AGW – Talkabout IV

As suggested, this where you can argue all you like about human-induced climate change.

610 comments on “AGW – Talkabout IV

  1. el gordo disses science organisations and scientists specialising in climate. Disses their science and decades of empirical data. Disses their models and meticulously gathered data from field trips from around the globe. El gordo disses everything they do out of hand without a skerrick of evidence just to be contrary and to troll (in the real meaning of online troll).

    Yet el gordo believes the man quoted below and when he does a rare quote with source this man features.

    Monckton at the launch of Danny Nalliah’s fundamentalist “Rise Up Australia” party.

    I don’t need to say no more and el gordo has no credibility at all, not an iota.

  2. WA gets grim climate warning

    The West Australian, 16 August 2011

    A new report into the effects of climate change in WA has painted a bleak picture, warning that significant coastal flooding will become routine, hundreds of plant and animal species will be wiped out and agricultural productivity will plummet.

  3. Perth to swelter through to New Year

    Their ABC, 25 December 2012

    The Bureau of Meteorology is forecasting a heat wave to hit Perth over the coming days.

    The barometer reached 39.6 degrees at the Bureau’s Mount Lawley recording station on Christmas Day, with other parts of Perth hitting 40 degrees.

    Senior Forecaster Matt Boterhoven says it was the fifth hottest Christmas on record.

  4. Lol Migs,

    Cuppa, el gordo will only claim they’ve been photo shopped. :roll:

    By the looks of it the poor old coot’s brain has been photo-shopped!

  5. And in 2010…

    Perth hit by 3 days of 40 degrees temps

    The Age, 19 January 2010

    Perth has sweltered through three consecutive days of temperatures over 41 degrees celsius, along with its hottest night in 21 years.

    The Bureau of Meteorology said the three-day run of 40-plus temperatures was the first since March 2007 and just the 10th since 1933, when the city recorded four straight days of more than 40C.

    In the last 10 years, the “hat-trick” was also completed in January 2007 and March 2003.

  6. Melbourne in 2010…

    Blackouts hit state as 100-year mark is reached

    The Age, 13 January 2010

    Cranky Melburnians have sweated through the city’s equal hottest night on record.

    As a cool change swept through, citizens were counting the cost in heat exhaustion, soaring air-conditioner usage and power failures.

    The temperature eased to an uncomfortable 30.6 degrees at 8.50am yesterday, the highest overnight minimum for 108 years.

    The only other known time the minimum stayed over 30 overnight was the 30.6 degrees of February 1, 1902.

  7. I have been left wing Labor all my life, now I’m voting for the Nats.

    ‘How will the future atmospheric circulation be different as trace gas concentrations increase? All GCMs propose that the polar regions will warm significantly more than the tropics and that warming will occur throughout the bottom 40,000 feet of the atmosphere.

    ‘Furthermore, most of the warming will occur during low sun periods—night and winter. So the best place to look for evidence of greenhouse warming is in winter, when the effect should be most noticeable. And the signal to look for is a weakening of the jet stream and a contraction of the circumpolar vortex—in short, the winter atmosphere should become more summer like.’

    World Climate Report

    This is not happening.

  8. I have been left wing Labor all my life, now I’m voting for the Nats.

    Yeah, whatever you reckon, “lefty”. Truth is you’ve probably always been a National / Lieberal voter. RWFs are notorious for being loose with the truth. As demonstrated by your spinning for the One Per Cent with the climate change denial propaganda. On fat Gina’s payroll are you, wingnut?

  9. Cuppa, nothing el gordo has provided here has changed my mind about global climate change.

    Not even the snow falls in Alaska. :mrgreen:

  10. Migs,

    Cuppa, nothing el gordo has provided here has changed my mind about global climate change.

    The only one they’re fooling is themselves. So much effort expended… and for what, to come across to the world as a obsessive fruitcake? Tragic.

    To me the problem is as much about air pollution. The unbridled consumption of fossil fuels can only be harmful ultimately. We’re digging up fossils (fuel) that have lain out of harm’s way below the land / sea for millions of years. Then combusting them and sending the noxious byproducts into the atmosphere! That goes against the course of nature in such a profound way.

    The other problem is developing alternatives to fossil fuels. Civilisation practically runs on the stuff at the moment. But they’re a finite resource, so we need contingency planning, aside from the issue of it stuffing up the environment / climate.

  11. ‘The unbridled consumption of fossil fuels can only be harmful ultimately.’

    You’ll be leaving the car in the garage from now on?

  12. Cuppa,

    That’s a fact that is conveniently overlooked by the denialati. But we needn’t worry: it’s snowing in Siberia so we’re all saved.

  13. Back in 2000 Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia wrote “within a few years winter snowfall will become “a very rare and exciting event”.

    Today 61.4% of the US is covered in snow…http://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/nsa/

    How rare and exciting for Viner!

  14. We should all stop driving immediately, for the sake of our grandchildren. I’m ready, willing and able, are any of you?

  15. “The only one they’re fooling is themselves. So much effort expended… and for what, to come across to the world as a obsessive fruitcake…”

    That sounds exactly like you, Cuppa, mentally disabled by total conviction and faith that:

    1. The planet is warming out of control and 97% of scientists agree
    2. Man is responsible and anyone who questions that is a fruitcake
    3. Somehow man is able to magically limit temperature rise to 2 degrees C

  16. “We should all stop driving immediately, for the sake of our grandchildren. I’m ready, willing and able, are any of you?”

    They won’t el gordo..they can’t. Everything we all depend on like veges and bread, milk and fruit all has to be transported and marketed. It all requires diesel to drive the farm machinery. Population levels are such that an exit from volume production of food is not an option which is precisely why Greens policies are impractical.

  17. One of the good things about putting a levy on the big polluters via the so-called “carbon tax” is that a portion of the money raised goes into fostering research into clean energy production.

    Countries around the world are moving in a determined manner towards developing and exploiting clean energy. Some places such as Scotland and Denmark are talking about going carbon-free within a few decades. Thanks to the “carbon tax” Australia is now officially in the game, we’re making ourselves competitive in what is a growing race / field of endeavour.

    If the conservatives had had their way we would have remained on the sidelines looking on, retarded and being left behind by progress.

  18. What did you mean by this rejoinder? Sounds like heckling.

    ‘…being left behind by progress.’

    You’re taking the piss, right?

  19. Progress is a relative thing.

    The one-liner strikes again.

    You really are an empty vessel.

    OK, let’s talk about “relative” progress.

    On the one hand you have countries such as Scotland and Denmark (plus there are others) that have the goal of going carbon-free within a few decades. China is putting immense effort into developing and exploiting renewable energy. Germany is a world leader in solar. There wouldn’t be a single country in the world not cognisant of the need to compete in the burgeoning race to clean energy economic production.

    Then there’s the reactionary element which is out of all proportion in Australia. When the government moves to limit pollution and foster development of clean energy, the reactionary element goes off their heads. “Put the PM in a chaff bag!” they cry on the airwaves. “There’s no problem, we don’t need to change. We fear and loathe change. It is against our reactionary ideology”.

    So while the rest of the world moves forward in human endeavour and innovation, cleaning up the atmosphere and slowing resource depletion, the useless rednecks here want to retard us as a country and economy, and see us become out of date and irrelevant.

    That’s the “relatives” of standing still as opposed to moving forward. Decay versus progress.

  20. el gordo
    DECEMBER 27, 2012 @ 8:36 AM
    ‘…being left behind by progress.’

    You’re taking the piss, right?
    Cuppa
    DECEMBER 27, 2012 @ 8:46 AM
    Argue a case if you’ve got one, drongo, instead of inane one-liners.”

    el gordo Cuppa wouldn’t know how to take the piss…too busy being offended and tossing about callous remarks!

  21. Cuppa wrote:
    “Countries around the world are moving in a determined manner towards developing and exploiting clean energy. Some places such as Scotland and Denmark are talking about going carbon-free within a few decades”

    How interesting that Britain just gave the green light to gas tracking. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/gas/9741802/Fracking-Coalition-gives-go-ahead-to-controversial-shale-gas-drilling.html

    In Denmark misinformation about wind farming abounds. http://cphpost.dk/commentary/opinion/opinion-myth-denmark-corruption-free-country
    Obsession with becoming “carbon free” in a world where CO2 is not a pollutant will be something that Cuppa and many other dreamers will find very hard to swallow.

  22. ‘When the government moves to limit pollution and foster development of clean energy…’

    CO2 is not a pollutant.

  23. CO2 is not a pollutant

    You trying to imply that burning fossil fuels isn’t dangerous?

    For chrissakes. Here’s a hypothetical experiment. Do not try this at home… Imagine you had a conveyor belt bringing an endless supply of fossil fuels into an airtight space. As the fuels enter the space you ignite and combust them.

    To make the simulation more authentic put a couple of motor vehicles behind you with limitless fuel supply and leave the engines running. Airtight space, remember.

    Do that for a while and tell us air pollution isn’t a problem.

  24. ‘…standing still as opposed to moving forward.’

    No due diligence…warming stopped 16 years ago and the northern hemisphere is under snow. AGW is a monstrous fraud.

  25. “For chrissakes. Here’s a hypothetical experiment. Do not try this at home… Imagine you had a conveyor belt bringing an endless supply of fossil fuels into an airtight space. As the fuels enter the space you ignite and combust them.

    To make the simulation more authentic put a couple of motor vehicles behind you with limitless fuel supply and leave the engines running. Airtight space, remember.

    Do that for a while and tell us air pollution isn’t a problem.”

    Very unscientific Cuppa…your problem is you have not addressed the matter of CO2 not being a pollutant at all. The above experiment would undoubtedly produce pollutants, including Carbon monoxide, nitrogen dioxide and sulphur dioxide, soot, cadmium, lead mercury and arsenic and some CO2 which however is a gas of life. Without it all living plants would die.

    Think about it Cuppa…taxing a gas of life is up there with the most politically stupid decisions ever. Supporting that decision makes you no better than the Jonestown Kool-Aid drinkers.

  26. Oh the pathetic sight of the treetroll attempting to redefine the nature of “pollutant”
    as a rehash of the canard that because somrthing has a few beneficial qualities, it can’t be classed as a pollutant – sheer idiocy, and hopefully made in ignorance of the responses when this particular lie was recycled by another fool in a recent thread.

    How we choose to define the word ‘pollutant’ is a play in semantics. To focus on a few positive effects of carbon dioxide is to ignore the broader picture of its full impacts. The net result from increasing CO2 are severe negative impacts on our environment and the living conditions of future humanity.

    READ HERE

  27. It seems just like yesterday when I stormed out of this place vowing never to return, over that silly tax on a harmless trace gas, but that’s all forgotten. Nice cafe you have here….and all the best in reaching the million mark.

  28. Reading the bible I came across an incongruity.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/mar/14/met-office-arctic-sea-ice-loss-winter
    “Met Office: Arctic sea-ice loss linked to colder, drier UK winters”

    Then we have this…

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/gallery/2012/dec/23/floods-christmas-disruption-pictures
    ‘Floods cause pre-Christmas disruption

    ‘Dozens of communities have been affected by floods, and a week of further rain threatens more holiday misery.’

  29. Migs

    If taking the piss with references to Kool-Aid is below the belt then please give your opinion on the remarks of University of Graz Music Professor Richard Parncutt who has called for “the death penalty for climate deniers” Parncutt has removed the original but you can find it at WebCite: http://www.webcitation.org/6D8yy8NUJ

    Joanne Nova has written quite a critique of the Music Professor cum climate guru/executioner. http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/death-threats-anyone-austrian-prof-global-warming-deniers-should-be-sentenced-to-death/#more-26127

    Australia has its own unqualified climate alarmist. Cognitive Psychologist Professor Stephan Lewandowsky weighed into the climate debate with a scurrilous paper sandbagging sceptics. Problem is Lew really stuffed up the math, and as Jo Noca puts it, “It could have been sub-titled “The man who polled his prejudices and mistook them for the facts”. ”

    Lewandowsky’s reputation is now in tatters…http://joannenova.com.au/?s=Lewandowsky

    David Hoffer wrote to the University of Graz and has been instrumental in Parncutt’s apology. http://www.uni-graz.at/richard.parncutt/climatechange.html

    For mine Hoffer sums it up beautifully with these words:

    “The issues regarding climate science are many and complex. They deserve to be debated publicly. Indeed, it is crucial that they be debated publicly that facts, logic and science may prevail over politics, rhetoric, and in the case of those such as Richard Parncutt, hate speech reminiscent of last centuries darkest horrors.”

  30. Cuppa you are obviously aware that Watts will hove into the US temps with gusto, because of the dodgy sightings and manipulations.

    The MSM hasn’t picked up on it yet and it might be a game changer.

  31. The trolls as apostles of their denialist dogmas are certainly guilty of Ecocide

    Ecocide is not currently an international crime, although it is a domestic crime in at least ten countries. The legal definition of ecocide proposed to the United Nations in 2010 by Polly Higgins was:

    “The extensive damage to, destruction of or loss of ecosystem(s) of a given territory, whether by human agency or by other causes, to such an extent that peaceful enjoyment by the inhabitants of that territory has been or will be severely diminished. ” [17]

    It is an international crime to cause widespread, long-term and severe damage to the non-human environment during war time. Article 8(2)(b)(iv) of the Rome Statute prohibits:

    “Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the non-human environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated. ”

    However, there is no correlating crime during peace time. The existing law of war could be used in the interpretation of what constitutes ecocide. The 1977 United Nations Environmental Modification Convention specifies the terms ‘widespread’, ‘long-lasting’ and ‘severe’ as:

    widespread: encompassing an area on the scale of several hundred square kilometers;
    long-lasting: lasting for a period of months, or approximately a season;
    severe: involving serious or significant disruption or harm to human life, natural and economic resources or other assets

    I emphatically reject capital punishment., but this rejection does not include other forms of legal sanction against those who deliberately act against humanity and our civilisation’s best interests. as do the denialists.

    Such sanction will, if we (and they) are lucky, be enacted, prosecuted and enforced through legal and constitutional means. In a worse case, I suspect that furious .mobs will do so.

    The treetroll apparently believes that Jo Nova is a credible source is unsurprising in one so wilfully ignorant and delusional.

    Still, when you’ve got nothing……..

  32. ‘…those who deliberately act against humanity and our civilisation’s best interests. as do the denialists.’

    The Denialati deny such allegations, arguing that global cooling has begun and there will be no need to prosecute heretics.

    On the other hand, the Klimatariat and associated warminista will be forced into an awkward situation… as the world fails to warm, with an excessive amount of CO2 floating about.

    Desal plants, wind farms and solar assortments, green energy in all its glory, will be seen as human folly.

    The Denialati will push for a Royal Commission.

  33. Melbourne faces hottest week for 100 years

    Brisbane Times, 26 January 2009

    Melbourne is set to swelter through its hottest week in more than 100 years, with a series of scorchers also burning the month into the record books.

    A heatwave forecast for the next five days would make this January the hottest month ever recorded in the city, Bureau of Meteorology spokesman Terry Ryan said.

  34. A week is not a trend.

    This is where the action is…

    ‘Up to 70,000 British jobs are at risk as a direct result of European carbon reduction targets, according to a report.

    ‘The policies have pushed up the cost of energy, threatening the vital mineral industries which deal in materials such as cement, chemicals, glass, ceramics and steel, the study claims.

    ‘It says the aluminium industry has been ‘virtually eradicated’ after closures in Anglesey and Northumberland, and blames policies which penalise ‘energy-intensive’ industries for emitting too much carbon dioxide.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2253507/Up-70-000-British-jobs-risk-Brussels-climate-change-law.html#ixzz2GJkbPE7z
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  35. El gordo, do you realise that the Artic ice melts contribute to colder NH winters? The melting ice cools down the oceans. And why is the ice melting? Because of the hotter streams of ocean currents coming up from the SH.

  36. Migs

    If taking the piss with references to Kool-Aid is below the belt then please

    Treeman, it was your reference to Jonestown in likening one of the contributors here as a person who should have been there.

    And before you start screaming, I can assure you that I would have found the comment offensive even from a lefty.

    But I doubt a lefty would make such a claim anyway.

  37. ‘…do you realise that the Artic ice melts contribute to colder NH winters?’

    It has everything to do with the Arctic Oscillation (AO) in its negative state, but I grant you there is support for the proposition that when the Arctic is almost ice free in summer it will be a freezing NH winter.

    A tipping point for a mini ice age might be the AO and NAO going negative at the same time.

    The NOAA link mentions how some places are having below average snows this winter and this is obviously because of the wobbly jet stream.

  38. Under the AGW theory the circumpolar vortex would be restricted further north, but a wobbly jet stream indicates nothing unnatural is happening.

  39. Miglo

    “Treeman, it was your reference to Jonestown in likening one of the contributors here as a person who should have been there.”

    Now that really is a stretch, even for a lefty.

    “Don’t drink the Kool-Aid” has been used for decades as a metaphor that refers to a person or group holding an unquestioned belief, argument, or philosophy without critical examination.

    My comment in no way inferred that Cuppa should have been in Jonestown and your suggestion that it did is telling.

  40. The Performance of Wind Farms in the United Kingdom and Denmark:
    http://www.ref.org.uk/attachments/article/280/ref.hughes.19.12.12.pdf

    Dr Gordon Hughes is a Professor of Economics at the University of Edinburgh where he teaches courses in the Economics of Natural Resources and Public Economics. He was a senior adviser on energy and environ- mental policy at the World Bank until 2001. He has advised governments on the design and implementation of environmental policies and was responsible for some of the World Bank’s most important environmental guidelines.

    Hughes concludes…

    41. Wind power is a highly capital-intensive technology for generating electricity. Its merits rely entirely upon a substitution of capital for fuel inputs. The same is true for hydro or tidal or wave power. In comparison with hydro power, wind is a low quality resource because of its variability and because it cannot be stored. So, the economic case for wind power must rest on obtaining the most out of the wind that is available.

    42. While the decline in the achieved performance of onshore wind turbines in Denmark is much less than that for the UK or offshore, nonetheless the decline in expected output under standardised wind conditions over 10 years is 10% unweighted and 13% capacity weighted. These declines accelerate after age 10 so that the reductions in performance are 17% and 20% respectively after 15 years.

    43. For UK onshore wind farms the reduction in performance due to age is much worse at 27% unweighted and 69% capacity weighted by age 10.
    Evidence on the performance of Danish offshore installations is both restricted and so poor that there may be concern that the results are affected by a small number of outliers. Still, the sample contains a reasonable number of sites with at least 5 years of operating experience and the decline in performance by age 5 is 38% unweighted and 26% capacity weighted.

