Class or an education

For all, irrespective of background the key to success has always been education.

Through Australia’s early history basic skills were taught to the working classes as other than basic reading and arithmetic was seen as “wasted” for those who would, through class distinction would never rise above their station in life.

Only the elite, the wealthy were considered worthy of a full education and even then women were frequently excluded. Such a waste to educate a female when she was only going to get married, however many upper class ladies were educated to a reasonable standard mostly to increase their prospects of finding someone “suitable”.

Middle and lower class girls were taught necessary skills such as embroidery, and how to knit a baby’s matinee jacket. Typing and shorthand were for middle class girls so that they could aspire to the elevated status of becoming a secretary. Middle class boys could work in a bank or attend a Technical school to learn a trade. Science, music and sport to elite level were the realms of the private schools.

It was therefore the natural order of things that public schools provided little else than a basic education and that private schools provided, due to the philanthropy of the wealthy were, with the exception of small Catholic schools, “halls of learning” with the facilities to enable the best education which money could provide.

The history of far less money available to a majority of Catholic schools goes back to the origins of these; poor Catholic migrants both 19th and 20th centuries.

Post WW2 saw the rise of the middle classes, diggers returning from war and the baby boom. In spite of the demands for increased levels of funding for public schools, little was done by the Menzies government with an exception of an increase in funding for science laboratories and equipment. This marked the Australian Government first substantial entry into funding for private schools.

In 1969, the Gorton government began providing direct per capita grants to private schools; but not to public schools.

In 1974, the Whitlam government introduced the Schools Commission Bill. This legislation perpetuated State Aid, however funding was based on the historical principle that the Federal government’s primary funding obligation was to public schools.

Gough Whitlam: “The primary obligation, in relation to education, is for governments to provide and maintain government school systems that are of the highest standard and are open, without fees or religious tests, to all children.”

Of importance, the Whitlam Labor Government also abolished university fees which enabled many children who previously had to “leave school to get a job”, access tertiary level education.

By the 1980s it was becoming obvious that Australia needed to move away from simply being a mine and a farm, but to where value was added to our other resource: the human resource. In 1990 Bob Hawke restated the Whitlam principle by declaring that if Australia was to compete at a global level, that Australia needed to become “the clever country”.

Funding to private schools increased dramatically under the Howard government, with the direct aim being to increase enrolments in private schools.

This was promoted as, “increasing parental choice in schooling”. Howard also removed all restrictions on the growth of private schools, and the establishment of new ones.

Prime Minister Howard and his subsequent Education Ministers, Nelson and Bishop, have continued to use the justification that the Commonwealth has a greater responsibility for private schools; the states for public schools.

Australian Education Union: The fact is that both Commonwealth and State Governments have responsibility for public education. There is no constitutional, historical or moral validity to assertions otherwise.

In 2004, Mark Latham announced a plan to slash funding to 67 of Australia’s wealthiest private schools and redirect the money to less-well-off schools, and was promptly accused of inciting “the politics of envy”.

Mark Latham: ”Labor has a very, very different approach to the funding of schools than the Howard government, we fund schools on the basis of need, we want equity in action in the Australian schools system.”

Latham’s list of the wealthiest private schools was promptly labelled “a hit list”; this terminology now having been revived by Christopher Pyne.

So successful was the Howard government’s use of class warfare: “the politics of envy”; Howard’s “aspirationals”, that although Kevin Rudd went to the 2007 election with the promise to conduct a review of the schools funding model, he also promised to preserve the Howard government’s arrangements for a further four years while this review was being conducted.

In 2010 the Federal Government announced a major review of the way it funds public and private schools, this being the first comprehensive review undertaken by the federal government since 1973. Funding arrangements were extended until the end of 2013.

Tony Abbott: “You can’t trust these people. They don’t like private education…if they’re re-elected, as sure as night follows day, they will try to cut private-schools’ funding.”

197 comments on “Class or an education

  1. As usual, an fantastic effort Min :-) You continue to inform and impress
    When the Liberals scream “Class Warfare” it means regular people are under threat of a fair go, and it is a battle cry for the Upper, Upper Class…. and it works.
    This week, we saw Andrew Bolt do his first coumn in a Sydney newspaper…. calss warfare indeed…
    Great piece :-)

  2. Min, when listening to the LNP in parliament, one thing is for certain, they don’t teach MATHEMATICS in private schools.

  3. Wixxy, thank you. Yet I wonder how it will work this time around..I’m not getting that a scare campaign of “cuts to funds for private schools” is going to work nearly as well.

    The status symbol of a private school education doesn’t resonate as well as it used to. “Doing it tough” no longer sits well alongside parents able to afford expensive private school fees.

    How many Bolt readers can afford those sorts of fees? Abbott sought to get working class voters onside via his scare campaigns, how is he going to tell these same voters that ultra wealthy private school parents need government handouts.

  4. … Labor are slow learners. Private schools continue to outpace public schools because parents want to ensure their children have the best education and the best start in life. Whether private schools are better is merely a perception or is a fact does not matter. What matters is that a huge bunch of parents don’t want interference in their choice of education by Politicians. The private school parents pay twice, through taxation and through private school fees. That is their choice. It is a no win for the Labor bleeding hearts to try and punish the private school parents by reducing government funding to their private schools.
    Abbott will wedge Gillard in a blink on this one. I see the confused one, Prime Minister Brown, has already decided what is in the Gonski Report, provided the solution to education and has costed it at $10 Billion.
    Gillard is lost in someone else’s dust …. again. Lay down with dogs and you get up with fleas.
    Thank God we get to the polls next year (or this year???)

  5. An excellent piece Min. It is interesting how Class Oppression and Female Oppression are so closely interlinked and how this becomes increasingly pronounced the further political views move towards the conservative end of the political spectrum. It continues to show how Patriarchalism is alive and well and thriving in modern `civilised’ Australia.

  6. Private school education is indeed a matter of freedom of choice. All parents are free to choose either a public school education or a private school education for their children. If a parent can afford $22gs pa for a private school education, then good luck to them but why should other children have to have a reduced level of education due to propping up the wealthy.

    The fact is that although through coaching, private school children obtain excellent year 12 results, that they have also a far higher drop out rate during their first year of uni.

  7. Jarl, thank you. This is true of all cultures – educate women and you thereby raise up not only the status of women but you improve the entire economy. If you exclude 70% of the population from the best education – say, 50% women + 20% lower classes, then you are left with a far reduced pool as a resource to achieve improvements for the entire nation.

  8. Min, great post, as usual. I find it interesting that that other great Liars Party principle of user pays falls in a hole when it comes to subsidising the wealthy.

    If you want to send your kids to private school, fine. But don’t expect me to pay for that choice. It’s not as if there’s no alternative to private. Once again, we’re being fooled into subsidising someone’s lifestyle choice.

    If you can’t afford the fees, don’t send the ankle biter to private school, or make savings elsewhere so you can.

    I have emphasised private, because those schools are private enterprises, not public enterprises. It’s the same as the 30% private health rebate-please explain why private companies need handouts from public money.

    However, if there’s the slightest hint of government “interference” in other areas of their business, the squealing is as deafening as the silence when their snouts are deep in the public trough!

  9. Min, that is not quite true. Menzies did bring in scholarships for the worthy working class.

    That was a salve for their consciences.

    The problem for the elite was as the technology improved, the need for an educated work force grew.

    The state schools graduates still do better at uni.

  10. Jane, thank you. The best that they seem to be able to come up with is that public schools will be ‘swamped’ by private school refugees should there be a reduction in private school funding. Private school fees will have to soar, they threaten.

    But since when have private school fees ever stopped soaring? Or is the solution that the public purse should forever and a day be used to prop up private enterprise.

  11. Cu, a reason why public school kids do better at uni was provided to me as being the fact that private school kids are taught to pass exams, rather than taught investigative skills.

    I remember this myself at uni..the look of horror. One student asked, But Sir, where are the class notes. Apart from being somewhat stunned at being called “Sir”, the lecturer said with a grin: They’re called books, you’ll find them in the library.

  12. The Greens have called for a multi-billion dollar investment in the public education system this year, as hostilities over schools funding ramp up.

    The debate will take on new urgency on Monday with the release of the final report of the Federal Government’s education review.

    And..

    AEU president Angelo Gavrielatos says international comparisons show the degree of under-funding for public education.

    “If Australia were to invest the same level in school education as the average investment of other industrialised countries, we would require an additional $10 billion per year,” he said.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-17/greens-want-more-cash-for-schools/3836222

  13. Tweed, really question your assertion that all private schooling is superior.

    I would say, yes private schooling is different but not necessary superior

    There are good and bad in all areas..

    There was an expert on ABC24 this morning, that countries that remain mostly public education save the best results.

    Children learn better among their peers from all levels of society.

    There is one thing the top private schools do give one, is knowing the right people when seeking a job. The school tie does carry weight.

    We need to remember that the Australian standard has risen, but not as fast as Asia.

