandy.

    -This will allow Sandy to morph into a tropical-mid latitude “hybrid” storm upon impact…to grow in size, and potentially spread her damaging wind field over a larger area.

    Those who directly blame this single storm on global warming are wrong. No single weather event no matter how unusual or out of the norm can be.

    What the modelling shows and what the climate scientists are contending is that global warming will cause an increase in abnormal weather events globally, they will occur more often, be more severe, have greater fluctuations between extremes and increase in frequency. All of which is happening.

  106. “What the modelling shows and what the climate scientists are contending is that global warming will cause an increase in abnormal weather events globally, they will occur more often, be more severe, have greater fluctuations between extremes and increase in frequency. All of which is happening”

    Bullshit….it is not happening at all and it’s been very well documented.

  107. No increase in extreme weather. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704422204576130300992126630.html
    “In the climate models, the extremes get more extreme as we move into a doubled CO2 world in 100 years,” atmospheric scientist Gilbert Compo, one of the researchers on the project, tells me from his office at the University of Colorado, Boulder. “So we were surprised that none of the three major indices of climate variability that we used show a trend of increased circulation going back to 1871.”

  108. No increase in climate extremes:
    http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=l446053m40t06j43&size=largest
    “We can show that also this recent anthropogenic normal period shows no widening of the PDF (probability density function) compared to the preceding ones.”

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2012/08/08/icy-relations-extreme-weather-question-drives-wedge-between-climate-scientists/
    “Last year, after Al Gore said in a speech that climate change was responsible for various extreme weather events around the globe, he got spanked by Oxford climate scientist Myles Allen, who wrote a column in the Guardian entitled, “Al Gore is doing a disservice by overplaying the link between climate change and the weather……John Nielsen-Gammon, the Texas State Climatologist and a professor of Atmospheric Sciences at Texas A&M writes:
    First, one loses the ability to specify odds objectively if the threshold for the extreme event is not chosen prior to the actual event itself. Second, purely according to statistics, most actual extreme events that end up getting studied will be events whose odds have increased — the events whose odds have decreased won’t be happening as frequently!

    Mobius, you have no idea of the thresholds or the odds so your statements above are utterly ridiculous!

  109. “When you repeat climate talking points from Watts, you are a moron.”

    Which got me thinking about Treeman’s comment towards the end of Cafe Talk XII a couple of days ago, quoting Watts:

    “After all of the news about a minimum record ice extent last month, this is interesting. As we know when water loses its ice cover, it allows a lot of heat to radiate into space as LWIR. many predictied that as a result of the extra open ocean surface, we see a very fast refreeze in the Arctic. It appears they were right. In fact, this is the fastest monthly scale refreeze rate in the NSIDC satellite record going back to 1979″.

    Whilst this is true in a trivial sense, what Watts omitted to say was that the “rebound” was to the 2nd lowest level of ice cover on record.

    Watts supposed reason for this amazing rebound (accelerated radiative loss due to decreased ice cover) is itself amazing, and belies a fundamental lack of knowledge of some pretty basic physics.

    What Watts totally glossed over of course was the potentially dire consequences of the positive feedback from the loss of ice cover on the Earth’s albedo. A sort of “hey, look over there” moment, except there was nothing to look at.

    But Watts remains the go-to-guy when our denialist friends seek to score debating points. Got me beat.

  110. “Bullshit….it is not happening at all and it’s been very well documented.”

    From the World Met Office brochure “Weather Extremes in a Changing Climate”

    Devastating climate and weather-related events recorded in recent years have
    captured the interest of the general public, governments, and media. This brochure
    provides a sample of extreme events for the past decade (2001–2010). Some of these events compared with — or exceeded in intensity, duration or geographical extent— the most significant historical events

    With only 100 odd years of data scientists are reluctant to buy into this because they are bound by the rules of statistics, witness the media’s total misunderstanding of the term “statistically significant” at the height of the UK Met office email “scandal”.

    But the great unwashed have no interest in such detail.

    You might win this on statistical technicalities Treeman (which you may or may not understand yourself) but I have a perception (a worrying one) that things are ‘not as they used to be’.

    I myself have moved to higher ground.

  111. Apart from the CC ‘debate’, It occurred to me that with the Mega Perfect Storm Hurricane Sandy threatening the entire East Coast, how will that impact the voter turnout in the heavily populated metro areas? If there are the power outages as predicted, voters may be unable to get to the polling stations. Those that have followed Obama’s lead and voted early may be the ‘deciders’ in this election.

  112. “Sometimes ideology masks as stupidity.”

    It seems so Silkworm.

    Treeman is obviously an intelligent person, but ideology has him in thrall.

  113. Treeman seems the kind who makes out as though they understand by bluster and posturing, but like 99% of the rest of the population doesn’t understand jack shit on climate.

    It’s a right wing ploy of shout down anything that doesn’t fit in with their ideological view of the world.

    NOAA talking about an increase in climate extremes in the US.
    Global Climate Change Indicators

    Columbia University paper on the increase of climate extremes.

    And the index that measures climate extremes show they are on the rise. U.S. Climate Extremes Index

    …and I could post dozens if not more links on papers and articles on the increase of climate extremes and frequency of those extremes.

    I don’t know why I bother as Treeman will just ignore he science and bluster again until the next UK Met Office type scam comes along for him to jump on with both feet.

  114. …… and what about the ‘undecided’ voters… those that are not only undecided about which Party but also undecided about CC…. Sandy could play a pivotal role in this!

  115. Mangrove

    You suggest you’ve moved to higher ground but your link to the WMO media circus brochure suggests you’re floundering with the rest of the alarmists here… The Brochure timeframe ends at 2010, reflects on climate predictions and states that Scientists are still studying the quantitative links between these events and climate change.” Still studying for the WMO Media circus is groupspeak for we haven’t been able to prove a link between warming and climate extremes because theyr’es been no warming and no increase in extreme events.

    Furthermore in agreeing the silly silkworm’s “ ideology masks as stupidity.” comments, you lump yourself with those here who blindly follow the alarmist meme which in itself is an ideology.

    Sometimes the recognition of intelligence is no excuse for ones own stupidity.

  116. Mobius
    Your NOAA Global Climate Change Indicator information leaves off the inconvenient bits…

    Global temps and CO2 ends 2010
    US temps ends 2009
    Sea level ends 2005
    Upper ocean heat ends 2009
    Northern hemisphere snow ends 08
    Glacier volume shrinking ends 2005
    The CEI graph does not include tropical cyclones.

    As this is a recent document there is only one reason these inconvenient bits have been left out….the recent observations further damage the conclusions upon which so much policy has been written.

  117. Those that have followed Obama’s lead and voted early may be the ‘deciders’ in this election.

    Yes, in this case, global warming may work to the political advantage of the progressives.

  118. “Still studying for the WMO Media circus is groupspeak for we haven’t been able to prove a link between warming and climate extremes because theyr’es been no warming and no increase in extreme events.”

    I think I might’ve been somewhat precipitate in thinking you were an intelligent person. Ideology is no excuse for that kind of statement.

    Apologies all round folks.

  119. I want to understand this from Treeman,

    Information from blogs and right wing media are credible even if they are offered by non-specialists and don’t give any or only part scientific detail.

    Information from higher educational centres and organisations whose job is climate, staffed by climate scientists is not credible.

    That’s it in a nutshell.

    More links for you to ingore. And if you can’t see where you failed in our lame attempt at picking holes in the couple of year old NOAA data then why should anyone bother, your mind is ideologically closed and that’s it as far as you are concerned.

    Extreme Weather Events Map

    State of the Climate Global Analysis 2011
    State of the Climate Global Analysis 2012

    You only have to do superficial search to find more recent data, even from NOAA.

    And if a newspaper can be quoted as proof by one person then I will use one: Wild weather worsening due to climate change, IPCC confirms

    The only uncertainty in the increase of extreme weather events due to climate change are tornadoes. Tons of stuff on that if you want to look for, much way beyond me.

  120. Mobius

    The Hansen et al Columbia University paper to which you linked above concludes nothing. It was written as an attempt to address questions raised about an earlier paper and then used by Hansen to make outlandish OpEd claims in the US media which have been soundly debunked.

    Dr Martin Hoerling at NOAA prepared a response to Hansen’s OpEd in the NY Times and it has been posted in its entirety here:http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/08/13/martin-hoerling-on-james-hansens-game-over-thinking/

    “The claim in the Hansen NYT piece that the Midwest would be a dustbowl in coming decades thus runs contrary to peer reviewed literature and recent assessments by the U.S. Global Research Program that emerged from the synthesis of current understanding by an expert team of scientists.”

    Hansen is flaky at best which is reflected in bullshit statements like this “The global warming signal is now louder than the noise of random weather…”

    James Hansen has been utterly discredited and it does you no favour to link to anything he’s written. Here are some of his predictions:

    In 1982…If there were slow growth in the use of hydrocarbon fuels, the world in the middle of the next century would be as warm as it was 125,000 years ago, when lions, elephants and other tropical animals roamed a balmy southern England.
    Pursuing present plans for coal and oil, Hansen found, the climate in the middle of the 21st century “would approach the warmth of the age of the dinosaurs”

    In 1986…Hansen said the average U.S. temperature had risen from one to two degrees since 1958 and is predicted to increase an additional 3 or 4 degrees sometime between 2010 and 2020.

    Still in 1986….“Within 15 years,” said Goddard Space Flight Honcho James Hansen, “global temperatures will rise to a level which hasn’t existed on earth for 100,000 years”.

    In 1989…“By the year 2050 we’re going to have tremendous climate changes, far outside what man has ever experienced” said James Hansen, Director of NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York City. Computer models by Hansen and others suggest that by the middle of the next century earth’s average temperature may rise 4 to 9 degrees Fahrenheit, possibly altering storm patterns, making crops fail, and raising sea levels to flood low-lying coastal areas.

  121. Yes Mobius…way beyond you because you haven’t taken the time to get up to speed with the science or the charlatans at the teat milking the government funding for all its worth. A sorry case of denial I suggest.

  122. Teaman, you are troll and insignficant, please leave this site at once for the greater good of all those who wish to use this site as a positive experience….. and besides, my *scrolling* finger is get’n sore. :D

  123. Mobius

    The three links you put up at your last comment prove nothing.. the first lists extreme events in the US with this intro: “The events shown above are examples of four types of extreme weather that scientists say are becoming more frequent and intense because of climate change: extreme heat, drought, wildfires, and heavy precipitation. Individual events cannot be blamed on any single cause.”

    The next two are to data only…

    I see it more the way an expert sees it:
    Roger Pielke, Jr. Professor of environmental studies at the Center for Science and Technology Policy Research at the University of Colorado at Boulder. with appointments as a Research Fellow, Risk Frontiers, Macquarie University; Visiting Senior Fellow, Mackinder Programme, London School of Economics; and Senior Visiting Fellow at the Consortium for Science, Policy and Outcomes of Arizona State University. Also Senior Fellow of The Breakthrough Institute, a progressive think tank.

    “The politicization of climate science is so complete that the lead author of the IPCC’s Working Group II on climate impacts feels comfortable presenting testimony to the US Congress that fundamentally misrepresents what the IPCC has concluded. I am referring to testimony given today by Christopher Field, a professor at Stanford, to the US Senate.

    This is not a particularly nuanced or complex issue. What Field says the IPCC says is blantantly wrong, often 180 degrees wrong. It is one thing to disagree about scientific questions, but it is altogether different to fundamentally misrepresent an IPCC report to the US Congress. Below are five instances in which Field’s testimony today completely and unambiguously misrepresented IPCC findings to the Senate. Field’s testimony is here in PDF.

    1. On the economic costs of disasters:
    Field: “As the US copes with the aftermath of last year’s record-breaking series of 14 billion-dollar climate-related disasters and this year’s massive wildfires and storms, it is critical to understand that the link between climate change and the kinds of extremes that lead to disasters is clear.”

