Café Talk XI

Here we are at Page 11. Keep talking about anything you want.

623 comments on “Café Talk XI

  1. I’ll stop talking about the weather when you lot get over your persecution of the monk, in the meantime let’s discuss energy.

    ‘A MAJOR brown-coal power station in Victoria’s Latrobe Valley will cut production by operating only three of its four units, prompting new warnings that the federal renewable energy target is threatening the sustainability of the electricity market.

    ‘The Australian can reveal that Energy Australia will today announce it will scale back electricity generation at the Gippsland-based Yallourn power station. The company says the carbon price, which started on July 1, is driving up operating costs while wholesale electricity prices are weak and demand for electricity is plunging.’

    Annabel Hepworth and Pia Akerman in the Oz.

  2. The builder of the national broadband network (NBN Co) says more consumers are wanting faster broadband speeds than originally forecast.

    NBN Co chief communications officer Kieren Cooney told a parliamentary hearing that those connected to Labor’s $37.4 billion network have selected quicker speeds than previous forecasts from the government-owned enterprise.

    ‘We felt then (in May’s budget estimates) and we feel now to a certain degree that is a reflection of early adopters,’ he said in Canberra on Tuesday.

    Head of product development Jim Hassell said the highest share of NBN cable broadband connections, 44 per cent, was on the highest speed of 100 megabits per second (Mbps) download/40Mbps upload.

    In NBN Co’s updated corporate plan released in August 2012, it forecast 18 per cent on the top 100 Mbps download offering.

    Mr Hassell said next popular was 25 Mbps download on 34 per cent of active services, while 15 per cent was for the entry level 12 Mbps download/one Mbps upload.

    The take up of subscribers on the entry level 12 Mbps/1Mbps was forecast to be 49 per cent.

    NBN Co forecast around 28 per cent on 25Mbps download, with around five per cent on 50 Mbps

    http://www.skynews.com.au/national/article.aspx?id=806522

    el gordo, point out one lie that we have made against the monk. We do not even use that name.

    In fact we spend more time talking about the good things this government has achieved.

  3. El Gordo
    Energy is the downfall of the alarm driven Left. With almost 16 years of no warming the time has come to review the whole box and dice. Not only no warming but no appreciable rise in sea levels, huge increase in Antarctic ice and indeed overall global sea ice has left the global warming/climate change/climate disruption/dirty weather movement clutching at straws.
    Germany’s switch to renewable energies is driving up electricity bills across the country, with a green technology surcharge set to rise by nearly 50 percent next year when 800.000 German households struggle to pay their electricity bills now.

    Wake up Victoria!

  4. CU

    On the NBN…this quote is instructive:
    “The network said it had passed 32,295 existing premises, an extra 3295 in two months. Around 54,300 homes would be passed by year end and 286,000 by June 2013″

    Not much to crow about and hardly anything to derive trends from!

  5. No, referring to the pot (Treetroll) calling the kettle (those who use fact, truth and reason) black!

    Sad really :sad: :evil: :sad:

  6. ‘those who use fact, truth and reason’

    Neither side will accept the other point of view, yet it still offers an opportunity to create a dynamic.

  7. The government is beginning to look extremely shrewd in its decision to can the plan of paying coal generators to close via ‘contracts for closure’. News this morning has filtered through that Energy Australia (formerly TRUenergy) will be shutting one of its four generators at the 1450 MW Yallourn power station. The decision will see around 360 MW of capacity sidelined.
    While the carbon price appears too weak to transform Australia’s electricity supply in itself, in a pincer movement with falling demand, driven in part by greater energy-efficiency and manufacturing restructuring, as well as the injection of additional supply from the Renewable Energy Target – coal power units are falling like flies.
    The Energy Australia decision follows similar announcements at several coal-fired power plants across the country, with coal-fired power being sidelined in Australia’s four biggest states this year. Other plants to completely or partially shut down include Tarong (Qld), Munmorah (NSW)*, Energy Brix (Vic), Playford (SA) and Northern (S……….

    http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/yallourn-latest-coal-casualty?utm_source=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily

  8. Notice how the trolls raised their heads when things are not going too good for their hero.

    I count the number of trolls and am reassured that Mr. Abbott might be heading for trouble.

  9. I do have some trolling tendencies

    , indeed eg :grin:

    wrt to the claims made by david rose in the daily mail link you provided on the other thread, you will be interested to find out that the UK Met Office appears to think it has been misrepresented (again) by rose, and the daily mail.

    It is the second article Mr Rose has written which contains some misleading information, after he wrote an article earlier this year on the same theme

    and SKS provides a more detailed rebuttal of rose’s fantasies, for those only interested in the science.

  10. Yeah, Rose always gets a shalacking (sic) from the klimatariat. I’ll check out that SKS link a little later.

  11. I like the escalator, so I’ll put it up for discussion.

    The other thing is the noise to signal ratio ,,, this remains hotly contested and debated widely.

  12. The 100 tons of iron sulphate dumped into the ocean by a US businessman, in the business of carbon credits, is going down like a lead balloon.

  13. ‘CAMPAIGNERS on important but complex issues, annoyed by the length of time required for public deliberations, often react by exaggerating their claims, hoping to force a single solution to the forefront of public debate. But however well intentioned, scaring the public into a predetermined solution often backfires: when people eventually realise that they have been misled, they lose confidence and interest.’

    Bjorn Lomborg in the Oz

  14. Mr. Abbott trip was in my opinion a failure that will come back to haunt him.

    …It is difficult to imagine John Howard, under current circumstances, robustly pushing at home a policy he knew was rousing hostility in Jakarta. If that was the case, he would want to sort out the issue first and not leave it hanging.

    Tony Abbott has left tow-them-back as an unresolved matter which will force its way into every engagement he has with the Indonesians until they accept the policy or he drops it. It’s not a good start to what he hopes will be a beautiful friendship.

    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/a-tow-them-backflip-no-just-more-angry-pollies/

  15. Mo “Wow Treeman is a judge of threads now and posters, and proves a massive failure on both counts.” ….. Tea-man only bags ( no pun intended)out posters here ’cause he cant do it at his own blog because nobody bothers to make any comments…… tea-bag party in Oz seems to have been *tossed* overboard….. *fail*

  16. It is difficult to imagine John Howard, under current circumstances, robustly pushing at home a policy he knew was rousing hostility in Jakarta.”

    Why so?? Apparently the Howard govt turned the odd boat back knowing that the Indonesians would not like it. Howard turned some boats back and Indonesia just accepted it.

    Perhaps Farr is telling lies

  17. Wow the taxpayer has paid 17 lawyers to defend Peter Slipper. Luckily it was an ALP govt spending taxpayers money like this otherwise you lot would have complained about such a waste of money

  18. ‘HOUSEHOLD power bills would be reduced by up to $250 a year and the NSW government could save more than $1 billion in infrastructure spending under a raft of changes proposed to the electricity market including full privatisation, smarter regulation and more choice for consumers.

    ‘A report to be released today by the Productivity Commission backs the argument advanced by the Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, that the main driver of power prices has been spiralling network costs caused by over investment in poles and wires, rather than the carbon price.’

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/power-bills-to-fall-250-with-electricity-reforms-20121017-27rnz.html#ixzz29aXKJCNU

  19. But wait there’s more…

    ‘NSW, Queensland and Tasmania should privatise their energy networks because state ownership has saddled them with higher wage rates, greater employee benefits and job security out of kilter with private utilities.

    ‘The Productivity Commission, in a review commissioned by the Gillard government, says public ownership has also left the last of the state-owned networks on the national grid with costly local procurement plans.’

    Annabel Hepworth in the Oz

  20. “At present, governments’ attempts to limit greenhouse-gas emissions through carbon cap-and-trade schemes and to promote renewable and sustainable energy sources are probably too late to arrest the inevitable trend of global warming,” the scientists write in a paper published online in the scientific journal, Nature Climate Change, on Monday, 14 October 2012.’

  21. New paper confirms the climate was warmer 1000 years ago.

    http://www.clim-past.net/8/765/2012/cp-8-765-2012.html

    Another new paper cuts recent anthropogenic warming trend in half.

    http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JAS-D-12-0208.1

    “This paper will add fuel to the recent discussions about the nature of the global warming trend and whether it recently has stabilized or not. The authors by the way conclude it has not. Their main conclusions however is:

    When the AMO is included, in addition to the other explanatory variables such as ENSO, volcano and solar influences commonly included in the multiple linear regression analysis, the recent 50-year and 32-year anthropogenic warming trends are reduced by a factor of at least two. There is no statistical evidence of a recent slow-down of global warming, nor is there evidence of accelerated warming since the mid-20th century”

    No wonder climate change is off the agenda in US pre election debate and will be no surprise if Gillard’s carbon tax gets quietly dumped before Abbott gets a chance to do so.
    The greatest moral challenge of our time in true perspective….

  22. ‘Gillard’s carbon tax gets quietly dumped before Abbott gets a chance to do so.’

    That would pip the monk at the post, but its unlikely to happen. It might require a recant of the mantra, which carries huge political risks in itself.

  23. Treeman the tipping point (if it exists) from the MWP to LIA is mooted to be around 1230 AD. Do you have a theory on this?

  24. Tipping points…tools of the alarmists who are trying to airbrush out the MWP! For mine, much of the puff has gone out of the CO2/warming connection now, to the point that we’re approaching a complete rethink. A great time to be a political observer as the alarmist camp squirms as their basic tenets crumble…

  25. The catastrophists are on the run, but the klimatariat remains a formidable obstacle.

    Debriefing will require many years of hard work and much levity.

    ‘Tipping points…tools of the alarmists’…marks you out as a sceptic.

  26. @treetroll
    not too sure of your comprehension skills, given the second paper that you linked to (and quoted) ie

    There is no statistical evidence of a recent slow-down of global warming, nor is there evidence of accelerated warming

    pretty much destroys ther contention that agw is not happening

    as for the first paper, while of interest, it seems to be irrelevant, at best, – in order to understand why see HERE

    for those who fail to understand the nature of TIPPINGPOINTS read and learn :grin:

  27. there are 2 wiki links there, eg – i should have put a space between TIPPING and POINTS :oops:
    you are wrong, of course – here’s a quick demo – take a glass of water – knock it over – an irreversible change has occurred – the water is all over the table, the glass is horizontal (or broken) – the system “glass of water”, has just undergone a “tipping point”, this tipping point has little to do with agw, however :grin:

  28. According to that wiki link only global warming has a ‘tipping point’….that’s a relief.

    Try reading at least the first line of a provided link grodo

    For other uses, see Tipping point (disambiguation).

  29. Macquarie catches up with the Oxford.

    But what it left on the floor was misogyny – with a new meaning. The established meaning of misogyny is ‘hatred of women” but this is a rarefied term that goes back to the 1600s in English that acquired the status of a psychological term in the late 1800s when its counterpart misandry was coined. Both terms refer to pathological hatreds.

    Since the 1980s misogyny has come to be used as a synonym for sexism – a synonym with bite but nevertheless with the meaning of ‘entrenched prejudice against women’ rather than ‘pathological hatred of women’.

    It seems to be used for an underlying frame of mind or an attitude of which sexism is the outward form, displayed in language, discriminating policies, workplace injustices, etc.

    The recent debate brought this to the attention of the Macquarie Dictionary editors. The extended meaning was not created in that debate, just made highly visible by it. We felt the need to keep the record of the language up to date, and to adjust the entry at misogyny to cover its current use.

    There is some history to this in the U.S. Hilary Clinton complained of misogyny directed towards her in her campaign against Barack Obama. A debate similar to the one we have had in Australia followed that remark and came to the same conclusion, that misogyny had developed a second meaning.

    I guess that this is another instance of Australian English following American English – in the context of feminist debate that seems highly likely.

    The Oxford English Dictionary online adjusted its definition of the word in 2002 by adding ‘dislike of or prejudice against women’ to the existing definition ‘hatred of women’. I have chosen in the Macquarie Dictionary to give two separate meanings for the word. It seems awkward to toss in hatred and prejudice as definitional bedfellows. They don’t mean the same thing …

    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/Theres-more-than-one-way-to-define-a-catcall/

    My emphasis.

    Pity the media did not do any research before mouthing off.

  30. Looks like the Carbon Price is doing its job

    THE carbon tax has helped to drive a sharp fall in the emissions intensity of Australia’s power generation as coal-fired stations are closed, moth-balled or sell less electricity.

    I particularly agree with this point

    But energy analyst Hugh Saddler said that, at its current level, the carbon price was ”more important as a statement of intent”.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/power-pollution-plunges-20121017-27rn9.html#ixzz29bsuUNjz

    It isn’t the ‘python squeeze’ or any other zoological analogy, but it is a very powerful statement, and a very strong sense of leadership in reducing emissions, something this country has previously been lacking.

  31. …………..There is a belief that as editor I can do whatever I like with the dictionary but that is not true. I am constrained by the evidence for the use of a word which must be there to justify inclusion.

    As we live our dictionary lives we are alerted to new words and new meanings in a whole variety of sources. It doesn’t matter what the starting point is. Once a word is up for consideration we need to assess whether there is evidence for the use of this word in the language community.

    It can’t be one person’s word or a mistake or a private invention or an attempt to twist a meaning for devious reasons. There was plenty of evidence for the use of misogyny in the sense of ‘prejudice’ as opposed to ‘pathological hatred’ and so, on the basis of that evidence, we added the second definition. The first definition remains so it is not that we have scrapped that meaning, just that we have added a second meaning…….

    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/Theres-more-than-one-way-to-define-a-catcall/

  32. Tom, you must be wrong, Mr, Abbott said that is not so, especially in Victoria. It is the flood that has caused the decrease.

    I do not know if he was asked, if the floods were the cause of some powerhouses being moth-balled.

  33. ‘…there is a risk of “irreversible and abrupt environmental change”.

    Generally the system works well with the positive and negative feedbacks, so I don’t believe in catastrophism.

    If the denialati are correct then we should begin to experience what it was like moving from the MWP to the LIA…we are in that transition period.

    Nothing is ever the same, so it has become a hobby of mine to pin point roughly where we are in the timeline.

  34. so I don’t believe in catastrophism.

    a religious belief perhaps :lol:

    no doubt the DINOSAURS didn’t either

    If the denialati are correct

    seems very unlikely, as they remain unable to produce the science needed to prosecute their fantasies.

  35. From that link…

    ‘Similarly, because of the increase in adaptive capacity globally, global death rates from extreme weather events have declined by 98% since the 1920s.’

    Adaptation is what humans are good at.

  36. From Pet’s link…

    ‘Sea-level falls are associated with most of the mass extinctions, including all of the
    “Big Five”—End-Ordovician, Late Devonian, End-Permian, End-Triassic, and End-Cretaceous.’

    That’s global cooling.

  37. Been laid a bit low this week with a touch of gastro, so the doc ordered a bland diet – no meat, no dairy, no alcohol, nothing spicy, nothing that actually tastes any good :(
    About now, I’m hungry enough to eat the crutch out of a low flying duck :lol:

    Watch out Migs! :mrgreen:

  38. el gordo, love your work, it saved me time. A reformed environmentalist am I. Gone is the bumper sticker “Subvert the Dominant Paradigm” and the Save Gaia stickers. It happened when the CO2/global warming hypothesis started to get traction. A lifetime growing trees in the wake of two generations of foresters was always going to determine my course. CO2 is the gas of life!

  39. Tipping Points in perspective…just a theory to support anthropogenic global warming which is increasingly shaky as there has been no warming for sixteen years…

    If a positive water vapor feedback response existed in the climate system, you’d expect both the specific and relative humidity to increase with time. It didn’t. This ends up putting the kibosh on the idea of tipping points, and a lack of positive water vapor feedback pretty much takes all the scare out of CO2 induced climate change.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/02/08/support-for-the-saturated-greenhouse-effect-leaves-the-likelihood-of-agw-tipping-points-in-the-cold/

    A growing body of recent research indicates that, in Earth’s warming climate, there is no “tipping point,” or threshold warm temperature, beyond which polar sea ice cannot recover if temperatures come back down. New University of Washington research indicates that even if Earth warmed enough to melt all polar sea ice, the ice could recover if the planet cooled again.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/08/17/still-no-polar-ice-tipping-points-ahead/

    When just 10 percent of the population holds an unshakable belief, their belief will always be adopted by the majority of the society

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/07/27/tipping-points-and-beliefs/

    What we have here, is “settled science” in action.

    http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/06/20/tipping-points-easy-come-easy-go/

  40. We are all environmentalists at heart, but the AGW fraud has dudded the movement.

    The EU plans to cut back on food for fuel, better late than never.

    ‘BRUSSELS — Europe is considering limiting the amount of food-based biofuels that can count toward its renewable fuel targets while a drought in the U.S. has pushed up food prices worldwide and millions around the world go hungry.

    ‘As part of an effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, the European Union had previously decided that 10 percent of the fuel used for transport in the 27-country bloc must come from renewable sources by 2020.’

    Washington Post

  41. “A reformed environmentalist am I” :???: ………. WTF :lol: :lol: :lol: (sounds like something from the Mikado) :D

  42. Tipping point will be reached in Australia on 6/11/12……sure to see the signs sweep in as the date gets closer….. keep your eye on Melbourne around that time ( thats my tip ) ;) ….

  43. What a fucking laugh and how gullible are the wingnuts.

    The UK Met Office has released a response saying that they did not put out the story of climate change stopping 16 years ago and the story isn’t true.

    Looks like it was another right wing fabrication just as they fabricate everything they do or say. Can’t go through life being honest and open yet accuse everyone else of lying.

    They are the greatest walking joke on the planet.

  44. The article says the UK Met Office sent out a news release release saying its data showed that global warming has stopped and that there is no “discernible rise in aggregate global temperatures.” It now comes to light that this information is not true. The UK Met Office did not release a statement suggesting that “global warming stopped 16 years ago.” The UK Met Office, in fact, disavows any association with Mr. Rose and his article and says it was never asked any questions regarding the actual science of climate change and global warming by Mr. Rose. On October 14, 2012 – one day after Mr. Rose’s article appeared in the Daily Mail

    We can’t win debates and discussions on facts so let’s make things up and watch all the gullible gormless goonie right wingers jump on it without verifying the veracity. Should be a good laugh for a bit.

  45. Oh and the chart el gordo used in proving global warming had ceased 16 years ago is bullshit. It was produced by someone who had previously published a chart that proved to be falsified.

  46. ‘FAIL. Using WUWT as a source is always an automatic failure.’

    Treeman doesn’t realise the insensitivity of putting up Watts, but if you could just take the time to skim through the links… it will give a better idea of what the discussion is all about.

  47. ‘The UK Met Office did not release a statement suggesting that “global warming stopped 16 years ago.” The UK Met Office, in fact, disavows any association with Mr. Rose and his article…’

    The Klimatariat has to keep the act together for a few more years and pray like mad that it starts getting warmer soon.

  48. ‘It was produced by someone who had previously published a chart that proved to be falsified.’

    The hockey stick?

  49. “What a fucking laugh and how gullible are the wingnuts.
    ME resorts to ad homs and cherry picked quotes but with respect to the Met Office report… “Some climate scientists, such as Professor Phil Jones, director of the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, last week dismissed the significance of the plateau, saying that 15 or 16 years is too short a period from which to draw conclusions.
    Others disagreed. Professor Judith Curry, who is the head of the climate science department at America’s prestigious Georgia Tech university, told The Mail on Sunday that it was clear that the computer models used to predict future warming were ‘deeply flawed’.
    Even Prof Jones admitted that he and his colleagues did not understand the impact of ‘natural variability’ – factors such as long-term ocean temperature cycles and changes in the output of the sun. However, he said he was still convinced that the current decade would end up significantly warmer than the previous two”
    Now here’s the thing: Met office states “eight of the warmest years on record have occurred in the past decade”

    Many of the highest points on a sine-wave, will be near the crest of the wave. That does not imply that the sine-wave is not in decline from thereon in.
    Did these guys ever get beyond kindergarten?

    Of course. All of them did. They aren’t ignorant.

    They are dishonest.

    ME, the jury is still out and ad homs will win you no friends anywhere…

  50. ‘the computer models used to predict future warming were ‘deeply flawed’.’

    This is the crux of the matter and out of this we end up with a draconian tax, an impost on business, but worst of all is the denigration of CO2 as a pollutant.

  51. Oh for fuck sake el gordo so now it’s back to the crap conspiracy again.

    You are wrong again. Yet again you fell for a sham by the right and big energy on climate change, jumped in with both feet and failed, as is your norm.

    Dr Roy Spencer, now I know you have having a joke. There is no reality there just as there was no reality with claiming the Met had proven the globe had stopped warming. It’s all made up by people who under the pay of vested interests. Just trace them back, you can find info to his masters.

    As I’ve done proving el gordo wrong so many times here is the reality Part 1, and there’s lots of parts to discredit Spencer: Roy Spencer’s Great Blunder, Part 1

    As I keep saying why do the right wingers have to resort to shams, deceits and lies to win their arguments? If they truly believed they were right and their narrow minded backward looking conservative view was the correct one they could argue the point using credible facts and honesty. That they don’t says a lot about them.

  52. And you do know that Spencer says that global warming is a fact, he (falsely and deceitfully) argues that it’s natural variability.

    Oh and by the way that graph of Spencer’s has been disproved, which I’ve pointed out to el gordo, but that never stopped the right going ahead and continuing to push shit uphill.

  53. This is your supposed impartial Spencer, who gets paid far more to discredit AGW than any climate scientist out there gets paid to do the science.

    Dr. Spencer is on the board of directors of the George C. Marshall Institute, a right-wing conservative think tank on scientific issues and public policy. He listed as an expert for the Heartland Institute, a libertarian American public policy think tank. Dr. Spencer is also listed as an expert by the International Climate and Environmental Change Assessment Project (ICECAP), a global warming “skeptic” organization.

  54. And here’s a real graph for you, and I’ll even do an el gordo and not post the full article, just the graph, but this one so aptly carries its context within it.

  55. Mo you should seek professional help.

    On an entirely different subject, what are the odds that the Ruddster will make a comeback?

  56. I do like that graph because it shows the break points.

    Whereas Spencer is showing the sine wave, but I accept both as legitimate.

  57. Hang on el gordo, you don’t detract and side step that easily.

    You jumped on the supposed Met release stating the planet had not warmed in 16 years and I was willing to contend that fact and even stated I hoped it was true. I then did something you never do and that is go looking for the facts and to the source, the Met office. I knew something was up as the search returns were swamped by right wing blogs and forums all doing what you have, that is quote without going to the source the sham Met article. Took a little but I found the detraction and the discrediting of the graph and other data falsely tabled by Rose.

    It’s turned out to be a sham perpetrated by the right wingers you adore and have hooked your lot to, having once claimed to be a Labor supporter and voter.

    So do you now contend your claim using the deliberate falsified Met announcement was wrong?

    If anyone needs professional help here it’s definitely you, jumping from one contention to another and sticking with disproved information, right wing shammers and then darting off onto another tact whenever something inconvenient is posted or your single paragraph trolling is called out, like your very lame Rudd sentence. Weak effort.

  58. in solid agreement with you, Mo
    treetroll – you should really try a bit of reading (and comprehension) before you repeat rose’s discredited claims viz.

    Professor Judith Curry, who is the head of the climate science department at America’s prestigious Georgia Tech university, told The Mail on Sunday that it was clear that the computer models used to predict future warming were ‘deeply flawed’.

    you do realise that she has since claimed that rose has misquoted her, particularly wrt to the “deeply flawed” attributed to her

    Rose also quotes Professor Judith Curry, head of the climate research centre at Georgia Institute of Technology in the United States. Curry wrote about the article in her blog yesterday and echoed the same sentiments when Carbon Brief contacted her. She told us that at no point in her interview with Rose did she describe climate models as ‘deeply flawed’ or say that she disagreed with Jones that 16 years is not long enough to draw any conclusions.

    from HERE

    once again, clueless denialists relying on lies and misrepresentation to peddle their hysterical fantasies to their gullible followers, and remain still unable to produce any supporting SCIENCE for their irrational beliefs

  59. Yes el gordo according to just about every other agency and the Met Office UK, who say though the warming has slowed, as it has done in previous 10-15 year periods, the trend as always has still been warming with a measurable contribution by man produced carbon. The next 10-15 period could very well show a return to an increased warming trend.

  60. @treetroll

    Tipping Points in perspective…just a theory to support anthropogenic global warming which is increasingly shaky as there has been no warming for sixteen years…

    showing your ignorance and gullibillity there – did you miss the example of a tipping point i gave (11:09 am) to your hive mate eg?

    you seem to suffer, like eg from a bad case of the DUNNING-KRUGER EFFECT

  61. Ah…Dunning Kruger, a double edged sword.

    So the supposed extra warmth around the time of christ and in the Medieval era is nonsense?

  62. The whole claim falls to pieces as there has been continued warming over the last 16 years as confirmed by the very sensors that were falsely claimed of giving data that showed there had been no warming.

    If the claim of no warming for years has been proven to be a sham perpetrated by a person who has shammed previously then anything based on the data from that sham is wrong, or as is more likely deliberately misleading.

  63. So the supposed extra warmth around the time of christ and in the Medieval era is nonsense?

    We have gone over that one as well el gordo, but now you are using it to distract because you won’t address the fact that you were wrong on the Met UK claim. You fell for the sham but won’t fess up to that.

    At least I was willing to admit I was wrong, and more than that, hope the UK Met information was right, but you for whatever reason hold on the false and flawed information perpetrated by vested and ideological interests.

  64. So the supposed extra warmth around the time of christ and in the Medieval era is nonsense irrelevant

    ……there, fixed for you :lol:

  65. The final words on the Met UK scam.

    So … it is still warming after all. In fact, in a report released by the National Climatic Data Center this week, global land and ocean surface temperatures for the month of September 2012 tied with 2005 as the warmest September on record, at 0.67 degrees Celsius (1.21 degrees Fahrenheit) above the 20th century average of 15.0 degrees Celsius (59.0 degrees Fahrenheit). It appears that the rate of warming has slowed slightly at this time; in other words, at the moment, it’s not increasing in warmth as fast as it was. Temperatures remain at all-time highs since records began, however, and our warming climate continues to break its own records.

    Bottom line: On October 13, 2012, the Daily Mail posted an article crediting the UK Met Office with saying that global warming stopped 16 years ago. The article went viral this week. One day later, however, the UK Met Office disavowed the Daily Mail article, saying it did not say global warming had stopped and was not contacted by the article’s author.

    http://en.es-static.us/upl/2012/10/Global-and-land-mean-temperatures-January-through-December.png

  66. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, the Medieval warming and Roman warming are irrelevant in the Fundamentalist mind.

    When was the last time the world was this warm?

  67. As the research has been going on for at least thirty years, world wide, there would be at hundreds of models over that time.

    I would also imagine the 97% of scientist would always be developing new models.

    When the denialist say the models are flawed, the inference that is given, that there are only one or two.

    A conspiracy on this scale would be impossible.

  68. The world, as far as I know has cooled and warmed over time. It has never warmed is such a short time. That is the difference. What is occurring now is not the norm. Has not occurred before.

  69. ‘When the denialist say the models are flawed, the inference that is given, that there are only one or two.’

    We are essentially only interested in the IPCC models going back 30 years.

    “We’ve already seen almost the equivalent of a doubling of CO2 (in radiative forcing) and that has produced very little warming.”

    Richard Lindzen

    What he’s saying is that the IPCC models do not support real world observations.

  70. Clearly its flawed.

    Well, it is from whatthefucksupwiththat, so the probability of it being flawed rises exponentially.

    Did you want to address the points ME raised about the warming in the past 16 years, or like all other denialist claims, ignore it and move on to the next false flag?

    I can also see the ‘not warmed for 16 years’ meme being pulled out again in the future, completely ignorant of the fact that, again, the denialati have been caught out lying their little asses off.

    I haven’t read any of it yet, but commentators who I value much higher than denialists claim that it is a damning indictment on the libs attacks against the Carbon Price.

    http://www.pc.gov.au/projects/inquiry/electricity/draft

  71. The past 16 years shows a flatness, a plateau, but that’s only in my imagination. According to my Fundamentalist associates the hockey stick is still current and Michael Mann is the equivalent of St Paul.

  72. The Gergis et al paper has finally been withdrawn, but hopefully it will return with the MWP back where it belongs.

    Air brushing the past is not a good look, yet we can all take strength in the fact that post normal science is here to stay.

  73. Meanwhile Gergis et al flounder between quietly withdrawing and ridicule. Held to account by “denialists” are those at the pinnacle of Australia’s climate science fraternity!

    http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/2012/10/18/updates-journal-of-climate-adds-info-about-withdrawn-hot-temps-paper-chemistry-journal-corrects-retraction-notice/

    The authors are performing detailed reanalysis of the data for the above paper and will submit the revised paper to the journal as soon as possible, likely before the end of September.