  14. When I did the Intermediate Certificate back in the dark ages. All done the internal exam but there was an option of doing an external exam that led to scholarships. Now that interested me, as we lived on a dairy farm and money not that plentiful.

    During my time at high school, I mostly topped the class ahead of two boys.

    I allowed myself to be convinced that it would be too stressful to sit the exams.

    For the love of me, I cannot remember why I, and my mother allowed this.

    Maybe because at the time my mother had other serious worries.

    My mother always had hope of me going to uni. It was her dream

    Needless to say the boys achieved scholarships and went on to uni. One on a Teacher’s scholarship.

    The reality is, as a girl, I was considered too frail to sit and was done out of future education at the time.

    PS. I beat them well and truly in the internal exam. What I seen of the external, it was easier.

  15. I’m not certain that ‘the old school tie’ has as nearly as much value..employers today want to see qualifications and at a tertiary level, therefore which high school a person happened to go to while a teenager doesn’t have much relevance.

  16. Another excellent post Min.
    One thing that worries me is the proliferation of small ‘christian’ schools during Howard’s time. How many of these are teaching creationism?

  17. Pip, and another which concerns me is the chaplaincy program for public schools. I do realize that the public school system would be struggling to find sufficient counsellors (affordable ones) to cater to the needs of public schools, however while there is nothing in the Constitution viz separation of church and state to prevent this, I do believe that this contravenes the long established tradition of secularism in our schools.

  18. Many people may not be aware, but Aborigines were not allowed to attend a university until the early 1970s.

    There was a case not long before that milestone where some white Australians tried to have an Aboriginal man accepted in a NSW university, thinking the man’s intelligence might be recognised and a blind eye turned away from the discriminary law.

    Nope. Rules were rules.

    The man’s IQ, by the way, was 188.

  19. Migs, no I did not realize that Aboriginals weren’t allowed to attend university, but rather that it was a matter of opportunity.

    And the participation rate at tertiary level, or even completing high school for Aboriginals still remains appalling.

  20. Miglo, are you aware that there were many churches in the 50 and 60′s that would not perform mixed marriages. There were three in Wyong alone. Thankfully the Methodist Church came to the party to marry an only white son and a half caste. Sadly the woman had attended the church that refuse to marry her. all her life.

    The cruelest part was that she spent many years at Cootamundra Girls Home and was taught to see herself as white.

  21. Min, this was written by Jane Caro who spent 30 years in the advertising industry but is now called a ‘leftie’!

    How much money should our schools receive? How much should private schools get? What about public schools? A Federal Government review into the current system – and how it could be done better – will be made public on Monday. It’s called the Gonski Review after its independent head businessman David Gonski, AC.

    Why are private schools suddenly so nervous ?

    http://www.mamamia.com.au/news/public-schools-deserve-a-fair-share-of-funding-gonski-review-may-help/

    Surely, all reasonable Australians would agree that a child’s educational opportunities should not be limited by their parent’s ability to pay? After all, no child is disadvantaged through any of their own doing. They have simply been unlucky in the lottery of birth and been born into a family that is less able to navigate their way through society successfully than another child’s family. My passion for public education is based on precisely the fact that a civilized and compassionate society takes that into account and does all that it can to close the generational divisions between our children.

    For the last few decades, however, Australia has been doing precisely the opposite. If you doubt me, here are a few facts about the way we differentially fund our children’s education:

    •Public schools teach two thirds of our kids but receive one third of Federal Govt education funding.
    •Australia spends a smaller proportion of education funding on public education than almost every developed nation in the world. Only Chile and Belgium spend less.
    •Public schools teach all the children with higher needs. 77% of low income, 86% of indigenous, 80% of disabled students, 72% of rural, 79% of kids from single parent families and 84% of kids from remote areas. Needless to say, these children are also the more expensive to educate.
    •Taxpayer funding for public schools has been increasing at just over half the rate of taxpayer funding for private schools, despite the fact that they educate the kids that need the most public support.
    •In 1996 there were 13 low income kids to every 10 high income kids in our public school playgrounds, by 2006 it was 16 low income to every 10 high income. No doubt it is now even worse.

  22. Good post! But just a few points to add to the discussion..

    For all, irrespective of background the key to success has always been education

    .

    Not true! ‘Background’, broadly defined, has always been the key to ‘success’, particularly when it’s defined in economic terms. At a local level, just ask Kerry and James Packer whose ‘educational achievements’ were realtively modest, to say the least.. (And those names are provided only as examples).

    Nevertheless, it is (relatively) true to say that education is a very important avenue for individuals to escape the limitations of their own backgrounds. But it’s not a magic bullet.

    early history basic skills were taught to the working classes as other than basic reading and arithmetic was seen as “wasted”

    Yep! Go back earlier to England in the 19th century and see that children of the ‘poor’ were taught to read so that they could study the Bible but were not taught to write because of the fear that they might spread ‘dangerous ideas’. And besides companies at that time had no need for relatively advanced skills because the administrative tasks could be filled by the offspring of the owners. (All this changed of course when companies became much larger).

    As for:

    By the 1980′s

    Why the apostrophe? Plurals don’t require it. Possessives do. But I don’t see the possessive in this instance.

    Enough for now!

  23. From the link above by Jane Caro.

    He reached down into his briefcase and then brandished what I later was able to identify as the Emerging Issues Paper released by the Gonski Review late last year.
    “Listen to this” he said. “This is what it says. It says that ‘equity should ensure that differences in educational outcomes are not the result of differences in wealth, income, power or possessions.

    “Yes”, I said. “Is there a problem with that?”

    “It’s Marxism”, he said.”

    I find this anecdote particularly revealing because I have found myself being called a leftie (I can’t be all that left wing having spent 30 years in advertising, the coal face of capitalism) mostly because I am vocal in my support for and belief in the importance of public education. Quite frankly, the idea that publicly provided high quality educational opportunities for all has become a sign of communist or socialist tendencies terrifies me.

    Those danged marxists and communists…..

  24. From 1945 through to the 1960s the workforce was distinctly male dominated. Women, it seems, were not only precluded from employment opportunities but also considered incapable of performing traditional male roles.

    Feminists groups considered that capitalists, unions and governments had conspired to discourage employment opportunities for women, and indeed, the unevenness of the gender balance in employment was not seriously addressed until the 1970s. Two significant events that opened up opportunities for women were equal pay and the efforts to remove sexual discrimination.

    In the 1970s, as a result of intensive lobbying, women won the rights that they had preciously been excluded from, such as equal pay and equal opportunities. These contributed towards more of a gender balance in the workforce.

    More recently social factors have been significant in the movement of (particularly married) women into the workforce. The demand for female labour has also risen because of the skills they possess in an automated work environment.

  25. Yes, Pip, during World War 2 female participation in the workforce was buoyed by the necessities of the time, however at the conclusion of the war in 1945 the workforce returned to male domination.

  26. Re Jane Caro:

    Surely, all reasonable Australians would agree that a child’s educational opportunities should not be limited by their parent’s ability to pay?

    No! Most Australians ‘buy’/'choose’ the argument that parents’ rights are more important than children’s rights and because parents are voters (and children aren’t) the politicians go with the voters’ POV. Sad but true.

    As for:

    Public schools teach two thirds of our kids but receive one third of Federal Govt education funding.

    Basically, that’s true. But it ignores State provision of funds. And therefore that perjorative claim will be easily batted away. Caro is new to this debate while the privates know how to muddy the waters and therefore cause confusion.

    While I wish Caro all the best (because I agree with her sentiments) I fear the cause is lost. This government will put Gonski on hold and Abbott will just ignore same.

    Rudd had the opportunity to use his political capital to effect real change but didn’t. And besides he didn’t send his kids to public schools. Bligh did BTW, but then again it was to BSHS, which is the only public school in QLD which is a member of the GPS.

  27. A lady I know back in SA went to a Catholic school in Adelaide. One day her mother presented her with a red jumper she’d knitted and my friend wore it to school. She was caned by one of the nuns for daring to wear something that was the same colour as Jesus’s blood.

    She was to go home and tell her mother that she wasn’t to wear it to school again.

    Her mother told them were to stick it.

  28. Being from the farm, I had a father who saw no use in education. Kids had to work as soon as they were old enough.

    If you couldn’t work on the farm you’d have to find a job in a factory in town. Getting an education was for them city kids.

    It was a sad attitude, but a product of the times.

  29. Observa, thank you for that..1980′s started out it’s life as a possessive adjective, however during one of my edits of my post I deleted the noun, thereby transforming the adjective 1980′s into a noun whereby the apostrophe became a reduncancy. Now duly corrected. :)

    It depends upon one’s definition of the word “success”. I would not say that success is defined in monetary terms, after all it’s what you do with the money which is important, not how much of it one acquires or inherits.

    For example, I would say that my Downs Syndrome friends are very successful as caring, loving human beings. They were given opportunities by their parents and community to live outside the confines of an institution, but required some considerable education viz skills to enable them to do so.

    There are also instances where children of the working classes were deliberately not taught to read, for fear that the common folk might sully ‘the holy book’. Indeed William Tyndale was burnt at the stake for heresy for among other things, translating the bible into English.