    What the IPCC actually said: “There is medium evidence and high agreement that long-term trends in normalized losses have not been attributed to natural or anthropogenic climate change”
    Field’s assertion that the link between climate change and disasters “is clear,” which he supported with reference to US “billion dollar” economic losses, is in reality scientifically unsupported by the IPCC. Period. (More on the NOAA billion-dollar disasters below.) There is good reason for this — it is what the science says. Why fail to report to Congress the IPCC’s most fundamental finding and indicate something quite the opposite?

    2. On US droughts:
    Field: “The report identified some areas where droughts have become longer and more intense (including southern Europe and West Africa), but others where droughts have become less frequent, less intense, or shorter.”

    What the IPCC actually said: “… in some regions droughts have become less frequent, less intense, or shorter, for example, central North America …”
    Field conveniently neglected in his testimony to mention that one place where droughts have gotten less frequent, less intense or shorter is … the United States. Why did he fail to mention this region, surely of interest to US Senators, but did include Europe and West Africa?

    3. On NOAA’s billion dollar disasters:
    Field: “The US experienced 14 billion-dollar disasters in 2011, a record that far surpasses the previous maximum of 9.”

    What NOAA actually says about its series of “billion dollar” disasters: “Caution should be used in interpreting any trends based on this [data] for a variety of reasons”
    Field says nothing about the serious issues with NOAA’s tabulation. The billion dollar disaster meme is a PR train wreck, not peer reviwed and is counter to the actual science summarized in the IPCC. So why mention it?

    Roger Pielke, Jr.
    I am a professor of environmental studies at the Center for Science and Technology Policy Research at the University of Colorado at Boulder. I also have appointments as a Research Fellow, Risk Frontiers, Macquarie University; Visiting Senior Fellow, Mackinder Programme, London School of Economics; and Senior Visiting Fellow at the Consortium for Science, Policy and Outcomes of Arizona State University. I am also a Senior Fellow of The Breakthrough Institute, a progressive think tank.
    http://rogerpielkejr.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/ipcc-lead-author-misleads-us-congress.html

  124. LOVO…too bad, i’m just getting started…it’s the price you pay for regurgitating alarmist propaganda!
    …this from a reformed environmentalist….. bwwaahhaaa….. I’m not paying any price from you f*wit…… I mostly scroll you.. f*wit….. as in.. I dont read what you writes (f*wit)… mainly because you are a proven f*wit….. I notice that your ‘holier than thou’ teaparty blog still lacks comments on most of the posts….whys that Teaman :???: ???? Could it be because no one takes you seriously or is it because your a f*wit….. (or both). ….
    Whisperers please scroll this f*wit, he is beyond our help or redemption.. :lol:

  125. LOVO,

    Perhaps we may be able to prevail upon Migs, when he returns from galavanting around the galaxy, to open a seperate thread for this climate change guff to keep it from ruinin’ other threads? ;)

  126. Lovo

    i had wondered why on the tv news on early voting in the US there always appeared to be long queues. then i read just how difficult the states make the voting experience, forget about identity cards, voter rolls, reduced days for early polling, reduced opening hours for electoral offices etc, it is the length of the ballot papers. each state loads them up with other issues, including “new wording” for proposed state legislation. one voter i read about, even with a sample voting page, took 10 minutes to complete, for another voter it took 30 minutes, when they finally entered the voter booth.
    And this is supposedly the “land of the free” and yet so many obstacles are created to hinder the most basic of democratic rights.

  127. Oh LOVO
    what a twisted spiteful persona you have . This is a site for views to be aired and
    freely discussed without your condescension.You have a foul mouth and a
    closed mind.Time to clean up your act – so much for Freedom of Speech.
    Pack up and move to North Korea , probably places you amongst like minds.

  128. Bacchus, as per request. It was becoming rather tedious. :(

    Note to all… new page for those who want to continue the AGW ‘discussion’.

    (Hope Migs doesn’t mind).

  129. ‘When you repeat Murdoch, IPA or LNP talking points, you are a troll.’

    Blind faith marks you out as an appalling zealot, nevertheless your contribution on troll behaviour is appreciated.

  130. ‘Teaman, you are troll and insignficant, please leave this site at once for the greater good of all those who wish to use this site as a positive experience…’

    Ignore him Treeman, they don’t understand the science and I have much to learn.

  131. ‘…a seperate thread for this climate change guff to keep it from ruinin’ other threads?’

    It works for me at The Daily Trash but I’m laying the groundwork for a scoop, not sure it will work here.

    Then you can all get back to slavishly following the watermelon line and devotional luv of joolya.

  132. And your point is eg.?

    To my understanding Cafe Talk was intended to be a running commentary on daily events not covered by the regular posts. And a chance do discuss the more lighthearted things that go on in our lives.

    It HAS been derailed, and so I took the initiative, in Migs’ absence, of opening a dedicated AGW place for those who want to argue about that subject.

    If you want to continue that discussion about the pros and cons of AGW take it to that place please.

    We aim to please! :D

  133. “And this is supposedly the “land of the free” and yet so many obstacles are created to hinder the most basic of democratic rights.”

    Sue, I wonder if this applies to all states, democrat or republican. It sure makes it hard for the voters.

  134. I think I read somewhere Americans also vote on Tuesdays. I am guessing this means you have to take time off from work to vote.

    Does anyone know if this is true??

  135. Well I did a search but I was more interested in the logistics of voting. Are they allowed to take time off work or do they do it during their lunch hour??

    Sounds like a pain to vote on a working day.

  136. This help?

    ‘Some activists oppose this date on the grounds that it decreases voter turnout because most citizens work on Tuesdays, and advocate making election day a federal holiday or allowing voters to cast their ballots over two or more days. The United Auto Workers union has negotiated making Election Day a holiday for its workers at the U.S. domestic auto manufacturers.
    Many states have implemented early voting, which allows the voters to cast ballots, in many cases up to a month early. Also, all states have some kind of absentee ballot system. The state of Oregon, for example, performs all major elections through postal voting that are sent to voters several weeks before Election Day. Some companies will let their employees come in late or leave early on Election Day to allow them an opportunity to get to their precinct and vote.’

    And yes, it would be a pain to have to vote on a work day. But hey its the world’s greatest democracy.

  137. Neil,

    It’s one thing being too lazy to do your own research, but it’s appalling to then not read the research provided for you. :roll:

    Election Day is a civic holiday in some states, including Delaware, Hawaii, Kentucky, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, West Virginia, and the territory of Puerto Rico. Some other states require that workers be permitted to take time off from employment without loss of pay. California Elections Code Section 14000 provides that employees otherwise unable to vote must be allowed two hours off with pay, at the beginning or end of a shift.

  138. handyrab

    hindering voting seems to be pretty wide spread. rules making it harder for college students to register, rules for volunteers, who promote voter registration, more difficult. just as howard tried to change our election registration process, it appears the conservatives claim all they are trying to do is cut down on voter fraud, but voter fraud is a minute problem.
    after jed bush rigged the results in florida for george, the democrats are aware and challenge a lot of changes through the courts, but loading up the ballot papers from legislative wording to electing local sheriffs is an american thing we do not want here.

  139. It is a strange system, Sue. I reckon Australia has got it pretty right.

    Its compulsory, held on a Saturday, and apart from the sometimes daunting senate paper, a low stress experience. And you get to buy a cake and have a sausage sanger.

    Brilliant! :D

  140. “Ignore him Treeman, they don’t understand the science and I have much to learn.”

    If it’s the science that underpins global warming that you’re curious about EG, I don’t think Treeman could be much help. It’s hard to take anybody who quotes Anthony Watts as a credible source seriously.

    Same goes for economics.

  141. It’s one thing being too lazy to do your own research, but it’s appalling to then not read the research provided for you

    I read that. It still does not address what the majority of the states do. I guess most people vote during their lunch hour.

    The US has 50 states. Your quote listed 9 states and a territory.

  142. ‘It’s hard to take anybody who quotes Anthony Watts as a credible source seriously.’

    I have time for Watts and little time for real scientists like Michael ‘hockey stick’ Mann.

  143. My quote… what!!!

    A chance for a PhD dissertation Neil. Either google (refined search) or go to the States and find out for yourself.

    FMD!!!!!!

  144. Mangrove

    “If it’s the science that underpins global warming that you’re curious about EG, I don’t think Treeman could be much help”

    How can science underpin global warming? Think about it, you’ve just kicked an own goal. Measurement of global warming or lack of it might be used to underpin or challenge the science that suggests a link with increase in atmospheric CO2.

    And you say “it’s hard to take anybody who quotes Anthony Watts as a credible source seriously.”

  145. Looks like a sleepless night ahead for Shamahan trying to figure out how to spin this as a negative for the government ;)

    According to the latest Newspoll survey, taken exclusively for The Australian over the weekend, Labor’s primary vote rose from 33 per cent to 36 per cent over the past three weeks, while the Coalition’s support fell from 45 per cent to 41 per cent. The Greens remained unchanged on 10 per cent.

    Based on preference flows at the last election, Labor and the Coalition are locked at 50-50.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/gillard-government-breaks-even-with-coalition-newspoll/story-fn59niix-1226504914566

  146. I like the idea of having a dedicated AGW thread. That is like having a dungeon for the trolls. I can avoid the trolls simply by not going to that thread.

    So how is this AGW dedicated thread going to work? What if the trolls ignore it and decide to continue their lies on the other threads, just as they are continuing to do on this one? To make this work, shouldn’t we be deleting all AGW posts not on the dedicated AGW thread?

  147. Shock Horror

    Newspoll NOT headline leader in media today, must be because back to 50:50 just like it was 2 polls ago. So the Margie poll was the aberration.

    Happy times for Abbott facing the liberal party room with ratings of -28%. That should encourage the WA Liberals backing Abbott of the east in the wheat deregulation scrap.

  148. Bacchus

    Shamaham has gone for the shot gun approach.

    Misogyny, Thomson, Slipper, Rudd , McKew, yes it is that desperate even the baby bonus gets a mention. Then to wind it up we get Abbott and the baaaaaaaad government with soap opera leadership and mining tax.

    What no carbon tax? Nooooooooooooooooooo

  149. The ABC is now reporting the Australian, and has the newspoll result.

    It just took a little longer than usual as it isn’t the lead article in the Oz and the Tele hasn’t got it. No their big story is NBN to add $5 per year to energy bill. That’s it rip it up. no value there, better to keep with copper and wifi only. The real story is that NSW is trying price gouging.
    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/governments-go-to-war-over-nbn-rollout-costs/story-e6freuy9-1226504917879

  150. In parliament today, debate will continue on wheat deregulation. I wonder how many WA liberals will be due to speak?

  151. How useless are the Opposition! Even with the benefit of among the world’s most imbalanced media behind them pushing, they can only break even in the latest Newspoll.

    Just imagine if they didn’t have the media help. They’d be extinct within a few months.

  152. That Newspoll result makes no sense to me. Labor comes out with an MYEFO where all Swan does is shuffle money around from year to year to help him get a surplus and Labors vote goes up.

    We are now getting 2,000 asylum seekers/month whereas Labor has budgeted for much less. That increase in asylum seekers will blow Swans surplus. Gillards files from her time at Slater and Gordon have disappeared one of which was lodged with the WA govt.

    The ALP appear to have huge numbers of loyal supporters that will continue to vote Labor no matter how bad they are.

  153. That Newspoll result makes no sense to me.

    Who cares, wingnut? If you think any of the regulars here give the tiniest toss what you think, you’re deluded.