    44. In addition to these results there is strong evidence that the average normalised load factor for new onshore wind installations in the UK has fallen significantly over the period from 2000 to 2011. This is consistent with a pattern in which the most favourable sites are developed first. Equally, it could mean that wind developers have been unable to keep up with the rate of new investment while maintaining the quality of development and operations. For example, the site design or selection of turbine characteristics may make less effective use of the available wind resources for the sites available than was the case in the past.

    45. Whatever the reasons, the deterioration in initial performance means that the expected returns from the expansion in wind capacity, both for investors and in terms of the reduction in CO2 emissions, have been falling without a concomitant decrease in the private and social costs that are borne by customers and the general public. Clearly this is unsatisfactory at best and it suggests that the benefits claimed for current policies cannot be taken at face value.

  41. Now here’s a positive story!

    30 Under 30 – The Future Of Energy Is Nuclear…

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2012/12/17/30-under-30-the-future-of-energy-is-nuclear/

    “Welcome to the second-annual Forbes 30 Under 30 list of rising stars in the energy sector. Please check out the slideshow to see pics and bios of this year’s bunch….Nuclear power is, of course, the world’s only large-scale source of reliable baseload power generation that emits zero greenhouse gases. The lingering drawback is that it creates nuclear waste, and, with older reactor designs there’s a small, but material, risk of a catastrophic meltdown.

    Several of this year’s 30 are working to revolutionize nuclear power. Taylor Wilson built his first working nuclear reactor at age 14, is the recipient of a Thiel Fellowship, was the subject of this longread and is having a movie made about him…”

  42. ”Hurricane Sandy and a string of extreme weather events this year are an important reminder that climate change remains the biggest challenge of our time,” the lord mayor of Sydney, Clover Moore, said.

    ”Making New Year’s Eve carbon neutral shows you can stage a world-renowned event attended by over 1 million people and still be sustainable.”

    guffaw

  43. Hi el gordo, you appear to be discussing a ‘one-off’ situation. Climate change is not about dissecting isolated events but adding them up together.

  44. Migs, and with a huge sigh of relief I am so very pleased that someone (you that is ;)) has put it so clearly and so precisely..hopefully el gordo might take some notice..ah well, one can always dream…

  45. And I second Min, the tone is decidedly better on this thread now that the boss drops in occasionally.

    By far you best ever comment. :mrgreen:

    I’d like to be able to drop in more, but my mobile devices keep crashing. :(

  46. Miglo
    DECEMBER 29, 2012 @ 4:23 PM
    Hi el gordo, you appear to be discussing a ‘one-off’ situation. Climate change is not about dissecting isolated events but adding them up together.

    Miglo, that is precisely what CU and Cuppa do most days, link to one off weather events that purport to be climate related…

    Min
    DECEMBER 29, 2012 @ 4:30 PM
    Migs, and with a huge sigh of relief I am so very pleased that someone (you that is ) has put it so clearly and so precisely..hopefully el gordo might take some notice..ah well, one can always dream…

    Min, you both really do need educating…

  47. A certain Austrian Professor of music has his Anschluss moment archived forever…http://www.webcitation.org/6D8yy8NUJ

    And Christopher Monckton gets.. the threat withdrawn and a full apology:
    “Parncutt to Monckton

    Dear Sir,

    In response to your email I have now posted an unconditional apology at the address of the original text: http://www.uni-graz.at/~parncutt/climatechange.html

    I hereby withdraw, in their entirety, both texts that were previously posted at the above address (dated 25 October 2012 and 25 December 2012 respectively). I apologize for, and deeply regret, any offence that my texts may have caused to you or anyone else.

    Yours sincerely,

    Richard Parncutt”

    http://joannenova.com.au/2012/12/parncutt-death-threat-uni-of-graz-shocked-monckton-gets-it-withdrawn-with-apology-john-cook-says-nothing/#more-26183

  48. From cartoonist Cook to Spooner.

    ‘WELL, so much for the 2012 apocalypse. If the ancient Mayans ever knew anything about the future, they made a serious miscalculation. The same fate has befallen the international climate change emergency brigade. About $1 billion and 18 “Kyoto” meetings later, the world has agreed to do nothing much more than meet again.

    ‘How did this frightening climate threat dissolve into scientific uncertainty and political confusion? What of the many billions of dollars of wasted public resources? Some might blame the “sceptics”, the “merchants of doubt” or the “deniers”. Others point to the global financial crisis.’

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/sceptics-weather-the-storm-to-put-their-case-on-climate-20121228-2bz91.html#ixzz2GQN0wSZR

  49. ‘Thou shall not invoke personal attacks. One of the magical powers blogs and wikis seem to possess is the capability of turning otherwise sensible people into bickering schoolchildren. Unless the discussion subject is “Say something insulting about somebody who holds a different opinion than you,” leave the personal invective out. Rule of thumb: Argue with the post, not the poster.’

    Read more: http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/news/internet/9550/blog-etiquette-top-10-dos–donts/#ixzz2GQtIrTlG

  50. Harping back to the Continental US high temperatures, there is a ‘spurious doubling due to NOAA station siting problems and post measurement adjustments.’

  51. “All too often, scientists muck about with pilot studies, and keep tweaking something until they get the result they were hoping to achieve. Unfortunately, each fresh effort increases the risk of getting the right result for the wrong reason, and winding up with a spurious vision of something that doesn’t turn out to be scientifically robust”

    But its peer reviewed! Surely it must be gospel if it comes from “peer reviewed”….LOL

    http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2012/12/cleaning-up-science.html?mbid=social_retweet

  52. Angst is unfortunate, but acceptable.

    The leftard larrikins here are extremely sensitive to alternative views and can be uncivil at times.

  53. Hi Sparta, the larrikins do tend to draw first blood with well positioned invectives. Thankfully my hide is tough.

  54. “Thankfully my hide is tough”

    It really has to be with this lot…

    “extremely sensitive to alternative views and can be uncivil at times.”

    I think what bothers me more is not their incivility towards me or my ideas but that I get dragged into the mud and find myself partaking in it. I have always found this behavior odd given their “worldview” is always trotted out as the paradigm of “liberty” though history would say otherwise.

    How goes it el gordo; hope you had a nice Christmas….Just finished reading this bit on Dyson. What I found to be the most priceless part was the exchange between him and his wife concerning Al Gore/AGW; not so much his personal opinions which I tend to agree with. Just goes to show that the rest of us sheer mortals stand no chance when such a brilliant mind can not even convince his own wife. But perhaps there in lies the problem!

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/magazine/29Dyson-t.html?pagewanted=all

  55. ” But its peer reviewed! Surely it must be gospel if it comes from “peer reviewed”….LOL”

    You must have meant ‘ Sneer ‘ reviewed? Shmarter.

    I presume you have two dicks Sparta? No one on the planet could be as silly as you playing with one. Ummm perhaps Iain Hall, Treeman, or el loopy, I may have been a bit hasty, I will have another think on it.

  56. Sparta is an ‘historical’ lemming….and with a cliff so imminent :shock: ….. happy gnu’s rear Sparta…. aaarrrrrr……*thud* :lol:

  57. “♣A Kabuki Play

    “What we have, in what passes for US democracy in 2012, is a kabuki play that Cicero put to papyrus 1948 years earlier. All historical empires and war aggressors have used propaganda to claim their looting and police states were necessary and helpful to the 99%. Instead, a sorrowful history tells us they were almost always for the sole benefit of the 1%.” – Albert Bates
    http://collapseofindustrialcivilization.com/

  58. PJ is crass and a total dickhead at times, but in the fullness of time the AGW heretics will be victorious.

    Sadly, global warming stopped last century.

  59. ‘I get dragged into the mud and find myself partaking in it.’

    Yeah, its hard to avoid. Keep in mind they are only human and some (not all) are abysmal.

  60. el gordo,

    Doesn’t surprise me in the least…Nothing like watermelons honoring themselves…They love echo chambers….

  61. “It would seem that the climate change denialists have been successful in getting their message across and resistance to the idea of climate change is increasing”

    Adrian,

    So what does that say when individuals you have always dismissed seem to be making a better argument then yourself; peer-reviewed or not? Science is about robust debate; so start debating and stop dismissing…If your debate wins the day so does your theory…This is the result of declaring “victory” prematurely and refusing to answer the BASIC questions. . As a disciple try not to let ego and “peer review” cloud your judgment for a change…Just saying…

    You have 3 major problems as I see it…
    1) You haven’t shown how this isn’t a “natural” phenomenon as the fossil record has shown to have occurred many times before (even if we accept it is expedited by our activities)
    2) You haven’t shown how even IF we accept the premise it is warming due to our influences said warming is really all that HARMFUL or REVERSIBLE. Just too many “what ifs” and “unknowns”…
    3) Your “camp” was too hasty to push the “tax all” mantra as the ONLY solution. Unfortunately, said solutions do ALL smack of a certain dogma we are all too familiar with. Qatar recently just continued to highlight this…

    Until your “camp” decides to engage in honest debate you will only feed the doubt…So by all means, continue in smug fashion with insults and disregard, clearly that tactic has been working…

  62. ” Climate Science and denial ”

    Indeed. What gives these fools credibility is, that we respond to the prattle of these gormless deniers. When they can’t or wont understand the logic, is all that is left, is to either ignore them, or take the piss out of them. I prefer the latter. I am being quite serious when I say, most of the deniers are indeed barking mad .If it was the left that was in the denialist camp, these right wingnuts would be on the side of the consensus science. For them this isn’t about global warming, it is about their ideology, no more no less. It is failing and they don’t like it.

  63. @PJ

    For them this isn’t about global warming, it is about their ideology, no more no less. It is failing and they don’t like it.

    Since the right abandoned reality as having a “left wing bias”, they must resort to fantasy and delusion as they struggle for relevance.

    They have nothing, and are of course doomed to fail, (as reality always wins the day,). Apparently remaining completely oblivious to this truism, they continue to peddle their long refuted lies and misrepresentations somehow imagining that this somehow constitutes “debate”, rather than being indicative of idiocy and/or delusion..

  64. Until your “camp” decides to engage in honest debate you will only feed the doubt…So by all means, continue in smug fashion with insults and disregard, clearly that tactic has been working…

    Sparta, I see that was addressed to Adrian. Are you sure you didn’t mean el gordo?

  65. ” Since the right abandoned reality as having a “left wing bias”, they must resort to fantasy and delusion as they struggle for relevance ”

    Indeed. As each day passes and more evidence emerges global warming is not only real but speeding up, the right will increase its delusional rhetoric in response.

    This is a great blog, but it is not a place for scientific discussion unless so qualified. Is all the layman can argue is, who in the bona fide scientifici community he thinks, is putting up the best case of either proposition. The case for global warming is, over whelming. Denialist’s have a couple of so qualified people, but the research reveals they are always from some lobbyist group, or in the direct employe of a company so effected by any action to cure the problem.Their whole M.O. is shallower than a moles ball bag. So hence I take the piss out of the idiots, and why not? They deserve it. They are of the same ilk that denounced Galileo, flat earthers.,and most belonging to some fundamentalist religous group or tother.

    Ah right wingers, they do have a way with bullshit.

  66. Sparta doesn’t know the very disingenuous el gordo very well does he. El gordo lost all credibility in the climate change debate a long time ago and in more than one fora.

    This tactic of having a separate AGW discussion topic was borrowed from another blog far more scientific than this one. el gordo kept derailing the threads with nonsense and diversions whilst being wrong on every climate subject raised, same as here. The way they stopped el gordo being a pest was to create an el gordo thread just as has been done here. el gordo can spew forth as much nonsense and discredited guff as they want and we can decide to have discussions here or not.

  67. ‘…borrowed from another blog far more scientific than this one.’

    Deltoid is just a bunch of grumpy, ignorant old men. They actually believe CO2 causes global warming.

    That was a cell created by Timmy Lambert to isolate my heretical views, but it fell off the end into the archives.

    Reb gave me a a thread at The Daily Trash, ostensibly for the same reason, which effectively left me in the cold.

    This blog has provided this thread and unlike TDT its refreshed….and people visit.

    You don’t have to believe in my global cooling meme…. in fact, I hope you remain critical.

  68. Eg and,

    Reb gave me a a thread at The Daily Trash, ostensibly for the same reason, which effectively left me in the cold.

    Shouldn’t that be on the Punday thread? :D

  69. I’m a natural, Min.

    In other energy news…

    ‘There will be 41 operating nuclear power units in China by 2015 or a little later, Zhang Huazhu, chairman of the China Nuclear Energy Association, told a seminar in Zhuhai city of south China’s Guangdong province.

    “At that time, China will be building nearly 20 extra nuclear power plants,” he said at the seminar under the theme of “Nuclear Power and Environment” co-sponsored by two universities in Beijing and Hong Kong.

    ‘China now has six power plants and 15 working nuclear power units, producing nearly 3.5 percent of the world’s total electricity generated by nuclear power, which also accounts for 1.85 percent of China’s total electricity generation.’

    China Daily

  70. I predict the demise of El G on the blogs by as early as 2015 or 2016….. :D
    ” Peter Wadhams, who heads the Polar Ocean Physics Group at the University of Cambridge and who has been measuring Arctic Ocean ice thickness from British Navy submarines, says that earlier calculations about Arctic sea ice loss have grossly underestimated how rapidly the ice is disappearing. He believes that the Arctic is likely to become ice-free before 2020 and possibly as early as 2015 or 2016 — decades ahead of projections made just a few years ago.”
    http://drstevebest.wordpress.com/2012/12/23/arctic-tipping-point-a-north-pole-without-ice/

  71. El Loopy is taking the piss, of that, I am sure. Anyone thinking this planet is cooling is a prime candidate for the nut house. Is El Loopy nuts? You be the judge.

    Or maybe Sparta, Hall, Treeman, and El Loopy are just doing a comedy routine. They’re probably all the same person.

  72. …………6- Will Direct Action remain a mystery?The Coalition’s Direct Action policy presently resembles something akin to the liquid metal shape-shifting assassin from the Terminator 2 movie. It is so vaguely defined that you hate to think how it might get interpreted by the Coalition party room once they get elected.
    How will they define the emission baselines applying to existing and new facilities? What will be the fine for companies exceeding their emission baselines? How exactly would they implement their tender/auctioning scheme and ensure that selected firms deliver the abatement that they promise? And who in the right mind would attempt to “clean-up” Hazelwood when it’s far easier and cheaper to shut it down and replace it with something new?
    Few who know Greg Hunt doubt his sincerity about climate change. The problem is that he’s just one vote in the Cabinet and Coalition Party Room. And who’s to say he’ll be the minister responsible for climate change issues if the Coalition forms government?..

    http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/top-6-questions-2013?&utm_source=exact&utm_medium=email&utm_content=156369&utm_campaign=kgb&modapt=commentary

  73. Cu, it would be likely that Hunt would not get a guernsey on this one as it would go against the grain for Abbott to appoint anyone with any expertise in any field.

  74. el gordo, I am sure it is not beyond the skills of engineers to find ways of making them last longer. Things are improving all the time.

  75. Although….now that its been picked up by the msm it will become a political issue now.

    ‘Wind farms have just half the useful lifespan which has been claimed, according to new research which found they start to wear out after just 12 years.

    ‘A study of almost 3,000 turbines in Britain – the largest of its kind – sheds doubt on manufacturers claims that they generate clean energy for up to 25 years, which is used by the Government to calculate subsidies.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2254901/Wind-turbines-half-long-previously-thought-study-shows-signs-wearing-just-12-years.html#ixzz2GcMzDeHC
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  76. Why bad investment. Like all things, it can be improved. Who is to say, fifteen years is not bad,

    Like all things, over a period of time, better ways are found.

    I think it might be a beat-up.

    The story does not make much sense.

  77. PS. Like all technology, it has also become cheaper. You are talking about old technology, not what is available today.

  78. ‘Meanwhile Die Welt reports today that German consumers are fed up with the high prices of electricity, and are now loudly demanding a course correction with renewable energy.

    ‘The solutions to the problem now being proposed, however, are almost as lunatic as the idea of trying to power the country with renewable energy in the first place. Germany’s communist PDS party for example is calling for giving consumers incentives to purchase new, energy-efficient appliances. You see, consumers can solve their problem of not having enough money by simply forking out lots of money for new white goods. Make sense?

    ‘Another brilliant solution proposed by Greens and leftists is to force industry to pay more for electricity, and thus allow lower rates for little consumers. Of course the masterminds behind that idea still have not thought about what industry will do with the higher prices they’ll have to pay for their power. You don’t suppose they’d get the idea to pass the extra costs along to the consumers, do you?’

    P.Gosselen (No Tricks Zone)

  79. Happy New Year! Thank you Bob Carter, Martin Durkin, Nigel Calder, Richard Lindzen, Bill Kinnimonth, Paul Reiter, Freeman Dyson, Joanne Nova and John Spooner who have all contributed to sceptics weathering the storm to put their case on climate.

    Whisperers should read the article in The Age today. There are lessons for group thinkers here…

    “In the climate debate, the only “judge” is the scientific method – a testable hypothesis followed by factual or experimental challenge. The “facts” here represent an anxious problem for the DAGW advocates. For example, everybody agrees that the warming trend paused 16 years ago, despite a corresponding 10 per cent increase in atmospheric CO2. This ought to be an embarrassment to the global warming alarmists. What exactly is the relationship between CO2 and temperature? Why did the warming trend stop as it did between 1945 and 1975, when CO2 emissions took off?
    As Dr David Whitehouse, the former BBC online science editor, said in the New Statesman in 2007, “something else is happening to the climate and it is vital we find out what or we may spend hundreds of billions of pounds needlessly”. Obviously we should pay close attention to the computer models that form the basis of climate scientists’ projections. In fact these models apparently failed to anticipate the current pause in global warming, not to mention the abundance of post-drought rainfall in Australia. Scientific “consensus” based on these computer models is becoming rather shaky…I trust the integrity and compassion of these “deniers”, and admire their courage and awesome perseverance. We hope the book will help redress the imbalance in easily accessible knowledge for a “jury” of ordinary Australians”

    Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/sceptics-weather-the-storm-to-put-their-case-on-climate-20121228-2bz91.html#ixzz2GfPN9P6W

  80. Silicon Valley’s investment wizards are fleeing the so-called green economy, and not a moment too soon for American prosperity. As painful as the era of enviro-investing has been for taxpayers and shareholders, there’s an emerging silver lining. It’s likely that in 2013 fewer people will spend their time trying to turn political projects into companies. –The Wall Street Journal, 28 December 2012

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323401904578159660625274422.html

  81. ‘Here is a bit of good news. Carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions are projected to remain flat for the next three decades without federal caps on greenhouse gas emissions.