  30. This is the education and luxury we all aspire for our offspring.

    He had, clearly, experienced a conversion on the road back to Marist.

    Marist College, sprawling across 10.5 hectares of prime inner-Brisbane land, with nine ovals, a gymnasium, an Olympic-size pool and a performing arts theatre, serendipitously lies within the Queensland electorate of Ashgrove.

    Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/the-old-boy-who-learnt-to-love-that-tough-old-school-20120217-1tehw.html#ixzz1mggjn58j

    How does this fit in with assertion that Labor wasted money on unnecessary school hall and the latest technology. Why is it deemed not necessary that state school pupils are not entitled shade covering from the harsh sun.

    These are only deemed necessary for those who can afford to pay.

    The PS existed and catered for the majority of school children before state aid was given to the private sector. The private sector has thrived since then. The Public sector has gone backwards.

    Mr. Pyne believes the present system is fair. He laments the fact that Labor did away with their wonderful coaching vouchers. According to Mr Pyne, that made the system fair.

    This morning we have seen a private school, Knox I believe. espousing the program they have, of more power to the principal and continuous training of teachers.

    Now what they did not say, there is an experiment and study occurring at this time, involving three schools. There was a documentary a week or so ago, on the ABC.

    Why only mention the private school, why not the other two as well. I believe the results have been positive in all schools.

    There is concerned that in the state arena, there will not be the necessary money, and failure will be aimed at the principal.

  31. Miglo, you did not have my mother. Her background was not that of farming.

    The Cross was more her natural habitat.

    This in spite of the fact that she was reared like us, in both city and the bush.

    Helping on the farm was more one of poverty than desire.

    It was not necessary, when my father was a wheat cocky.

    He had to leave that in his late 50′s as the dust was sending him blind. He hated cows.

  32. Maybe the waste was that they only built halls, not theatres.

    From above.

    “and a performing arts theatre, “

  33. A lot of the advice to youth these days favours being entreprenial rather than educational. A good education gets you a good job and if you work hard and save hard you should be comfortable in retirement. But you won’t be rich. I think kids these days don’t like the idea of having to grind their nose on the grindstone all their life and end up like the average bloke at retirement.

    We are living in an age of opportunity. It is the entreprenial kids who will seize it.

  34. I like cows. I too grew up on a farm where we had both dairy and beef cows.

    One of the dairy cows had a bad attitude. One day I walked up behind it and kicked the footy at its bum. I spent the next two hours up a tree while it circled below. She wasn’t happy.

  35. Migs @10.03pm..that era is an interesting one from a societal point of view. Women who would not ever have dreamed of working, and in the majority only the poorest of women were in the workforce, suddenly became valued as workers. Help win the war! became a catchphrase to encourage women workers to engage in the War Effort by such things as working in factories and the Women’s Land Army.

    However, after the war with the influx of ex-Diggers, it was back to the kitchen. The advertisements and television shows of the time reflect society’s expectation that a woman’s first priority should be to become the perfect cook, the perfect hostess. Exceptionally high expectations for women those days on the domestic front, as they were not only expected to be ‘presentation perfect’, but to be content, and to find mental stimulation from tasks which are basic skills, and which do not require much brain-power whatsoever.

  36. Roswell, do not upset a dairy cow..they are fearsome when roused. My worst is gobbler turkeys, when they swarm at you in a pack..you’re in trouble.

  37. Roswell and “A lot of the advice to youth these days favours being entreprenial rather than educational.”

    That’s the I’ll-just-get-a-job-in the-mines attitude. Perhaps it’s the get rich quick idea which is a part of human nature, well for some of us anyway.

  38. Roswell had a similar incident. My mother had bought this small herd of great big red cow with wide horns. I was about 8 at the time.

    I was sent out with my cousin to bring the milker in.

    We were near the edge of the malley when we heard them coming. I went up a near by tree. Where my boy cousin who was a little older went I cannot remember.

    What I do remember not being able to get down and a complete fool. Those cattle had no interest in us whatever.

    I tried many times over the next year or to, to climb that tree, with no success.

    Yes, it is the goose one has to be careful of. I fear it is the same in every day life as well. They are inclined to make a lot of noise and have a nasty bite.

  39. I spent a good deal of my childhood on a farm near Berrigan. It’s the same as it’s always been for country kids, especially for a second or third son get a job in town because the properties were too small to divvy up.

  40. Migs @ 10.03pm

    In the 1970s, as a result of intensive lobbying, women won the rights that they had preciously been excluded from, such as equal pay and equal opportunities. These contributed towards more of a gender balance in the workforce.

    And 30+ years later, this has been achieved? Of course not. It’s on paper that thou shalt not discriminate on the grounds of gender, or race, or sexual orientation, or disability..it’s getting close, but not quite there yet.

    The push for equality is never in a straight line, highs and lows.

  41. What was wonderful back in the 60 and 70/s was the advice that if we got equal pay we would not get work. The assumption was that the only reason we are allowed in the workforce, was because we were cheaper. It was assumed that we could not complete with men on a level playing field. How wrong they were.

    It was not only that we got less than 75% of male rates. All supervisory roles were reserved for men.

    I had a job in a factory that claimed to be equal pay. Funny the men got an allowance to lift weights. Funny, I never seen them lift more that me.

    It was not only in the workplace that women suffered. It also applied to all welfare benefits. Women’s rates were 75% of males.

    The funny thing is that the job market actually expanded for women after the introduction of the so called equal pay.

  42. Migs @6.43pm 17/2, that’s the sort of blind arrogant prejudice that makes my blood boil. Here’s a man with Mensa intelligence and intellect, denied the chance for an education and this country denied the enormous potential of his intellectual contribution to our society.

    Who knows what we have lost due to such arrogance and utter stupidity! He could have been our Einstein!

    It should also be noted that the Original Custodians were also denied the opportunity to join professions such as nursing, solely because of the colour of their skin.

    You may remember the details of the woman in question, which I unfortunately don’t. She was interviewed by the “Tiser on her retirement after a stellar career in nursing.

    She came from Ceduna, I think, and was accepted into the RAH nursing school based on her academic record, but was bluntly told when she turned up for her first interview that no matter how well qualified she was in any respect, legally she could not enter the nursing profession solely because she had black skin!!!!

    As it happened, that law was abolished in time for her to fulfill her ambition and SA had the opportunity to benefit from her contribution to our health and well being.

    It enrages me that this country has been denied the enormous contributions to our intellectual and other architecture based on pig ignorance! Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!

    Min, I guess the cruel foundation of the current poor stats in Original Custodian education is still manifesting itself. That blind, pig ignorant prejudice is still there and none too far below the surface.

    As a society, we must make every conceivable effort to ensure that every child, no matter their circumstances, is offered the best possible education they can receive.

    And that effort has to begin in the home. Families need easily accessible financial and health support systems. ATM, I think that although they are most likely available, they are probably pretty intimidating, particularly if you are already vulnerable and marginalised.

    I don’t claim ti have the solutions, but I reckon it may not be the delivery of help that needs to be fixed, but perhaps the initial contact needs to be more used friendly.. A good start may be for the staff to reflect the composition of the applicants.

    Pip @9.53pm, Jane Caro is spot on and has said it better by a mile than I have. This is the stuff which is deliberately kept out of the public eye by vested interests. It’s a disgrace that we seem to be headed down the US path of education funding.

    Observa, too true. It’s not what you know but who you know, still holds true. Wealth and privilege have always been the key to “success” particularly when they’re inherited ala Rupert and Kerry, also inheritors of family wealth, position and business empires.

    And although both men proved to be astute businessmen, their wealth and power allowed them to take the sorts of risks to improve their position, whereas people who are no doubt as astute, or even more so, are constrained by a lack of assets and cash with which they can absorb significant losses.

    I disagree that parents tend not to vote for the things which will advantage their children, but as we’ve seen recently in the US with health legislation, they can be surprisingly easily manipulated into voting against their and their children’s best interests.

    Migs @10.51am, sorry but I’m afraid your plans for extra retirement cash for Rolexes etc have been dashed by bleeding heart legislators! ;)

    CU @ 11.23am, how dare you suggest that these rough working class cannon fodder children are deserving of such looxuries as shelter from the midday sun, decent classrooms and unnecessary technology like computers? They’ll only break them!

    ……..to find mental stimulation from tasks which are basic skills,….

    Not even skills, Min and boring as shite into the bargain! No wonder Bex powders and Valium were so popular. It was the disease of the middle class which had ts origins in Victorian times.

    Having one’s wife and children flopping around the house doing needlework was a sign of financial means and success.

    In truth until then, women had always worked in one way or another and often on an equal footing with men.

    Peasant women toiled alongside their menfolk and there are records of women owning and running successful businesses and being accepted into guilds, in medieval England.

    Upper class women were often left in charge of the family estates while their husbands went off fighting in the Crusades or engaging in other squabbles like the Wars of the Roses and the Civil War, and did a mighty fine job of it.