  154. Also coming out with the MYEFO so early has people think why. It is not mid year and there is no reason to bring it out now. Some people are saying that Swan produced MYEFO so early to hide bad news which would have been revealed if it had come out in December

  155. Neil
    Rudd has something to say as well: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/rudd-camp-stirs-the-surplus-soup-20121029-28dn1.html#ixzz2Ad66iMEf

    “Put simply, the Rudd camp believes the bungled renegotiation with the miners after Rudd was dumped as leader is the reason for the mining tax falling short, not the recent plunge in commodity prices….Since the government promised to return to surplus in 2012-13, Swan, has vowed at each budget and midyear budget update to cuts again if necessary to ensure that goal is reached. Last week, for the first time, he declined to make the commitment and since, both he and the Finance Minister, Penny Wong, when pressed, have used a new form of words which no longer prioritises a surplus and is code for deficit: ”We will put in place the appropriate budget policies to support jobs and growth in the Australian economy…A senior figure in the Rudd camp notes that in the budget of May 2010, delivered six weeks before Rudd was knifed, the promise to return to surplus in 2012-13 was first made.
    The forecast $1 billion surplus depended in large part on the Resources Super Profits Tax, the original incarnation of the mining tax, actually raising the revenue it had been forecast to make and funding the promises for which its proceeds had been budgeted.
    Rudd fell in the midst of that furious and well-funded onslaught from the miners. Gillard and Swan hurriedly renegotiated the tax. Treasury officials were exempt from the talks with the big three – BHP Billiton, Rio Tinto and Xstrata.
    The opposition, industry figures such as Andrew Forrest and now the Rudd people believe the government was hoodwinked.
    ”They had their tummies tickled,” said the Rudd supporter…

  156. not the recent plunge in commodity prices

    Actually there has not been a plunge in commodity prices. They are still at very high levels. They have fallen only a little bit.

    http://www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/commodity-prices.html

    The link shows commodity prices are still much higher than when Howard was in govt. If the mining companies are not making super profits now they never will. And talk about wasting boom time revenue. Wayne Swan has wasted the lot on tax cuts and welfare. Not one cent of boom time revenue has been saved. The ALP has wasted the lot.

  157. Julia Gillard shoots ahead as preferred PM.

    The hypocritical part of this from both the opposition and their blinkered followers is that for a long time they kept boasting about the polls and using them to bash Gillard and Labor every time one came out. They kept bragging there will be Labor wipe out and their clueless brain farting leader will be PM.

    Now the polling trend has turned, as many here and across the Interwebs said it would, including non-partisan media commentators, the same mouths are saying polls don’t matter the only important one is the election.

    I have always said the election will be closer than what the blind right wing supporters kept crowing the wipe out outcome would be. I still believe this is the case and don’t know who will win. That’s up to democracy and how much propaganda, lies and deceits the Liberals and their media mouth pieces can get the voters to believe.

    You now see why the Liberals were so desperate to trash parliament and engineer and early election. They know the severe limitations of Abbott and don’t fancy their chances of having to go through a full term election campaign with him at the helm. They have probably missed their chance now for unless Labor implodes, always on the cards with them, if the Liberals do engineer an early election on the current mood of the electorate they will lose badly.

    So from now until the election the Liberals, as they always have done, will do every nasty and devious thing in the book to attack Gillard and the government making up as many things as possible and will attempt to trash parliament at every opportunity. The media will aid and abet them every step of the way. The closer the government gets to full term the more they will increase the nastiness of the attacks and the more vociferous they will become in their deceits. On that I’m certain.

  158. Neil

    The newspoll does make sense. The swinging voters like myself are opening their eyes and seeing that the alternative is even worse than what we have. I have disliked Tony Abbott since he was elected as an attack dog for John Howard, not just since he became opposition leader. I have disliked Julia Gillard since she knifed Kevin Rudd. But Tony Abbott knifed Malcolm Turnbull using the advantage when an MP who would have voted for Malcolm would not be there during the spill.

    Problem is Tony Abbott continues his aggressive and attack dog style and the novelty is wearing off. I grew weary of this type of politics years ago. Seems some of the other swingers have decided the same. I actually think the poll boost for Julia has nothing to do with her Mysoginist commentsa as I actually think Tony Abbott is not a mysogynist but more a bully at anyone who disgarees with him male or female. I believe the boost has come as a result of Alan Jones and his unforgiveable comments. That repulsed most people and the Young Liberals silence along with the muted comments from the LNP MPs was and remains very very poor response.

  159. Treeman

    Whether the government can do and the opposition can’t is totally irrelevant of whether they should be scruitinsed.

    Did you feel the same when the Howard government was in power.

    They should both face the same scruitiny day in day out. To do less shows bias anmd also lets one side of politics have their snouts in the trough simply for the ride. Absolutely no excuse reasoning or think tank comments can change this.

  160. The mining tax was altered because of the media hsyteria from the mining companies spending millions on advertising. The idle threats of closing down mines and fleeing the country. This created false and baseless fear and hysteria in communities and as a result the government backed down and negotiated a lesser tax. Not for the good of the nation but for the good of the mining industry who have still gone on their merry way.

    But at least it is better than the LNP no mining tax policy who would apparently rather increase the GST, you know the most regressive tax ever implemented and the one that effects the poor and lowly paid far more than any other tax. The one where it goes up each and every time a business puts up its own fees, not when you get a payrise. The one introduced by the Howard Government.

  161. Also coming out with the MYEFO so early has people think why

    Why did Peter Costello release the 2001-2002 MYEFO on 17/10/2001 then Neil?

  162. They should both face the same scruitiny day in day out.”

    No problem with that statement. But you have to deal with human nature also. ALP supporters are the most tribal human beings I have ever met. They put the ALP first and Australia second.

    They do not care about factual accuracy. I am a strong Liberal party supporter because I do not agree with most/all things ALP supporters say so I have nowhere to go except to the Liberal party.

    ALP says Howard wasted the mining boom because he spent most of the money. It is a lie. Costello saved $50B in his last three years. What is Labor doing with boomtime money?? Roof insulation and new assembly halls.

    Regarding commodities, what has happened to the price of Iron Ore and Coal ?”

    I gave you the link.

    http://www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/commodity-prices.html

    Commodity prices are still high. I guess the link gives average commodity prices. I have read the Iron ore and coal have dropped. But I suspect prices are still higher then when Howard was in power.

    Are you disagreeing with Reserve Bank figures??

  163. Why did Peter Costello release the 2001-2002 MYEFO on 17/10/2001 then Neil?

    Don’t know. Perhaps you could tell me. Was there an election coming up?

  164. Neil

    Of course the ALP has rusted on supporters who will vote for them no matter how bad they are. However the LNP have exactly the same number of rusted on supporters who will vote for them no matter how bad they are. The people who decide are the swining voters like myself. Anyone else wants to live a theocracy not a democracy. Many people lack the ability to actually examine a policy but rather parrot their side of politics for or against instead of seeing if they believe the policy has merit. Many swingers are also sick of either side and vote independent. The new Lord Mayor of Sydney is a kick in the teeth for the O’Farrell Government after their deceiptful and despiacable law changes to force the change in the hope of removing it from Independent hands.

    The new Canberra Government will be decided by a green who has the balance of power. I certainly hope the Green Member reviews the hatred and venom and determination to destroy independents and little parties by the LNP over the last 7 years before making their decision.

  165. Homework for you Neil:

    Contrast and compare receipts and expenditure as % of GDP for budgets from 1996 to 2012.

    Your commodity prices alone are meaningless. How much mining and associated companies put into government coffers is a function of many more variables – things like how much they’re investing in new equipment and projects for example.

    I’m off to Gladstone for the day – back late this afternoon. I wonder are you sufficiently capable of independent analysis to work out the facts for yourself? I’d almost be willing to bet the answer is NO. Can you prove me wrong for once? ;)

  166. How much mining and associated companies put into government coffers is a function of many more variables – things like how much they’re investing in new equipment and projects for example.”

    O.K Bacchus I get your point. When Howard/Costello was in power they were getting lots of money from mining. However poor old Swanny with commodity prices almost double what Costello was getting is not getting as much money as Costello.

    Is this what you are trying to say??

    http://www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/commodity-prices.html#

    This link shows that terms of trade are at all times high. You have to go back to the Victorian gold rush when we were still a British colony to find terms of trade so good. But apparently poor old Swanny is not getting any of this money. Howard dealing with the worst drought in Australian history was getting more money than Swan after the drought broke.

    Is this correct???

  167. Neil

    Why dont you look at the graph just one above the one you last posted and 2 down from the previous one or are you conveniently skipping that one. It shows the collapse of Iron Ore and Coal prices which appear to be heading down to pre GFC levels and while they have not yet hit the price under the “Levy For Everything Government”. They do not have far to get there.

    What should have happened years ago was an MRRT to plan for exactly this type of scenario. More tax when prices are high and less when prices are low in the boom and bust nature of mining. At least the current government has introduced a tax which will generate income in the future when another cycle results in the same pattern.

  168. “What should have happened years ago was an MRRT to plan for exactly this type of scenario.”

    No use sawing sawdust Shane, it’s what will happen that we have the opportunity to influence.

  169. while they have not yet hit the price under the “Levy For Everything Government”. They do not have far to get there.”

    And that is the important point. Prices for iron ore and coal are still higher than what Costello was getting. And they are still at boomtime levels.

    Actually if you look at the graph you are talking about prices for coking coal was approx. $90/t in 2007. It is now at $180/t. Same for iron ore. Approx. $50/t in 2007 and $120/t if you follow the blue line which is average export price.

    http://www.rba.gov.au/chart-pack/images/15-commodity-prices/15bl-blkcomp-small.gif?accessed=2012-10-29-11-43-50

    Also the drought has broken.

  170. To give an example of how the right chop and change.

    Immediately after Gillard’s speech to Abbott the right wing media and online commentators were saying the speech would have not political impact, now they are saying it only had impact because it was political.

  171. Neil

    The prices are still higher but that does not mean boom times when you factor in everything else happening in the economy. You are using a couple of graphs to justify your ideological comments. YOu may wish to look back and read the results from 1975 to today and see that Howard also enjopyed a massive increase in terms of trade and base metal prices form when he first gained power. So he did not simply make do with what he was given. He also had a massive benefit. The difference is it was still continuing when he was voted out. This government is facing a fall in those prices, in a very different economoic circumstance, after a GFC that Howard did not face.

    You need ot investigate whether Howard got more money from mining during the boom or not. Or whether most of the general revenue was from the impostition of many levies, the introduction of fees for a multitiude of previous government services and data which were provided for free or just an increase during a period of massive borrowings to create a false wealth.

    I am not an economist but even I understand that many factors effect many results for both sides of politics on any given period of time. As we become more and more global, our own ability to determine and influence our future will be slowly dissipated unless we have mechanisms enacted to ensure that multinationall mega companies pay their fair share of taxes to our country for enterprise. To do less would ensure our own assets are slowly stripped to the benefit of other countries and their own treasury rather than ours.

  172. Neil

    “The drought has broken”. It may have but that is not the be all and end all. The prices for stock feed have sky rocketed. While the drought has broken many areas are still painfully dry. The price of fertilisers has jumped massively. The cost to restock a property after a drought has broken is many times the income received when de stocking. Many rural operators become unable to restock and recommence their property the way it operated beforehand.

    I am form the land, do you undertstand how it all works when a drought happens ?. I do and it is much more than we have a drought or the drought is broken.

  173. Treeman

    Not sawing sawdust. Better late than never in my opinion. Need to start somewhere. But then agian there are those who do nothing but complain, nothing but moan and nothing but negativity rather than seeing the merit for future generations.

    The country that had vision was Norway. Strangely a leftoid country.

  174. I am not an economist but even I understand that many factors effect many results for both sides of politics on any given period of time

    O.K. but Labor is giving the impression that they are not getting the money from mining boom that Costello did. I do not believe it.

    And having had a closer look at the graphs your were referring to the ALP is still getting double the price for iron ore and coal than the Coalition did. So do not believe the spin when Labor says revenue from commodities have dropped. This is true but they have dropped from boomtime levels to levels just below boomtime and still much higher than the Coalition got when in power.

  175. Shane

    “The country that had vision was Norway”

    Four out of five Norwegians Evangelical Lutherans may well have galvanised vision but to which particular vision are you referring?

    BTW, hear what you say about drought and wet cycles, the impacts on rural sector. many of my friends and relatives farm and I’ll never forget uncle forced to sell his breeders and then the indignity of having to pay tax on that transaction…

  176. Newspoll is interesting. To note, the Coalition primary vote has fallen below August 2010 election. The only other time it has been as low was the poll before Margie when newspoll was also 50:50.
    esources.news.com.au/files/2012/10/29/1226505/011192-aus-na-file-newspoll.pdf

  177. True, but the trend of the polls is the parties are closer.

    The real figure will most likely be around 52/51:48/49 to the Coalition and the election, barring some implosion on either side, will be close in my opinion.