    ‘The U.S. Energy Information Administration‘s (EIA) Annual Energy Outlook (AEO) for 2013 shows annual CO2 emissions remaining more than 5% percent below the 2005 level until 2040.’

    Forbes

    I blame shale gas and a downturn in the US economy for CO2 remaining flat.

  82. Would it be possible that the ten or so states that have a price on carbon emissions is also contributing to the lesser expected emissions over the next few years.

  83. Doubt that CU… its the shale gas revolution.

    China has only recently discovered they have the world’s largest reserves of this gas, which they will exploit.

    So within a decade, because of the economic downturn and fracking, human induced CO2 should be reduced markedly without a punitive tax in China or America.

  84. Of course the transfer to shale gas is not the result of government action, both stae and federally.

  85. Now they are reduced to talking about the weather.

    Weather by the way, that was predicted under man made climate change to be at the extremes.

    Yes, extremes, whether hot or cold. Whether dry or wet.

    Whether on land, or in the oceans.

    All we seem to get now, is extreme weather conditions.

  86. Record breaking cold, they haven’t seen this for decades, but of course if it was record breaking heat the msm would be full of it.

    Extreme weather comes with global cooling.

  87. If you say so tree. Of course you are the font of all knowledge even if you have to keep your head in the sand to get around the facts.

    Wonder why you do not bother, to point out where I am wrong.

    Suspect, that you have no idea. Just throw away lines that mean naught.

    Very clever, one must agree,

  88. Catching up
    JANUARY 1, 2013 @ 11:41 AM
    “Now they are reduced to talking about the weather.

    Weather by the way, that was predicted under man made climate change to be at the extremes. Yes, extremes, whether hot or cold. Whether dry or wet.
    Whether on land, or in the oceans.
    All we seem to get now, is extreme weather conditions”

    As said earlier CU, you’re well out of your depth. Think about what you just wrote…no let me take you through it step by step for the gullible….

    Firstly you make the statement that we (sceptics) are reduced to talking about the weather. You then proceed to talk about weather yourself…weather that was predicted under man made climate change to be precise.

    If you had an ounce of knowledge about the subject you would know that the blaming of extreme weather on AGW has been soundly debunked. Realizing the difficulty in selling “Global Warming” when the globe hasn’t warmed in the last 16 years, the Warmists are now attempting to convince the public that CO2 has somehow caused “Extreme Weather”. This “Extreme Weather” meme follows a number of other ill-fated Warmist narratives including “Climate Change“, “Ocean Acidification”, “Global Weirding” and “Climate Disruption”.You can read all about extreme weather here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/reference-pages/climatic-phenomena-pages/extreme-weather-page/

  89. @ treetroll

    on what grounds do you dismiss the science involved, and criticise SKS ? Just doing what you were told ?

    For one who has repeatedly demonstrated his ignorance, I see you are also unable to learn (a predictable consequence of a closed mind). If you can manage to dispute the science, feel free to do so with facts and research, and your opinions, may achieve credibility.

    Given that you are certainly unable to do so, you need to support your “dismissal” of SKS.

    Reality does not conform to ideology, and ideology does not provide a rational basis for making decisions concerning the nature of reality. Something you would do well to learn.

  90. Forget the ideology and politics, natural climate change will kill hundreds of people every week this NH winter.

  91. Wow eg, that’s one of the most explicit efforts to introduce a “strawman” I’ve seen.
    I guess that’s all you have when you know reality (and, to date our most effective method of discerning its nature, science ) are against you :lol:

    On an AGW thread too :lol:

  92. pterosaur1

    “on what grounds do you dismiss the science involved, and criticise SKS ? Just doing what you were told ?”

    You must be kidding! Firstly no-one tells me what to do and secondly you just have to look at the level of comment at SKS…it’s a dead duck!

    then SKS crew, Nuccitelli, Way, Painting, Church and Cook have been found wanting more than once and most recently by Roger Pielke Sr.
    http://pielkeclimatesci.wordpress.com/2012/11/12/publication-of-reply-to-comment-on-ocean-heat-content-and-earths-radiation-imbalance-ii-relation-to-climate-shifts-by-nuccitelli-et-al-by-douglass-an/

    The fact that SKS have failed to criticise University of Graz Musicology professor Parncutt’s death threat for climate sceptics is evidence enough for me.

  93. “Climate skeptics typically take a few small pieces of the puzzle to debunk global warming, and ignore the whole picture that the larger science community sees by looking at all the pieces,” said Ignatius G. Rigor, a climate scientist at the Polar Science Center of the University of Washington in Seattle.

    On the other hand climate deniers just take any shit and scam they think conforms to their very closed minded view.

    But Dr. Michaels said that those now trumpeting global cooling should beware of doing the same thing, saying that the “predictable distortion” of extreme weather “goes in both directions.”

    Gavin A. Schmidt, a climatologist at NASA’s Goddard Institute for Space Studies in Manhattan who has spoken out about the need to reduce greenhouse gases, disagrees with Dr. Michaels on many issues, but concurred on this point.

    “When I get called by CNN to comment on a big summer storm or a drought or something, I give the same answer I give a guy who asks about a blizzard,” Dr. Schmidt said. “It’s all in the long-term trends. Weather isn’t going to go away because of climate change. There is this desire to explain everything that we see in terms of something you think you understand, whether that’s the next ice age coming or global warming.”

  94. Alex Rawls writes “Dana (SKS Nuccitelli) is a poster child for those who feel a moral imperative to “believe the scientists”

    I guess that makes him a whisperers poster child…up there with Gillard at Woodstock er Woodford with the hippies.

  95. ” Firstly no-one tells me what to do ”

    PRETTY GOOD AT TELLING OTHERS WHAT TO DO, ARE WE NOT.

  96. Tree, those at Woodstock have the same value vote you have.

    I still go with the majority, especially if they Are 97% of the experts worldwide.

  97. Rigor
    “Climate skeptics typically take a few small pieces of the puzzle to debunk global warming, and ignore the whole picture that the larger science community sees by looking at all the pieces,”

    Rigor would say that, he’s on the ropes.

    “On the other hand climate deniers just take any shit and scam they think conforms to their very closed minded view.”

    Mobius would say that because he’s full of it himself!

  98. Ahh the 97% once again from the gullible CU. It’s not 97% at all. The figure was derived from the Doran paper, where a survey of 10,256 with 3146 respondents was whittled down to 75 out of 77 “expert” ’active climate researchers’ (ACR) to give the 97% figure, based on just two very simplistic (shallow) questions that even the majority of sceptics might agree with. Lawrence Soloman made one of many critiques of the Doran Paper here and offers a very good summary, some other reviews here, here and here.

    GULLIBLE!

  99. Dr Michaels is correct, the sceptics look on this cool deviation as a ‘break point’, similar to the 1940s to early 1970′s and further back in regular cycles.

    Some kitchen table science buffs take it more seriously and point to the signs of another mini ice age, where temperatures will fall by a degree and cause massive disruption. Corbyn pushes this line.

    Nobody knows for sure where we are heading and…. its the glorious uncertainty which makes it so exciting.

  100. ‘There are no weather records of the extremes of weather for 99% of the last 10,000 years. The evidence from the Greenland ice strongly indicates that when the earth is cold the weather is crazy beyond anything we see today with inconceivably large temperature swings back and forth in very short periods of time. This indicates enormous extremes of weather.’

    Art Horn (channeling Icecap)

  101. Fuck no wonder I don’t post in here…Treeman is so scientific, you can hear his knuckles scraping on the ground. His bullshit alone should be prosecuted by the EPA as his carbon footprint is beyond current technologies measurable limits
    What an inane tiresome bore :roll:

  102. As they haven’t got the science to back them up the denialists talk from their arses. The examples of it pepper this thread.

    No, Global Warming Hasn’t ‘Stopped’

    It is said that there is nothing new under the Sun, and the denialist argument that there has been no warming since 1997 or 1998 is an oft-repeated one. We’ve addressed it here several times, notably back in 2009 when ‘Washington Post’ columnist George Will was repeating it a great deal.

    Top 5 Surprises From Climate Change: Photos

    When we began our study, we felt that skeptics had raised legitimate issues, and we didn’t know what we’d find. Our results turned out to be close to those published by prior groups. We think that means that those groups had truly been very careful in their work, despite their inability to convince some skeptics of that. They managed to avoid bias in their data selection, homogenization and other corrections. Global warming is real. Perhaps our results will help cool this portion of the climate debate.

    But it doesn’t stop the deniers here ignoring the science and jumping on ever scam and non-scientific piece of crap to stroke their own ideologically closed minds and that of the other deniers.

    Did Global Warming Really Stop in 1997?

    The Reality of Climate Change: 10 Myths Busted Of course the closed minded deniers here will continue with their myths and falsehoods. Like their beloved Liberals lies and deceits are the only way they know to get their very flawed messages across, meaning their messages are bilgewater.

    Stories that you will never see them post here because there about the hottest events: The Hottest Climate Change Stories of 2012

    As they have nothing but bullshit they are disingenuous in posting nothing but weather events, but not a balance of weather events, just very select weather events and no guess what types they post. Because of this and either posting no credible sources or from sources that have been discredited then they have no credibility in this debate.

    Science for them to ignore as they always do” No, global warming hasn’t stopped. Of course they will continue to state the factors that have been scientifically discounted, facts are never going to stop them speaking from their arses.

    Science is an anathema to them, they need to smoother it in bullshit and misdirection at every turn. What has global warming done since 1998?

    No, Global Warming Hasn’t Stopped

    No, Global Warming Hasn’t ‘Stopped’

    “Global Warming Has Stopped”? How to Fool People Using “Cherry-Picked” Climate Data

    The problem with this argument is that it is false: global warming has not stopped and those who repeat this claim over and over are either lying, ignorant, or exhibiting a blatant disregard for the truth.

    No matter how many times they say it has stopped, with not a single piece of credited scientific evidence to back it, the globe continues to warm regardless. They are proved fallacious by the very thing they deny is happening.

  103. @Mo

    They are proved fallacious by the very thing they deny is happening.

    Indeed.

    Typically, the treetroll evidently imagines that SHOUTING lends it credibility. :lol:
    No more than does its reflexive hatred of reality based criticism.

    I guess it just shits it that those greenies and eggheads are right, and as it is unable and unwilling to face this awful realisation, has chosen denialism as a means of self affirmation more palatable than having to deal with reality. :lol:

  104. Thing is with these hypocrites peterosaur if the right wing think tanks, the ones that tell them how to think so the name is apt, had come out and said the science was valid and AGW real whilst the left questioned it, they would be jumping up and down stridently claiming AGW is real and those opposing it are deniers.

    They are just vacuous vessels mindlessly repeating the lies and crap the right tell them to.

  105. Nobody knows for sure where we are heading and…. its the glorious uncertainty which makes it so exciting.

    What an amoral fuckwit!

  106. ” just vacuous vessels mindlessly repeating the lies and crap…”

    Sounds just like Möbius Ecko…

    “What an amoral fuckwit!”

    Sounds just like a silkworm!

  107. Right wingers are notoriously incapable of thinking for themselves. That’s why their media bulges over with shock jocks, think tanks, Bolts, Akermans, Uhlmanns etc telling the morons what to think. All singing from the same Liberal songsheet, to make sure nothing gets between the morons and Liberal propaganda.

    RWFs are the infants of the intellectual world. Every day they line up with their bibs on to be spoonfed their opinions. If you query their rubbish out comes a babble of slogans and learned talking points. Very much like toddlers at a certain stage of development are able to recite a handful of acquired words and phrases and not much more.

  108. ‘amoral fuckwit!’

    Dispassionate would be closer to reality.

    I’m not concerned about your global warming theory, while people are freezing to death from the cold.

  109. Well that was one of the lamest comebacks I’ve read on this blog, and all the top previous ones have also been by Treeman. Repeat a line from a post and throw it back at the poster and then for good measure at another as well. That’s primary school boy stuff.

    Shit a lot of brain power and hard thinking went into that comeback. Must have strained the addled brain cell to bursting point. In fact about as much effort went into that as normally goes into the climate denial posts, that is not very much at all.

  110. …or dying of heat strokes and heat related complications el gordo, or indeed due to the effects of man made global warming.

    Again you are being very disingenuous in what you chose to portray and because of that you have no credibility in this debate.

  111. @eg
    you should learnthe difference between weather and cimate if you are seeking credibility you know :grin:

    @cuppa

    Right wingers are notoriously incapable of thinking for themselves

    Its telling, if rather funny when they get the timing wrong on one of their talking points lies as happened recently wrt to their lrecent claims about the classification of CO2 as a pollutant.

    RWFs are the infants of the intellectual world.

    and @ Mo,

    That’s primary school boy stuff.

    .

    While I agree substantially with these conclusions, there is an important difference between “infants”, “primary school boy(s)” and the denialist trolls, in that the former are keen to learn, in clear contrast contrast to the trolls.

  112. ‘Climates are changing because our Earth is warming, according to the research of scientists.’

    That is complete nonsense.

  113. Cuppa
    JANUARY 1, 2013 @ 7:12 PM
    Right wingers are notoriously incapable of thinking for themselves. That’s why their media bulges over with shock jocks, think tanks, Bolts, Akermans, Uhlmanns etc telling the morons what to think. All singing from the same Liberal songsheet, to make sure nothing gets between the morons and Liberal propaganda.

    RWFs are the infants of the intellectual world. Every day they line up with their bibs on to be spoonfed their opinions. If you query their rubbish out comes a babble of slogans and learned talking points. Very much like toddlers at a certain stage of development are able to recite a handful of acquired words and phrases and not much more.

    What a load of shit and it’s in your nappy Cuppa whoever you are!

  114. Lew’s ‘research focuses on the role of scepticism in memory updating and the distinction between scepticism and denial.’

    joker

  115. ‘A RECORD-SETTING heatwave is expected to grip a huge area of the continent over the next week, pushing temperatures above 40C for days on end in regional centres across NSW, Victoria and South Australia.’

    The Oz

  116. And quick as a flash the msm has picked up on it… this is the power of the fifth estate.

    ‘In the paper, researchers credit an ocean phenomenon, called the Decadal Oscillation, with bringing colder surface water temperatures and thus beginning the overall cooling effect.

    ‘This oscillation has brought a weakening of the Aleutian Low, the breeding ground for storms that end up regulating weather systems in the rest of the 48 states. With a less active Aleutian Low, cold winter storms have been sticking around Alaska longer and keeping the temperatures chilly.

    ‘This climate shift could shed new light on the long feared impact of dangerous greenhouse gases causing a rise in the average temperature of Earth’s atmosphere and the thawing of arctic glaciers and sea ice.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256188/What-global-warming-Alaska-headed-ice-age-scientists-report-states-steady-temperature-decline.html#ixzz2Gqrj789p
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  117. “Good Gas, Bad Gas”

    That is like “Panicked Greenie, Lunatic Greenie” but much the same I am afraid like our NATURAL OCCURING GAS…Perhaps they are on to something that might explain why we have had many warming events in the past without mankind outside of solar phenomenon; hmm. I think you guys should start worrying about the continuous shifting of the tectonic plates next and how we are contributing to volcanic eruptions ergo more warming. Perhaps we can find a way to tax soot? No, maybe we can just find a way to tax “hot air”? From your link Einstein;

    “the methane released by its decomposition would not substantially affect the Earth’s climate”

    But more importantly…

    “But he urged caution in speculating about potential geohazards that might result from decomposition of methane hydrate deposits. “We don’t have proof in the geological record that any of that has ever happened before,” he says.”

    Yes I would agree there Sir, gross speculation is a tool of the paranoid and we don’t have PROOF of much in the way of the geological record, just theory that suggests immediate TAXATION so said tax revenue can go to anything but what it is intended to combat and justify ushering in a new half assed attempt at ill concieved governance. We don’t know much I am afraid.

    http://atoc.colorado.edu/~dcn/reprints/Overpeck_etal_EOS2005.pdf

    “Despite 30 years of warming and ice loss, the Arctic cryosphere is still within the envelope of glacial-interglacial cycles that have characterized the past 800,000 years. However, although the Arctic is still not as warm as it was during the Eemian interglacial 125,000 years ago [e.g., Andersen et al., 2004], the present rate of sea ice loss will likely push the system out of this natural envelope within a century. Climate models corroborate this projection with depictions of sea-ice-free summers within the same time frame [Arctic Climate Impact Assessment, 2005]. There is no paleoclimatic evidence for a seasonally ice free Arctic during the last 800 millennia.”

    Hmm, so the author of this piece fully acknowledges the Arctic is actually cooler than it has been in centuries past as many others have? Oh no, we only have 100 years to act before we are looking at the end of the world as we know it! Better tax, quick!

    You guys wonder why your having difficulty selling this….LMAO

  118. ” You guys wonder why your having difficulty selling this….LMAO ‘

    Where have you been Shmarter ? It is already sold. …. LMAO.

    You should get with the program Shmarter, G.W. is not only a reality, but what’s more, it’s getting worse. So you can put up all the non scientific bollocks you like for us to read, it won’t mean Jack Shit.

    All that research and still losing the debate, have you thought about doing something else, like growing carrots, or runner beans? Try your hand at Tiddelywinks, I’m sure you’ll love it. It is quite therapeutic I believe, they use it in asylums to keep the inmates occupied.

  119. “All that research and still losing the debate,”

    Ah, right on time; my favorite watermelon P.J. with his usual enlightening comments…HAHAHAHAH.

    Do try to keep up PJ, from Mobious; at least he is “awake”…

    http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/latenightlive/climate2c-science-and-denial/4415652

    “Last year’s annual Lowey Institute Poll showed a steep fall in the number of Australians who believe that climate change is a serious problem that needs immediate attention. The number of respondents wanting to see action on climate change has fallen 27 percentage points over the last five years. In the United States polling found that in 2007, 73 per cent of Americans said they believed that climate change was caused by continued combustion of fossil fuels. By 2011 that percentage had dropped to 41 per cent. It would seem that the climate change denialists have been successful in getting their message across and resistance to the idea of climate change is increasing. But what’s this denialism all about and where does it come from? Originally broadcast on 30/7/12.”

    You guys are LOSING the debate “peer-reviewed” and all…LOL. Again, just keep dismissing and throwing insults and not engaging; keeps you guys nice and distracted. It is much like a person who refuses to respond in a debate. If a charge that is made has a fundamental basis in reality and is not addressed audience members tend to think there is some TRUTH…Doubt is as powerful a motivator to do nothing as paranoia is to do too much.

  120. The ABC is a disgrace and by fkn christ they will pay for this distortion of reality.

    ‘It would seem that the climate change denialists have been successful in getting their message across and resistance to the idea of climate change is increasing. But what’s this denialism all about and where does it come from?’

    The Denialati believe in climate change, just not the watermelon variety.

