ARE WE AT LAST SEEING THE NEW WORLD ORDER?

What has gone on for the last couple of weeks?  Have we been observing a PM following a President around, like an adolescent?

Have we been witnessing a President of the USA, and our PM addressing very serious issues that are emerging in the world?

Is it just about a couple of thousand troops playing was games for six months of the year, as occurs now, or is it about much more?

Maybe it is more than that.  Maybe it is about positioning ourselves to be a part of the rising trade and economies of Asia.

It has been said, our PM has always been pro American.

Are we now witnessing the new world order that has been evolving since the fall of the USSR in the 1980’s?

At the same time, there have been declines in the economies of Europe and America.

Have we a USA President and PM with the guts and foresight to grab the opportunities available with both hands?

I do not believe we have seen the new world order that many predicted back in 1980’s.  Some seen the future as America being the winner and would rule supreme.   I have never believed this would happen.  I believed at that time, a there would be a decline in the USA, as in the USSR.

I believed at that time, the USA would go the way of the USSR.  I did not see America remaining the supreme ruling power.  I saw power becoming more dispersed, among many countries.

I have not seen much evidence to say I was wrong since then.

Are we on the edge of a sea change?

Where are the media analyses and stories that attempt to tell us what is going on?

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Bali talks this weekend.

Maybe I am just a dreamer.

What do others think?  Is the world in flux of change?  If it is, is that a bad thing, especially for Australia?

78 comments on “ARE WE AT LAST SEEING THE NEW WORLD ORDER?

  1. Is our PM visionary or is it all spin?

    “………….Prime Minister Julia Gillard says we are living in the “Asian century” as the US and Russia join the East Asia Summit for the first time.

    The ASEAN summit begins in Bali today after a gala dinner last night to welcome the delegates from the 17 attending countries………….

    ………”Because it acknowledges the shift in economic power to the East is not a temporary phase but a long-term development,” she said.

    She also encouraged the other leaders to promote economic growth by opening up more free trade in the region.

    She told them the trade deal with Australia and New Zealand was the most comprehensive ASEAN had ever negotiated.

    “A gold standard regional trade agreement. By opening up our markets to each other, we are creating a trading group with a combined population of 620 million people involving some of the fastest growing economies on earth,” she said………”

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-11-19/gillard-hails-asian-century-as-asean-begins/3681574?WT.svl=news1

  2. ‘Are we on the edge of a sea change?’

    Yes, Europe’s primary income will come from Chinese tourism and of course sea level is set to fall, but that’s another story.

  3. Guys. you are reading way to much into the visit.
    The performance by our skank Prime Minister is limited to her interest in [edited for racial vilification reasons].

  4. Definition of skank: Skanking is a form of dancing practiced in the ska, ska punk, hardcore punk, reggae, and other music scenes. The dance style originated in the 1950s or 1960s at Jamaican dance halls.

    I didn’t know that our PM was known for her Jamacian style dancing, you learn something new every day.

  5. CU, excellent post and the issues are well worth considering. I defer to your knowledge of Australian politics, but wasn’t this all envisaged by Paul Keating..that was his ‘big picture’. Australia’s future, economic and strategic was the Asia-Pacific region.

    However, I do not think that at the time that Keating could have possibly envisaged the sudden demise of the United States due to the GFC etc, but considered the US an integral part of things when he said Pacific region.

  6. Rasa, that is the question I am asking. Is there more going on.

    I have a gut feeling there is.

    I fail to understand why there needs to be name calling.

    Tells us why we are reading to much into what is occurring today, across the world, economically speaking.

  7. Min, I agree. I think the so call narrative that the PM is now putting forwarded at this time should make Mr. Keating happy.

    I was at uni in the 1990’s and it was seen by some that there would be demise of the USA as the only ruling power.

    The demise has not been sudden, in my opinion. It has been happening for decades.

    Capitalism in my opinion appears to have to collapse, to rebuild itself.

    The GFC are only symptoms not causes.

    I am only putting forwarded my gut feelings and maybe opinions. I am no expert and fully expect to be torn to pieces. I hope with reasons and facts not name calling.

  8. ‘Would it be a bad thing for Europe to cater to Asian tourism.’

    No, it will be good news all round. The shift in economic power to the East is how capitalism will be saved and the irony is that the Communists will be running the show.

  9. CU, I think that the demise of the US came suddenly..far quicker that could have possibly been imagined.

    There have always been fluctuations, from the innovations and rapid expansion of the early 20th Century to the absolute failure of the economy during the depression. The Great Depression was of course also caused to large extent by Bank Failures.