    And there’s evidence that women were often at the centre of palace intrigues and manipulations, even in such constrained places as harems.

    Apparently there were even women who captained pirate ships very successfully.

    Min @1.01pm, particularly Jersey cows. They can be the fiercest of all and have no interest at all in taking prisoners.

    We had a cow called the Mad Major, who, when we unloaded her from the truck, ran straight over my father, breaking several ribs and ploughed straight through the fence and into the the small patch of scrub behind the yards!

    We would catch glimpses of her from time to time and woe betide anyone who got within cooee of her when she had a calf. Eventually, we managed to get her onto a truck and off to the butcher.

    She’d come from a station up north and had probably only had contact with humans on that one occasion. Not an auspicious beginning leading to a long and happy association. She was more aurochs than domestic animal, poor thing.

    Sadly, in retrospect, she was an animal whose only contact with humans had made her mad with fear and distrust but if she’d got to know my mother, she would have changed her opinion.

    My lovely mother had a way with animals as did her father. All the bulls we had were very protective of her. My husbandy substance has the same effect-animals like him.

    Funnily enough, all The Mad Major’s calves were very quiet sociable animals, who loved having their heads and behind their ears scratched, a service I was always very happy to provide as I am very fond of cows. Nothing like a good steak!

    Geese can be somewhat intimidating, Roswell although I do like them and got on very well with ours. Maybe the gander thought I was one of his wives. Chooks are my favourites, though.

  43. Jane, brilliant!

    And “Not even skills, Min and boring as shite into the bargain!”

    It’s no wonder that women who are into “shopping” and nothing more all have that strange fixated look…

  44. Gareth Malone’s Extraordinary School for Boys .. a “must” watch for ALL teachers (what an awful word!) … parents (of children of either gender) … and particularly anyone intersted in how people (not just kids) learn …

    While Gareth Malone’s task is to improve boys’ literacy skills … the same methodology could easily be applied to anyone …

    … and as mentioned above … Four Corners …Revolution in The Classroom …

    From the transcript …

    MATTHEW CARNEY: John Weeks has the funds to realise his vision, but state schools like Toronto High don’t. Knox Grammer (sic) gets about $20,000 per student, mostly from private fees. Toronto High gets about $11,500 per student, mainly from the New South Wales government. Included in this is federal government funding. It gives more to Knox – $1700 per student, compared to $1300 for Toronto.

    A calculator will give you some astounding astounding $$$$$$$$$$$$$ …

    http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/02/06/3421391.htm

    And more …

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-17/australian-students-lagging-regionally/3835232

    The problem is not just funding, it is resources, methodology, teacher training, understanding learning rather than “look at me teaching”, it is understanding assessment and outcomes … the whole sytem needs a massive shake-up … particularly the universities posing as teacher training colleges … and of course a National Curriculum, so that a child can cross the state borders of our COUNTRY and continue a learning stream …

  45. TB, there is no problem. It’s a matter of appreciation, that everyone is an individual..that there are No Rules.

    My crew all have IQs up in the moon and the stars, youngest…well you know Erin, about to complete her PhD in Molecular Bioscience at UQ. Yet none did particularly well at high school..my theory was that the school could teach my crew the curriculum, but then I would try to add to it..things that aren’t taugh in school.. archaelogy, history, judo, gymnastics, folk art, roller skating..you name it, it all adds to learning and to experience.

    Who is to say what learning should be, all is of value..

  46. ‘Who is to say what learning should be, all is of value..’

    True enough, but we are in the midst of a technological and communications revolution, and anything can happen.

    Young people today, no matter what their area of expertise, maybe forced to move sideways into a slightly different occupation, at least three times in their life.

  47. You whizzed through my links very quickly, Min …

    TB, there is no problem. … My crew all have IQs up in the moon and the stars

    There is a problem with schools, teacher training and application of learning strategies … and its not about “your crew” … its about all children and the ability to use whatever they have to the utmost … now …

    Teachers and ex-teachers have a tendency to have a “halo complex” and to stick their heads in the sand … and say there is no problem …

    The experts are saying there is … for a change, listen, rather than pontificate … I’ve provided you with some evidence …

    I understand about making thebest of what you have I didn’t go to high school … I was working at 14 …

  48. TB and “You whizzed through my links very quickly, Min …” Oh really, did I? Perhaps because I’ve read them all before. That’s my calling, a teacher EdPsych in case you’ve forgotten.

    “Teachers and ex-teachers have a tendency to have a “halo complex” and to stick their heads in the sand … and say there is no problem …” Oh really? Due to your vast, and extensive knowledge no doubt.

    You don’t have much of a clue do you. You are the one who pontificates..how much time have you spent as a disability advocate bashing one’s head against a brick wall trying to obtain the simplest of benefits for kids with disabilities.

    How many years did you spend working with people such as Dr Tony Attwood trying to get Asperger’s recognised as a ‘real’ disability and not just a ‘learning difficulty’ so that kids could receive anything approaching adequate assistance in schools.

    And finally ” listen, rather than pontificate”. Excellent choice TB.

  49. … I was working at 14 …

    And my father was a factory worker, nearly died when he was 18yrs, lost a finger when he was 19 on the factory floor, no workers comp in those days. I was working at 13, worked at Coles and in the local bakery and anything else where I could earn a shilling, got accepted into an Arts degree at Melbourne uni..I wanted to study archaeology, but couldn’t go because my parents couldn’t afford the fees. Therefore I became a teacher majoring in psychology.

    TB, there is no problem. … My crew all have IQs up in the moon and the stars

    Cute trick TB, taking my comment out of context.

    You complain that this blog doesn’t provide you with enough personal stimulation, that you prefer the ‘cut and thrust’ of elsewhere. So as Migs said, bring it on..or are you going to run back to you know where as the others do for a whinge…and OMG, how they whinge…and whinge..and whinge.

  50. Min, gauging the argument by the successes you’ve achieved with your kids, I’d say you’re in front on this one.

  51. Min, taking comments out of context is quite common from the GT crowd. Have you been there lately? It’s the ideal place to go and take a dump.

  52. How predictable, first TB swings by and accuses Min of pontificating, then right on cue in comes el grodo looking for trouble.

    Roswell they aren’t worth bothering with, and no I rarely look at Gutter Trash and when I have it’s been nothing but … gutter trash.

  53. Two left wing blogs still in dispute over Cultural Marxist issues. GT would appreciate your company, Roswell, but you prefer to lurk and say nought.

    —————————————-

    ‘Schools need more male teachers because boys make less effort in women’s classes, a new study claimed today.

    ‘The shortage of men in school staffrooms could be one reason for the under-achievement of boys, researchers found.

    ‘Female teachers tend to give boys lower marks than they deserve – and boys are less likely to work hard in their classes.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2102759/Why-boys-failing-grade-classroom-Lack-male-teachers-reason-according-new-study.html#ixzz1mjYWyZRx

  54. El gordo, I don’t bother lurking there, if that’s your word for visiting. It’s a very childish blog site that offers no intellectual stimulation. I’d rather debate you over here.

  55. el grodo, I’ve seen enough of GT to say without reservation, you and others there have an odd way of showing your appreciation of old friends!

  56. “I’d rather debate you over here.”

    I only have four portfolios: CC (without politics), Chinese politics, other aliens and Drug Law Reform.

    I lack the authority to run off at the mouth on other matters.

  57. El gordo, if I might add, everybody has a blogging home base and this is mine. I’m happy here. I like the people.

  58. ‘…odd way of showing your appreciation of old friends!’

    On a Saturday night, in the good old days before the split, TomR over at GT would hint that he’s off to the cafe to swap yarns and play music.

    I rarely joined in, but still lurked to soak up the ambience.

    ‘Intellectual stimulation’ out of the mouths of barrackers….I don’t think so.

  59. I’m sorry, el gordo, I missed what may have been an intended compliment, in that you thought I might be appreciated at GT. in the few times I’ve been there it has been rather obvious that newcomers are generally treated poorly. Personal abuse is the modus operandi. That’s not my scene and I find it childish. Sorry.

  60. El gordo you’re not grasping the obvious. Here I learn things. Does there have to be debate in order to learn?

  61. ‘….newcomers are generally treated poorly.’

    That’s not true, the GT troupe always encourage newcomers. Only barrackers get abused and deservedly, because they are pathetic.

  62. El gordo and..”Two left wing blogs still in dispute over Cultural Marxist issues. GT would appreciate your company..”

    You’re a bit of newbie aren’t you. Roswell has been with this blog since the start..where did you appear from BTW?

    Wow, a lack of male teachers in classrooms, that’s a new one..only been around for the last several decades.

    Lack of male teachers means underachieving boys..cos wimmens can’t understand boys. Surprisingly there are quite a number of women who have not only given birth to, but have nurtured male offspring unto adulthood, and quite successfully too I might add.

    Absolute CRAP about female teachers giving boys lower marks in class – how about male teachers giving girls lower marks in class. How about female teachers giving boys higher marks in class, or what about male teachers giving girls higher marks in class.