  121. “The Denialati believe in climate change, just not the watermelon variety.”

    Agreed!

  122. On Denialism

    The normal academic response to an opposing argument is to engage with it, testing the strengths and weaknesses of the differing views, in the expectations that the truth will emerge through a process of debate. However, this requires that both parties obey certain ground rules, such as a willingness to look at the evidence as a whole, to reject deliberate distortions and to accept principles of logic. A meaningful discourse is impossible when one party rejects these rules.

    One such rejection is exampled by those who continually attempt to revisit previously refuted arguments, for instance by insisting that CO2 is harmless and should not be classed as a pollutant.

    Of course, if the trolls actally wish to engage then perhaps they should consider the reality we all face irrespective of belief,

  123. “by insisting that CO2 is harmless and should not be classed as a pollutant”

    Only NOW that CO2 is to be classified as a pollutant in the context of global warming point A (prior to this it was only known as a trace gas essential for all plant life on this planet as normally found). Only to believe in accepting the concept that global warming is HARMFUL to mankind point B (fossil record points to an abundance of life in all recorded times before where warming was more so then projected in the future). Only to accept that without a doubt we are the cause of said warming independent of all other known factors point C.

  124. “they should consider the reality we all face irrespective of belief”

    There is nothing on said list that is not supposition based on said original THEORY; nothing which can not be alleviated by means other than PANIC and TAXATION…In your logic we have the power to predict the weather a 100 years out but not tomorrow? We have the power to KNOW climate and all it entails but not the ability to prepare for any “possible”? You are a contradiction my friend….

  125. From pet’s wiki link…

    ‘Scientific inquiry is generally intended to be as objective as possible in order to reduce biased interpretations of results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, giving them the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established (when data is sampled or compared to chance).’

    The sceptics argue, quite convincingly, the klimatariat cannot reproduce (in a real world environment) what the models have been predicting.

    Massive Fail

  126. @ sparta

    (fossil record points to an abundance of life in all recorded times before where warming was more so then projected in the future).

    perhaps you missed the fact that humanity did not exist when the fossil records formed ? Then again, you are in denial of reality, so I suppose I shouldn’t really expect you to engage honestly?

    If you actually wish to engage then you need to support your assertions with facts and evidence rather than shouting THEORY as if that somehow constitutes argument.
    Perhaps you are trying to indicate that because of the provisional nature of theory, it should be discarded ? Scientific theory comprises the best understanding we have to date of the processes and nature of reality., and theories are discarded only as more accurate explanations are found. The denialists remain unable to provide any such explanation, instead proposing that the continued reiteration of long discredited, fallacious reasoning and lies constitutes “debate”

    Of course when you reveal your total ignorance of thenature and driving forces behind AGW by claiming of me

    In your logic we have the power to predict the weather a 100 years out but not tomorrow? We have the power to KNOW climate and all it entails but not the ability to prepare for any “possible”? You are a contradiction my friend….

    despite my never having made such a claim. I’m pretty sure that constitutes as a Strawman another fallacious argument. :roll:

  127. I don’t see much point in cherry picking isolated weather events in an attempt to prove one thing or another. Though I’m at a loss as to how Andrew Bolt & his ilk are going to use our current local weather to prove it’s all ok. What’s more important is that, if I understand them correctly, experts are predicting extreme weather events as a result of a gradual warming. And the weather is getting more extreme it seems.
    As our spinning ball warms up the water on it can’t go anywhere else, it just stays around & does different things. Droughts here, floods there as new & nasty weather patterns form.
    But Tony Abbott’s going to plant some trees, so I s’pose it’s all a bit of a non event?

  128. ‘ …experts are predicting extreme weather events as a result of a gradual warming. And the weather is getting more extreme it seems.’

    Al Gore is an expert and the one who started this meme with ‘Dirty Weather’ out of his cable TV network.

    Anthony Watts ran counter to him on another TV station.

    Now we have full blown weather wars….

  129. El gordo, while we all swelter here in Australia we are sooooo relieved to learn it’s snowing in Siberia.

    Oh how you give us hope.

  130. Now we have full blown weather wars….

    No we don’t, we have an once vice-president presenting scientific fact, and a failed weatherman feeding chooks. There is no ‘war’, except the mind of chooks perhaps

  131. Lovo wander back up the thread and you’ll see that is all changing, mass balance will soon return to Alaskan glaciers if the decade long cool trend continues.

    ‘Can we thus expect our island continent to be covered in snow later this year?’

    Only the Alps and another excellent ski season.

  132. ‘There is no ‘war’….

    Its on the blogosphere, so its only a matter of time before the msm join in.

    ‘once vice-president presenting scientific fact’

    The fat one knows shit about CC, he’s a snake oil salesman.

  133. The fat one knows shit about CC, he’s a snake oil salesman.

    Well well look whose calling the kettle black. If it fits where it el gordo, you more than anyone have absolutely no credibility in the climate change debate as you don’t debate climate at all. Even as a scatter gun cherry picking weather poster you’re hopeless.

  134. El G, I was think’n of going to Bathurst ….. and I do like ‘the black stuff’ ….. funnier things have happened……. mayhap and begorrah :D

  135. My cherry picking has been consistent and balanced.

    Hobart has a very warm day, looking back to 1976 and then late 19th century the same weather patterns were in place to create a record breaking hot day.

    You may not be aware that 1976 was the year of the Great Climate Shift, out of the blue temperatures began to rise after a 30 year cooling trend.

    So I’m suggesting that this phenomenon only happens when south-eastern Australia is in a cooling trend.

  136. ‘…funnier things have happened……. mayhap and begorrah’

    Its a good Irish pub with reasonable food… perhaps after the CC wars draw to a close around 2020.

  137. Thanks el gordo, I’m sure that we’d all appreciate it and that you will be hugely successful in this endeavour. :)

  138. ;-) Practicing irony without a crutch. Poe’s Law rules, but in small tight-knit communities its possible to create an environment where wit is sublime and dry as a bone.

    Reb will be back in a few days.

  139. You keep proving your lack of credibility on this subject el gordo.

    …that you will be hugely successful in this endeavour.

    Might be successful in something. Certainly isn’t in debating climate change, politics and just about everything else.

  140. In the UK everyone is talking weather….

    ‘Professor Julia Slingo, chief scientist at the Met Office, said: ‘The trend towards more extreme rainfall events is one we are seeing around the world, in countries such as India and China, and now potentially here in the UK.

    ‘It’s essential we look at how this may affect rainfall patterns over the next decade and beyond, so we can advise on the frequency of extreme weather in the future and the potential for more surface and river flooding.’

    ‘Annual rainfall increased by 5 per cent in the 30-year period between 1981-2010 when compared to 1961-1990. But last year alone, the average rainfall was up 15 per cent.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2256919/UK-weather-Extreme-rain-fact-life-say-forecasters.html#ixzz2H05cgyLG
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  141. “perhaps you missed the fact that humanity did not exist when the fossil records formed ?”

    Oh dear god, honestly why do I bother…Most “scientist” use a time period of 10,000 years or more in defining what is a “fossil” for your info…Saying we weren’t around then Einstein? Not sure what humanity has to do with Climate Change (formerly global warming) other than it has been going on long before we were around and in mankinds earliest history? Perhaps you might have read this issue of Scientific America?

    http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssue&ISSUEID_CHAR=027DAF29-237D-9F22-E859FBC0D68CAFF9

    “THEORY as if that somehow constitutes argument.”

    What? Ok, we have had previous ice ages, all ending via warming periods NOT CAUSED BY MAN.. . Is this fact or my THEORY? By most “SCIENTIFIC” accounts it is around 5. Care to check?

  142. “Scientific theory comprises the best understanding we have to date of the processes and nature of reality., and theories are discarded only as more accurate explanations are found.”

    Umm, yes…I agree with you, perhaps you missed our last exchange on this topic?

    http://cafewhispers.wordpress.com/2012/12/09/the-el-gordo-effect/#comments

    @ 1:31am Dec 12th? Well aware of how it works thank you…Don’t remember a time before when such a “theory” had so much riding on something so difficult to REPRODUCE with so many admitted UNKNOWNS/variables, can you? Where I begin to question the new “Scientific Method”…

    “We found that the uncertainties obtained when we compare model simulations with observations are significantly larger than what the ensemble bounds would appear to suggest,” said ORNL’s Auroop R. Ganguly, the study’s lead author.

    Hmm…Models to test Models…gotta love it…

    http://phys.org/news175361982.html

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2011/08/03/nasa-data-pit-scientific-method-against-climate-astrology/

    The piece below is pretty much our debate here in a nut shell. However, I would pay attention to when it goes from “objective” to “subjective” in short order. In essence, the author says “ok, yes we are relying on models to predict climate for us, lots of uncertainty which is getting more uncertain as we learn more but regardless, we have enough information from these same models to suggest we do something NOW”. You don’t see a problem with that logic? It is the basis of AGW theory and what our reaction to it should be? It all comes down to this piece for me in many ways in terms of the “THEORY”. What our response should and shouldn’t be and why is a different discussion.

    http://www.geog.ucl.ac.uk/files/news-events/Maslin-2012-Nature.pdf

    Garbage in, garbage out……

  143. “AGW theory is pseudo science.”

    I wouldn’t go that far but I would suggest that it needs more vigorous debate…I am not talking about “whether it is warming” (or not); most reasonable skeptics simply want a rational discussion about “cause in effect” in a historical context; policy implementation that makes sense etc. which is hard to come by now days.

    Debate is over, now we must tax to save ourselves…Sorry, never going get anywhere with that one…

  144. “Don’t bring any clothes. You won’t need them – it’s too hot.”

    I am from AZ Migs; standard uniform is flip-flops, shorts and shirt (35-46 Celsius not uncommon in the summer here, as you know)…Lots of sunscreen….heheheh…But yes, I will be getting down there some day; my dream destination…Done Europe, some of Southeast Asia but really want to see Australia…Plan on overstaying my visa as well…LOL

    Go to bed already!!!!

  145. Found this at Science Daily and to my way of thinking it doesn’t leave much room….CO2 doesn’t cause global warming otherwise Randwick would be under water.

    Jan. 2, 2013 — ‘By comparing reconstructions of atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) concentrations and sea level over the past 40 million years, researchers based at the National Oceanography Centre, Southampton have found that greenhouse gas concentrations similar to the present (almost 400 parts per million) were systematically associated with sea levels at least nine metres above current levels.’

  146. And everything else that may have affected climate, weather, and sea levels back then was exactly as it is today – Oh PULEASE – you really aren’t that thick are you el gordo?

  147. ‘According to the study, sea level stays more or less constant for CO2 changes between 400 and 650 parts per million and it is only for CO2 levels above 650 parts per million that the researchers again saw a strong sea level response for a given CO2 change.’

  148. You really are a despicable waste of oxygen, aren’t you el gordo?

    It’s why I no longer engage. The one sentence assertions of nonsense, the posting of links to images of graphs with no context, rare sources that don’t contend what is asserted and the constant dribble about cold weather.

    There was never any credibility, but as long as you engage you give oxygen, which is all that is craved. Don’t give oxygen.

    Weather? Weather! Weather… weather weather weather.

  149. You’re right Mö – the detestable, disingenuous piece of c#@p isn’t worth wasting effort on :roll:

  150. ‘We live today possibly near the end of the most recent interglacial, the Holocene, or the 11,715 years since we melted our way out of the last glacial, the Wisconsin Ice Age, the interglacial in which all of human civilization has occurred.

    ‘Five of the last six interglacials have each lasted about half a precession cycle. The precession cycle itself varies between 19,000 and 23,000 years and we are close to the 23kyr point now, making 11,715 years about half……..which is why this discussion has relevance.

    ‘So when will the Holocene end?’

    William F McClenney

  151. ‘…any old link will do, oh guffaw ‘

    When CC is no longer an issue I’ll be needing a new portfolio not yet exploited.

  152. John Cook is also a cartoonist and I thought Fairfax was on your side, the world’s going to rack and ruin.

    A reminder, weather is not necessarily climate unless we have a trend.

  153. Catching up
    JANUARY 5, 2013 @ 1:02 PM
    el gordo, the waterline below Randwick Racecourse is only inches below the surface,

    Surely you mean the water table?

    For your information the Botany aquifer monitoring at 12 bores shows minimum depths from .29 to 6.46 meter below ground level. The two bores showing the lowest minimum depth are at Green square and Sydney park.

    http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/council/documents/OnExhibition/DecentralisedWaterMasterPlan/RecycledWaterAppendixE_F.pdf

    Inches below the surface at Randwick? The bore hole closest to Randwick Racecourse shows a range of between .75m and 4.6m below ground level.

    Facts CU not dreams!

  154. Yes the water table. So what. Just a thro0w away line, being a little sarcastic at much of the rot written here.

    You mob take yourselves so seriously.. Why do you get your pants in such a knot when the majority do not agree with you?

  155. Yep it sure is. Beats getting upset and being taken in by those with little knowledge and own agenda.

    Enyoy your illusions but do not expect others to be so gullible,.

  156. The UK Met cannot predict the season ahead.

    ‘Predictions for UK-mean precipitation for December and December-January-February show a slight shift towards below-normal values – consistent with negative North Atlantic Oscillation conditions – although the spread of probabilities is large. Consequently, for the season as a whole the chance of above-average totals remains significant.

    ‘The probability that UK precipitation for December-January-February will fall into the driest of our five categories is between 20% and 25% and the probability that it will fall into the wettest category is around 15% …’

  157. El G, constant BS, constantly proven to be BS “However, other ‘sceptics’ ignored Dr Lu’s statement and instead continued to propagate the misrepresentation of his work, with the Global Warming Policy Foundation reproducing on its website……”
    “…This article then bounced into the offices of the Daily Mail, a UK newspaper which has been energetically promoting unscientific views about climate change ever since its editor, Paul Dacre, was lobbied over lunch by Nigel Lawson, the chair of the ‘sceptic’ campaign group, the Global Warming Policy Foundation.”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/bob-ward/another-researcher-falls-_b_1396044.html

  158. Its offal,… El G…. why do you persist in such obvious BS :???: :roll:
    Treeman, It must be a right pain having to move your balls out of the way every time you want to see :D .. ay dickhead :lol:

  159. ‘Many climate change ‘sceptics’, including Anthony Watts, are obsessed with the Medieval Warm Period. They believe that if irrefutable evidence can be found that the warm period in the northern hemisphere about 1,000 years ago can be shown to have occurred across the world, it will prove that the recent rise in global average temperature over the past few decades cannot be attributed to greenhouse gas emissions from human activities such as burning fossil fuels.

    ‘This is, of course, an intellectually feeble line of reasoning. Just because the Earth has experienced previous warming periods due to ‘natural factors’, such as oscillations in the Earth’s orbit around the Sun, that does not mean that the current period of warming must also be natural. It is the equivalent of arguing that humans are not responsible for the recent increase in loss of animal and plant species on Earth because previous extinction events were caused by ‘natural’ factors, such as meteorite impacts.’

    Bob Ward

    A shallow view of the world.

  160. Also does not mean that the experts and those in the trade could also be wrong.

    Maybe someone could tell us why the majority, in fact well over 90% of the worlds scientist and those engage in working with the climate, would enter this conspiracy.

    I can see why those putting the opposite view might, as they are in the employ of those who have most to lose from global warming, man made by excessive emission of carbon,

  161. Just one question, How long did it take them previous periods of cooling and warming to occur.

    How does that compare with what is happening now.

    I suspect you cannot show any evidence that what is occurring now, has any resemblance to what has occurred in the time. None at all.

    What is happening, is above what happens naturally.

    Do you really expect us to believe that those who have spent their lives involved in studying and working with climate would not be aware of all that you put forward.

    Aware and rejecting such as causes.

    .

  162. ‘How long did it take them previous periods of cooling and warming to occur?

    ‘How does that compare with what is happening now?’

    The jump from warming to cooling and back to warming every 30 years is well documented. Most of the regulars here have experienced two cycles already.

    Natural climate change is ‘noise’ and AGW is known as ‘signal’, so going forward there will be discussion on the noise to signal ratio. This graph shows a view from Greenland and you can see why the Norseman gave it the name.

    http://hot-topic.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/GISP210klarge.png

  163. El G …….the other one plays jingle bells :roll:
    “Of course, when you tell someone that they will be travelling with you to a place that is barren, cold and inhospitable you may have trouble convincing even a Viking to come with you. So instead, Erik (according to popular legend) called the island Greenland and instead painted the island as being a wonderful place to settle.”
    http://ancientstandard.com/2010/12/17/how-greenland-got-its-name/

  164. The IPCC tried to eliminate the MWP, but it won’t wash.

    ‘During the 9th & 10th centuries the Vikings reached Iceland and Greenland during the milder condition that prevailed during Medieval Warm Period. Norse settlers arrived in Iceland in the 9th and Greenland in the 10th century with an agricultural practice based on milk, meat and fibre from cattle, sheep, and goats.

    ‘The settlers were attracted by green fields and a relatively good climate and driven there by population pressures in Scandinavia. They were able to sail to Iceland and Greenland as well as Labrador because of a decrease in sea ice in the North Atlantic.’
    LINK

  165. The IPCC tried to eliminate the MWP, but it won’t wash.

    Where’s your evidence for that lie el gordo?

    If you can’t provide proof that the IPCC deliberately attempted to eliminate the MWP from their records then you have confirmed what I’ve been saying been saying, you have absolutely no credibility on this subject.

  166. Correction: Most of the regulars here have experienced ONE cycle already.

    The 60 year cycle can be found in ice cores, shallow sea cores and lakes.

  167. Watch the video in full as it shows how the deniers scam the gullible like el gordo and Treeman by manipulating graphs, that they fall for hook line and sinker as the do for every denier scam that’s put out there.

    It explains how Monkton and other made the false claim that the IPCC attempted to eliminate the MWP. As usual they scammed and the gullible like el gordo fell for it.

    Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age Myths

    So-Called Medieval Warm Period Not So Warm After All

    How does the Medieval Warm Period compare to current global temperatures?

    Medieval Warm Period Project

  168. “Good afternoon, I’ll google your request.”

    Oh c’mon, please don’t tell us you made a very serious statement as to accuse a major organisation of deliberately falsifying records without any evidence, and now have to Google to attempt to cherry pick a scam that supports your lie?

    Not good el gordo, not good at all.

    And now you know why I say el gordo has no credibility on this subject, and others as well.

    It’s very easy to continuously throw in single paragraph nonsense with no context or source, or to quote cherry picked snippets from a source without linking to it or worse, link to a picture of a graph without giving the full context and the information that produced it, but to be credible you need to be able to explain and fully source the contentions or your standpoint on the matter.