    However, this time around America having progressed from a largely agrarian economy to a consumer based economy, there is nothing to fall back on.

    I believe that the catalyst for this was George Bush’s War in Iraq and the billions spent on that ‘adventure’. Little did George W Bush know that waiting for him, and just around the corner was the GFC.

  10. el gordo, you could be right, but I suspect there will be very little marx.

    It appears that the free market rules.

    Capitalism appears to work OK under a dictators.

  11. Min, I think one will find that after each war since the Korean, there has been major economic disruption.

    What surprised me that it took so long for the Iraq was to cause problems.

    I suspect the USA problem is that it relies on pure capitalism It is not a very fair country to live in. A little socialism seems to blunts the extremes of the free market.

  12. ‘Capitalism appears to work OK under a dictators.’

    Yes it does, but this is the only example (to my knowledge) where the dictatorship of the proletariat is still active, while at the same time fully immersed in capitalism.

    The children of the Communist leadership have been paying lip service to the idea of democracy, perhaps for foreign consumption, with political change likely to begin at Local Council level.

  13. The US empire is in decline for the same or similar reasons the Roman Empire went into decline. Powerful individuals put their own selfish interests ahead of the needs of the country.

    Look at the tea party fanatics, they are in the very wealthy category but resent paying any income tax. This group are quite comfortable bringing on gridlock in the US political system to get the kind of government they want. Likewise the right wing dominated Liberal Party – tear down everything no matter how useful and blame the Labor government for non achievement.

    In the end it will all come down to how quickly countries can adapt to economic, political and social change. Conservative thinkers are trying to steer the ship of state by look back at the wake.
    Pining for the good old days when we made a ship load of money on the stock exchange is not going to cut it for the next ten years.

  14. Good questions Cu,
    Have we a USA President and PM with the guts and foresight to grab the opportunities available with both hands?

    That would be a “yes” !

  15. Thank you, Catching up. We can only trust that the common values which the President spoke of in our Parliament will prevail. His presence here, a great black American, standing alongside our Prime Minister, a fine and strong woman, was testament to the potential for change in the world. Fifty years ago, even more recently, I could not have envisaged that. Hoping for a better world which would see an independent Angola in a position, and of a mind, to offer financial assistance to its former colonial master, Portugal, would indeed have been audacious,

    I was feeling down this morning and thinking that if America used its freedom and the right to vote to elect another Republican even more foolishly right wing than Bush jr. there was no hope for them or the free world. Just as here if all we do with our democratic rights like freedom of the press is destroy the common good and promote the vested interests of the few by preferring someone like Tony Abbott as our PM what hope is there for our vast and too arid continent?

    But Barack Obama is right encourage us to hope. The changes you point to and others have suggested here have given me a lift.

    (My first coffee of the day has helped a bit!)

  16. Marriage of equality is a core value for all to hold dear

    http://m.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/marriage-of-equality-is-a-core-value-for-all-to-hold-dear-20111118-1nn28.html

    patricia wrote
    We can only trust that the common values which the President spoke of in our Parliament will prevail. His presence here, a great black American, standing alongside our Prime Minister, a fine and strong woman, was testament to the potential for change in the world.

    and who could have envisaged an article like this being published:-

    When my parents married in 1967, Australia was still dismantling the White Australia policy. While a marriage between a Chinese man from Malaysia, and an Australian from the Adelaide Hills was not illegal, it was certainly unusual. Nevertheless, bans on inter-racial marriage were not unknown in Western democracies of the time.

  17. luna, I feel that we have been going through time in a stupor.

    We now have a USA President and our PM, telling us the world has changed.

    Whether they are right or wrong is another matter.

    I think we need to start listening.

    We need some direction from the media, not stories about non existent feuds and alleged adolescent stories about the PM.

    We have heard so much about the PM not having a narrative.

    What is the Coalitions narrative?

    “In the end it will all come down to how quickly countries can adapt to economic, political and social change. Conservative thinkers are trying to steer the ship of state by look back at the wake.”

    We have a exciting opportunity to be a part of the new world order. If we do not change, we will be sitting on the sideline, looking in.

  18. Pip and Patricia, maybe it is just talk but I hope not.

    Looking back at the PM being a little out of breathe. Maybe the PM was aware of what was being proposed.

    It is a battle the PM has to win, for the good of Australia.

    What amazes me, is that the media has not cottoned on to what has occurred since Hawaii.