    “Due to errors discovered in this paper during the publication process,
    it was withdrawn by the authors prior to being published in final form.”

    Scientific study resubmitted.

    An issue has been identified in the processing of the data used in the study, “Evidence of unusual late 20th century warming from an Australasian temperature reconstruction spanning the last millennium” by Joelle Gergis, Raphael Neukom, Ailie Gallant, Steven Phipps and David Karoly, accepted for publication in the Journal of Climate.

    The manuscript has been re-submitted to the Journal of Climate and is being reviewed again

  74. Well said el gordo. I see you have been copping vitriol from the misguided overnight…interesting behaviour emerges when alarmists are cornered.

  75. The Gergis et al paper has finally been withdrawn

    The difference between scientists and denialists

    Scientists admit to their mistakes. denialists save them to be used later.

  76. CU
    Imagination has nothing whatsoever to do with it!

    “As the research has been going on for at least thirty years, world wide, there would be at hundreds of models over that time.
    I would also imagine the 97% of scientist would always be developing new models.
    When the denialist say the models are flawed, the inference that is given, that there are only one or two”

    What is happening here is that the modelling does not stack up against observational data. Its a classic case of garbage in garbage out. During my time in punch card and paper tape systems the term was in use and it holds sway today, particularly when it comes to calling pseudo science to account. That calling to account is happening on a daily basis now is telling.

  77. You are still attempting to distract el gordo and because of that have become irrelevant and doing nothing but trolling.

    We have covered the Mediaval and Roman warming periods before and if you just took a little time to look there’s plenty of (real) science out there explaining those local, not global, warming events.

    Of course you will continue to ignore the fact you jumped on the sham Met information with unhealthy relish, as did right wingers and wingnuts around the globe in a viral attack against climate science without for a second bothering to check with the supposed source of the information, the UK Met Office, nor looking at where the data and graph came from, Rose, a known prevaricator and deceiver.

    You will not in the least bit conceed you are wrong though time and again, too many times now to count, you are proven to be wrong or shown where the information you continously post is wrong. At least on the initial look at what you had posted and doing some searching I was willing to conceed the AGW theory had been empiracally proved false by the UK Met Office, more than that I was hoping you were right and the climate science was wrong. But no it was just another right wing sham perpetrated by vested interest groups who are doing everything they can to derail the real science, with WUWT right at the top of that lot.

    You screwed up el gordo, again. It’s as simple as that.

  78. Wrong Treeman, the observational data is stacking up against many of the models, but hey you just continue to play denialist ostrich.

    What about the sham UK Met data Treeman, you jumped on it as well?

  79. Yes Tom, and the climate scientists have done that throughout the decades of the AGW debate, and they have been heavily lambasted for it by the denialists.

    Shoe on other foot. No matter how many times you show where the denialists are wrong, where their sources have been discredited and the data they use revealed as a sham they ignore it all and move onto the next bit of proven bullshit, changing their memes and tacts as quickly as a rabbit changes directions fleeing a fox.

  80. You just love ad homs ME. Angry alarmists are most amusing. Maybe it comes with the territory…

    The Met Office spinning its way out of the current flatlining of warming. Today, we see evidence of the goalposts being moved again as the met Office tries to paint this lack of warming “plateau” as being insignificant:

    “The models exhibit large variations in the rate of warming from year to year and over a decade, owing to climate variations such as ENSO, the Atlantic Multi-Decadal Oscillation and Pacific Decadal Oscillation. So in that sense, such a period is not unexpected. It is not uncommon in the simulations for these periods to last up to 15 years, but longer periods are unlikely”

    So we are at 16 years, soon to be 17 years. What happens when we hit 20 years?

    Either the models are worth something or they aren’t. In this case it seems they aren’t.

  81. I can also see the ‘not warmed for 16 years’ meme being pulled out again in the future, completely ignorant of the fact that, again, the denialati have been caught out lying their little asses off.

    Well, that didn’t take long

    The Met Office spinning its way out of the current flatlining of warming.

    Nothing like an early morning laugh to get the day going ;)

  82. Yes Tom, the laugh is on you. I can sense a last laugh going down sometime soon as more and more alarmist scientists are exposed for guilding the lily in return for fat government funding. Follow the money….Gergis et al have had a tidy sum.

  83. You are in complete denial whilst using ad hominems Treeman. Usual right wing projection.

    The UK Met Office is not spinning away the flat lining, the whole thing is a sham perpetrated by a person who has prevaricated evidence and reports before.

    But you just keep your head in the sand and ignore the sham, though it’s very telling that like el gordo you were more than willing to take the supposed UK Met Office information as absolute fact when it seemed confirmed your very narrow minded and erroneous view of global warming, but now can the real UK Met information as bull.

    You can’t have it both ways. If you believed the UK Met had veracity when you thought a report that was supposed to be from them confirmed your wrong point of view you can’t just turn around and now say the UK Met has no veracity because the report turned out to be sham.

  84. el gordo, a timely call indeed. Flawed proxies are the alarmists favourite lily guilder. Case in question one tree Briffa. This comment from Brian H says it all…This study has to be one of the most iconic demonstrations of confirmation bias evah! Assuming they believed what they wrote, and weren’t just trying to slip one past everyone. (Fat chance with Steve M. on the case!)

  85. Yes you just distract again el gordo and ignore you won’t address that you took a sham report as fact and attempted to shove that down our throats as a denigration but now aren’t honest and credible enough to admit you were wrong.

  86. Who said I wanted anything both way Mobius. I merely have not responded in the way you want me to. There is more than ample evidence out there without the Rose article to suggest a flatlining of global temps for the last 15 years or more, but it seems you’re not that well read!

  87. Another early morning laugh…http://idm.net.au/article/009318-hopes-emerge-slater-gordon-lost-file

    At least some of the documents relating to the union “slush fund” established by the Prime Minister when working for law firm Slater & Gordon 20 years ago could be recovered, as they may still exist in the archives of the Department of Commerce (WA)….The Department of Commerce WA, as it is now known, has confirmed that all records relating to Associations since 1987 have been retained as physical files and also scanned to microfiche.

    “[The] Department has only destroyed 16 out of the 710 records boxes that are currently held offsite and relate to Associations. These boxes relate to files from 1971 – 1987.” a spokesman said.

    Watching this space we all should be!

  88. Möbius Ecko
    Before we make assertions “denial” you need to first substantiate what is being denied. The Gergis paper that was recently withdrawn had multiple failings. Proper review procedures would have rejected it. More recent proxy studies with larger numbers of proxies and better techniques are showing that there is nothing unusual about C20th warming.

  89. ‘you took a sham report as fact and attempted to shove that down our throats as a denigration’

    As Treeman said, we are already up to speed on what is happening with CC and Rose’s article is not all that important. The temperature trend is slightly down over the past 16 years and the sine wave gives us confidence that cooler times are ahead.

  90. Where would you be without WUWT el gordo? You can’t source any real and credited climate science so use discredited stuff under the pay of vested interests.

    Says it all.

    So does the distraction of one second giving credibility to a renowned climate organisation because you thought it had confirmed your erroneous point of view and then the next second disowning it and ignoring its information.

    That same organisation is still just as credible as when you thought it backed your denial stance el gordo and it contends the globe is warming with man contributing to that warming.

  91. Carbon Tax NOT the great big wrecking ball of the economy. And I suppose some thanks must go to Tony Abbott for talking the economy down. Well according to the reasoning of the AMP chief economist, that is

    “AMP chief economist Dr Shane Oliver said that while the GST covered most consumer goods, the carbon tax affected relatively few items.

    He said the GST had been introduced at a time of strong consumer confidence and high inflation, a sharp contrast to the present environment.

    “The key is, I think, the carbon tax was introduced at a time of consumer price resistance in Australia, where retailers were having discounts,” he said.

    “So it is of no surprise that the impact of the carbon tax is certainly a lot less than might have been expected.”

    http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-business/carbon-tax-price-lift-not-on-gst-scale-20121019-27vtt.html

  92. it seems there’s more than enough trolls about to make up a derangement.

    funny how they are seeking to resurrect their old, and refuted lies and return to the same old, tired denialist fantasies in their attempts at relevance.

    its clearly a waste of time to attempt meaningful discussion with fools so uninformed (except for seeking confirmation from other liars) that they are incapable of responding in any meaningful sense.

    their gullibility, ignorance and lies contribute nought (except conflict) as they seek to delay any meaningful action on agw. and repeatedly demonstrate their collective inability to cope with reality – “can’t see, nah, nah can’t see, can’t get me,” as they jam their heads into the sand.

    it’s mildly surprising that they haven’t recently accused anyone of “green religion” as they continue to embrace such ideas as
    i don’t believe in catastrophism. models don’t work, tipping points are imaginary, and ludicrously,

    There is more than ample evidence out there without the Rose article to suggest a flatlining of global temps for the last 15 years or more, but it

    with religious fervour, while steadfastly refusing to acknowledge the evidence contrary to their claims, and failing to either provide evidence supporting their “case”, or admit error.
    wonder what they’ll do when the “shit hits the fan” as the reality of agw, and the serious nature of its consequences makes its way into their consciousness, despite their best attempts at hiding under their collective “blankies”.

  93. Oh gosh I will just have to pick myself up off the floor from laughing so much.

    How will the journalists spin Tony as the “most successful opposition leader ever”. His great big scary campaign has helped keep the cpi down thus putting the wrecking ball to his own argument on the baaaaaaaaad tax!!!!

    time to laugh again

  94. In this interview with Andrew Robb, the Howard government in 2004 made a “clear eyed judgement” not to make a pitch for a seat on the UN security council.
    Also in the interview, Robb said the same professionals who advised them were advising Rudd.

    http://www.andrewrobb.com.au/Media/BrowseCategories/tabid/81/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/855/categoryId/11/Interview-with-Barrie-Cassidy-Insiders-ABC-TV.aspx

    So today’s mean spirited comments from the Abbott team are just that mean spirited.

  95. The ACT election, betting closed and paid out

    “Hundreds of gamblers have made an early score on tomorrow’s ACT election with an online bookmaker halting bets on the poll and paying out $20,000 to punters who backed Labor.

    Online bookies Sportsbet.com.au closed its market on the poll this morning after odds on a victory by Chief Minister Katy Gallagher plunged to $1.04, the same as those available on Black Caviar in the mare’s most recent races.

    The agency’s public relations manager Shaun Anderson told the Canberra Times today that about 300 punters would share in $20,000 of winnings after the decision was made to close the market this morning with 95 per cent of gamblers backing Ms Gallagher to retain power.

    “We’ve decided to pay out already, that’s how confident we are,” Mr Anderson said
    Advertisement

    The Liberals’ price had blown out from $2.30 on Monday to a $3.50 long shot yesterday.

    Read more: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/its-a-sure-thing-bets-close-on-act-election-20121019-27voy.html#ixzz29iNEMjcz

  96. I believe there is a basic law of science, that for every action there is a reaction. Nothing on this earth happens in isolation.

    The Arctic is a core component of the earth system. Six of the 14 climate change tipping points of the earth system are located in the Arctic region.
    Whereas the term tipping point was initially introduced to the climate change debate in a metaphoric manner, it has since been formalised and introduced in the context of systems exhibiting rapid, climate-driven change, such as the Arctic. Tipping points have been defined in the context of earth system science as the critical point in forcing at which the future state of the system is qualitatively altered.
    Tipping elements are defined, accordingly, as the structural components of the system directly responsible for triggering abrupt changes once a tipping point is passed. This is because they can be switched into a qualitatively different state by small perturbations.

    http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/volatile-arctic-time-bomb?utm_source=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily

  97. I predict that as Mr. Abbott’s faces more scrutiny and questioning of what he says and does over the next few months, the number of trolls will increase dramatically. Why else would the Likes of Cory Bernardi invest so much money and time on such sites as Menzies House and other sites.

    If one bothers not to scroll past and read their comments, one will see they are well scripted and come from the same script.

  98. ‘I believe there is a basic law of science, that for every action there is a reaction. Nothing on this earth happens in isolation.’

    Fair enough.

    CU the methane bomb is a myth invented by catastrophists, its been debunked already.

    As all mass extinctions have come about through cooling, it seems highly unlikely that human intervention could make any difference on this occasion.

    The sceptics think we have over 1000 years before Holocene’s end, but its unpredictable. At the same time we might take advantage of science to predict the advance of mini ice ages.

    This is of paramount importance for our survival, because on a smaller time scale over millennia we can detect the pulse of real climate change…. its natural rhythm. Any sharp cooling could lead to war or a new dark age.

    Naturally the kitchen table scientists are looking for wheels within wheels, in the search for global cooling tipping points, with no breakthrough in sight.

  99. CU

    Looking at a watch makes you a sexist – even misogynist, according to the Prime Minister.

    “Sexism should always be unacceptable. We should conduct ourselves as it should always be unacceptable. The Leader of the Opposition says do something; well he could do something himself if he wants to deal with sexism in this Parliament…
    That’s what I believe is the path forward for this Parliament, not the kind of double standards and political game-playing imposed by the Leader of the Opposition now looking at his watch because apparently a woman’s spoken too long”

    Will Gillard know call out the Indian Prime Minister as a woman-hater?

  100. Talk about drawing a long bow

    Agreed. Trying to make out that someone is sexist just because they look at their watch is dishonest. I cannot understand why labor is going down this sexist warfare pathway. They have already tried the class warfare argument with the miners and now they are trying to say someone is sexist when they are not.

    What is the point?? What a disgrace that we pay Gillard money to tell lies.

  101. Where was it said that looking at his watch, Abbott was sexist.

    I believe the message was hitting home and Mr. Abbott was so uncomfortable, he wanted it to end. The PM could not resist pointing out that she was hitting Mr. Abbott where it hurt.

    For once, Mr. Abbott had to sit there and take it. He could not run, as he usually does, when things get a little hotter, or freeze with anger, as he did with Mr. Riley.

    No one said looking at a watch was sexist. It is a long stretch of the imagination to say so.

    Why the Indian Leader looked at his watch, we will never know. The full video, so that they appeared to be getting on well.

    Once again, words are being put in the PM’s mouth.

    By the way, the Oxford dictionary added to the meaning of that word back in 2002. Long before Macquarie has.

  102. Neil “I cannot understand why labor is going down this sexist warfare pathway.”
    How dumb Neil…. where you been living ,cobba, under a rock…… who started the ,as you call it, ‘sexist warfare’ Neil …..oh and Neil *look over there*… typical RW ‘projection’, start trouble, tell utter lies, misinform and then turn around and say ‘why for did you do that’.. why for you so mean to us Mister’ …. oh, oh, its not us *stab*…. Right wingers ARE lieing Bullshit artists who would sell thier own Grannys crutch if there was something in it for them….. Liberal Party defined means ‘scums of the earth…’ LNP IS a pestilence that needs put’n down… Neil…Teaman….Iain etc you are super stupid F*wits… you self-serving leaches, greedy hateful spineless air-stealers…. all terms that can be applied to RW low-lifes such as yourselves….LNP types only care about LNP types, not this country or the rest of us Aussies… stuff RWers you are inane !!!

  103. And never have so many been sucked in…

    1.There’s more chance of me playing with the bulldogs…
    2.There will never be a carbon tax under a govt I lead…
    3.Tells MP’s to deny explicitly they have a power sharing deal with the Greens
    4.Every reputable climate scientist agrees with her
    5.She was not invited to speak at the “No Carbon Tax Rally”

  104. http://www.skepticalscience.com/going-down-the-up-escalator-part-1.html

    As you would expect, Asten has to move Lindzen’s goalposts forward by a couple of years, to an implied starting date of 1997. Note also that he slides from “no statistically significant trend” to “a pause”. What can we say about this? In one sense he is right. As I’ve said, we need about 15 years of data to get a statistically significant trend, so we wouldn’t expect to find one with 10 years, and we would usually expect to find one with 20 years. But, of course, that number itself is variable. Astin is repeating basic facts about time series, in a way that would lead unwary or gullible readers (the vast majority, given the outlet) to suppose that recent evidence casts doubt on the observed warming trend. The only thing that’s hard to figure here is whether he is fooling himself as well as his readers.

    fn1. (Lindzen himself often slipped from “no statistically significant warming” to “no warming” either out of sloppiness or because he thought no one was looking.

    http://johnquiggin.com/2012/10/19/statistical-significance/#comments

  105. Let get this clear. Mr. Rudd lost the respect of his caucus, the caucus by the way that put him in power.

    No one has been able to find any evidence that the PM started the assault against Mr. Rudd.

    The majority of the caucus had decided he had to go. This happens all the time in politics, in the past and will again in the future.

    Maybe if you looked hard enough. I am you might find a similar makeup of what Mr. Abbott did and said before he manage to beat Mr. Turnbull by one vote.

    As for that promise, the PM has bought in what she promised in that statement, that if you take the time to play the interview in its entirety.

    Much of the rest is nitpicking, and twisting of words..

  106. wonder what they’ll do when the “shit hits the fan” as the reality of agw, and the serious nature of its consequences makes its way into their consciousness, despite their best attempts at hiding under their collective “blankies”

    It’ll never happen, pterosaur. Their heads are so far up their collective @rses, they will never notice.

    Neil @5.48pm, depends on the “context”. A quick peek at the watch to check when afternoon tea is in the offing, isn’t sexist. When done as a deliberate insult, it is. Give up, Neil. Liealot is a lying git.

    LOVO @6.30pm, please say what you mean. You’re being far too subtle. :lol:

    Agreed, never in the history of Australia have so many lies been told by so few!

    Oh, I dunno. The :Liars Party has quite a few members.

    Treeman dredging up the same old lies, I see. You never tire of being proved a liar, it seems.

    Do we have a carbon tax? Will we have a carbon tax? Even abridging the PM’s actual statement doesn’t support your lie. There is no carbon tax. Those claiming there is, are liars. Guess that’s you and Super Liar the LOTO.

    Any proof there’s a power sharing agreement with the Greens? Thought not, so denying there is such an agreement is the truth.

    Note the word “reputable”. That’s the clincher.

    Keep trying shill. You get more shrill by the nano second.

    BTW, did you know that Anal won’t be able to manufacture his own “facts” any more?

    ACMA has decided that as he is a compulsive LIAR, a fact checker will have to vet all the dribble pouring out of his lying gob.

    Wonder how long it will be before the same stricture will apply to Dolt, Hadley and the rest of the Liars Party shills?

  107. Jane,

    Imagine the futility of requiring Liars Party shills to stick to facts and truth.

    Truth is to Liars Party as a bicycle is to fish.

  108. Yes I’ve had a good day, great dinner and have some nice company, so have to leave you, but that gave me a good chuckle.

  109. Good, don’t talk about climate change to your ‘nice company’…its a very divisive issue.

    ‘Yes, the Arctic is warm this year, but not abnormally so when viewed in a historical context. Meanwhile, the Antarctic is proving contrary… We may be seeing an example of the global “seesaw” of Arctic and Antarctic change…’

    Professor Michael Asten in the Oz

    This is the first mention I’ve seen of the bipolar seesaw.

  110. Your comment got through and was rightly rebutted for the nonsense it is.

    @el gordo
    only if you are a climate change denier and creationist like this guy appears to be

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Spencer_(scientist)

    Why didn’t you ask about the UK Met report? Oh that’s right it was made up bullshit by right wingers.

    Do you see a trend here, one that doesn’t have to measured over more than a decade but only over the made up stuff of right wingers?

  111. Great response

    @el gordo

    He used to label that curve “for entertainment purposes”, and now presents it without any qualification. For some real entertainment, look at the fit back to, say, 1800.

    Sad to say, Spencer is evidence that crazy ideas wrt one part of science (he’s a creationist) are likely to be associated with bad practice in another.

  112. Being a bit narky there el gordo, This from Ikonclast is so apt in your case:

    It takes a lot of hard work to do the science or follow the science in any given field. Denialists and myth makers range at will over complex subjects and invent any nonsense they like. Modern denialists live, eat, drink and spread ignorance by free-riding on science and all its advances.

    Fact is el gordo you don’t have a clue, just as I don’t, yet you go around finding any little snippet that seems, and the word seems is important in your case, to fit into something you can throw into a post for no more reason than to stir the pot.

  113. And the next sham that comes along the right wingers will fall for it hook line and sinker and then ignore the fact they did when the sham is revealed, and in typical right wing projection and without an iota of evidence or science they accuse the proponents of AGW of falling for a sham.

    This video is for you el gordo (blogging blockhead), please listen to it and follow it’s advice.

  114. Thanks for your post ME. Unfortunately bloggers like El Gordo don’t let facts get in the way of a nice bit of political propaganda.

    El Gordo is not just lazy or stupid, but is trying to peddle a defunct political message.

  115. There you go again…last resort of the alarmist is the appeal to authority, in this case the met Office, a shabby organisation at best which has been proven wrong time after time with its predictions of gloom. You find that here in Australia also.

  116. What a wonderful thing is the Fair Work Act…NOT

    http://afr.com/p/opinion/the_folly_of_adverse_action_in_the_HXm0N7ITO1cVGbhvVHSI8M

    “Employers caught in the adverse action trap become overwhelmed with outrage when they discover the inherent unfairness of the law.

    Take the adverse action case that James Ashby brought against former speaker Peter Slipper and the Commonwealth. Over the past six months Attorney General Nicola Roxon spent $730,000 on 17 lawyers to arrive at a settlement in which Ashby got $50,000 in go-away money and the agreement that members of Parliament are to be trained in what constitutes sexually harassing behaviour. Ms Roxon described the case as “vexatious” but says she had to “settle” on behalf of the Commonwealth to stop the “lawyers’ picnic”.

    How ironic that the Labor government has been so deftly injured by the ferociousness of its own law. I wonder when it drafted it whether it considered it might be the most public victim. I hope they enjoy their sexual harassment training.”

  117. CRU Head, Professor Phil Jones has something for those banging on about the Daily mail Rose article…

    “We don’t fully understand how to input things like changes in the oceans, and because we don’t fully understand it you could say that natural variability is now working to suppress the warming. We don’t know what natural variability is doing”

    Prof Jones admitted that he and his colleagues did not understand the impact of ‘natural variability’ – factors such as long-term ocean temperature cycles and changes in the output of the sun. However, he said he was still convinced that the current decade would end up significantly warmer than the previous two.
    The data does suggest a plateau, he admitted, and without a major El Nino event – the sudden, dramatic warming of the southern Pacific which takes place unpredictably and always has a huge effect on global weather – ‘it could go on for a while’.

    So, what “convinces” Phil Jones that the “current decade would end up significantly warmer than the previous two”.

    Is science about being convinced? For many who speak so sagely here, sadly this seems to be the case!

  118. El Gordo is not just lazy or stupid, but is trying to peddle a defunct political message.

    That’s why all the right wing Liberal trolls are here, I’d say. Not content with all the “mainstream” media pushing their filthy propaganda they even try to spread it via places like the Cafe, where they’re neither welcome, appreciated or respected. I hope when the Liberals get into power (whenever it is) the RW trolls get WorkChoiced especially severely. Prepare to bend over and take it up the Kyber Pass, morons.

  119. ” Sources tell VEXNEWS that the number Ashby’s lawyers cited in discussions with the Commonwealth as having been expended on legal costs is $1.2 million. Even allowing for traditional padding, that’s a huge amount for anyone to fund.”

    http://www.vexnews.com/2012/10/shadow-boxing-james-ashbys-500000-legal-bill-is-australian-politics-dirtiest-little-secret/

    $1.2 million just for the lawyers, add to that exactly how much for the PR Firm.
    All for a settlement for $50,000, yes and the trolls reckon the claim is all above board.

  120. So now the UK Met Office is a shabby organisation but when it was thought to have produced a report stating there had been no warming it was a very credible source.

    Laugh a moment and much hypocrisy.

    The right wingers jump onto and cite as credible exposed sham artists every time, non-scientists who are mouth pieces in the pay of wealthy interests, scientists who are not in the field and also proven to be in the pay of vested interests and discredited scientific papers and scientists, but execrate real and credited science and scientists.

    Their other disingenuousness, as so aptly illustrated by the UK Met Office sham, is the unthinkingly eagerness to jump onto reports or stories from people or organisations that at face value seem to support their closed point of view, but will then damn the very same when it turns out they actually don’t.

    They just flitter around from one denial to another or one meme to another, their content matters not, their veracity or credibility doesn’t matter nor the fact they change from one moment to the next, as long as they seem to support their blinkered view they will jump on it as absolute and irrefutable proof they are right, because in their demonstrable arrogance they are always right. And if they are proven wrong, which is often, refer to rule one, we are always right.

  121. ‘one meme to another’

    Think of it as a running conversation in a cafe. Why get bogged down in boorish splitting of hairs, the important lesson is that warming has stopped and for you lot its a travesty they can’t find the heat.

    It’s the irony I luvs…

  122. Wrong again el gordo. Just saying it a lot of times and sourcing shams when it suits you doesn’t make it so.

    I’ll think of it for what it is, you jumping from one meme to another when it suits you.

    It’s the ignorance dressed up as knowledge I dislike. The Quiggin responses pinged you on that perfectly.

  123. ‘The Quiggin responses pinged you on that perfectly.’

    What? Spencer is a Creationist, so what. There are also devout christian, muslim and jewish scientists too, should we ignore their academic work?

    Spencer’s sine wave is real and a worrying trend…. guffaw

  124. That wasn’t it el gordo. You overlook the substance in Quiggin’s response of the fact Spencer originally stated his graph was for entertainment. I notice you suddenly left Quiggin when you got a couple responses opposing you.

    You wouldn’t be an unknown child of Abbott’s would you?

    Quiggin is also right though that Creationists who distort and fabricate historical facts and science also do so in other fields and sciences.

    Creationism is not a religion. The Creationists fought very hard and long to have it recorded they were not a religion but a science. Christians, Muslims, Jews and others don’t espouse their beliefs as being a science or scientific theory, they espouse themselves as a religion.

    Now for mine someone who states they believe in the supposed science of Creationism, even though it’s been well and truly debunked for the utter nonsense it is, has little credibility in their theory in scientific fields.

    (Telling you capitalised the start of Creationist but didn’t do so for the religions. I assume it was a small oversight.)

  125. “Spencer is a Creationist,… so what ” :???: .. Creationist are not scientists El Gordo…. they peddle the same mantra as you denialists, that is, ..take the science…pull it to pieces…take out the bits that don’t fit the ‘mantra’…. put it back together and then put a new handle on it, like “Creation Science” and peddle it to all as credible science….then say “see, we were right all along.. the ‘science’ proves it.”……. Maybe you need to read a book by one of yours and Frau Gina’s hero’s Ian Plimer, its called “Telling lies for God” in which it details the fraud of ‘Creation Science’ and how they went about pulling the science to bits and recreating it in thier own image :D
    ( and P.S. I have a signed copy ;) ) and the irony is that Plimer is now using those same tricks for which he denounced the creationist. :???:

  126. Obsessive Thinking Disorder
    Obsessive thinking disorder is a condition in which a person is enslaved by a vicious cycle of thoughts and compulsive behavior. This article dwells on the causes, symptoms and treatment of this disorder.
    Read more at Buzzle: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/obsessive-thinking-disorder.html

    http://www.buzzle.com/articles/obsessive-thinking-disorder.html

    Could this be reason th\at el gordo and many other trolls come back and back with the same rubbish over and over. Never able to move on to new topics. I believe they descend into fantasy to survive.

    I would also like to comment on Mr. Carr’s interview on Lateine last night. It showed up the hollowness of the Opposition foreign pokiv\cy.

    Mr. Carr’s answer made the responses of Ms. Bishop and the Opposition to the government’s efforts and expenditure look as ridiculous as they are.

    To me, what the Opposition foreign policy seems to be, to say no and undermine all that Labor says and does.

    I agree with Mr. Carr, if the Opposition do believe what they have been saying, we need to be scared, very scared indeed. Many topics that the Opposition does not want the public to become interested in.

    They are desperate that the public of the PM might change, making their arguments harder to mount.

    The fact is that the public perception of both the PM and Opposition Leader are changing.

    This must be Mr. Abbott’s worse nightmare.

    Trolls, there is much more going on than talking about man made climate change. Many more important topics.

    Trolls, I am curious, is there a site you all go to each morning to get your script for the day.

  127. ‘I notice you suddenly left Quiggin when you got a couple responses opposing you.’

    I’ve been kept busy in my sheltered workshop…flat chat now but I’ll have another look at Quiggin later. Compared to your ferocious ad homs and bluster…they are tame.

  128. Compared to your ferocious ad homs and bluster…

    Want to give me examples of my ferocious ad hominems?

  129. ‘Creationist are not scientists’

    Maybe they are pseudo scientists, according to Mo they fought hard and long to prove they are not a religion.