    A point is the rabid right wing supporters with unrestrained glee, especially those rooting for Abbott, jumped on every poll, especially Newspoll, that showed the large gap between the Coalition and Labor and declared a Labor wipeout. I note most of those have gone silent.

    The polls a long way out from an election have little bearing and usually within an election year unless there is a firm trend, as happened with Howard and the State Labor governments, an election is usually closer than the distant polls indicate.

    I don’t see anything in Essential about preferred PM or satisfaction with the leaders. I think Essential like the other polls wouldn’t be kind to Abbott, not that they are great for Gillard either, but with the constant media attacks over a sustained period, the damning of the Rudd knifing and the unabashed praising and putting on a pedestal of Abbott the bad polls for Abbott personally reflect how unpalatable to the people he is.

    One thing is for certain the closer polls will bring out the rabid right wing zombie trolls in numbers as the right gear up their astroturfers to unleash in numbers. Not hard to pick in the blogs and forums.

  178. At work yesterday the TV was left on Ten after watching Casey’s famous victory, & thus I found myself in the same room as The Bolt Report, something I would not normally do. But on the principle that I was being paid for it I glanced at the screen during the performance of my duties, which brings me at last to the point. In addition to the usual rapid fire anti Laborisms I saw Michael Bloody Costa on. I was too busy to listen to more than a few words but it was immediately obvious that he wasn’t there to defend the ALP.
    Why do these people do it? A question asked often enough before. I suppose that for someone in the twilight of their careers & self perceived importance, the lure of dollars & faux respect from their enemies, who certainly haven’t forgotten what side they’re on, is enough.
    By the way I’ve seen Tanya P.’s putdown of Richo where she said she hoped she’d never bag the ALP in retirement dubbed the Plibersek Manifesto. I like that.

  179. The last couple of days Abbott has been banging on about how Labor will go the smear and how the next election will be the nastiest. Well not wanting to wait until next year and the election, the Coalition went the smear in QT. Yes the question to the PM from Bishop first quoting Mckew book and then the trash story in Fairfax about that old union stuff.
    So for all Abbott’s self righteousness, he was the first to throw muck, the poll must have got to him.
    By the way a very poor effort by the coalition in QT. Apart from trying to attack the PM, oh yes use a woman to do it, just to be on the safe side (coward), all they had was carbon tax and refugees.

  180. Treeman

    I think you know I mean their policies and their politics, not their religion.

    Norway has been saving its money via taxes on profits and an MRRT on their mines. They have no debt and massive overseas holdings. They are a very socialist leaning capitalist country. They have free health, and high pensions. They have a very high standard of living. The mining companies did not run when they faced taxes and the government stood its ground. The result is a country with an excellent standard of living for all its citizens, no debt and rather massive foreign reserves earning substantial interest.Even the party you would call the LNP is very social in its policies.

    A much better beacon of an example than the uba capitalist greed of the USA.

  181. Norway has been saving its money via taxes on profits and an MRRT on their mines.”

    We were to until the ALP won the 2007 election. Costello saved $50B in his last three budgets.

    I cannot understand why you want to give the ALP any more money. They have a proven record of wasting it. Is there an ALP govt in recent memory anywhere in Australia that has paid off any debt?? In 1988, Queensland was debt free. After 20 years of ALP rule they lost there credit rating in 2008 during the biggest mining boom in our history. And the boom took place in Qld.

    I would rather burn the money and use the heat obtained to generate some electricity rather than give it to the ALP.

  182. “”Polls will come and go but the truth is Tony Abbott is absorbing this campaign of character assassination,” Mr Pyne told reporters in Canberra.”

    If Mr. Pyne is correct, the PM has managed to do to Mr. Abbott, what he did to her, in one speech, what it has taken him two or more years, of crisscrossing the country to achieve.

    It is all about perception, and what the speech did, was to change some of the public perceptions of the PM.

    Many here have been saying for ages, that the public perception has been based on very little fact.

    Abbott’s success depended on that perception being maintained.

    It is very unlikely that he will be able to reverse the process now.

    The PM is too busy laying the agenda for the next election.

    The PM is now trying the next generation of education, being tied into the new broadband age.

    As the PM said it Abbott wanted to keep looking in the rear mirror, that is OK but she is looking ahead.

    It is not a matter of where the money is coming from. It is a matter that we cannot afford to not to find a way.

    At the end of the day, it is a matter of priories.

    Take the culling back of the baby bonus. The PM has taken from a Howard program that never has been seen as good policies by economists, to ensure that the money is found to fund the school assistance.

    Remember, I believe, a white paper is for discussion. If this is so, Ms. Bishop’s scream, of where the money is coming from, and complaining it has not been detailed is a little stupid.

    At the end of the day., it will; be about choices we all make.

  183. Neil, people are sick of hearing about ancient history, that is repeated over and over and over. Maybe they could come up with something new, people might be interested.

  184. I wonder are you sufficiently capable of independent analysis to work out the facts for yourself? I’d almost be willing to bet the answer is NO.

    Exactly as expected – not willing to research to find the truth for yourself from the freely available budget papers :roll:

    Bottom line Neil – IF you weren’t such a lazy &^%$, you’d find that your “low-taxing” Liberal government from 1996 to 2007 averaged Revenue of 24.3% of GDP (and I left out 2007-08 as it was 1/2 Labor) while Labor since 2008-09 has had to contend with revenue at an average of 22.7% of GDP. To put that into raw figures, on average, based on current GDP, Labor has been contending with $28.4Billion less pa. than the coalition. This while having to contend with the worst world-wide economic crisis since the 1930s.

  185. ‘I note most of those have gone silent.’

    Newspoll is untrustworthy. What can you expect from hate media?

  186. Labor has been contending with $28.4Billion less pa. than the coalition.”

    O.K. Lets say you are right. Costello left a $20B surplus. This means the deficit should be $8.4B.

    I suspect that the main reason taxation receipts has dropped is because of large decrease in Capital gains tax. Not because Labor is a low taxing govt. People with lots of money in the share market can write off their losses. The GFC hit a lot of people with money in the share market. They would have been paying lots of CGT before the GFC and are now claiming losses.

  187. O.K. Lets say you are right

    Very kind of you Neil – all figures come directly from budget papers :roll:

    Costello left a $20B surplus

    More meaningless pap Neil. What is a surplus? What does this term actually mean? I suspect you have NFI :roll:

    This means the deficit should be $8.4B.

    You may need to show your working as to how you arrived at this figure. I do hope you can include the effect of GFC stimulus and what the difference between what the government and Treasury did and what the coalition proposed :roll:

    I suspect that the main reason taxation receipts has dropped is because …blah, blah, blah

    I have zero interest in what you “suspect” Neil. Your record of economic analysis is appalling. It seems economics is certainly more complex than you can comprehend at this stage in your life. Perhaps when you grow up and start doing you own research, thinking critically, and giving up that which makes you ideologically blind, others may come to value your input on economic matters. Until then…. :roll:

  188. El Glordo, there you go again…. :lol: ….. you and your one liners…. “Newspoll is untrustworthy. What can you expect from hate media?” ….. I realise that you lot have got your ‘reverse’ projection thingy going…….. but did you count the laughs on QandA tonight as those ‘reverse’ projection thingys were happening…… ‘fool some of the people…… et-fucking-cet-er-HA ….. imagine if it was’nt for LNP MP Peter Slipper’s vote the LNP would have been on a much merrier path IMO…. :D

  189. “I do hope you can include the effect of GFC stimulus ”

    I did not know the ALP is still stimulus spending. What a waste of money.

    Does it ever cross your brain that the ALP has lost revenue because of its policies?? I think unemployment would be 0.5% lower if it wasn’t for FWA.

    And how many good Howard govt schemes were abolished and replaced by dudds?? I know there were many complaints when Rudd abolished Commercial Ready which was a Howard govt program for helping companies commercialize products. Labor used the money it saved by abolishing Commercial Ready and spent it on a green energy program.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/at-a-loss-as-grant-is-axed/story-e6frgafx-1111116660734

    WHEN the federal Government announced on budget night that it had decided to close its Commercial Ready innovation grants program for companies seeking funds for expansion, Robi Karp was understandably shocked.

  190. Neil

    We were not saving money like Norway. We were giving tax cuts upon tax cuts with each and every surplus simply becuase of good times and to buy votes. Norway did not reduce taxes, instead it invested the money overseas. There is a stark difference and you should be able to identify the difference.

    In relation to a deficit of $8 billion are you also factoring in the increased cost of absolutely everything since Howard was removed, have you taken into account his pension and allowances and benefits for life he is now entitled to as an example.

  191. We were not saving money like Norway. We were giving tax cuts upon tax cuts with each and every surplus simply becuase of good times and to buy votes. ”

    You know Shane I get condemned because I keep saying the same things over and over and over again. But I have too with you lot. Costello SAVED $50B in his last three budgets.

    When Costello finished paying off Federal govt debt he started up several funds to deposit the surplus money. For example Costello started HEEF by depositing $6B from the budget surplus. Costello hoped that this fund to be used for University infrastructure would be increased over the years and only the interest spent. Interest was about $300M/ year, not much but it was a start. When Labor got in they changed the name to EIF and spent the money (i.e the capital). I think the ALP are criminals.

  192. Shane

    “In relation to a deficit of $8 billion are you also factoring in the increased cost of absolutely everything since Howard was removed, have you taken into account his pension and allowances and benefits for life he is now entitled to as an example.”

    That’s a bit rich coming from you!

  193. Neil

    I have never denied Costello saved money Neil, but what he and Howard did was to give tax cuts to the wealthy at a time of unseen prosperity instead of keeing the EXTRA money and saving it in foreign investments. He did pay off our government debt but instead of then going into massive infrastrucuture and saving, he simply gave more and more tax cuts and middle class welfare. The massive problem with this is that when the unseen prosperity starts to diminish so does the governments income even though it now has more costs to deal with. Imagine where we would be if the taxation system was identical to that which Howard inherited and at those rates of taxation.

    It is a flawed strategy which Norway did not entertain. Giving tax cuts to business does not create jobs. It creates extra wealth for the shareholders and fat cats. Private enterprise employs the bare minimum staff, whether they are making a small or a huge profit, that is how capitalism works, maximum returns with minimal outlay. I understand this but government should have enough guts to stand firm against the duopolies.

  194. but what he and Howard did was to give tax cuts to the wealthy at a time of unseen prosperity”

    That is something you want to believe because it suits your belief system (unseen prosperity). Name me one major country that was paying off debt during this time of unseen prosperity?? The only ones I know of were Canada, New Zealand and I think Spain. But all the major countries were getting into debt.

    Closer to home what about Queensland?? You know what were Bligh/Beattie doing during this time of unseen prosperity. That is right they got Queensland into debt and the mining boom took place in Queensland.

    Howard/Costello made it look easy because they new what they were doing. If Swan was Treasurer during this time the budget would be completely different.

  195. No Neil, It is something we believe because it is true. It also left a structural imbalance within the budget.

    It is the job of government to provide the environment for business to prosper. This takes money.

    It takes a well educated and healthy workforce.

    It takes roads, ports and rail.

    We need clever, cheap and green fuel to power the exciting future that appears to be available.

    We need state of the art means of communication, that will be met by NBN and the computers of the future, that are just around the corner.

    It takes invention and creation.

    It takes being able to find overseas markets.

    It takes an IR environment for all to prosper.

    What I am saying, that money has to be found, fore the capitalist system to grow, where all benefit.

    Now we have to find the money for the Asiqan future. If we do not, we will go backwards.

    This country has a wonderful future, but only if we have the foresight and guts to grab it.

    For the first time in Australia’s history, we are not too far away. We are in the centre of it all.

    We are entering the global world, where countries and nation are less important.