    Worst of all is to throw in blatant false accusations to make a point.

  169. The global cooling between 1940 and 1975 was a result of industrial sulphur emissions. In the 1970s it was found that sulphur turned into sulphuric acid and was producing acid rain, so a global initiative was begun to have these emissions banned. When the ban came into effect, global warming took off in earnest. What had not been fully realized was that these sulphur emissions had had a cooling effect on the atmosphere, so that when they were removed, the warming effect of carbon dioxide went unhindered.

  170. ‘the most extraordinary temperature anomaly in North American history.’

    A couple of hundred years or less.

    Wonder who that ‘leading American climatologist’ is?

  171. From Lovo;s link…

    “From the meteorological point of view, Central Europe is prone to heat waves in the summer and severe frost in the winter. It does not happen each year but every 10 or 20 years, the situation can get extreme.

    “But I don’t think it’s a result of global climate change; it’s a result of standard weather conditions as monitored for hundreds of years.”

  172. GLOBAL El G…..
    Meteorologists reported that this spring was the warmest ever recorded for our nation – in fact, it crushed the old record by so much that it represented the “largest temperature departure from average of any season on record.” The same week, Saudi authorities reported that it had rained in Mecca despite a temperature of 109 degrees, the hottest downpour in the planet’s history.

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719#ixzz2HAmNlyJQ
    Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

  173. Too true Silkworm. The European Union were going to take the U/K to the international court over it. Being described at the time as the dirty man of Europe. It is well documented.

    I am interested as to why people keep responding to the one line Schlock fest El Loopy keeps putting out? It is obvious she/he is taking the piss, no fucker could be that stupid.

  174. Sorry P.J. my bad. I had said I would no longer engage el gordo because of the total loss of credibility in constantly posting false and misleading one paragraph nonsense, but some are so blatantly a lie that I jumped in.

    I think I will do what others have done elsewhere and let el gordo have this thread all to themselves to spruik all the denier bullshit and scams they want. The gullible leading the gullible.

  175. The particulate pollution from the end of ww2 to the mid 1970s was not enough to dampen down temperatures. What is being pumped out of China and India today dwarfs the earlier period and we have warming.

    Reid Bryson pushed that line long ago and has since fallen on deaf ears.

  176. AND then it went on to say… “However, Mr Tolasz says the results of a recent study by the institute suggest that such extreme conditions are set to become more frequent in the future.” ……
    WORM :lol: :roll: you and your one liners fatty … nnnaaaahaaa

  177. ” I think I will do what others have done elsewhere and let el gordo have this thread all to themselves to spruik all the denier bullshit and scams they want. The gullible leading the gullible.”

    Indeed.

    I am being quite serious when I say anyone doubting the bona fide science available on this issue, that confirms the reality of G.W.; is quite barking bonkers.

    I being in my dotage so to speak, never thought I would see the results of it, If I live another 15 yrs, it will become even obvious, to the deaf dumb and blind.

  178. ‘If I live another 15 yrs, it will become even obvious, to the deaf dumb and blind’ that global cooling has returned.

  179. The pollution spewed out over Britain since WW2 and after the seventies was in a word ‘ Dangerous’ When I was a child, pea soupers killed hundreds of people. When it rained people had to bring in their washing to stop it turning black. The hospitals were full of people with chest complaints.The acid in the rainwater could/did bleach paint.

    The weather patterns flowed over the British Isles taking the acid rain with it. The German forrests were destroyed by it.

    Stop playing with yourself El Loopy and start reading some books. Not the ramblings of pop eyed Monkton.

  180. ” If I live another 15 yrs, it will become even obvious, to the deaf dumb and blind’ that global cooling has returned.”

    Only if they live in fridges you idiot.

  181. This is the fourth edition of this thread. What have we had. Page after page describing and giving examples of naturally occurring global climate change.

    That is very informative, but who has denied that is did not and will not continue to occur. No one that I know of.

    One of the links given today, even mentioned in medieval time, with population increase and mass clearing of forests for agriculture reasons, correlated with an increase in temperature. The clearing of the land, release carbon that was entrapped into the atmosphere. Both events did occur. Maybe it was just as coincidence. Who knows.

    Nothing put up here proves that there is not also man made climate change going on as well. Maybe we can do little about the natural changes, and maybe we can live withy that.

    ‘We cannot live with the changes we cause.

    The world will be a better place without the burning of fossil fuels. Even without the problem of carbon emission, that is the modern way ti go,

  182. Coal mining WILL be stopped….. the world WILL have to go on a ‘war’ footing…… ITS TIME to battle our own excesses….. the choices ARE stark and uninviting….. reality IS calling the tune….. CHOOSE :( I won’t be here…. my kids will….. I have chosen…. and I am fighting…. WILL YOU. …. Time to put your hand up and your foot down…. time to walk the walk NOW, tommorrow is already here. …. if you can only do a little.. do it NOW…. tommorrow is already here… talk the talk, walk the walk… choose well while you still have the luxury of choice.
    (rant over….over to you Gordo :(

  183. ‘Maybe it was just as coincidence. Who knows.’

    The warming of the High Middle Ages saw an increase in population because food was more abundant, the cold/damp conditions had disappeared.

    The release of CO2 into the atmosphere from increased agriculture was negligible, but the warming oceans would have released plenty.

  184. Its a little known fact that CO2 concentration during the MWP was 40% less than today…and the planet was warmer.

  185. UK energy bills are high and poor families have returned to life in the 1950s, remember, you wore lots of warm clothes even around the house.

    There is Clean Energy Bill before parliament which should create a huge debate….there is 110 billion British pounds at stake.

    ‘So what should we be doing? The immediate answer is obvious. Thousands of feet beneath Lancashire and many other areas is a vast and readily accessible energy source: clean natural gas, which can be tapped through fracking – pumping in water and one non-toxic chemical to release the gas trapped in shale rock fissures.

    ‘This in turn should be used to fuel modern ‘combined cycle’ power stations whose emissions are only 37 per cent of the coal plants they would replace. All of this could be achieved with no subsidy at all. By such means, America, where fracking began on a large scale in 2003, has reduced its gas price by two-thirds and cut its CO2 emissions to the levels of 20 years ago.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257826/Why-IS-Britain-pay-110billion-enter-new-Dark-Age-A-damning-indictment-new-Green-friendly-Energy-Bill.html#ixzz2HBxGZdK8
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  186. El G…. like Mo said, “I think I will do what others have done elsewhere and let el gordo have this thread all to themselves to spruik all the denier bullshit and scams they want. The gullible leading the gullible.” …your a total and absolute FUCKWIT… bye. *scroll*

  187. ………………………………or example, despite Spooner’s claims to the contrary, Professor Bob Carter is not an expert in climate science, having been the co-author of only one peer-reviewed research paper on this topic in the past seven years. This paper was quickly refuted by experts and the predictions it contained regarding global temperatures in 2011 turned out to be grossly inaccurate. Furthermore, Carter’s scientific independence has been brought into question because of payments he has received for his views from the Heartland Institute, an organisation similar to the Institute of Public Affairs in Australia, that strongly opposes mainstream views on climate change.
    Spooner also states several “facts” where data shows otherwise. This is what makes him a denier, i.e., someone who denies scientifically collected data to argue their point. Being a denier of climate change has nothing to do with the Holocaust and is an irrelevancy that further weakens Spooner’s argument.
    In his article Spooner states that ”… everybody agrees that the warming trend paused 16 years ago”. This statement is demonstrably false, as the period 2000 to 2009 was warmer than 1990 to 1999, which was warmer than the decade before it, thus continuing an ongoing trend lasting more than 150 years. Climate sceptics obfuscate temperature data by cherry-picking an unusually hot period in 1997-98 as the baseline for comparison. As both 2005 and 2010 were hotter than 1998, the sceptics will no doubt use these years as the baseline for future comparisons. (For more information visit http://news.discovery.com/earth/no-global-warming-hasnt-stopped-121017.html). Incidentally, if warming has paused, how is it that glaciers and polar ice are melting faster than ever?

    Read more: http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/spooners-views-on-climate-change-are-far-from-weathertight-20130106-2cb1a.html#ixzz2HDVzDAtJ……..

    http://www.watoday.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/spooners-views-on-climate-change-are-far-from-weathertight-20130106-2cb1a.html

  188. ‘Sea surface temperature records indicate El Niño and La Niña events are responsible for the warming of global sea surface temperature anomalies over the past 30 years, not manmade greenhouse gases.

    ‘I’ve searched sea surface temperature records for more than 4 years, and I can find no evidence of an anthropogenic greenhouse gas signal. That is, the warming of the global oceans has been caused by Mother Nature, not anthropogenic greenhouse gases.’

    Bob Tisdale

  189. ‘AGU used to be about physical sciences. Its erosion of standards was well exemplified by its inclusion of Stephan Lewandowsky, a social psychologist from western Australia, as co-convenor of two sessions.

    ‘Lewandowsky’s field of social psychology has recently been severely criticized for lack of replicability. Indeed, Lewandowsky’s own recent work can perhaps be best described as a unique combination of Mannian statistics and Gleickian ethics. Doubtless, this will place Lewandowsky on the short list for next year’s AGU fellows.’

    Steve McIntyre (Climate Audit)

  190. Soon you will be hearing stories that the continental US experienced its hottest year on record, but this may turn out to be inaccurate.

    NOAA has been accused of keeping ‘two sets of books’.

    ‘Glaring inconsistencies found between State of the Climate (SOTC) reports sent to the press and public and the “official” climate database record for the United States.’

    Anthony Watts deserves the credit for the scoop.

  191. The heat is still on
    The slightly warmer conditions overall for 2012 represented a turnaround from 2011, when cooler than average temperatures were recorded for only the third time since 1990.
    Despite cooler conditions across 2010-2012 compared to recent norms, the last decade (2003–2012) has still been one of Australia’s warmest on record; with an anomaly of +0.44 degrees Celsius, the fifth-warmest 10-year period on record. This figure is eerily similar to that of global temperature changes over the past decade – with 2003-12 the third hottest decade on record, 0.45 degrees Celsius above average, according to the World Meteorological Organization.

    Source: BoM
    As for what’s in store in 2013? The Bureau suggests the hot end to last year is set to extend well into this as La Nina will not be a factor. It’s early days, but with January on track to be one of the hottest months ever, the stage is certainly set for more unwelcome records in 2013. Indeed, early forecasts suggest it may be the globe’s hottest on record.

    http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/2012-australia-s-year-weather-contrasts?utm_source=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily

  192. Technically that is correct, we are on a plateau so we get those hottest years on record, data which only goes back over a century.

    BoM is now part of the Klimatariat and have fiddled the books as well.

    ‘…early forecasts suggest it may be the globe’s hottest on record.’

    I wouldn’t put any money on that.

    Of more immediate interest ….our star has belatedly developed chicken spots.

    And I won’t be putting money on where that’s going.

    http://nextgrandminimum.wordpress.com/2013/01/06/sun-has-developed-a-rash-of-spots/

  193. From your link…

    ‘The influence of extremes is a key talking point, with maximum temperatures on the rise and minimums on the decline. While overall average temperatures lifted 0.11 degrees, maximums were 0.51 degrees above the mean and minimums 0.28 degrees below – a discrepancy only bettered twice in 113 years.’

    So max was getting higher and min cooler?

    A discrepancy worth following up.

  194. Its the mechanism which interests me, remember how cold it was in NT last winter? Records were broken, but here’s a par from BoM’s statement which gives an interesting lead.

    ‘The large contrast between warm maxima and cool minima resulted in the mean diurnal temperature range being the third-highest on record. The more extreme years of 1994 and 2002 also saw severe drought over most of Australia.’

  195. Catching up
    JANUARY 6, 2013 @ 11:09 AM
    “Also does not mean that the experts and those in the trade could also be wrong.”

    Those in the trade eh. Which “trade’ do you refer?

    “Maybe someone could tell us why the majority, in fact well over 90% of the worlds scientist and those engage in working with the climate, would enter this conspiracy”

    Wasn’t it 97% last week?

    “I can see why those putting the opposite view might, as they are in the employ of those who have most to lose from global warming, man made by excessive emission of carbon”

    You’re deluded!

  196. ‘When scientists predict that there will be no more snow, and it snows, there ought to be a price. When a scientist can tell us the rains won’t fill the dams and that our cities need expensive desal plants, and he’s proven wrong yet suffers no loss of reputation or stature (or funds), what does it mean to be a scientist?

    ‘Nothing. The people trashing the reputation of all scientists are the ones who stay silent while charlatans steal the brand-name and good will of science, and get away with profoundly unscientific behaviour.’

    Jo Nova

  197. Kyoto is Dead

    ‘Japan promised a 6% reduction relative to its 1990 levels, but instead saw a 7.4% increase, despite 20 years of economic stagnation. Australia, where growth has been more robust, pledged to let carbon increase by no more than 8%. Instead its 1990-2010 emissions rose 47.5%.

    ‘The Netherlands promised a 6% cut but wound up with 20% higher emissions by the end of 2010. Canada, one of the pact’s most enthusiastic early backers, committed to a 6% cut but saw a 24% emissions increase above 1990 levels. In 2011 Ottawa announced it was withdrawing from Kyoto to avoid the penalties it would have owed for missing its target.’

    Hockey Schtick (sic)

  198. Tree, playing safe. Seen differing figures from 97 to 99 percent. No matter what, a big majority do.

  199. Japan.. Did not they have their nuclear power wiped out, or nearly so.

    Does make a difference to predictions when that the facts change.

    Of course I am delusional. Must be to bother replying to the likes of you.

  200. The time line for when the timeline that scientist believe the rain and show will stop falling.

    I admit they should have been clearer, but the comments said would lead to.

    They did not mean, when making statements during the last drought, that rain and snow would never fall again. They meant sometime in the future, that will happen.

    Now it is a long ago, I cannot remember when they though the predictions would cut in. It is not now, but in the future

    If we do not take actions, it looks like those days will come, could be quicker than we think.

  201. The dams are full and will remain that way for a decade at least. His name is Flannery and I want him in the dock.

    They used the drought to get across their alarmist viewpoint, based on faulty science.

  202. Yes, that is the name. I am sure that Flannery has no fear of the dock. Would allow him to get out his version of what he said.
    He still stands by the statement he made.

    Not his fault his is misreported.

  203. Catching up
    JANUARY 7, 2013 @ 7:39 PM
    “The time line for when the timeline that scientist believe the rain and show will stop falling”

    If you knew anything about the subject you would know that Flannery has made so many predictions with timelines that have not eventuated, here are a few:
    http://anhonestclimatedebate.wordpress.com/tag/tim-flannery-failed-predictions/

    “I admit they should have been clearer, but the comments said would lead to.
    They did not mean, when making statements during the last drought, that rain and snow would never fall again. They meant sometime in the future, that will happen”

    Rubbish, you can’t defend the indefensible. CU is completely out of her depth here and blind freddie can see that!

    “Now it is a long ago, I cannot remember when they though the predictions would cut in. It is not now, but in the future
    If we do not take actions, it looks like those days will come, could be quicker than we think.”

    Oh dear, here we have Catching Up channeling Flannery, or was it Gergis or Karolly? Three of a subgroup of just 77 scientists, 75 of whom thought humans contributed to climate change. The ratio 75/77 produces the 97% figure that you foolishly believe…http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/that_97_solution_again/

  204. Tim Flannery, now Australia’s Chief Climate Commissioner, declared on Landline in 2007 that hotter soils meant that “even the rain that falls isn’t actually going to fill our dams and river systems”.

    Alarmist nonsense.

  205. “Japan.. Did not they have their nuclear power wiped out, or nearly so.

    Does make a difference to predictions when that the facts change.

    Of course I am delusional. Must be to bother replying to the likes of you.”

    What wonderful changes of pace and theme. Could this be multi tasking?

  206. CU is the only combat we have today, Treeman. All the cowardly males have left the field grumbling that the fat one is a complete idiot and promising never to return.

  207. More on Flannery from an anthropologist friend of mine…

    “Flannery as a young biologist documents in this book a search in Wildest New Guinea for rare endangered animals to kill, put in formalin jars, study once safely back in Australia & become famous in the tight world of museum science.

    Throwim Away Leg contains a number of disturbing accounts of Flannery’s interaction, observations & reactions with the Traditional Papuan Land Owners some of whom he uses as hunters to collect his specimens.

    Several episodes stand out.

    No.1. Flannery asks himself; Could I have prevented Arianus’s death? (p229.).

    This very pertinent question arises because Flannery refuses to abort a small short expedition so that he could ensure urgent medical treatment for a small boy thirteen year old , Arianus Murip, because I had waited life time to see the Meren Glacier, and the chance to do so might not come my way again.(p285.).
    As recompense and diversion on return to his Mine site accomodation the night of little Arianus’s unnecessary death, Flannery (p291.) decides to name a collected rat stored in the freezer in his memory.
    Unfortunately this rat had been previously discovered & named in 1970’s by a Belgian biologist. Flannery overcomes this obstacle by changing the taxonomy (p291.).

    No.2. Flannery & Ambep’s violence.

    I still think of this strange, contradictory man, and must admit that I came to regard him with affection (p84.).

    I had to deal with Ambep for my own purposes, for he was a highly skilled hunter who brought interesting specimens to me each day (p78.).

    He (Ambep) had an adopted daughter whom he had captured years before during a raid on the Atbilmin. She was, at about seventeen, just coming into marriageable age, and was both loved and valued by Ambep and his family. Ambep took his axe and struck her in the neck, then ordered his wife to dismember and cook the body. His little family group was then made to eat it. (p78.)

    Falnner’ys zoological non anthropological observations are that this is acceptable normal local reaction to grief – become crazed with sorrow. This state of temporary insanity caused by calamity is widely accepted in Miyanmin society as legitimate behaviour despite the fact that mad grief can become an excuse for the most outrageous acts.(p79.).

    It is unknown what women in this community would make of such a cavalier assessment of social norms or of Flannery’s association with this man?”

    By their choices we shall know them!

  208. “All the cowardly males have left the field grumbling that the fat one is a complete idiot and promising never to return.”

    eg, you’re too kind to them. “Grumbling” casts them in a far better light than they deserve!

  209. I am kind to them, my designated title (given to me by the Deltoidians) is ‘Concern Troll’.

    At last count four desal plants have been mothballed waiting for the drought that will never end. Billions wasted because there was no due diligence.

  210. And STILL we get absolutely nothing from the Trollman – you’re really living up to your name today :roll:

  211. tree, know enough to recognize rubbish when I see it. I am not as gullible as some here, I do know that.

  212. ‘Gullibility is a failure of social intelligence in which a person is easily tricked or manipulated into an ill-advised course of action. It is closely related to credulity, which is the tendency to believe unlikely propositions that are unsupported by evidence.