    They are god botherers, but I fail to see what that has to do with Spencer’s sine wave.

  130. el gordo, one does have an high opinion of their own self importance. I do not think many here see it as the heat of the battle. The utterance of you and fellow travelers does not warrant anger, just ridicule.
    There is no battle, only in your mind.

  131. There’s a doco on how the Creationists labelled Intelligent Design as a science so as to disavow ID from religion and instil it as a science. They lost a famous court case in the US to have ID recognised and taught as a science.

    Whatever label they put it on it to sell it as a science it was still a religion. That was my point.

    Which brings us to Spencer and Quiggin’s rightful contention that he distorts recorded history and fabricates events to justify his Creationism as he does for climate science.

    As Quiggin states Spencer originally contended his sine wave graph was for entertainment but somehow that entertainment is supposed to be science. It’s amusement because for over a century we have direct instrument measurement data and they don’t look anything like a sine wave, not a bit. That’s why Spencer calls the sine wave “for amusement only”.

    Spencer calls his sine wave amusement el gordo but just like the UK Met Office scam you fall for this as irrefutable fact and then base an entire argument around the amusement so as to distract the fact not long ago you were saying a sham was irrefutable fact.

    Wonder what sham/amusement/fantasy you will jump onto next?

  132. ‘Craig Thomson will be charged before the end of the year by NSW Police
    Multiple charges will be laid , final number as yet unknown.’
    Radio news this morning.
    About bloody time , the system can only stand so much mockery.

  133. More than 300 people are being held under canvas, with plans to send at least a thousand more to the camp.
    In an interview with The Global Mail Nauru’s foreign minister, Dr Kieren Keke, said Nauru had hoped that by now the asylum seekers would have been housed in permanent buildings on Nauru rather than still in tents.
    Keke issued a rebuff to the Coalition, whose leader, Tony Abbott and immigration spokesman, Scott Morrison, said that under an Abbott Government asylum seekers could expect to be held on Nauru for five years.
    It was also a rebuff for the Gillard government policy that asylum seekers who arrive in Australia by boat should not enjoy any advantage — in the time taken to process their refugee claims — over those who apply for Australian residence through official channels overseas.
    The length of time asylum seekers would stay on Nauru, Keke said, was for the Nauruan government to decide — under whose laws they were being processed — not for Australia.

    http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/australias-tent-diplomacy/437/

  134. Another Abbott foreign policy failure I see Cu.

    All hairy chested and full bravado about what he’s going to do on the foreign stage but the reality is the opposite. There is a huge disconnect between what Abbott says (brain farts) and what he does or what happens.

  135. Other facts that Mr. Morrison conveniently ignores.

    in my view.”
    The issue causing the most concern to the asylum seekers, their advocates and the UN High Commissioner for Refugees is the delay in beginning the processing of refugee claims.
    At least 4,000 people — most of them still being held in Australia — are among those caught by the suspension of the processing of their refugee claims.
    Keke said he could not say when processing would begin on Nauru — though it will be conducted under Nauruan law and overseen by Nauru’s secretary for justice and border control.
    “Nauru’s position is that we are working as quickly as we can all aspects of this — the necessary legislation, the human resource capacity and the physical resources,” Keke said. “Once they are in place, then assessments will commence.”

    http://www.theglobalmail.org/feature/australias-tent-diplomacy/437/

  136. Stretched my imagination and saw a sine wave, don’t know why you can’t see it.

    ‘As Quiggin states Spencer originally contended his sine wave graph was for entertainment but somehow that entertainment is supposed to be science.’

    I would like to know more about this…probably an intellectual hobby. Any detail on that would be appreciated.

  137. ‘There is no battle, only in your mind.’

    Its a war of words to win over the hearts and minds of the masses….I do it for entertainment.

    Ridicule all you want and just for the record I have a low opinion of myself.

  138. Do you ever read what you source el gordo? Don’t answer that, we all know that you don’t for all the times you have thought a source has said one thing when it actually stated something else. This is from Spencer’s site on his sine wave and are his own words.

    The 3rd order polynomial fit to the data (courtesy of Excel) is for entertainment purposes only, and should not be construed as having any predictive value whatsoever.

    That third order polynomial gives him his “hopeful” sine wave that’s not a sine wave at all.

    In response to Spencer’s graph:

    Spencer has done the old chart-meister’s trick of elongating the x-axis compared to the y-axis so that what is actually increasing looks more static on superficial viewing.

    He has also left large white spaces at the top and bottom of the chart, so that the information is compressed into the middle. I do a lot of data displays as part of my work, and these tricks are well known to practitioners. Spencer, of course, will claim innocence. Your own chart from the Wood for Trees site did not have these calculated “adjustments”.

    A closer look will show the points for the second half of the chart are above the x-axis, the points from the first half of the chart are below. And of course, Spencer has done some disingenuous cheating by not showing the rate of increase, and instead plotting his fake “sine wave” – more about that below.

    Note that the x-axis and y-axis are roughly equal so the dimensions of the chart are not artificially elongated in any direction, and the increasing rate is obvious to the eye.

    PS Regarding the “sine wave”, it is not a sine wave at all – it is a cublic polynomial which goes to +infinity if continued to the left, and to -infinity if continued to the right. Is Roy Spencer saying temperatures were infinitely high before 1979, and will become infinitely low after 2012?

    He gives himself an “out” by saying the cubic polynomial is “for entertainment only”. You are too gullible, andresjv, you should be more skeptical when someone presents with what you want to see.

  139. Sorry it seems the second ImageShack graph has been removed by ImageShack with no explanation. It showed the difference of the same data sets plotted without the artificial elongation that Spencer engaged in. When that is done there is no sine wave and as the author of the response states the rise in temperature is obvious.

  140. Why doesn’t this surprise me.

    It seems the Liberals are breaking lots of rules around the polling booths in Canberra. Some of their illegal signs have been confiscated and I’m chasing up the other illegal things they are doing.

  141. Getting nasty in Canberra along with some good stuff.

    It has been claimed a Subaru deliberately mounted the curb and ran over a Liberal candidates sign.

    A Labor candidate reported a Hummer drove up and the bloke said to him I’ve always voted Liberal but not this time.

  142. Indeed. And it’s troubling that the port-imbibing editor should be furiously scribbling this at the same time that Susan Butler is writing this letter to The Australian, here:

    It is galling to be accused in one of the letters to your paper (19/10) of lying about the Oxford dictionary expanding its definition of misogyny to cover prejudice, while at the same time I am being gently teased by John Simpson, editor of the Oxford, for being so slow to make the change.
    He made it in 2002 and we are just catching up. Anyone who claims to report what is in a dictionary should make sure that they are consulting the most recent edition of that dictionary. Otherwise they can be accused of sloppy research.
    Your correspondents have also not caught up with the fact that the Oxford has the following definition of decimate: to destroy or remove a large proportion of; to subject to severe loss, slaughter, or mortality. The editorial comment is that this is a rhetorical or loose use of the word but the meaning is covered by an added definition, nonetheless.
    The Macquarie also comments that, despite its frequency of use, this meaning of decimate has not won acceptance. In our own ways we have achieved the same result — a description of what has happened to this word and a comment on the attitudes to this change.
    Fact-checking has been in the news recently. Isn’t it up to the newspaper to check facts even if the paper’s correspondents are unwilling to do so? Susan Butler, publisher and editor, Macquarie Dictionary.

    Galling? Fact checking?

    Say what? So here’s why the AFR’s splenetic piece is wonderfully stupid and silly:

    Rather than using outlandish claims and Orwellian word manipulation to exaggerate differences between people, politicians and thought leaders should encourage all Australians to make the most of the abundant opportunities this privileged society provides, whatever their gender, race or social background.

    Orwellian word manipulation!! In response to current events, somehow predicted by the Oxford Dictionary in 2002?

    http://www.google.com/reader/view/#stream/feed%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.feedburner.com%2FLoonPond

    Plenty on new headlines on man made climate change, Nothing I believe though, eo gordo and co will be interested in.

  143. ‘When that is done there is no sine wave and as the author of the response states the rise in temperature is obvious.’

    The poly fit is complex, did some further reading but I’m none the wiser. So I’ll have to take your word for it…the sine wave is a fiction created by a creationist.

  144. That is big of you el gordo.

    99.99% of it is way beyond me, but as I do with most things in my everyday life I take what the majority of scientists and established organisations who are experts in their fields state as fact. If we didn’t we would be still living in the Dark Ages.

    As I’ve stated I hope that a theory does come along that renders AGW false but all these shams and false science being deliberately peddled by mostly vested interests aren’t helping either side, the scientific proponents nor the scientific opponents.

    In the meantime you are keeping me active and thinking by more thoroughly checking claims, which is a good thing otherwise I become too complacent in my current stance and less likely to believe a real scientific breakthrough disproving AGW.

  145. Why does one feel , that Abbott is no more than a puppet. Who pulled the strings should worry one more.

    The question for Abbott is not whether he is too much like Howard but perhaps that he is not alike enough.
    Howard, in a closed-door speech in August that soon found its way out the door, critiqued Abbott on three key areas. He pointed out that Abbott’s policy of repealing the carbon tax meant that business had no certainty in making investment decisions.
    He also urged more deregulation in the labour market – it is possible to have more flexibility without returning to Work Choices but this is an argument Abbott does not have the stomach to have.
    Howard also called for more openness to Chinese investment. In all three areas, Howard is more pro-market and pro-business than his protege.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/we-heart-howard-both-sides-want-to-be-like-the-little-master-20121019-27wqu.html#ixzz29opPnRSp

  146. Trouble with Abbott, it shows when bad news comes.

    Try as he might, Tony Abbott was unable to look pleased yesterday when Australia awoke to the news it had secured a seat on the United Nations Security Council for the next two years.
    ”It was an expensive win and I think it probably owes as much to Kevin Rudd as to Julia Gillard but, nevertheless, a win’s a win,” the Opposition Leader begrudgingly told breakfast television.
    Oppositions will always deny it but they welcome bad news and the Coalition was hoping Australia was going to lose to Luxembourg and Finland.
    From the day in early 200

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/no-generosity-of-spirit-from-churlish-coalition-20121019-27x9a.html#ixzz29os2hvPQ

  147. Real early with only 3% of the vote counted by already there seems to be a 4-5% swing to Labor with some Twitterati, including Lib supporter saying just call it for Labor and have it done with.

  148. Narky is ok, with a sense of proportion. I’ve been following the progress of that young lass and her recovery is quite extraordinary.

  149. Well here is one for Neil, and just as I knew it would the muck of the AWB scandal would eventually bubble to the surface, only I thought it would take the 30 year expiration of the secrets act to reveal all, which I still believe will happen with Iraq, and it will be very damning on Howard and Downer, but too late for them to get any real fall out.

    Top job ‘offered to end probe’

    The man who led the Australian Federal Police investigation into the AWB oil-for-food scandal has alleged he was offered a promotion in return for shutting down the probe.

    It was too convenient that the top management of AWB scandal all walked away under silence with substantial bonuses in their pockets, that public servants were not allowed to testify and even though Howard volunteered some ministers for questioning they were only allowed to be asked set questions and were allowed to not answer if they wanted to, which was their response to the most important ones.

    It will all come out eventually, but as I stated it will be too late to do any real damage to an old Howard and Downer.

  150. Especially since Obama was telling the truth. The fact checker has Romney and Ryan lying through their teeth on just about everything.

  151. ‘TEMPERATURES were warmer in the northern hemisphere 1000 and 2000 years ago, well before the industrial revolution when the level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was 40 per cent lower than it is today.

    ‘The authors of a report, published in Global and Planetary Change, said findings that the northern hemisphere was warmer during both the Roman period, 2000 years ago, and medieval warming, 1000 years ago, highlighted uncertainties in making climate predictions.’

    Graham Lloyd in the Oz

  152. Mobius
    “99.99% of it (climate science) is way beyond me”

    Here’s some help for you:

    Now here’s the thing. This is more about politics than science.

  153. You haven’t clue Treeman and some YouTube vids will never explain it, only confirm your shut mindset.

    I can find more YouTube vids giving an opposite view, so does that make me right and you wrong?

    You do know that Evans is a member of Australian Climate Science Coalition?

  154. I know very well who Evans is. What is about being a member of the Australian Climate Science Coalition that makes him less believable?

    As Evans says the stats he uses come from impeccable sources and are available to all. How about you go check the veracity of his claims instead of trotting out the opposite view. I’ve also seen many youtube vids with opposite view but the credentials is the thing, and that’s not all. These days one needs to dig a little deeper. Funding is critical to all new science and more often than not the money trail is all revealing.

    BTW, like Evans my background is diverse and I utterly reject your assertion of a fixed mindset. I could equally level the same criticism at you with ample justification considering your comments here.

  155. Mobius this is not about right and wrong, it’s more about getting best outcomes when (climate) science has been politicised to such a degree that the public have been blinded to reality. Tell you something by way of example. Two species in NSW are classified as endangered.
    Syconycteris australis, also known as the southern blossom bat or Queensland blossom bat. Listed as vulnerable in NSW it thrives in warmer Queensland. The reason is is rare south of the Queensland border is that this tiny bat chills quickly and prefers a warmer climate.
    Geodorum densiflorum the Pink Nodding Orchid is listed as endangered in NSW and can be found in abundance in Queensland and indeed throughout a wide range north of the Queensland NSW border, through NT and into WA. Indeed Geodorum densiflorum occurs throughout Trop. & Subtrop. Asia to W. Pacific.

    Clearly the listing of these two species as vulnerable and endangered in NSW does not take into account the natural occurrence of either. Somewhere in the archives I recall a suggestion that global warming would cause plant species to die out in SE Queensland. Was that you Mobius?

  156. According to his own resume, Evans has not published a single peer-reviewed research paper on the subject of climate change. Evans published only a single paper in 1987 in his career and it is unrelated to climate change.

    Evans has published an article for the Alabama-based Ludwig von Mises Instutute, a right-wing free-market think tank.

    Evans also published a “background briefing” (pdf) document for the Australian chapter of the Lavoisier Group, a global warming “skeptic” organization with close ties to the mining industry. …

    According to his bio, Evans claims to be a ‘Rocket Scientist’ and one article claims that he is a ‘Top Rocket Scientist.’ While Evans background does show that he has a PhD in electrical engineering, there is no evidence that he was ever employed as a rocket scientist.
    Desmogblog (http://s.tt/19aH4)

  157. And having published a peer reviewed paper doth a credible scientist make? Don’t see too many Kevin Grandia peer reviewed papers and desmog blog would be the least believable to use as an appeal to authority!

  158. He’s in the pay of a group linked to right wing thinks tanks, especially The Heartland Institute, who have links to big oil and non-renewable energy whose very charter is to muddy the waters on climate change by any method possible, that is hook or crook. They use as one entity the same PR firm that was hired by big tobacco to muddy that debate several decades ago, and they are using the same tactics of using scientists to throw in dubious or outright sham data and to attack the politics.

    I find it incongruous that the deniers continuously bring up conspiracies about all these climate scientists and institutions doing it for money and world domination whilst their side are actually paying scientists, most not even in the field, a great deal more than any climate scientist ever earns to throw in what amounts to utter crud just so the gullible can blow off in blogs.

    You have fallen for a couple of shams now and will continue to jump on them as long as they appear to confirm your very narrow minded ideologically driven prejudice. It is of no consequence, the science, organisations and governments move on regardless.

    No it wasn’t me Treeman.

    Fact is flora and fauna are moving in unprecedented numbers outside their normal areas following the changing habitats to survive.

  159. Back to the Northern Hemisphere temperature in the last two millennia. This is a lot more up to date than a 2008 reference to desmogbog…

    B. Christiansen1 and F. C. Ljungqvist2
    1Danish Meteorological Institute, Copenhagen, Denmark
    2Department of History, Stockholm University, Stockholm, Sweden

    Abstract. We present two new multi-proxy reconstructions of the extra-tropical Northern Hemisphere (30–90° N) mean temperature: a two-millennia long reconstruction reaching back to 1 AD and a 500-yr long reconstruction reaching back to 1500 AD. The reconstructions are based on compilations of 32 and 91 proxies, respectively, of which only little more than half pass a screening procedure and are included in the actual reconstructions. The proxies are of different types and of different resolutions (annual, annual-to-decadal, and decadal) but all have previously been shown to relate to local or regional temperature. We use a reconstruction method, LOCal (LOC), that recently has been shown to confidently reproduce low-frequency variability. Confidence intervals are obtained by an ensemble pseudo-proxy method that both estimates the variance and the bias of the reconstructions. The two-millennia long reconstruction shows a well defined Medieval Warm Period, with a peak warming ca. 950–1050 AD reaching 0.6 °C relative to the reference period 1880–1960 AD. The 500-yr long reconstruction confirms previous results obtained with the LOC method applied to a smaller proxy compilation; in particular it shows the Little Ice Age cumulating in 1580–1720 AD with a temperature minimum of −1.0 °C below the reference period. The reconstructed local temperatures, the magnitude of which are subject to wide confidence intervals, show a rather geographically homogeneous Little Ice Age, while more geographical inhomogeneities are found for the Medieval Warm Period. Reconstructions based on different subsets of proxies show only small differences, suggesting that LOC reconstructs 50-yr smoothed extra-tropical NH mean temperatures well and that low-frequency noise in the proxies is a relatively small problem.

    It concludes:
    – Our reconstructions indicate – in agreement with the results of Moberg et al. (2005); Ljungqvist (2010), and Loehle and McCulloch (2008) – that the first millen- nium AD was generally significantly warmer than the second millennium AD. The 17th century was the cold- est century during the last two millennia and most of the LIA seems to have been colder than during the Dark Age Cold Period ca. 300–800 AD. In general, our LOC reconstructions show larger low-frequency variability than previous reconstructions.

    It’s all here: http://www.clim-past.net/8/765/2012/cp-8-765-2012.pdf

  160. Mobius
    “Fact is flora and fauna are moving in unprecedented numbers outside their normal areas following the changing habitats to survive.”

    “He’s in the pay of a group linked to right wing thinks tanks, especially The Heartland Institute,”

    Proof please…

    “I find it incongruous that the deniers continuously bring up conspiracies about all these climate scientists”
    You just did it yourself…”He’s in the pay of a group linked to right wing thinks tanks, especially The Heartland Institute, who have links to big oil and non-renewable energy whose very charter is to muddy the waters on climate change by any method possible, that is hook or crook. They use as one entity the same PR firm that was hired by big tobacco to muddy that debate several decades ago, and they are using the same tactics of using scientists to throw in dubious or outright sham data and to attack the politics.”

    Oh dear, if that’s all you have you’d better start afresh! and BTW, I have in good account that it was you and let’s face it you have form…” flora and fauna are moving in unprecedented numbers outside their normal areas following the changing habitats to survive.”

    You should get help. I’ve seen the adds, here’s plenty of help available to NAIL IT!

  161. Business Sunday, discussing the Channel 10 share price.
    “Yes the owners have certainly done the shirt off their back. Then again they all have a few more shirts in the wardrobe.”

    What an apt description of the 3 big owners, Packer, Murdoch and Rhinehart. the 3 owners may have to poor a lot more of their wealth to keep Channel 10 afloat. The big 3, who all have inherited wealth.
    Will Gina ask, “is Bolt really worth the bother?”

  162. Here is the usual, you should get help. How unoriginal and copying el gordo no less.

    If you want to remain so closed minded then there is nothing I can do or link to that would convince you of anything.

    UK Met Office?

    Spencer Sine Wave?

    How any more scams are you going to jump on?

  163. Yes sue. Bolt serves a purpose beyond his dismal ratings and as long as he does that he will be paid for by Rhinehart. Channel 10 and Bolt are a tiny bucket out of her mountain of wealth,

  164. http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1204/1204.5871.pdf

    Here’s a paper responding to Christiansen and Ljungqvist, not that you will pay any attention to it, but just go off and find something else you think fits your closed mind on climate change.

    We have gone all over this before Treeman and I’ve quoted Christiansen and Ljungqvist in the past. In fact I initially was hopeful they had proved the AGW theory wrong but there were flaws in the measurements of local data.

    The most promising area of research in disproving AGW comes in cloud forcing. I found that one out when in their usual claim of conspiracy I did some research on funding and found opponent climate scientists were getting considerable government and institutional funding, with one pair getting quite a sum to build a cloud chamber to prove cloud forcing.

    That paper Concludes:
    Even though the calibration merit is low, which would have possibly prohibited a real world reconstruction, I conclude from the presented results the following: Millennial temperature reconstructions may well be regionally biased. Warm biases may indeed occur over a thousand year period for chronologies which rely heavily on high latitudes. Additionally the well known problem of variance loss due to averaging becomes obvious once more, while on the other hand an exaggerated
    variance also arises as a possibility. That is, besides of regional biases, the temporal resolution of the data has an impact on the resultant reconstructed series, and the mixing of temporal resolutions has to be rigorously assessed. Finally, regional biases may be prominent but the lack of power of the reconstruction methods may either accentuate or attenuate their influence.

  165. Impressive stats Mo, but they went over my head.

    Reading back through the papers this strikes me as relevant: ‘The 17th century was the coldest century during the last two millennia and most of the LIA seems to have been colder than during the Dark Age Cold Period ca. 300–800 AD.’

    I didn’t know that, so I’m better informed now and it solved a big piece of my puzzle.

    Roman times were warm and we know this because sea level was much higher. This can easily be seen when we search out some ancient sea ports.

    The Dark Age cooling started mass migration, then warmer climate returned in Medieval times, followed by the LIA and our Modern Climate Optimum.

    The warm periods are getting cooler and the cool periods are getting colder…it feels like the end of Holocene to me.

    And you’re worried about global warming? We have never had it so good.

  166. Sorry el gordo, what is currently happening has had no precedent in the time frame it’s happening in outside of a major natural cataclysmic event.

    The ancient warm periods have been done to death, answered and refuted over and again and is yet another meme continuously raised by the deniers as they jump from one thing to another in their closed minded hunt to discredit AGW.

    I’m worried about global warming because the science tells me I should be, and until credible science, not shams, deceits, vested interests and right wing ideologues, tell me I shouldn’t be worried then I will continue to follow the science.

    So el gordo you will no longer take any medicine or vaccines, get in a car, fly, operate a computer and do just about everything else in life because the majority science tells you in all probability they are mostly safe to do, but in every case there are opposing views and scientists who say they should be banned or modified as they are dangerous mankind or the planet.

    In every case where science finds something mankind is doing is or is potentially dangerous to the planet we should just do nothing and let it happen, what’s a planet between friends after all.

    This is ostrich approach to science has me baffled. But then again when we look at the source for telling everyone to bury their heads in the sand and who mindlessly follows that lead then I guess it’s not surprising.

  167. Also telling el gordo that you stated the sources I quoted went over your head, as they mostly did mine as well, but didn’t say the same for the Christiansen and Ljungqvist paper.

  168. Mobius

    Your second link above titled:
    “Another response to Christiansen and Ljungqvist” links to a paper that is actually a written by Bo Christiansen and Fredrik Charpentier Ljungqvist, responding to a paper written by A. Moberg….Mobius Ecko guns himself down.

  169. Paying attention to your first link Mobius, here’s the abstract:

    “Are temperature reconstructions possibly biased due to regionally differing density of utilized proxy- networks? This question is assessed utilizing a simple process-based forward model of tree growth in the virtual reality of two simulations of the climate of the last millennium with different amplitude of solar forcing variations.”

    From Bothe’s website, the paper is listed as other, well below his peer reviewed, under review and In preparation categories. Furthermore, in the paper he acknowledges Christiansen and Ljungqvist and concludes:

    “The present assessment tries to highlight possible pitfalls in reconstructing the climate of the last 1000 years from limited sets of proxies. The emphasis is on networks which are dominated by high latitude proxies. The assessment is certainly influenced by the characteristics of the COSMOS-Mill simulator, the applied forcing series, the statistical characteristics of the computed pseudo tree growth series and the processes considered in computing them with the VSLite algorithm. I willingly use only simple regression based reconstruction approaches and for the main part chose locations where tree growth correlates to both simulation targets and local temperature. In addition, the pseudo growth is very likely warm season biased and the warm season may display the largest high latitude biases over a thousand year period (Briffa and Osborne 2002; Jones et al., 2003). The noisy inter-annual characteristics of the high latitude data reduces their importance in the presented reconstructions, while the decadal
    resolution of the Asian data possibly overemphasizes the latter locations.
    Thus, the network average temperature is indeed in some periods warm biased compared to the extratropical hemispheric target. This is most pronounced in the strong solar forcing simulation from the 9th to the 14th century. Indeed, the high latitude locations are responsible for this bias, whereas lower latitude locations are cooler than the extratropical hemispheric average in the strong solar forcing simulation. In the weak solar forcing simulation, the low latitude location average is less variable on low frequencies thus under-representing warm and cold excursions. However, the evaluation, however, does not show a general warm bias of reconstructions based on high latitudinal climate.
    Furthermore, already the calibration period merit is low. Subsequent reconstructions suffer to some extent from a loss of variance due to averaging. Further shortcomings are an overestimation of low frequent variability for non-high latitude sub-sets resulting in overestimating the intensity of warm and cold episodes in the composite approach. Both utilized methods give a pronounced warm bias in the weak forcing simulation. Interestingly, rather good and rather uninformative reconstructed temperature series arise when varying the reconstruction method, the utilized simulation forcing or the pseudo networks (keeping the same proportion of high-latitude to non-high latitude locations and of east Asian to non-east-Asian locations).
    Even though the calibration merit is low, which would have possibly prohibited a real world reconstruction, I conclude from the presented results the following: Millennial temperature reconstructions may well be regionally biased. Warm biases may indeed occur over a thousand year period for chronologies which rely heavily on high latitudes. Additionally the well known problem of variance loss due to averaging becomes obvious once more, while on the other hand an exaggerated variance also arises as a possibility. That is, besides of regional biases, the temporal resolution of the data has an impact on the resultant reconstructed series, and the mixing of temporal resolutions has to be rigorously assessed. Finally, regional biases may be prominent but the lack of power of the reconstruction methods may either accentuate or attenuate their influence.”

    I suggest this discussion paper does more to discredit Jones and Briffa than it does Christiansen and Ljungqvist…

  170. ‘I’m worried about global warming because the science tells me I should be’

    Not exactly true, the warming hiatus has thrown a huge spanner in the works.

  171. good attempt, Mo at trying to reach out to the willfully ignorant, as they once again try to deny the reality of agw.
    as expected this sums their “arguments” rather well, imho
    .
    further illustrated by eg’s @12:29 pm

    the warming hiatus

    ……..yet another refusal to accept evidence which contradicts this statement, which both you and i have proffered on this thread

  172. treetroll

    I suggest this discussion paper does more to discredit Jones and Briffa than it does Christiansen and Ljungqvist…

    How?

  173. This morning on Insiders it was pointed out that focus groups are saying, the carbon tax is no longer an issue.

    What is still alive and flourishing is the boat trade. Did not elaborate on what they thought of either policy. It would be interesting what the focus groups have to say. Unlike some believe, this is not a black and white issue.

    The other thing that was raised, and given as much attention as the boat trade, is that people are sick of being talked down to and treated like children by politicians.

    That one does not surprise me, every time I hear Abbott speak, I cringe. Three three word slogans and motherhood statements do not impress. I shutter at being told the same thing, day in, day out.

    Mr. Abbott ceases repeating everything he says over and over. Such things, as bad, bad, bad, tax etc. I assume the same focus groups are telling him, the listener does not like it.

    I do not appreciate being spoken to as if I am a fool, too illiterate to understand, or as if I am a child, very young child.

    The comments on Insiders did not identify the politicians they objected to.

  174. “I fully expect to see this ‘global warming has stopped’ myth repeated for many years to come.”

    John Cook

    Hmmmm….

  175. Wifey is out this morning with Abbott. Getting prices down. ABC24.

    Pushing that Labor party is fighting among itself. Not functioning on governing. Please tell me what the last week was about. Seem to be plenty of governing going on to me.

    It does not appear to be Labor that is talking about Rudd, it is the media and Mr. Abbott.

    By the way, ABC24 apologised for the poor broadband.

  176. ‘……..yet another refusal to accept evidence’

    Well, the evidence is still coming in and if temps remain flat for another six years it will come as no surprise.

    On the other hand it might just be a break point, as the Sceptical Science chart illustrates, with warming to continue shortly.

    Its a strong argument for your side.

  177. Opposition Leader Tony Abbott attends the Chung Yeung Celebration at the Lung Po Shan Chinese Memorial Gardens in Minchinbury, in Sydney’s west, today. Photo: Ben Rushton
    Federal Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has accused Labor of being ‘‘at war with itself’’ following fresh claims today that a forthcoming book, detailing the events around Prime Minister Julia Gillard’s 2010 coup against former prime minister Kevin Rudd, will reignite Labor’s leadership tensions.