    Looking out of the rear window, will not get us there.

    If we decide we cannot afford to spend, we will simply miss out. I do not believe there will be prizes for coming second.

  196. “Why is it a bit rich coming from me ?”
    You’re the one who “can criticise both and do so regularly.” but in context ask us to consider John Howard’s entitlements when clearly all pollies have them and given the recent increases, more Labor members will have more dollars in pocket!

    It would not surprise me if, taking into account the 38% increases, grubs like the “retired” speaker and the member for Dobell have comparable entitlements…

  197. Compared to the price of a packet of peanuts (around $18.00 a kilo) or a 10 kilo bag of chicken feed ($10.00), Australia’s gross government debt ($256 billion) is astronomical. Net government debt at $148 billion is huge. But compared to the size of the economy, or a series of international benchmarks and compared to other rich industrialised countries, Australia’s gross and net government debt are peanuts or chicken feed.

    Net government debt in Australia reached a cyclical peak of 10 per cent of GDP in 2011-12 and the return to budget surplus will see debt fall to below 8 per cent of GDP by 2015-16.

    Government debt is not an issue in the minds of anyone with a serious interest in the functioning of the Australian economy and its bond market. Australia has a triple-A credit rating from all three major credit rating agencies and government bond yields are near all time lows. The strength of the Australian dollar owes much to international investor confidence in public policy.

    For the rest of the world, it is difficult to know for sure whether the level of government debt five or 10 times that of Australia’s is a problem or not.

    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/debt-government-bonds-economy-interest-recession-s-pd20121030-ZJR8E?opendocument&src=idp&emcontent_asx_financial-markets&utm_source=exact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=124513&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary

  198. t is by no means clear what actual level of government debt is a problem, nor what level is desirable. Suffice to say, it depends most simply on a government’s ability to meet the debt servicing costs.
    What is clear is that the greater the level of debt, the greater the risk and vulnerability to shocks such as a rise in interest rates, a recession or an absence of funding. This is why Spain is seen as a massive risk with net debt at 79 per cent of GDP and the US has no difficulty with net debt at 84 per cent.

    The lesson of the past decade is that when an economy is growing, it is best to pare back government debt levels. In a boom, pay back debt quickly. With softer growth do it slowly. This was the error of most governments made in the decade up to about 2007. There were good economic times yet rarely did we see budget surpluses.

    For Australia, it is different. Net government debt has never been above 18.1 per cent in modern history and with it topping out at 10 per cent of GDP in the current cycle, any concerns about government debt are hopelessly misguided.

    In 46 budgets between 1970-71 and 2015-16, there are 23 surpluses. Exactly half of the time, as a Keynesian would wish, there has been a deficit, half the time a surplus. Which just reinforces the point that there is no debt problem in Australia, no debt servicing issues, no interest rate burden on the government sector.

    The debt level is chicken feed, it’s peanuts and it’s starting to fall from an already low level as the budget moves back to surplus.
    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/debt-government-bonds-economy-interest-recession-s-pd20121030-ZJR8E?opendocument&src=idp&emcontent_asx_financial-markets&utm_source=exact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=124513&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary

    Emphasis for Neil’s benefit.

    But then what would experts know.

  199. From the bloke who made Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Gold.

    Replace Romney with Abbott and you have Australia’s fate.

  200. Yes, she should have. Labor should have dumped the Intervention.

    FORMER Northern Territory chief minister Clare Martin says she regrets not taking the fight up to John Howard when the former prime minister began the intervention into Aboriginal communities.

    In a new book that chronicles the thoughts of eight former chief ministers, Ms Martin says Mr Howard was playing politics with Aboriginal issues in the Northern Territory.

    “The Howard publicity machine was in full force,” she wrote in the book, entitled Speak for Yourself.

    “Looking back I should have taken up the fight much more strongly, even if that included fighting with my federal Labor colleagues.”

    In 2007, with the Howard government behind in the polls and facing a federal election, the Coalition introduced a suite of measures in response to the Little Children are Sacred report on sex abuse in Aboriginal communities.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/martin-regrets-not-fighting-intervention/story-fn3dxiwe-1226506822687

  201. For Australia, it is different. Net government debt has never been above 18.1 per cent in modern history and with it topping out at 10 per cent of GDP in the current cycle, any concerns about government debt are hopelessly misguided.”

    What Stephen Koukoulas forgets is that Australia is a Federation. You have to factor in Sate govt debt as well and when you do it is not so rosy. Lets hope that Cambell Newman can get Queensland debt under control. It was zero in 1988. And for those people who talk about UNSEEN PROSPERITY, Queensland lost its credit rating in 2009 during the biggest mining boom in our history. And no major country paid down debt like Howard/Costello did. We have a lot to thank Costello for.

    Stephen Koukoulas is a fool. He is also a liar.

    There would have been people like him in Spain saying similar things.

  202. It’s not use hitting Neil with facts and figures Cu, he will ignore them if they don’t conform to his erroneous and most biased view against Labor and debt.

    Neil has been going on about debt for as long as anyone can remember. In this he’s worse than one trick pony Abbott. Neil has nothing else so he forms everything around debt being bad, but only Labor debt. Liberals can rack up as much debt as they like, whether that be economic, structural, social, health, education, infrastructure, skills, productivity and services.

    For Neil everything begins and ends with debt and no matter how bad the Liberal state government, the waste, the nepotism, the undermining of democracy, the running down of their State, destroying the environment and doing such long term damage future government need to go into debt to fix it, he forgives them but always go on about Labor debt and just Labor debt.

    Note that O’Farrell went into debt and the reason given was to shore up infrastructure. Not a peep out of Neil, nor about the litany of broken promises and failures of all the State Liberal governments.

    So don’t give him facts and figures they wash off him like water off a duck.

  203. Maybe someone else might be interested.

    Not that there are many visiting at this time, since the visitors have taken over, Not that keen myself. Be glad when Miglo gets back.

    Nearly took scaper out today, but I know that Miglo might not like that.

    So much happening, and they are controlling the site.

    Cannot even motivate myself to put up a post. It would just be a waste of time.

  204. It’s not use hitting Neil with facts and figures Cu

    Stephen Koukoulas is being deceitful. He conveniently forgets that Australia is a Federation. Mentioning our low Federal govt debt but not including the State govts is wrong. Lets hope Cambell Newman can get Queensland debt under control. But what usually happens is that the Libs start running surplus budgets, get the debt under control and start paying it off. They then get voted out and Labor racks it up again.

    Look at what happened to Kennett. Same happened to Costello

    Koukoulas is also a liar

    The debt level is chicken feed, it’s peanuts and it’s starting to fall from an already low level as the budget moves back to surplus.”

    Starting to fall??? Really?? You can tell Koukoulas is an ALP supporter. He tells lies.

    I just sick of every time Labor is in power they trash the budget and the poor old Libs have to step in and try and fix things up.

  205. Feel the same Cu. It’s the way trolls and Liberal supporters work, trash everything, deceitful, dishonest and disruptive.

    Mostly ignore them and talk to the much nicer mob here.

    I think I just heard a broken record.

  206. “It’s not use hitting Neil with facts and figures…Note that O’Farrell went into debt”

    Hilarious Mobius…O Farrell was in debt up to his ears before he even claimed victory in the election…Facts Mobius facts not spin.

  207. “I just sick of every time Labor is in power they trash the budget and the poor old Libs have to step in and try and fix things up.” …… like Mo said, your not listening, not ever going to listen….. Neil is a *fwit… and the proof is in his comment…… Lieberals f* the state/nation when they get in Labor has to fix their f*up’s up….. one of the best economys in the world and thats enough ‘proof’ for Neil that things are ‘no good’ ……. the worlds looking at Australia as a leading country during these hard times globally …. but to Neil its all shit…… Neil is ‘proof’ that the LNP types are un-australian morons, incapable of seeing the truth if you shoved it up their Abbott….. :D …. the only ‘good’ Neil is here is that there is someone at the Cafe dumber than me…. thanks for that Neil… :lol:

  208. trash everything, deceitful, dishonest and disruptive.”

    Where am i being deceitful??

    It is Stephen Koukoulas who is being deceitful. He is also telling lies. He says our debt levels are starting to fall.

    The debt level is chicken feed, it’s peanuts and it’s starting to fall from an already low level as the budget moves back to surplus.

    Really?? Starting to fall?? And why is Federal debt low?? It is because Costello worked at getting it down for 11 long years and now we are back to nearly where we started from. It will double every 5 years under the ALP. Last time in power it quadrupled from 1983-1996.

  209. Neil, what did Costello achieve in those long years he was in power. Yes, he did encourage the bosses to create shelf companies to pay their employees from. That was a good one. Money by the way, that the workers had already earned.

    He did encourage dogs onto the waterfront, along with his mate Reith.

    Before that he had a couple of court wins, taking away workers rights.

    Dollar Sweets and that place in the Territory.

    Not a bad life’s work. He is now rounding it off with putting the Queensland workers in what he considers to be their place.

    What did Howard and Costello build.

  210. He did encourage dogs onto the waterfront, along with his mate Reith.”

    Waterfront reform was needed. People earning much more than they deserve. Productivity greatly improved. I guess under Labor the rorts are returning and productivity levels are falling and then people like Bacchus wonder why tax revenue is falling.

    What did Howard and Costello build.”

    What did Hawke/Keating build??

  211. CU, the trolls only aim is to shut the Café down.

    Hard as it is we shouldn’t feed them or respond to their constant egregious lies. We know there isn’t a truthful one amongst them, just idiots mouthing Liars Party lies, obfuscations and ignorant bullshit.

    Some even think they’re economic geniuses, but demonstrate their woeful ignorance with every utterance.

    We can tell they’re getting desperate because they’re becoming more strident and telling more outrageous lies as the polls show people are turning away from Liealot and the Liars Party.

  212. Migs, welcome home.

    Just in time, I think the trolls have been trying to perform a hostile takeover while you’ve been gone. They’ve spun themselves into a frenzy.
    It may have something to do with the way the latest polls are trending.

    Cheers :lol: :lol: :lol:

  213. Thanks TS/S.

    I’m real tired and grumpy after traveling for 26 hours but should be right after a good sleep (nothing under 12 hours I hope :) ).

    What’s with the polls? I haven’t been keeping up with the news.

  214. Migs is back.. *waves*…… Lovo steps over Bacchus and sneeks/slides out of cellar….. rolls.over a troll(S) on the doorstep,…. :D…. lights up and struts,…….. 2 forward, one back… :cool:

  215. Treeman

    I hate all politcian payrises the lot of them are not worth what they are paid. Yet both sides vote together to give these payrises.

    But once again you need to re read my comments. I was using Howard costs of retirement as one example of why things are now dearer than they were when Howard got booted in 2007, because Neil cannot see past the conservatives, and dollars.

    Tony Abbott complained when they were turfed into opposition that he could not live offf a standard ministers salary with all of its allowances and benefits.

    Your beloved conservatives line up in conga line along with the ALP to vote more payrises and more allowances and more increases each and every year. Why ? because their duopoly ensures they will both benefit from these rises either in Government or Opposition.

    The only ones who vote against payrises have been independents and the green, but they are demonised by the ALP and the LNP.

    Trying to point the bit rich stick just doesn’t cut it.

  216. I’m installing Windows 8 on my hyperbook.

    Not usually an immediate jumper onto new technologies, I normally wait until either the dust has settled and one or two service packs have been released, until my technology begins to fail too often to economically keep going or can no longer do the work I require of it.

    Having been a user of a W7 phone from day one due to my Android phone dying at the time, I have grown to really like the interface of live tiles and hubs. It’s such an intuitive and responsive way of using a touch screen and much better than the grid of icons concept like iPhone.

    All the reviews have been positive, especially for touch devices, so I’m hoping it turns out OK with my hyperbook as it has a very large multi-touch trackpad made for this type of interface.

  217. FORMER Health Services Union boss Michael Williamson has been charged with 28 new offences including cheating and defrauding the union and dealing with the proceeds of crime.

    The extra charges include 27 alleged fraud offences and one charge of money laundering.