    ‘Classes of people especially vulnerable to exploitation due to gullibility include children, the elderly, and the developmentally disabled.’

    wiki

  213. Just saw Simon Banks, on The Drum, putting Tim Wilson from the IPA back in his box over the comments by the PM on the facts of more severe and regular bush fire events as a result of CC. :lol:

    Wilson was not happy, but was cut off by the host so they could move on to the next subject.

    Tim Wilson and the IPA are complete arse wipes! :evil:

    First bit of real balance seen on the Drum for quite some time. :grin:

    Good on Simon Banks :lol: :grin: :lol:

    Cheers :smile: :grin: :lol:

  214. QUOTE:

    http://www.smh.com.au/environment/weather/worst-fire-danger-the-state-has-faced-20130107-2ccvj.html

    ‘Worst fire danger the state has faced’

    Sydney Morning Herald, 08 January 2013

    A ”dome of heat” is expected to push temperatures in NSW above 40 degrees, creating ”catastrophic” fire conditions.

    The Premier, Barry O’Farrell, made an emphatic appeal to all residents to be fully prepared for the worst as temperatures soared on Tuesday.

    ”[It] is not just going to be in the 40s. It will perhaps be the worst fire danger the state has ever faced,” he said.

    A total statewide fire ban was imposed last night. The Shoalhaven and Illawarra area and the southern ranges are the most at risk, categorised as having catastrophic conditions.

    Most of NSW – including Sydney, the ACT and the central west – is rated as ”extreme”, while in the far west and on the far south coast there are warnings of ”very high” fire danger.

    [...]

    In some towns in the far west the temperature is predicted to hit 45 degrees. In Sydney the mercury is forecast to reach 43 degrees. The hottest day on record for Sydney is 45.3, on January 14, 1939, followed by 44.2 on New Year’s Day, 2006.

    Experts have described a huge “dome of heat” over Australia that has broken national temperature records and set the scene for dangerous fire conditions for days across large parts of the country.

    Australia is likely to have posted a record average maximum on Monday, beating the previous high of 40.17 degrees on December 21, 1976, said Karl Braganza, manager of climate monitoring at the weather bureau.

    [...]

    The heatwave continues to envelop a huge region, from northern Victoria and inland NSW, to Birdsville in central west Queensland, to north-western Western Australia and down to the Nullarbor coast.

  215. “we do know that over time as a result of human induced global warming we are going to see more extreme weather events,”

    There, fixed it.

  216. el gordo, how dare the PM answer a question she was asked, with what she believe to be the truth. We cannot have that, can we.,

  217. QUOTE

    http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/heatwave-hits-southern-queensland-20130108-2cdoe.html

    Heatwave hits southern Queensland

    Brisbane Times, 08 January 2013

    It’s official, a heatwave is engulfing southern Queensland.

    The mercury is set to soar to 41 degrees in Ipswich tomorrow – 10 degrees higher than the January average – and Brisbane is set for a top of 37 degrees.

    Meanwhile, Birdsville is due to swelter through 47-degree heat for the seventh consecutive day on Wednesday.

    “That will have never happened before,” Bureau of Meteorology forecaster Michael Knepp said.
    Advertisement

    The temperature in the outback Queensland town has exceeded 45 degrees for the past six days.

    Yesterday, the temperature in Birdsville reached 45.1 degrees.

    “I would say this would definitely constitute a heatwave,” Mr Knepp said.

    “What we’re seeing here is fairly unusual.”

    [...]

    The last time southeast Queensland experienced a comparable period of extreme heat was in November 1996, when the temperature in Amberley, west of Brisbane, exceeded 37 degrees for seven straight days.

  218. Twitter: 37 degrees outside in the shade, pleasant 22 in house thanks to Pink Batts KRuddMP and JuliaGillard.

    Wonder how much suffering is now on the hands of the opposition and the right wing media for attacking and prematurely bringing to an end a scheme that was helping so many people, especially the older and lower socio-economic groups, as well as finding potentially dangerous electrical wiring in a large number of homes.

    Those homes that would have been insulated but now aren’t are facing the double whammy thanks to the Coalition’s base negativity aided and abetted by a subverted MSM.

  219. QUOTE:

    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/bill-gates-gives-tick-to-carbon-tax/story-e6frf7jx-1226223361332

    Bill Gates gives tick to carbon tax

    Herald Sun, 15 December 2011

    One of the world’s richest men, Bill Gates, has given a tick to Labor’s carbon tax.

    Mr Gates, the founder of Microsoft who’s holidaying in Sydney with his family, said someone had to lead on tough global issues and it had to be hoped that by setting a good example, others would follow.

    “I wish the world at large found it easier to get together on this because a carbon tax is a very important tool to encourage the invention of low-cost energy technologies that don’t emit carbon,” he told ABC Television.

    “To help that happen, a carbon tax really is a key piece.”

  220. Someone should tell Bill Gates that it’s not a tax.

    Yeah, good point SW. I notice he was speaking to the ABC at the time, so it’s possible they put the words into his mouth, ala What is your opinion on Australia’s new carbon tax?

    He goes on to say he hopes the US would implement such a measure. Even though you’d assume that Microsoft, with all the plastic it uses in its software discs and packages, would be a big enough emitter of carbon to have to pay a price per ton(ne) of it.

  221. The truth of the matter is that climate always changes, but global warming has come to an end.

    Also, global warming produces less extreme weather that global cooling.

  222. el gordo

    While sitting at the doctors this morning I grabbed a National Geographic dated 2010 which had a major issue on water. 97.5% of the water on earth is salty, only 2.5% is fresh. Of the 2.5% that is fresh 50% is tied up in glaciers and ice packs leaving 1.5% available for the planets flora and fauna including humanity. As droughts and climate change and global warming together with human deforestation of the planet result in additional deserts and les rainfall the meand on this 1.5% will become intolerable. The population of human beings is exploding and the only alternative for almost all countries will be desalination plants. Especially those with the driest countries and guess what, we are the driest continent on earth. So those desal plants you so roundly boo and hiss and call white elephants, will more than likely end up like Robina Town Centre. Widely criticised and called a white elephant at the time while ending up being a central focal point of the Gold Coast and hugely successful infrastructure. Of course I have no doubt that should the conservatives have built them then it would be a different matter, they would be necessary infrastructure essential to human life and we would be lost without them.

  223. Climate Central
    Temperatures in West Antarctica are have increased by 4.3 degrees Fahrenheit (2.3 degrees Celsius) over the past 50 years or so, according to a paper released late last year in Nature Geoscience. That increase is far more than scientists have thought, and nearly as much as the 5 degrees Fahrenheit rise on the nearby Antarctic Peninsula, the fastest-warming region on Earth.
    It’s a cause for serious concern, say the study’s authors: West Antarctica holds enough fresh water to raise sea level by 11 feet if all the ice melted, and even a fraction of that amount could prove catastrophic to coastal areas where hundreds of millions of people live.
    In fact, the 8 inches or so of sea level rise the world has experienced since 1900 is already enough to have boosted the power of storm surges, put pressure on infrastructure in places like South Florida and exposed millions of Americans to the danger of coastal flooding. The 3 feet of additional rise expected by 2100 will make all of these problems vastly worse.
    West Antarctica currently adds just a tenth of the current 0.18 inches of annual sea level rise scientists have measured. But, “if this trend continues, its contribution to sea level rise could become significant. Not today or tomorrow, but a few decades in the future,” said lead author David Bromwich, of Ohio State University, in an interview.
    The reason Bromwich and his colleagues set out to analyse West Antarctic temperature trends is that previous studies have disagreed about what’s happening in that part of the continent. That’s because there are fewer than 20 weather stations in all of Antarctica, whose vast land area equals that of the continental US AND Mexico, so scientists have to make educated calculations about what’s happening in between.
    That is less of a problem on bigger, colder East Antarctica, where even a significant temperature increase wouldn’t push the mercury above the freezing point. In the west, though, the ice is already somewhat unstable since much of it sits on land that’s below sea level.
    Relatively warm ocean currents have already started eroding the ends of glaciers from below, allowing the ice to flow faster toward the sea. On the Antarctic Peninsula, meanwhile, ice shelves have abruptly collapsed, and in this case, much of the damage has come from meltwater on the surface.
    “Melting does bad things to ice shelves,” Bromwich said in an understatement.
    What’s happening to temperatures in West Antarctica, therefore, could have a big effect on the ice, so Bromwich and his colleagues set out to do a new analysis. There is a weather station in that part of the continent, but temperatures haven’t been taken consistently since the station was established in the late 1950s.
    To fill in the gaps, the scientists used a technique known as weather reanalysis, in which climate models predict what temperatures should have been in various places around the globe. Then the models are tested against what actual temperatures were, and refined.
    The result is a set of temperature reconstructions that can fill in gaps in the actual record with relatively high accuracy. “It was a big detective undertaking. We think the errors are quite small,” Bromwich said.
    The scientists found that winter and spring temperatures rose the most over the 50-year period they studied, but summer temperatures rose as well. Most of the time, they didn’t quite get above freezing, but Bromwich said, “we’ve seen some years when satellites have showed extensive melting” – something like the surface melting seen last summer in Greenland, where temperatures year-round have always been significantly higher than in West Antarctica…………

    http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/dangers-west-antarctic-warming?utm_source=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Climate%2BSpectator%2Bdaily

  224. In a colder world, like full glaciation, Australia will need desal plants. This is extremely unlikely to happen anytime soon.

    Even in a mini ice age, a degree or more cooler, it won’t make much difference to our drought follows flood situation on this sandy island.

    Adaptation to natural variability.

  225. @eg

    Also, global warming produces less extreme weather that global cooling.

    This claim is utter bullshit :roll:

    warmer climate = more energy in system
    cooler climate = less energy in system
    (relatively speaking :grin:)

    Logic dictates that the more energetic system produces more extreme behaviour.
    These (logical) predictions are borne out by observation.

    The only ice age that we need concern ourselves with is due in ~50k years, AGW poses clear and current effects and dangers.

    Predicted changes in orbital forcing suggest that the next glacial period would begin at least 50,000 years from now, even in absence of human-made global warming[35] (see Milankovitch cycles). Moreover, anthropogenic forcing from increased greenhouse gases might outweigh orbital forcing for as long as intensive use of fossil fuels continues.[36]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

  226. Australia will need desal plants as its population increases its forests are removed and our climate changes with longer droughts, less rainfall in many areas and ever increasing demand for a limited resource.

  227. ‘The only ice age that we need concern ourselves with is due in ~50k years, AGW poses clear and current effects and dangers.’

    We are within an ice age already, dotted with interglacials, which have a pre-determined life. The Holocene interglacial has reached its ‘used by date’ and could end very quickly…

    AGW is foolish.

  228. ‘Predicted changes in orbital forcing suggest that the next glacial period would begin at least 50,000 years from now’

    Full glaciation will begin in 50K, but by then average temps will be down ten degrees C. In the meantime we can view with great clarity how the system works.

    A mini ice age develops gradually so we are looking back to the end of the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) for inspiration.

  229. Shane the population increase can be better handled with decentralisation.

    There will be long droughts again, when El Nino reigns supreme. And as I mentioned earlier, ENSO is independent of AGW.

  230. Friggin’ AGW. I’m completely cut off from my home and am back at work.

    Boss has offered to put me up if they don’t open the roads in the next couple of hours, but it doesn’t look like they will be open until very late if at all tonight.

    Fire is that bad they aren’t trying to fight it. They tried a tanker from Albatross but it failed so they’re telling residents to bunker down or get to a relief centre.

  231. Gordo, take some time out and listen to the Frum Sensible people have just discussed global warming, as if it exists.

  232. Sorry to hear that Mo, typical bushfire season.

    CU global warming is over for at least another 20 years.

  233. What gets me on this one Cu is that all the fire fighters, some who are my friends and one workmate plus the locals are saying there has never been a bushfire season like this.

    Listen to the locals on the TV or radio, especially the older ones who say they have been through much in their lives and have fought fires when they were younger but they have never experienced anything like this.

    Those attempting to fob it off as typical are disingenuous and have no credibility in the matter in trying to help the vested interests to continue to pollute and warm up the planet. No credibility at all.

  234. ME, the weather mob had to add two new colours to their maps today. This is because they are now recording temperatures above what they have in the past.

  235. ME, just like those floods were typical a couple of years ago. All over the whole nation, at the same time.

  236. el gorrdo, have you noticed there is also no rain up north. Your solution for there would now be in trouble.

  237. Möbius Ecko wrote: JANUARY 8, 2013 @ 7:14 PM
    “What gets me on this one Cu is that all the fire fighters, some who are my friends and one workmate plus the locals are saying there has never been a bushfire season like this. Listen to the locals on the TV or radio, especially the older ones who say they have been through much in their lives and have fought fires when they were younger but they have never experienced anything like this. Those attempting to fob it off as typical are disingenuous and have no credibility in the matter in trying to help the vested interests to continue to pollute and warm up the planet. No credibility at all”

    Sad as it is to have fires of such magnitude and strength, we should reflect on the last two years of high rainfall and the resultant biomass of combustible material. Linked to that we have green ideology driven policies that discourage cool burns in winter and spring, council conditioned rehabilitation of urban developments with 10,000 plants per Ha and a mindset that says anything less is destroying the planet.

    Sure there may never have been a bushfire season like this but without the high combustible biomass it wouldn’t be happening. One thing for sure, we have never experienced anything like the levels of protection which are the catalyst for fires in the rural lived in environment. Farmers for the most part take precautions to prevent this sort of thing but sadly, green lifestylers haven’t got a clue.

    Mobius, it is indeed disingenuous of you trying to link AGW and pollution to these fires. In your own words…. No credibility at all”

  238. What is happening now is no different to what has been happening over thousands of years throughout the Holocene.

    Anecdotal evidence from locals is acceptable, but their memories may have been influenced by CAGW stories they have seen in the msm.

  239. ‘ME, just like those floods were typical a couple of years ago. All over the whole nation, at the same time.’

    It was called a double dip La Nina, with typically heavy rain and had nothing to do with AGW.

    I mentioned earlier how ENSO is a completely independent oscillation, free from the barking mad Klimatariat who tried to rope it into their global warming nonsense.

  240. CU on the West Antarctic.

    ‘Another “Nature Trick?” A number of articles appeared reporting that the West Antarctic ice sheet shows one of the strongest warming trends on the globe. On Watts Up With That, David Middleton exposes the study in Nature on which these reports are based. According to Middleton, the data cover two separate time frames: 1957 to 1975 and 1980 to 2012.

    ‘The first set show a moderately significant warming trend and the second set show an insignificant warming trend, with no warming after 1991. The researchers just stitch the data together to provide a long term warming trend. ‘

    Ken Haapala

  241. These are unprecedented. There have never been conditions and higher average temperatures combined with barely any humidity and 100kph winds.

    No you are the ones who are disingenuous.

    The head of the RFS is on the radio saying there has never been fires and fire conditions like these.

    The BOM is saying there never have been conditions like this on record and it’s not La Nina. The BOM has just explained it and it’s unprecedented.

    It is so unprecedented the BOM has added to scales to their temperature measurements with two new colours, deep purple and black to illustrate them.

    The BOM is saying that the computer models were showing these events and they are showing they will become more severe and come more often. Unprecedented.

    The biomass is a furphy Treeman to falsely put blame on the Greens, but like all furphies and scams you fall for them hook line and sinker. So your credibility has been shot, but then most here already know that.

  242. Its slightly amusing to watch the trolls denying the realities of the effects of AGW which are making themselves apparent (and terrible).

    The current approach seems to be of the same semantic “approach” as they currently adopt wrt CO2 pollution.

    Thus record breaking extremes of weather being experienced throughout the world are characterised as “normal” even as records continue to fall. :roll:

  243. Look what happens when a real bunch of ‘sceptics’, funded by powerful interests such as the Charles G. Koch Foundation (who have much to gain if ‘climate change’ can/could be disproved, looks at the ‘data’, with a super critical eye.

    The statement by Richard A. Muller the leader of the project after the completion of the project:

    Call me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.”

    Dear of dear. I concluded that global warming was real … I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause

    Perhaps he was looking for further money from Koch? LOL!

    Note also the statement made by blogger Anthony Watts before the study began:

    I’m prepared to accept whatever result they produce, even if it proves my premise wrong. The method isn’t the madness that we’ve seen from NOAA, NCDC, GISS, and CRU. That lack of strings attached to funding, plus the broad mix of people involved especially those who have previous experience in handling large data sets gives me greater confidence in the result being closer to a bona fide ground truth than anything we’ve seen yet.”

    Didn’t happen. Bad faith writ large.

    Perhaps the local self, described sceptics could also look at the data with the same level of expertise that the BEST project bought to bear.

    These half wits/scientific illiterates give blogs a bad name.

  244. Yes, very normal

    ……………………………he hot weather that has fuelled the fires in southern Australia has also delivered the nation its hottest day since records began a century ago.

    The national temperature is the average of hundreds of daily readings across the country and yesterday it hit 40.3 degrees.

    AUDIO: Outback roads ‘melt’ as Australia records hottest day (PM)
    But the record is not expected to last – the Weather Bureau predicts today’s scorching temperatures in some parts will set another high.

    For the past week, temperatures in Oodnadatta in South Australia’s far north have hit more than 45 degrees Celsius…..

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-08/australia-records-hottest-ever-day/4457164

  245. Dear oh dear Should be ‘brought’ not ‘bought’. ‘Bought’ has currency nevertheless. It was what Koch thought he was doing.

  246. Hottest days on record

    State by state:
    NSW: 49.7C, Menindee, January 10, 1939
    ACT: 42.2C, Canberra, February 1, 1968
    NT: 48.3C, Finke, January 1, 1960
    SA: 50.7C, Oodnadatta, January 2, 1960
    Qld: 49.5C, Birdsville, December 24, 1972
    Tas: 42.2C, Scamander, January 30, 2009
    WA: 50.5C, Mardie, February 19, 1998
    Vic: 48.8C, Hopetoun, February 7, 2009

    Capital cities:
    Sydney: 45.3C, January 14, 1939
    Canberra: 42.2C, February 1, 1968
    Darwin: 40.5C, October 17, 1892
    Adelaide: 47.6C, January 12, 1939
    Brisbane: 43.2C, January 26, 1940
    Hobart: 41.8C, January 4, 2013
    Perth: 46.2C, February 23, 1991
    Melbourne: 46.4C, February 7, 2009

  247. ‘Dr David Jones from the Bureau of Meteorology says the sweltering heat is being felt across the nation. “In records going way back to the start of 1911, yesterday – with an average temperature of 40.33 – is Australia’s new hottest day on record,” he said.’