  19. Cu,
    about the PM sounding nervous at the beginning of her speech, a journalist who speaks on local radio here, from Canberra, said that she had just walked up a flight of stairs…

    I don’t know whether he was being funny or not, but I don’t think it would have been an issue if it was Tony Abbott or, better still, Joe Hockey …

    As for the media not cottoning on to the important issues, is anyone surprised ?

    The “Occupy” gatherings around the world, and the “Arab Spring” are routinely ‘written down’, and stomped on by the authorities in many places, because the “1%” would have the status quo remain, despite it’s failures

    .

  20. Pip, I believe that the PM was out of breath before approaching the podium. I believe most of the journalist were aware of the fact.

    I thought at first that PM had got the heavy cold all the men seemed to have around her.

    I am waiting with trepidation of all the questions the Opposition is going to ask.

    I am joking of course..

  21. …and Bonsai is doing his bit …I wonder was it another ‘invitation only’ affair.

    Howard chips in as LNP rows

    http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2011/11/19/john-howard-chips-in-as-lnp-rows-mal-brough/

    FORMER Prime Minister John Howard gave a glowing endorsement of Mal Brough’s return to politics as LNP members slammed Peter Slipper’s decision to host Kevin Rudd at Kawana yesterday.

    Mr Howard told more than 450 people at a campaign launch for state candidate John Connolly that he wanted to see Mr Brough back in Canberra representing the Coast.

  22. For never let us hold their banner, sigh

    http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/for-never-let-us-hold-their-banner-sigh-20111118-1nn4b.html


    And America? There is now a Grand Canyon of disparity between rich and poor, with the savings of the middle class plundered by the thieves of Wall Street, and millions out of work. In the 70 years since Darlene’s birth in 1941 the United States has been constantly at war around the planet. When he left the White House in 1961, President Dwight D. Eisenhower, who knew what he was talking about, had warned of “the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex”, but nobody had listened.</i.

  23. Howard should be careful not to promote Brough too much in Slipper’s neck of the woods. He could push Slipper onto the cross benches for a last hurrah, playing it like Windsor, and even a chance at some post Parliamentary career goodies courtesy of the next Labor govt.. Remember how Julia Gillard finessed him into the Deputy Speaker’s job and from Day 1 showed herself to be so good at playing games in Canberra? A quote from me, was it over a year ago?

    Hunt the Slipper

    Do you remember the state of play
    On that hung Parliament’s first sitting day?.
    Both sides were playing hard, ‘Hunt the Speaker,’
    With Tony strong, Julia looking weaker.
    With her lead on votes whittled down to one
    He planned other moves to bring her undone.
    He’d had some setbacks in the days before
    When Somlyay might have improved her score.
    Then Peter Slipper was briefly lost
    And Tony thought he’d been double crossed.
    But Slipper reappeared, and on the day
    The Speaker’s game, it seemed, went Tony’s way.
    Then in the second round everything changed.
    Somehow secretly Julia had arranged
    To play her own game, though still by the rules.
    She beat Tony’s team, made them look like fools.
    Her win this time, for which we thank heaven,
    Was not by one, but a majority of seven!
    That Deputy Speaker vote, what a ripper!
    Julia’s real good at playing games! Specially ‘Hunt the Slipper!’

  24. Mr. Brough, the man responsible for taking the army in during the Intervention.

    The man who thought it was a good idea that doctors examine all the children for sexual abuse. Lucky for the children, the doctors refused.

    The man who sent out teams of doctors, at great cost, to medically examine children who were already under medical supervision.

    The man that Mr. Howard has deemed to be PM.

  25. Good, thought provoking post, CU.

    CU, Rasa is one of those very unpleasant creatures commonly known as a RWDB, the word common in all its nastiest connotations being the operative meaning here.

    This is dingbat reaction to seeing their hero Sir Liealot the Negative, sliding down that slippery slope into the abyss of political oblivion owing to his lack of ability, nous and judgement, which until lately has been deliberately ignored by the msm.

    Unfortunately for Liealot, the Liars Party and their cheerleaders, the magnifying glass of scrutiny is being applied and they’ve been found wanting in every area except lies and negativity.

    If you saw the Hamster Wheel the other night, where the Chaser Chaps showed how pathetic and downright disgusting these people are, led by the likes of that execrable creature, Anal Jones, you would not be surprised at the attack on our PM by someone who is probably one of Jones’s most devoted fans.

    Suck it up, Rasa. Your mob is under the microscope and has been found wanting in every area.