    ‘‘What the Labor Party has got to do is resolve its leadership tensions quickly. It cannot go on at war with itself, a house divided cannot stand,’’ he said today.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/labor-is-at-war-with-itself-abbott-20121021-27z6c.html#ixzz29u4Hw0IE

    Wishful thinking, I believe. If they need to fill up three to four pages with pictures and columns falling over, when she was having a good day, the Opposition and MSM really have little to complain about.

    When one has the whole caucus saying that Rudd had to go, it is hard to believe the conspiracy theories being put forwarded. Even today, if one believes what the MSM and the Opposition is saying, the support for Mr. Rudd is still very small.

    I believe Mr. Abbott should heed the PM’s words, that she is passed being told what to do and lectured by him.

    I feel a little the same way. It is time for Mr. Abbott to tell us what he is about and intends to do.

    We can make up our own minds on the PM.

    Mr. Abbott needs to give some attention to his own actions. There must be more to the man, than just saying no to everything Labor does. He even says no, when it is Liberal policy.

    Saying, “I will stop the boats” is just not enough, or for that matter, believable. There has to be more to him, than that.

  178. pterosaur1
    For starters Jones and Briffa have infamously used more selective data than Christiansen and Ljungqvist, particularly Briffa who famously used a small set of trees to replicate Michael Mann’s and has been shown to have skewed the results of his work with one tree, hence the tag One Tree Briffa.

    Bothe does not quantify bias but he does mention both Briffa and Jones in his conclusion, acknowledges all four but refers to Briffa 2002, Jones and Briffa 1994, 2003 and Christiansen 2010, Christiansen and Ljungqvist 2011 and 2012. In a sense Bothe attempts to put them all on notice and I suggest his conclusion is equally relevant to the recently withdrawn Gergis et al paper.

    The detail in the Christiansen and Ljungqvist 2012 paper leaves Briffa and Jones way behind, in my view.

    “We have compiled a set of 91 temperature sensitive proxies located in the extra-tropical NH that reach back to at least 1500 AD. All the proxies have been published in the peer re- viewed literature. Of these proxies, 32 extend as far back as to the beginning of the first millennium”
    Our reconstructions indicate – in agreement with the results of Moberg et al. (2005); Ljungqvist (2010), and Loehle and McCulloch (2008) – that the first millen- nium AD was generally significantly warmer than the second millennium AD. The 17th century was the cold- est century during the last two millennia and most of the LIA seems to have been colder than during the Dark Age Cold Period ca. 300–800 AD. In general, our LOC reconstructions show larger low-frequency variability than previous reconstructions”

    The science is far from settled and continuing to label those who hold that view as willfully ignorant deniers suggests you may well be in denial yourself.

  179. Why are trolls so obsessive about topics. There is a limited to what one can write about anything.

    Look at the comments, you trolls are talking among yourselves. Everyone else has dropped out. Boring, boring, boring.

    Would be different if anyone of you have something new to say.

    We all know that trolls used this subject as a diversion, so that one cannot discuss the many sins of the illustrious leader, they so admire.

    Cannot have anything good about the PM gets prominent exposure.

  180. OK CU I have just discovered this in wiki…

    ‘One belief of Scientology is that a human is an immortal alien, i.e. extraterrestrial, spiritual being, termed a thetan, that is trapped on Earth in a physical body. Hubbard described these “thetans” in a “Space Opera” cosmogony. The thetan has had innumerable past lives and it is accepted in Scientology that lives preceding the thetan’s arrival on Earth lived in extraterrestrial cultures. Descriptions of these space opera incidents are seen as true events by Scientologists.’

    Vote Romney.

  181. Mr Rudd and Mr Abbott both addressed the Chinese community function at Minchinbury today, Mr Rudd wowing his largely Chinese audience by delivering his speech in both Mandarin and English. He was mobbed by Chinese well-wishers after his speech.
    Responding to Mr Abbott, Mr Rudd said he had ‘‘no comment’’ on the claim that Labor was at war with itself.
    He said Mr Abbott was merely seeking to divert attention from his own failure to state a detailed vision for the country. Asked again today if he would rule out a challenge against Ms Gillard, Mr Rudd said he had nothing to add to his statements in February.

    Asked also if he had ‘‘ghostwritten’’ Ms McKew’s forthcoming book, Tales from the Political Trenches, Mr Rudd responded with: ‘‘For anyone to accuse a prominent journalist such as Ms McKew of not being able to write her own book, is verging on sexism.’’

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/labor-is-at-war-with-itself-abbott-20121021-27z6c.html#ixzz29uHP7A7n

    I would like to add, it says little for the Liberals in Canberra, that they cannot dislodge Labor after eleven years and four elections.

  182. ‘…you trolls are talking among yourselves.’

    That’s not accurate, the blogmasta says I’m not a troll and I can vouch for Mo…he certainly isn’t a troll around here.

  183. el gordo, you have lost me. What in the hell is all that about. Romney is a Mormon, last time I looked.

  184. Nearly two out of five US adults use social media to get involved in politics, a study has shown.

    The Pew Research Center study showed that 60 per cent of adults use social networking sites like Facebook or Twitter and that two-thirds of these – 39 per cent of all US adults – use social media for civic or political activity.

    Social media users who talk about politics on a regular basis or who have firm ideological ties are the most likely to be active on the sites, the study found.

    And those aged 18-29 are ‘notably more likely than older users to have posted their own comments, as are those who have at least some college experience,’ Pew said.

    ‘Now that more than half of adults use social media, these technologies have worked their way into the rhythms of people’s lives at many levels,’ said Lee Rainie, director of the Pew Internet American Life Project.

    ‘At the height of the campaign season, it is clear that most social media users, especially those who care about politics, are using the tools to debate others, stay in touch with candidates, flag political news stories and analysis that are important to them, and press their friends into action. We’ll see the fruits of this neo-activism on Election Day.’

    About 35 per cent of social media users have used the tools to encourage people to vote, the study showed, with Democrats (42 per cent) holding an edge over Republicans (36 per cent) and independents (31 per cent).

    Around a third post their own comments or thoughts, or re-post content from someone else.

    About 21 per cent of those using Twitter or other social media belong to a group on

    http://www.skynews.com.au/politics/article.aspx?id=808018

  185. Online sensation exposes Abbott’s gender card play to millions
    BY: GEORGE MEGALOGENIS From: The Australian October 20, 2012 12:00AM

    THE power of that speech, a week and half after its delivery, is in its repetition.

    Julia Gillard’s dressing-down of Tony Abbott has already been watched more than two million times on YouTube. On present trends, the figure will cross three million before the parliament rises for the summer break.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/online-sensation-exposes-abbotts-gender-card-play-to-millions/story-e6frg7ex-1226499493184

    It is not going to go away. The PM has cut through to the core of what Abbott is about.

  186. Behind that paywall.

    ………What Gillard’s speech clarified is that Abbott doesn’t understand his opponent, even if he once got on well with her. He mistook her silence before last week as weakness. She didn’t react to the taunts because she didn’t want to seem shrill. He kept pressing, expecting that she would eventually crack. But she was biding her time, waiting for the opportunity when he over-reached.

    There was another look that crossed his face – exhaustion. He seemed to shrink as she approached her finale. Then, with a gesture that could never be scripted, she mocked him as he glanced at his watch. Abbott threw his hands up, the child protesting to the mother that he wasn’t guilty of that too. The theatre was the story; an irony given the self-serving critique that the press gallery has faced on social media. Wasn’t the problem of the 2010 campaign the reverse; that the press gallery ignored the context and focused on the trivia?

    Whether the public likes the true Julia from here on depends on whether they see her in their corner on what matters to them. Howard was able to shift the perception that he was mean and tricky by being tough when voters wanted reassurance after the twin 2001 shocks of the Tampa and September 11………….

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/online-sensation-exposes-abbotts-gender-card-play-to-millions/story-e6frg7ex-1226499493184

    I believe that the PM might have done to Mr. Abbott, what Pickering inferred in those horrible and disgusting cartoons, he sent across the Internet.

  187. CU

    Did you see this article:
    “Obama pioneered the use of social media in his 2008 campaign and is still way ahead of the Republicans in this area.

    “We’ve been working really closely to learn lessons from Obama,” a Labor source told me yesterday. “One thing we learned was you can’t tell people what to do on social media. You want to kind of receive rather than transmit. You want to have a conversation.” An example of this Obama influence is a recent Gillard video that invites people to tell the PM about their favourite teacher. The aim is to open up a discussion via video, email and Facebook about education policy and the Gonski reforms.

    Obama’s pollster advised that in advertising, too, middle-ground voters don’t want to be shouted at or told what to do or think. They want information and a chance to deliberate on it.

    Consequently many of Obama’s TV commercials have been longer than the usual 30 seconds, are delivered in a soft rather than hectoring voice, refer to a plan, and provide an internet link where voters can get more information.

    Labor is already looking at a similar approach.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/taking-notes-on-americas-civil-war/story-e6frezz0-1226499521232

  188. Sue, I have not seen that article, but I am aware that Obama pioneered the technique in the last election. I am also aware that Cory Bernardi has spent a lot of time in the USA, studying the Tea Party methods.

    I believe the PM hit with that speech, the statement she made about not being lectured by that man. I believed that hit home to a lot of people.

    Abbott and his cohorts lecture all the time. They continually make statements that the PM has to do, or learn etc.

    They also continue to tell the public what they have to think.

    The same is true with the trolls which visit. I also believe the trolls are a part of Bernadi’s and Menzie’s House team. It is not accidental, they come onto sites saying something, and the Liberals pick it up the next day. They are so scripted.

    I will leave el gordo out of that description.

    What is true, the carbon tax and man made climate change are a dead issue.

    We are entering, I believe a new political climate.

    Mr. Abbott’s outburst saying that the next election will be the most filthy and personal we have seen. Wonder who the focus group where naming. I suspect, it was aimed at Mr. Abbott, himself.

  189. ‘Romney is a Mormon, last time I looked.’

    My bad, I get confused with these new religions coming out of Amerika.

  190. ‘What is true, the carbon tax and man made climate change are a dead issue.’

    Politically, in the US election, neither side wants to talk about it. In Oz, because of the tax, it will probably remain a festering sore.

  191. Whether the public likes the true Julia from here on depends on whether they see her in their corner on what matters to them. Howard was able to shift the perception that he was mean and tricky by being tough when voters wanted reassurance after the twin 2001 shocks of the Tampa and September 11.

    But there is a more serious question for Abbott. The odour of sexism will linger because he has been playing the gender card against Gillard. He drew it from the bottom of the deck, on behalf of the minority of men who may never get used to the idea of a female PM. What he never counted on was Gillard calling his bluff. Now that she has, the idea that Abbott can unify the nation if he wins the next election seems just that little bit harder to imagine.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/online-sensation-exposes-abbotts-gender-card-play-to-millions/story-e6frg7ex-1226499493184

    The gender card will stick because Mr. Abbott has been playing it.

    It matters not whether he is misogynistic or not. He uses their techniques. In a way, that makes him worse in my opinion.

  192. Cu, …”The same is true with the trolls which visit. I also believe the trolls are a part of Bernadi’s and Menzie’s House team. It is not accidental, they come onto sites saying something, and the Liberals pick it up the next day. They are so scripted.
    “I will leave el gordo out of that description.”…… OMG special trearment ;)
    Someone here once said that the Trolls have the same IP. I think it was Ricky Pan or ?????
    Would be interesting to find out for sure. ;)

  193. CU
    ” I also believe the trolls are a part of Bernadi’s and Menzie’s House team. It is not accidental, they come onto sites saying something, and the :Liberals pick it up the next day. They are so scripted.”

    You’ve just cracked me up! Nothing could be further from the truth! I came here at first for entertainment but now for a little challenge during a break from work. I can’t tell you many times I’ve been tempted to splash a little Pickering around here but refrained out of respect and hopefully a reasonable discussion.

    “they come onto sites saying something, and the :Liberals pick it up the next day.”

    Frankly I’d be chuffed if anyone picked up and ran with anything I wrote. Could it be that you’re drawing too long a bow here?

    “What is true, the carbon tax and man made climate change are a dead issue”

    Just because insiders made the point doesn’t mean it’s true. Wishful thinking is often the hallmark of the out of touch so be careful what you wish for because this one IMO is sleeping and only because bigger fish are about to fry. The AWU scandal has not gone away and the boats is another matter.

  194. LOVO, whether they are or not, we do not know. But they all follow the same script.

    We need to learn to ignore them. Not let ourselves be diverted from the message we want to get out.

    We all need to become more disciplined. There is no good to come from engaging with them. None at all.

  195. LOV

    Same IP? It’s hard to dignify that with a response.

    CU

    I’ve read the Megalogenis OP in Australian several times now and do agree with this:

    “Whether the public likes the true Julia from here on depends on whether they see her in their corner on what matters to them.”

    At least George has been honest with himself here…there is no telling how many of the 2 million views were turned off by Gillard’s speech!

  196. Yes, we do indeed when it comes to trolls.

    At the best, they are here to have fun at our expense,

    At worst, they are about diverting us from the message we want to get out.

    Either way, it is not to our advantage to treat them with normal good manners.

    They need to be ignored.

  197. Trolls, maybe you can tell me what has been achieved with trolls controlling the debate on this site over the last few days.

    What new information have we been exposed to. None, I suggest. Just a rehashed of what has been done to death in the past.

  198. *scroll the troll*(s)….. :D …..have just started doing that with the Tea Party follower…. ( can’t even begin to understand how anyone can follow that kind of anti-australian crap.)

  199. Most of what trolls put forwarded is mainly un-Australian. We need to identify them for what they are. Traitors to the county.

  200. Trolls please tell us why Mr. Abbott will be better.

    We know what you think of the PM. We have taken that on board.

    What we have not heard, is why Abbott will be a superior PM.

    I suspect we will not hear, as you are incapable of telling us why.. The simple truth is, that he will not be,

    Mr. Abbott has nothing to offer.

  201. This week, I believe we are going to hear from the government how they are going to pay for future promises.

    It is all about priories.

    The opposition has demanded this, while criticizing the government for bringing down the mid year projections early. The opposition cannot have it both ways.

  202. ‘…what has been achieved with trolls controlling the debate on this site over the last few days.’

    I’m not a troll and I’m unpatriotic, but I got a lot out of the discussion. Spencer’s sine wave maybe dodgy and Dark Age cooling was warmer than the LIA.

  203. I’m not a troll and I’m unpatriotic, but I got a lot out of the discussion. Spencer’s sine wave maybe dodgy and Dark Age cooling was warmer than the LIA.

    What literally talking to yourself.

    As for Bolt, he left the land of reality today.

    Looking at the comments, no one else was interested.

  204. Maybe others who have passed through. Would like to tell us how interesting they have found the site in the last couple of days. From where I am sitting, it has been boring in the extreme.

  205. CU, the conversation has been about as engaging as watching pain dry, as Treetroll and the wingnuts sing the same old, worn out song ad infinitum.
    Trying to get through to them is like trying to drill a hole in granite with a pubic hair.

    Their entire purpose is to goad with ludicrous statements in the hope that someone will engage them.

    Everyone needs to treat them with the respect they deserve….calling out BLAH BLAH BLAH as we scroll the trolls. :evil: :evil: :evil:

    Cheers

  206. Like el gordo, I’m not a troll and or unpatriotic, second guesses about my motives for commenting here have been quite laughable and have reinforced the need to keep you lot on your game. Like el gordo I’ve learned something here and that is how entrenched you are in climate denial yourselves while accusing me of the same. As for CO2 and carbon tax being a dead issue, David Rose has written another article which you all may find quite interesting. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2220722/Global-warming-The-Mail-Sunday-answers-world-warming-not.html and Judith Curry has made some comments with which warming pause deniers will not be comfortable. http://judithcurry.com/2012/10/21/sunday-mail-again/#more-10247

    Here is Curry’s comment on the second article:

    “I think that David Rose’s 2nd article is well done. He lays out the arguments that the other ‘side’ is making, and provides his response. It is a reasonable portrayal of the debate surrounding this issue. (no gripes about my picture this time )

    This whole situation is a very interesting example of the interplay betweeen the MSM, the blogosphere and twitter. The MSM goes with a provocative headline. There is more detailed analysis and broader discussion in the blogs. And there is a cacophony of barking tweets from both sides.

    The ‘facts’, such as they exist, are the data; in this case the latest release of HADCRUT4. This is new data, so people haven’t yet had much time to analyze and interpret it. However these data end up being analyzed, the trend since 1997 is very small, much smaller than the decadal trend of 0.2C that we have been led to expect by the IPCC for the early part of the 21st century. The whole issue of cherry picking start and end dates is a red herring, as I’ve argued in my previous post Trends, change points and hypotheses. It depends on what hypothesis you are trying to test. If you are using data to evaluate the IPCC’s projection of 0.2C/decade warming in the first two decades of the 21st century, with plateaus or pauses at most of 15-17 yrs duration, well then you can pick whatever start date you want. It will be very interesting to see what Press Complaints Commission comes up with regarding Rose’s article”

  207. Oh I missed the most important bit of Curry’s comment:

    “The bottom line for me is that David Rose’s article has stimulated an interesting debate on an important and controversial topic. These exchanges in the MSM, blogosphere and twitosphere have hopefully enlightened and provoked critical thinking amongst the group that pays most attention to these things. Of course both sides are using this exchange in the MSM to ‘keep score’ in the climate wars, where the casualty tends to be honest debate”

    Take note Cafe Whisperers and learn!

  208. Methinks it’s you who needs to learn Treeman and I see your arrogance is up there with Iain’s.

    It’s about time I treated Treeman’s arrogance the way I treated Iain’s.

  209. Very entrenched and proudly so.

    Suggest you trolls are wasting your time on this site. Most have put much thought into their views and are not for turning.

    Most are long past discussing man made global warming. We have moved on to things that interest us in this century, not leftovers from last.

    More interested in the ranting of Mr. Hockey this morning, criticizing the Treasurer and Treasury because they do not have the ability to see into the future.

    Complaining that Mr. Swan saying that low and middle income earners will not be touched,, means everyone else will be. I take that to mean that the wealthy will be in the firing line.

    Then he ranted on about Mr. Rudd’s MRRT. Not too sure if he meant that is the one we should have. Funny, Mr. Rudd’s scheme would have meant the miners paying a lot more.

    Agree with Mr. Hockey, if that is what he meant. Does he mean that Mr. Abbott intends to replace the Gillard MRRT with the Rudd’s. Do not believe so.

  210. Climate Heretic: Judith Curry Turns on Her Colleagues

    That’s a good piece on Judith Curry by the way. Fair and she seems genuine if not erratic.

    Of course let’s just overlook the fact that Rose, who has deliberately fabricated data and work in the past, claimed the information was from the UK Met, thus lying again.

    If any of the proponents of Climate Change had done a fraction of that, even just putting a word out of place, the deniers would be slavering at the mouth and typing their butts off in condemnation.

  211. Catching Up (yet?)

    “As for Bolt, he left the land of reality today. Looking at the comments, no one else was interested. Have a closer look an note that many of Bolta’s posts have no comments because moderators have been cut back….It’s really best not to go off half cocked CU.

    You suggest trolls have been controlling the debate here. Wow opportunity seldom knocks so I’ll go on.

    “What we have not heard, is why Abbott will be a superior PM. I suspect we will not hear, as you are incapable of telling us why.. The simple truth is, that he will not be,
    Mr. Abbott has nothing to offer”

    For starters your lot have been working hard at trying to get mud to stick on Abbott. The best they have been able to do is the punching the wall case which at best was a phantom punch which no-one saw! Abbott will, at the very least not have an AWU scandal hanging over him when and if he’s elected. You’ve been banging on about Abbott’s lack of policy but why would he make the same mistake as bot Rudd and Gillard, promising the earth and then having to duck for cover because they couldn’t deliver or because it all fell in a heap! I won’t elaborate because you know what i’m talking about and if you do ask, I’ll be happy to lay it all out!

    Spellcheck required:

    “This week, I believe we are going to hear from the government how they are going to pay for future promises.

    It is all about priories…..

    Suggest pillories would be more appropriate but let’s see how Swan goes first!

    “The opposition has demanded this, while criticizing the government for bringing down the mid year projections early. The opposition cannot have it both ways.”

    Of course the opposition demands proof of how labor will pay for its promises but I doubt they demanded this mini budget. As for criticism of it, I’ve only seen that from Terry McCrann…Fact CU facts will get a whisper over the line and BTW if you really want this blog top be one sided and less boring you could moderate out stuff that you don’t like or doesn’t suit your message…

  212. Mobius

    “Judith Curry protests that she was misrepresented by the article in the Daily Mail”

    Not sure where you got that but this is what she says today:

    “I’m prepared to work with reporters on their articles. This time, David Rose sent me my quotes in advance, along with the content surrounding them; I made a few minor changes to make the message more clear and more accurate and he incorporated these changes verbatim in the article”

    Hardly misrepresentation is it?

  213. OH dear…

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/awu-stalwart-calls-for-slush-fund-inquiry/story-fn59niix-1226500276370

    A LONG-TIME staunch Labor supporter and former union boss is calling for a public inquiry into a secret slush fund at the heart of a fraud scandal that has dogged Julia Gillard since 1995.

    Tim Daly, a Labor member for 35 years and head of the Australian Workers Union in Western Australia for a decade until 2008, said the slush fund was unprecedented in its operation, secrecy and the very large amounts of cash it raised.

    A senior forensic accountant, John Lourens, who is analysing account records and legal documents related to the slush fund, states in a newly released report that “at a minimum, the AWU financial swindle involves a misappropriation of $880,663″.

  214. Gee, we have upset the tree. He tries so hard to get up that old scandal, that has little to do with the PM.

  215. Yes, I have caught up and am far ahead of you.

    I not mired in the past, as you seem to be.

    Sadly, you seem to be on all fronts.

  216. Mired in the past….accept you may think that but if you look closely most of what I post here is the latest and nearly all of what has been thrown back at me is dated and even outdated. Happily for me I’ve a little more time and will remain “on all fronts” for a while yet.

  217. ‘Looking at the comments, no one else was interested.’

    CU the Bolter can’t afford a mod…the good old days are over.

  218. ‘Of course both sides are using this exchange in the MSM to ‘keep score’ in the climate wars, where the casualty tends to be honest debate”

    Curry is well informed…

  219. ‘A note to defenders of the idea that the planet has been warming for the past 16 years. Raise the level of your game. Nothing in the Met Office’s statement .  .  . effectively refutes Mr Rose’s argument that there has been no increase in the global average surface temperature for the past 16 years.

    ‘Use this as an opportunity to communicate honestly with the public about what we know and what we don’t know about climate change. Take a lesson from other scientists who acknowledge the “pause”.’

    Judith Curry

  220. ‘Their entire purpose is to goad with ludicrous statements in the hope that someone will engage them.’

    Treeman and me have been around the blogosphere for years and enjoy the debate, its a lot of fun and intellectually stimulating.

    Curry is correct, the warmists have to acknowledge that global warming has paused and this requires scientists to discuss what is happening. With post normal science fully active, its stands to reason that this will reach the msm through blogs.

    Talking of which, in my humble opinion Treeman could take on the Deltoidians and win.

  221. Last year, we talked about perception and the PM. Very little of the public perceptions are based on little or no facts.

    If the PM was ever able to turn that perception around, she would rise quickly in the polls.

    The same goes for the perception the public has of Abbott. One has only had to listen to the question of Abbott and Hockey today.

    Like the boy who cried wolf once too often, I feel that they have also stopped listening to Abbott’s scares.

    What else has he got going for him. Nothing I know of.

  222. Thanks el gordo but far bigger fish to fry than Tim the smug, swaggering, arrogant, cocksure, and of course, always right, never conceding anything antithesis of a proper scientist Lambert…

    Right now the challenge is to take Gillard to task at the UN. In the light of our recent successful bid for a seat on the Security Council and as a signatory to the United Nations Convention against Corruption the AWU scandal deserves more than the coverage given it by the Oz MSM.

  223. These days Lambert’s mob have dwindled to a handful of regular old men talking up the faith. Tim’s ill it seems and so he’s been running open threads…that blog may have exceeded its used by date.

    ‘…deserves more than the coverage given it by the Oz MSM.’

    It does …probably you’re the first one to join the dots, life moves slower here.

  224. Rrrright – I see now. Tin foil hats at 20 paces :roll:

    You’re going to organise to prosecute the Australian government in the UN for a fraud allegedly committed by a union organiser in about 1992, because Australia now has a seat on the Security Council?

    You really don’t have a clue, do you trollman?

  225. Bacchus, please do not encourage them. This one is a beauty. Look at where they have bought the numbers of visitors. Most have given up. Let them talk to themselves.

  226. HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

    I see that the Global Warming Doomsday Cultists are still trying to push their little red wagons.

    Hey, CO2 has increasd but the global temps are not rising. Even a brain dead leftist must admit that it is not adding up. I say lets get more of that CO2 into the atmosphere! I reckon 550ppm would be great for the planet.

    I see that even Labor’s own want an investigation into the AWU/Wilson/Gilltramp scandal. Your defence of the squatter in the lodge is noted…I’m buying into egg futures.

    Deltoid? Run by a person that plays the electronic crystal ball to predict the future? Didn’t see that wank site win a science weblog award.

    Here’s a challenge to you cultists. Take your delusion to Jo Nova’s site and see how you fare. You’d get roasted there by reasoned thinking. Calling someone a troll won’t cut it because that is the modus operandi of someone that can not mount a reasonable argument.

    If not, I’m sure I could get some here.

    I wonder how fucking brave you would be face to face. Ah, the blogs…makes lions out of mice. More cheese???

  227. Wonder why the conservatives have gone quiet on the polls. They usually jump up and down and scream doom and gloom for Labor until kingdom come whenever they come out. But now strangely quiet.

    Might be this:

    ALP (50.5%) LEADS L-NP (49.5%) – FIRST TIME SINCE JANUARY 2012

  228. Meanwhile down at Essential Vision, and two weeks after the shout heard ’round the world, Essential Media records no change at all to the two-party preferred vote: 47 per cent for Labor, 53 to the Coalition. Kinda makes one think that the shout was heard but not well applauded…

  229. 47 per cent for Labor

    There is something wrong with that number. Forty seven percent of the country still supports the most deceitful govt in my lifetime.

    The only thing that comes into my mind is love is blind.

  230. What I cannot work out is why so many are still following the LNP, considering their leader is a confessed LIAR.

  231. What I cannot work out is why so many are still following the LNP, considering their leader is a confessed LIAR.”

    It was Gillard who shook hands, verbally agreed and signed a document that she would do what Wilkie proposed if Wilkie would allow Gillard to form govt.

    Gillard lied to win govt. Wilkie admits he was betrayed but Wilkie I guess does not care. He is another person who will support Labor no matter how many lies Labor tells.

  232. NoS who said Gillard Lied to win government, can you provide the proof in that statement.

    Yes the PM did sign an agreement with several of the Independents to form Govt. because they knew TA would call an election if he was given the the position of PM, thus causing more confusion for the country.

  233. This is part of the essential Polling that I find interesting. It seems more people trust the PM, Julia Gillard than Opposition leader TA

    The major perceived differences between the Prime Minister Julia Gillard and the Opposition Leader Tony Abbott were that Julia Gillard was more likely to be someone that “understands the challenges facing Australian women” (+23%), “has the right temperament to be Prime Minister” (+16%) and has “good parental leave policies” (+9%).

    Tony Abbott was more likely to be associated with “too influenced by their religious beliefs” (+24%), “has difficulty controlling their aggression” (+19%) and “would be embarrassing as Prime Minister of Australia” (+7%).

    http://essentialvision.com.au/category/essentialreport

  234. Mobius Ecko
    The Morgan poll 50.5% to 49.5% is a face to face poll, interesting. So obviously the Newspoll 50%-50% was not a “rogue” result, just the trend

  235. NoS who said Gillard Lied to win government, can you provide the proof in that statement.

    http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2012/01/22/294285_todays-news.html

    PRIME Minister Julia Gillard’s broken promise to deliver the pokies reforms that secured her government has prompted key Tasmanian independent MP Andrew Wilkie to abandon Labor.

    Gillard also promised there will be business tax cuts

    http://www.smh.com.au/business/federal-budget/gillard-vows-to-cut-company-tax-sometime-20120509-1yc54.html

    The government had promised to use revenue from its new mining tax to drop the corporate tax rate from 30 per cent to 29 per cent from July 1.”

    Another lie. In fact they have made business pay more money. Gillard is the most deceitful PM in my lifetime. This can only mean the people who vote for here are also deceitful human beings.

  236. So you’re saying that people that also vote for TA are also voting for a liar, a renowned liar, who stated he lied on National TV.