    This is natural, do not be afrayd.

  248. is Australia’s new hottest day on record

    Really? No need to be ‘afrayd’ (sic). Further evidence of global cooling? Dr Jones looking for increased funding?

    El gordo would you care to outline your claim to ‘expertise’? Perhaps not?

  249. el gordo, you have it wrong. It is not us that have put our kids’ futures at risk. Not us who has delayed solutions to the problem, leading to more expense.

    No, we have nothing to be afraid of.

  250. Yes it’s still snowing in Alaska and records, whether they be for ‘highs’ or lows’, for land, sea, air or whatever can be found across the globe. But don’t be afraid, el gordo, the ‘expert’ (self claimed) is there to reassure us.

    Clearly has assistance when crossing the road.

  251. Sparta, it is not us that has need for panic, Our PM and government is taking the necessary action.

  252. el gordo
    The problem is our population is centralising not decentralising. One of the major reasons for this is the removal of services and the sale of public assets resulting in the closure of offices and loss of jobs in decentralised areas ( a wonderful result of the profit mentality by the conservatives who slash and burn services) So our population will continue to centralise enmasse. Forget the water, No jobs no people. Consequently your answer for managing population growth is irrelevent, much like the denial of human activity causing global warming.

  253. Shane we have always settled on the coast, its more hospitable, but with very fast rail criss-crossing the country, connected to state of the art satellite towns near mines or agricultural development, it should be possible to decentralise.

    When scapper gets back we’ll ask him, as he has his hand on Gina’s pulse.

  254. ‘Consequently your answer for managing population growth is irrelevent, much like the denial of human activity causing global warming.’

    Global warming is not happening, its all over red rover.

  255. el gordo, take your head out of the sand for a moment. There is no rain in the north and temps over 50C. How will they survive,no matter how many trains.

    They are having fire trouble there as well.

    I suspect, with the information coming in eery day for months now, we are well and truly on the way to man made climate change.

    Little time left to act. We cannot reverse any damage caused. Only answer, is to prevent more.

  256. CU the cold snap in the NT last winter broke cold records. Humans will live there in state of the art satellite towns, watermelon dreaming.

  257. Tom I already highlighted that purple patch yesterday, if you would care to look up the thread.

    Lake Eyre is a very hot place in summer.

  258. el gordo

    You cannot decentralise without services, you know, police, hospitals, ambulances, fire stations, roads, transport, government services, rail. You know, the things that have been slashed and burnt for over 30 years now by governments and especially the conservatives. Decentralisation used to be the answer until government started closing eveything down and privatising assets. Then we lost post offices, banks, schools, police, government departments, government agencies etc etc thereby forcing private enterprise to withdraw their facilities as well. This will never be reversed, especially in the current era of parttisan politics and conservative demands for cost benefit analysis and profit at all costs from government investments rather than vision for the future.

  259. ‘……………………………………..Clearly, the climate system is responding to the background warming trend. Everything that happens in the climate system now is taking place on a planet which is a degree hotter than it used to be.”
    Advertisement
    As the warming trend increased over coming years and decades, record-breaking heat would become more common, Dr Jones said.
    ”We know that global climate doesn’t respond monotonically – it does go up and down with natural variation. That’s why some years are hotter than others because of a range of factors. But we are getting many more hot records than we’re getting cold records. That’s not an issue that is explained away by natural variation.”……………………………….

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/records-will-keep-tumbling-with-blistering-heatwaves-here-to-stay-20130108-2cetq.html#ixzz2HQEpEncx

  260. Yes,l el gordo, one could say it is normal, the new normal. In other words, here to stay.

    .

    ……each of the lower 48 states had an annual temperature that was higher than average, said the center. Nineteen set records.

    ’New normal’

    “I’m afraid it’s just the new normal,” said Robert Marshall, founder of Earth Networks in Germantown, Maryland. “At the end of the day, the trend is pretty clear.”

    Last summer had the third-highest population-weighted cooling demand since 1950, Mark Russo, a meteorologist for Chesapeake Energy Corp., said during a presentation today at the annual meeting of the American Meteorological Society………………………

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/us-posts-year-of-record-high-temperatures-20130109-2cfcp.html#ixzz2HQGSAJH1

  261. Shane… it will be an economic imperative to decentralise, hand in hand with our Chinese comrades. Have you heard of the five year plan?

  262. Moonbat

    You’re calling Monbiot a “moonbat”?

    Right-Wing Projection!

    [Right-Wing Projection: The political tactic whereby members of the Right seek to distract from their faults/motives by ascribing them to their opponents]

  263. ‘Australians now burn, on average, slightly more carbon per capita than the citizens of the United States, and more than twice as much as the people of the United Kingdom.’

    double guffaw

  264. So what on earth does the Chinese 12th, 5 year plan (which means it has actually been a 60 year plan), got to do with Australia regarding decentralisation ?

    It actually reads more like an admission of Global Warming and Chinas determination to rely more on renewable sources of energy by investing more than any other country into wind and solar power generation and technology.

    China is a communist country with forward thinking politicians in many areas. Australia is a partisan duopoly of a democracy with politicians who only look at immediate needs by way of bribery and tax cuts to the rich to stay in power.

    The only thing we seem to commit to is roads and bridges, roads and bridges and mines and mines. Very short term immediate goals with no collection of taxes or super profits for future generations, just more and more tax breaks and deductions for the wealthy.

    I do not support communism nor do I support the extreme capitalism being touted by the billionaires for our country either.

  265. China is far more corrupt and they are clamping down on free speech through the interwebys and msm.

    Infrastructure is the key to growing Australia and with China’a help we can achieve this.

  266. China seems no more corrupt than many of our own politicians and business crooks.

    The only infrastructure we have that is being built is the NBN and the conservatives even hate that along with the right wing nutters and extreme capitalists who want to profit from everything imaginable and simply whinge and whinge.. If the infrastructure you refer to is simply roads and bridges then this is just backward thinking with no vision.

  267. el gordo, all you say alleged could be true

    What is also true, they have lifted great chunks of their population out of poverty, and has the fasted gowning middle class in the world.

    Maybe the proof is found in the eating.

    Gee, Mr O’Farrell has just shown up ABC 24. Wonder if he met up with Tines, driving that truck. He is at Bookham. Not sure where that is.

    No, I think it maybe Wagga.

  268. el gordo

    Our previous governments destroyed our rail networks and totally gutted the industry over the last 35 years in favour of the trucking magnates. It will never get off the ground as the trucking lobby and independent operators have such a strong interest in road freight. No different to the oil barons and the renewable energy debate or the tobacco companies and death from smoking.

  269. I already highlighted that purple patch yesterday

    And then had the stoopidity to utter this

    Global warming is not happening, its all over red rover.

    A special class :lol:

  270. … if their a**e was on fire. That’s just about literally true of Australia’s climate delusionists. As the hottest temperatures on record set off the predictable (and predicted) bushfires, they keep on with the same old stuff. This Catallaxy thread has it all, if you can stomach it – bogus statistical claims from fools too ignorant to estimate a trend line and too lazy to learn how, silly IPCC and BOM conspiracy theories, absurd economic alarmism about the allegedly catastrophic effects of the carbon price, CO2 as plant food, and so on. Catallaxy’s main rival in the lunar right stakes, the Oz, chimes in with an editorial snarking about Al Gore. Meanwhile, Christopher Monckton has teamed up with pastor, creationist and bigot Danny Nalliah, who blames the bushfires on God’s wrath, to promote an Australian version of the UK Independence Party.

    There is no possible evidence or argument that can shift these guys. The only consolation is that, while ignorance is strength in the short run, a political movement that relies on delusion will fail in the end. The US Republicans, and their supporting apparatus of thinktanks, media outlets and blogs have found that out, having lost both elections and credibility. The same is happening here, particularly with respect to alarmist claims about the devastating effects of pricing carbon.

    http://johnquiggin.com/2013/01/09/wouldnt-even-know/#comments

  271. I believe I pointed out the new colours long before it came to el gordo’s notice

    Either way, a new category is added because they didn’t have one for that hot, and grodo, who is fully aware of this, says something stoopid like ‘global warming isn’t happening’
    :lol:

    It’s not worth arguing with stupidity of that magnitude, just laughing is all that is required

  272. It’s Official: 2012 Was the Hottest Year on Record in Continental U.S. by a Full Degree

    It turns out 2012 was officially the hottest year on record for the continental United States, according the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. And it was the “second most extreme” year, judged by the U.S. Climate Extremes Index. The average temperature last year was 55.3 degrees, 3.2 degrees higher than the 20th-century average and a full degree hotter than the previous record that was set in 1998.

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/01/08/noaa_2012_was_hottest_year_on_record.html

    Buit it’s currently very cold in Alaska.

  273. It’s not worth arguing with stupidity of that magnitude, just laughing is all that is required.

    That’s all I’ve ever done. An ignoramous of that scope can only be a climate clown.

  274. Heat waves here, cold records elsewhere, and all in a rapidly warming global environment.

    And still some say nothing unusual is happening :shock:

  275. el gordo
    The chinese very fast rail may well be carrying freight, but as I pointed out to you it will not happen here, because our freight is tied up to mega wealthy barons with trucks or can you not see that.

  276. Shane, a few facts like China has never relied on the road for transport. Very high density populations, does not leave much room for highways across the country.

    High density population does make a difference.

    We would have been better served to leave the freight on the trains. That did not occur. Now we have NSW wanting to put triple whatever they call them trucks on to the roads.

    This government is making one attempt with freight centres on the edges of cities, but probably will not change much,

    Drum Rieth Workchoices.Is getting challenged a bit.
    Abbott will be yelling more bias if this keeps up,

  277. ME, why can there not be two things going on, Natural climate change, as well as man made. It appears it is the man made that is winning out over the natural.

    Why does it have to be one ot the other.

  278. ‘…our freight is tied up to mega wealthy barons with trucks or can you not see that.’

    Everyone has a price. Gina is keen to get her plans up and running and the Chinese have venture capital, sounds like a partnership to me.

  279. NASA: “Our analysis shows that for the extreme hot weather of the recent past there is virtually no explanation other than AGW.”

  280. “Gina is keen to get her plans up and running and the Chinese have venture capital, sounds like a partnership to me.”

    So you would rather Gina and the Chinese own our infrastructure as well as everything else. Wonderful, just wonderful.

  281. That’s the exact point Cu. It is not one or the other.

    On top of natural variability and other natural factors there is man made influences superimposing an unnatural warming trend.

  282. Catching up
    JANUARY 9, 2013 @ 6:19 PM
    “ME, why can there not be two things going on, Natural climate change, as well as man made. It appears it is the man made that is winning out over the natural.

    Why does it have to be one ot the other”

    Thats the smartest comment you have made since I first looked at this blog!

  283. ‘So you would rather Gina and the Chinese own our infrastructure as well as everything else. Wonderful, just wonderful.’

    Barnaby will be furious, but what choice do we have?

  284. ME, thanks. That is the point I have been trying to get over to el gordo and even tree for ages.

    We can be both right.

    Where I differ with them, is the conclusions they come too.

    I believe that in the last few months, there so much evidence building up, that it is becoming impossible to deny.

    The same thing has occurred with much of Abbott’s exaggerated attacks. He has failed on everyone of them. Not one success.

    Yes perception is important, especially in the short term,. There always comes a day when reality catches up with false perception.

  285. Möbius Ecko
    JANUARY 9, 2013 @ 6:45 PM

    “On top of natural variability and other natural factors there is man made influences superimposing an unnatural warming trend”

    Dream on…The planet has not warmed for 16 years!

  286. No choice while we continue to suck up to the parasites bleeding the rest of us dry and expecting us to work for $2 an hour. How about our politicians grow some balls and actually stand up to these rich thugs and actually implement laws to control their desire for total control. Chinese Communists owning everything or a few rich capitalists, seem the same to me.

  287. “I believe that in the last few months, there so much evidence building up, that it is becoming impossible to deny.”

    Problem for you CU is that there is no evidence, only spin and you have all fallen for it big time!

  288. el gordo, I am beginning to pity you. Take a rest for a time. Your head will be very sore, if you insist on bashing it up against that brick wall.

    Time for a new hobby horse.

  289. Tree, I have never said anything else. Please finish my comment. I do not agree with the conclusions you have come to.

    I have said on numerous occasion, that no one denies there has been natural, extreme climate change. No one has denied it is still not occurring.

    What is being said is that the rise in carbon emissions is leading to global warming. A process that is over riding what happens naturally.

    It is you people that have deny this fact. Why, one will never know.

    What we are saying that the millions of comments your mob have made over and over, mean nothing.

    No one has denied that is occurring. Makes no difference to the outcome.

    I fear you did not read what you have just said. I take it, that you do believe that carbon emissions, at least could be leading to global warming.

    I expect you will deny this. Once again I expect to be told I know nothing and is stupid.

  290. “Meanwhile a REAL knob volunteers for a photo op.”
    There fixed it for ya, Tree troll :grin:

    And the only pity on this site is for you as your lobotomy is showing again, you sad, pathetic little troll you. :sad: :sad: :sad:

  291. Shit Treeman pitying someone, that must be the most meaningless gesture ever. Now heaps of self pity is understandable.

    Abbott the stuntman, what a laugh and at least social media is pulling him up for the stunt it was.

    The fires were raging for days and peaked last night just before a cool southerly that was predicted and being tracked for two days.

    So Abbott who has been on holidays has nearly a week to jump in and help the Nowra fire fighters who had been reinforced by volunteers from all over including interstate days before.

    When does Abbott turn up, and there just happens to be film crews at the ready as he swaggers in all knowing and heroic, the morning after the cool change had arrived, the fire had been downgraded and only mopping up operations were going on. The day the highway opened so I could finally get home, but not because of anything stuntman Abbott did.

    What a joke of a human being this man is, from giving room in his fridge for an IVF recipient who just happens to be his spin doctor to showing up at stage managed stunts.

  292. Not sure it takes a real man to drive a truck. The ones I admire, are those who gave young families and are for going wages.

    Wonder how mamy hours he has spent at the depot over the last couple of years.

  293. Exactly Cu and why did the real man need all those film crews and journalists to witness him swaggering to a truck, talk some bullshit words as though he was knowing and fully on top of the situation and then drive 10 metres down the road.

    Stunt Cu, all stunt.

  294. ‘Time for a new hobby horse.’

    This is no hobby, I was a sportswriter in the old media and now I fancy the job of science reporter on this new platform.

    What’s your particular interest besides hating tabit? You should develop a portfolio.

  295. Delayed his holidays, not giving them up.

    Mr Abbott has delayed his annual holiday to volunteer with the Davidson Rural Fire Brigade at Nowra, in southern NSW.

    Mr Abbott has been a volunteer with his local brigade since 2000, served as its deputy captain before becoming Opposition Leader in 2009 and has direct experience fighting fires.

    The Opposition Leader said yesterday on Twitter: “I’m now on my way to Sydney to be on standby with my local fire brigade.”

    Mr O’Connor retweeted Mr Abbott’s message but added the tag “standbystunt”……..

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/tony-abbott-joins-bushfire-fight/story-fncyva0b-1226550553299

    Yes he is doing his civil duty. It is also a stunt, which he will milk as much as he can,

  296. tree, you said something for once that made sense, immediately you are back peddling at a hundred miles per hour,

  297. Why did it take the real man a week to get to those fires?????

    Someone had moved his proton pills around in the fridge perhaps?

  298. Dream on…The planet has not warmed for 16 years!

    So you think if you repeat a scam you fell for hook line and sinker often enough it will make it true. Typical wingnut canalise.

  299. 7:30 Report doing a story on the Deans Gap fire. Wonder if aftermath Abbott will feature in it. The ABC have been giving his stunt plenty of air and ticker time.

  300. Abbott got lots of time and footage of him in the truck, swaggering around and putting on a fire helmet in the middle of a car park miles from the fire in an obvious photo up stunt. The only fire fighter doing so.

  301. el gordo, I have to correct you. I do not hate Tabbot, as you call him.

    It is that I have no respect for him, or what he stands for. Sorry, he is just not worth hating.

    Hope you know more about sport than you do about science and other topics you voice an opinion on here.

  302. Tree, I was reared in the bush, not far from where one of the fires are now raging, As a small child, I still have memories of one that raged for days, Seen it come to out boundary and veered away, Still remember miles and miles on no fences but many swollen dead sheep in the paddocks. I know how hard those men worked with little more than wet bags, the woman doing hours of cooking.

    Yes, that one I believe went for over a hundred and twenty miles and a front of between ten and twenty miles. Yes, it was near Naradhan, in the mallee. Do not hold me to the figures, but they are not far out.

    Yes, I have a lot of time and respect for the men and now women, who make up out voluntary fire brigades. Too much to see them be used as political fodder.

  303. The resident Troll man has had another successful visit. Just have a look back at what he did…

    * Is there anything new or worthwhile there?
    * Did he elicit a response from regular commenters?
    * Did he pick a couple of “buttons” to push that he knew would elicit such responses?

    It’s time to recognise the behaviour and treat the Troll in the manner he so well deserves ;)

  304. No mention of carbon dioxide pollution driving climate here…

    Solar Variability and Terrestrial Climate from NASA Science News
    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2013/08jan_sunclimate/

    “Jan. 8, 2013: In the galactic scheme of things, the Sun is a remarkably constant star. While some stars exhibit dramatic pulsations, wildly yo-yoing in size and brightness, and sometimes even exploding, the luminosity of our own sun varies a measly 0.1% over the course of the 11-year solar cycle.
    There is, however, a dawning realization among researchers that even these apparently tiny variations can have a significant effect on terrestrial climate. A new report issued by the National Research Council (NRC), “The Effects of Solar Variability on Earth’s Climate,” lays out some of the surprisingly complex ways that solar activity can make itself felt on our planet. Understanding the sun-climate connection requires a breadth of expertise in fields such as plasma physics, solar activity, atmospheric chemistry and fluid dynamics, energetic particle physics, and even terrestrial history. No single researcher has the full range of knowledge required to solve the problem. To make progress, the NRC had to assemble dozens of experts from many fields at a single workshop. The report summarizes their combined efforts to frame the problem, for the first time, in a truly multi-disciplinary context.”

    It’s the Sun stoopid!

  305. Oh CU you’re a bloody hypocrite!

    “Yes, I have a lot of time and respect for the men and now women, who make up out voluntary fire brigades. Too much to see them be used as political fodder.”

    And what exactly is the Action Man post about if not political fodder?

  306. CU,
    FYI I was reared in PNG and Central America where I fought fires as a teenager. Wisconsin pumps, Willys side valve six truck with 4000L tanks. At 13 I drove the Willys and anything else around. Two generation of foresters for ancestors and one co-founder of Greening Australia have conditioned my view on fuel loads and fire hazards.