    Where to start with this..

    The old, and I do mean very old adage used to be that boys could not relate to a female in authority – that is, they could only learn from a male. The suggestion was that boys would never respect female teachers. This was then used to explain why boys were failing in class – it was because they had a female teacher.

    Yup, that theory has been floating around for the last couple of decades. At one stage they were thinking of “paying” men to go into teaching to try to address the gender imbalance in this occupation.

    Imagine it..if women were paid more to address the gender imbalance in other occupations.

  63. Roswell,
    Personal abuse is the modus operandi. That’s not my scene and I find it childish. Sorry.

    as per e g’s last crack,
    Only barrackers get abused and deservedly, because they are pathetic

    .

  64. El gordo and “‘….newcomers are generally treated poorly.’

    That’s not true, the GT troupe always encourage newcomers.”..

    As in encouraged to cut their own throats, you must be kidding…

  65. ‘Wow, a lack of male teachers in classrooms, that’s a new one..only been around for the last several decades.’

    Yep, and they are still talking about it. Maybe, just maybe, there is something in it.

    Forget your feminist political viewpoint and consider those poor boys failing to get a proper education.

    Or do you think most males are naturally thick?

  66. El gordo, please credit me with more intelligence.

    I see people like Tom R post here and I enjoy his humour and reading his links. Over at GT he gets called a fuckwit. Wow. Such intellect.

  67. El gordo, I’ve seen how you’re treated here and at GT. over there you’re treated second rate. Why do you accept that?

    You’re not a stupid person. They think you are.

    You have more to offer over here. I will always talk to you over here and will treat you with respect even though I’ve hardly ever agreed with you. This might incur the wrath of others, but I’ve always liked you.

  68. El gordo, the person who calls me a feminist is dead meat. OMG, I’ve made ‘a death threat’..better run back to the gutter to let them know allll about it..I’m certain that you will.

    Are you completely thick. That’s the sort of comments which are interpreted as ‘real debate’..the cut and thrust. I personally have always seen it as having an IQ only a little above sludge.

    Hell, a woman could not possibly educate a male child..no way, that can’t happen.

  69. el grodo, name calling seems to be your fall-back position

    Forget your feminist political viewpoint and consider those poor boys failing to get a proper education.

    You did mean “feminist” to be insulting didn’t you ?

    Just as you used “pathetic” earlier.

    About Tom R when over at GT
    Over at GT he gets called a fuckwit

  70. There is a lot in what TB says, but it is far from a black and white solutions.

    Much was in a documentary a couple of weeks ago, and as Min says is not new information.

    We should prepare ourselves for as onslaught of information and propaganda in the next few weeks. There will be many agendas being served in many articles.

    This government is looking at further high income welfare, and we know how those who have much, scream.

    TB, your attack on Min was a little hasty.

    If you follow the post, you will see that we have been looking at many sides and many sites.

    You rashly assume that th links you gave are new. I must say, I find that unusual for you.

    el gordo, I must say, I admire your persistence. I must say, I see very little Marxism on this site.

    If the site upsets you so much, why visit,

    I am also sure there are many more than two left wing sites on the web. I visit many more than that.

    I must say, I find it hard to label a site left wing, when it’s aim seems to be, attack of a woman Labor PM. I do accept I might be too harsh, and everyone is entitled to their own view.

  71. Cu, thank you. The easy option is to do the tired old, He said/she said thing. It takes far more concentration to read every comment, to read every link..to spare those moments to sit and consider the person’s words. And of course because we on the blogs are limited to only the printed word, then again we are very limited in how to express precise meanings.

    I think that is why some resort to the worst crimes of reasoned debate, the innuendo, the personal attacks; it’s because whether one is too lazy or doesn’t have the intelligence to analyse the points put forward, then these things are always ‘winners’. Well, not winners as such except for the egos of the attackers. As per the archetypal bully, those who use abusive language believe in their imaginations that they have ‘won’ via their ‘powers of persuasion’..all is illusion.

  72. If name calling is the alternative to groupthink, then I’d rather the groupthink. At least it has a degree of maturity about it.

  73. Min, I believe they become bored on the other side and come here for a little sport,

    I suppose no harm is done, if it keeps them happy.

    I am not joking about the next fight this PM is taking on.

    For someone paralysed and shaking in fear of the media and Mr. Abbott, she does not seem to know to keep her head down.

    I must say, if the PM did, it would mean that the government is unable to act.

    The education debate is one that is truly over due.

    There have been massive improvements in the last few years.

    The problem is, that our near neighbours in Asia are improving quicker.

    When one looks at the figures, One finds that they are not quite as bad as the headlines are yelling. That is nothing new.

    We seem to have our biggest problem with maths. Not so sure that poor teaching is to blame but that our kids take little interest in the subject.

    I do know that it is more than Mr, Pyne seems to believe, a problem that can be solved by handing out coaching vouchers.

  74. This debate will be better served by not making it a political football.

    I have never met a feminist yet that does not put education high on their list of essentials.

  75. Agreed,
    Roswell
    If name calling is the alternative to groupthink, then I’d rather the groupthink. At least it has a degree of maturity about it.

    Mud slinging is lost ground :grin:

  76. Cu, sad isn’t it that education should still be seen as a feminist issue. No I’ve never been a feminist either, it’s all about equal rights irrespective of gender, sexual orientation or race.

    I’ve stood up for women when they were not receiving fair treatment, likewise for men. I do not see that equality stops and ends with female/colored/gay.

  77. Min, they are far from won yet. Yes, things are better but injustices still remain.

    Sometimes we have to lose what we have to learn how much we had.

  78. From the conclusion in the paper above..

    ‘Moreover, in these times such problems are often understood to be attributed to the direct exclusionary effects of a feminist political agenda designed to promote the interests of girls.’

    This requires serious debate.

  79. El gordo and “..I expect a guest post from you on this”. That is actually an excellent idea, you may not be aware but Roswell wrote a number articles during the early days of the blog. Perhaps Migs can ask Roswell if he might have time in the future to write another.

  80. El gordo, be prepared to get your thinking cap on though..I believe that Roswell is quite knowledgable on this topic. Anyway, I think that it would be interesting..just a matter of whether or not Roswell is agreeable to this.

  81. Me too, Roswell.

    Although, if I come across anything of interest I will interrupt discussions on the Open Thread.

    There was something that happened last year which caught my notice, I’ll see if I can find it.

  82. TB, your attack on Min was a little hasty CU

    It wasn’t an attack and it wan’t hasty … I do neither … this “subject” has been broached before … and the CW Teachers Union flies to defence without considering the content …

    This is my original comment … (not including the video)

    Gareth Malone’s Extraordinary School for Boys .. a “must” watch for ALL teachers (what an awful word!) … parents (of children of either gender) … and particularly anyone interested in how people (not just kids) learn …

    While Gareth Malone’s task is to improve boys’ literacy skills … the same methodology could easily be applied to anyone …

    GMESFB VIDEO HERE

    … and as mentioned above … Four Corners …Revolution in The Classroom …

    From the transcript …

    MATTHEW CARNEY: John Weeks has the funds to realise his vision, but state schools like Toronto High don’t. Knox Grammer (sic) gets about $20,000 per student, mostly from private fees. Toronto High gets about $11,500 per student, mainly from the New South Wales government. Included in this is federal government funding. It gives more to Knox – $1700 per student, compared to $1300 for Toronto.

    A calculator will give you some astounding astounding $$$$$$$$$$$$$ …

    http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2012/02/06/3421391.htm

    And more …colleges … and of course a National Curriculum, so that a child can cross

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-17/australian-students-lagging-regionally/3835232

    The problem is not just funding, it is resources, methodology, teacher training, understanding learning rather than “look at me teaching”, it is understanding assessment and outcomes … the whole sytem needs a massive shake-up … particularly the universities posing as teacher training the state borders of our COUNTRY and continue a learning stream …

    This is, Min’s, reply …

    TB, there is no problem. It’s a matter of appreciation, that everyone is an individual..that there are No Rules.

    My crew all have IQs up in the moon and the stars, youngest…well you know Erin, about to complete her PhD in Molecular Bioscience at UQ. Yet none did particularly well at high school..my theory was that the school could teach my crew the curriculum, but then I would try to add to it..things that aren’t taugh in school.. archaelogy, history, judo, gymnastics, folk art, roller skating..you name it, it all adds to learning and to experience.

    Who is to say what learning should be, all is of value..

    Let me take each of Min’s “concepts” and explain why I then wrote my “angry” reply …

    TB, there is no problem. It’s a matter of appreciation, that everyone is an individual..that there are No Rules.

    There IS a problem and it is now being recognised throughout the Western WORLD!

    I DO appreciate that everyone is an individual … schools and teachers DON’T… if that were the case children would NOT be advanced through school classes by age and “commentary assessments” from teachers … often protecting their own jobs, demonstrating personality issues and favouritism …

    TEACHERS also need evaluating professionally on the job too …

    … and children need to be assessed on reaching particular competencies in each subject before being passed pushed onto the next age level … children should be assessed via competency levels … you may then just end up with children of different ages (but similar intellect) interacting to help each other learn rather than “waiting” for others to catch up …

    … or the “others” just giving up because they feel “different” …

    … individuals indeed … being left behind, or being bored silly ..