    CU, in response to your post, I think the fate of the US was linked with that of the USSR and although the collapse of the USSR was rapid, I think the US has been going into a slow decline since then.

    Several things have contributed to its current state, I think. Reaganomincs with its lack of regulation of financial markets and pandering to the uber wealthy at the expense of the lower end of the US economy was the beginning point, and successive US governments have continued this pattern, culminating in the collapse of Bear Stern, Lehmann Brothers etc and now Goldman Sachs looking dodgy.

    Two extremely expensive wars have also contributed nothing to support the sagging economy

    Have the GOP, the uber wealthy or the Tea party learned anything at all from what has transpired in the last few years. The answer is an emphatic NO. They’re demanding extensive tax cuts for themselves, despite already being under taxed.

    All of them could pay 50% income tax and still be wealthy beyond anybody’s (except the uber wealthy) dreams of avarice!

    They’re set to continue their destructive demolition of the US economy, because they figure they’ll never be touched by reducing the 90+% of the population to penury.

    And as lunalava, Pip, patricia and others have mentioned, the focus is now on the Asia Pacific region. This will be the financial powerhouse of the near future. Anyone who scoffs at that idea does so at their peril. And that’s where the uber wealthy in the US will quite possibly meet their downfall.

    I’m sure they think it will be business as usual if they can get rid of Obama and install a tame Tea Party or GOP president. But the world has moved on and they are the ones living in the past.

    Great pome, patricia.

    Min, pity the GOP and their cheerleaders haven’t got a grain of your foresight and wit!

  26. “I think the fate of the US was linked with that of the USSR and although the collapse of the USSR was rapid, I think the US has been going into a slow decline since then. ”

    I believe you are correct. I believe both ideologies are flawed.

  27. Your reference to Reaganomics is spot on Jane, as a turning point in US fortunes, or rather, the misfortunes that would beset the 90% over the subsequent 30 years.

    That was the death knell of the social compact both parties had previously acknowledged and supported during the (Keynesian ?) golden age from the end of WW2 to about 1980.

    In death it coughed up the deranged eponyme Newt Gingrich, and later his ill-begotten progeny the Tea Party and now Australia has own little jug-eared Pretender. The prevailing leitmotif is ruthless dedication to self-interest.

    The question I often wonder about is this awful episode itself now in its own death throes and are we about to see a return to more egalitarian times. The portents from Europe are not promising on this score.

    I was flicking through Keating’s new book “After Words” in a bookshop this morning (wondering if I could wait for the sales) and opened at a speech addressing some of these issues, as well as some others Min was discussing in her earlier comments this morning. Looks like a damn good read.

  28. Miglo,
    in answer to your question to MJ, I doubt it…..that’s what happens when
    people plant toxic bushes in the White House garden.

    If a quarter of the money borrowed to prosecute the two wars had been spent on the needs of the American people, they wouldn’t be in the decline they are in now, and their debt and deficit would be manageable !

  29. MJ, I think it’s going to take some considerable time and effort to rid the West of the toxic ideologies of Thatcherism and Reaganomics and the cult of Howardism in this country with their

    ruthless dedication to self-interest.

    It’s an attitude which still infests this country and is being reinforced daily by the conservatives and their cheerleaders in the mining industry and our version of the Tea Party.

    Pip, I agree with you. If, instead of warmongering, The Toxic Twig had used his 2 terms in office to address the needs of the 99%, instead of the top 1%, they would be in a far better position.

  30. When the West has had a massive transfer of income from the lower echelons to the top few, something has to give.

    There is no proof that lower taxes and fewer services lead to a stronger economy.

    If this was the case, the USA would be a thriving economy.

    I believe it is not how much one spends that counts, it is how it is spent.

  31. “toxic bushes”…”toxic twig”…the late hours become you, Pip and Jane !

    Migs, like Oceania and Eurasia the US is always at war.

    Their far flung garrisons guard their markets and their access to resources. They’re the retail arm of their giant military-industrial complex.

    From the point of view of orthodox economics I daresay the US addiction to war is good for their economy. A bit like Keynes’ oft quoted reference to burying 5 pound bank notes and letting the unemployed dig them up when things are tough.

    But he also said it would be better if that effort was put into more constructive pursuits like building public housing (that always gets edited out).

    From my understanding of how a monetary economy works, it is not an issue of money cost, but the cost in “real” things: labour, materials, physical resources etc. And there is no doubt those resources could’ve been directed to better uses.