  307. Tree, I have come to the conclusion you either have nothing up top, or you are having us on.

    It is Abbott that is pulling the stunts, not us.

    As for pity, keep that for yourself. I have little need for any., I am travelling extremely well for my age., Also am very contented. Not full of hate and anger, like some.

    Well, I cannot remember my decease father ever behaving like Abbott, in any way.

  308. FYI all here, Abbott has been a volunteer with his local brigade since 2000, served as its deputy captain before becoming Opposition Leader in 2009 and has direct experience fighting fires.”

    You lot should pull your bloody heads in. What does Gillard do by way of volunteering? Go on name one little thing you arsegates!

  309. Catching up
    JANUARY 9, 2013 @ 8:08 PM
    “Tree, I have come to the conclusion you either have nothing up top”

    CU, I know now that you have very little up top. At least however you’re civil which is more than I can say for many who “contribute” here

  310. Me, I had a friend who was on IVF. Now we worked as DO’s (child protection) at the time. Now that is an all ours and stressful job.

    Now I cannot recall her having any problems at work. If she had to store needles etc, I do not recall. The only time she asked for help, was when she visited Westmead Hospital. She lived at Appin, I lived near the hospital.

    She used to stay with me when she had appointments.

    We all used the same toilets.

    The needles where if my memory is correct, the same as those used for insulin.

    Maybe others here, who have gone through the program could tell us of their experiences.

    The Peta story has to be the biggest beat up of the year.

    Yes, the result was a beautiful baby boy.

  311. The sun has not changed as far as I know, What it rays have to come through to get to the earth has,

    Yes, the atmosphere thanks to the addition of carbon emissions has changed.

    Allowing the sun to make things hotter.

  312. tree, the likes of you and your mob, tests the patience of all, believe me.

    I have to work very hard at being civil, especially when the attacks always end up in abuse and name calling.

  313. Catching up
    JANUARY 9, 2013 @ 8:24 PM
    “The sun has not changed as far as I know, What it rays have to come through to get to the earth has,
    Yes, the atmosphere thanks to the addition of carbon emissions has changed.
    Allowing the sun to make things hotter.

    Now I really do know you’re out of your depth. You have clearly missed the whole point of the NASA Report.

  314. Go on name one little thing you arsegates!

    Charming!

    Tell me Trollman, why aren’t you the PM or a computer scientist, or a medical researcher? Different strokes…

  315. It’s the Sun stoopid!

    How to out yourself in a projection and reveal your own stupidity. I don’t suppose there was any attempt to read the full NASA bit and links, Nah didn’t think so, that would have taken intelligence instead of the stupidity exhibited and the lame attempt to deflect that stupidity by inferring others were stupid.

    Caspar Amman of NCAR noted in the report that “When Earth’s radiative balance is altered, as in the case of a chance in solar cycle forcing, not all locations are affected equally. The equatorial central Pacific is generally cooler, the runoff from rivers in Peru is reduced, and drier conditions affect the western USA.”

    Raymond Bradley of UMass, who has studied historical records of solar activity imprinted by radioisotopes in tree rings and ice cores, says that regional rainfall seems to be more affected than temperature. “If there is indeed a solar effect on climate, it is manifested by changes in general circulation rather than in a direct temperature signal.” This fits in with the conclusion of the IPCC and previous NRC reports that solar variability is NOT the cause of global warming over the last 50 years.

  316. Mobius

    I did read it all and BTW, the first bits you have clipped above relates to solar influences…and you clearly consider Raymond Bradleys conclusion on its own reinforces the meme that co2 is doing all the warming.

    Just for the record, It’s the Sun stoopid is a widely used term that may apply to some here. Careful you don’t out yourself Mobius,

  317. Former Australian Prime Minister John Howard has apologized for his denial of global climate change, saying Australia’s recent heat wave has finally awoken him to the threat.
    Howard had previously been a staunch skeptic of the scientific consensus that human activity is driving an increase in global temperatures, even promoting a book describing the idea as a “hoax” and a “scam”.
    But today during an interview a New Zealand newspaper, Howard says that witnessing the worst heat wave in Australian history has changed his mind.
    “I can’t believe I was so wrong,” Howard told the Wellington Herald, “I was out in my garden this week and it was unbearable. It felt like I was being baked alive by god.”

    http://dailycurrant.com/2013/01/08/john-howard-apologizes-global-warming-denial/

  318. From the NASA link… luv the mechanism.

    ‘Isaac Held of NOAA took this one step further. He described how loss of ozone in the stratosphere could alter the dynamics of the atmosphere below it.

    “The cooling of the polar stratosphere associated with loss of ozone increases the horizontal temperature gradient near the tropopause,” he explains. “This alters the flux of angular momentum by mid-latitude eddies. [Angular momentum is important because] the angular momentum budget of the troposphere controls the surface westerlies.”

    In other words, solar activity felt in the upper atmosphere can, through a complicated series of influences, push surface storm tracks off course.’

  319. …………..emperatures in Australia set a record this week, averaging over 40° C (104° F) nationwide. Things are so hot weather maps have been updated with a new color. And local media have warned of a potential “Armageddon” as heat-related brushfires move into populated areas.
    Howard says he and his wife fled the country yesterday, seeking refuge from the oppressive heat in the cooler clime of New Zealand.
    “As soon as my thermometer hit thirty-eight, I booked a ticket for Wellington. I didn’t want to be burned alive in mother nature’s oven like my countrymen. I was shocked to see the images on television. My god we’re not potatoes, we’re human beings!”
    Howard says the experience profoundly affected him, and caused him to reevaluate his position on climate change. He apologized profusely to the Australian people for his role in holding back legislation designed to combat greenhouse gas emissions.
    …………………..

    http://dailycurrant.com/2013/01/08/john-howard-apologizes-global-warming-denial/

  320. MORE

    “The Australian people may not have always agreed with me. But I hope they recognize that I am a big enough man to admit when I am wrong. This is a terrible, terrible thing we have done to our planet. And I am deeply sorry for my role in the matter. We need action on climate change now.”

  321. “…and you clearly consider Raymond Bradleys conclusion on its own reinforces the meme that co2 is doing all the warming.”

    Don’t put words in my mouth Treeman. Again another right wing trait of attempting to twist things around, verballing

    I have never said that and would never contend it, so I don’t clearly consider whatever you project I clearly consider.

  322. Of course, carbon emissions do not bring about changes in the atmosphere. The arguments being put forward, are sliding into stupidity.

    What do people think of Howard’s reaction. So shocked, he got on a plane and flew across the ditch to safety,

  323. BTW Bacchus…one little thing?

    Meaning that Mr Abbot would make a better PM than Ms Gillard? Only a deluded RWDB could have those synapses connected :roll:

  324. Good catch CU, I’ve already dropped it off at Trash.

    I’ve never voted for Johnny Howard, the old fella must be demented and not responsible for the stupid words falling out of his mouth.

  325. How about we shoot down this eternally repeated false dichotomy too?

    * the sun has an effect on climate.
    * nothing else can possibly affect climate.

    That’s basically the meme el gordo and trollman have been peddling here. Do they really think the SCIENTISTS who spend their lives studying climate and related disciplines are not aware of (and continuously challenging their hypotheses with) ALL of this data?

  326. Methinks someone is demented about climate change.

    For all the things I have called Howard and the worse things I have thought but never voiced, demented was never one of them. Howard is as lucid as ever.

    But then again I suspect that with el gordo it’s not really about whether AGW is fact or not, that Watts or Monbiot is right or wrong, that the globe is warming or cooling.

    Methinks it’s all about being contrary to provoke. Nothing more or less.

  327. Stupid thing is Bacchus that Treeman after stating that it’s the sun stupid attempts to verbal me by stating I consider C02 as the sole cause of warming when I never ever have.

    So Treeman says its all the sun, but has said there is no warming, but it’s the sun anyway. Then goes on to falsely accuse another of blaming the warming that doesn’t exist on a single impute.

    Go figure.

  328. If the interview is dinky di, it really pulls the mat out from under Abbott. Destroys him completely.

    It undermines all that he has been doing for the last three years. Undermines Abbott’s reasons for deposing Turnbull.

    Abbott has based all on the sop called carbon tax.

    Is it time for Abbott to go. Time for Turnbull to be bought back.

    It allows Turnbull to accept the PM’s Greener Future legislation in full.

    Mr. Howard is a political animal, if nothing else. He does nothing by chance.

    Why get on that plane for NZ, Out of the reach of this country’s press.

    The interview looks genuine, If it is fake, it is an elaborate one.

    Saying that, it does not ring true. Working in the garden heading for the airport and NZ, because it is too hot. Most head for indoors and the AC.

  329. ME, I said the arguments being out forward are stupid. It is like being in Alkice and Wonderland. They are twisting themselve into balls. Nothing they are now saying makes senses. Nothing,

  330. ME, we have gone from saying all the things mentioned affect climate. What are the arguments about.

    There is only one thing that is in dispute,is the conclusions one comes too.

    What is having the most effect on the climate.

    Maybe they could enlighten us, on what they believe is bringing changes in the atmosphere. We seem to agree that maybe happening.

  331. ‘Skeptics are “professionals” who are always “crowing” and “seizing” on stuff; warmists are never professionals and are always “tackling” stuff.’

    Tom Nelson

  332. ‘Science thrives on dissenting ideas, it grows and learns from them. If there is actual evidence to support an idea, it gets published.’

    joker…..

  333. ‘Science thrives on dissenting ideas, it grows and learns from them. If there is actual evidence to support an idea, it gets published.’

    Absolutely true, but it doesn’t thrive on outright denialism and deliberate obstruction, obfuscation and misdirection with the intention of waylaying it in the interests of groups and organisations who benefit from the science not thriving.

  334. ‘a political movement that relies on delusion will fail in the end.’

    That would be the watermelon brigade.

  335. el gordo

    After your thousands of useless posts I have now determined that you truly are a troll looking for a reaction and then more than likely smirking at your computer when you get one. IMO you have no interest in the AGW debate at all rather you are scanning for every comment on every page to simply post here and wait for a reaction.

    As a result expect no further reaction from me.

  336. ‘In my view, warmistas and deniers are very similar in some respects — at least their extremists are. They have fixed ideas about climate, its change, and its cause. They both ignore “inconvenient truths” and select data and facts that support their preconceived views. Many of them are also quite intolerant and unwilling to discuss or debate these views — and quite willing to think the worst of their opponents.’

    Fred Singer

  337. El gordo, I know that you haven’t quite mastered the technique of providing a link, so I thought that I’d do it for you. The title of the article is: Climate Deniers Are Giving Us Skeptics a Bad Name

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/02/climate_deniers_are_giving_us_skeptics_a_bad_name.html#ixzz2HYfAso7j
    Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

    Quite a good article, in fact there is a lot of truth in that..that Climate Deniers are on a par with the Sky’s Going to Fall group. The truth as always, lies somewhere in between..for myself, not being a scientist I tend to veer on the side of caution..always, doing something is better than being An Obstructionist.

  338. ‘An Obstructionist.’

    The denialati are not obstructionists, we are not against the precautionary principle, but we do object to all the scaremongering about global warming when a mini ice age confronts us.

  339. “Quite a good article, in fact there is a lot of truth in that..that Climate Deniers are on a par with the Sky’s Going to Fall group.”

    I would have to agree, much like the “we are going to die if we don’t tax now” group is on the other side as stated in the article. My wife is a big “greenie” but all the same we do find common ground on this. I think it is more politics then science these days as one cannot even have a rational discussion (because it’s over you see, the discussion). Our common ground being, “if it makes sense for the environment then it makes sense to me”. So she clings to AGW and I simply say let’s make the same changes she is purporting but in the name of COMMON SENSE! However, common sense as evident from this blog at times doesn’t really motivate like “faith”. As the article points out, many of the comments of the “tax now, before we burn up crowd” reflect the real motives of the biggest AGW mouthpieces. It is the “scare them” and “mislead, distort” masquerade that really annoys me and the corruption of science for political and commercial gain. Sickening…

    Any of you bothered to look at the huge MARKETS created under the guise of being “green, organic” etc?

    http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/06/global-warming-payola/

    Big money…I am looking into solar farming at the moment with some land I have in New Mexico but that will all depend on “government grants” of course…LOL

  340. Bob Brown waxing lyrical.

    ‘Yet what hope the whales, let alone Homo sapiens, if global warming’s cyclone, bushfire, drought, species-extincting march is not stopped? Or if, via Whitehaven and other massive coalmines making Australia the world’s biggest coal exporter, that destructive march (which will play havoc with every shareholder’s income) is hastened?’

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/its-coalminers-not-moylan-who-are-costing-us-the-earth-20130110-2cix6.html#ixzz2HbqPvIf6

  341. ‘It is the “scare them” and “mislead, distort” masquerade that really annoys me and the corruption of science for political and commercial gain. Sickening…’

    Hear hear!

    The Warmistas are a disgrace, frightening our children with their alarmist nonsense, whereas the Denialati’s theories are not all that alarming, no tipping points in sight.

    And it won’t cost the taxpayers a penny.

  342. Energy systems transformation

    You won’t see the financial magazines and papers publishing that here, but it is oh so true and too important to be fobbed. We are in the complete control, and that includes both major parties and our population, of the big energy companies that there is no hope in hell they will ever do the right thing for this country and the planet unless they are somehow forced to, and it won’t be the shareholders doing the forcing.

  343. Tweet, 09 January 2013

    The Weather Channel ‏@WeatherAUS

    <i.Alice Springs has now recorded 7 consecutive days above 42C – a new record.

  344. The denialati are concerned by the extremes, but we think the sceptics might be correct on this occasion. Nothing unusual is happening.

  345. What part of extreme record breaking weather events is not unusual?

    PS. I know I should not be engaging el gordo as they are doing nothing more than piss take trolling for the sake of some response, but I feel the need to highlight the stupidity and nonsense in the constant stream of one paragraph gibberish provocations being posted.

  346. What part of extreme record breaking weather events is not unusual?

    the ‘events’ bit?

    it’s really descended into high farce now for grodo

    OK, higher farce than normal ;)

  347. One thing that these figures should remind us of is a simple fact, this great nation will become unlivable with even a small rise in global temperature.

  348. What is the difference between this government putting a price on carbon emissions, and Mr. Abbott’s Direct Action which included penalties to be applied to emissions.

  349. Yes Tom, the events part could be left out.

    And Cuppa the earth is cooling and its not unusual…. natural climate change.

  350. Naturally we are also concerned about the old people.

    ‘Pensioners will suffer a double blow today with the arrival of freezing weather and news that their energy bills have doubled in seven years.

    ‘Forecasters say temperatures could plummet as low as minus 10C over the next few days with snow in many parts.

    ‘The cold snap will put huge pressure on the elderly who are increasingly fearful of turning up their heating because of the soaring cost.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2260490/UK-temperatures-plunge-minus-10–average-heating-elderly-soars-1-350.html#ixzz2HddXVTIh
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  351. More lies put to bed.

    “Indeed I guess there’ll be more CO2 emissions from these fires than there will be from coal-fired power stations for decades.” – acting Opposition leader, Warren Truss, January 9, 2013
    On Wednesday, leader of the National Party and acting Opposition Leader, Warren Truss claimed carbon emissions from the current bushfires are equivalent to decades of carbon emissions from coal-fired power.

    The current bushfires are so large that the statement by Warren Truss seems plausible.

    This spurred me to do some research to find out.

    Coal-fired power stations in Australia emit around 200 million tonnes of CO2 per year. This does not include emissions from our coal exports.

    Around 30 tonnes of CO2 per forested hectare were emitted by the Black Saturday Fires in 2009.

    Bushfires this year have so far burned around 130,000ha of forest, so have emitted nearly 4 million tonnes of CO2.

    So, the bushfires this year have emitted an amount of CO2 equivalent to 2% of Australia’s annual emissions from coal-fired power.

    The current bushfires must burn an area of forest greater than Tasmania to generate CO2 emissions equivalent to a year of burning coal for electricity.

    And the current bushfires must burn an area of forest the size of New South Wales to generate CO2 emissions equivalent to a decade of burning coal for electricity.

    However, the carbon emitted from bushfires is not permanent. Eucalypt forest regenerates after fire, and will quickly begin to sequester from the atmosphere the carbon that has been lost from the current bushfires.

    The same cannot be said of coal-fired power stations….

    http://theconversation.edu.au/fact-check-do-bushfires-emit-more-carbon-than-burning-coal-11543

  352. Another severe cyclone heading for WA as more record hot days predicted for NSW.

    Extreme record cold and heat.

    Where is the usual in this?

    By continuing to throw up localised cold weather events means you’ve lost el gordo. You’re done and dusted, lost the plot and can no longer argue the climate, just put up nonsensical one paragraph guff and stories of cold weather from around the world.

    Credibility shot and nothing left to debate with this is the low you have been come to, snippets of stories about cold weather somewhere and stupid one paragraph applesauce.

  353. ‘Where is the usual in this?’

    Sceptics tell me that its the sort of weather we had in the 1950s and ’60s.

    There was that Sceptical Science moving graph which illustrated clearly the break points, where the climate becomes cooler for 30 years and warms up again. Global warming ended more than a decade ago, but I can’t see any tipping points.

    Sceptics 1 and the rest 0.

  354. You are correct elgordo, there has been many days as hot and over as many days as now. What I cannot recall, is any that covers the whole nation at the same time. The same applied to the extreme floods we had previously.

    Breaking records must man mean something..

  355. Record breaking temperatures up or down are just interesting novelties…. trends remain the most convincing way to resolve the issue.

  356. Alright…. I’ll have a look.

    In the meantime…

    ‘Dr Richard Allan of the University of Reading said: ‘Global warming is not “at a standstill” but does seem to have slowed down since 2000, in comparison to the rapid warming of the world since the 1970s.

    ‘In fact, consistent with rising greenhouse gases, heat is continuing to build up beneath the ocean surface.’

    ‘He was backed by Bob Ward of the London School of Economics, who said it would be wrong to interpret that warming had stopped.

    ‘However, he also condemned the Met Office for releasing data without an explanation of its full meaning.

    ‘It’s true to say this isn’t the Met Office’s finest hour,’ he said.
    ‘The sceptics have simply exploited that fact. I think on this particular occasion the Met Office has fallen short of the standards one would expect of them.’

    ‘Labour MP Graham Stringer said the Met Office’s short-term forecasts had improved, but their climate change analysis was ‘poor’.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2259012/Global-warming-Met-Office-releases-revised-global-temperature-predictions-showing-planet-NOT-rapidly-heating-up.html#ixzz2Hf9NlXHf
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

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