    … teachers could then be identified who have an affinity with different styles of learning …

    … that there are No Rules …

    Then there should be! children and workplaces need rules (a school is a workplace – BUT NOT a factory) …

    … ie “my child should not be moved on until he/she has reached a particular level of competence in a particular subject …

    … and If they haven’t, then I expect that the education department will provide necessary remedial expertise to assist my child” …

    … competency based learning assessment (founded in standards of learning capability and expected outcomes) highlight TWO issues … a learning issue with the learner … or a facilitation of learning issue with the “teacher” (education of children – pedagogy) or trainer (education of adults – androgogy) …

    My crew all have IQs up in the moon and the stars, youngest…well you know Erin, about to complete her PhD in Molecular Bioscience at UQ. Yet none did particularly well at high school..my theory was that the school could teach my crew the curriculum, but then I would try to add to it..things that aren’t taugh in school … archaelogy, history, judo, gymnastics, folk art, roller skating..you name it, it all adds to learning and to experience…

    Is it really about, Min’s Crew? Or My Crew or Your Crew? NO! It’s about the kids who are either too bright (and bored) or, not intellectually competent and struggling), being identified and being assisted, by engaging with learning professionals capable of understanding learning facilitation not or training or teaching … the concepts are opposed …

    Who is to say what learning should be, all is of value

    A common cry from teachers … it takes the pressure off their lack of ability to facilitate a common core of learning (ie a National Curriculum) …

    Children (and teachers) need a common set of skills and knowledge to survive in the world … (literacy, numeracy, geography, science and history – these are then broken into specialist fields … ie local, state, national and internation geography) …. when one in four adults are illiterate and the same number can’t do simple maths … there is a problem … the science, history and geography don’t even get a look in …

    http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Latestproducts/4228.0Main%20Features22006%20(Reissue)?opendocument&tabname=Summary&prodno=4228.0&issue=2006%20(Reissue)&num=&view=

    Thus my “attacking reply” … ( I won’t re-create, Min’s)

    You whizzed through my links very quickly, Min …

    TB, there is no problem. … My crew all have IQs up in the moon and the stars

    There is a problem with schools, teacher training and application of learning strategies … and its not about “your crew” … its about all children and the ability to use whatever they have to the utmost … now …

    Teachers and ex-teachers have a tendency to have a “halo complex” and to stick their heads in the sand … and say there is no problem …

    The experts are saying there is … for a change, listen, rather than pontificate … I’ve provided you with some evidence …

    I understand about making thebest of what you have I didn’t go to high school … I was working at 14 …

    Learning is my passion … I can assure there is nothing so emotional as having two adult miners, at nine o’clock at night struggling (and in tears) with an assignment and saying, “we can’t do this shit!” … four days later they were over the moon with what they had achieved …

    The last illiterate person I had to deal with was on a minesite … I had counselled him and arranged remedial help (a responsibility of Recognised Training Organisations) …I also had a meeting with senior management to discuss why he had been sent on one of my programs … their reasoning, “we thought he may have a problem — now we know for sure” … at the airfield as I was waiting to fly out … I was approached by the wife of the man I had assessed as incompetent … I waited for the tirade of abuse … she said “are you, TB, the bloke who just failed my husband?” … I replied, “yes ….” She said, “thank you so much … now we can get him some help” …

    My post was not about attacking anyone … but I do get angry at people who think they know best — all I did was highlight a problem and some solutions that seem to be successful … internationally …

    If Min knows so much … here’s a challenge … answered 24 hours from now …

    In Garethe Malone’s Extraordinary Boys School:

    1. What was the best result in the eight weeks?

    2. What was the result of the Roman Army clash on the oval and was it successful?

    3. What was the final exercise Gareth set the boys and who did they do it with?

    4. Who went on the sleepout?

    In the Four Corners Revolution in The Classroom

    1. What was the big turnaround in the State School?

    2. What gender was the teacher who was assessed at Knox, male or female?

    3. At Knox, was the teacher assessor male or female?

    4. What was the criteria used for success in all the schools?

    5. How many schools were included in the experiment?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    I see many of the replies to my original post immediately veered to the fact that I regularly post a GT (and, egg, followed up for me … GMAFB!) … therefore, what would I know … groupthink in action … very few posts actually addressed my original post …

    Migs, and I’m sure, Min, will assure you all, that I work ALONE!

  83. TB is, of course. on the money when it comes to educational insights. (sarcasm alert)

    For example, his oldest grandchild was way too smart for his teachers, as evidenced by his OP score which was towards the lower end of the average range.

    GMAFB!

    TB you really need professional help.

  84. I am not having a go at TB.

    When it comes to children, the only people who are incapable of looking after them, are those who are trained to do so. Well that seems to be a popular perception, which in my experience is a little stupid.

    Every man and his dog knows better than the experts.

    I am not only talking about teachers, but others such as child protection workers.

    This is in spite of university degrees and most continuing their education for many years.

    Most see child protection workers and teachers as a part of the problem..

    This, have never been able to understand. Most are in these roles because they want to be.

    Gone are the days, when many used the teachers college as a means of getting a tertiary education.

    Many would be surprised that when it comes to teaching and the protection of children, there are no black and white answers.

    There is no procedure or method that is the magic bullet.

    TB, there has always been a large number of adults that cannot read.

    There will be as many different solutions as there are many different types of children.

    There are many different ways of learning.

    The one thing for sure, there are no easy answers.

    The biggest hurdle will be over coming the problems thrown up by the back grounds they come from.

  85. Most people here share common beliefs. Is there a problem with that?

    No! But only at a superficial level, A little bit of examintion would surely find that the ‘common beliefs’ are not as ‘common’ as first thought and the ‘beliefs’ are … whatever.

  86. Indeed. Examination encourages diversity. Criticism encourages unity.

    Many people come here purely to criticise and when the defenders unite, it is called groupthink.

  87. Cu and “The biggest hurdle will be over coming the problems thrown up by the back grounds they come from.”

    I certainly agree with this, the parents’ attitude towards the value of education seems to be the most important thing of all. This is irrespective of which school and $s spent on an education.

  88. “Examination encourages diversity”

    Well it should.

    “Criticism encourages unity”

    Well if it does, then that might be an intellectual problem.

    Surely the ‘task’ is to avoid ‘groupthink’? (Given the perjorative meaning most people give to the concept under discussion).

  89. That would depend on the topic.

    I am often amused at some responses to my Indigenous threads. More than any other, these see me receive lots of private messages on how these are appreciated and that people learn from them.

    Then we have people commenting on them that we need to move on from the past. Well, the topics aren’t aimed at these people.

  90. Earlier this century I went to uni to become a primary school teacher, but lasted only three months.

    For ‘prack’ they sent me to the worst school and I spat the dummy, but not because of the delinquent children.

    My lecturers and tutors were either hardcore feminists or devout Christians….both groupthinks hated me with a vengeance.

    Although bitter at the time, in retrospect it seems perfectly reasonable to keep heretics out of the system.

  91. in retrospect it seems perfectly reasonable to keep heretics out of the system.

    I can just picture the ‘science’ lessons now.

    “Alright kiddies, put those pesky books away, and listen to what professor reinhart has to tell you, cos it’s the troof, and after that, we’ll have a lesson on how to stop that that pesky Kryptonite from gettin through to ya’”

  92. Tom, I don’t think they teach science in primary school. Besides, it’s not a subject el gordo is well versed in. Can you imagine her in a white lab coat swirling around a solution in a test tube?

    Please don’t agree with me. That’s groupthink.

  93. Migs, I hate be on the outer with the groupthink, but I think that a white jacket would look quite sweet on el gordo..nice little crystal buttons, red leather trim..

  94. For prac one always is sent to the ‘worst schools’, that’s the way they sort the wheat from the chaff, those who think that teaching is going to be some sort of cushy job – when in fact a teacher is going to be having to have to be dealing with 30 little individuals.

    Actually I always found the ‘worst schools’ contained the best kids.

  95. And thank you Minister Garrett:

    THE lion’s share of a proposed $5 billion annual boost in government funding for schools should go to the state system, according to a landmark report to be released today.

    After the most comprehensive review of school funding since the Whitlam era, the Gonski report will recommend that state schools – which educate 66 per cent of students – receive about 75 per cent of any new government funding.

    The higher percentage share for state schools would be in recognition of the fact that they educate the majority of disadvantaged students, including 80 per cent of those with disabilities.

    http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/political-news/more-money-for-state-schools-20120219-1th98.html#ixzz1mroz7ZqN

  96. elchaffo? :shock:

    Actually I always found the ‘worst schools’ contained the best kids.

    Remarkable how that occurs isn’t it Min. Unfortunately, they are usually drowned out by the outrages of the worst ones.