    Sadly, like pavlovian dogs, the 99% snap to attention and form up in ranks at the first strains of the star spangled banner or a glimpse of old glory. And that’s the just way the 1% like things. God and Country and all that. The yanks have a bad dose.

    Pip: “…and their debt and deficit would be manageable !”…

    I know this sounds crazy (with a background of near hysteria in the US surrounding the issue) but it is just not a problem as the US is sovereign in its own currency. The so-called debt (the issuing of bonds equal to the budget deficit) is a mere convention, a relic of the old gold standard days.

    The convention is retained because it serves a political purpose. Same in Oz.

    When the punters tumble to this fiction, the conservatives will lose control of the political agenda and “public purpose” will become the metric by which policy is judged, rather than some contrived artifact of accounting.

  32. Another book to put on my must read list:

    “Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace” (How we got to be so hated) by Gore Vidal.

    Gore talks about the 200 acts of war and military incursions by the US since 1945.

  33. My, you South Aussie ladies are up late.

    We breed ‘em tough here, Migs. :D

    CU @3.13am, the contrary would be true, imo. The only ones who really benefit from lower taxes and fewer services are the top 1%, because they require fewer of the types of services which are inevitably cut by Tea Party type governments. eg social security, public health services etc.

    I don’t know whether US governments are genetically disposed to “bigger” government which caters more to middle and lower income groups.

    US business most certainly isn’t. Dig beneath the surface and I reckon there’s a slave owner lurking.

    Their far flung garrisons guard their markets and their access to resources. They’re the retail arm of their giant military-industrial complex.

    MJ, the similarities with the Roman Empire are quite striking, MJ Or any other expansionist empire, I suppose. The military budget gobbles up the cash at an alarming rate and ultimately destroys the empire.

    Sadly, like pavlovian dogs, the 99% snap to attention and form up in ranks at the first strains of the star spangled banner or a glimpse of old glory. And that’s the just way the 1% like things. God and Country and all that. The yanks have a bad dose.

    Which is the end result of religious zealots establishing a new country and government, imo.The much vaunted Puritan fathers (nb. Puritan mothers don’t get a guernsey) have spawned the multitude of protestant sects and are the basis for a lot of the weird cults and paramilitary groups which infest the US more than any other country on the planet, I think.

    Unfortunately, through the machinations of the Rodentochracy we’re seeing it get a toe hold in this country. The reasons for espousing this toxic brew are an entirely cynical exercise to gain and maintain power by the Liars Party for their scaly mates in agribusinesses. Certain miners spring to mind.

    And of course this is where the ghastly Emperor Rupert and his propagandists in arms have been most useful, convincing the politically naive that voting against their best interests is in their best interests. You only have to look at the health care initiatives Obama tried to implement in the US, to see it in blatant action.

    MJ, hopefully the media enquiry here will bear fruit, resulting in an msm which reports the facts truthfully, honestly and without bias.

    It may happen anyway, despite the Emperor’s last bitter struggles to maintain his grip on the Tea Party propaganda machine. His empire is starting to crumble as is his power and influence in the UK and the US and as it inevitably will here, his last bastion.

    It will take quite a while to remove the last vestiges of Tea Party influence from political parties, particularly the Liars Party, its natural home, but I think it can be achieved and that our political landscape will be return to a position where

    “public purpose” will become the metric by which policy is judged, rather than some contrived artifact of accounting.

    MJ, thank you for that enlightening comment.

  34. Overthrow: America’s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq by Stephen Kinzer.

    For example I didn’t know that the US used military force (landed troops) to take over Hawaii, and that was done to protect a wealthy US plantation owner who was exploiting the Hawaiians and destroying the environment.

  35. Mangrove Jack,

    Pip: “…and their debt and deficit would be manageable !”…

    I know this sounds crazy (with a background of near hysteria in the US surrounding the issue) but it is just not a problem as the US is sovereign in its own currency. The so-called debt (the issuing of bonds equal to the budget deficit) is a mere convention, a relic of the old gold standard days.

    The convention is retained because it serves a political purpose. Same in Oz.

    Thanks for this, I thought sovereign risk meant that a government couldn’t pay it’s debts.

  36. ME, you have to protect your loyal upstanding citizens trying to eke out a meagre living in the face of terrible hardships and wicked natives on exorbitant salaries.

    That’s why Cuba has been under the gun for the last 60 odd years. They tried landing troops at the Bay of Pigs, well Cuban landed gentry who’d fled the Castro regime, to restore proper governance by the Battistas and the Mafia, but got booted out by the Cuban people.