    NoS, this from the same article, you forgot to mention,

    For the first time, Families Minister Jenny Macklin also confirmed the Government was warned last year that Mr Wilkie’s preferred 2014 timetable for mandatory bet limits was not achievable – advice that Mr Wilkie was also provided.

    The main elements of the new reforms that are expected to win Parliament’s approval include:

    All new pokie machines manufactured after 2013 must be capable of supporting bet limits to prepare for a future government to flick the switch on the reforms;

    Machines to be upgraded to support voluntary or mandatory pre-commitment by 2016;

    Cash withdrawal limits at ATMs in gaming venues of $250 a day from February 2013; Electronic warnings on poker machines by 2016 and 50 new financial counsellors, and

    A trial of mandatory pre-commitment bet limits in Canberra from early next year with taxpayers to compensate venues.

    So something is being done on poker machine reform.

  237. Interesting stat for the “Libs are better economic managers” meme…

  238. Gosh the Cafe is normally full of deceitful human beings its a wonder such wankers, like the recent influx of Abbott supporters, bother to come by. I suppose that even their usual confidants are sick of their superiority.
    Oh well back to letting them yell and rant its not as though their opinions will make any difference to the usual patrons.

  239. It is as the PM predicted back early in the year, that from July on, Mr, Abbott would be seen for what he is, and that the polls would slowly swing Labor’s way. There is still plenty of time until the next election for Labor’s to be seen in a better light.

    I think what we will see from now on, the more hate talk and name calling aimed at the PM, will only lead to her support growing.

    Mr. Abbott’s has said no more than one time too many. That is what one expects from him now, no matter the topic.

    I also predicted that as Labor’s influence grew, we would be flooded with trolls, probably trolls nastier than we have had to deal with ih\n the past. Trolls who job is to kill sites such as this one.

    We probably should take it as a compliment, that they see us as a danger to the Abbott campaign. If we were nor effective, they would not be here.

    I expect a slow but gradual improvement in the polls to Labor.

    Now, if some here do not agree, I am not that interested in what you have to say.

    Has anyone noticed, our latest trolls are very thinned skinned and do not like to be criticized.

    Just like their master, quick to hand it out, but squeal like stuck pigs when it is returned to them. Quick to criticize, but slow to acknowledge they might just be wrong. Slow to realize they are not wanted, with their negativity, and continual criticism of the PM. Slow to realize, they are wasting their and more important, out time..

  240. What I cannot work out is why so many are still following the LNP, considering their leader is a confessed LIAR.

    Love of WorkChoices. (What else has the LNP got?) They won’t be happy till their neighbours and loved ones are on third world wages and working conditions.

  241. Sue, we have two options, move over and let them take the place over. The other is to compete with them. Just ignore what they say It looks like most have taken the first option.

    It is a shame to see such a good site go down hill so quickly.

    It is a long time since we have seen numbers in the 70’s on that bar.

  242. So something is being done on poker machine reform.”

    Gillard lied to Wilkie to win govt.

    They won’t be happy till their neighbours and loved ones are on third world wages and working conditions.”

    The Coalition was in power from 1996-2007. Please show me when we were on third world wages. I can honestly say I have never met anyone more dishonest than an ALP supporter. The reason I know that Gillard is a deceitful human being is that YOU voted for her.

  243. The PM has promised Wilkie, that when the circumstances arise, that his bill can get through the house, she will be supporting it.

  244. CU

    I have to say it again. Love is blind. If you cannot see Gillards deceit you are beyond hope.

    Did she not say that she there is more chance of her becoming a full forward in the AFL before she challenged Rudd to be PM of Australia??

    She betrayed Rudd and she betrayed Wilkie. And I suspect she has betrayed many people. It is what Gillard does.

  245. From the Essential poll.

    ‘Tony Abbott was more likely to be associated with “too influenced by their religious beliefs” (+24%), “has difficulty controlling their aggression” (+19%) and “would be embarrassing as Prime Minister of Australia” (+7%).’

    The aggression thing is a media beat up, the religious burden will probably always dog him (his cross to bare), and will be an embarrassing PM because he puts his foot in mouth far too often.

    Still, I’m prepared to give him a go…the Indonesians like him.

  246. I think one of the reasons why the right wing bloggers come here, is that the right wing blog that they run have no one going there to discuss their opinions because they know that it is a lost cause, the right have no policies, they have a leader who lies on national TV, a shadow treasurer who cannot add up, a deputy leader who stands behind every leader and says they are the one to lead this country, how many is that I have lost count, the nationals that only can get 3% of the national vote, that is 8% lower than the greens, and can someone please explain to me why people want a LNP government that wants to trash the country.

  247. El gordo

    “the Indonesians like him”
    You may be wrong on that. Did you see the photo of Abbott meeting the locals. Abbott had his booted foot perched on the table where food is prepared. There is a reason why shoes are removed before entering houses. So to put a shoe on a table is highly offensive. There was another offensive visual in that photo but I won’t go in to that, have a look for yourself, That is if it is still around, it may have been pulled by the msm.

  248. ‘I also predicted that as Labor’s influence grew, we would be flooded with trolls, probably trolls nastier than we have had to deal with in the past. Trolls whose job it is to kill sites such as this one.’

    Funny that…I see it differently. These so called vicious trolls (who shall remain nameless) are here to mop up the remnants of the rusted ons.

  249. Sue

    Yeah…the monk is probably an accident waiting to happen. Talcum is preferred by the electorate, but the Nats won’t abide him for obvious reasons.

  250. I think one of the reasons why the right wing bloggers come here

    I guess you are talking about me. I would prefer to be called an honest blogger rather than right wing.

    My first comment on blogs ever was on Tim Dunlops blog before the 2007 election. People who post on this blog also posted on Dunlops blog. I am well known by the people who post here.

    I am usually called a pest rather than a troll. Min has been trying to exterminate me for years but she has yet to find a pesticide to get rid of me.

    I usually come here to find out what not to believe. I find out the truth by finding out what ALP supporters believe. I then believe the opposite.

  251. Oh well, after a brief period of normalcy, pvo is back to mordors work, making shit uo as they go along

    what a dumbass lol

  252. No, Neil, I do not mean you. I believe you are genuine in your beliefs. Misguided maybe, but genuine. I do not believe you are here to undermine the site. I might also put el gordo in the same school.

    We all have a soft spot for both of you.

    It is the others, who are just plain nasty and out to destroy. They have no respect for the views of others, therefore cannot expect to be treated with respect.

    Sorry Neil, I thought that you would understand that. Talking about debt all the time, does get a little tiresome.

    We have many good visitors and commenters to this site. Why should they have to endure the bad manners of others, who have little to contribute..

  253. Neil, I see the PM as an honest person. I do hope that you will also come to see that is true.

    I seer Mr. Abbott as one of the most dishonest politicians this country has seen. I believe history will write him up as such.

  254. Morrison is saying he was misquoted when he said a minimum f five years. Q&A. Getting himself in a knot.,

  255. Q and A is interesting tonight. Morrison is not having anything his own way.

    Yes, the public is concerned, but I am far from sure, that Abbott’s view is attracting much support, nor is Vanstone.

  256. Both Vanstone and Morrison are ignoring the fact, that they are not being allowed to come to Australia.

  257. Until the PM made that speech, many of the public did not realize the nature of the abuse, aimed at the PM by Mr. Abbott and his team.

    Everything in her speech cannot be substantiated. There is not one lie or one example that cannot be backed up by just Googling on the web.

    Australians at the end of the day, do believe in a fair go, and are more likely to support what they see as the underdog.

  258. Sue, also it does not hurt, that many women feel the same as the PM does. It appears, according to recent polling, many men do as well.

    It this PM does no more that break the mould, that has destroyed every state women leader, she will go down in history as a success.

  259. More lies from Gillard…
    1. There will be a company tax cut under a government I lead
    2. Gillard launches Labor’s election campaign, August, 2010: … we will cut taxes for all businesses in this country… I stand for tax cuts, tax benefits, tax relief for every Australian business.
    3. March, 2011 – There will be a company tax cut under a government I lead, insists Gillard:
    4. Prime Minister Julia Gillard will push ahead with corporate tax cuts funded by the mining tax, despite a new push by the Greens to use the money for health and community services… “We are committed to cutting the company tax rate through the minerals resource rent tax package of bills that comes to the federal parliament,” she told reporters in Perth.
    5. December, 2011 – There will be company tax cuts in 2012 under a government I lead, says Gillard:
    The Labor leader outlined her priorities for 2012 to build on the “year of decision and delivery” in 2011, saying the federal government was on track to create more than 300,000 extra jobs in the next two years.
    6. “In 2012 we will cut taxes, lift family payments and lift the pension … cut company tax, lift super and build infrastructure,” she said…

    7. May, 2012…Prime Minister Julia Gillard says she remains determined to give business a tax cut even though the government scrapped a promise to do so in the budget. The government had promised to use revenue from its new mining tax to drop the corporate tax rate from 30 per cent to 29 per cent from July 1. Instead the money will be used to provide upfront payments to lower income families and create new tax breaks for small business.
    8. May – There will still be company tax cuts under a government I lead, saysGillard…I’m very determined to deliver a company tax cut.

    9. June 14: There will be a “priority” on company tax cuts under a government I lead, says Gillard…Prime Minister Julia Gillard says her economic forum has identified cuts to the company tax rate as a priority.

    10. The Government announced in the May budget that it was breaking its promise to reduce the rate by 1 percentage point because it could not get enough support from the Greens or the Coalition.

    11. Today – yet another broken promise from the most deceitful Prime Minister in history.

    LABOR will reap $8.3 billion over the next four years by forcing big companies to pay their taxes in monthly instalments. ..

    Under the new company tax arrangements, companies with an annual turnover of more than $1 billion will be forced to pay corporate tax in monthly instalments. The change will apply to companies with a turnover of more than $100 million from January 1, 2015.

    Not only will there not be a cut in company tax. There is in fact a savage increase – the very opposite of what was promised.

  260. Treeman, go away and find a big rock to crawl under. We are not interested in what you have to say. I say this, because you do not respect our views. Until you are willing to do this, please leave us alone.

    I do not believe I am being unreasonable.

  261. ‘It is the others, who are just plain nasty and out to destroy. They have no respect for the views of others, therefore cannot expect to be treated with respect.’

    If the blog becomes dominated by ‘contrarian views’ on CC or conservative political belief, then its what the blog needs to remain relevant.

    The insularity around here can be stultifying at times, now you all have the opportunity to test your theories in a robust environment.

    You have a fine warrior in young Tom who is battled hardened and can wear an opponent down with just hair splitting. No doubt he will rejoin the fray first thing tomorrow morn.

  262. el gordo, suggest that Turnbull is preferred by the leftists in the electorate, not by the electorate in general.

    Sue, comments in the Guardian mean little when it comes to a balanced perspective on Australian politics. Tey can’t even deliver reality in their own country!

    CU

    “I see Mr. Abbott as one of the most dishonest politicians this country has seen. I believe history will write him up as such.”

    For me, your seeing is not necessarily believing, especially when the PM lies and deceives ad nauseum. CU I thought you were here to to get the word out…this seems more like prophecy or soothsaying!

  263. I’ll fix that for you eg:

    Tony Abbott and the Libs say “the Indonesians like him.” Anyone with eyes can see the truth ;)

  264. CU
    This is supposed to be an open thread is it not? Respecting views is part of it but putting them is equally relevant. Anyway who said I don’t respect your views? To be truthful it’s hard to respect vitriol and abuse that I get in return for reasonable comment. I don’t swear or denigrate others here, well maybe a little gentle stirring but let’s face it this blog has never had so many comments or diversity of views. Dare I suggest you might show some gratitude?

  265. Not only will there not be a cut in company tax. There is in fact a savage increase – the very opposite of what was promised.

    Trollman – you know very well that is wrong. I wonder why you purposely seek to mislead so? ;) The tax rates have not changed one iota, merely the timing of payments due to the government. From what I can gather, this only has an effect in the first year of implementation…

  266. el gordo, if it is so bad, why do you keep coming back. You came back, after banning yourself.

    I suspect it is because you get treated here with more respect, than you do anywhere else.

    Alternative views are welcome. So are good manners. We do not push our views down the throats of others. We do not lecture.

    We expect the same from our visitors. Put your point of view, but leave it there. If we agree we will say so. At the same time, we .reserve the right to disagree.

    You are free to disagree with us. You are not entitled to lecture or call us stupid because we do not agree with you.

    Hockey once again gets a hard time on Lteline., He does not appreciate the fact.

    Hockey is sure having a hard time. Not getting far though.

  267. Yes, it is an open thread. Nothing wrong with that. It is not an open invitation to insult all that disagree with you, or gives one a license to lecture.

  268. It is about putting forwarded a view and having others opinions on it. It is not about being called idiots because we disagree. It is not about forever attacking and our PM..

    It is not about carrying on with one’s own private crusade, which most of us, is just not interested..

    Suggest, if this is what you want to do, set up your own site,

    Not take over someone else site..

    It is not hard to do.

    it is about having good manners. It is about treating others with respect.

    I believe many here will enjoy listening to a repeat of Lateline tonight.. Hockey was sure made to explain what he was putting forward. About time the media were doing their job.

  269. Congrats to The Cafe Whispers mob…… the *trolls* are out and about, trying to shut things down here….. d’oh…… huge praises to all (except the you know who :D ) ….. guess thier under orders…… guess they think that that some how passes for democracy…. guess I don’t give 2 FFFarthings 4 thier usual ‘english school boy, old school tie’ antic’s…..
    oh, and one other thing…..Scraps said…
    “I wonder how fucking brave you would be face to face. Ah, the blogs…makes lions out of mice. More cheese???
    Cobba, I ‘taint no lion…and I ‘aint lie’n…. but I got’s to tell ya….. face to face you say…….mmm! Mice you say…. mmmm!…. gee, what an *alpha* you ;art…. no, roolly…. your so special…. ah, the blogs… whoosie little LNP office types being *alpha* males.. ugg :lol: ……. mate, I don’t think so.. UGG. :mrgreen:

  270. “CU I thought you were here to to get the word out…this seems more like prophecy or soothsaying!CU I thought you were here to to get the word out…this seems more like prophecy or soothsaying!”

    Tree, unlike you, I am not here for anything. I just believe that after living 71 years on this earth, many years not easy, I have an opinion that has some validity.

    I have enjoyed good times. I have endured what most would consider disastrous. I have worked in factories and worse, I came from what most would describe as a middle class background. I went to Uni late in life. I raised four children, much of the time on my own.

    I lived through the Menzies years. Even voted, I am ashamed to say, for the DLP. I remember the Whitlam years, with great clarity. I was house bound at the time, with four young children, no money and a radio. Missed very little of the drama.

    Yes, I have been members of unions and Labor. Mostly, I am proud to say, in left wing branches of Guildford and Cabramatta.

    Yes, I have lived among the people from Muslim and Vietnam,countries. Also my father was a wheat and sheep cocky.

    I have worked both in disability and child protection. Yes, I do believe I have something to say..

    What have you done, that makes you so superior.

    I would like to add, that some of the bad, was because of bad decisions I made. I trusted others. Yes. I take responsibility for my own mistakes. At least, I am able to recognize I have made mistakes, unlike many others. who believe they are always correct, never wrong.

    No, I am not here for any reason, that testing my views in the public arena. I am not here to convert anyone, or push anyone barrow,

    Can you claim the same.

  271. I believe that it was the 55+t that changed their perception of the PM following her speech. If that is true, it is bad for Abbott.

  272. …my wordpess thingy has turned green…(.either that or my monitor is chuck’n a wobbly :D ) I liked it when it ’twas purple :( … just say’n ;)

  273. If the blog becomes dominated by ‘contrarian views’ on CC or conservative political belief, then its what the blog needs to remain relevant.

    The trolls are planning to destroy this site by spamming it.

    There is only one remedy for this.

  274. It might be telling us that Treeman the reformed environmentailst :???: has had an epithany and has re-converted…. or it may be just a temporary clitch….which of course describes Teamans presence here….. *waves* to El G.

  275. *scrolling* ??????? or we could just go to the AusTeaParty blog, after all theres no one there…. sshhh…. :lol:

  276. That is right LOVO, no one goes to there right wing blogs, they have nothing to talk about, no policies, just the failing of the LNP, AJ, TA falling in the polls, the LNP falling in the polls, Andrew Bolt and his right wing conspiracies, a new leader in the SA liberal party, the liberal state govts sending their respective states broke, etc etc

  277. Hey LOVO – your avatar is based on your email address. If you’ve mis-typed just one character, you’ll get a different avatar.

    Oh dear, did I just add an extra character to my email address? ;)

  278. But your post re the right whinge blogs is most pertinent (no one there) – explains why they choose to infect real blogs with their poison…

  279. I would prefer to be called an honest blogger rather than right wing.

    A wingnut trying to have it both ways. You can’t be both right wing and honest.

  280. then its what the blog needs to remain relevant.

    I DISAGREE!

    All it does is tax my scrolling finger :(

    First it was grodo, now treeman. repetitive, inaccurate drivel. Although, I read Bacchus’s reply about the company tax rate, and it appears that treeman is trying to out-stupid pvo, who now has this up as his ‘defence’ of his stupidity earlier

    Sorry pete, it has nothing to do with 13/14. Your initial comment clearly said they fudged it to bring forward $8billion THIS year. Just man up and face the facts. I don’t think Labor are as keen about a surplus in 13/14, it is this year they have staked their money on, after that, all bets are off.

    I thought there might be hope for him after the jones affair. Looks like I was wrong.

    Although, the oo is going a bit soft this morning, calling it a ‘fiddle’ instead of the oppositions preferred term ‘cooking the books’. Wonder what’s going on there?

  281. “A wingnut trying to have it both ways. You can’t be both right wing and honest.”

    Gold, and oh so true.

  282. Who said this of Howard?

    “I always thought he was a commendably disciplined person and enormously psychologically strong in terms of a conception of himself and a conception of what he wanted to do next and if I can replicate some of these things I would be happy with that.”

    …and this?

    “As prime minister, Mr Howard had some fine moments and I believe when those moments are shown, we should celebrate them in a spirit of bipartisanship.”

    Compare that to the gormless negabore who is the leader of the opposition.

  283. The Morgan Poll result has not got any journalists interested.

    Must be because they would NOT able to write: “A Labor govt would still lose”.

    And how would a journalist explain the LNP primary vote falling 4.5% in two weeks. With their endless stories on Abbott being the guaranteed PM in 2013 just how would they write about Abbott having to look over his shoulder to see where the challenges will come from in the lead up to XMAS.

    So who will challenge Bishop, Robb, Morrison, Dutton someone from the back benches?

  284. Morgan has stated that on current polls an election would be too close to call.

    Very interesting data that came out of the Nielsen poll. When asked who they would preference in an election the poll came out 51:49 to Labor as compared to preferences based on the last election that has 52:48 to the Coalition.

    So polling on current voting intentions has Labor ahead in 2PP but behind based on the last election outcome. One is current the other is the past.

  285. The next time you hear Joe Hockey ranting and whining about Australia’s debt to GDP ratio keep this in mind.

    “The Eurogroup represents the 17 nations in the single currency zone and has sought to impose strict austerity measures on members with escalating debt.

    Eurostat said although annual budget deficits had fallen, eurozone public debt rose to 87.3% of GDP in 2011 from 85.4%.

    Ireland’s public debt jumped to 106.4% from 92.2% in 2010 as the benefits of spending cuts were undermined by a fall in tax receipts and a prolonged recession.

    Greece, where the crisis started, had the highest debt ratio in Europe last year, reaching 170.6% of GDP, or €355bn (£289bn). It reduced its annual deficit to 9.4% from 10.7% in 2010 and 15.6% in 2009″

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/22/eurozone-budget-deficits-fall

  286. Mobius Ecko
    Yes I read that in Nielson, which casts doubt over the latest Newspoll. In giving Abbott such a huge swing back from 50/50 to 54/46 just how contrived was the result? Or will that be labelled the Margie blip?

    The next thing we will see is Abbott bringing Margie to Canberra for the next Party Room Meeting.

  287. Compare that to the gormless negabore who is the leader of the opposition.

    To be fair ME, he did say that the PM wouldn’t just ‘lay down and die’. I guess that’s as good as it gets :(

  288. Mobius Ecko

    On the Nielson poll for fairfax and the current 2PP vote, I noted the journalists, who have all written off Gillard, based their stories on the last election 2PP. So they could still write “Labor would still lose” Rather than “Poll tightens: Too close to Call “

  289. In the last 4 years, using the latest data, the net reduction in interest costs has been around 250 basis points. This yields a saving of around $25 billion a year for the business sector based on current debt levels. When the data for the December quarter are calculated, the total reduction in interest rates since the 2008 peak will be close to 300 basis points, even if there are no further cuts in official interest rates from the RBA.

    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/interest-rates-corporate-debt-personal-borrowing-l-pd20121023-ZBR92?OpenDocument&emcontent_spectators

    And all they can do is whinge and complain

  290. The interesting and must be very worrying statistic is the over 55 swing to Labor.

    That is the age group who dominate the polls as they are mostly still on fixed voice landlines whereas the younger demographics are mobile and most no longer have any voice landline, just data.

    The population is aging with the older demographic making up an increasing proportion of that population and they normally lead conservative, which has always had me perplexed as historically they do better under Labor.

    That they are shifting to Labor will be a real worry for the Liberals but I expect they will do their usual with this demographic and run out a massive doom and gloom fear campaign, which is how they’ve always hung onto their support. Maybe, just maybe, the older generation are seeing through this baseless scaremongering.

  291. “Can you claim the same?”

    OK CU, not the same at all but the truth and equally relevant.

    At 63, I’ve lived in PNG, Central and South America and Australia before turning 18. Went to uni part time while working full time. Dropped out and went fruit picking for a few years. Joined a union when fruit picking because we had to before we could start work. Led the troops out on strike when the union the reps wouldn’t leave the air con. Forcibly took the money from itinerant workers did the unionists at Sheparton and Cobram farms and at the canning works. Wised up quickly and only worked on small farms from then on.

    Worked in horticulture since late twenties and took the good with the bad, redundancies and tough bosses were character forming at times. Even worked as a cleaner while my two youngest were at high school which as it turns out was less than edifying for them. Grandson is too young to comment on GP picking up doggie do in the gardens of the well to do. Uncle is a sheep farmer and I’ve built fences in the gidgee country with him and worn every hair off the legs mustering on horseback, tho it’s been a while now.

    My Mates will tell you that I’ve had a very hard life but I’m not about to elaborate too much here save to say that unexpected bereavements involving loved ones and ones own children better prepared me to care for my own mother at home and that almost forty years of moving nursery plants around and planting them has toughened me physically.

    I’ve learned from adversity and have many friends across a broad political spectrum which include a 78 year old former Australian Communist Party member who is now a Green. We write to each other in the same vein as my comments here and he never takes offence but occasionally calls a truce as do from time to time. My oldest daughter almost 40 votes Green as does my ex. My wife is not Anglo Saxon and has been a member of the communist party for almost 40 years. I’m not a member of any party but we all respect each others viewpoint!

    Having been self employed for most of my life and not having much in super, I must work well beyond normal retirement age. Like my CPA Mate I’ll be working well into my seventies if I’m spared. Thankfully I love my work which involves bringing practical elements to planning elements and facilitating the growing of quality trees shrubs and ground layer plants for diverse projects. These projects deliver diversity of employment across the construction, urban development, local government, architecture, engineering and legal fields, to name but a few. These projects build playgrounds for kids, parks for all ages and rehabilitate otherwise degraded bushland. That I’m able to find work on these projects for me is a great privilege.

    CU
    IMHO nothing I have done makes me superior, maybe just different. I do however love a challenge and have to say there is a distinct air of superiority here which is perhaps why I so enjoy coming back!

  292. which has always had me perplexed as historically they do better under Labor.

    I think that a lot of this demographic are the remnants of the hard-copy news readers. I know that going on my parents and their circle of friends, they all still live and breath through the broadsheets, (well broadsheet here in little ol Adelaide). They don’t get to hear about Gillards speech, or any good news for the Government for that matter. It is all heavily filtered through the medias lens.

    I’m often surprised that Labors numbers are as high as they are ;)

  293. These quotes from Swan are interesting:
    November 9, 2010:
    THERE’S no change to the revenues of the MRRT (minerals resource rent tax) that comes from anything else other than the exchange rate effect. No change at all. None whatsoever. And in fact, and this is very relevant to this debate because I think you’ll recall it well, coal and iron ore prices, of which there is much debate when this debate was raging earlier in the year, still remain relatively high. Quite high. We don’t expect to see any dramatic change in those prices.

    May 8, 2012:

    WE’RE having a mining boom, we’re just not having a revenue boom with it and that’s the problem.

    Journalist: But isn’t it going to get worse?

    Swan: Well, it’s not going to get worse.

    Press release yesterday:
    THE weaker global outlook and lower than expected commodity prices … are slowing the recovery in tax revenue. This is driving a further writedown in tax receipts of almost $22 billion over the forward estimates, almost all from company tax and resource rent taxes, with a writedown of $4bn in 2012-13 alone.

    How can anyone believe this man?

  294. Bacchus

    “Trollman – you know very well that is wrong. I wonder why you purposely seek to mislead so? The tax rates have not changed one iota, merely the timing of payments due to the government. From what I can gather, this only has an effect in the first year of implementation…”

    From what you can gather…done any sums on what this will do to the cashflow of the businesses impacted by this little tweak have you?

  295. Treeman, did Swan say what you say he did. I heard him say, that the MRRT is designed to be lower when profits are lower. Unlike royalites, which they pay, regardless of profits. Suspect some are reading their own meaning into much that was said yesterday.

    Mr. Abbott is once again inferring that the PM knows nothing about families. The inference being, she does not have kids. He is raving about the first child is still in the cot, when the second comes along. Rarely so, I would say today.

    The PM pointed out this morning, on AM, that this government supports children throughout their lives. With benefits, I would remind some, that Mr. Abbott violently opposed.

    I was surprised at the reception that pulling back on the baby bonus has been well received. Not many have a good word for it. Like Mr. Andrews view. People will stop having babies. I would be surprised if many had a baby to collect $5000.

    Does not appear to be much public outcry, with putting more restrictions on the Medicare Insurance rebate. Should lead to keeping medical costs down.

    It is good to know, that Swan will let the surplus go, if it meant more cutting to the economy. Jobs, it appears still come first.

  296. The War on Science continues on another front.

    More than 5,000 members of the scientific community sent an open letter to Italy’s President Giorgio Napolitano denouncing the trial. Their colleagues were being prosecuted for having failed to predict an earthquake: but that was a feat widely acknowledged to be impossible, they argued.

    ,
    – This action (which seems ridiculous to me) will perhaps set a precedent for future legal sanction against the agw denialists. Not necessarily wrt to the “run of the mill” denialist trolls, but the “high priests” of denial, the serial distorters, liars and fabricators who understand what they do – such as plimer, monckton, watts, lindzen, spencer, carter, m&m, – who are knowingly acting to deceive, peddling falsehoods, and well aware of the threat(s) posed by agw, and yet continue to propagate their denial and slanders in the face of the approaching disasters.

  297. did Swan say what you say he did

    He may well have CU, but, without the ‘context’ (something the msm were all keen about with Gillards speech, but have ignored ever since) it is meaningless.

    Which says it all really ;)

  298. ‘Turnbull is preferred by the leftists in the electorate, not by the electorate in general.’

    Agreed…Talcum Labor Lite.

  299. Well, Tree, why not do the same here. Respect our views. Leave the smart remarks out, and you will get on well.

    From your background, I am surprised that you have not come to the conclusion, no one has all the answers, No one is all wrong. All correct.

    Often, there is more than one correct solution.

    That it is about priories and what is important to one.

    Abbott ABC24.

    PM to set up farm ownership register.

    According to Abbott, Labor knows nothing about families. Does not Swan and Wong have children.

    PS. It is my observation, that mothers today get the baby out of the cot as soon as possible, into a low bed. Beds, by the way, that are cheap to buy. Therefore that second cot is not needed.

  300. I think, I also heard Mr. Swan say, that the ore prices had fallen, but have crept back up a little.

    Many are saying, once the Chinese sort out their leadership, which it appears that change every ten years, they will get back to dealing with their eco0nopmy, and it is expect prices will rise. No one is saying to record levels.

    Also there is the fact that India is emerging as a economic power, and will be buying into that ore market. Yes, the future still looks good.

    If Europe and USA fell, that would be a whole new game.

  301. Wayne Swan has delivered an $8 billion hit to big business and cut the generosity of the baby bonus and private health insurance rebates in a last-ditch effort to preserve his budget surplus in the face of a worsening global economic outlook. However, Mr Swan flagged that this may be the last round of budget tightening, with the government ready to switch from pursuing a surplus to stimulating the economy if conditions were to worsen further.