    It is also why these schools need more help than others, they cater for such a broad demography. It appears that under this arrangement, they actually receive the least.

    Meanwhile

    FFS, Mr Hawke of King’s School: not everybody who wants school funding fixed is “misled” by “left wing” arguments. Insulting.— R_Chirgwin (@R_Chirgwin) February 19, 2012

  97. … and it continues …

    The report by David Gonski will sound the alarm on Australian school performances and urge that education become more competitive internationally.
    “Australian schools need to lift the performance of students at all levels of achievement, particularly the lower performers,” the report, started 18 months ago, will say.
    “Australia must also improve its international standing by arresting the decline that has been witnessed over the past decade.”

    http://www.news.com.au/national/the-report-no-parent-can-afford-to-miss/story-e6frfkvr-1226275200010

    For example, his oldest grandchild was way too smart for his teachers, as evidenced by his OP score which was towards the lower end of the average range.

    GMAFB!

    TB you really need professional help.

    .. kill the messenger, and the message will die …

    1. Both my eldest grandchildren are university students (QUT & Cath Ed) … your comment (among other things) indicates that you think that OP scores are a child’s responsibility nothing to do with the teacher or system …

    (… what if all the OP scores were “average”?)

    2. The OP score is a statistical manipulation of high school student scores coupled with group scores of schools and calculated against available university places and past performances … it is an academic nonsense as anyone who understands it, will tell you … defended by the incompetent and/or ignorant … its been fought since the introduction of TE scores in Queensland … lazy universities trying to save money … whathappens if all studenst get an OP 1? That’s the difference between competency based learning and the subjective teacher assessment …

    TB, care to post, CBAs for ‘judgement’? Or indeed any other higher order concept

    Anon … Don’t know your background, don’t care … anyone who writes using acronyms certainly doesn’t understand the basics of communication … if your asking about qualifications and work experience … quite happy to lay them on the table if you do …

    Your nastiness would indicate another teacher defending his/her patch …

    CBAs = http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/CBA

    I’ll give you the same challenge … answer the questions I posted for Min, and then I’ll discuss the subject matter with you …

    I notice that the discussion veered onto the meaning (and a classic example) of groupthink …

    … not much interest in discussing the state of play in education in this country …

  98. I notice that the discussion veered onto the meaning (and a classic example) of groupthink …

    … not much interest in discussing the state of play in education in this country …

    I take your point, TB, but with due respects, in my Indigenous post you came in with the suggestion that we move on.

    In my opinion both are important subjects and deserve attention.

    BTW, you might be interested to know that my two degrees were obtained from a highly reputable university. ;-)

  99. For the record, I’m a free agent and its just a coincidence that TB is here at the same time.

    Roswell thinks the mob at GT HQ treat me like an idiot, so instead I come here to be treated like an idiot.

    Funny you should mention the science, Tom. I was in a tute with a known feminist and I casually mentioned that CO2 may not be the boogey man.

    Another idle moment of madness, I had forgotten that the educational wing of the Klimatariat was alive and well. She glowered (sic) and then I realised it was one more nail in my coffin.

  100. Groupthink is actually highly relevant to the topic. Many accuse teachers not allowing for independence of thought. I agree in that a curriculum is always set, however the better teachers encourage things such as research, so as to provide factual evidence to support an opinion.

    Groupthink suggests that the person or group of people run with the herd instead of having researched so as to form their own opinion. Groupthink is far more likely to occur where people believe the headlines instead of seeking out alternative opinions.

  101. “Australia must also improve its international standing by arresting the decline that has been witnessed over the past decade.”

    True. But not an easy prospect with the forces arrayed against it.

    I’m not sure what is being taught in Uni’s these days, but, I do know that any system that successfully sorts the chaff out as in the case with grodo, cannot be all bad.

  102. I casually mentioned that CO2 may not be the boogey man.

    If you had tried to back that statement up with any of the laughable ‘evidence’ you push here, I’m surprised they let you anywhere the kiddies.

  103. Hmmm! el gordo being swirled around in a test tube. Now that’s something I’d pay money to see!

    Min @10.29am, I am in group think with you and Catherine Deveny All power to the hive mind!! lol

  104. From the link within the link at Mins

    Parents who have invested big money in having their children featherbedded into university places and designer-branded into school-tie corporate networks hedge their bets by denigrating government schools. Competitive advantage is the name of the game. And it’s a zero-sum game. Most parents realise this.

    Soon after my comments at Scotch, the Liberal scheme to give hefty subsidies to wealthy private schools went before the Senate. Labor could have rejected it and forced an election on the issue of education. Polling indicated it would have romped home. Instead, it approved the bill, muttered its customary weasel words and sat on its hands until the Tampa hove into sight.

    In the three years since, Labor appears to have learned nothing.

    http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/05/1094322640295.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

    I said it way back when, and it is the same today, many parents have invested their kids into this Ponzi scheme. Rolling it back is going to politically harmful, yet it is necessary. Let’s hope Labor have now learnt something.

  105. Tom, I would suspect that a majority of parents will not be effected by this – not many can afford the $40,000pa which Geelong Grammer charges.

    The old argument was that fees would have to rise should the federal government invest less in private schools..but that’s never stopped the fees from rising.

    I was often asked by parents whether or not they should consider sending their child to an expensive private school. My recommendation was that unless you think that you will be able to afford 6 years x 3 kids, to opt with the local high school. That if they wanted to do anything to enhance their child’s education, the money was better spent on other educational activities such private music tuition.

  106. Min mentioned earlier that pracs are hard to illustrate its not all beer and skittles.

    As the reporter on the spot I can say that the young Canadian girls (imports) got all the good schools, beacuse they pay top dollar.

    Fair and equitable, the Aussie girls were not that far behind..

  107. Min, it is not the upper crust private schools that is the problem imo (although, they are receiving basically money for nothing, it is simply profits to them)

    It is the abundance of these cheaper private schools that cropped up everywhere. Many from our local school have been transferred to these ‘private’ schools, and the parents have mortgaged themselves to the hilt to do it. Withdrawing the Governmnet HANDOUT to these schools will cause many of them extreme financial difficulties (I see it as facing the facts that they cannot.should not be sending their kids to a ‘private’ school)

    Politically though, poison, from a Government who have minus political weight to bare.

    The truth is, these cheaper ‘private’ schools don’t actually re-leave any ‘burden’ from the public system, they add to it, by competing against it for dwindling resources (mainly teachers)

    The ‘grants’ that these rich, private schools receive is just an abomination, nothing more, nothing less.

  108. Hello el gordo. I’d like to be able to tell you more about my encounter but I’m only aware of it through flashbacks. One day I might undergo some regressive hypnotherapy to check it out. They’ve been with me a long time.

  109. Tom, sadly these parents are often..well, basically..sucked in by the advertising, the promise of a ‘superior education’.

    I have known of many instances where after having paid mega for 5 years education that parents were told to move their child ‘elsewhere’, as being not one of the top performers, this child’s (assumed) marks would bring down the school’s average for the HSC. Public schools of course have to accept all comers, including children with disabilities.

  110. More on the Gonski Report..

    The panel found that the funding between government and non-government schools should be better balanced, recommending a new “schools resources standard” (SRS), which would allocate a base funding rate for each student, with additional loadings for areas of disadvantage. Under this model, schools with a high proportion of indigenous, low-income or disabled students would be funded at a higher rate.

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/political-news/surplus-before-schools-as-gonski-report-decries-student-disadvantage-20120220-1tin1.html#ixzz1msubDQbv

  111. Yes Min, friends of ours are just coming to this realisation now. Unfortunately, probably too late for them.

    Meanwhile, WTF!!

    Needs-based funding?Welcome back to Whitlam…— Malcolm Farnsworth (@mfarnsworth) February 20, 2012

  112. Tom, former neighbors of mine just about hocked the ranch to send their daughters to a private school in Brisbane. The elder did well, the younger one hated every moment of it, and so the family moved back to Mullumbimby. The younger who was supposed to be not academically inclined excelled for Yr 12 at good old Mullum.

  113. El gordo, to a certain extent that’s true however this has shown to be far less relevant now than in the past. This once again relates to parental attitude. A dominant male head of the household who shows little respect for females is likely to pass this attitude onto his sons. A more egalitarian household is likely to respect both males and females, and so boys have a far more positive attitude about learning from females.

  114. Obviously iggorance is bliss … then defensive posts are a disappointment … rather than a discussion of the issue(s) …

    our your children are not being encouraged to learn …

    I take your point, TB, but with due respects, in my Indigenous post you came in with the suggestion that we move on.

    In my opinion both are important subjects and deserve attention.

    As do I, Migs! And both issues are related … in that they are stuck in the past … we must move forward … not entrench ourselves in the past …

    BTW, you might be interested to know that my two degrees were obtained from a highly reputable university

    As was mine, Migs, as you know … ;-)

    In conclusion … because I see no point in continuing …

    … there IS a problem in our education system … it is only now being recognised …

    … and it is not an issue of funding or resources … it is one of facilitating learning by professionals who have been trained to understand the process of individual and group learning needs … as opposed to teaching (walk and talk) methods used since the 19th Century …

    … it might be time for me to renew my blue card … judging by the responses on this thread …

  115. TB, you beat me here by two minutes.

    I’m going to keep writing Indigenous posts. Some people enjoy them. I enjoy writing them.