    One of the fraud charges allegedly involved $600,000 of misused money, $400,000 of which was illegally laundered.

    Williamson appeared in Waverley Local Court on Wednesday accompanied by his lawyer and brother.

    Outside court, Fraud and Cyber Crime Squad commander Colin Dyson told reporters it was likely even more charges would be laid and at least two more union staff may face arrest.

    It’s not known who they are or what role they had at the union.
    Williamson’s matter was adjourned to January 24 next year at the Downing Centre.

    More soon

    http://www.news.com.au/national/ex-hsu-boss-michael-williamson-faces-28-new-charges/story-fndo4bst-1226507289654?from=public_rss

  218. The revelations from Maxine McKew’s book have the potential for undermining the opposition’s “Juliar” meme. The book tells how Gillard opposed an ETS, but we know that on the eve of the election she said she favoured an ETS but opposed a carbon tax. This shows that although she changed her mind on an ETS (carbon price), she differentiated between a carbon tax and a carbon price.

    I would also point out that Abbott gave an interview on Sky News in 2009 in which he differentiated between a carbon tax and a carbon price, and that he identified a carbon tax with a tax on petrol, which we do not now have. So by Abbott’s definition, Gillard has not introduced a carbon tax, and was true to her word.

    After the election, Abbott conveniently changed his definition of tax so he could make the false charge of “liar” against Gillard.

    In similar fashion, Abbott and his followers have narrowed the definition of misogyny so they can maintain the defence that Abbott is not a misogynist.

    (Has something happened to my gravatar?)

  219. Silkworm, I think that we may have a WordPress problem. Try clicking onto the W for WordPress symbol under the Leave a Comment box, and logging on again.

  220. Silkworm, that was the debate that was going on at the time. It was Abbott himself that brought up the option of a carbon tax, instead of a market based price on carbon emissions.

    They were talking about one or the other.

  221. Silkworm another twisting of words. The PM stated that she did not make her mind up re challenging until she spoke to Rudd.

    The PM did NOT say she had not considered doing so before this time.

    Do we really think the PM would have made this decision without giving it thought, I imagine over time.

    One may even seek to find out what others are doing.

    Why is that scenario so unlikely.

  222. First question.. No carbon tax…..followed by the promise to bring in a surplus, why can we believe anything you say.

    So I say today is Juliar.

    Once again pointed out the mid year outlook shows. We stand by figures and are on track to deliver a surplus. Wonder if that is clear enough.

    Pointed out that his figures are dodgy and he needs them to be given to be investigated under the charter of budget honesty.

  223. I believe the PM is sick of playing with the tiddlers on the line, and is slowly reining it into day.

  224. I’ve just got around to reading the last couple of day’s comments and I have to say that (as a student of monetary economics) I find Neil’s opinions quite entertaining as usual.

    And just to put my comments into a political landscape, I think Labor’s current obsession with a surplus is puzzlingly stupid and illogical. That makes (in my mind) Hockey’s taunts in Parliament even sillier. A pox on both their houses !

    The obsession with debt however is essentially a phony neo-liberal (ie Conservative) contrivance which also infects the so-called “progressive” side of politics.

    So long as water flows downhill, a government that is sovereign in its own currency can continue to run deficits so long as there is spare capacity within the economy, like now, without any detriment to the public finances.

    Coincidentally, Bill Mitchell’s essay today covers this quite well:

    “Think about the current Australian Labor government, which is pursuing a budget surplus “at all costs” because they think such a strategy portrays them as good economic managers. This is at a time when at least 1.5 million workers are either unemployed or underemployed (that is, more than 13 per cent of the available labour force).

    They will probably fail to achieve their much-vaunted surplus because the economy is slowing and their tax revenue is falling well short of their forward estimates. That
    will also be a political disaster for them because the Opposition will appeal to the ignorance of the voters and represent what will actually be a good thing for the economy (the failure to achieve a surplus) as a failure.

    But in trying the Government will be inflicting unnecessary grief on the economy. So in the end – it is a lose-lose – for the progressive side of politics.”

    http://bilbo.economicoutlook.net/blog/?p=21494

    BTW, Norway can run a useful sovereign wealth fund because it also runs current account surpluses. To run a wealth fund when you have current account deficits makes no sense because it just adds another drain to the economy’s spending. And if you have domestic infrastructure issues requiring attention, it borders on vandalism.

  225. This is the new non personal Abbott.

    Three questions on the AWU’s alleged slush fund, and what the Prime Minister knew about it.
    The Prime Minister says she’s answered all these questions, and she wants to know how these questions sit with a comment yesterday from Mr Abbott that he would leave nasty personal attacks to Labor.
    I stand by my public statements. Does the Opposition leader endorse this strategy given his words yesterday? How can the Opposition claim it’s pursuing the national interest rather than nasty personal attacks?
    Ms Bishop is furious at the implication Mr Abbott has written her questions. I find it offensive as a woman.
    These are my questions she’s not answering them.

    Liberal Andrew Laming is shown the door after shouting across the chamber. I couldn’t hear the interjection clearly, but Twitter is telling me Mr Laming called the Prime Minister corrupt.
    I’ve checked with a colleague in the chamber, who confirms that was the interjection.
    Speaker Anna Burke looks ready to spear someone.

    2.36pm: Labor has flipped now to the Murray Darling Basin reforms. The Prime Minister is outlining the government’s plans.

    2.29pm: Mr Turnbull, shadow communications spokesman, is inquiring about the advertising dollars set aside in MYEFO for the NBN. How does that help you get a surplus? And by the way the rollout is way behIND

    Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/politics/blogs/the-pulse/politics-live-october-31-2012-20121031-28ind.html#ixzz2AqZdFJuf

    At least the PM does her own attacking. Does not get a woman to do it.

    MPI seems to be on surplus and border control. Not sure which. Morrison in full flight.

    Morrison is saying the minister and PM isn’t answering the question. Seem to me, they did. Now one has to word a answer the way the Opposition wants, otherwise it is not a answer.

  226. 2.09pm: Here’s Mr Hockey on the surplus to Treasurer Wayne Swan.
    When did you decide to abandon your commitment to delivering a surplus?
    Mr Swan: We have the track record. We protected people in the global financial crisis. We stayed out of recession. Our economy is stronger than just about any country in the developed world. We outlined fiscal rules to bring our budget back to surplus. That’s what we are doing. Why are your crying crocodile tears about the surplus when you can’t even commit to supporting our MYEFO savings?
    Speaker Anna Burke suggests Mr Swan ought to return to the question.

    Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/politics/blogs/the-pulse/politics-live-october-31-2012-20121031-28ind.html#ixzz2Aqg78OwJ

  227. 2.00pm: Here’s Question Time and Mr Abbott.
    His first question links the carbon tax broken promise to the (looming probable) surplus broken promise.
    The Prime Minister congratulates Mr Abbott for new heights in creativity in re-gearing the carbon tax offensive.
    If you want to be taken seriously on the surplus issue, don’t produce dodgy costings, Ms Gillard suggests.
    We stand by the MYEFO figures, she says.

    Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/politics/blogs/the-pulse/politics-live-october-31-2012-20121031-28ind.html#ixzz2AqgkO9Gn

  228. Is Andrew Laming in contempt of the Speaker?

    “In a fiery question time, Liberal MP Andrew Laming was thrown out of the chamber after shouting at the Prime Minister ”you are corrupt”.

    Later on Twitter, Mr Laming was unrepentant. ”Booted from Parliament for commenting on the PM’s refusal to answer questions on AWU dealings,” he wrote.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/pm-hits-out-at-coalitions-nasty-personal-politics-20121031-28jv8.html#ixzz2ArHENNPi

  229. Now who exactly is Jensen describing? Abbott, Pyne. Bishop?

    “WA Liberal MP Denis Jensen has signalled he will abstain from the vote and not oppose the Government’s bill.

    “Regulation is not a natural position,” he said.

    “Note that blue blood pumps through my heart.

    “Time to tell weak-wristed, water-cooler dictators, ‘hands off mate!’.

    “It’s their wheat and they should be able to sell it on their terms.”
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-31/slipper-lashes-coalition-over-27flawed27-wheat-stance/4344630

  230. Looks like another win for the government. The Greens are apparently going to support the Pokies Bill.

    Wow 2 big wins in one day. I wonder what the count will get to before the year is out
    Gillard government 520+ , Abbott Coalition 0

  231. Hockey today blatantly told lie after lie on the economy and nobody in the media picked him up, though many on the Internet are calling for the media to do exactly that.

  232. Another senior Liberal politician who lies through his teeth, and silence from the usual as they accuse Labor of being liars.

    Andrew Robb fact check

    Robb like Hockey want to be in finance if the Liberals win government yet time and again they get facts wrong and outright lie about the portfolios they covet.

    And this is across the board as just about every shadow minister makes up total bullshit about the equivalent government portfolio. Turnbull’s fact check on the NBN is a good example even to the point he was lying about the capabilities whilst he was investing overseas in that capability.

    If the Liberals ever had to be held to account for their prevarications and deceits by the media they would fall into a heap.

  233. We have the NSW treasurer claiming tonight that the NSW budget is still in deficit , to the tune of a billion dollars. This after the auditor general told them they got it wrong.

    Mr. Baird claimed that the auditor included money that he should not have.

    It appears that NSW wants to follow Costello’s system, which he alone reckons is correct.

    Neither NSW or Queensland is in the debt, the premiers claim. That is if one follows conventional accountancy methods.

    Yes, they lie with the greatest of ease.

    The Labor party should receive an apology from both states.

    It appears that Baird wants to leave out money from the Federal Government.

    The other furphy is that Labor is flooding the parliament with new legislation, as they are aiming for a March election.

    The trouble is that this is the norm for the Gillard government.

    See the stony face on the older Bishop during QT.

  234. Chalk up another success to the Labor government and something Howard was never able to do in just over a decade of record revenues and high taxes.

    Australia has become the number 5 financial centre in the world behind Hong Kong, USA, UK and Singapore.

    On another financial matter I saw a graph by Kohler today showing investment in Australia at record highs whilst in every other major country it’s flat.

    Yet the Liberals and their supporters would have you believe that all this money is being poured into Australia and the faith in our financial systems is because we have the worst ever government in Australian history.

    Let’s take that projection back to the source, the worse ever by a long way opposition in Australia’s history.

  235. I read that article by Stephen Koukoulas and I tend to agree with Robb and disagree with Koukoulas. Also people make mistakes. You need to be careful saying other things.

    Robb said this

    this government is finally being bludgeoned by the fiscal consequence of years of reckless spending

    Kouk said this “In real terms, government spending fell 0.4% in 2010-11, rose 4.8% in 2011-12 and is forecast to fall a record 4.4% in 2012-13. That is an average annual growth of 0.0% for three years.

    Kouk said Robb was factually wrong.

    Why did Koouk start with a spending fall of 0.4% in 2010-11?? I think the ALP was elected in 2007. Am I right?? There was large increase in spending due to GFC stimulus spending which most Conservatives would call wasteful spending. So what if there have been some real spending falls. There would want to be. The massive increase in ALP spending was not sustainable.

    Koukoulas is insane.

  236. Neil we all know that any spending to keep people employed is regarded as wasteful by the Tories because they couldn’t give a toss about the welfare of ordinary wage earners.

    They love high unemployment because it provides a large pool of serfs for the Tories’ mates in big business to exploit.

  237. http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/2266-andrew-robb-fact-check

    Robb says “after the biggest boom in our history, after terms of trade that were at 150-year highs”

    Kouk says this is wrong because “(the terms of trade peaked over a year ago, in the September quarter 2011. They have fallen 9.2% since then and according to Treasury, will fall a further 8% in 2012-13),”

    WTF??? Robb says terms of trade WERE at 150 year highs. Kouk says this is wrong because they have recently fallen a little bit. But Robb was right. Terms of trade WERE at 150 year highs.

    Not only is Stephen Koukoulas insane he is also deceitful. Makes sense. Kouk fits in perfectly to the Part of Deceit.