    Threshold: Mr Swan today confirmed the government would change its approach if unemployment crept above 5.5 per cent. “What we will choose is the economic settings which promote growth and jobs in our economy,” the Treasurer told ABC’s News Radio.

    Attack: Joe Hockey said the baby bonus cut was akin to China’s one child policy. Tony Abbott told Seven’s Sunrise programs the cuts would hurt families, but the opposition’s first priority was to get the economy going again.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/capital-circle/swan-fiddles-to-show-surplus/story-fn59nqgy-1226501218338

    My emphasis. There was little there yesterday, that indicates the economy is not travelling well. Why does Mr. Hockey need to get it going again.

    There was an effort by Mr. Swan to correct structural problems within the budget, that will lead to savings in the long term.

  302. ‘…include a 78 year old former Australian Communist Party member who is now a Green.’

    That’s how the party became watermelons.

  303. Independent Queensland MP Bob Katter does not look likely to support the baby bonus cut. He said he was “tenaciously opposed” to any cuts to the payment.
    “Those poor struggling little mothers, they can’t get men to shoulder their responsibilities,” he said.
    But fellow independent Tony Windsor said the baby bonus had been a badly designed policy from the start, arguing there were ”better” ways of helping parents.
    Mr Windsor – who along with other independents and the Greens was first briefed about the mid-year budget update last week – told ABC Radio he would now look at the detail of all the mid-year budget measures.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/labor-does-not-understand-cost-of-raising-children-abbott-20121023-2829d.html#ixzz2A4jIPrg8

    What is Katter trying to say?

  304. Tom R, of course you are spot on. Too many fathers that will not take responsibility for their baby. Demand it is adopted out, and flee the country, to spend some time at Oxford, where his major achievement appeared to be in the ring. As a slugger, , not known for his boxing skills.

  305. Mr. Hockey, yesterday, defending Mr. Abbott’s maternity scheme, said that firms now, that has generous schemes, which generally benefited the highest paid women, will be able to discontinue their scheme. In other words, Mr. Abbott intends to relieve the employers that now do the right thing, of their obligation, handing it over to the taxpayer.

    Why should the taxpayer be expected to take on this burden.

  306. Hockey ABC 24.

    Rant and rave.

    Has Hockey hasn’t noticed. All experts are saying surplus is not the best option.

  307. We start with, “Not only will there not be a cut in company tax. There is in fact a savage increase – the very opposite of what was promised.

    When pointed out that this is bullshit, we move to, “done any sums on what this will do to the cashflow of the businesses impacted by this little tweak have you?

    BRRRRRPP – sorry, incorrect answer. What you should have said was,Yes Bacchus, I was wrong – I was indeed bullshitting and purposely attempting to mislead. There is, in fact, no increase in company tax. I’m a right whinger, so that’s exactly what you’d expect from me…

  308. Bloody Hockey complaining of the costs of having 3 children close together!!!!!

    Well why do I have to support for people like him that earn a bloody lot more than me to get a “bonus” for having kids.
    There he goes again he is saying I had three children under 5, And his wife is a well paid banker for goodness sake.

    He keeps going on about how expensive it was for him with 3 kids, now we have him going on about the costs of car seats.

    He could buy 3 car seats every week and wouldn’t notice the cost.

  309. Sue, something else I have noticed among my children, especially the daughter who started late, much of that essential equipment circulates among friends. Very little is bought.

  310. One of Hockey’s gripe is spot on. With the new car seat regulations, there needs to be a redesigning of cars, to fit those seats. Two is the limit.

    I would also like to point out using public transport is now much easier, than our day.

    Happy families in SA Opposition.

  311. How not to mean what you say or in other words an Abbott apology

    “if she wants to take offence”

    He just doesn’t listen to himself , “she” , “and if she”

    “TONY Abbott has said sorry to Julia Gillard if she thinks he was referring to her lack of experience as a mother today.

    The Opposition Leader said people had read “far too much” into comments he made on morning television.

    “If she wants to take offence, of course I’m sorry about that. And if she would like me to say sorry, I’m sorry,” the Opposition Leader said on Melbourne radio.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/new-sexism-row-looming-after-abbotts-comments-on-governments-inexperience-with-kids/story-fndo2j43-1226501248569

  312. Is this another example of the monk shooting himself in the foot?”

    This is getting ridiculous. It is getting to the point where you cannot say anything about this useless govt without giving offense. The government is not just Gillard. It is also the people in the Cabinet and they would have been the ones who introduced the policy and lots of them have had kids. I think he was talking about the ALP inexperience in government.

    Bacchus- It is an increase in revenue from companies. While it is not a tax increase the government will be getting $8B more from companies. So it is a pseudo tax increase.

  313. I did not hear the PM say she takes offense.

    I heard the PM reply to a question, that Mr. Abbott needs to explain himself.

    Once more, the usual, putting words in her mouth and twisting of what the PM says.

    Yes, Sue, you are correct, what we women hear, is “she” “she” over and over.

    A clever man in this situation, would ensure that he said, the PM this, the PM that.

    The Abbott’s problem is that he does not believe he is doing anything wrong, he is being defiant in talking this way, challenging the PM and other Labor women to challenge him. This, the PM did not do.

    Abbott cannot work it out, when things do not turn out as he plans. Just as the PM has not laid down and died.

  314. So, the Government as a whole has a problem with children? :shock: One would have thought, in the aftermath of a mini budget, the problem might be with ‘payments’, not children per se.

    The libs have been dog whistling on a range of topics for years. The Government is finally holding them to account.

    Argue the finances, not the hysterics. Oh, that’s right, they can’t

    pseudo tax increase.

    See what I mean ;)

  315. CU
    Abbott has never seen Julia Gillard as PM, so he never uses the title without having to read it from a script.

    When he thinks on his feet, he owns his words.

    And you are right. The PM said to Sabre Lane that it was upto Abbott to explain his words. The PM didn’t ask for an apology, it was Sabre Lane who suggested that Abbott was being offensive.

    And the msm has now caught up to what the public has witnessed over the last 2 years.

  316. CU
    the msm has probably caught up because that morgan poll has Abbott as a loser , so there could be a story/ stories in the making.
    Leadership….challenge
    Leadership……tension
    Leadership…… speculation

    The usual, except the headline will include “Abbott”.

  317. Hockey reminds me of someone that has no idea what he is or should be doing. All over the place.

    Wonder when he will wake up, that the carnival has moved on, they have missed the train following it.

  318. Ha ha. Someone has pointed out that not long ago Hockey was talking about the need to end the sense of entitlement and to cut welfare payments in his response to finding the $50 billion in cuts if in government.

    Now he’s against cutting the Baby Bonus, a sense of entitlement engendered by Howard, continued by Labor and a middle class welfare payment.

    I guess the only thing that the opposition have a single position on is that Gillard is a she.

  319. We go through this screaming match every time the government announces budget cuts, but it seems more hysterical than usual this time.
    Manager of opposition business Christopher Pyne reckons it is “vicious and savage” for the government to give every family $3000 when they have a second or subsequent child, rather than the $5000 they get for their firstborn. We all know children are expensive and anyone would prefer five grand to three, but a $3000 cheque from the government is the kind of “vicious and savage” most people can live with.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/perspective-the-first-casualty-of-budget-backlash-20121023-282jr.html#ixzz2A5CCFKtl

    Yes, more hysterical indeed.

  320. What we have with Abbott now is the typical remorse of a bully who’s behaviour has gone too far.

    He can’t help being the sort of person he is but this is not the right stuff to lead this country.

  321. (It was apparently not “vicious and savage” when the Coalition voted against the Schoolkids Bonus – $410 for primary school students, $820 for high school students — on the grounds that it did not have to be spent on children; of course, the baby bonus does not have to be spent on children either.)

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/perspective-the-first-casualty-of-budget-backlash-20121023-282jr.html#ixzz2A5CakWGB

    Noticed the change in the media handling of the Opposition. Questions being asked.

  322. And former Liberal leader Brendan Nelson initially opposed the original baby bonus means test (because rich mums loved their babies too), but in the end the Coalition also gave up that fight.
    One reason for the previous decisions has been that the Coalition knows in government it will face the same structural budget problems that the government is facing now – and will have to consider equally difficult and unpopular savings measures.

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/perspective-the-first-casualty-of-budget-backlash-20121023-282jr.html#ixzz2A5DVOstJ

    Judge them by not what they say, but with what they do.

  323. Even that picture we have seen of him, meeting the Indonesian leader should scare most. The jaw struck out, the neck muscles tightened. An aggressive stance.

  324. Neil from Sydney wrote:

    “Bacchus- It is an increase in revenue from companies. While it is not a tax increase the government will be getting $8B more from companies. So it is a pseudo tax increase”

    Thanks Neil, sometimes folk with no business acumen just don’t get it and resort to name calling which only reinforces their lack of credibility… For starters consider the interest that would otherwise have been available to a company lumbered with paying a million dollar tax monthly instead of yearly.

    “This is getting ridiculous. It is getting to the point where you cannot say anything about this useless govt without giving offense. ”

    Agreed and here is a quote to reinforce that view:

    “YOU don’t have to be black to be a black, you don’t have to be poor to be
    poor, you don’t have to be a woman-hater to be a misogynist. You don’t even
    have to be without a roof over your head to be homeless.

    Such is the slide in meaning attached to these and many other, once
    bountiful, political campaigns that swarms of professionals have to be
    employed to keep the flames of outrage alive.

    And keep them alive they do: their careers depend on it. Equal employment
    opportunity officers, equal rights officers, professional busybodies and
    lobbyists throughout Australia are diligent at seeking out slight and insult
    or massaging group data to prove some organised evil within society……
    Class no longer begets poverty, race no longer begets prejudice and gender
    no longer begets discrimination. And yet there is an entire army of class,
    race and gender warriors who are prepared to reinforce these tired old
    responses, regardless of whether they are accurate.

    The Prime Minister Julia Gillard’s feted speech excoriated Opposition Leader
    Tony Abbott as a misogynist, and yet he may well lead a government that has
    Australia’s first female foreign minister in Julie Bishop. The speech was a
    prime example of a cultural warrior having recourse to a culture war long
    settled, but on which she and so many on the Left have built their careers.
    The fact is, Tony Abbott is at worst an old-fashioned conservative whose
    first instinct is to protect women, not hate them.”

  325. The PM continues to govern, The Opposition rush about like chooks with heads cut off, screaming, we are the only one that knows how hard it is to bring up a family.

    THE federal government will introduce a foreign ownership register for agricultural land, Prime Minister Julia Gillard has told farmers.
    The register will provide a more comprehensive picture of the specific size and locations of foreign agricultural landholdings.
    The prime minister’s announcement at the National Farmers Federation national congress in Canberra on Tuesday was applauded by delegates.
    The government shortly will release a paper to begin discussions with stakeholders including farmers, the states and territories about the design and content of the register.
    Ms Gillard said she wanted to take the politics out of foreign ownership.

    Read more: http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/national/govt-to-set-up-foreign-land-register/story-e6frfku9-1226501312760#ixzz2A5JZ7W8

    L

  326. “you don’t have to be a woman-hater to be a misogynist. ”

    Wrong, but if you insist on acting like one, you cannot blame others for saying you are.

    It is the behavior, at the end of the day, that is being condemned. Could start by replacing “she” and “her”, with “PM”, her title. Now that is not hard.

  327. See what I mean

    Pretty sneaky don’t you think?? Swan gets $8B more in revenue from companies but it is not a tax increase. He must spend most of his hours trying to find out ways to fleece more money from companies to pay for his wasteful and reckless spending.

    The libs have been dog whistling on a range of topics for years.

    Well I am not a dog so I have not heard the whistle. Perhaps you can tell me what the whistle sounds like??

  328. El gordo
    Looks like the red heart of the watermelons is beginning to decay….
    “The ACT Greens could be left with just one seat in the Legislative Assembly according to the latest prediction on the vote count after Saturday’s election.”

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/article/15182131/act-labor-now-tipped-to-win-eight-seats/

    For mine the Greens are in terminal decline Australia wide and the real political conundrum facing the Australian electorate is the choice between labor and the coalition. If form is any indication and I were a gambler, I’d be onto Tom Waterhouse today…

  329. @treetroll

    Class no longer begets poverty, race no longer begets prejudice and gender no longer begets discrimination.

    there are many who would (correctly) disagree with this fantasy -even a cursory acquaintance with reality shows otherwise.

  330. If Mr. Hockey believe he has found three children under five expensive, I feel for him when they reach 17 or under.

    Mr. Hockey will welcome the extension of the family benefits from where they cut out at 16 years, to when they turn 18 years. Yes, it will be welcome indeed.

    Mr. Hockey will appreciate the money this government has given to parents, to help them cope with school expenses.

    Mr. Hockey need not be afraid that he cannot spend it all, he will still find he has to dig into his problems. Mr. Hockey was so worried, that giving the money up front, would mean the parents would put it through the pokies.

    Why he does not see, the baby bonus could end up in the same place, escapes me. One does not really need a cot or stroller. A box will do.

    Yes, this PM has done much for families to help them rear their children.

  331. I forgot the most important one, the maternity allowance or what ever it is called, when they have that baby, to enable them to stay home for a few weeks.

  332. For starters consider the interest that would otherwise have been available to a company lumbered with paying a million dollar tax monthly instead of yearly.

    Completely different issue altogether and doesn’t change the fact that your original statement was deliberate bullshit, designed to mislead.

    It would appear trollman knows much less about business than he claims, OR he’s being deliberately misleading again – the change is from quarterly to monthly, not annual :roll:

    He may also like to consider that the interest paid by the business sector is $25 billion less than four years ago.

    What is it with the complete disconnect with truth and right whingers?

  333. — moves the Government six months closer to the magical surplus figure. Perhaps now Wayne Swan and Penny Wong can finally minimise their spreadsheets and turn their minds to the policy settings Labor will take to the next election.

    It’s an unfashionable thing to say these days, but the Government deserves considerable credit for the tough decisions made to deliver this surplus. This Labor government is a model of fiscal discipline. Whatever the Opposition and the hawkish commentators say, Labor’s fiscal management under Wayne Swan has been incredibly disciplined. There has been no blow-out in spending. Far from it: despite the charges levelled against it, this government has been very restrained.

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/10/23/whos-ready-raise-taxes

    My emphasis.

    The economy is not going backwards and is not the disaster that Hockey and Abbott want the perception to be.

    In fact, one could say, the economy is amazing, considering the effort that Abbott and Co have put into taking it down for over two years.

  334. I would not shed many tears for the extra work business will have to do, to pay tax monthly. If this worries them, maybe they could go back to playing provisional tax. A prospect I am sure they do not want.

    Business already have to prepare records on a monthly, even weekly basis for such things as GST and wages.

    It is not like the days, that one sit on a high stool, paused before big ledgers.

  335. Will Labor have the guts to now face the real problems out budgets faces. One started by Mr. Costello, his numerous tax cuts, and maybe the selling off of every asset he could find.

    I believe there is any way that Mr. Abbott and Co will address the problems, that are only going to get worse, as we move into the future.

    The Australian’s George Megalogenis also notes that the Government has a revenue problem. Federal tax revenue collapsed in the 2007-08 downturn, especially compared with earlier, more severe recession. “Paul Keating’s taxation system still yielded 22.2 per cent of GDP at the bottom of the last recessionary cycle when the unemployment rate was still above 10 per cent,” he points out. “The Swan and Costello regime collected its low of 21.6 per cent of GDP with unemployment at less than 6 per cent.”

    Why is out revenue so anaemic? The reason is that our tax system is now far more cyclical than it used to be. The Costello years saw personal income tax rates slashed, with expanding company taxes making up the difference. New taxes under Swan have also been directed towards the corporate sector, such as the carbon tax and the mining tax. But in an economic downturn, company profits evaporate and big losses can then be carried forward into future tax years. As a result, corporate tax revenues can take a long time to recover. Australia is going to have get used to very tight government spending in coming years. Big, transformative reforms like Gonski or the NDIS are going to be that much harder to deliver.

    Of course, it’s not all bad news. The weakening economy and the tight constraints on government spending have helped keep inflation low. This gives the Reserve Bank plenty of ammunition to keep cutting interest rates. The RBA has already cut interest rates quickly in recent months. Expect another quarter per cent rate cut, as early as Melbourne Cup day.

    Eventually, all that cheap money washing through the economy will make an impact. But just at the moment, it’s hard to see where. The government and many economists hope it will be in housing, where cheaper mortgages might just restart the sick home construction sector. But there’s not much evidence of that so far. If lower interest rates helped the Aussie dollar depreciate, that would certainly help exporters. But there’s no guarantee that will happen.

    What about the politics of the MYEFO? At present, it’s something of a stalemate. With his typical anti-charisma, Wayne Swan has again failed to make a case for the government’s superior credentials in economic management. Also typically, the opposition has done little but bluster in rebuttal.

    Wayne Swan and Penny Wong have done what they needed to do to keep the budget in the black — a boat on which Labor has foolishly staked much of its credibility. Really, they should be crowing about the result, which makes some of the doom-laden commentary from a year ago look rather silly. But voters and the media seem to be giving them few brownie points for all that hard work. The MYEFO is hardly a triumph for Labor. But in the current climate, an absence of disaster for the government is a type of victory in itself.

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/10/23/whos-ready-raise-taxes

  336. ‘Looks like the red heart of the watermelons is beginning to decay….’

    It had to happen, a conservation movement taken over by the remnant reds, here and elsewhere. Its a story that hasn’t really be told and if I knew that old red ragger …there might be a book in it.

    Was it just a safe haven in a sea of indifference, or did they still have hopes of realising their dreams through the conservation movement?

    In my mind they were successful beyond their wildest dreams, but a change in the weather should see all that tumbling down.

    ‘I’d be onto Tom Waterhouse today…’

    The odds are in favour of the Greens being routed.

  337. Labor’s fiscal management under Wayne Swan has been incredibly disciplined.

    What a deluded comment from a man obviously in love with the ALP. Maybe some facts will help. Deficits of -$30B, -$54B, -$52B and -$42B is fiscal discipline??

    Another 10 years of that and we will be in trouble. But do ALP supporters care??

    Another thing. I have been told that Costello paid off debt because of worldwide prosperity. But how many countries in Europe were getting out of debt from 1996-2007?? It appears that Howard/Costello were getting us out of debt while at the same time Europe was getting into debt. We have a lot to be thankful to Costello.

    And for those who say Costello ran surplus budgets because he was lucky it should be noted that Queensland ran up debt during the mining boom and lost its credit rating in 2008 and the boom took place in Queensland. Perhaps govt decisions played a part in this.

  338. el gordo, could it be, that the Green vote has reverted back to normal. The four they gained in the last election was a record for the Greens.

    Could just be.

    Does anyone know where the Green vote came from at the previous election. Is it just returning home.

    Figures always have to be taken in context.

  339. ‘…the Green vote has reverted back to normal.’

    Possibly, but they will have little part to play in any future government.

  340. Bacchus

    You miss the point, thinking an insignificant error is the be all and end all. Sure it’s monthly now compared to quarterly and mea culpa. However, the interest paid by the business sector is not what I meant at all, it’s the interest on their money they would have received had they not had to pay the tax sooner. There are courses available for you if you still don’t get it….

    Can you now see it’s a completely different issue altogether and doesn’t change the fact that your response was bullshit, designed to mislead? Note that last sentence did not include “deliberate” Left that out to give you the benefit of naivety!

    Neil

    ” it should be noted that Queensland ran up debt during the mining boom and lost its credit rating in 2008 and the boom took place in Queensland. Perhaps govt decisions played a part in this”

    They did indeed. Here are just a few for your interest:

    “After a virtually trouble-free second term (2001– 04), Beattie faced — from almost immediately after the 2004 poll — a litany of crises best described as controlled disasters. These included: ‘Winegate’ (the scandal over the carriage of a bottle of wine onto a ‘dry’ Aboriginal community and the hasty dismissal, then rehiring, of a scapegoated ministerial adviser); power outages caused by failing infrastructure amid accusations of Government asset stripping of energy providers Energex and Ergon; the suicide of Energex CEO Greg Maddock following allegations of corruption (a suicide performed near Beattie’s home); the resignation of other Energex CEOs on child sex and insider trading charges; riots on the disadvantaged Indigenous North Queensland community of Palm Island following the death in police custody of Cameron ‘Mulrunji’ Doomadgee; the resignation of Indigenous Affairs minister Liddy Clark (previously embroiled in ‘Winegate’ and now alleged to have lied about payment of Palm Island protestors’ airfares); the tardy removal of asbestos in schools; the unsafe macadamisation of Queensland roads; the resignation of Speaker Ray Hollis over allegations (later dismissed) of misusing entertainment expenses; the demotion, eventual sacking and disendorsement of Minister Gordon Nuttall for lying to a parliamentary committee (and the Government’s contentious amendment of the Criminal Code to allow Nuttall to face only parliamentary censure and not criminal charges); the lengthy absences of Gaven Labor MP Robert Poole who preferred medical treatment in Thailand to the Queensland health system; the shock retirement of Deputy Premier and Treasurer Terry ‘The Fox’ Mackenroth who, it was believed, served as a political ‘brake’ on Beattie’s excesses; and no fewer than six ministerial reshuffles (some only weeks apart).
    But even these dramas paled against perhaps the two greatest public policy failures in recent Queensland history. The first was the allegation raised in Parliament in mid- 2005 by Nationals MP Rob Messenger that overseas-trained surgeon Jayent Patel — quickly dubbed ‘Dr Death’ — had contributed to the death of numerous patients at Bundaberg Hospital in central Queensland. The complaints spawned three inquiries: Peter Forster’ s independent review of Queensland Health bureaucracy, an initial Royal Commission under Tony Morris (later closed down by the Supreme Court for ‘apprehended bias’ when it was found Morris had favoured witnesses), and a fresh Royal Commission (set up after public disquiet when Beattie suggested the matter was closed) under retired judge Geoff Davies. But the dust from Health had yet to settle when rapidly falling dam levels — amid the worst drought in southeast Queensland’s living memory — forced increasingly tight water restrictions. Labor and the Coalition (and State and Local Government) soon blamed each other for years of neglect of ‘infrastructure’ — the new political buzzword — as up to 1,500 interstate migrants continued to flood into greater Brisbane each week (Courier Mail 21 February, 2007). It was against this backdrop that the Beattie Government lost in by-elections the three safe seats of Redcliffe, Chatsworth and Gaven.

    And these are just the more significant government decisions that eventually delivered Qld labor the most resounding defeat ever. Be very careful what you applaud here folks, it might have bigger and sharper teeth that will rip your backside off let alone bite it!

  341. Obama raised the prospect of the jobs that will be created in the clean energy future, while they were talking about China.

  342. Yeah, watched it all and yes it was most interesting to see the difference between the two perspectives on China. For mine, Romney had a better handle on what counts, but I’m biased…

  343. CU
    The result will not be known to Saturday evening. The liberal Seselja claimed vistory far too early, he should know better.
    The Hare- Clark system is very difficult to predict. Greens did well in 2008 because of school closures. The Greens by Saturday could have 3, 2 or 1 seats, it just depends on their actual first preference vote numbers before distribution occurs.
    Libs could have 7 or 8 seats, Labor 7, 8 or 9.

    What the main problem for the Greens this election is that Labor candidates are getting a pretty even distribution of votes, so that means more labor candidates in the running to not be eliminated.

  344. CU, on Obama’s jobs that will be created in the clean energy future, it will be interesting to read the transcript to see what he meant. Jobs in China are static in that sector, in part as a result of overproduction of PV’s and a better global understanding of the unreliability of wind but compounded by the environmental issues related to extraction of neodymium. Further, the US has imposts on Chinese PV modules which have flattened the market. The US has recently seen several PV collapses, notably Solyndra, Brightsource, LSP Energy, Energy Conversion Services, Abound Solar, Sunpower, Beacon Power, A123, and Evergreen. The list is bigger than that so it’s difficult to imagine how Obama can deliver clean energy jobs in the US unless he left off the “er” and meant cleaner energy and gas. Mind you “er’s get left off and added all the time. Emma Alberici added one with a k on lateline last night when she couldn’t interrupt out Joe Hockey. Bet you won’t see in the transcript!

  345. You miss the point, thinking an insignificant error is the be all and end all.

    IF the error was in fact insignificant, the change from quarterly to monthly is surely even less significant :P

    However, the interest paid by the business sector is not what I meant at all

    I am well aware of what you meant – you were merely introducing something new to deflect from your original bullshit “error.”

    It’s the interest on their our money they would have received had they not had to pay the tax sooner. Perhaps they should pay their tax weekly or fortnightly like the rest of the PAYE population, or as CU suggested earlier, go back to paying provisional tax?

    And the fact remains, business is $25 billion better off than four years ago when it comes to the amount they have to pay in interest on their loans. You can’t whinge about one side of the coin without considering the other :roll:

    There are courses available for you if you still don’t get it….

  346. Sue, I agree with you. Both Abbott and him were claimed on the weekend, as it was 8 to 7, with the Greens two, they should govern..

    Tree, maybe he meant what can be built in the USA for the USA.

    Obama is big on being self sufficient when it comes to energy. There are still very active demands for man made climate to be addressed.

    Much so far, has been on a state level.

    One source of interest,I would like to see the bosses lose access to, is leave entitlements held on the part of the workers. Many see this as their money. It is not. It belongs to the employee, It is money already earned.

  347. Pretty sneaky don’t you think?? Swan gets $8B more in revenue from companies but it is not a tax increase.

    Guess you don’t get the title as World’s Greatest Treasurer for nothing ;)

    Perhaps you can tell me what the whistle sounds like??

    Better, I can show you ;)

    Julia Gillard clearly was not impressed and replied on ABC radio, “Well I think Mr Abbott can explain what he meant by that line.”

    Instead of explaining it, he just assumed that he had given offence

    “If she wants to take offence, of course I’m sorry about that. And if she would like me to say sorry, I’m sorry,” the Opposition Leader said on Melbourne radio.

    http://www.news.com.au/national/new-sexism-row-looming-after-abbotts-comments-on-governments-inexperience-with-kids/story-fndo4eg9-1226501248569

    Gillard whistled, and he obliged. Instead of reminding us of his misogynistic habits, he instead reminded us of them.

    And the whole world got to watch ROFL

    Julia Gillard’s ‘misogynist’ rival in new sexism row over baby remark

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/23/julia-gillard-misogynist-sexism-baby

  348. “I am well aware of what you meant – you were merely introducing something new to deflect from your original bullshit “error.”

    That’s what I meant originally!

    “And the fact remains, business is $25 billion better off than four years ago when it comes to the amount they have to pay in interest on their loans. You can’t whinge about one side of the coin without considering the other”

    WTF has this got to do with any of the debate? Where did you get the figure from and did you take into account off shore loans at lower interest rates? The figure is a contrivance to assist those who deceive. The businesses impacted by this deceptive manipulation of revenue streams don’t fit into narrow narratives like yours!

  349. “Tree, maybe he meant what can be built in the USA for the USA. Obama is big on being self sufficient when it comes to energy. There are still very active demands for man made climate to be addressed.”

    That’s a big maybe CU but agree the self sufficiency push, US does not need to import fuel and Obama has back-pedalled on an earlier policy in that respect.

    As for “active demands for climate change to be addressed” If so the US will never compete, even on a level playing field for PV production and Obama knows that, hence the aversion to even raising the issue. Other so called sustainable energy initiatives have mostly failed and we don’t need to go past the chevy volt to elaborate.

  350. Ladies and gentlemen, this election is a rejection of Labor. It is also a rejection of the Greens. Most importantly, it is a rejection of their alliance. Ah, having rejected this alliance ladies and gentlemen, it would be a rejection of the verdict of the people if the Labor party and the Greens were to now forge a closer alliance.

    Ladies and gentlemen can I say what a great honour it is to be elected to represent the people of Brindabella. I have lived in Tuggeranong all of my life; I am a proud product of the Tuggeranong Valley, ah, and I look forward to the opportunity to become the first Tuggeranong resident to be Chief Minister of the ACT.

    I said during this campaign ah that we are ready and ah ladies and gentlemen, tonight I say to you again, and I say to the people of Canberra, we thank you for the honour you have bestowed on us in this wonderful result tonight. We thank you for your endorsement of the polices and the plans that we have put forward. Tonight I say to you again, ah that we are ready to govern, that we are ready to serve our community, and that we are ready to deliver the kind of government that the ACT deserves.

    Strangely, many, including the very experienced Antony Green, interpreted these words from Zed Seselja on Saturday night as “claiming victory.”