    It’s baffling that you’re always very critical of the Cafe yet you don’t appear to have any problems with the utter bullshit that gets trumpeted on a daily basis by those idiots over at gutter trash.

    I went over there today for a look. OMG the stench. It isn’t only the gutter, it’s the shithouse as well.

    What a disgrace that pile of shit is. You come across as a bloke with too much intelligence and ethics to mix with those bitter and twisted turds.

  116. On the issue of “chalk and talk”. I haven’t know this to be a typical teaching method for a very long time..perhaps there might be some individual teachers who find this a method which suits their own style better.

    The formal authority – someone who I would call the ponficator, insists that the students do it their way, their way being the only way. This tends to be the least effective style because it does not take the students on the journey.

    I always preferred student-centered learning as it encourages initiative. However, it does require the class to consist of predominantly responsible students.

  117. Migs, you need to read some of the response above aimed at me and mine …

    Logic abounds in neither camp I’m afraid … GT houses mainly right wing extremists … CW left wing …these days I’m neither … and that is a sad state of affairs for I supect there are more like me, than here, or there …

    I confess I had hoped for a serious discourse on a subject dear to my heart … in a field I spent most of my career in … as, Liam Neeson’s, character said, in, “Taken”, the other night … “I’m retired, I’m not dead” …

    Posting here, I seem to be harried with guilt by association … there I enjoy the silliness of some of the arguments …

    It’s baffling that you’re always very critical of the Cafe

    I think if you analyse that statement, its when I’m dismissed as “one of them” … or in the case above “there is no problem” when there is a problem and demonstrably so … and with possible solutions provided as links … followed inevitably by some personal attack on me or mine … shifts the game from the paly to the player … and you and Min, of all people should be aware that I’m quite able to mix it with dickheads and arsholes … I try not to do that these days … and I’ve left certain comments alone … (actually I think I’ve been rather constrained compared to some of my earlier “hits” back in Bogocracy days)

    … yet you don’t appear to have any problems with the utter bullshit that gets trumpeted on a daily basis by those idiots over at gutter trash.

    I think historical records would dispute that statement … anyway its my choice … maybe I like the challenge of refuting some of the BS … and surprisingly every once in a while there IS a change of opinion … and I confess on my part too …

    And BTW, I don’t HAVE to take sides between GT and CW … as they know and now you and your regulars do too …

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Migs, I would expect you to continue with your Aboriginal threads, why not? Nothing to do with me … and I agree, many people find them interesting … including me … that’s why I posted a reply …

    Just as I will continue posting on any issues relating to developments in human learning … it probably won’t be at, CW, though …

  118. El gordo, we don’t need a show of hands. Just look at all the people who used to post comments at gutter trash who now no longer go there.

    It has something to do with the level of abuse fired at them. It wears real thin after a while.

    And they blame me. :roll:

  119. El gordo, I’ll never comment there because of the attitude of some, but I do read many of the comments. I like reading King Rat’s financial comments. He is far wiser than me on such matters.

    I like that girl with her finger stuck up in the air. Can’t remember her name.

    Naturally, you’re my favourite.

  120. This is one disaster in my opinion that we need to lay the blame at the feet of Whitlam.

    Australia is a leader in the OECD not only for the difference in outcomes between our wealthiest and poorest students, but also for the way we have created ghettos of privilege and underprivileged in our schools. Under our current hybrid system of publicly subsidised private and publicly subsidised public schools, if an Australian child is born disadvantaged, he or she is much more likely to go to a school with kids who are equally disadvantaged (and vice versa) than a child born in any other similar country.

    Worse, we have another dubious claim to fame. According to a report from the Grattan Institute, we are the only country in the OECD where education achievement has fallen — i’ve slipped from 3rd in the OECD for reading to 7th, for example — while education spending has increased. This has led to some knee jerk comment that money is not the answer. But what I think the evidence is pointing to is that money is not much help if you spend it in the wrong places.

    And this seems to be what the Gonski Review has also recognised.

    It acknowledges that we have been over-investing public money in kids who are already well-resourced and achieving highly — where we see little return for our money. It acknowledges that we have been critically under-investing in kids who are poorly resourced and under-achieving, where more teachers, better resources and intensive (and

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/02/21/gonski-can-help-us-change-direction

  121. As I get older, I sometimes think that the line between a good outcome and a bad one is wafer thin. I am sure Whitlam had no intention of creating the inequality and loss of opportunity for poor kids that were the results of him grabbing a golden political opportunity. He could not have envisioned the snowball effect that one lousy decision would have had.

    But the price Australia has paid is high.

    Middle class parents are torn by the stress and difficulty of choosing a school and many of them are spending large sums of money they can ill afford on school fees. Worse, their children’s results are not only not improving compared to students in more equitable education systems. They are actually going backwards.

    As a nation, we are depressing our ability to compete globally over the long term by failing to develop all our potential talent. But the highest price is being paid by our most vulnerable and disadvantaged children in terms of their lost opportunities.

    http://newmatilda.com/2012/02/21/gonski-can-help-us-change-direction

  122. Cu re “This has led to some knee jerk comment that money is not the answer. But what I think the evidence is pointing to is that money is not much help if you spend it in the wrong places.”

    Precisely the point. It’s a matter of value for money, one can spend a lot with not much to show for it – a new parquetry floor, or new costumes for the drama club – compared with computers in schools or a hall/teaching space to conduct remedial English classes.

  123. The sad part is that parents now believe they have to put themselves into debt to get a decent education for their children, this should not be so.

    It is the same with health. Families live in fear of getting sick. This fear is not necessary.

    You do not make any system strong by taking away from the vulnerable to give to the strong. The bright child will flourish anywhere.

    Even at the worse school, most of the pupils thrive.

    I was listening to a conversation in the bus yesterday. A few people got on the bus, not white Australians or Vietnamese for that matter.

    I think I knew your husband at Cabramatta…. The bloke then went onto give his school history. He looked young but had a seventeen old daughter with a baby on the way.
    sHe said I started off at Fairfield Catholic Primary School.

    Not a bad school, as a young person I did some assistant teaching there. He said I went onto the Brothers in the area.

    What followed was interesting, he then went to Liverpool High, a very bad school.

    Well in those days. I was tempted to ask, why after spending most of his school days in the Catholic system, why he ended up at such a bad school, which by the way he left as soon as he could.

    Capitol Hill. Lovely comment. The PM wanted talk about education reform. That was not on. Whose fault is that.

    What about the people who are interested in this reform.

  124. Precisely the point. It’s a matter of value for money

    That is really the key I think Min. I can see this debate getting dragged down to. ‘it’s not money’, and, as I have already seen the Government saying ‘we’ve put X amount of dollars” .

    It is far more complicated than that.

    Which is why I would assume the Governmnet is not commiting to anything specific yet.

  125. Someone said if you believe this is a great amount of money, take a peek at the increase in Gina’s income in the last year, which is much greater than 5 billion.

    I believe one would start at where we are not getting the best value for th dollar now.

    Mr. Garrett made a statement that no private school would be worse off. I think he should have added whether they deserve the money or not.

    The argument should be, where is the dollar better spent.

  126. and a matter of reverse class envy that this country has been prone to since Mr. Howard’s reign.

    When I was a child, most adults believe it was dishonorable to have to take a pension. My grandfather in his seventies refused to do so. He still managed to make pocket money with his small market garden.

    My mother took it into her own hands and tricked him into signing the papers.

    He did not touched that money as far as I know. It accumulated. and gave it to my mother to build a house that was badly needed on my father’s farm.

    It was seen as a disgraced and failure to take government handouts.

    I do not wished to go back to that time, but the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

    Both my grandfathers lived with us.

  127. One point is that if we are seeing a decline in standards with the current funding arrangements, then surely this is an indication that money can be better deployed.

    However I believe that rather than it being just all about money, that a decline is better looked at from a societel point of view…both parents working and computer games come to mind.

  128. The media is justifying their behaviour and are saying why the polls are low, the matter will continue.

    I wonder what the polls would be saying, if the media pulled back a little.

    Everyone is telling the PM what she has to do. Makes one wonder, who agenda they are placing this advice on.

  129. Cu, the headlines are a joke, one after another, and none of them worth reading to the end.

    Yellow press is what we are dealing with, or should that be black press ….potato potarto …. it’s all crap!

  130. The same thing applies to any/all goverrnment media releases, Genuine analysis is not an option for the MSM…..the problem being that it’s good news about the government reforms and we can’t have that can we!

    Whiny Panes favourite complaint for many months has been that the computers for schools delivery wasn’t up to scratch.

    The bad news for Mr. Pane is that the scheme has been vey successful.

    http://www.psnews.com.au/Page_psn3015.html

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