  238. The Party of Deceit is getting more revenue from mining and more money from agriculture than Howard ever did.

    You got a link for that Neil? ;)

    Remember, higher commodity prices ≠ increased government revenue. Why this is so was explained to you the other day – have you forgotten already?

    These details are also to be found in the budget and MYEFO papers – have you read them?

  239. Nil wrote:

    The Party of Deceit is getting more revenue from mining and more money from agriculture than Howard ever did.

    The Liberal Coalition certainly are benefiting from mining….

    Coalition MPs buy up resources shares

    Australian Financial Review, 15 September 2011

    Coalition MPs have been spending up big on shares in the energy and resources sector despite their claims that the carbon tax will drive the economy to the wall, the federal government says.

    http://www.afr.com/p/business/resources/coalition_mps_buy_up_resources_shares_Ea12S75WC4Fo7ZWgVogIWL

    __________________

    Gina Rinehart flew MPs to India for lavish wedding

    Katharine Murphy, The Age, 17 June 2011

    Billionaire mining magnate Gina Rinehart flew Coalition MPs, including the Liberal Party’s deputy leader Julie Bishop and Nationals Senate leader Barnaby Joyce, to take part in a sumptuous three day-wedding of a prominent Indian industrialist in Hyderabad.

    Ms Rinehart took the Canberra delegation by private jet to a Reddy family wedding earlier this week. The Reddy family company, infrastructure behemoth GVK, is seeking a controlling stake in coal mines owned by the Hancock group.

    Reports suggest the transaction could be worth more than $2 billion.

    Senator Joyce told The Age yesterday it was his understanding Ms Rinehart had wanted the wedding party to be bipartisan, also approaching Labor parliamentarians to round out the delegation, but her invitation had been declined.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/gina-rinehart-flew-mps-to-india-for-lavish-wedding-20110616-1g5zf.html#ixzz1PUTzEeDT

  240. “Why did Newspoll this week have the Coalition 50-50 with our worst Government in history?”. The lazy answer is that Newspoll, which has yoyoed suspiciously this year, yet again exaggerates Labor’s support.

    Other major polls confirm what sense and anecdote suggest – Labor has slightly improved but is still behind. Essential Media says Labor is 46 per cent to the Coalition’s 54 after preferences, while Nielsen puts it at 48 to 52.

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/tony-abbott-versus-julia-gillard-fault-on-both-sides/story-e6frfifx-1226507806711

    The article explains just why so many Canberra journalists don’t merely rate Abbott as low as Gillard but even lower.

    Sure, Gillard may often do the disastrously wrong thing – wasting billions of dollars, risking hundreds of lives, covering up the shady and smearing the innocent.

    But how dare that Abbott say her Government should die of shame.

  241. Tree troll,

    Do they pay you losers by the number of ‘comments’ you make? And what happens if a blog has a topic that you leave ‘unanswered’? Do they dock your pay?

  242. Cuupa. “Do they pay you losers by the number of ‘comments’ you make? And what happens if a blog has a topic that you leave ‘unanswered’? Do they dock your pay?”

    Treeman = Iain Hall lite

    Whereas Iain put all his responses in one big long easy to scroll past post, Treeman breaks them down into many single posts.

    Same right wing garbage though, same arrogance and lording and same know it all with the SOP of projection.

    They’re all interchangeable, just change the name.

  243. Neil doesn’t seem to understand that spending is accounted for in “real” terms (that is, inflation adjusted) and also as a percentage of GDP.

    Australia has experienced continuous growth in its GDP unlike most other western economies, thanks to the stimulus and its ongoing multiplier effects.

    Neil also thinks the national accounts are no different from the way he balances his household budget. So Deficit = Bad, Surplus = Good.

    It is beyond stupid.

  244. Beyond stupid…the new motto of Swan, who along with Gillard has been promising a surplus for years…Don’t expect an real terms from him anytime soon and real waffle on economics doth not a proper pancake make!

  245. Cuppa
    For the record, I work for a living but I’m not paid for anything that I write here or in any other blog. I’m not a member of a political party, not attached to a religion and don’t really care what paranoid delusions you may have about me…In fact each time someone smears me here I get another laugh…still working on Chunder Down Under but smoothing it to something politically correct for this blog is proving a challenge. Perhaps I’ll do it one verse at a time and leave the chorus until the end…?

  246. “On another financial matter I saw a graph by Kohler today showing investment in Australia at record highs whilst in every other major country it’s flat.”

    Yes, I saw that graph ME.

    Could it be that firms might be claiming some kind of tax deduction for all this record investment ?

    I’m sure Neil could tell us.

    Treeman seems to have lost the plot.

  247. “Robb may have made a mistake but most of it was accurate and factual.”

    Like the curate’s egg.

  248. Möbius Ecko,

    I know what I’d do if it were my blog… :evil:

    I understand things might have got a bit crazy while I was away. Limited WiFi access in America prevented me from keeping up to date and since returning home I’ve bed-ridden with bronchitis so again generally out of the loop.

    The messages I’ve been getting are that some visitors are intent on disruption rather than debate. Once I find my legs this is an issue I’d be in a better position to address.

    And did I mention the jet lag? :(

  249. “…and since returning home I’ve bed-ridden with bronchitis so again generally out of the loop.”

    That’s your penance Migs for all those carbon miles.

    And don’t forget to plant a tree when you get better.

  250. Hi Migs,

    You sure would be feeling under the weather, what with bronchitis on top of jet lag! You have my sympathy. Get plenty of sleep, drink lots of water, try to avoid stress, trolls notwithstanding.

    I suspect you’re right about their motives. Some threads, about ten comments in a row are by the trolls. It’s not as though there aren’t ample venues in the so-called “mainstream” media for them to ply their filthy propaganda. They know they’re not exactly welcomed here by the broader Cafe community, so why keep coming back, to post in such exorbitant volumes? They’re here to disrupt, I’m sure of it.

  251. Let’s not be too hasty here Cuppa.

    For me, they are rich entertainment.

    As spear carriers for the Tory agenda, they give us a window into that dark world of arrogance, privilege, and stupidity.

  252. Like the curate’s egg.

    I go to the link posted
    http://www.marketeconomics.com.au/2266-andrew-robb-fact-check

    The poster says Robb was factually inaccurate. i read the link and find Kouk was the one being accurate.

    Robb says “after the biggest boom in our history, after terms of trade that were at 150-year highs

    Kouk says this was a mistake because “(the terms of trade peaked over a year ago, in the September quarter 2011. They have fallen 9.2% since then and according to Treasury, will fall a further 8% in 2012-13),”

    ???? Where is the mistake??

    So what if terms of trade peaked over a year ago. They WERE at 150 year highs. How can you win if you tell the truth and still are said to be innaccurate

  253. MJ,

    They come here to crowd out and overwhelm the blog’s stated progressive agenda and content. They can’t tolerate that venues such as the Cafe exist that don’t toe the One Liberal line of the so-called “mainstream” media. So they seek to disrupt, etc. …Sure, it is entertaining (and good practice!) to dismantle their deceitful spin, but there are oodles of places populated by RWFs where that can be done. I don’t like to see the progressive message being diluted in one of the few places that exist to promote our side of the story.

  254. Given that the proper measurement of national accounts was only developed in the late 1930′s and not adopted until much later, to talk of 150 year highs is just theatrical hyperbole.

    Back then Australia , as such, didn’t even exist. It was a bunch of colonies.

    This not economics. It’s primary school “social studies”.

    More boilerplate Tory bullshit.

  255. CU,

    I’ve got some sympathy for your point of view but I really believe that, on balance, our trolly friends are more of a plus for the blog’s health than a minus.

    I thoroughly enjoy the robust debate and even though I realise there are no “winners”, I do suspect there are lots of followers who read this blog and who perhaps, hopefully, take away something of value.

    I’ve been particularly pleased to see economics slowly gain some prominence in the comments stream as I believe that until we self-educate ourselves in the subject, we will continue to allow ourselves to be bullshitted by the party machines (both), and suffer because of it.

  256. “Yes but that is not what Kouky was trying to say. You have added something else.”

    All I’ve added Neil is some background to show you why talk of the best trading terms in 150 years is meaningless.

  257. I wonder if the trolls are on a roster. Do they move from blog from to blog. We had months of Ian, he has disappeared, now we have Tree, with random visits from voyager.

    As for Neil and el gordo, I believe they act on their own behalf. Just have a couple of obsessions, they cannot get past.

    It is a good barometer of how well the PM is travelling by the increase in their numbers.

    Migs, it is also a compliment to you that they do. It means Cafe must be getting attention from many that pass through,

    Keep up the good work. Commenters, just do not let the trolls set the agenda. We are capable of doing that ourselves.

    We can judge how well we are doing, by counting for the name calling and abuse that always comes, when they lose the debate.

    Yes, they are very good for hanging points of view on.

    .

  258. Tree, what type of job allows you the many free hours you appear to have each day, to contribute to this, and I suspect other blogs.

    I live on my own, with many hours to fill in. I have trouble meeting hours you appear to put in.

    Pity, you are not getting any results on this site for your efforts.

  259. MJ, you are correct about the arrogance. It is surely on display in all they write.

    I also noticed over the years, they come, ply their trade but always move on, defeated, I believe.

    It just takes a while for the penny to drop.

    That is, we are beyond saving.

  260. Event of national interest is coming up at Yarralumba. . GG and PM presnt.

    No one knows what it is about. ABC 24

  261. The event of national significance seem to have something to do with the military.

    Wilkie on ABC 24 soon.

  262. Maybe it is time for Mr. Abbott ot focus on policy, including what coming before the parliament. More productive that his daily repetitive stunt eah day.

    THE federal government is expected to introduce a bill today to establish the $1.77 billion special fund to buy an extra 450 gigalitres for the River Murray, despite concerns it will not guarantee all the water will be returned.
    Water Minister Tony Burke said the first few years of funding were primarily for removal of constraints.

    “The pace of constraints removal would influence the pace of water recovery,” he said.

    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott refused to comment on internal Coalition divisions over Labor’s proposed Murray-Darling basin package. Nor would he say if the measures would gain bipartisan support.

    http://theland.farmonline.com.au/news/nationalrural/agribusiness-and-general/finance/river-fund-bill-due-today/2631729.aspx?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

  263. Nil wrote:

    The Party of Deceit is getting more revenue from mining and more money from agriculture than Howard ever did.

    More cases of members of the Liberal Coalition benefiting from miners’ largesse…

    Sydney Morning Herald, 28 June 2012″

    … Coalition MP Scott Morrison received hospitality from Gina Rinehart’s Hancock Prospecting while colleague Stuart Robert received a return flight between Brisbane and Port Moresby paid for by Clive Palmer’s Mineralogy.

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/pm-apologises-over-late-register-addition-20120628-213zl.html

  264. I still think there should be an apology for this statement.

    Robb like Hockey want to be in finance if the Liberals win government yet time and again they get facts wrong and outright lie about the portfolios they covet.”

    One of Andrew Robbs alleged lie/factual inaccuracy was that he said terms of trade were at 150 year highs. Koukoulas says this is wrong because terms of trade peaked over a year ago.

    It was a correct statement. Terms of trade were at 150 year highs. I have seen that statement many times in the media. Most of what Robb says was correct and what Koukky said was wrong.

    Anyone who trust what Koukoulas says is a fool.

    Apology please.

  265. el gordo, where is the evidence for your claim.

    Please someone out there, prove me wrong, by telling me that el gordo has changed your mind re man made climate change.

  266. Neil, if the original legislation of Mr. Rudd was passed, we would have access to those super profits before they peaked.

    Sadly that did not happen, the Australian public being the loser.

    Maybe if the Opposition was not so oppositional, we might have seen a MRRT help alleviate the problems that these super profits have had on propping up the high dollar.

    Talk about opportunities lost.

  267. Like a dog with a bone Neil. :roll: Stephen Koukoulas was simply pointing out the dishonesty of Andrew Robb (and you) in attempting to equate a peak in terms of trade a year ago with current government receipts (amongst a variety of other blatant LIES that you choose to ignore.)