    A couple of minor details though:
    – Labor increased their vote in this election.
    – Labor obtained a higher primary vote than the Liberals

    As Troy Bramston said in the Australian:

    The Liberals’ poor performance should be a concern for the federal party. They faced an 11-year-old Labor government at a time when Labor trails the Coalition everywhere else in the nation. They should have won in a cakewalk. The result exposes the risk in Abbott’s aggressive, negative and largely policy-free bid for the prime ministership.

  351. Of course Bacchus the poor performance of the Liberals in the other states wouldn’t have helped.

    Lex Luther strikes again

    The Liberals via Hockey caught out lying yet again. Of course this will be ignored by the wingnuts who only ever see lies in Labor telling the truth and truths in the Liberals continuously lying. I guess the Liberals prevaricate so hugely and often it becomes common place so the wingnuts think they are telling the truth.

    The government is doing a great thing in taking over unclaimed super and it’s a policy that especially helps low income earners, so naturally it must be squashed by the Liberals. Can’t have the great unwashed helped in anyway especially by allowing the to keep their own money and stop it going free to the wealthy commercial funds for nix.

  352. That’s what I meant originally!

    Not only will there not be a cut in company tax. There is in fact a savage increase – the very opposite of what was promised.

    And there for all to see, is a bare-faced LIE from the trollman ;)

    btw, the $25 billion figure comes from Business Spectator.

  353. el gordo does it again and gets it spectacularly wrong.

    Watts won’t even touch that one with a barge pole, yep that’s the Watts who el gordo thinks is the greatest walking climate genius on the planet.

    And there if el gordo bothered to read that far is a comment from Tom Harrison who blows it all away.

    Another el gordo FAIL.

  354. ‘So, what we have is both experimental data and real world commercial application data that demonstrates IR radiation does not heat air. Why? Because it has been known since the 19th century that gases that absorb IR radiation also emit IR radiation.’

    John O’Sullivan

    Do you have that Tom Harrison link?

  355. He and the couple who post responses after him are in the source you gave. Do you only ever read what confirms you bias and ditch the rest, not even bothering to read the entire thing, links. sources, cites and responses?

    You do yourself no favours by going around picking things that you fall across that at first glance seem to support your narrow and flawed view on climate change. If you do that at least you can read the entire thing, get the context and chase up anything that goes against the piece or at least search to see if there’s rebuttals and science around that shows why the argument is flawed, as it is in this case.

    If, and it’s a huge if, you find something that has no rebuttals and the science stacks up after you have researched it as much as you can then is the time to post it and the reasons you believe it stacks up.

    Getting fairly tired of you posting links to articles, in the rare times you do post sources and links instead of one or two paragraph trolls of nonsense, only to find out they rarely purport to state what you say they do or rarer still stack up to even superficial scrutiny.

  356. Ah…yes. Colliding atoms and energy conversion, Harrison knows his physics. I don’t believe the small fraction of CO2 we produce can make any conceivable difference.

  357. I don’t believe the small fraction of CO2 we produce can make any conceivable difference.

    Who cares? Scientists with degrees and the evidence to support their opinions do, that’s what I care about, and what will influence my thinking

  358. Where are the women in the Liberal Party?

    Very interesting. It seems that Abbott may also be sexist towards women on his own team, even if it’s just by omission and not promoting any.

    Can imagine an Abbott government. Nearly all men with the minimum amount of women in minor positions to trot out along with his wife and daughters when the polls amongst female voters becomes unfavourable, then it’s back to the kitchen and ironing board at parliament house for them.

  359. You see there goes el gordo again. Found the term post normal science and bingo, let’s use it to make it seem I know what I’m talking about, shhh when I really don’t. It’s also handy to throw back at people who use facts and science back at my bullshit.

    But post normal science doesn’t really mean what el gordo thinks it does, or not in the context el gordo think it’s exclusively used.

    Post normal science can just as easily be used to assist in the explanation of AGW, and it’s being promoted by anthropogenic climate change proponents to some governments like the UK. In other words post normal science is not exclusively the domain of the opponents as el gordo thinks it is.

    Having said that very few mainstream scientists advocate post normal science even those who agree with the two scientists who came up with it. It has only gained some attention because of it being mentioned in The Guardian, which is probably where el gordo picked it up or from one of the paid for by oil denier sites oft used as supposed credible sources who got it from The Guardian.

  360. Tom R @ 5.59

    And now the whole world gets to laugh..

    Great what a ripper, the guardian article even has the video of Abbott.
    What an absolute goose he is, if he had half a brain it would be lonely.

  361. Guess you don’t get the title as World’s Greatest Treasurer for nothing

    My opinion of the ALP is that it is the party of the unforeseen stuffup. Changing tax collections to monthly will cause hardship to someone. Swan does not care. Apparently $5.5B of the expected $8B comes in one year. The year he hopes to produce his first surplus budget.

    And all this crap about how Abbott hates women is just a political ploy by the ALP. Obviously some focus group has reported that attacking Abbot in this way may win some votes. The fact that it is a pack of lies does not worry the ALP or its supporters.

  362. ” Changing tax collections to monthly will cause hardship to someone. ”

    FFS I hope you shouted that at Howard and Costello when they introduced the GST. That was and is such a costly exercise for small business, charities etc. All the bloody paperwork, training, computer programs. And it was supposed to stop the “black”economy, what utter bs, it has exploded. And now the states know they were sold a pup, as GST revenues fall.

  363. What we have with Abbott now is the typical remorse of a bully who’s behaviour has gone too far.

    He can’t help being the sort of person he is but this is not the right stuff to lead this country.

    The trolls here think that bully Abbott is just fine. What does that say about them?

  364. Here are a few quotes to balance the book.

    Some folk felt diminished and degraded when Gillard’s vituperative “misogyny” speech was over. Abbott showed great strength of character to sit through it as Gillard as she delivered her hate-filled diatribe.

    Truth never matters to demagogues. For example, Gillard accused Abbott of saying that abortion was “the easy way out”, but this is what Abbott actually said:

    To a pregnant 14 year old struggling to grasp what’s happening, for example, a senior student with a whole life mapped out or a mother already failing to cope under difficult circumstances, abortion is the easy way out. It’s hardly surprising that people should choose the most convenient exit from awkward situations”

    Inexplicably, some people found inspiration in dross.

    Meanwhile Labor bangs on, taking offence at every opportunity while it shuffles the numbers to give the impression of good financial stewardship.

    Making Abbott out to be a bully and shuffling numbers around will have only one consequence for Labor in the end and it won’t be pretty!

  365. Here are a couple more for good measure:

    To accuse Tony Abbott of being a misogynist, a hater of women, is as irresponsible as one can get. It is a charge without truth and an insult to Abbott’s wife, Margaret, and his daughters. But clearly our Prime Minister has no respect for the truth or the office she holds. Life is all about Julia, her interests, her desire to survive.
    Her hatred of Tony Abbott is palpable. It overrides her role as Prime Minister.

    Julia Gillard is insulting and demeaning the high office she holds.
    No prime minister of Australia has demonstrated, through the choices they have made, to have been so unsuitable.

  366. As the world gets a glimpse of Tony Abbott, back home he still a problem for his supporters.
    Michelle Grattan has attempted to tidy up Abbott’s radio apology by slipping in the PM’s name for Abbott’s favorite title “she”

    If Ms Gillard ”wants to take offence, of course I’m sorry about that, and if she would like me to say sorry, I’m sorry”, he said.
    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/abbott-gives-birth-to-another-faux-pas-20121023-283k4.html#ixzz2A9d5m5Dx

    Meanwhile as reported in WA, Liberals are worried the next election will be about Abbott and not policy…. Well they’re worried about that now !!!!
    No guesses why

    “Libs fear ‘referendum’ on Abbott
    Liberal MPs say Tony Abbott is in danger of making the next election a referendum about him unless he stops taking Labor’s bait and indulging in personal politics”

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/15193675/libs-fear-referendum-on-abbott/

  367. Meanwhile, some retail reality:
    Myer chief executive Bernie Brookes yesterday said the move (to monthly tax payments) slated from July 1, 2014, would cost his company about a $1 million a year in extra interest costs. “The government’s job is to ensure that they have got fiscal responsibility, and that fiscal responsibility includes firstly ensuring they have looked at all areas of costs and reduced them,” he said.

    Woolworths chief executive Grant O’Brien said the federal government should not be “constantly coming back to business to balance shortfalls in the budget”.
    He said the new demand for companies to pay their tax on a monthly basis would be an added burden on business, both in terms of cashflow and administration costs.
    “We will have to make allowances for the cashflow that has now changed as a result of what the Treasurer has announced,” he told a lunch hosted by the Australian Institute of Company Directors in Sydney yesterday.
    “It is more burden from an administrative and a cost point of view.”
    He said the government should not be “shackling business” with new obligations.
    “The growth of this country, and the environment which is going to be most favourable for long-term prosperity, is for businesses to be doing well,” he said.

    “It’s really damaging the investment climate and that does concern us,” said Jerry Maycock, chairman of energy company AGL after the company’s annual meeting yesterday. He said he struggled to see what was being achieved through the move, announced in the mid-year economic review, adding that it was another illustration of the rules continuing to change around the industry.
    “Fundamentally, our concern is there are so many changes and so many contradictory signals, apparently missing any public policy objective, on the way through.” And he too warned of a change in cashflows for companies.
    “It’s just a value transfer from large corporations to the government and it is hard to see what is being achieved through that move,” he said. “It’s another illustration of the rules continuing to change around the industry.”
    “When you add it to the regulatory issues, the whole process of introducing the carbon tax and the debate about the renewable energy target, it makes it hard for investors to be sanguine about the climate for investing in Australia.”

    Aussie Home Loans chairman John Symond said the move was an effort to make the budget bottom line appear healthier than it was. “It’s just a shuffling of the deck chairs,” he said. “This is not going to increase revenue, it is just pressuring businesses to basically pre-pay their tax. All it is doing is bringing forward the payments. The whole philosophy of this is wrong.”

  368. Oh dear…division in the ranks…
    Union split by secret polling for Rudd

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/union-split-by-secret-polling-for-rudd-20121023-283iv.html#ixzz2A9Ucr917

    “The polling calculated the impact of a return by Mr Rudd in four marginal electorates held by strong Gillard supporters – Blair and Moreton in Queensland, Greenway in NSW and Deakin in Victoria.
    It found Mr Rudd would boost Labor’s primary vote by 11 per cent, by as much as 18 per cent in some electorates, by 17 per cent among swinging voters, by 13 per cent among men and by 9 per cent among women.
    But it appears to have left the marginal seatholders unmoved”

    Perhaps a certain shout ‘rond the world is coming home to roost!

  369. Treeman

    Ever wonder why the newspapers haven’t picked up on the Morgan poll
    ALP 55.5% LNP 49.5%

    While that story of the poll you highlight this morning, the union poll was in the news either last week or the week before. So the rerun of a story that favours Rudd just may have something to do with the launch of McKew’s book and just by coincidence a “scoop” / promotion in Fairfax this weekend.

    Still some people are suckered in so easily.

  370. No place in your thinking for post normal science then?

    There is a place in my thinking for all sorts of things. Don’t try to pretend that the garbage you regurgitate for big oil has an resemblance to science though, post or not. It is pure propaganda, nothing more. I have no room in my thinking for propaganda.

  371. I suspect they haven’t picked up on Morgan because last time they did he turned out to be wrong!
    In context, the Australian ran a story three days ago on the Galaxy Poll with no details about the union involved and a lot of info on other polls….

    Facts Sue…facts before you fire!

  372. “no room in my thinking for propaganda.” none here either!

    Really?

    “Not only will there not be a cut in company tax. There is in fact a savage increase – the very opposite of what was promised.”
    :shock: :lol:

  373. “no room in my thinking for propaganda.”

    The Australian and British brainwashing corporations have been doing a good job of it.

  374. The Australian and British brainwashing corporations have been doing a good job of it.

    Luckily, the British chapter is closing down, murdochs hold is slipping over there.

    Just a matter of time before the same happens here ;)

  375. Just watching the police raid on Craig Thomson’s home on Ch 9. As the detective walked past the camera, he made a show of a parcel he was carrying. This was a politically motivated raid, done for the benefit of the Liberal party. Watch as Abetz, Pine or Abbott try to make hay out of the raid.

  376. Tree, Mr. Abbott is a bully, always has been a bully. His greatest role in politics has always been that of a head kicker, which in the past he has been very proud of.

    If I was a woman, sitting across from that shadow ministry that spends a hour and half every day, calling me a liar, slag, slag bag, harridan, witch, bitch and Brown’s etc., I do not believe I would have any love for the man.

    Yes, Sue, I believe I would feel the same way.

    Remember, Mr. Thomson has still not been charged by any police in any criminal matters. This morning visit from the police was on behalf o the Victorian police and their inquiries into the Nation Branch of the HSU.

    Abbott now on. Complaining about cuts.
    Joined by Pyne.

  377. Abbott, he has not been arrested, has not been charged, Then what has changed.

    What’s new would the PM have to add to the Thomson matter at this time.

    It is the question of who would take whatever it takes, to protect one’s self. Mr. Abbott’s sounds desperate, using everything he can get his hands on.

    Still she her, no PM title mention.

    Back on apologizing.

    Media now using Ms. Gillard. What is wrong with PM Gillard, the correct label.

    Questions getting hard. Must be time for him to take a walk.

  378. ‘Just a matter of time before the same happens here’

    The Oz Murdocracy is safe, but I can’t say the same thing about aunty. The old girl needs a thorough purge.

  379. Craig Thomson’s wife drove over some camera equipment the media had left on the road for some reason. They weren’t sure whether she did it deliberately or not. Too bad they didn’t say whether the media had left the equipment on the road deliberately or not.

  380. If I was a woman, sitting across from that shadow ministry that spends a hour and half every day, calling me a liar, slag, slag bag, harridan, witch, bitch and Brown’s etc.,”

    Has anyone from the shadow ministry said these things??

  381. The ALP is constantly insulting Abbott. He obviously gets under their skin but i do not think he behaves the way the ALP says

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/comments-directed-at-tony-abbott-20121014-27lcd.html?rand=1350215025482

    3. “In your guts you know he’s nuts…” – Albanese, Hansard, February 9, the same phrase repeated on February 13, February 16, February 29 and June 25.

    12. “He is Gina Rinehart’s butler” – Gillard, Hansard, May 28.

    13. “Tony Abbott is… a dog of a candidate” – Richard Marles, Labor MP, interview, May 29.

    14. “Abbott is a Neanderthal” – Rob Mitchell, Labor MP, on Twitter, May 29.

    16. “Tony Abbott: Note to ladies: Make me a sandwich” – poster on the wall of the office of Labor minister Tanya Plibersek.

    17. “Tony Abbott: I’m threatened by boats and gays. Gays on boats are my worst nightmare” – poster on the wall of the office of Plibersek.

    22. “Like Jack the Ripper, he is going to be there wielding his knife…,” Gillard, Hansard, August 20.

  382. Watch as Abetz, Pine or Abbott try to make hay out of the raid.

    Bullseye! Tony Abbott exploits the police raid for political advantage, accusing the Labor government of not looking after the interests of low-paid workers.

  383. That’s one thing I can say about you el gordo. You don’t fall for propaganda. But you also ignore factual evidence on other matters. ;-)0

  384. Solid evidence is hard to find in the atmospheric science debate. As you are aware there has been much talk over the past couple of decades that humanity is responsible for global warming.

    This is not the case, as evidenced by the flat temperatures of recent times, its only a matter of time before the penny drops.

  385. Yes Neil, , those things are said every day, mostly from Pyne and Mirabella. They leave the purring and the cat claw action to the younger Ms. Bishop. Abbott, himself seems to stick to liar and you are a nice one, or similar statements.

    This is only the lower house, to hear the real experts, one needs to take time to listen to the upper house, and the continuous attacks on Senator Wong.

  386. Myer chief executive Bernie Brookes yesterday said the move (to monthly tax payments) slated from July 1, 2014, would cost his company about a $1 million a year in extra interest costs.

    Sounds a lot – that’s a big number to ordinary folk. Fair enough – that’s Bernie’s spin; He’s doing his job. Let’s put the numbers into context though…
    For Myer, $1,000,000 is:
    * 0.032% of Sales
    * 0.39% of EBIT
    * 0.64% of profit after tax

    Myer is paying about $11.8 million less interest on borrowings pa now than four years ago, assuming the same level of debt.

    Interesting when you add context to the spin, isn’t it?

  387. Maybe Craig’s wife was too focused on her toddlers.

    Does one wonder why the media are informed of every police action in this case.

    Why are they informed of ongoing police action.

    Last week we had information that Thomson would soon be charged, from people close to the issue. Funny these people seemed to be connected it Radwick Hospital, in eastern Sydney, the base of Ms. Jackson.

    Surely there would be no police with the name of Lawler, connected to this investigation. Just a cynic

    Is it healthy for members of parliament to have such close ci\onnections to ongoing police investigations, especially where they have much to gain.

    What happened to separation of powers.

    Yes, there are many questions to be asked. Not the ones I suggest the Opposition want raised.

  388. Mr Abbott is alleging that my client has committed criminal wrongdoing. If Mr Abbott has evidence of that, he should come before come forward forthwith or he should shut his mouth.

    We will not tolerate our client being condemned by innuendo or um, ahh, aging student politicians mouthing off. This is unacceptable conduct. Our client is an innocent man

    :lol: :lol:

  389. “Luckily, the British chapter is closing down, murdochs hold is slipping over there”

    Hhahaha el gordo meant the BBC and you missed that completely

    “Treeman defends Abbott’s stand on abortion… I wonder whether this is because Treeman is a catholic.”

    No but I’ve got a few Labor mates who are!

  390. Mr Abbott is alleging that my client has committed criminal wrongdoing. If Mr Abbott has evidence of that, he should come before come forward forthwith or he should shut his mouth.
    “I think I heard remarks made by Mr Abbott”….says it all really!

    Here is what Abbott really said:

    Opposition Leader Tony Abbott has urged independent federal MP Craig Thomson to co-operate fully with police after a raid on his NSW home.

    Mr Abbott also praised police for their work in the case.

    ‘I think it’s very important this member of parliament fully co-operates with police,’ Mr Abbott told reporters in Adelaide on Wednesday.

    ‘The police have shown a lot of diligence in trying to ensure that low paid workers’ money is not misused.’

    Mr Abbott said he wished the same diligence in the Craig Thomson affair had been shown by the federal government.

    ‘Lets not forget it was the prime minister who was saying for months and years that she had full confidence in Craig Thomson,’ he said.

    His comments followed the raid on Wednesday morning on Mr Thomson’s home on the NSW central coast.

    http://www.skynews.com.au/politics/article.aspx?id=808995

  391. Bacchus, wow, that’s a strong interview from Chris McCardle. And I’d love to know who is being sued for defamation.

  392. Bacchus, in full agreement with that interview. Our system of democracy, demands separation power. Without that, we have a dictatorship.

    15 police. That sounds a little heavy handed.

    A long time getting evidence on signature.

    Wonder who has been sued.

  393. Yep – lots of questions raised – no answers forthcoming.

    Abbott, Pyne and Erica suggesting that the vote of Craig Thomson is in some way “tainted” and shouldn’t be accepted by the government is akin to saying he’s guilty of all the innuendo that’s ever been hurled in his direction.

    He has not been charged with anything at this time, let alone been found guilty. Until such time as he becomes ineligible to sit in the house, as defined in the constitution, he MUST sit in the house and represent his electorate as he was elected to do. To assert otherwise is to assume he’s guilty – that’s not acceptable under the doctrine of separation of powers.

  394. It would be unconstitutional to disallow Mr. Thomson’s vote.

    The mandate that allows Mr. Thomson to cast a vote is given to him by those who voted for him, in his electorate.

    That electorate has right to have a vote cast on their behalf.

    The vote does not belong to Labor or anyone else.

    Same goes for Slipper.

    Mr. Thomson has not been convicted of and sentenced for any criminal offenses that barred from him as acting an MP for his electorate, on behalf of the people he represents.

    He is innocent until proven guilty. That is true for the FWA matter’s as well.

    Why are things now harder for Labor. Nothing has changed today.

    Taking a signature, suggests that this visit might even clear him.

  395. Mr. Abbott very quick to respond to react, all the way from Western Australia. One could say, too quick.

    Sydney media got there before local.

    It is a two hour trip, twenty minutes away for local to arrive.

  396. Someone tipped off the Sydney media well in advance, its newsworthy and the msm have their moles among the police.

    The big issue is the corrupt nature of the union movement. they are so much a part of Labor its almost certain an incoming Abbott government will have a Royal Commission into their doings.

    Looking ahead we can see the Conservatives in power for a generation.

  397. Someone tipped off the Sydney media well in advance, its newsworthy and the msm have their moles among the police.

    interesting that the NSW police have stated

    “It is not our policy to alert media to such activity and no officer from NSW was authorised to do so.”

    here.

    So who tipped off the media ? This raises interesting questions, considering the manner in which the murdoch media obtained such information, in the UK.

  398. el gordo, sadly there will be no inquiry by the new government, that is if it is a Caolition one. They will want to see this die as quickly as possible. Cannot risk their interference with the legal system in this country to be revealed.

    Sorry, Neil and el gordo.

    Also the period that they are investigating, occurred, I believe from 2002 to 2007. During a Howard government, I believe.

  399. It appears, as Australians, we can still be proud. That is in spite of the deniers.

    Australia is not in ‘a lonely desert’ as the only nation reducing greenhouse gas emissions, but is an emerging leader in the field, a key United Nations climate change official says.

    Christiana Figeures, the executive secretary of the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change, said there was a misconception among many Australians that their nation was acting alone in combating the problem.

    ‘Nothing could be further from reality,’ she said in a speech at the Lowy Institute for International Policy in Sydney on Wednesday.

    ‘Every one of Australia’s top trading partners has something already in place.’

    Ms Figeures said China had pilot emissions schemes in place in seven large cities which would go national in five years time and it was already number one in the world in renewable energy.

    She said the United States had pledged to have a 17 per cent reduction in emissions below 2005 levels by 2020 and that was buttressed by regulations imposed on the power and transport sectors.

    The European Union had 40 per cent of their emissions covered by a carbon trading scheme, South Korea was becoming a leader in green growth and India, Singapore and other countries had set impressive reduction targets, Ms Figeures said.

    ‘Australia is not alone in acting on climate change … in fact Australia is a major player and an emerging leader.’

    She challenged Australia to sign up to the second phase of the Kyoto Protocol on climate change, saying it was in the country’s national interest to do so.

    Australia was vulnerable to climate change and to mitigate the problem globally it needed to join other countries that were aggressively working on the problem, she said.

    All nations that were acting on the problem were not doing so to save the planet, Ms Figeures said, but to better their own interests in energy security and trade.

    She said nations wanted to be competitive in ‘the low-carbon economy that’s coming down the pipe’.

    In acting in their own national interests, nations were opening political space for a global agreement on climate change, Ms Figeures said.

    Australia was a country ‘blessed with renewable energy capacity’ and had a great opportunity to be a model for both industrialised and developing countries as to how to a harness such energy, she said.

    ‘The world is looking very closely to see how Australia progresses with its clean energy policy.’

    Ms Figeures said if climate change was allowed to go on unchecked it could wipe out all the development that had taken place over the past 25 years.

    ‘There’s no plan B because we don’t have a planet B,’ she said…..

    http://www.skynews.com.au/national/article.aspx?id=809085

  400. ‘So who tipped off the media ?’
    “no officer from NSW was authorised to do so.”

    A mole or two without the authority, its a large organisation.

  401. How much evidence would one have about your home after five years. Especially as you no longer anything to do with your previous life.

    What would one find in an electoral office, that did not exist at that time. They seem to be carrying out many unused paper bags. Wonder what they put in what looks like Eskies. Surely they leave the fridges alone.

    Were there eight police or fifteen as some say.

  402. Cu -you said

    Cannot risk their interference with the legal system in this country to be revealed.”

    It looks like the media was informed there would be a raid but no evidence of any influence by the Liberal party. Any evidence for your statement?? I would find it hard to believe since close to half the country votes for the ALP and any interference would be found out.

    Also you stated

    If I was a woman, sitting across from that shadow ministry that spends a hour and half every day, calling me a liar, slag, slag bag, harridan, witch, bitch and Brown’s etc., I do not believe I would have any love for the man.”

    Can you give me a link where Coalition MP’s have said these things??

  403. I seem to remember an inquiry into the bottom of the har5bour, and the builders laborers. Caught many more bosses than workers.

    Not that I believe it would in this case.

    Yes, I believe there should be a Royal Commission at least into the HSU since at least 2000. There is much there that is not right.

  404. I would like to see a Royal Commission look into corrupt union practice across the board…depends on the terms of reference.

  405. I’d like to see a Royal Commission into the HSU as well as the AWB. The only problem is that Royal Commissions cost money.

    The UK phone hacking enquiry was instructive – it’s a reasonable bet that the two Commissions I have suggested would be equally interesting to watch. Hopefully Gillard will get a majority next term and feel its time to air the dirty laundry.

  406. Update for ACT election and the reason why declaring victory before final distribution is unwise.
    last night the vote looked 8 lib 7 labor 2 green
    tonight the vote would be 8 lib 8 labor 1 green

  407. I would like to see a Royal Commission into Howard’s involvement in the illegal Iraq war and the lives that cost all based on lies and deceits.

    Much more relevant and important than anything into unions or corrupt big business practices, which are often worse.

  408. Well has the potential to keep Abbott in the news next year

    “BARBARA RAMJAN, the woman who accused Tony Abbott of intimidating her physically at Sydney University, is suing the Victorian Liberal Party powerbroker, Michael Kroger, and The Australian newspaper, over comments during the recent fallout from the saga.

    The defamation action, lodged in the NSW Supreme Court on Monday, has the potential to reopen the debate over the alleged wall-punching incident

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/abbott-accuser-to-sue-liberal-party-powerbroker-20121024-285xc.html#ixzz2ADPK1ked

  409. Victorian police are not happy about the media turning up. Siad it puts police at risk.

    Channell TEN news tonight said there is danger for the Op[polsition in their comments on the Thomson investigation.

    Ten said that Abbott might just be going to far.

  410. “I think the most important message is that we all have a responsibility to be active participants in the media. There is much that we cannot change about the words and images that inundate us every day, but there are many things we can—and should—challenge”

    http://www.catalyst.org/blog/page/2

  411. Oh dear…
    Julia Gillard baulked at ETS ‘poison’ in climate showdown with Kevin Rudd..

    JULIA Gillard warned Kevin Rudd in writing that under no circumstances would she support taking an emissions trading scheme, which insiders say she thought had become electoral poison, to the 2010 election.

    In Tales from the Political Trenches, former Labor MP Maxine McKew says Ms Gillard met Mr Rudd at Kirribilli House, where the then deputy prime minister cited Nationals senator Barnaby Joyce’s campaign against the ETS, which the prime minister then dumped in April 2010.

    “On one occasion, she sent a written message to Rudd that went to the absolutism of her position: she would have nothing to do with an election campaign that re-argued the case for an ETS,” McKew writes in the book to be released next week.

    And …

    Julia Gillard told her tax plan is unworkable…
    THE Gillard government’s economic reform credentials have suffered another hammering after its business taxation review was dumped amid an industry revolt over plans to slash tax breaks to fund a corporate tax cut.

    The business tax working group declared late yesterday in its draft final report that it could not find a way to recommend a revenue-neutral company tax cut as requested by Julia Gillard.

    The shock revelation after 5pm by the BTWG that it could not recommend a way to finance the cut by slashing billions of dollars in tax breaks, came as corporate Australia is already reeling from the government’s move in the mid-year budget update on Monday to raise $8.3 billion by forcing businesses to pay tax earlier.

    Last night, the opposition seized on the development to declare Labor’s tax reform process was in chaos, while business leaders said they were disappointed that an opportunity had been missed to secure a cut to the headline comp
    any tax rate that would have reaped significant benefits for Australia’s economy.

    Not exactly a good look is it?

  412. Abbott has said that Thomson doesn’t deserve the presumption of innocence and his vote is tainted.

    They are now chasing up what he said when the two Liberals Laming and Vasta had their homes raided last term and the double standard along with throwing out the presumption of innocence for purely political purposes will come to bite Abbott hard.

  413. I’m glad the news this morning is blaming the failure of the government enquiry into business tax reform being able to come up with a way of funding it at the feet of where it belongs, the opposition.

    Abbott and the opposition blocked the original MRRT and had the revenue from the revamp significantly reduced. It was the MRRT that was to pay for the tax cuts to business.

    I see some businesses are also making reference to the failure of the original MRRT.

    In the meantime when asked how they will pay for their even bigger business tax cuts, the opposition have refused to detail anything saying they will do so much closer to the election.