  37. [q]Thanks for this, I thought sovereign risk meant that a government couldn’t pay it’s debts.[/q]

    That’s exactly correct Pip, but these days it only applies to governments that have foolishly borrowed in a currency other than their own.

    The debts of those European states (Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, Spain…and now France) we’re all so concerned about are effectively in a “foreign” currency (the euro), and that’s what creates the problem.

    That doesn’t stop Abbott et al (and the financial commentariat) from seamlessly conflating the European situation with ours to score cheap political points.

    It tells me that they are either stupid, ignorant, liars, or all of the above.

  38. “Stupid, ignorant, liars”.

    One would hope a great unknown force intervenes to prevent that lot from running this country. Lying might cover up the stupidity, but it still bubbles away underneath.

  39. Mangrove, Bacchus pointed me to the ‘How To’ tab at the top of this page for tips on how to do quotes. I have found it very helpful.

  40. Thanks for passing that on Roswell.

    You’d think the code would know what I meant by [q] !

    It’d be nice if WordPress had a preview button.

    One would hope a great unknown force intervenes to prevent that lot from running this country. Lying might cover up the stupidity, but it still bubbles away underneath.

    A great unknown force. I like that. I’d even welcome divine intervention but I suspect that would be counter-productive…I understand God is on their side.

  41. CU, I suspect that this is up to the individual. I have seen religion and of course religion is not to be confused with god, provide a lot of comfort to those with terminal illnesses. I’ve also seen it (religion) do a lot of damage.

    I don’t think that I could presume to tell people whether or not belief is a good or a bad thing, here I am talking about an innate belief in something unknowable.

  42. Thank you Miglo. I believe that belated birthday wishes are in order. I often enjoyed having a chat with your contributor Roswell. It was nice to arrive and see him still here.

  43. Min, I am not decrying religion. If it gives comfort to people, so be it.

    It has been my experience that it is more likely to create guilt in many.

    We can get comfort, believe from one another, that is also worthwhile.

    The hugs and comforted that was given to all involved in that terrible fire this week is evidence of that.

    Surely we do not need belief in a god, to care for one another.

    I do not feel the need for a god, but I find it hard to live in an uncivil society.

  44. Yet CU, there is always a certain spiritualism involved in all societies. I would no sooner call for example, an indigenous community’s belief in spirit just superstitious nonsense nor would I call a christian’s belief’s superstitious nonsense. It’s up to the individual to decide, some believe some don’t but I certainly would never presume to dictate whether anyone’s belief is ‘wrong’.

  45. I subscribe to the growing belief that there might be more than one universe; an idea introduced here by Roswell some weeks ago. Some astronomers believe this is highly likely; that other big bangs produced other universes whose distance is that great that their light has not yet reached us, and may never will.

    What would creationists think of that? How would they use God to explain it?

  46. My pleasure Miglo.

    There could easily be multiple universes and it still doesn’t detract from the fact that it remains a part of creation. The argument that there cannot be a god/creator reminds me of the argument of when it was discovered that the earth was not flat. Heresy they screamed! If this is so, then there cannot be a God.

    I believe that human knowledge is only at the edge of what we know or what we think we know and that there are many other worlds still to be explored and only the most obvious of these are those which we can see with the use of the naked eye or a highly powered telescope.

  47. Nimue, I read the other day, that most believe the world was not flat, that was not the problem.

    The belief that the earth went around the sun, not the other way about cause many problems.

  48. Catching up,
    You are of course correct. According to some christian theologian the earth had to be the center of the universe and all else was heresy. For if Jesus was born on a small planet called the earth then it must follow that we are the center of the universe. Who is not to say that there weren’t 1,000,000 Jesus equivalents on who knows how many distant worlds. And just maybe all of them are the son of God. I think that as long as the human mind can imagine it, then it is likely to be so..such is the vastness of the Universe.

  49. Why do we need a god?

    Catching up, I don’t believe that we do. As Newton, and later Marx said: “God didn’t create man. Man created God”.

  50. Miglo, I am inclined to agree with you.

    Most civilisations since the history of man as we know it, all seem to have some type of god or gods.

    I can only think this is because man has a need and seeks meaning of everything.

    When no meaning is available, they create a god to fill the void.

    As we gain more knowledge and have come to understand the world around us, the need for a god appears to have abated.

    This just a notion I have.

    Maybe we need a god to help us cope with what we do not understand.

    How did we start talikg about whether there is a god or not.

    Maybe it is a part of the new world order, whether god is needed or plays a part at all.

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