    FFS Neil, get some basic education in economics or go and annoy some other poor bloggers! Some logic education wouldn’t go astray either ;)

  268. Please someone out there, prove me wrong, by telling me that el gordo has changed your mind re man made climate change.

    It’s not going to happen CU. el gordo has been proved wrong so often now, I’m sure many no longer even bother reading what she has to say, little lone (sic ;) ) following her links…

  269. Stephen Koukoulas was simply pointing out the dishonesty of Andrew Robb (and you) in attempting to equate a peak in terms of trade a year ago with current government receipts

    No he was not. Kookky was being deceitful.

    What about the first alleged lie/factual inaccuracy??. Robb said

    “this government is finally being bludgeoned by the fiscal consequence of years of reckless spending

    Kooky responds by saying “(In real terms, government spending fell 0.4% in 2010-11, rose 4.8% in 2011-12 and is forecast to fall a record 4.4% in 2012-13. ”

    ??? Rudd was elected in 2007 was he not?? What about spending in 2008 and 2009?? It exploded because of wasteful stimulus spending. The govt could not keep spending like this. It is not surprising spending is starting to fall from large increases.

    Koukoulas is a fraud.

  270. Sorry to introduce facts here Neil, but government outlays under the last two Costello budgets were 24.7% & 24.8% of GDP.

    Swan’s first two budgets came in at 25.8% & 26.2% of GDP, in response to the GFC. (You should research how much the coalition was proposing should be spent at this time and how – ME has told you multiple times, but you won’t believe facts from non-Lieberal sources :roll: )

    Since then, government outlays have been 24.7%, 25.1%, and 23.7% of GDP. Ask any economist who knows what they’re talking about – this was absolutely the correct response to economic conditions over the last five years… There is much disagreement now as to whether going back so quickly to surplus from now on is the correct setting – time will tell I guess.

  271. No point in arguing with you Bacchus you are beyond hope.

    Robb was correct in his first “alleged” lie. You also shifted the topic. Spending increased rapidly in 2008-2009 due to wasteful GFC stimulus spending. Kooky says Robb told a lie because spending has slowed from 2010 to the present and is not increasing. It would want to slow. Increases in spending in 2008-2009 were not sustainable.

    Robb is correct and Kooky is wrong.

    Adrian owes Robb an apology.

  272. “this government is finally being bludgeoned by the fiscal consequence of years of reckless spending”

    Correct Neil, except the reckless spending was the ongoing middle class welfare and unsustainable tax cuts from the Howard / Costello years.

    You don’t seem to understand that one-off stimulus spending has virtually no effect on the budgets in subsequent years, whereas tax cuts and middle class welfare is an ongoing problem resulting in a structural ongoing problem. Mr Robb understands this & his deceit is in the way he’s trying to spin his bull$#!t.

    The Lieberals wanted to introduce more ongoing structural problems as their preferred response (tax cuts) to the GFC. We really escaped a bullet by having Labor in the chair during the GFC!

    You owe everyone here many apologies Neil :mrgreen:

  273. You don’t seem to understand that one-off stimulus spending has virtually no effect on the budgets in subsequent years,”

    Didn’t you read what Kooky said??

    In real terms, government spending fell 0.4% in 2010-11, rose 4.8% in 2011-12 and is forecast to fall a record 4.4% in 2012-13. That is an average annual growth of 0.0% for three years.

    The increase in spending was in 2008-09 has been maintained. It has been zero from 2010-2013 if we can believe an ALP forecast.

    and unsustainable tax cuts from the Howard / Costello years. ”

    Who says they were unsustainable?? Anyway Swan copied Costello’s tax cuts and put them as ALP policy in 2007. You own them now. You want to pass legislation increasing income tax I am sure The Greens would go for it.

    Why doesn’t the ALP do it?? Go for it Bacchus. Increase income tax and stop blaming the Coalition.

  274. Neil, here is the budget overview.

    http://www.budget.gov.au/2012-13/content/overview/html/overview_44.htm

    Take note of the receipts of Howards last full budget. Over $272B was collected and $329B was collected last year. I would say a $57B increase in five budgets would still be considered a river of gold.

    Check out the 2012-13…a projected increase of receipts of just under $39B in one year??? Now look at the payments increase since Howard’s last full budget to the spending last year. An increase in spending of $118B in five budgets.

    All egg, no chicken!

  275. Who says they were unsustainable??

    Oh FFS – if you have to ask that, you’re obviously WELL beyond your limits :roll:

    Perhaps you should also understand the relevance of the cut in government spending in real terms. This is something neither the Howard nor Fraser governments EVER did. Year on year on year, spending in real terms ALWAYS increased under the Lieberals. Receipts also continually increased – taxes will always be higher under a Lieberal government :lol:

    2007-08, if you recall, was before the GFC. We’d just had an election where the Labor party had promised to match the tax cuts promised by the Lieberas, which they didl.

    Receipts from Mr Costello’s last budget came in at a record 26.8% GDP. Along comes the GFC, mining companies (you know – the ones who supposedly saved us from the GFC) laid off staff, receipts fell to 23.7%, 22.2%, then 21.6% GDP. It is under these conditions that the unsustainability of what the Howard government had done became most obvious.

    It’s not necessary to increase income tax rates Neil – “bracket creep” is the automatic way this occurs over time. The MRRT and the carbon price will also increase revenue in the future, and slowly but surely winding back the largesse of the Howard years is happening.

    Another term of Labor government should hopefully undo all the harm Howard and his hammock-dwelling treasurer did to the country…

  276. From 2001-02 to 2006-07 (5 years), receipts increased $89.6Billion, 57% more than the increase over the last 5 years.

    An increase in spending – hmm, I wonder why that was…

    scaper, you’re only marginally better at spinning Lieberal bull$#!t than Neil :mrgreen:

  277. Receipts also continually increased – taxes will always be higher under a Lieberal government

    Hang on you just said Costello was wrong to lower taxes now you say he increased them. Can you make up your mind??

    You want to get more income tax?? Get rid of FWA and reinstate Howards IR laws and unemployment will drop by 0.5%. The govt will get more income tax from people with a job and will pay less in unemployment benefits.

    How is productivity going on the waterfront?? How is productivity going anywhere?? Bring back some of the Howard govt programs like Commercial Ready and companies can develop their products and start exporting.

    Oh and Koukoulas is a fraud.

  278. Bacchus
    “slowly but surely winding back the largesse of the Howard years is happening.

    Another term of Labor government should hopefully undo all the harm Howard and his hammock-dwelling treasurer did to the country…”

    You must be delusional man! You’re only marginally better at spinning labor propaganda than Swan, who is out of his depth completely!

  279. Bacchus…the Roman name for Dionysus, the god of wine and intoxication…the literature describes him as womanly or “man-womanish”….His procession (thiasus) is made up of wild female followers (maenads) and ithyphallic, bearded satyrs…

    Dionysus is represented by city religions as the protector of those who do not belong to conventional society and thus symbolizes everything which… escapes human reason and which can only be attributed to the unforeseeable action of the gods…

    Says it all really!

  280. Yes, the name calling is beginning. I was once again correct. I have just listened to over an hour to the MPI. Nothing new, same thing over and over and over.

    Mt Pyne was jumping up and down, wanting to refer someone to the privileges committee for alleged lies.

    Wonder if Pyne has worked out, such action can work both ways. I have sat here listening to lie after lie from the Opposition.

    If one does not believe, one is delusional. Not a bad debating technique, but does become a little tiresome after a while.

    As for the white paper, I have read much positive about it, from reliable sites. The
    The main concern is that it will not come about.

    Once again it is about building for a future, that is exciting.

    Nothing from the from the other side, except for demolishing Nothing but negativity.

  281. Another term of this bunch of economic retards and the country will go down the drain! In the last thirteen weeks they have borrowed $25B and used $2.5 to pay down maturing notes and bonds.

    Reminds me of idiots that take up another loan to make payments on an original loan…a shaky deck of cards. Here’s the real state of their borrowings.

    http://www.aofm.gov.au/default.asp?NavID=22

    The $255B plus is only the book value and this net debt bullshit is mostly reliant on the Future Fund component that can not be touched until into the next decade. Also comparing the government debt in GDP terms is bullshit. The government receipts are the real measure as they have to pay the debt down from revenue.

    If I ran someone’s company like this inept government I would be in prison! And I won’t mention the tens of billions that the government is running up in unfunded super for the Public Service.

    This government is breaking every rule that they expect business to follow.

  282. Another term of Labor government should hopefully undo all the harm Howard and his hammock-dwelling treasurer did to the country…”

    That really is a dishonest thing to say. Costello left govt with no Public debt, $50B in the kitty, unemployment at 4.3%, billions of dollars in various funds and apparently Costello is a failure.

  283. ” Increases in spending in 2008-2009 were not sustainable.”

    To keep things really simple Neil, can you tell us just why these, or any other spending increases for that matter, are “unsustainable”.

    You might care to tell us at what level, real or nominal, or ratio, they become “unsustainable”

    You might also like to tell us exactly what you expect to happen when spending becomes “unsustainable”.

    In short, what do you mean by “unsustainable” ?

  284. Well Labor was running $40B budget deficits during the GFC. I would say that is unsustainable. Surely it would get to the stage that people would stop lending us money to sustain deficits like that.

    But that is off topic. The topic was Andrew Robbs alleged lies according to Stephen Koukoulas.

    http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/cafe-talk-xii/#comment-114630

    Koukoulas says Robb is wrong to say we have had years of reckless spending because spending increases has been zero from 2010-2013. 2013 is a forecast figure. But I say Labor has locked in the increased spending and that Robb was right.

  285. “Well Labor was running $40B budget deficits during the GFC. I would say that is unsustainable. Surely it would get to the stage that people would stop lending us money to sustain deficits like that.”

    Neil, is it hard to understand, that there was no intention of that spending being sustainable. It was all one off spending, with strict guidelines as to when it would cease.

    It was spending to keep the economy ticking over during the GFC. It was aimed at keeping workers in jobs, and business from the bankruptcy courts.

    Since that time, there has been a cut back in spending. Yes there has been new spending, but only after cuts have been made in other areas.

    Next year we will be back to surplus, or at the worse close to surplus.

    Yes, the Australian economy is still affected by what occurs off our shores.

    Having a year or more of national disasters did not make getting back to surplus any easier.

    The rest of the world still has not recovered. For comparison, one needs to go back to the great depression of the 1930′s.

    Neil, just take those eyes off “debt” for a moment, and look at the economy in general. Every indicator is t5ravelling well. Better than in living memory.

  286. What is unsustainable is many of the schemes that Howard and Costello introduces, that were not means tested and benefitted the better off.

    What is unsustainable is the ongoing tax cuts to the wealthy and many businesses.

  287. CU

    I was asked an off-topic question which I gave an answer to.

    The actual topic is a post by Adrien where he said Robb was telling factual errors. Maybe he made some but the first alleged error was not an error. I am sick of ALP supporters saying Coalition MP’s are telling lies when they are not.

    Robb complained about years of reckless spending. Koukoulas says Robb is wrong because there has been no increase in spending since 2010. The increases happened in 2008 and 2009.

  288. Sorry, Neil, I cannot agree. I listen to matter of public importance today. One lie after another.

    As they get more desperate, the lies are becoming bolder. If one was a cynic, one could say, they do not care anymore.

    What I see, sitting behind the shadow front bench is the longest faces one could hope to see.

    Neil, Labor and the PM, like any other government has made many mistakes, has done much I do not agree with.

    What they are not guilty of, is producing a poor economy. The economy is strong on all fronts. That in itself is not the norm.

    Whether it is good luck or not, one can mount an argument. To say the economy is in strife, one cannot.

  289. Just a little bit of light hearted humor pointed at the Liberal Party, and only malcon could see the joke.

  290. Shame on you for creating another great post!
    Awesome stuff, continue the nice work. I see
    many possibility! I wonder if you’re an active user with any social network sites like Digg or maybe Stumble Upon? Many thanks, to you!

Leave a Comment

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s