    I suppose they are going to use Hockeynomics. This is where you can hugely increase government spending and outlays by dramatically reducing government revenue and incomes. Hockey said it again in response to a question of where the opposition are going to get the money from for all their spending commitments whilst removing the revenue streams put in place by the government.

  414. John Howard’s words on the police raids conducted against two Liberals. Contrast this to the very disingenuous Abbott, who back then said there was a presumption of innocence and now is saying there does not deserve to be a presumption of innocence.

    First Howard said he didn’t know all the facts involved so having established that he then went on to say;

    “But a lot of people who are under investigation end up having nothing to answer for.”

    That is what Thomson’s lawyer is also saying, but not Abbott, he already has Thomson charged, guilty and punished.

    Howard again. “It’s a police investigation and the appropriate thing for me to do is to let the police investigation run its course and then if it is appropriate I will have something to say.”

    Abbott. I will say and condemn to my heart’s content, investigation or not, outcome or not, I am the judge, jury and executioner of this land and what I say goes because I’m a mean arrogant tough man who will do and say anything for political gain, even if that trashes the rule of law and our democracy.

  415. “Claims such as ’2,500 of the world’s leading scientists have reached a consensus that human activities are having a significant influence on the climate’ are disingenuous.

    “That particular consensus judgement, as are many others in the IPCC reports, is reached by only a few dozen experts in the specific field of detection and attribution studies; other IPCC authors are experts in other fields.”

    Mike Hulme

  416. Sorry el gordo that article you sourced is not new and the claims in it are almost word for word the same as the original piece claiming there is no consensus. They do it by cooking the numbers.

  417. Don’t know sue but the Liberal States are doing some terrible things to and with democracy in order to not only aid their re-election chances as they fail their people, but also to help the clueless Abbott.

  418. Well, ME, they seem to be waking up, quickly it would seem, in Victoria since the 2010 elections.

    That if one puts much faith in polls. which I do not.

  419. There is a group of scientist, that are meeting in Tassie, to find ways of protecting the great white land below us.

    Funny that they start off their comments, saying the melting of the ice is inevitable or words to that effect.

    One would think they believe in man made climate change, and what’s more, is happening now.

    Of course they are only experts, and would not know anything.

  420. Tree, it is wonderful how you get information, negative to the PM before anyone else. You indeed must have good connections.

    Just because it is in some unpublished book, does not necessarily make it true.

    Even if true, the context could give it a different meaning.

    What is true, from my point of view, Mr. Rudd was all over the place at that time. Maybe he should have done a little more work with the Greens, who knows.

    If I was in the ministry, I would have been having concerns with Mt. Rudd’s ability to take it further.

    No matter what, the PM said that she would definitely bring in a price on carbon emissions during her election campaign.

    Please do not bore us with the statement that the PM would not bring in a carbon tax. In reality she has not, the PM has kept her word.

    The question I ask, does it address man made climate change, what I and most of the worlds scientist believe is true.

    Yes it does.

  421. Tax reform in chaos.

    Some inconvenient facts.

    The government has proposed a workable solution to bringing down company tax.

    The Opposition and Greens would not vote for the proposal. . Money spent elsewhere to assist low income earners.

    The government sets up a body, mostly businessmen to come up with a solution. They have but the business community will not support the moves.

    It was agreed that there would be no lowering of company taxes, until the budget can afford it.

    What is in disarray is that.

    Also why is it so essential to bring down company taxes. Is there any real evidence, not whinging from the business world that it will do, as it says it will.

  422. “Abbott has said that Thomson doesn’t deserve the presumption of innocence and his vote is tainted.”

    Sorry, it is not about deserving. It is about protecting a pillar of our democracy.

    One cannot pick and choose when it comes to justice and procedural fairness.

    People elect their MP, it is up to them to vote them out.

    There are exceptions made in the parliament for exceptions to this rule.

    Mr. Thomson has not met those exceptions.

    The exceptions are to become bankrupt. To be convicted and sentenced to more than a years jail.

    Public opinion, slurs, allegations and rumours do not count.

    Many people are charged and found innocent. Many allegations and rumours are proven false.

    Especially so, when promoted in a political climate, as is today, when removing an MP could lead to a change of government.

    Why should Mr. Thomson resign, so Mr. Abbott can achieve what he believed he was robbed of, the role of PM.

    If this was not so, we would be hearing very little of this matter.

    Surely it did not need up to a dozen police from Victoria and more from NSW to descend on the Central Coast yesterday.

    What is the cost of the ongoing police investigations. Surely it should not be that hard to test the evidence, mainly provided by Ms. Jackson.

    I am not saying that Thomson is innocence. I do not know at this time, neither does anyone else.

    My gripe is the way our political; and legal systems are being trashed, by one man, in his obsession to become PM.

    If the media are correct, all he has to do is wait. Why is he not doing this.

    Might be that the Australian public are not so stupid, and Mr. Abbott knows this.

  423. It was said in Lang’s days, as Premier of NSW, the employers put a note in the pay packets of all workers on the eve of the elections.

    It warned the employees not to make the mistake of voting for Labor.

  424. Now the opposition is whining because the MMRT is not sending miners broke. Cannot have it both ways.

    After all it is and always been a tax on excessive or above normal profits.

    It appears it is working as it was planned.

    That is what was so stupid about the miners objection to the MRRT.

    In fact it was them that suggested that royalties should be replaced with a similar tax.

    What has happened to the miners appeals to the courts, to have it made unconstitutional?

  425. Abbott now on. ABC24.

    Failure. According to Abbott.

    His versions of what is going on.

    Surely if there were no MRRT collected, it cannot be harming the economy.

    Claims the budget will be damaged. Did we just have a review that said the opposite.

    Nothing new, just the slogans etc.

    Just repeating what was said last week.

    The only things that count is the bottom line. That seems OK.

  426. ‘Funny that they start off their comments, saying the melting of the ice is inevitable or words to that effect.’

    Did they mention the bipolar seesaw?

  427. Wayne Swan coming on in the next hour or so.

    Packers endeavours signed off. At stage two.

    Oh, how nice it is to be rich and powerful. You can have whatever your heart desires.

  428. The Opposition are in their glory this morning. The smiles are back on their faces, especially Hocky’s.

    They love it when able to spend messages of doom and having the opportunity to talk the economy down further.

    Mr. Swan has spoken ABC unable to bring it live. Will be bringing some of it. Must have been on whey Abbott was speaking.

  429. Not often one can agree with Latham.

    My theory on Abbott is that he is a habitual exaggerator, an attention seeker who will say or do anything to inflate the perceived sins of his opponents. This has been his pattern of behaviour over the past three years on economic policy – most notably, the impact of the carbon tax.

    So too, for domestic political gain, he has exaggerated his commitment to towing boats back to Indonesia. If he is not willing to raise the issue directly with the Indonesian President, it is unlikely he will do anything about it in government. As with most matters Abbott, his rhetorical flourishes have been just for show.

    This failure of leadership has raised other, character-related difficulties for the Liberal leader. The Indonesians, having stared down Abbott on his biggest policy initiative, would have walked away from the meeting questioning his strength and integrity.

    http://afr.com/p/opinion/abbott_tow_back_sham_oDBjh89BD6x71KhdXrNrLL

  430. So that was the agressive voice one heard yesterday, during the Thomson press conference.

    Grilling: Craig Thomson could be one of the unluckiest men in Australia. On top of his well-publicised legal problems, who should be there when police raided his central coast home? None other than Sydney shock jock Ray Hadley. As Capital Circle’s colleague Strewth reports today, Hadley turned up at Thomson’s house with 2GB microphone “and that familiar, decibel-rich broadcaster’s voice”. Hadley was on holiday’s nearby when he heard of the raid.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/capital-circle/zero-return-for-mining-tax/story-fn59nqgy-1226502812805

  431. This is unbelievable.

    NIKI SAVVA
    That quacking is Abbott, sitting duck
    BY: NIKI SAVVA From: The Australian October 25, 2012 12:00AM 16 comments.

    THAT quacking sound you can hear in the distance is Tony Abbott. The Opposition Leader is slowly but surely turning into a sitting duck, a stationary target for government and media pot shots.

    The other bird sound you can make out, whenever Abbott says or does something silly, is the crow’s cry that Graham Kennedy mimicked years ago on television and that got him into so much trouble. Textspeak boils it down to three letters, WTF.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/that-quacking-is-abbott-sitting-duck/story-fnahw9xv-1226502628208

    Worthwhile going behind thay pay wall to read.

  432. The Miners must be so happy they won their stoush with the government on the original mining tax. Yes they don’t pay the MRRT because that is on excessive profits but get to pay royalties , which keep on escalating by their liberal premiers. And what is so fantastic about royalties even the little guys get to pay because royalties are about premiers, and their budgets.
    Will Twiggy keep up with his High court challenge? Is Twiggy really just trying to find out if royalties are constitutional?

  433. CU
    I read that quacking duck opinion piece.
    Interesting how Sava in the Australian, wrote about conservatives being upset about bias in the media!
    Anyone would think that Conservatives are unhappy about the protection racket, the msm, that surrounds Tony Abbott.

    But reading around that, Sava acknowledges the polls are tightening, the disquiet among liberals about Abbott and importantly the negativity towards Credlin and the power she had had.

    Poor Sava she hopes Abbott will introduce an innovative policy. As if Abbott could change direction.

  434. This will make farmers happy, a good news story, the type that Tony Windsor said was the opportunity the farming industry would see as a result of the Carbon Tax.!

    “The farm’s owner, Edwina Beveridge, says it has been a huge success.

    “We’re the first farm,” she said.

    “I believe the people before us are flaring land fill gas, so we’re the first farm, first people in New South Wales, first pig farm, first of a lot of things.

    “I will have to do some calculations based on the electricity we generate. A rough estimate we expect that we might be able to earn $80,000 a year.”

    The piggery no longer has power bills as a result of the project.

    “Our electricity and gas bill combined used to be about $15,000 a month,” Ms Beveridge said.

    “We are now earning $5,000 a month with selling excess electricity. The project has, we think, a three-year payback period, so you can do the maths.

    “It’s nice to be at the head of the pack.”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-25/methane-conversion-makes-piggery-carbon-neutral/4332602

  435. No seesaw to be seen, eg,

    “There’s been an overall increase in the sea ice cover in the Antarctic, which is the opposite of what is happening in the Arctic,” said lead author Claire Parkinson, a climate scientist with NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md. “However, this growth rate is not nearly as large as the decrease in the Arctic.”

  436. Sue, maybe the dressing down she got on Insiders has led to her waking up.noticed for once, she is laying the blame where it belongs. That is at the Abbott’s feet. Spell checker added “the” Will leave it there.

    Notice the glee on the faces of Abbott and Co this morning. They just cannot help themselves. I think they are saying, we told you so.

    I suspect there are not many listening..

  437. It could be the states raising royalties that have led to the MRRT being lower than expected.

    Abbot, Morrison and Hockey have been on in full. Now we Greens; Brandt and Rhiannon..

    They keep telling us that Mr. Swan has had a conference, that they will be bringing it in the next few hours.

    Why the delay. Is not what he has to say important.

  438. …………..Going into the 2013 election, there might just be a chance that these debates are taken up by Julia Gillard and Tony Abbott instead. Just what are we building in Australia, and where are the people and money going to come from that will build it?

    We have a court system to prosecute Craig Thomson if, indeed, he’s done anything wrong. Dictionary editors don’t listen to pollies or angry journalists when they decide what ‘common usage’ of a word is. Treasury aren’t a bunch of crooks trying to prop up a corrupt government with phoney forecasts. And locking up boat people in tent cities on Nauru has everything to do with petty politics and nothing to do with a real deterrent or, heaven forbid, the controlled migration that Australia needs.

    At some point – and please, please, let it be before the next election – our leaders must rise above the empty point scoring and set out a vision for the nation as a bigger, more prosperous, compassionate citizen of our region.

    The government’s white paper on ‘Australia in the Asian Century’, which lead-author Ken Henry has taken four months past his deadline to complete, is expected to be released on Sunday. No doubt it will be chock-full of material to frame the big leadership questions of the next decade – if the PM, or opposition leader care to do so.

    Give backbenchers small tasks, and let the leaders lead.

    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Labor-cattle-exports-baby-bonus-Kelvin-Craig-Thoms-pd20121025-ZDSCT?opendocument&src=idp&utm_source=exact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=122474&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary

  439. Joe Hockey is really over the top with glee about the MRRT. So if in the new 3 months the govt raises revenue, will Hockey be happy or sad?

  440. Wonder what will be the most important thing to happen on Melbourne Cup day. Will it be interest rates, or the election of the USA President.

    I think, it will depend on who is elected, that gives some indication to our economic future.

    Read somewhere this morning that Mr. Obama’s efforts were not too bad.

    The other one, like Abbott, scares me.

  441. In my opinion Rudd’s greatest success.

    620 schools across Australia now have completed Trade Training Centres with 300 more to come.

    That is another thing Abbott has stated he will dismantle to return to one of Howard’s biggest failures, Technical Colleges.

    So 30 limited scope, reach and ineffective Technical Colleges to replace 920 very successful and widespread Trade Training Centres.

    Just in this policy alone you can see why Abbott is such a doofus when it comes to policies, and then he mostly has to rely on espousing previous policies, even if they were proven failures, because he has so little brain to come up with anything of his own along with his backbench lacking in talent they haven’t enough brain power between the lot to help him out of his doofus brain farts on the rare policy he announces.

  442. Iron ore up to $118 which is a 38% increase in it’s low of September.

    If resources continue to climb even modestly then a nobbled MRRT will bring in considerable revenue to the government, revenue Abbott has promised to rescind with no replacement and tax cuts to these companies as well.

    Never has the term magic pudding for the opposition’s economic credibility been an apter term.

  443. I think Howard’s position came from his own school days.

    They were mine too. In NSW there were trade and domestic schools. These provided the factory fodder and the home makers.

    There were academic schools, to prepare the leaders I society, I assume.

    In the bush, there were a few agriculture, to cater for the needs of those on the land.

    A few, as I was, were lucky to go to a comprehension. They were not the norm.

    Then we had further streams, being boys and girls separate schools.

    Then we had a few like Sydney High, which only took the brightest of the brightest.

    Everyone knew their place from primary school.

    Mr. Howard was heard to say on many occasions, that many children did not need to go to Uni, as trade courses were enough.

    Mr.Howard tried to create the impression, that we did not need those uni graduates. His action helped to lead to the scarcity we had of these graduates over the last few years.

    What Mr. Howard did not, realize to see, the answer to the lack of those entering the trades could be fixed, by diverting them from uni. We need everyone of those we can get.

    The answer lay in encouraging those who had no qualifications, those leaving school early to enter the trades.

    In other words, from the bottom up, not from the top down.

    There are many laborers and other non skilled workers, that have the knowledge to bring them up to tradesman level quickly.

    Second chances must be given to those that failed at school.

    Mr. Howard’s elite trades schools set up in opposition to TAFE’s is not the answer.

    Keeping kids at school, no matter their academic outcome, can only be of benefit to them. Getting trade training into the schools is the way to go. Hold onto them long enough, the appetite for learning will return.

    Letting them leave, to sit in front of a TV for a couple of years, will only entrench their withdrawal from the community.

    Why the right hate TAFE’s , I cannot work out.

  444. ME, all that Abbott and Co showed today, they have no idea how the MRRT and Clean Energy Future is supposed to work.

    Swan now on ABC 24.

    It does not tax when business is doing it tough.

    Have you factored it in. Swan. Of course.

    Hockey acting strangely. Hockey. You cannot blame the government but I do.

  445. Swan, we will not decrease the company tax, by doing what many many, to attack the little income earners in the street.

  446. “this growth rate is not nearly as large as the decrease in the Arctic.”

    That’s true and Antarctic sea ice gets thinner further out, still its impressive and SLR has been kept in check.

    I’ll look for an image.

  447. ‘El Gordo’s has two-minds about sea thaws.’

    I would like to thank the member for Broken Hill for that dorothy dix. The bipolar seesaw is real and of immense interest to kitchen table scientists, but I don’t expect the clowns in this place to take it seriously.

  448. The crazy thing about this global warming crap is that Labor govts built desalination plants because the scientists said it would never again rain like it used to. A number have been built and the state govts have had to shut them down because they are not needed due to it raining like it used to. I think the one in Perth is being used.

    How much has this false religion cost us?? Furthermore if they built dams we could also get some hydro electricity which is a green fuel.

  449. Neil, do you really believe we are not going to have similar long dries again.

    Third, the government is bound to come under pressure from the Greens and independents to go back to Parliament and toughen up the legislation. At the very least, the Greens are stepping up claims this morning to close the royalties loophole.
    The opposition has been claiming simultaneously that the MRRT will raise no revenue— and will destroy the industry. The latter claim looks patently silly but the opposition won’t mind.
    ”I have never heard of a tax that doesn’t raise a dollar,” Joe Hockey said this morning. ”The surplus is gone.”
    Indeed, slightly cryptic language contained in Monday’s budget update began softening the electorate for the possibility the government would have to break its promise of a surplus this year.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/softly-softly-a-slide-into-the-red-comes-into-view-20121025-286tr.html#ixzz2AHJQkwSz

    el gordo, have you seen that picture of a plane that cannot land in the Antartic this year because of rising temperatures over the last few years. Used to be able to land up to 20 times a year. The last couple 2 and 4. None this year.

    Something about the temperature rising.

  450. ‘How much has this false religion cost us?’

    Not as much, Niel, as the other ‘false’ religions that pay no tax at all.

  451. “While we are there, the ozone hole is the second smallest its been in two decades.”

    Something to do with banning some chemicals used in pressure paks and refrigeration, I believe.

  452. Neil, do you really believe we are not going to have similar long dries again.”

    This is the driest continent on earth. I do not think climate has changed due to CO2. It is just natural variation. What i do not understand is why not build dams?? They are cheaper and you can make electricity from them. Whereas a desal plant needs electricity.

    AGW is just another false religion like all ALP beliefs. I mainly come here to find out what not to believe. I have never seen a group of people wrong so many times

  453. ‘Something about the temperature rising.’

    It does appear so, but that is what you would expect in the NH at the end of the Modern Climate Optimum.

    Of more interest to me, how soon before we see icebergs off Margaret River?

  454. ‘Something to do with banning some chemicals used in pressure paks and refrigeration, I believe.’

    Next year it may come back with a vengeance, then we’ll question how this scam came about and who profited? If you want to crucify a multinational, you have my blessing.

    Might follow this up, it has the promise of a scoop.

  455. Seems the bipolars are both melting, …. :(
    “Rapid melting in some parts of the continent is partially offset by heavy snowfalls elsewhere, meaning that the net loss of ice per year is about 69 billion tonnes…”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/environment/weather/190m-tonnes-of-ice-a-day-has-sea-rising-less-than-1mm-a-year-20121022-2817w.html#ixzz2AHQKEiwP

    http://www.theage.com.au/environment/weather/190m-tonnes-of-ice-a-day-has-sea-rising-less-than-1mm-a-year-20121022-2817w.html

  456. Hockey caught out lying big time over the NBN again though he’s been told about the lies previously and Turnbull has stated the government is correct in its accounting practices for the NBN, it’s standard international and government accounting as also conducted by the Howard government, that last time I looked Hockey was a member of.

    Liberal’s Lie, lie and more lies, just keep piling them on top of one another. When Hockey’s office was contacted about him yet again lying after previously having his lying on this corrected and having it shown to be a lie, repeated the lie and said to refer to his previous speeches on the matter, that is his previous lies.

    This is the man who states he can simultaneously decrease government revenue and increase government spending by decreasing revenue doesn’t understand standard accounting practice, or if he does lies about it.

  457. Cubby is a member of the warminsta and all his work is slanted, note the clever way he handled the last two pars. Reality followed by hyperbole in pursuit of grants.

    ‘Professor King said the findings showed that sea levels had already been rising faster than they had for centuries without much extra water from the Antarctic ice sheet.

    ”The melt in some key areas is sped up between 2006 and 2010, when the study ended,” he said. ”So it shows that sea level rise can be expected to change quite sharply if the melt rate continues to increase, on top of what’s already happening.”

  458. Well it’s going to be interesting to see el gordo squirm out of that one.

    So the Antarctic is losing ice in total, not gaining it as el gordo has often claimed.

  459. So the satellites you quote as saying there is no global warming are now lying el gordo. Joke surely?

    (my bold)
    “Antarctica is shedding an average of 190 million tonnes of ice every day, according to a landmark study that used satellites to ”weigh” the vast landmass.”

  460. “What i do not understand is why not build dams?? They are cheaper and you can make electricity from them. Whereas a desal plant needs electricity.”

    Maybe Neil, because it might not be the answer.

    Maybe, because dams do cause a lot a damage to good farmland.

    Maybe, because we do not have a permanent snowline. Dams also get empty in long dries.

    That electricity does not have to come from burning coal. There are many alternatives.

  461. “If you want to crucify a multinational, you have my blessing.”

    Rather see that, then have my descendents die from sunburn and cancer.

    We still have refrigeration. We still have pressure paks. So I assume, jobs lost in one area, are taken up by new jobs in others.

    The same will occur as we moved away from fossil fuels to a clean energy future.

  462. ‘Although parts of East Antarctica are growing, glaciers in West Antarctica are melting faster, leading to a net loss of ice across the continent, according to the study published in the journal Nature.’

    West Antarctica, the peninsular and nearby waters, is volcanic and warmer than the eastern half. Anyway the discussion is about sea ice extent, not glacial melt.

  463. ME, what do you mean. I think I have missed something. Is it that there is very little or no MRRT because of net loss.

  464. Dams are environmentally destructive, which is why dam building has slowed in modern times. Three Gorges has caused untold environmental damage and you need look no further than the Snowy River to see how it’s killed a whole river system and surrounding environments. By the way the generating capacity of the Snowy River has been surpassed by renewables in Australia at a lower cost.

    Even the smallest of dams like those you see on farms change the micro climate around them and thus the habitat, that is scaled up for larger dams, to the point Three Gorges has created a desert in once fertile land and is slowly killing swaths of pristine and unique forests and grasslands, and that doesn’t include the land it flooded.

  465. eg

    Anyway the discussion is about sea ice extent, not glacial melt.

    well no, its not. its about the lies put out by denialists wrt to agw, as far as i am concerned – you repeatedly made claims about a mythical “seesaw effect” affecting polar icecaps. i provided a link showing that no such phenomenon exists, and which states further

    Parkinson said that the fact that some areas of the Southern Ocean are cooling and producing more sea ice does not disprove a warming climate.

    “Climate does not change uniformly: The Earth is very large and the expectation definitely would be that there would be different changes in different regions of the world,” Parkinson said. “That’s true even if overall the system is warming.”

    .

    CU, i suspect that the NET LOSS referred to by Mo, was in reference to the north and south ice caps (the arctic and antarctic) – in eg’s fantasy world, the northern ice loss (sea ice only) is “balanced” by an increase in the antarctic sea ice extent.
    the link i provided shows no such phenomenon exists

    The Antarctic minimum extents, which are reached in the midst of the Antarctic summer, in February, have also slightly increased to 1.33 million square miles in 2012, or around 251,000 square miles more than the average minimum extent since 1979.

    The numbers for the southernmost ocean, however, pale in comparison with the rates at which the Arctic has been losing sea ice — the extent of the ice cover of the Arctic Ocean in September 2012 was 1.32 million square miles below the average September extent from 1979 to 2000. The lost ice area is equivalent to roughly two Alaskas.

  466. This whole MRRT revenue thing’s an excellent example of how the MSM & coalition get away with anything. Steadfastly refusing to seriously make the point that the tax applies only to very big profits indeed, the MSM can now ridicule the government on the simplistic line that there’s no income, bugger the reason why. And Abbott can simultaneously get away with predicting financial ruin to them all whilst lampooning the fact the companies have paid zilch.
    I’ve had them, yesterday’s effort with Thomson was a real disgrace. This joint will deserve what it gets. I just don’t want to be collateral damage.

  467. “CU, i suspect that the NET LOSS referred t”

    Worked that out. That is what I get, from not reading the comments.

  468. Bob, Swan had a PC around 9 am. They told us about it for hours on ABC24. Did not show it, until five hours later.

    He was attending an NBN site, which no questions were asked.

    In the meantime, we had the Opposition and Greens, over and over all day.

    Mr. Swan explained it clearly what it was about. Made nonsense of what the Coalition was saying.

    Hockey has sent out a letter, claiming Swan makes it up as he goes along.

    That has to be a wonderful example of the pot calling the kettle black.

  469. But it’s not just the loss of extent that is an indicator, and that’s not the worst in regards to both polar regions. What’s occurring is a loss of mass and that’s what the satellites are measuring. Both polar icecaps are losing mass even though their extents may recover somewhat each season, their full mass is not.

    The argument of the deniers in regards to the Antarctic is that it has been gaining ice whilst the Arctic has been losing it. None have pushed this as much as el gordo here, who has jumped on every little snippet that apparently supports the held erroneous view.

    It has always been a false dichotomy because what is inevitably quoted in the eagerness to diss global warming and the ice caps indicators is polar ice extent when what should be quoted is polar ice mass. Ice is not just being loss from the surface but more so from underneath. Look up the phenomena, it’s easy to find.

  470. Yas BSA the stupidity of Abbott’s statement regarding the MRRT not bringing in any revenue in the first three months is unbelievable, and he only gets away with the idiocy because of the media propping him up.

    Just take the point he has promised to scrap the MRRT and cut taxes to the business it applies to, but now he’s saying the MRRT not bringing in any revenue is an economic disaster, ergo his promised policy is an economic disaster.

  471. no, eg,- from your link

    The importance of the research may not be so much to prove the bipolar seesaw mechanism may indeed exist, but also to lengthen the Greenland temperature dataset – and understand that in greater detai

    i had assumed that the “seesaw” you were referring to was an equilibrium effect(s) between arctic/antarctic sea ice melt/gain – not as

    a ‘thermal bipolar seesaw theory,’ whereby an off-mode in the thermohaline circulation leads to an ice age in Europe, but excess heat storage down south.

    . an idea i’ve known about for a while.
    apologise if i assumed incorrectly :grin:

  472. Lovo

    I’ll see your six months out of date idiot tracker and raise you with an up to date message….http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/10/18/sea-ice-news-volume-3-number-15-arctic-refreeze-fastest-ever/
    “After all of the news about a minimum record ice extent last month, this is interesting. As we know when water loses its ice cover, it allows a lot of heat to radiate into space as LWIR. many predictied that as a result of the extra open ocean surface, we see a very fast refreeze in the Arctic. It appears they were right. In fact, this is the fastest monthly scale refreeze rate in the NSIDC satellite record going back to 1979″

    Take that as instructive for idiots who don’t really understand the cyclical nature of climate!

  473. Meanwhile the most inept treasurer ever makes small mining companies waste money on compliance to discover they won’t be paying his mining tax…

    Atlas Iron managing director Ken Brinsden said the Pilbara miner had already spent about $2 million only to determine it will not pay the tax, adding it was unlikely the juniors would have to pay the tax under any scenario. “Nobody wins at where we are at today,” he said. “If you love the idea that the mining industry should be taxed, you haven’t won because nobody is paying it, and in the meantime, it is costing us to comply to be a part of the mining tax regime, only to find that we are not paying it.

    Utterly inept and you can bet the featherless duck had it spent before he earned it…Bwa hahahahaha what a goose!

  474. Oh, deary me, companies have to keep track of their profits for the whole year. That is indeed a great impost.

    Oh, what a goose of miners, no wonder they fall down, when there is a reversal in ore prices.

    In these days of computers, does one really believe it is a great expectation that businesses at a push of the button, cannot see where they are at.

    We are long past the days, we had men sitting on high stools before big ledgers, entering the figures.

    It seems the impost of the MRRT is not going to lead to the end of the industry in this country, and once again Mr. Abbott is once again guilty of exaggerated claims and scare tactics. In fact he either lied, or has no idea how a tax on super profits works.

    The scary thing is, it could be both..

  475. Its ICESAT against GRACE.

    No it’s not. It’s Watts distorting satellite data or deliberately leaving out information to fudge the figures.

    Do a search on GRACE and you see that denier blogs like hockeyschtick and Watts show mass increasing yet university (like NTNU) and climate science sites have GRACE’s data showing a loss of ice mass.

    I know el gordo will believe the denier sites against the science ones, that’s el gordo’s problem.

  476. “After all of the news about a minimum record ice extent last month, this is interesting. As we know when water loses its ice cover, it allows a lot of heat to radiate into space as LWIR…”

    Something for Treeman to think about:

    The (net) emission of heat to space can only happen at night (for obvious reasons).

    But dark water and white snow or ice are equally good emitters in the infra red wavelengths.

    And given that Arctic seawater can be lower than the temperature of the snow and ice, emission from these sources is higher than from the water, given the 4th power radiation law (Stephan-Boltzmann).

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